EPTPower Rank 03/04/2009 - Page 17
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503 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On March 19 2009 04:12 raga4ka wrote: Which maps are gonna be played ? I know that Bizantinum is pretty P>>>>>>>>Z . Don't know about the other maps . Byzantium 2 ZvP: 4-5. Clearly, this map is the zerg graveyard. From watching the games, I don't remember any games which were decided by the map. On the other hand, Neo Harmony(which is played twice) is 11-4 ZvP and, while Carthage is only 3-1 ZvP, it is apparently so zerg-favoured that JangBi chose to thumb it it down instead of Neo Harmony. Destination is reasonably balanced at ZvP: 34-31, although it feels to me like zerg have a slight advantage from their abundance of weird tricks(for example, HoeJJa vs Bisu from KTF/SKT). So yeah, the MSL map pool is definitely zerg-favoured in ZvP. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On March 18 2009 21:22 fanatacist wrote: Problem with JangBi is he can only (potentially) win SLs that Bisu isn't in LOL And Bisu has not won when he has to go through Jaedong or Mind. This kind of reasoning can go on and on. On March 19 2009 08:53 Elyvilon wrote: Byzantium 2 ZvP: 4-5. Clearly, this map is the zerg graveyard. From watching the games, I don't remember any games which were decided by the map. On the other hand, Neo Harmony(which is played twice) is 11-4 ZvP and, while Carthage is only 3-1 ZvP, it is apparently so zerg-favoured that JangBi chose to thumb it it down instead of Neo Harmony. Destination is reasonably balanced at ZvP: 34-31, although it feels to me like zerg have a slight advantage from their abundance of weird tricks(for example, HoeJJa vs Bisu from KTF/SKT). So yeah, the MSL map pool is definitely zerg-favoured in ZvP. Destination is really weird. At first, protoss dominated the map. I can't remember but I believe the archon/zealot push here just kept killing zergs. But then zergs figured out how to simcity the 3rd and since then, the mass hydra/muta combo became really powerful. Byzantium has long since lost its imbalance with all the modifications. | ||
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AlwaysGG
Taiwan952 Posts
 -savior huge fan << | ||
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Orbifold
United States1922 Posts
[QUOTE]On March 18 2009 21:22 fanatacist wrote: Problem with JangBi is he can only (potentially) win SLs that Bisu isn't in LOL[/QUOTE] And Bisu has not won when he has to go through Jaedong or Mind. This kind of reasoning can go on and on. His PvP is the main thing that's kept him from being widely accepted as an S-class player in my opinion. It sometimes seems like he's just dominated by players like Bisu, though he has really been improving rapidly in PvP and PvZ. | ||
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Nick_54
United States2230 Posts
[QUOTE]On March 19 2009 09:46 baubo wrote: [QUOTE]On March 18 2009 21:22 fanatacist wrote: Problem with JangBi is he can only (potentially) win SLs that Bisu isn't in LOL[/QUOTE] And Bisu has not won when he has to go through Jaedong or Mind. This kind of reasoning can go on and on. His PvP is the main thing that's kept him from being widely accepted as an S-class player in my opinion. It sometimes seems like he's just dominated by players like Bisu, though he has really been improving rapidly in PvP and PvZ. [/QUOTE] Well actually, Bisu has gone through mind in OSL wildcard and Jaedong and him just might meet in the final so... | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On March 19 2009 13:43 Orbifold wrote: His PvP is the main thing that's kept him from being widely accepted as an S-class player in my opinion. It sometimes seems like he's just dominated by players like Bisu, though he has really been improving rapidly in PvP and PvZ. He has soundly beaten 3 dragons in Bo5 series. How is that anything BUT proof of S-Class PvP? If your definition of S-Class is beating Bisu, then Flash should not be S-Class. Even Jaedong is iffy because his ZvT is still suspect in terms of being "S-Class". Jangbi's play is for all intents and purposes s-class. But he lacks a title. And until he does win one, or racks up so many silvers to even put Yellow to shame, I can see the argument against him being that caliber. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On March 19 2009 08:53 Elyvilon wrote: Byzantium 2 ZvP: 4-5. Clearly, this map is the zerg graveyard. From watching the games, I don't remember any games which were decided by the map. On the other hand, Neo Harmony(which is played twice) is 11-4 ZvP and, while Carthage is only 3-1 ZvP, it is apparently so zerg-favoured that JangBi chose to thumb it it down instead of Neo Harmony. Destination is reasonably balanced at ZvP: 34-31, although it feels to me like zerg have a slight advantage from their abundance of weird tricks(for example, HoeJJa vs Bisu from KTF/SKT). So yeah, the MSL map pool is definitely zerg-favoured in ZvP. Destination is a zerg favoring map now. Tosses used to dominate the map, than the balance swinged back. The stats are fairly even because of the early days. Is one of the few maps, where zergs can cheese, and by cheese i dont mean 2 hatch muta (cuz that's not) but proxy hatchery, abusing the mineralblocked back entrence. We saw already 3-4 type of tricks there. Most basic, sending an early drone to mine, advanced version of it, send 5 drone to mine it at once, failureprone version: use a drone to glitch trough some lings, and the sick burrow-jump ala Hoejja. Zergs take their 3rd relatevly fast and the tosses seem like they cant deal with it very well. It is quite easy to contain with a couple of lurkers the toss on 2 base. And protosses struggle to keep their 3rd. One manouver what beats me with this scenarion is that, the toss doesnt tries do 3rd exp, masses up a ground army, than mines the mineral patch at the back, avoids/flanks my contain and i'm screwed. I didnt see this on pro scene, probably because at pro level tosses arent comfortable without their 3rd expo. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On March 19 2009 14:18 baubo wrote: He has soundly beaten 3 dragons in Bo5 series. How is that anything BUT proof of S-Class PvP? If your definition of S-Class is beating Bisu, then Flash should not be S-Class. Even Jaedong is iffy because his ZvT is still suspect in terms of being "S-Class". Jangbi's play is for all intents and purposes s-class. But he lacks a title. And until he does win one, or racks up so many silvers to even put Yellow to shame, I can see the argument against him being that caliber. Jaedong can go toe-to-toe with Bisu, but his ZvP is far less consistent than his ZvT nowadays. He has been 72% in that MU ever since he beat Flash on Destination which broke his "slump" (wow have I said that before). His ZvT cannot be called suspect. His PvZ, on the other hand, is prone to inconsistencies, like dropping the soap against Stork and losing pretty badly to Kal and Free. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On March 19 2009 14:18 baubo wrote: He has soundly beaten 3 dragons in Bo5 series. How is that anything BUT proof of S-Class PvP? If your definition of S-Class is beating Bisu, then Flash should not be S-Class. Even Jaedong is iffy because his ZvT is still suspect in terms of being "S-Class". Jangbi's play is for all intents and purposes s-class. But he lacks a title. And until he does win one, or racks up so many silvers to even put Yellow to shame, I can see the argument against him being that caliber. JangBi is the second best PvPer right now how is that not S - class ? Even when he plays Bisu the games are pretty even althought Bisu comes out ahead somehow ... | ||
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animus123
United States171 Posts
On March 19 2009 18:15 raga4ka wrote: JangBi is the second best PvPer right now how is that not S - class ? Even when he plays Bisu the games are pretty even althought Bisu comes out ahead somehow ... isn't that the definition of not being s class? I mean, if someone is better than you then you don't get a pass to the S-Club. | ||
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Scorch
Austria3371 Posts
On March 19 2009 22:27 animus123 wrote: isn't that the definition of not being s class? I mean, if someone is better than you then you don't get a pass to the S-Club. Turn it around: Jangbi has the best PvT and his PvP and PvZ rank around second or third. He is the fourth best player in the world without question, which could make him eligible for the S-class, if you want to make that argument. | ||
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OmegaFang
United States156 Posts
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On March 20 2009 02:01 OmegaFang wrote: I would actually make an arguement that Bisu's current PvT form is better than Jangbi's right now. Ummmm, no. Jangbi definitely has better PvT. Bisu hasn't even been playing that many terrans recently. | ||
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Darth Peter
Romania438 Posts
On March 20 2009 02:14 De4ngus wrote: Ummmm, no. Jangbi definitely has better PvT. Bisu hasn't even been playing that many terrans recently. Jangbi hasn't either. He barely beat Nada,and Bisu beat him too. They have about the same P v T. Perhaps Jangbi's is slightly better,but it's a close race. | ||
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Orbifold
United States1922 Posts
My personal criteria isn't beating Bisu, it's just that he has so far seemed dominated by Bisu in a way that an S class player shouldn't be. | ||
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iloahz
United States964 Posts
Bisu has slight edge, and his opponents have been tougher too. | ||
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Mooncat
Germany1228 Posts
On March 20 2009 03:45 zhaoli86 wrote: since oct 08, bisu is 84% vs t, jangbi is 80% vs t Bisu has slight edge, and his opponents have been tougher too. Opponent toughness isn't measured by their names. It depends on how they're playing. If you see JangBi - NaDa 3:2 you might think "oh, JangBi's PvT is looking a little shaky", but if you've actually seen NaDa play you realize he played some S-Class TvP in that series and I'm pretty sure any other protoss would have lost that series. This was of course only an example. But the same goes for many other games. Furthermore, it's not only the winning percentage you have to take into account. You also have to consider how every single game went individually. Was the opponent completely dismantled, or was it close? Did both players underperform, but one a littler harder than the other? Etc. You can't really compare two players' strength in a certain match-up that way. | ||
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iloahz
United States964 Posts
On March 20 2009 06:11 Mooncat wrote: Opponent toughness isn't measured by their names. It depends on how they're playing. If you see JangBi - NaDa 3:2 you might think "oh, JangBi's PvT is looking a little shaky", but if you've actually seen NaDa play you realize he played some S-Class TvP in that series and I'm pretty sure any other protoss would have lost that series. This was of course only an example. But the same goes for many other games. Furthermore, it's not only the winning percentage you have to take into account. You also have to consider how every single game went individually. Was the opponent completely dismantled, or was it close? Did both players underperform, but one a littler harder than the other? Etc. You can't really compare two players' strength in a certain match-up that way. In those cases, Bisu does seem to have the edge over Jangbi. In the games Bisu won, he totally destroyed his opponents with the exception of Flash. Whereas Jangbi looked relatively shaky in many of his games. They played the same amount of games since oct 08, and Bisu had higher winning percentage AND tougher opponents AND looked better in the games he won. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On March 19 2009 15:25 Geo.Rion wrote: Destination is a zerg favoring map now. Tosses used to dominate the map, than the balance swinged back. The stats are fairly even because of the early days. Is one of the few maps, where zergs can cheese, and by cheese i dont mean 2 hatch muta (cuz that's not) but proxy hatchery, abusing the mineralblocked back entrence. We saw already 3-4 type of tricks there. Most basic, sending an early drone to mine, advanced version of it, send 5 drone to mine it at once, failureprone version: use a drone to glitch trough some lings, and the sick burrow-jump ala Hoejja. Zergs take their 3rd relatevly fast and the tosses seem like they cant deal with it very well. It is quite easy to contain with a couple of lurkers the toss on 2 base. And protosses struggle to keep their 3rd. One manouver what beats me with this scenarion is that, the toss doesnt tries do 3rd exp, masses up a ground army, than mines the mineral patch at the back, avoids/flanks my contain and i'm screwed. I didnt see this on pro scene, probably because at pro level tosses arent comfortable without their 3rd expo. ^ Most stupid thing I have ever heard in relation to StarCraft | ||
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