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What do you think about the return of Extended Series at M…

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
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OrD_SC2
Profile Joined February 2012
United States247 Posts
July 04 2013 22:43 GMT
#61
Ultimately I feel this is a "meh..." decision. If we want to create story lines in eSports that mean something we have to decide on a format and stick with if for more than a few months at a time.

GSL is a great example of this - its gone through MANY changes and yet because when the make major changes they keep them for multiple seasons (normally) and thus we don't have to add eight different *'s onto every pro's stat sheet.
Baldie disapproved of my last status, TT
CycoDude
Profile Joined November 2010
United States326 Posts
July 05 2013 02:59 GMT
#62
i don't know why people cry about this. if you beat someone in a best of three, and meet that same person again, they have to beat you in two best of threes, because you haven't fallen into the losers bracket yet. it's DOUBLE ELIMINATION. they've already lost once, you've lost ZERO times. it's not hard to understand.

so is that the issue, or is the issue that double-elimination is not as good as some other method?
Klyberess
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden345 Posts
July 05 2013 07:19 GMT
#63
On July 05 2013 11:59 CycoDude wrote:
i don't know why people cry about this. if you beat someone in a best of three, and meet that same person again, they have to beat you in two best of threes, because you haven't fallen into the losers bracket yet. it's DOUBLE ELIMINATION. they've already lost once, you've lost ZERO times. it's not hard to understand.

so is that the issue, or is the issue that double-elimination is not as good as some other method?

If you're in the winner's bracket, you DON'T play against someone in the loser's bracket. Why do you complain that WE don't understand the system, when you clearly have no idea how it works yourself? Ugh... Apparently it IS hard to understand.
EmpireHappy <3 STHack <3 ByunPrime
Noobity
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States871 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-05 16:02:50
July 05 2013 16:00 GMT
#64
I think extended series is fine in a lower bracket scenario before the top 16. Seeing how this is very rarely the case, it's probably for the best that it's dropped.

However, this does kind of cheat a player who has not lost a set when they face a player that has. Maybe if each MLG just starts to be 2 side by side tournaments, where the winner of 1 will play the winner of the other, creating a true best of whatever final, with extended series being used in each individual bracket but not the final? Or maybe 4 individual mini tournaments where the winner of the winners bracket and the winner of the losers bracket go to the round of 8 and then it's single elim from there?

Or just make getting to the finals as the winner's bracket winner have it's own bonus prize money? I actually like that last idea.

On July 05 2013 16:19 Klyberess wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2013 11:59 CycoDude wrote:
i don't know why people cry about this. if you beat someone in a best of three, and meet that same person again, they have to beat you in two best of threes, because you haven't fallen into the losers bracket yet. it's DOUBLE ELIMINATION. they've already lost once, you've lost ZERO times. it's not hard to understand.

so is that the issue, or is the issue that double-elimination is not as good as some other method?

If you're in the winner's bracket, you DON'T play against someone in the loser's bracket. Why do you complain that WE don't understand the system, when you clearly have no idea how it works yourself? Ugh... Apparently it IS hard to understand.


Happens in the finals kinda often. If huk beats demuslim in the semis of the winners bracket, and then demuslim beats incontrol in the losers bracket finals, then it's huk vs demuslim in the finals where huk's already beaten demuslim once.

I think that's the kinda thing he's getting at.
My name is Mike, and statistically, yours is not.
polysciguy
Profile Joined August 2010
United States488 Posts
July 05 2013 18:03 GMT
#65
On June 25 2013 12:20 Boucot wrote:
What I don't like and I find "unfair" in this system is that it gives an advantage to a player who is at the same stage of the tournament as his opponent. Both players have lost a series. Why would a player suffer such a disadvantage because he lost to the "wrong" player ? That's why I dislike extended series.

this
also think about it, if the series becomes a best of 5, the player that won the previous series only has to win 1 game to move on, if it becomes a best of seven, the losing player has to win 3-4 games and is only allowed to drop a single match. when if they face any other player they only have to win 2 games.
glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever---napoleon
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
July 05 2013 21:04 GMT
#66
Extended series doesn't make any sense in a game where there are 3 match-ups - if you ranked matchups by ELO and averaged you can show mathematically that the player from lower bracket is likely to be the better player! (as he has won more games). You could improve the likelihood of better players winning by adding the extra matches towards the end of the tournament instead of randomly where players meet previous opponents.
Also from an organisational point of view it messes up the timings by making the length of each series more variable.

There is no "plus" except extra games... but you could add them in better places.
Don't hate the player - Hate the game
Befree
Profile Joined April 2010
695 Posts
July 06 2013 00:13 GMT
#67
Perhaps we should go all the way with this philosophy and add some sort of transitive form of the extended series. Where if A 2-0 B, A 2-1 C, Perhaps B vs C in the lower bracket should begin at 3-2?? I mean why not? Clearly this only adds fairness! Why should C not receive an advantage for taking a game off A. B is just a little newbie who couldn't even beat A in a single match. Where C actually showed his worth in the winner's bracket. What was even the point in C taking a game off A if little newbie B who couldn't gets equal footing in the B vs C encounter?!

I formally propose this Transitive Extended Series model for future MLGs. Fairness will prevail!

Or wait... Why are we even restricting this to their little subset of 3?? Why should A's games vs B, C, D, E not also be organized in such a way to relate them to F's games vs G, H, I, J? A 2-0's BCDE and F 2-1's GHIJ. And A vs F begins at 0-0?? What the fuck?? Certainly we can relate their two paths in a fair way? Now sure you might say "but genius creator of the TES model, what if GHIJ were a bunch of American noobs and BCDE were a bunch of top Koreans? We can't compare those results as if a win vs 2-0 vs B is the same as a 2-0 vs G!" Indeed you are correct, and that's why our model will also utilize an ELO system! Using the ELO of A's and F's previous opponents we can accurately weight the significance of each of their previous wins, and using this we can come up with an initial score for their series that truly will capture the accomplishments each has made so far in the tournament.

But hold on you might say. Hold on sir because there's still injustice left in this MLG tournament. For example what if A beat B in the last 10 competitive matches against each other. Surely if B were to 3-2 A it would be an anomaly, an injustice against the A and the tournament as a whole! ...Dammit, you're right! We've completely ignored history in our model. Without that, we definitely cannot optimize this tournament for fairness. Okay... Well the inclusion of ELO certainly helps to a degree in terms of taking into account the history of players in our tournament, but it definitely doesn't go far enough. Our model needs to include every match in the last year... no... 2 years... no, that's not enough! Our model must include every single competitive match each player in our tournament has every played! Once we take that into account, we can then correctly weight who deserves to win every match and maybe then we can reach the level of absolutely fair results...

Oh no, but what about non-competitive matches! Does the ladder game Flash won against Supernova last night not mean anything?!! How can we ignore that! We can't.. Clearly we must work with Blizzard and collect ladder data on every player and inject that into our model as well... Ah but what about melee games off the ladder?... Yes, I suppose we'll need those too. And really since we're on the subject of custom games, what if Flash beats Supernova at 5 games of Desert Strike in a row?! Sure it's not using melee ruleset but it has similar themes to our MLG competitive matches. It should also be included in our system, even if just to a small degree....

I think we've got it now guys. We just need every single game played by every player on StarCraft. And then the tournament will be truly optimized for justice... This will really be a milestone for competitive gaming, as well as humanity as a whole.

WAIT

Oh my god, how was I so foolish?! Our thinking, it has been so focused on purely StarCraft and purely match results, I think we're missing the human factor in this all. What about that game of Star Battle that Flash was in on that day when he had just had lunch and was feeling a little sick from it and he lost to Supernova. I mean we're COMPLETELY ignoring the factors outside of the game there! Or what about that guy who said "you suck" to Suppy before he started that MLG match. Clearly Suppy's mind was put in a different state than his opponent by this outside factor he couldn't control. Was that win to his opponent really as valuable as a clean win would have been?? NO! If we're gonna do this right, we're gonna need to factor in every emotion they feel... Well, more than that, we need every single stimuli they have ever been exposed to to be included in our model... Only at this point can we calculate the correct initial score for beginning a series. Only then we'll we be able to weight in such a way that justice always prevails.

But certainly through these calculations, we can find to within an extremely tiny error (basically negligible) who should win. So why even put them through it? Because that tiny negligible chance that they have of deserving their win deserves a chance!! That's what the MLG is about! We can't ignore any factor due to its seemingly insignificant existence.

A true utopia of competitive E-sports awaits us with MLG as our guide. Oh what a beautiful world it will be. And more importantly, what a fair one.
Terrasmith
Profile Joined February 2013
47 Posts
July 06 2013 10:41 GMT
#68
I think the extended series doesn't quite make sense in a bracket format. Mind games and external factors have a huge effect on the progression of a series, and players react differently to pressure. So it really doesn't make sense for a Ro8 match to start imbalanced because three or four rounds back one player was hot and another slightly off. There are too many intangible factors that change between the two series for extended series to be fair.
Garoodah
Profile Joined January 2012
United States56 Posts
July 06 2013 18:36 GMT
#69
Im pretty neutral only because it favors players who put their best builds into a tournament early, and the ones with superior play. The being said its somewhat deterring watching players fall out of a tournament after working so hard in the losers bracket only to lose again in an extended series. Its a tough decision but the more I think about it the more I think its bad for tournament play.
"Oh man we've got GG-lords"
KalWarkov
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Germany4126 Posts
July 06 2013 22:45 GMT
#70
it doesnt make any sense whatsoever.

it rly hurts my brain that 32% vote for "approve"
DiaBoLuS ** Sc2 - Protoss: 16x GM | Dota2 - Offlane Immortal | Wc3 - Undead decent level | Diablo nerd | Chess / Magnus fanboy | BVB | Agnostic***
KalWarkov
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Germany4126 Posts
July 06 2013 22:47 GMT
#71
On July 05 2013 11:59 CycoDude wrote:
i don't know why people cry about this. if you beat someone in a best of three, and meet that same person again, they have to beat you in two best of threes, because you haven't fallen into the losers bracket yet. it's DOUBLE ELIMINATION. they've already lost once, you've lost ZERO times. it's not hard to understand.

so is that the issue, or is the issue that double-elimination is not as good as some other method?


well, then why do you only have to win 2 bo3s if you already played and lost against that specific player?
you should either play 2 bo3s vs EVERYONE who lost ZERO games till that point, or just fucking play a normal bo3 since u crawled all the way up to that point from a LB, and you had to go through a lot more opponents.
DiaBoLuS ** Sc2 - Protoss: 16x GM | Dota2 - Offlane Immortal | Wc3 - Undead decent level | Diablo nerd | Chess / Magnus fanboy | BVB | Agnostic***
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
July 07 2013 09:06 GMT
#72
Why not go all the way and take the entire face-to-face history between the players? Best of 57 ftw. Fairness guaranteed.
If you are a better player go out there and prove it.
TrippSC2
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States209 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-07 14:52:21
July 07 2013 14:49 GMT
#73
I voted approve, but I wish I could switch to the middle-of-the-road answer.

I like ES in the context of two players that are meeting in a Winners bracket vs Losers bracket finals. ES is more interesting and straight-forward to explain as a format than doing the 1 BoX to force another BoX.

MLG doesn't use ES well, imo. If both players are in the same Losers bracket, they deserve to go in on equal footing.

Also, in the past, they've double handicapped the Losers bracket player in the above situation which leads to an unfair and confusing format. Stuff like the Loser bracket player must win a Bo9 (Bo3 + Bo5) starting down 2-0 to extend the series further to a Bo13, which is just ridiculous.

Personally, I miss the pool play that used to happen at MLG. Fairness aside, I enjoyed watching that format more than an enormous bracket.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17971 Posts
July 08 2013 17:46 GMT
#74
Extended series are retarded. Both players got knocked down to the lower bracket. Doesn't matter by whom. Series should start on equal footing.
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