EPTMutalisk Micro with Galaxy Editor - Page 3
| Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games |
|
eNoq
Netherlands502 Posts
| ||
|
LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
Is there really NO way that mutas can be controlled while firing and still in motion? I honestly don't think it can be done in SC2's engine unless you let the units acquire targets automatically while moving (the way blizzard "fixed" moving shot with the phoenix). It's impressive that you improved muta micro, but they still come to a full stop before they respond to your next command (which is to turn around and move in the other direction). Albeit you certainly made it less noticeable. What I miss from BW is that units actually responded to your commands while still in motion (gliding). Looked alot more fluid. Despite your tweaks the mutas don't actually respond to your commands while firing. They execute their firing animation (which you've shortened along with lots of other things you've tweaked), and only afterwards respond to your next command. | ||
|
baeracaed
United States604 Posts
Cool video though man, looking forward to what else you can cook up. | ||
|
Mellotron
United States329 Posts
| ||
|
sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On May 12 2010 21:30 LaLuSh wrote: It looks pretty much the same to me. The mutas still have to come to a full stop before firing the glaives. Only thing you've done is increase the speed, acceleration and lower the turning animation. Is there really NO way that mutas can be controlled while firing and still in motion? I honestly don't think it can be done in SC2's engine unless you let the units acquire targets automatically while moving (the way blizzard "fixed" moving shot with the phoenix). It's impressive that you improved muta micro, but they still come to a full stop before they respond to your next command (which is to turn around and move in the other direction). Albeit you made it less noticeable. Do you think so? If you watch the whole vid there are some attacks which I do right which they don't seem to stop, but ill take your word for it. EDIT: Oh regarding the moving back thing, ill try forward moving attacks more next time, but the last attack I did in the vid might be kinda like what you are looking for? Anyway ill focus on that from now I hope the change to backswing and delay on the weapon made a difference too  Ill keep trying, maybe switch it back to slowing, lower the decel and make sure it targets before it fires by experimenting with the flags (glaive wurm weapon). I've only spent like 10 mins on it, at the start I just maxed out some values to see what would happen and then worked from there, so I hope that it will eventually be possible. Cheers | ||
|
Fizban140
Korea (South)129 Posts
I think you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and you are basing your claims on nothing factual. In fact until you prove otherwise that is exactly how it is. | ||
|
LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On May 12 2010 21:35 sluggaslamoo wrote: Do you think so? If you watch the whole vid there are some attacks which I do right which they don't seem to stop, but ill take your word for it. Ill keep trying, maybe switch it back to slowing, lower the decel and make sure it targets before it fires by experimenting with the flags (glaive wurm weapon). I've only spent like 10 mins on it, at the start I just maxed out some values to see what would happen and then worked from there, so I hope that it will eventually be possible. Cheers It looks alot better man. I really appreciate the work you've put into this. But it's just that I don't know if you actually improved muta micro or if you merely shortened the animations and boosted speed/acceleration to make it less noticeable that mutas are still retarded. I'd like to ask you to run a test which I think displays how SC2 air micro differs from BW micro (to see if your tweaks actually changed what's been the underlying problem with the engine all along). 1. Move towards the SCVs the way you did in the video. 2. Use right click or patrol and try to have the mutas retain their forward motion while firing. 3. Immediately issue a move command 90 degrees either direction. Either up or down (since you're moving rightwards in the video). Possible results: 1. You fixed muta micro. The mutas respond to your move command and turn 90 degrees immediately without carrying out their entire gliding sequence. 2. You didn't fix muta micro. It's an engine issue which probably can't be fixed. You simply tweaked the settings so mutas accelerate to full speed after having come to a full stop (or that they simply turn 90 degrees only after their gliding sequence has finished). What was beautiful with BW micro was that the units never actually came to a full stop and that they were perfectly maneuverable in any direction the entire time while carrying out their animations. SC2 seems coded in such a way that they always have to carry out their animations before they return to being responsive again. The only time this issue is not noticeable in the SC2 engine is when you glide forward and then issue a move command in the same direction as you were gliding. It looks like a real moving shot, but the "test" I asked you to perform usually prooves it is not. You can't actually maneuver the unit while its in a gliding sequence, it becomes responsive first after it has carried out the gliding sequence. | ||
|
Sansucal
Germany259 Posts
| ||
|
ZergOwaR
Norway280 Posts
You dont actually think that you did something that baffles the coders at blizzard? the only reason it has not been in a patch (yet atleast) is that they might not want it, or atleast want to try other things first.It could actually be fun to not have one of the defining skills of a zerg player be "muta micro". I had the feel that pro zerg had macro, micro and MUTA micro. If your muta micro (again not micro, but muta micro) sucked you would never make it as a zerg player. yeah ok its cool and fun, but i hate the fact that it too often defined if you were good overall or not. (alot due to zvz i guess) and why was the muta micro so important? because in the hands of a noob with a attack, they died fast without doing damage to anything above one marine, while a pro could beat down a endless stream of marines backed with medics if he only have a small handful of mutas | ||
|
kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On May 12 2010 21:33 baeracaed wrote: Nice, but with unlimited control groups, a crap load of Mutas stacked on one tile and able to attack like that would be so damn strong. It would require a huge balance overhaul across the game. Cool video though man, looking forward to what else you can cook up. Would it really be that IMBA, because as the Mutas increase in numbers while stacking, splash-DMG just gets so much better and there are IMHO enough Units that do splash-dmg against Air or it could just be balanced: - Thor - HSM (dk how well it works against Mutas though...) - Archon - Fungal Growth - Storm I also think it wouldn't be a big deal to give stuff like Phoenix or Viking an AoE-attack or balance some skills to make them more useful against Mutas (maybe HSM when Mutas are jsut to fast make them accelerate to higher speed over a longer time so the Zerg would have to split the Mutas up or sth.) or just make AoE of Units like Archon/Thor stronger. Of course you could always balance the Mutas, which would be necessary, because as with all the Air-Units, Blizzard just tried to compensate the lack of control over the Units with higher firepower, longer range, more HP etc. Besides, just like in SCBW, there seems to be a point where Mutas just won't cut it anymore and you'll have to defend against a timing-attack, which can be hard with just Mutas, so you'll pretty much have to switch to another Unit-mix anyways, before you have like 40 Mutas in one Control-group. | ||
|
sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On May 12 2010 21:51 LaLuSh wrote: It looks alot better man. I really appreciate the work you've put into this. But it's just that I don't know if you actually improved muta micro or if you merely shortened the animations and boosted speed/acceleration to make it less noticeable that mutas are still retarded. I'd like to ask you to run a test which I think displays how SC2 air micro differs from BW micro (to see if your tweaks actually changed what's been the underlying problem with the engine all along). 1. Move towards the SCVs the way you did in the video. 2. Use right click or patrol and try to have the mutas retain their forward motion while firing. 3. Immediately issue a move command 90 degrees either direction. Either up or down (since you're moving rightwards in the video). Possible results: 1. You fixed muta micro. The mutas respond to your move command and turn 90 degrees immediately without carrying out their entire gliding sequence. 2. You didn't fix muta micro. It's an engine issue which probably can't be fixed. You simply tweaked the settings so mutas accelerate to full speed after having come to a full stop (or that they simply turn 90 degrees only after their gliding sequence has finished). What was beautiful with BW micro was that the units never actually came to a full stop and that they were perfectly maneuverable in any direction the entire time while carrying out their animations. SC2 seems coded in such a way that they always have to carry out their animations before they return to being responsive again. The only time this issue is not noticeable in the SC2 engine is when you glide forward and then issue a move command in the same direction as you were gliding. It looks like a real moving shot, but the "test" I asked you to perform usually prooves it is not. You can't actually maneuver the unit while its in a gliding sequence, it becomes responsive first after it has carried out the gliding sequence. Thanks for the examples, they should help out alot. No need to appreciate, the time spent is like nothing atm I just like to kid around Right now to be honest its mostly like you said, in the merely shortened the animations and boosted the accel/speed/decel. So muta micro is not fixed yet, hence the v0.1. Right now I could probably run this in my head and see that it may not live up to expectations right now. But I think that the tests are just what I need for improving this, and working out that the changes have made it better. Before I really had no direction. So thanks.  I don't think I will go jump off a cliff if i end up spending hours on it and it doesn't work out, but I think its way to early yet to assume that the engine is not capable of it. And I kinda hope for me and for others that it does work out, and then blizz will find some sort of compromise <<< Although that's probably a best case scenario right now I post the modifications up so that people can work off it, so then hopefully it might improve at a much faster rate, and we can come to a conclusion much quicker (whether it be bad or good). | ||
|
iSTime
1579 Posts
| ||
|
AmstAff
Germany949 Posts
| ||
|
sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On May 12 2010 22:07 PJA wrote: Has anyone thought that maybe it is already possible to do sick muta micro and we're just not good enough to do it yet? I find it hilarious that the op says "these are the numbers for normal speed, I will soon adjust for faster." The only thing you need to adjust for faster is YOUR ability. If it's possible on normal speed with those numbers, it's possible on faster also. What I mean is that the mutas will move RIDICULOUSLY fast. This is because at the time I couldn't be bothered to make "test map" default to faster so i just increased its speed | ||
|
muzzy
United States640 Posts
| ||
|
kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On May 12 2010 22:43 muzzy wrote: Good job implementing it... but I am glad that Blizz decided against copying the BW mechanic. This is SC2. why do people keep saying that? it's SC2, but does that mean it has to be simpler and less fun to play and watch? | ||
|
muzzy
United States640 Posts
On May 12 2010 22:53 kickinhead wrote: why do people keep saying that? it's SC2, but does that mean it has to be simpler and less fun to play and watch? That's a matter of opinion. I find SC2 infinitely less frustrating to play. I'm not going to get into a whole debate about this, as it's been done countless times before. Having said that, Blizzard obviously agrees with those of us in the "This is not BW" camp. | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On May 12 2010 22:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:[snip] It's also worth pointing out that mutas in BW do not have an instant turning speed. It may take them only a fraction of a second to turn 180 degrees, but you can clearly see them fly in a small arc as they turn around. So "real" BW muta micro shouldn't have the turn speed maxed out, just high. Good job so far, though. I'm also hoping to make a shmup with the Galaxy Editor in the distant future, so I hope that goes well, too. o.od | ||
|
Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
On May 12 2010 21:28 eNoq wrote: Looks nice, but i miss bw mutamicro.. maybe it's just the sound. Haha yeah. Well keep trying. All that video reminds me of is how mutas lost all their awesomeness. The projectile is still a joke. BW mutas were so alive, sc2 mutas look like the dumb cousins. | ||
|
InRaged
1047 Posts
On May 12 2010 22:57 muzzy wrote: That's a matter of opinion. I find SC2 infinitely less frustrating to play. You mean the fact that muta can't attack without completely stopping makes SC2 less frustrating to you? Or maybe it's hellions insane delay prior attack that makes it less frustrating for you? On May 12 2010 21:30 LaLuSh wrote: It looks pretty much the same to me. The mutas still have to come to a full stop before firing the glaives. Only thing you've done is increase the speed, acceleration and lower the turning animation. Is there really NO way that mutas can be controlled while firing and still in motion? I've searched all .galaxy files and haven't found the code that controls units logic. So either I'm totally blind or this shit's hard-coded =< | ||
| ||
