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On May 12 2010 22:57 muzzy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 22:53 kickinhead wrote:On May 12 2010 22:43 muzzy wrote:
Good job implementing it... but I am glad that Blizz decided against copying the BW mechanic. This is SC2. why do people keep saying that? it's SC2, but does that mean it has to be simpler and less fun to play and watch? That's a matter of opinion. I find SC2 infinitely less frustrating to play. I'm not going to get into a whole debate about this, as it's been done countless times before. Having said that, Blizzard obviously agrees with those of us in the "This is not BW" camp.
Less frustraging meaning easier?
Well - that's for sure the spirit to go about developing the next big thing in eSports. ^^'
I think it's incredibily important to bring back very demanding micro and for all ppl saying SC2 has enough Micro and WC3 being more microintensiv than SCBW - have you ever spent hours upon hours in micromaps training MutaMicro, Wraithmicro or stuff like that in SC2 or WC3? No, cuz micro in SCBW was just different than the IMHO boring ability-based and single-unit-control in big-battles type of micro...
And this is what made SCBW so popular, so why remove sth from the game that made the predecessor so good?
I really think ppl opposed to micro like that just wanna take the easy road and are afraid that SC2 would become to complex for them to play well - but all players would have the same "problems" - it's all about adapting and learning this stuff.
And noone can claim that MutaMicro wouldn't make SC2 more interesting to watch and it would be another thing that could seperate good from very good players.
I just can't take ppl serious that don't want stuff like that implemented, they really appear to me as ppl that don't wan't a game that's demanding but rather an easy and noob-friendly game. But ppl with those opinions won't ever be good at games like SC2 anyways - it's just a wrong approach to gaming on a high level, so what do those ppl even care about the game being more difficult to play?
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Good news, after getting advice from Lalush (on how muta micro works) I managed to get move while shooting, and it only attacks when you use patrol or attack-move.
Also the rotation/speed and everything else is back to normal. So it slows if you just A-move or don't do anything, and takes a while to accelerate to full speed. If you move after shooting you are still in control while shooting, but you have to keep right clicking if you wanna maintain speed.
It was a little easier than I thought, I always like to go for simple rather than complex. The less changes to make this happen the better.
Although its a little too easy right now, I hope to make it a bit more challenging  Also if you have any tests you wanna try out feel free to give me a bell, as I'm no guru on muta micro in SC1. Ill try and find ways to make it work.
I will perform Lalush's tests in motion in the next vid, hopefully they are what you guys want. I don't really know, help me out guys .
I'm waiting till I'm in offpeak time before I upload (yes life can be tough in the aussie land ).
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this is not the same mutas as in BW they move the stop shot and just accelerate really fast. In BW they move shot and never decelerate and if the do stop they accelerate really slow and thats why you had to always keep your mutas on the move.
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Is there a possibility to try out Muta VS Scourge-Micro? I don't know whether the SC1-Units are already in the Galaxy-Editor, but I heard they would be...
I'd really like to see how Scourges behave in SC2 and whether Muta VS Scourge would be as hard and complex as in SCBW.
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Only the models are there (I saw spidermine), the units aren't there yet. They may be added in the release.
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On May 12 2010 23:47 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Only the models are there (I saw spidermine), the units aren't there yet. They may be added in the release.
Okay - I'm looking forward to a Pro-mod with all the Units in them! ^^'
I guess I'd mainly be using SCBW-Units if sth lke that would be possible, because they are more versatile, funnier to play and all-around there are just better builds possible.
And with Attack-move-micro, stuff like Scourges wouldn't be as imba as if they'd just be implemented with the current crappy Air-Unit-controls.
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Wow man, this is great.
But I'm scarry about blizzard not implementing this knid of stuff. The engine allow it, so come on guys !
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On May 12 2010 21:26 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 20:59 TeWy wrote:On May 12 2010 20:23 MadLag wrote:
how to embarass blizard with their own tool part 2 ;D I don't know whether or not you are ironic, but I'm kind of chocked by the fact that some people seem to believe that Blizzard engineers and technicians aren't qualified/intelligent enough to create an IRC like chat channel nor figure out what would happen after tweaking the stats of an unit. I think you'd be very surprised.
yeah definitely, i would then say. "how come they haven't implemented it yet" some people would answer, "it's still in the beta, we'll know when it's released" but i really dunno about that.. but i guess we'll have to wait and see how qualified and intelligent they are
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i did this aswell
it's as simple as changing the "seperation radius" from 0.5 to 0 in the map editor. allowing them to stack.
no other changes need to be made at all you can move forward. hit stop and click back and your mutas will act exactly like they would in brood war
the only difference is the attack range. SC2 muta attack range is really really short. i guess it was in Brood War but the stacking and hold position bug thing extended their range quite a bit.
anyway. it really wouldn't be viable, limits are needed. if you could make it so it needs an overlord/whatever in the group and that it will only stack with a certain number of mutalisks (so you can't stack 200 of them) then ok maybe.
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Calgary26004 Posts
Stacking and hold position never extended Muta range in Brood War.
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On May 12 2010 23:57 Sephy69 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 21:26 Boonbag wrote:On May 12 2010 20:59 TeWy wrote:On May 12 2010 20:23 MadLag wrote:
how to embarass blizard with their own tool part 2 ;D I don't know whether or not you are ironic, but I'm kind of chocked by the fact that some people seem to believe that Blizzard engineers and technicians aren't qualified/intelligent enough to create an IRC like chat channel nor figure out what would happen after tweaking the stats of an unit. I think you'd be very surprised. yeah definitely, i would then say. "how come they haven't implemented it yet" some people would answer, "it's still in the beta, we'll know when it's released" but i really dunno about that.. but i guess we'll have to wait and see how qualified and intelligent they are
I know its entirely possible for them, but i think its because
1. They don't know what we are talking about
2. Its not a high priority for them
Again this is just a stab in the dark. If enough people complain though, I'm sure they'll make the adjustment just like the phoenix. I just think they need some guidance (I mean the phoenix change isn't exactly what we intended).
One of the goals of this thread is to break the communication barrier between team liquid and blizzard, which I think is part of the problem. (again not sure)
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wow guys, it would be way to imbalance if sc2 had stacked mutas that acted like sc1 mutas, cant u guys see? ok
so in sc1 we would all see just 11 mutas rape a terran base and sometimes even kill the terran, it was gg to watch this happening with 11 mutas.
but in sc2 there is infinite stack, imagine if you had 30 mutas that could stack and attack the same way as in sc1, that would be so imbalanced, so you see having mutas have a similar hold position attack would just make protoss's and terrans cry
(mostly quoted from idra)
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On May 13 2010 00:18 Sky.Technique wrote:
wow guys, it would be way to imbalance if sc2 had stacked mutas that acted like sc1 mutas, cant u guys see? ok
so in sc1 we would all see just 11 mutas rape a terran base and sometimes even kill the terran, it was gg to watch this happening with 11 mutas.
but in sc2 there is infinite stack, imagine if you had 30 mutas that could stack and attack the same way as in sc1, that would be so imbalanced, so you see having mutas have a similar hold position attack would just make protoss's and terrans cry
(mostly quoted from idra)
Imagine if the Terran had some Thors which he would most likely have.
Imagine if the Protoss had some Archons or Templars for storm which he would most likely have.
Now don't bring up the BS that Muta rush would be imba. If you weren't expecting it you would lose whether it was stacked or not.
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ok, im not gonna argue, just realize your basically arguing with idra who is the best zerg player in the world at sc2
^_^
btw, archons and storm arent NEARLY as good in sc2 as they are iin sc1
and vs thors you can treat them like corsairs in sc1 and just spread, since thors only rape stacked mutas because of their splash
lolz
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On May 13 2010 00:18 Sky.Technique wrote:
wow guys, it would be way to imbalance if sc2 had stacked mutas that acted like sc1 mutas, cant u guys see? ok
so in sc1 we would all see just 11 mutas rape a terran base and sometimes even kill the terran, it was gg to watch this happening with 11 mutas.
but in sc2 there is infinite stack, imagine if you had 30 mutas that could stack and attack the same way as in sc1, that would be so imbalanced, so you see having mutas have a similar hold position attack would just make protoss's and terrans cry
(mostly quoted from idra)
Or we could ignore all this fluff and make a fun game with versatile, responsive and skill-intensive units and balance the game around that instead of dumbing down everything with a skill curve to them in an attempt to have balance in every conceivable situation. Balancing a game around attack move (and also making sure that attack move is your only option) doesn't sound like the sort of balance I'd want.
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I'd like to see an updated video with your new changes, though I agree with the "imba" sentiment, if you need to alter every anti-air aoe in the game to accommodate muta stacking then maybe it's the muta stacking that needs to be changed.
I heard in the single player there is an upgrade that makes your missile turrets gain aoe (or switch modes between aoe / armour piercing) That would be an interesting counter..
sc2 needs more units that gain a lot(!) of effectiveness when micro'd, like the Reaper. Kills Zealots when micro'd, doesn't when not micro'd.
I could imagine a bunch of upgrades for units/buildings that would only be useful in pro play, so that high and low level games would play even more differently..
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the problem lies with the infinite select not with what you are spewing
but this isnt bw, this is a different game, so Ha.
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anyway. it really wouldn't be viable, limits are needed. if you could make it so it needs an overlord/whatever in the group and that it will only stack with a certain number of mutalisks (so you can't stack 200 of them) then ok maybe.
This is not a problem. You can handle this with splash damages.
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On May 13 2010 00:37 Sky.Technique wrote:
the problem lies with the infinite select not with what you are spewing
but this isnt bw, this is a different game, so Ha.
Different game that doesn't require micro, interesting units or a skill curve? Is this what your argument is supposed to be?
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i really want to see SC2 being played by pros, using a mod to allow the things blizzard removed
kinda bitch slap on the face
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EPT
