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Power Rank 03/04/2009 - Page 17

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
Post a Reply
Prev 1 15 16 17 18 19 38 Next All
Fx_
Profile Joined April 2008
503 Posts
March 18 2009 21:32 GMT
#321
hope in next round PL Flash will play better...
Power is your Intelligence
Elyvilon
Profile Joined August 2008
United States13143 Posts
March 18 2009 23:53 GMT
#322
On March 19 2009 04:12 raga4ka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2009 19:44 Geo.Rion wrote:
If jangbi can take that series against Lux i will be amazed. Those maps heavely z>p. Jangbi cheeses a lot/plays unorthodox for sure that might help him out. Or if Lux is in abad form. he tends to play awful sometimes.

Which maps are gonna be played ?
I know that Bizantinum is pretty P>>>>>>>>Z . Don't know about the other maps .

Byzantium 2 ZvP: 4-5. Clearly, this map is the zerg graveyard. From watching the games, I don't remember any games which were decided by the map.

On the other hand, Neo Harmony(which is played twice) is 11-4 ZvP and, while Carthage is only 3-1 ZvP, it is apparently so zerg-favoured that JangBi chose to thumb it it down instead of Neo Harmony.

Destination is reasonably balanced at ZvP: 34-31, although it feels to me like zerg have a slight advantage from their abundance of weird tricks(for example, HoeJJa vs Bisu from KTF/SKT).

So yeah, the MSL map pool is definitely zerg-favoured in ZvP.
Liquipedia
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-19 00:50:48
March 19 2009 00:46 GMT
#323
On March 18 2009 21:22 fanatacist wrote:
Problem with JangBi is he can only (potentially) win SLs that Bisu isn't in LOL


And Bisu has not won when he has to go through Jaedong or Mind. This kind of reasoning can go on and on.

On March 19 2009 08:53 Elyvilon wrote:
Byzantium 2 ZvP: 4-5. Clearly, this map is the zerg graveyard. From watching the games, I don't remember any games which were decided by the map.

On the other hand, Neo Harmony(which is played twice) is 11-4 ZvP and, while Carthage is only 3-1 ZvP, it is apparently so zerg-favoured that JangBi chose to thumb it it down instead of Neo Harmony.

Destination is reasonably balanced at ZvP: 34-31, although it feels to me like zerg have a slight advantage from their abundance of weird tricks(for example, HoeJJa vs Bisu from KTF/SKT).

So yeah, the MSL map pool is definitely zerg-favoured in ZvP.


Destination is really weird. At first, protoss dominated the map. I can't remember but I believe the archon/zealot push here just kept killing zergs. But then zergs figured out how to simcity the 3rd and since then, the mass hydra/muta combo became really powerful.

Byzantium has long since lost its imbalance with all the modifications.
Meh
AlwaysGG
Profile Joined March 2009
Taiwan952 Posts
March 19 2009 01:43 GMT
#324
hoping for more consistent play of Maestro


-savior huge fan <<



Trust 神教教主 FlaSh | Believe 火心 EffOrt
Orbifold
Profile Joined September 2008
United States1922 Posts
March 19 2009 04:43 GMT
#325
[QUOTE]On March 19 2009 09:46 baubo wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 18 2009 21:22 fanatacist wrote:
Problem with JangBi is he can only (potentially) win SLs that Bisu isn't in LOL[/QUOTE]

And Bisu has not won when he has to go through Jaedong or Mind. This kind of reasoning can go on and on.

His PvP is the main thing that's kept him from being widely accepted as an S-class player in my opinion. It sometimes seems like he's just dominated by players like Bisu, though he has really been improving rapidly in PvP and PvZ.
Allow me to reintroduce myself...
Nick_54
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2230 Posts
March 19 2009 05:16 GMT
#326
[QUOTE]On March 19 2009 13:43 Orbifold wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 19 2009 09:46 baubo wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 18 2009 21:22 fanatacist wrote:
Problem with JangBi is he can only (potentially) win SLs that Bisu isn't in LOL[/QUOTE]

And Bisu has not won when he has to go through Jaedong or Mind. This kind of reasoning can go on and on.

His PvP is the main thing that's kept him from being widely accepted as an S-class player in my opinion. It sometimes seems like he's just dominated by players like Bisu, though he has really been improving rapidly in PvP and PvZ. [/QUOTE]

Well actually, Bisu has gone through mind in OSL wildcard and Jaedong and him just might meet in the final so...
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-19 05:43:54
March 19 2009 05:18 GMT
#327
On March 19 2009 13:43 Orbifold wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2009 09:46 baubo wrote:
On March 18 2009 21:22 fanatacist wrote:
Problem with JangBi is he can only (potentially) win SLs that Bisu isn't in LOL


And Bisu has not won when he has to go through Jaedong or Mind. This kind of reasoning can go on and on.


His PvP is the main thing that's kept him from being widely accepted as an S-class player in my opinion. It sometimes seems like he's just dominated by players like Bisu, though he has really been improving rapidly in PvP and PvZ.


He has soundly beaten 3 dragons in Bo5 series. How is that anything BUT proof of S-Class PvP? If your definition of S-Class is beating Bisu, then Flash should not be S-Class. Even Jaedong is iffy because his ZvT is still suspect in terms of being "S-Class".

Jangbi's play is for all intents and purposes s-class. But he lacks a title. And until he does win one, or racks up so many silvers to even put Yellow to shame, I can see the argument against him being that caliber.
Meh
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
March 19 2009 06:25 GMT
#328
On March 19 2009 08:53 Elyvilon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2009 04:12 raga4ka wrote:
On March 18 2009 19:44 Geo.Rion wrote:
If jangbi can take that series against Lux i will be amazed. Those maps heavely z>p. Jangbi cheeses a lot/plays unorthodox for sure that might help him out. Or if Lux is in abad form. he tends to play awful sometimes.

Which maps are gonna be played ?
I know that Bizantinum is pretty P>>>>>>>>Z . Don't know about the other maps .

Byzantium 2 ZvP: 4-5. Clearly, this map is the zerg graveyard. From watching the games, I don't remember any games which were decided by the map.

On the other hand, Neo Harmony(which is played twice) is 11-4 ZvP and, while Carthage is only 3-1 ZvP, it is apparently so zerg-favoured that JangBi chose to thumb it it down instead of Neo Harmony.

Destination is reasonably balanced at ZvP: 34-31, although it feels to me like zerg have a slight advantage from their abundance of weird tricks(for example, HoeJJa vs Bisu from KTF/SKT).

So yeah, the MSL map pool is definitely zerg-favoured in ZvP.


Destination is a zerg favoring map now. Tosses used to dominate the map, than the balance swinged back. The stats are fairly even because of the early days. Is one of the few maps, where zergs can cheese, and by cheese i dont mean 2 hatch muta (cuz that's not) but proxy hatchery, abusing the mineralblocked back entrence. We saw already 3-4 type of tricks there. Most basic, sending an early drone to mine, advanced version of it, send 5 drone to mine it at once, failureprone version: use a drone to glitch trough some lings, and the sick burrow-jump ala Hoejja.

Zergs take their 3rd relatevly fast and the tosses seem like they cant deal with it very well. It is quite easy to contain with a couple of lurkers the toss on 2 base. And protosses struggle to keep their 3rd. One manouver what beats me with this scenarion is that, the toss doesnt tries do 3rd exp, masses up a ground army, than mines the mineral patch at the back, avoids/flanks my contain and i'm screwed. I didnt see this on pro scene, probably because at pro level tosses arent comfortable without their 3rd expo.
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
March 19 2009 06:58 GMT
#329
On March 19 2009 14:18 baubo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2009 13:43 Orbifold wrote:
On March 19 2009 09:46 baubo wrote:
On March 18 2009 21:22 fanatacist wrote:
Problem with JangBi is he can only (potentially) win SLs that Bisu isn't in LOL


And Bisu has not won when he has to go through Jaedong or Mind. This kind of reasoning can go on and on.


His PvP is the main thing that's kept him from being widely accepted as an S-class player in my opinion. It sometimes seems like he's just dominated by players like Bisu, though he has really been improving rapidly in PvP and PvZ.


He has soundly beaten 3 dragons in Bo5 series. How is that anything BUT proof of S-Class PvP? If your definition of S-Class is beating Bisu, then Flash should not be S-Class. Even Jaedong is iffy because his ZvT is still suspect in terms of being "S-Class".

Jangbi's play is for all intents and purposes s-class. But he lacks a title. And until he does win one, or racks up so many silvers to even put Yellow to shame, I can see the argument against him being that caliber.

Jaedong can go toe-to-toe with Bisu, but his ZvP is far less consistent than his ZvT nowadays. He has been 72% in that MU ever since he beat Flash on Destination which broke his "slump" (wow have I said that before). His ZvT cannot be called suspect. His PvZ, on the other hand, is prone to inconsistencies, like dropping the soap against Stork and losing pretty badly to Kal and Free.
Jaedong
raga4ka
Profile Joined February 2008
Bulgaria5679 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-19 09:15:28
March 19 2009 09:15 GMT
#330
On March 19 2009 14:18 baubo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2009 13:43 Orbifold wrote:
On March 19 2009 09:46 baubo wrote:
On March 18 2009 21:22 fanatacist wrote:
Problem with JangBi is he can only (potentially) win SLs that Bisu isn't in LOL


And Bisu has not won when he has to go through Jaedong or Mind. This kind of reasoning can go on and on.


His PvP is the main thing that's kept him from being widely accepted as an S-class player in my opinion. It sometimes seems like he's just dominated by players like Bisu, though he has really been improving rapidly in PvP and PvZ.


He has soundly beaten 3 dragons in Bo5 series. How is that anything BUT proof of S-Class PvP? If your definition of S-Class is beating Bisu, then Flash should not be S-Class. Even Jaedong is iffy because his ZvT is still suspect in terms of being "S-Class".

Jangbi's play is for all intents and purposes s-class. But he lacks a title. And until he does win one, or racks up so many silvers to even put Yellow to shame, I can see the argument against him being that caliber.


JangBi is the second best PvPer right now how is that not S - class ? Even when he plays Bisu the games are pretty even althought Bisu comes out ahead somehow ...
animus123
Profile Joined January 2009
United States171 Posts
March 19 2009 13:27 GMT
#331
On March 19 2009 18:15 raga4ka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2009 14:18 baubo wrote:
On March 19 2009 13:43 Orbifold wrote:
On March 19 2009 09:46 baubo wrote:
On March 18 2009 21:22 fanatacist wrote:
Problem with JangBi is he can only (potentially) win SLs that Bisu isn't in LOL


And Bisu has not won when he has to go through Jaedong or Mind. This kind of reasoning can go on and on.


His PvP is the main thing that's kept him from being widely accepted as an S-class player in my opinion. It sometimes seems like he's just dominated by players like Bisu, though he has really been improving rapidly in PvP and PvZ.


He has soundly beaten 3 dragons in Bo5 series. How is that anything BUT proof of S-Class PvP? If your definition of S-Class is beating Bisu, then Flash should not be S-Class. Even Jaedong is iffy because his ZvT is still suspect in terms of being "S-Class".

Jangbi's play is for all intents and purposes s-class. But he lacks a title. And until he does win one, or racks up so many silvers to even put Yellow to shame, I can see the argument against him being that caliber.


JangBi is the second best PvPer right now how is that not S - class ? Even when he plays Bisu the games are pretty even althought Bisu comes out ahead somehow ...


isn't that the definition of not being s class? I mean, if someone is better than you then you don't get a pass to the S-Club.
Scorch
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Austria3371 Posts
March 19 2009 16:57 GMT
#332
On March 19 2009 22:27 animus123 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2009 18:15 raga4ka wrote:
On March 19 2009 14:18 baubo wrote:
On March 19 2009 13:43 Orbifold wrote:
On March 19 2009 09:46 baubo wrote:
On March 18 2009 21:22 fanatacist wrote:
Problem with JangBi is he can only (potentially) win SLs that Bisu isn't in LOL


And Bisu has not won when he has to go through Jaedong or Mind. This kind of reasoning can go on and on.


His PvP is the main thing that's kept him from being widely accepted as an S-class player in my opinion. It sometimes seems like he's just dominated by players like Bisu, though he has really been improving rapidly in PvP and PvZ.


He has soundly beaten 3 dragons in Bo5 series. How is that anything BUT proof of S-Class PvP? If your definition of S-Class is beating Bisu, then Flash should not be S-Class. Even Jaedong is iffy because his ZvT is still suspect in terms of being "S-Class".

Jangbi's play is for all intents and purposes s-class. But he lacks a title. And until he does win one, or racks up so many silvers to even put Yellow to shame, I can see the argument against him being that caliber.


JangBi is the second best PvPer right now how is that not S - class ? Even when he plays Bisu the games are pretty even althought Bisu comes out ahead somehow ...


isn't that the definition of not being s class? I mean, if someone is better than you then you don't get a pass to the S-Club.

Turn it around: Jangbi has the best PvT and his PvP and PvZ rank around second or third. He is the fourth best player in the world without question, which could make him eligible for the S-class, if you want to make that argument.
OmegaFang
Profile Joined May 2008
United States156 Posts
March 19 2009 17:01 GMT
#333
I would actually make an arguement that Bisu's current PvT form is better than Jangbi's right now.
De4ngus
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6533 Posts
March 19 2009 17:14 GMT
#334
On March 20 2009 02:01 OmegaFang wrote:
I would actually make an arguement that Bisu's current PvT form is better than Jangbi's right now.

Ummmm, no. Jangbi definitely has better PvT. Bisu hasn't even been playing that many terrans recently.
GANDHISAUCE
Darth Peter
Profile Joined October 2008
Romania438 Posts
March 19 2009 17:35 GMT
#335
On March 20 2009 02:14 De4ngus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2009 02:01 OmegaFang wrote:
I would actually make an arguement that Bisu's current PvT form is better than Jangbi's right now.

Ummmm, no. Jangbi definitely has better PvT. Bisu hasn't even been playing that many terrans recently.

Jangbi hasn't either. He barely beat Nada,and Bisu beat him too. They have about the same P v T. Perhaps Jangbi's is slightly better,but it's a close race.
Orbifold
Profile Joined September 2008
United States1922 Posts
March 19 2009 18:20 GMT
#336
Jangbi is by far my favorite Toss, I really wasn't trying to hate on him whatsoever. It's just that he is only 55% PvP, I totally admit though that he has been playing a much stronger PvP lately.

My personal criteria isn't beating Bisu, it's just that he has so far seemed dominated by Bisu in a way that an S class player shouldn't be.
Allow me to reintroduce myself...
iloahz
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States964 Posts
March 19 2009 18:45 GMT
#337
since oct 08, bisu is 84% vs t, jangbi is 80% vs t
Bisu has slight edge, and his opponents have been tougher too.
Mooncat
Profile Joined October 2007
Germany1228 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-19 21:12:53
March 19 2009 21:11 GMT
#338
On March 20 2009 03:45 zhaoli86 wrote:
since oct 08, bisu is 84% vs t, jangbi is 80% vs t
Bisu has slight edge, and his opponents have been tougher too.


Opponent toughness isn't measured by their names. It depends on how they're playing. If you see JangBi - NaDa 3:2 you might think "oh, JangBi's PvT is looking a little shaky", but if you've actually seen NaDa play you realize he played some S-Class TvP in that series and I'm pretty sure any other protoss would have lost that series.

This was of course only an example. But the same goes for many other games. Furthermore, it's not only the winning percentage you have to take into account. You also have to consider how every single game went individually. Was the opponent completely dismantled, or was it close? Did both players underperform, but one a littler harder than the other? Etc.

You can't really compare two players' strength in a certain match-up that way.
"[Lee Young Ho] With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status."
iloahz
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States964 Posts
March 19 2009 22:17 GMT
#339
On March 20 2009 06:11 Mooncat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2009 03:45 zhaoli86 wrote:
since oct 08, bisu is 84% vs t, jangbi is 80% vs t
Bisu has slight edge, and his opponents have been tougher too.


Opponent toughness isn't measured by their names. It depends on how they're playing. If you see JangBi - NaDa 3:2 you might think "oh, JangBi's PvT is looking a little shaky", but if you've actually seen NaDa play you realize he played some S-Class TvP in that series and I'm pretty sure any other protoss would have lost that series.

This was of course only an example. But the same goes for many other games. Furthermore, it's not only the winning percentage you have to take into account. You also have to consider how every single game went individually. Was the opponent completely dismantled, or was it close? Did both players underperform, but one a littler harder than the other? Etc.

You can't really compare two players' strength in a certain match-up that way.


In those cases, Bisu does seem to have the edge over Jangbi. In the games Bisu won, he totally destroyed his opponents with the exception of Flash. Whereas Jangbi looked relatively shaky in many of his games. They played the same amount of games since oct 08, and Bisu had higher winning percentage AND tougher opponents AND looked better in the games he won.
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
March 20 2009 04:25 GMT
#340
On March 19 2009 15:25 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2009 08:53 Elyvilon wrote:
On March 19 2009 04:12 raga4ka wrote:
On March 18 2009 19:44 Geo.Rion wrote:
If jangbi can take that series against Lux i will be amazed. Those maps heavely z>p. Jangbi cheeses a lot/plays unorthodox for sure that might help him out. Or if Lux is in abad form. he tends to play awful sometimes.

Which maps are gonna be played ?
I know that Bizantinum is pretty P>>>>>>>>Z . Don't know about the other maps .

Byzantium 2 ZvP: 4-5. Clearly, this map is the zerg graveyard. From watching the games, I don't remember any games which were decided by the map.

On the other hand, Neo Harmony(which is played twice) is 11-4 ZvP and, while Carthage is only 3-1 ZvP, it is apparently so zerg-favoured that JangBi chose to thumb it it down instead of Neo Harmony.

Destination is reasonably balanced at ZvP: 34-31, although it feels to me like zerg have a slight advantage from their abundance of weird tricks(for example, HoeJJa vs Bisu from KTF/SKT).

So yeah, the MSL map pool is definitely zerg-favoured in ZvP.


Destination is a zerg favoring map now. Tosses used to dominate the map, than the balance swinged back. The stats are fairly even because of the early days. Is one of the few maps, where zergs can cheese, and by cheese i dont mean 2 hatch muta (cuz that's not) but proxy hatchery, abusing the mineralblocked back entrence. We saw already 3-4 type of tricks there. Most basic, sending an early drone to mine, advanced version of it, send 5 drone to mine it at once, failureprone version: use a drone to glitch trough some lings, and the sick burrow-jump ala Hoejja.

Zergs take their 3rd relatevly fast and the tosses seem like they cant deal with it very well. It is quite easy to contain with a couple of lurkers the toss on 2 base. And protosses struggle to keep their 3rd. One manouver what beats me with this scenarion is that, the toss doesnt tries do 3rd exp, masses up a ground army, than mines the mineral patch at the back, avoids/flanks my contain and i'm screwed. I didnt see this on pro scene, probably because at pro level tosses arent comfortable without their 3rd expo.

^ Most stupid thing I have ever heard in relation to StarCraft
Peace~
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