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On August 31 2010 18:30 p14c wrote: Of course Flash is the most dominant player in the last year! Almost all the time was Elo #1, Kespa #1, 5 consecutive finals, beat Jaedong almost every time: OSL, 2 MSL finals, KT won proleague for the first time with huge help from Flash (KTFlash remember?) etc. If Jaedong doesn't do something in OSL then Flash will get a huge lead in their rivalry 
lol I like how you say everytime when its only 1 ahead so far (when they have faced eachother). So 2 and 1 I guess that can be classified as almost everytime but thats only 1 more and Flash almost blew it after being ahead 2-0. I think in the OSL with a better map pool Jaedong will win this OSL ease .
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On August 31 2010 18:35 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 18:30 p14c wrote: Of course Flash is the most dominant player in the last year! Almost all the time was Elo #1, Kespa #1, 5 consecutive finals, beat Jaedong almost every time: OSL, 2 MSL finals, KT won proleague for the first time with huge help from Flash (KTFlash remember?) etc. If Jaedong doesn't do something in OSL then Flash will get a huge lead in their rivalry lol I like how you say everytime when its only 1 ahead so far (when they have faced eachother). So 2 and 1 I guess that can be classified as almost everytime but thats only 1 more and Flash almost blew it after being ahead 2-0. I think in the OSL with a better map pool Jaedong will win this OSL ease .
Besides Dreamliner, the map pool isn't so great imo. Polaris Rhapsody is in there too, Eye of the Storm is kind of a poor man's Fighting Spirit and while Grand Line is surely better than Odd-Eye, but it's still pretty easy for terran mech to get like two mains and syecure 6 bases.
Well, as I write this, it surely is much better than MSL, but not really zerg favoured, pretty balanced I would say. If PR is played twice again I will cry though.
Will be so funny when either Stork or Free ruins all this useless theorycraft (still don't see that happening though).
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On August 31 2010 17:55 okum wrote:
I want a new PR now :-/
If only so that, with the OSL games, there can be a PR next month as well that won't be meaningless.
me too.
And I can't stand what You talk about Flash and JD invincibility.
They got past semis 2:3 both. The line is thin.
Stop talking so weird shit O_o
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Waiting for new PR 
When will it be released?
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Canada2480 Posts
On August 31 2010 21:11 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 18:35 blade55555 wrote:On August 31 2010 18:30 p14c wrote: Of course Flash is the most dominant player in the last year! Almost all the time was Elo #1, Kespa #1, 5 consecutive finals, beat Jaedong almost every time: OSL, 2 MSL finals, KT won proleague for the first time with huge help from Flash (KTFlash remember?) etc. If Jaedong doesn't do something in OSL then Flash will get a huge lead in their rivalry lol I like how you say everytime when its only 1 ahead so far (when they have faced eachother). So 2 and 1 I guess that can be classified as almost everytime but thats only 1 more and Flash almost blew it after being ahead 2-0. I think in the OSL with a better map pool Jaedong will win this OSL ease . Besides Dreamliner, the map pool isn't so great imo. Polaris Rhapsody is in there too, Eye of the Storm is kind of a poor man's Fighting Spirit and while Grand Line is surely better than Odd-Eye, but it's still pretty easy for terran mech to get like two mains and syecure 6 bases. Well, as I write this, it surely is much better than MSL, but not really zerg favoured, pretty balanced I would say. If PR is played twice again I will cry though. Will be so funny when either Stork or Free ruins all this useless theorycraft (still don't see that happening though).
I agree that the map pool is not all that great for zerg(game 1 and 5 will only be on either EoTS which is kinda balanced and Grandline SE which is 60% TvZ), but Jaedong nearly won on a much worse map pool
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On August 31 2010 23:00 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 21:11 Malinor wrote:On August 31 2010 18:35 blade55555 wrote:On August 31 2010 18:30 p14c wrote: Of course Flash is the most dominant player in the last year! Almost all the time was Elo #1, Kespa #1, 5 consecutive finals, beat Jaedong almost every time: OSL, 2 MSL finals, KT won proleague for the first time with huge help from Flash (KTFlash remember?) etc. If Jaedong doesn't do something in OSL then Flash will get a huge lead in their rivalry lol I like how you say everytime when its only 1 ahead so far (when they have faced eachother). So 2 and 1 I guess that can be classified as almost everytime but thats only 1 more and Flash almost blew it after being ahead 2-0. I think in the OSL with a better map pool Jaedong will win this OSL ease . Besides Dreamliner, the map pool isn't so great imo. Polaris Rhapsody is in there too, Eye of the Storm is kind of a poor man's Fighting Spirit and while Grand Line is surely better than Odd-Eye, but it's still pretty easy for terran mech to get like two mains and syecure 6 bases. Well, as I write this, it surely is much better than MSL, but not really zerg favoured, pretty balanced I would say. If PR is played twice again I will cry though. Will be so funny when either Stork or Free ruins all this useless theorycraft (still don't see that happening though). I agree that the map pool is not all that great for zerg(game 1 and 5 will only be on either EoTS which is kinda balanced and Grandline SE which is 60% TvZ), but Jaedong nearly won on a much worse map pool
Then again, bullshit tends to happen sometimes when it's totally unexpected.
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United States7481 Posts
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On September 01 2010 00:26 Antoine wrote:
oi plexa, where are you?
Probably coming up with reasons to keep Jaedong #1.
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On September 01 2010 01:00 J1.au wrote:Probably coming up with reasons to keep Jaedong #1.
What? Plexa doesn't even like Jaedong.
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On August 31 2010 11:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:
What, you mean the paradigm hasn't shifted in three years? We've gone from protoss dominated to zerg dominated to, apparently now, terran dominated trends over these three years, and yet still when protoss were dominant, that's when Flash and Jaedong made their mark by taking their titles against the arguable #1 protoss of the time. When people are complaining about zergs and Jaedong dominating leagues, Flash comes in and starts making every finals like nothing -- despite terrans as a whole floundering out of every Ro16 and Ro8. It doesn't seem to matter what sub-era we're in in the modern era, it's seemingly punctuated by Flash and Jaedong ever since they showed up.
Sublte changes in builds and timings effecting metagame balance is NOT the same thing as the paradigm shifting. It's like saying a soccer ball is "rolling" when the wind makes it move a fraction of an inch.
What build you use and what timing you attack at is gravy. There has been no major change in how we think about this game at a fundamental level since Bisu took down Savior.
The fact that you so many people who are new to watching SC (<4 years of watching it) think that metagame is nothing more than trends in builds and timings is proof of this.
Maybe there's not enough left in the game for the massive sweeping shifts in gameplay that happened betwixt bonjwas,
I acknowledge that this may be true. And if it is, it will be impossible to ever truly compare how Flash and JD stack up.
but it's been 3 years since Jaedong was #1 and he's still around barking up that spot, taking the assumed #1 to a fifth set on horrible maps. The game's changed a lot since Jaedong and Flash cracked Stork (and every other top gamer on the way to their titles, too, it's not just who you faced in the finals that makes your run impressive), but they're not only still "good players" like the bonjwas were after their limelight, they're the best players. I think only Nada has a distinction like that.
The difference is that back then changes in how we thought about this game at a fundamental level were happening much, much more rapidly. Even when you look at the bonjwas, the way they were playing and thinking about the game at the time they entered "god mode" was vastly different than when they were dethroned.
To compare, the way that NaDa changed as a gamer in his 3 seasons of dominance was perhaps comparable to how Jaedong has changed over those 3 years you mention.
I think Oov and Boxer had a comparable amount of time as the top players to what Flash and Jaedong currently have, but even they didn't replicate what Flash and Jaedong have done. Oov may have a lot of titles -- as many as Jaedong -- but he obviously didn't make as many finals in nearly as difficult a climate. Flash, well, Flash has given us 3 seasons no one can compare to in my opinion.
The problem here is that you keep assuming that the climate was somehow much, much easier for the past progamers. This is a huuuuuuuuuuuge misconception.
In modern Starcraft, rather than thinking about beating opponents one at a time, the key to being successful is to think about beating the current metagame builds and timings. And there's very little variation in these from one player to another.
Many years ago when so much less was understood about this game you had to adapt much, much faster. Otherwise you found yourself unexpectedly losing to players nowhere near your skill (Hi, Froz beating Boxer twice in WCG -- Boxer, who pioneered more than any other gamer in history, then borrowed Froz's build in some of his later games). Let's forget Flash for a minute: Idra's chances to win against any top Terran (Fantasy, Sea, Light, etc.) twice in as many games is ridiculously small.
So even if the skill gap was greater back then, it didn't show in win percentages. If anything, I'd say it's easier to get a very high win percentage today. Many gamers other than Flash and Jaedong have achieved 70+% wins in at least one match-up over a period of 12 months or longer. There was a time when achieving 70% wins over just 30 games was basically unheard of.
Of course Flash and Jaedong are amazing and of course they epitomize the modern Starcraft gamer. But you are seriously undervaluing just how special, influential, and dominant the bonjwas were. There is no such thing as "above bonjwa." Maybe if you can define MULTIPLE eras and have bonjwa-level dominance in each of them. And NaDa very nearly did that.
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On September 01 2010 01:00 J1.au wrote:Probably coming up with reasons to keep Jaedong #1.
Bwahaha, Plexa is the #1 Jaedong anti-fan, I don't think you have to worry much about Flash being #2, because he won't, unless Plexa releases the Power Rank after SL finals.
On topic of the maps, the OSL is much more favorable for zerg.
In terms of Zerg favorability:
Dreamliner > Triathlon
EotS > OddEye
Grand Line > Polaris if x2
The only map in MSL that is more favorable than an OSL counter-part is Fighting Spirit.
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On September 01 2010 01:36 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 11:51 TwoToneTerran wrote:
What, you mean the paradigm hasn't shifted in three years? We've gone from protoss dominated to zerg dominated to, apparently now, terran dominated trends over these three years, and yet still when protoss were dominant, that's when Flash and Jaedong made their mark by taking their titles against the arguable #1 protoss of the time. When people are complaining about zergs and Jaedong dominating leagues, Flash comes in and starts making every finals like nothing -- despite terrans as a whole floundering out of every Ro16 and Ro8. It doesn't seem to matter what sub-era we're in in the modern era, it's seemingly punctuated by Flash and Jaedong ever since they showed up. Sublte changes in builds and timings effecting metagame balance is NOT the same thing as the paradigm shifting. It's like saying a soccer ball is "rolling" when the wind makes it move a fraction of an inch. What build you use and what timing you attack at is gravy. There has been no major change in how we think about this game at a fundamental level since Bisu took down Savior. The fact that you so many people who are new to watching SC (<4 years of watching it) think that metagame is nothing more than trends in builds and timings is proof of this. Show nested quote +Maybe there's not enough left in the game for the massive sweeping shifts in gameplay that happened betwixt bonjwas, I acknowledge that this may be true. And if it is, it will be impossible to ever truly compare how Flash and JD stack up. Show nested quote +but it's been 3 years since Jaedong was #1 and he's still around barking up that spot, taking the assumed #1 to a fifth set on horrible maps. The game's changed a lot since Jaedong and Flash cracked Stork (and every other top gamer on the way to their titles, too, it's not just who you faced in the finals that makes your run impressive), but they're not only still "good players" like the bonjwas were after their limelight, they're the best players. I think only Nada has a distinction like that. The difference is that back then changes in how we thought about this game at a fundamental level were happening much, much more rapidly. Even when you look at the bonjwas, the way they were playing and thinking about the game at the time they entered "god mode" was vastly different than when they were dethroned. To compare, the way that NaDa changed as a gamer in his 3 seasons of dominance was perhaps comparable to how Jaedong has changed over those 3 years you mention. Show nested quote +I think Oov and Boxer had a comparable amount of time as the top players to what Flash and Jaedong currently have, but even they didn't replicate what Flash and Jaedong have done. Oov may have a lot of titles -- as many as Jaedong -- but he obviously didn't make as many finals in nearly as difficult a climate. Flash, well, Flash has given us 3 seasons no one can compare to in my opinion. The problem here is that you keep assuming that the climate was somehow much, much easier for the past progamers. This is a huuuuuuuuuuuge misconception. In modern Starcraft, rather than thinking about beating opponents one at a time, the key to being successful is to think about beating the current metagame builds and timings. And there's very little variation in these from one player to another. Many years ago when so much less was understood about this game you had to adapt much, much faster. Otherwise you found yourself unexpectedly losing to players nowhere near your skill (Hi, Froz beating Boxer twice in WCG -- Boxer, who pioneered more than any other gamer in history, then borrowed Froz's build in some of his later games). Let's forget Flash for a minute: Idra's chances to win against any top Terran (Fantasy, Sea, Light, etc.) twice in as many games is ridiculously small. So even if the skill gap was greater back then, it didn't show in win percentages. If anything, I'd say it's easier to get a very high win percentage today. Many gamers other than Flash and Jaedong have achieved 70+% wins in at least one match-up over a period of 12 months or longer. There was a time when achieving 70% wins over just 30 games was basically unheard of. Of course Flash and Jaedong are amazing and of course they epitomize the modern Starcraft gamer. But you are seriously undervaluing just how special, influential, and dominant the bonjwas were. There is no such thing as "above bonjwa." Maybe if you can define MULTIPLE eras and have bonjwa-level dominance in each of them. And NaDa very nearly did that.
I don't think the game has "subtly" changed, that's a bit disingenuous. TvZ has massively changed over the past three years -- going from pure bio being the bread and butter to pure mech, to even valkyries being used to counter the long-held tried and true zerg strategy of 2hatch mutas. Just this year alone we've come into several TvZ altering builds like Bio->Mech and things like Midas Goliath MnM push and, well the several kinds of mech mnm compositions --not just pushes-- that Flash has created. I'm not sure if it's on the level of changing the "way we think about the game," But the way we think about TvZ has been turned on its head a few times in this year alone.
I'd say TvP is similar. In 07 carriers were the unstoppable bane of all terrans. 3 base carrier attacks wrecked everyone ala Stork. Then 2008 rolls around and, suddenly, lategame PvT is nothing like it used to be. Instead of Carrier/Goon/Templar being the predominant PvT choice, it's Arbiter/Zealot/Goon. Protoss more and more forego reavers -- a previously common sight -- as it's no longer pertinent to transition into carriers. Everything short of early game PvT has been turned around. Arbiters were in their heyday up until this very year, where now we're seeing carriers en masse. This may be an issue with the maps moreso than anything, but the first transition was entirely because of effective build orders destroying the PvT metagame as it had existed for years.
I think ZvP's changes have all been subtle if you want to count Bisu as one of the bonjwatic changes, but Bisu obviously isn't a bonjwa so I don't think that's fair. PvZ had one sweeping, enormous change when Bisu burst onto the scene, and since then the imbalanced PvZ had suddenly fallen into favor for protoss. Zergs, ever the adaptable lot, changed this around, even going so far as to turn seemingly protoss favored maps into Zerg favored maps with intelligent new tactics (muta snipe into spread out, high ground lurker defense), and now, for this year, muta snipes have been way less common. I think it may have to do with just plain better unit composition to counter muta/lurker (hi dragoons), but most PvZ have become either early hydra busts or long, drawn out games. A real difference from Zerg just playing it ZvT style and "sniping" things with mutas before cracking the protoss egg with hive units.
These changes aren't as exactly massive as the Bonjwas -- mostly because the playstyles are "standardized," or, to be less patronizing, less volatile than the Bonjwas, in retrospect, were.
anyhow, Flash doesn't need multiple eras to purport his dominance as greater than the Bonjwas. He's already shown more dominance and similar innovation over this past year, which is an increasingly similar timeframe to the others. Jaedong is a type of player that honestly is hard to compare to the bonjwas. He had stretches where he won multiple titles in a row, but never "dominated" the scene like a bonjwa. He's got the title and accomplishment count that dwarfs anyone but Nada, but not even the same aura as savior apparently. He seems like some amalgamation of July and Nada to me -- massively successful ala Nada but less recognized than the Bonjwas ala July.
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On September 01 2010 01:00 J1.au wrote:Probably coming up with reasons to keep Jaedong #1.
lol, are you new to TL?
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To be fair, the past 2 months have had oddly ranked #1s. :D
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Canada2480 Posts
On September 01 2010 03:14 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 01:00 J1.au wrote:On September 01 2010 00:26 Antoine wrote:
oi plexa, where are you? Probably coming up with reasons to keep Jaedong #1. lol, are you new to TL?
LOL
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On September 01 2010 03:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:
To be fair, the past 2 months have had oddly ranked #1s. :D
true, imo in last month flash should be #1 and the month before flash should be #1 
and I don't buy difference in changing over the period of one game
and if so than why flash has the longest streaks of wins (longer than oov)?
and all zergs before sAviOr were effort-like, and now we have effort so I don't see where it is that You* can see that everything changed. Same partially applies to jaedong. First mark of any newborn zerg is anger in his eyes. Flash has more in common with oov and nada than with his famous rival, metagame is secondary. And player from who jd drains the most is Savior and I hope that with reasonable map pool, in coming season a protoss will emerge that will do what bisu did but longer but I fear that it is not possible with that imbalanced when playing 'S' class matches race.
*not the one I quoted, hm.
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On August 31 2010 18:35 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 18:30 p14c wrote: Of course Flash is the most dominant player in the last year! Almost all the time was Elo #1, Kespa #1, 5 consecutive finals, beat Jaedong almost every time: OSL, 2 MSL finals, KT won proleague for the first time with huge help from Flash (KTFlash remember?) etc. If Jaedong doesn't do something in OSL then Flash will get a huge lead in their rivalry lol I like how you say everytime when its only 1 ahead so far (when they have faced eachother). So 2 and 1 I guess that can be classified as almost everytime but thats only 1 more and Flash almost blew it after being ahead 2-0. I think in the OSL with a better map pool Jaedong will win this OSL ease .
The maps didn't really play a factor in the MSL. Outside the last game on Polaris the games had basically nothing to do with the maps, you could argue that the JD was overcompensating on Odd Eye for an assumed late game threat but thats a stretch. I was very impressed with the game on Fighting spirit but I would still favor FlaSh in the OSL unfortunately
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On September 01 2010 06:56 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 18:35 blade55555 wrote:On August 31 2010 18:30 p14c wrote: Of course Flash is the most dominant player in the last year! Almost all the time was Elo #1, Kespa #1, 5 consecutive finals, beat Jaedong almost every time: OSL, 2 MSL finals, KT won proleague for the first time with huge help from Flash (KTFlash remember?) etc. If Jaedong doesn't do something in OSL then Flash will get a huge lead in their rivalry lol I like how you say everytime when its only 1 ahead so far (when they have faced eachother). So 2 and 1 I guess that can be classified as almost everytime but thats only 1 more and Flash almost blew it after being ahead 2-0. I think in the OSL with a better map pool Jaedong will win this OSL ease . The maps didn't really play a factor in the MSL. Outside the last game on Polaris the games had basically nothing to do with the maps, you could argue that the JD was overcompensating on Odd Eye for an assumed late game threat but thats a stretch. I was very impressed with the game on Fighting spirit but I would still favor FlaSh in the OSL unfortunately
Flash knocked the Dong out of the OSL ro8 as well so it's 3-1 in the two major leagues.
However, I think people are underestimating the "underdog" effect. The MSL was the rubber match and I don't think either player felt like they were ahead or behind, but for this OSL it feels like Jaedong MUST win, not just for himself but for the sake of all other progamers. He's the last obstacle to an unparalleled year of success by Flash. And for himself, personally, to lose a third straight final would be even more unacceptable than what has already happened.
Flash has put a serious dent in JD's bo5 aura. I think JD is still the best bo5 player and it's evidenced by his ability to come back from deficits time and time again (Flash hasn't been down a game in a bo5 since MVP which barely counts). But Flash has now beaten Jaedong twice in bo5's including both a 3-0 and a game 5. Jaedong is the clear underdog here, maybe not in terms of likelihood to win (which is the usual definition of underdog) but simply in terms of raw momentum.
I personally think Jaedong is 55% to win (especially since he basically needs to go 2-2 with Dreamliner in the pool, and yes he will win on Dreamliner just like how Flash abused the PR/Odd Eye metagame to cleanly win all 3 of those games in the MSL), even though I'm a Flash fan.
No matter what Flash tries to tell himself I don't think he can convince himself he's the underdog here. Whereas Jaedong definitely needs no convincing.
Edit: It'll be funny if one or both of them fail to make the finals. I'm actually hoping for a Stork/Flash rematch, a proper bookend to Flash's career as SC ends, haha =(
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Canada2480 Posts
On September 01 2010 06:56 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 18:35 blade55555 wrote:On August 31 2010 18:30 p14c wrote: Of course Flash is the most dominant player in the last year! Almost all the time was Elo #1, Kespa #1, 5 consecutive finals, beat Jaedong almost every time: OSL, 2 MSL finals, KT won proleague for the first time with huge help from Flash (KTFlash remember?) etc. If Jaedong doesn't do something in OSL then Flash will get a huge lead in their rivalry lol I like how you say everytime when its only 1 ahead so far (when they have faced eachother). So 2 and 1 I guess that can be classified as almost everytime but thats only 1 more and Flash almost blew it after being ahead 2-0. I think in the OSL with a better map pool Jaedong will win this OSL ease . The maps didn't really play a factor in the MSL. Outside the last game on Polaris the games had basically nothing to do with the maps, you could argue that the JD was overcompensating on Odd Eye for an assumed late game threat but thats a stretch. I was very impressed with the game on Fighting spirit but I would still favor FlaSh in the OSL unfortunately
Yeah but the threat of an unfavorable map might cause someone to alter his play,
example: Flash might lose with a pre-muta timing attack, because he don't want to have to defend mutas, but, had it been Fighting spirit then Flash might have won with standard play.
the threat of it being dreamliner causes Flash to go for a cheesy strategy and makes him lose
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On September 01 2010 07:23 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 06:56 n.DieJokes wrote:On August 31 2010 18:35 blade55555 wrote:On August 31 2010 18:30 p14c wrote: Of course Flash is the most dominant player in the last year! Almost all the time was Elo #1, Kespa #1, 5 consecutive finals, beat Jaedong almost every time: OSL, 2 MSL finals, KT won proleague for the first time with huge help from Flash (KTFlash remember?) etc. If Jaedong doesn't do something in OSL then Flash will get a huge lead in their rivalry lol I like how you say everytime when its only 1 ahead so far (when they have faced eachother). So 2 and 1 I guess that can be classified as almost everytime but thats only 1 more and Flash almost blew it after being ahead 2-0. I think in the OSL with a better map pool Jaedong will win this OSL ease . The maps didn't really play a factor in the MSL. Outside the last game on Polaris the games had basically nothing to do with the maps, you could argue that the JD was overcompensating on Odd Eye for an assumed late game threat but thats a stretch. I was very impressed with the game on Fighting spirit but I would still favor FlaSh in the OSL unfortunately Yeah but the threat of an unfavorable map might cause someone to alter his play, example: Flash might lose with a pre-muta timing attack, because he don't want to have to defend mutas, but, had it been Fighting spirit then Flash might have won with standard play. the threat of it being dreamliner causes Flash to go for a cheesy strategy and makes him lose
Right, for instance watch as the Dong goes for a Lurker strategy or something that takes advantage of the fact that Terran is condemned to slow their development by spending tons of minerals on Turrets. Known map imbalance always plays a factor, even when the traditional imbalance itself is not exploited.
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EPT
