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On August 13 2011 22:42 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 22:21 Mortality wrote:On August 13 2011 11:48 moopie wrote:On August 13 2011 10:53 Cpadolf wrote:On August 12 2011 23:22 moopie wrote:No Zerg yet has lost the KeSPA throne and retaken it yet, and with Jaedong out of OSL and Hydra still in it that task has become even more arduous. That's true for all but H.O.T Forever, who was #1 Zerg for 3 months on the KeSPA rank but only 2 consecutively, and thus the exception to the rule. Actually TaewoO was a random player (or at least he didn't play Zerg exclusively), so H.O.T was the #1 Zerg consecutively too. He wasn't random, but he did play T and Z (with a bit of P). However, KeSPA's official records recognize his Z reign as #1 Zerg for 3 months. Since KeSPA is the head authority of the KeSPA rank and they state that H.O.T's rule was not consecutive, that's good enough for me. Back then most players would use random whenever the map was unsuitable for their main race and would sometimes use random (or race pick) when they had a concern over how a particular match might play out. If you look through records carefully you'll see that other top names of their races did this as well. In fact I remember at one point looking on pgr21.com and seeing that TheMarine was one of the top 10 rated Protoss players ever. This was like in 2002. Even Boxer would occasionally play races other than Terran (see his Game-Q series with IntoTheRain). Eventually KeSPA forced certain rules about race selection. In the old days you would just show up and pick whatever race you wanted but now you cannot do that anymore -- your opponent is given a chance to prepare knowing what race you will come out as. I'm aware of that, I even reported TLPD errors of missing player races (for randoms/race-switchers) a few weeks ago when I ran my own TLPD scripts ( here). I wasn't disputing multiple races being used. If you check the nested discussion you quoted you'll see we were discussing whether or not H.O.T's reign was consecutive, and according to KeSPA's records it was not. Not sure what point you're trying to make.
Sorry, there seems to be a misunderstanding here. I was not trying to correct you; I was adding to your point.
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Oh, my bad. Wasn't following.
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I think Fantasy should be at least 8. He's better than Light and Soulkey, and is in a good standing in both individual leagues. But, well I can wait another month and see him much higher, no problem.
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On August 13 2011 23:52 Svennedude wrote:
only one toss in the power ranking :D
And it's Bisu lol. Protoss has been a pretty dead race now.
I'm not surprised Terran is #1. Zerg has always been #2 (Yellow, Jaedong)
Terran > Zerg > Protoss. That's how the scene has been for the last 10 years, and I think it will remain this way until the BW scene dies (if it dies)
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Pretty sure the scene is: Flash > Jaedong > Zerg > All
Jaedong's recent ZvZ problems are given a pass here, but I'm talking about SL winners from 2009 on.
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On August 14 2011 22:54 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 23:52 Svennedude wrote:
only one toss in the power ranking :D And it's Bisu lol. Protoss has been a pretty dead race now. I'm not surprised Terran is #1. Zerg has always been #2 (Yellow, Jaedong) Terran > Zerg > Protoss. That's how the scene has been for the last 10 years, and I think it will remain this way until the BW scene dies (if it dies)
I think it's funny you decide to post this when there are 3 terran and 6 zerg on the PR. Historically I'ld say yes T>all but since Savior, to me, it seems like T=Z>P.
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In individual leagues its closer to Flash > Z > T > P.
Z's have been dominating ro8/ro4's for a while now, and actually have several top contenders (even without JD).
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On August 15 2011 00:07 revy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:54 GhostOwl wrote:On August 13 2011 23:52 Svennedude wrote:
only one toss in the power ranking :D And it's Bisu lol. Protoss has been a pretty dead race now. I'm not surprised Terran is #1. Zerg has always been #2 (Yellow, Jaedong) Terran > Zerg > Protoss. That's how the scene has been for the last 10 years, and I think it will remain this way until the BW scene dies (if it dies) I think it's funny you decide to post this when there are 3 terran and 6 zerg on the PR. Historically I'ld say yes T>all but since Savior, to me, it seems like T=Z>P.
It's amazing how one person can change the entire perception of racial balance in a video game isn't it? Were it not for Flash we'd be making jokes about watching ZergCraft. Since 2007, besides Flash we've had 1 terran OSL winner and 2 MSL winners. In the post-Savior era only the Arena MSL (won by forgg) and Bigfile MSL (won by Flash) were terran dominated.
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On August 15 2011 02:16 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:07 revy wrote:On August 14 2011 22:54 GhostOwl wrote:On August 13 2011 23:52 Svennedude wrote:
only one toss in the power ranking :D And it's Bisu lol. Protoss has been a pretty dead race now. I'm not surprised Terran is #1. Zerg has always been #2 (Yellow, Jaedong) Terran > Zerg > Protoss. That's how the scene has been for the last 10 years, and I think it will remain this way until the BW scene dies (if it dies) I think it's funny you decide to post this when there are 3 terran and 6 zerg on the PR. Historically I'ld say yes T>all but since Savior, to me, it seems like T=Z>P. It's amazing how one person can change the entire perception of racial balance in a video game isn't it? Were it not for Flash we'd be making jokes about watching ZergCraft. Since 2007, besides Flash we've had 1 terran OSL winner and 2 MSL winners. In the post-Savior era only the Arena MSL (won by forgg) and Bigfile MSL (won by Flash) were terran dominated.
You could make a point that flash has knocked Leta and Fantasy out some times =D
And he knocked out free and kal out of like 5 semi finals last year, was sorta riddicolous
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Or maybe we can take a look at recent Leagues where Zergs knocked out most/all Protosses.. T_T sigh..
Is the current trend really that dark, or am i just depressed because of the lack of Bisu games in the last months? =/
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I think it's funny you decide to post this when there are 3 terran and 6 zerg on the PR. Historically I'ld say yes T>all but since Savior, to me, it seems like T=Z>P.
i do not agree, historically of course T owns all, but nowadays, if flash werent a progamer, we would see zerg sweeping out everything. look at jaedong, he lost three finals against flash , if it were for example another terran(or player), JD would had 8 leagues by now. and zero would have own a league as well, and so on for other swarm integrants, i mean look at recent leagues, its a zergfest all the way. for me sc is like this nowdays:
Flash>ALL
Z>T=P
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If we use the "If there wasn't Flash" argument, we would also have to use "If there wasn't Jaedong" argument as well or else it's not right.
My argument was about the dominance of the scene, meaning the top of the ladder. Counting the #8 or #9 of the PR isn't really to the point.
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On August 15 2011 07:56 GhostOwl wrote:
If we use the "If there wasn't Flash" argument, we would also have to use "If there wasn't Jaedong" argument as well or else it's not right.
My argument was about the dominance of the scene, meaning the top of the ladder. Counting the #8 or #9 of the PR isn't really to the point.
Take out Jaedong of the equation and you will see, from 2008 to now, there are more zerg champions than any of the other races (not counting repetition of the same player.)
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Canada2480 Posts
On August 15 2011 07:56 GhostOwl wrote:
If we use the "If there wasn't Flash" argument, we would also have to use "If there wasn't Jaedong" argument as well or else it's not right.
My argument was about the dominance of the scene, meaning the top of the ladder. Counting the #8 or #9 of the PR isn't really to the point.
god there are so many things wrong about counting the top of the scene as 2, 3 or 5 players. When doing this some statistical anomalies such as Flash and Bisu can push you to a blatantly wrong conclusion such as the scene is terran dominated right now, which is obviously false considering how many zerg players go deep in the starleagues. Using such a small sample size also fails to include the many protoss whom are regular proleague contributor and the many protoss players with a lot of potential going into next season.
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On August 15 2011 07:56 GhostOwl wrote:
If we use the "If there wasn't Flash" argument, we would also have to use "If there wasn't Jaedong" argument as well or else it's not right.
My argument was about the dominance of the scene, meaning the top of the ladder. Counting the #8 or #9 of the PR isn't really to the point.
Flash has won as many titles in the past year and a half as Jaedong has in his entire career. He grossly changes the curve on racial success more than any progamer ever.
If you take out Flash and Jaedong, Zerg is still far and above everyone else, anyhow.
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On August 15 2011 05:37 ffreakk wrote:
Or maybe we can take a look at recent Leagues where Zergs knocked out most/all Protosses.. T_T sigh..
Is the current trend really that dark, or am i just depressed because of the lack of Bisu games in the last months? =/
It is sad. The protoss that do make it through all get hydra-busted. The one protoss that can defend against hydra-busts can't make it through.
Tis a cruel situation
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Pull out Flash AND Jaedong and I'd say it's Z > T > P right now. T actually looks pretty deep, but Z's top arsenal is just too strong.
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If you want to have some more unbiased numbers about race dominance in broodwar, look at the statistics for the current season of SPL.
If you look at the overall win rates, you find:
TvZ: 106-93 (53.3%)
ZvP: 130-114 (53.3%)
PvT: 126-98 (56.3%)
Which enforces the classic T>Z>P>T paradigm of broodwar.
If you look at total games played, you find:
Zerg : 549
Protoss : 520
Terran: 486
In terms of total games played the zergs do dominate. This basically indicates that the coaches think that their zerg players (on average) have the best chance of winning.
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I'm not sure that it is valid to argue like this but I think that ff you take out Flash, other terrans that he has eliminated would probably have won and beat the zergs in the finals since terran historically beats zergs on the highest level: when protoss is not even in the competition in the sls anymore the best terran should have a very good shot at winning. Well, you would probably have to count Jaedong out too since he would have been the favorite against any non flash terran anyway.
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On August 15 2011 16:54 Mortality wrote:
Pull out Flash AND Jaedong and I'd say it's Z > T > P right now. T actually looks pretty deep, but Z's top arsenal is just too strong.
Poor P 
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EPT
