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On May 12 2010 22:57 muzzy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 22:53 kickinhead wrote:On May 12 2010 22:43 muzzy wrote:
Good job implementing it... but I am glad that Blizz decided against copying the BW mechanic. This is SC2. why do people keep saying that? it's SC2, but does that mean it has to be simpler and less fun to play and watch? That's a matter of opinion. I find SC2 infinitely less frustrating to play. I'm not going to get into a whole debate about this, as it's been done countless times before. Having said that, Blizzard obviously agrees with those of us in the "This is not BW" camp.
Whats your problem? Blizzards "camp" is "re-imagining BW" (their own words). Why would you ever re-imagine it without fast paced rewarding micro?
Who would want a slower, more boring game just to make their own lives easier? Why would you shoot down something that could make the game more fun and more fast paced? I would love to see units, ANY units, be able to do more things like shoot while moving etc. It looks ten times more fluid and impressive. You get a sense of pace and urgency when you watch play like that. It seems like anyone who is against at least exploring things like this for SC2 are just scared they wont be able to execute it, or defend it, and theyll be back to where they were at D- just like BW. Im not a great player at all, but muta micro aint impossible to do decently. People should get over being afraid to put things in the game that only high level players will use anyways. The league and division system should already be doing its job to separate skill groups. A novice should never have to deal with high level muta micro if the matchmaking system works.
I hope blizzard reads this and implements it.
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Sorry but that looks dumb - Blizzard hit it right from a design perspective.
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On May 13 2010 01:12 gogogadgetflow wrote:
Sorry but that looks dumb - Blizzard hit it right from a design perspective.
Yeah. Because design perspective mattered so much to us gamers.
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On May 13 2010 01:12 gogogadgetflow wrote:
Sorry but that looks dumb - Blizzard hit it right from a design perspective.
how so?........
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Too many want Muta stacking simply because it was in BW, did you actually think about WHY you want it? It was a bug in BW.
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On May 13 2010 01:18 Catch]22 wrote:
Too many want Muta stacking simply because it was in BW, did you actually think about WHY you want it? It was a bug in BW.
Stacking air units gave more control to the player.
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On May 13 2010 01:18 Catch]22 wrote:
Too many want Muta stacking simply because it was in BW, did you actually think about WHY you want it? It was a bug in BW.
1) it's more interesting to watch
2) It's more fun to play
3) It's more demanding and hightens skillevel-possibilities, which is essential for a game to be fun on a high competetive level in the long run.
4) Micro like that made it possible to develop different playstyles, because there is a constant tension between micro and macro throughout the game.
5) It allows for Units to be effective not only in straight-up-battles but also in harrassment-situations.
enough?
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To be honest I don't see how this is a significant improvement over what you can already do. All it does for me is prove that the game looks worse with this implementation as the movement is very inorganic. You can micro just fine right now without stacking. People need to shut up and stop bitching and learn how to work with the game as it is.
In addition, this is why stacking was important in BW but isn't needed in SC2:
In BW, units did not behave very cohesively. If you had a group of unstacked mutalisks and tried to attack an scv, half of them wouldn't fire. Stacking allowed for precise and controlled burst fire from a group of mutalisks. This allowed you to poke in for a shot to kill a marine or scv or templar. It made micro vs scourge possible because your muta would actually accelerate and fire at the same time so you could avoid having one of them getting hit.
In SC2, units behave a lot more cohesively. Because of the fluidity of the game, mutalisks will attack as a group even when spread out. There is no reason to be stacked because your mutalisks will behave pretty much the same without it. It's very easy to dive in and take a shot at a worker or marine and bounce back. I do it all the time. It just doesn't look as pretty as the perfect stack in BW.
Stacking had a side benefit and cost: Stacking kept all your units in 1 place spreading damage over the stack more randomly. It was also much easier to avoid things like static defense and marines since you could keep them all precisely out of range. The cost of course is splash damage vulnerability. Irradiate, storm, archons, corsairs - all decimate stacked mutas because the splash is so effective. In SC2 if mutas were stacked 1 thor could wipe out an entire clump in seconds. 1 archon would murder mutalisks. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, but it's the tradeoff blizzard made.
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Sorry for the wait, youtube took a while. Also I accidentally posted v0.1 as 0.2 just for a sec there by accident, which is maybe why the above post is there, im not sure.
v0.2 is up now, all criticisms accepted.
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It seems you have done it.
I need to ask you though. How does it feel controlling those mutalisks?
Upload the map while you're at it 
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On May 13 2010 01:36 lolaloc wrote:It seems you have done it. I need to ask you though. How does it feel controlling those mutalisks? Upload the map while you're at it
Sweet although I think it still needs a bit of work, I think its a tad more sluggish than SC1, not attack-move wise but general movement wise. Although I would need someone who has had a lot of experience with SC1 muta micro to really work out what needs tweaking. Anyways Ill try practicing muta micro in SC1 and see what can be changed. Later ill post the modifications, there's not that many.
The map is Fighting Spirit by prodiG, there is credit to him at the bottom of my OP  You can download it in the starcraft 2 map thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=122171
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errrr... I was talking about the map with all the Mutalisk modifications already done.
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was it just me or were they spread out almost the whole time?
i think the best way to fix muta control in sc2 would just to remove the spread out mechanic for them. u know how air units spread after u have clumped them
might just work if u remove the air collision for them but then u would be able to stack X mutas + 1 other unit without any bugs
1s im gonna try this in the editor :p
edit: ah ye that worked perfectly. rofl mutas look so funny stacked. this was really fun to micro
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On May 13 2010 01:26 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 01:18 Catch]22 wrote:
Too many want Muta stacking simply because it was in BW, did you actually think about WHY you want it? It was a bug in BW. 1) it's more interesting to watch 2) It's more fun to play 3) It's more demanding and hightens skillevel-possibilities, which is essential for a game to be fun on a high competetive level in the long run. 4) Micro like that made it possible to develop different playstyles, because there is a constant tension between micro and macro throughout the game. 5) It allows for Units to be effective not only in straight-up-battles but also in harrassment-situations. enough?
Most of that could be said about stacking siege tanks aswell. Try to make points that aren't moot.
It is interesting to watch because players might not know how many tanks are stacked. It could be fun because you could heavily defend an area, it is more demanding than NOT bugging out the tanks, etc.
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On May 13 2010 01:46 lolaloc wrote:
errrr... I was talking about the map with all the Mutalisk modifications already done.
OH lol sorry my bad, must be my tiredness, I have been staying up doing an assignment and doing this (yeah its been a bit of a distraction). 
Ill post it in a minute.
On May 13 2010 01:47 MorroW wrote:
was it just me or were they spread out almost the whole time?
i think the best way to fix muta control in sc2 would just to remove the spread out mechanic for them. u know how air units spread after u have clumped them
might just work if u remove the air collision for them but then u would be able to stack X mutas + 1 other unit without any bugs
1s im gonna try this in the editor :p
edit: ah ye that worked perfectly. rofl mutas look so funny stacked. this was really fun to micro
I have 0 collision radius set, they spread out after using patrol and you have to regroup them. I think attack-move might fix this though.
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I hardly ever use mutalisks in sc2 because their micro/stacking is so worthless compared to their brood war counterpart. Really, if you're trying to go the whole "this isn't Brood War" route, you're actually supporting how terrible the muta micro in sc2 is, not how different it is.
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United States20667 Posts
On May 13 2010 01:47 Catch]22 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 01:26 kickinhead wrote:On May 13 2010 01:18 Catch]22 wrote:
Too many want Muta stacking simply because it was in BW, did you actually think about WHY you want it? It was a bug in BW. 1) it's more interesting to watch 2) It's more fun to play 3) It's more demanding and hightens skillevel-possibilities, which is essential for a game to be fun on a high competetive level in the long run. 4) Micro like that made it possible to develop different playstyles, because there is a constant tension between micro and macro throughout the game. 5) It allows for Units to be effective not only in straight-up-battles but also in harrassment-situations. enough? Most of that could be said about stacking siege tanks aswell. Try to make points that aren't moot. It is interesting to watch because players might not know how many tanks are stacked. It could be fun because you could heavily defend an area, it is more demanding than NOT bugging out the tanks, etc.
Conceptually, air units stacking makes some sense - ground units stacking does not.
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hopefully blizzard will see this and take a hint
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lol new vid, this looks ridiculously strong
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What do you hope to gain from making this?
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EPT
