EPTNow that we have seen the power of the map editor, I think the joke Pro Mod will actually be made a reality at some point in time (whether its made by team liquid or someone else)
Mutalisk Micro with Galaxy Editor - Page 9
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
Now that we have seen the power of the map editor, I think the joke Pro Mod will actually be made a reality at some point in time (whether its made by team liquid or someone else) | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
On May 12 2010 20:23 MadLag wrote: how to embarass blizard with their own tool part 2 ;D QFT, the fact that they removed muta micro still irks me to this day. With the phoenix and thor changes, and how marines and missile turrets are WAY better, they should really consider bringing back the moving shot for mutalisks. | ||
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shreepy
United States121 Posts
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Ideas
United States8182 Posts
On May 14 2010 06:54 shreepy wrote: Blizzard definitely showed that they are willing to add more micro intensive changes with their recent changes to phoenixes. Hopefully this, and other people doing similar things, gives the proper nudging to blizzard for some similar changes to other bland units. Personally, I would love the return of the old muta stacking. when you say "micro intensive", do you mean "auto-micro"? seriously phoenix micro is still a joke lol. (not really directed at you but) IT SHOOTS BY ITSELF YOU JUST HAVE TO TELL IT TO MOVE. Blizzard, that's not adding in micro at all, that's having the units micro themselves. If they shot backwards with proper control (such as telling them to a-move backwards and then telling them to move forwards again really quick) then that would be micro. but just having to tell them to move is so lame. | ||
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moon`
United States372 Posts
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SiNiquity
United States734 Posts
Got my hopes up thinking there was an actual update  | ||
STS17
United States1817 Posts
The game doesn’t need glitches and bugs to be entertaining to watch, not to mention there hasn’t been 12 years of nerds trying to find creative plays in SC2 yet so most of the potential of the game hasn’t even been discovered yet. Sure there are things you can’t do that you used to be able to do but there is a whole plethora of things you can do that you couldn’t do before. | ||
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eNoq
Netherlands502 Posts
On May 12 2010 21:00 Catch]22 wrote: How are HSM a good counter? It will only hit if the zerg forgets about his mutas. Storm is way too small to be a reliable defense atm, and dont even get me started on archons. No corsairs, shitty storm, shitty archons, no irradiates are all things that you need to consider. If you could stack mutas in regular 1on1 right now, you would need to improve the other races ability to fight mutas. storm rapes clumped up mutas, micro'd phoenixes do tons of damage, and i'm pretty sure archon hits still hurt on stacked mutas. | ||
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
still, being a zerg player this is fckin awesome | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 26 2010 02:00 shawster wrote: it kinda bugs me that mutas in your editor can still move backwards while shooting. in sc` they could only move to the direction they're facing. still, being a zerg player this is fckin awesome I've recently been doing 2 port wraith and wraith/muta ums maps, and this is one thing I'm trying to do but it has been quite a hassle. You are right that (right-click/patrol) moving shot should only work in the way the unit is facing, otherwise its stop shot. But note that you can do a moving backshot in BW by patrolling on the stack. Perfect emulation of BW micro I think will be impossible, but it still worth a shot to see how close we can get. On June 26 2010 00:41 STS17 wrote: What I don’t understand, any maybe someone can explain this to me, is why people seem to demand that bugs and other programming mishaps be intentionally added to the game. Muta-stacking was a bug, a flaw in the engine. Yes, it led to extremely exciting plays but people seem to think that exciting plays can’t happen without these things. There are many units which are infinitely more effective when micro’d properly in SC2, the Reaper, Hellion, Regen/Burrow Roach and Blink Stalker come to mind immediately. The game doesn’t need glitches and bugs to be entertaining to watch, not to mention there hasn’t been 12 years of nerds trying to find creative plays in SC2 yet so most of the potential of the game hasn’t even been discovered yet. Sure there are things you can’t do that you used to be able to do but there is a whole plethora of things you can do that you couldn’t do before. Its not a bug in BW, stacking works by breaking the magic box of which is an intentional feature. This is the same in SC2, stacking still works but because of how acceleration and deceleration is handled differently, clicking close to the unit will make them move very slowly, and without moving shot it becomes quite useless. The way everything works in SC2 leads me to think that "fixing" stacking was not on the minds of Blizzard developers when they wrote the code. The physics code is just completely different and it just so happens that it makes stacking a lot harder. On June 25 2010 23:34 SiNiquity wrote: Heeyyy haven't seen this thread in awhile. Got my hopes up thinking there was an actual update Haha I'm surprised this is still alive, I'm happy that it is though. I'm still working on it but progress is slow and I'm unable to test it anymore due to BattleNet being down. I have done some games with moving shot and other re-balances and seriously moving shot has made the game way more fun and it doesn't feel imbalanced in the slightest. | ||
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
BTW, do you happen to have something similar for the Hellion? I noticed that you didn't upload it yet. I was figuring out how to change it, since there's a huge delay before the Hellion gets in range and actually attacks. EDIT: You made it, but didn't upload it. All air units seem to decelerate before attacking their target. I dunno if this is hard-coded or not, but I'm trying to figure out how to get a unit to fire before decelerating, although those actors look so complex... EDIT: I tried lowering the "Backswing" for the weapons of various units. If it actually did what it says it does, I think we would get better results, but alas... | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
The way you do it is set the deceleration to about 2.5 and acceleration to whatever you think is necessary, like 3.25 for muta i think, and set the attack type (whatever its called) to slowing, the legacy and attacking flags you can muck around with too and do a bunch of different things. You then set the damage point to 0, and voila you have microable units. The next milestone from here on is to change the behaviour of units so that they move while shooting only in the facing direction, I'm still experimenting. About uploading my mods. My mod has changed heaps since then but I never bothered uploading it. Now that release has come out, the mod is all messed up and I have to start over, theres a whole bunch of new restrictions in place as well that weren't in BETA such as not being able to replace unit sounds/music in mod files anymore, I'm still raging and haven't done a lot since release. | ||
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
The Hellion is alot more responsive this way. There's no longer a huge delay from it getting in range after moving to it firing. I also unticked "Only Fire while attacking" under the legacy options. I don't know if that effects anything though. In the map you made, you made a different mutalisk weapon that you didn't link to the mutalisk. (Or retail editor messed stuff up). It had the "Acquire Prioritization" set to "Angle". I might experiment with all that angle stuff. Custom sounds/music? Are you talking about in the editor, or not being able to upload onto Bnet? 'Coz I'm pretty sure I saw some people get rickrolled trying to play a Dota map. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
 Damage point means at what percentage through the animation before shooting. Acquire Prioritization set to angle means that the unit will opt to go for the enemy in range that matches its current facing direction, rather than the closest enemy unit. "Fire While Attacking" set to off, will put it into SC2 Phoenix mode, where you don't actually have to use attack-move for the unit to shoot at an enemy. Range slop means that if a unit is in range and then moves away, if the unit is in the process of attacking, it will still attack the unit if in range + slop. Arc means that a unit doesn't have to directly face the enemy to shoot, for example, you could make a mutalisk shoot out its arse without turning if you wanted to. Arc slop is the same as range-slop but for arc. Random delay doesn't do a lot, it is virtually unnoticeable. Backswing I think I tested it to be the time given to the attack animation to execute. You can have your attack type to slowing, or moving, but it doesn't do a whole lot if you don't have deceleration because you still end up stopping for a bit. Even Mutas in vanilla SC2 have the legacy flag set not to decelerate while shooting and damage point set to 0, but because the deceleration isn't set, it ends up looking jerky and not very smooth. Basically deceleration is the key to having BW style attacking if you will. For example With this, I actually have my damage point set to 0.1 (or something like that, I'm on my Linux box so I can't check right now). This is because Mutas don't flick shot like vultures do, they actually move quite a bit in a straight-line before they shoot. However having deceleration set to 2.5, and the no deceleration legacy flag set to on and un-interruptible set to off, means that you are still in control of the Mutalisks at full speed while they move shot. Basically you want the Mutas to behave similarly while attacking and moving, not suddenly stop because you set it to move rather than attack-move, or your patrol didn't end up engaging a unit. Hope that helped.  | ||
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Kim_Hyun_Han
706 Posts
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
The mutalisk micro for moving shot part is almost perfect. It only shoots while moving if you are facing the right angle, if its stopped it will turn around and shoot. You can also patrol back-shot if you patrol close and then click away, which is what made wraiths viable vs scourge in BW, however because of the unlimited angles and movement points it looks a lot smoother in SC2. Mutas can do it too in BW, but you only ever see it in ZvZ. As for BW style stacking, I don't think its possible. All scripts are run server side, so that's not a possibility. All my "triggers" are done client-side using behaviours. There's no option to adjust separation radius at run-time either, so I can't create behaviours that do things like, "if selection > 12 then don't stack", or if "moving then stack". What really needs to be done for stacking, is an overhaul of the actual flying "mover" code. The problem is that the units clump together for a while, and then suddenly spring off each other. What needs to happen, is that the units should stack and very slowly move apart at a constant rate. | ||
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
It gives me an idea though. I might try switching from air-movement to ground-movement depending on the speed. I have a feeling I tried this before and it wasn't possible, but ill have a look again. Thanks. | ||
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