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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On August 31 2010 09:36 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's ridiculous to call either one a bonjwa because they're way past that level. :p Well of course they're playing better than any of the bonjwas, but so are lesser players like Movie and great. The game's evolved. The bonjwas were special because they dominated the scene. If the other didn't exist, Jaedong and Flash would be bonjwas. | ||
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Ideas
United States8180 Posts
On August 31 2010 10:09 jalstar wrote: Well of course they're playing better than any of the bonjwas, but so are lesser players like Movie and great. The game's evolved. The bonjwas were special because they dominated the scene. If the other didn't exist, Jaedong and Flash would be bonjwas. I think TwoToneTerran has a point. JD and flash have dominated the scene for over 2 years now. what was the average bonjwa lifespan, a year? 18 months? | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
It's symptomatic of the amount of games and the amount of strong players there are now, but these aren't things that should take away from Flash and Jaedong's accomplishments. Jaedong's only behind one bonjwa so far in titles and Flash, while only just now tying savior, has put on stretches of sheer dominance that dwarf even Oov. The two have hit an amazing plateau and I think comparing them to the bonjwas is disingenuous to just what they're doing. Someone said earlier about bonjwas being players who redefine the game for the future, but Flash and Jaedong aren't redefining the game. They are the epitome of the game as we've seen it so far. Bonjwas are dethroned by obvious holes in their play. Flash and Jaedong challenge each other on a constant basis and neither is "dethroned" -- they constantly and amazingly do nothing but get better. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
And I think the point about maintaining comparable win percentages to the bonjwas despite the skill gap being smaller is very misleading. Modernization of the game has driven Starcraft away from being fundamentally directionless and towards being mapped out with less and less variation in how the game is played from one player to another. Flash and Jaedong may make slight adjustments when facing one player or another, but they don't have to completely rethink strategies the way Boxer would have to when going from playing JinNam to playing Yellow. It's a different world. Flash and Jaedong have the benefit of all the knowledge acquired by the bonjwas and other S-class players before them. There's almost nothing new that can be added to the game. When was the last time you saw anything that made you rethink Starcraft? How do you expect someone to overcome Flash and Jaedong if not by something new? By becoming a 9000 apm machine with perfect coordination and equal understanding of the already mapped out strategies? The bonjwas were defeated by new thoughts, yes -- but it TOOK new thoughts to bring them down. And no bonjwa was ever dethroned by an "obvious hole." You only say that because you didn't experience them or else you would know better. No bonjwa would ever have been bonjwa if the "hole" in their game was obvious. That's silly talk. Bonjwas are defeated by a shift in paradigm. Even then, Boxer, Oov, NaDa, and even Savior were still very, very strong players after the paradigm had shifted, because the same skills that got them to bonjwahood helped them understand the changes in the game. Will the paradigm ever shift again? Who knows. Maybe. And THAT will be the true test of how good Flash and Jaedong are. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Maybe there's not enough left in the game for the massive sweeping shifts in gameplay that happened betwixt bonjwas, but it's been 3 years since Jaedong was #1 and he's still around barking up that spot, taking the assumed #1 to a fifth set on horrible maps. The game's changed a lot since Jaedong and Flash cracked Stork (and every other top gamer on the way to their titles, too, it's not just who you faced in the finals that makes your run impressive), but they're not only still "good players" like the bonjwas were after their limelight, they're the best players. I think only Nada has a distinction like that. I think Oov and Boxer had a comparable amount of time as the top players to what Flash and Jaedong currently have, but even they didn't replicate what Flash and Jaedong have done. Oov may have a lot of titles -- as many as Jaedong -- but he obviously didn't make as many finals in nearly as difficult a climate. Flash, well, Flash has given us 3 seasons no one can compare to in my opinion. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
Like 2001 was Boxer's era, 2002-03 was Nada's, 2004 was oov's, 2005 no one really dominated, 2006 was Savior's, 2007-09 no one really dominated, and 2010 is the era of Flash and Jaedong. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On August 31 2010 12:15 jalstar wrote: Maybe Jaedong and Flash can be co-bonjwas? Like 2001 was Boxer's era, 2002-03 was Nada's, 2004 was oov's, 2005 no one really dominated, 2006 was Savior's, 2007-09 no one really dominated, and 2010 is the era of Flash and Jaedong. 07-10 is the era of TaekBangLeeSsang at different times. Having 2 is a contradiction of bonjwa. Besides, they really haven't displaced TaekBang or other near S-class like Effort(sometimes) or Fantasy. Just that the 2 protoss started to slump and the other 2 are slightly worse(but still pose a greater threat to Flash/Jaedong than Midas/nal_rA ever did to Savior etc.). If Bisu played at his prime form or if Stork did the same, they could take plenty of games off Flash and Jaedong. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
It's also telling that their "prime" coincided with protoss favored maps. Despite that that's when Flash and Jaedong emerged, and when the map tides turn it seems like our protoss messiahs are nowhere to be found. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
And 2 things about maps. Protoss are gayed the worst by bad maps. Seriously. Remember tears of the protoss? The only players to ever win ZvP on that map were Kal and BlackHo, against Firefist and Zergbong, 2 bonjwas, and those were the first 2 games. It's a lot worse than Zergliner because there's really nothing you can do. And the second thing is that Bisu was for a long time #1 on Fighting Spirit, probably the MOST balanced map. Only good on protoss maps? I think not. | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
On August 31 2010 12:56 Lightwip wrote: 07-10 is the era of TaekBangLeeSsang at different times. Having 2 is a contradiction of bonjwa. Besides, they really haven't displaced TaekBang or other near S-class like Effort(sometimes) or Fantasy. Just that the 2 protoss started to slump and the other 2 are slightly worse(but still pose a greater threat to Flash/Jaedong than Midas/nal_rA ever did to Savior etc.). If Bisu played at his prime form or if Stork did the same, they could take plenty of games off Flash and Jaedong. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you actually arguing Effort and Fantasy are actually close to the skill level of Flash and Jaedong and even closer to them then ra/midas/chojja/nada were to Savior? Because if you are, I think you are seriously misguided. Even during Savior's reign he never made dual-consecutive finals (almost three for Flash now) and never made a final 8 out of 9 seasons in a row. Individual leagues have almost gotten boring to watch simply because now we know it's almost certain Jaedong or Flash will be the winner. I don't think you could have ever said the same for any past player. If Jaedong and Flash both make SL final again, then Effort will be the only person to won in the last year, and that was off of a fluke comeback with all-in lings. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On August 31 2010 15:41 setzer wrote: Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you actually arguing Effort and Fantasy are actually close to the skill level of Flash and Jaedong and even closer to them then ra/midas/chojja/nada were to Savior? Because if you are, I think you are seriously misguided. Even during Savior's reign he never made dual-consecutive finals (almost three for Flash now) and never made a final 8 out of 9 seasons in a row. Individual leagues have almost gotten boring to watch simply because now we know it's almost certain Jaedong or Flash will be the winner. I don't think you could have ever said the same for any past player. If Jaedong and Flash both make SL final again, then Effort will be the only person to won in the last year, and that was off of a fluke comeback with all-in lings. Effort was really good back in 09, I thought he was worth mentioning. But Fantasy is a better example. He can take games and series off TaekBangLeeSsang, but he definitely is inferior. That's how I'd say Midas was, the player closest to Savior during his time. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On August 31 2010 15:22 Lightwip wrote: Bisu beating Jaedong on a particularly bad PvZ map with Jaedong playing pretty well proves that he most certainly can do it. Stork definitely has his PvT S-class on his good days. Worse players have outplayed current JD/Flash, I think Bisu/Stork could potentially take a series off JD/Flash if they're in top form. And 2 things about maps. Protoss are gayed the worst by bad maps. Seriously. Remember tears of the protoss? The only players to ever win ZvP on that map were Kal and BlackHo, against Firefist and Zergbong, 2 bonjwas, and those were the first 2 games. It's a lot worse than Zergliner because there's really nothing you can do. And the second thing is that Bisu was for a long time #1 on Fighting Spirit, probably the MOST balanced map. Only good on protoss maps? I think not. Indeed, Bisu and Stork are very good, and they can show it when the maps don't bite Protoss in the ass. (Although Judgment Day is acceptable for Protoss.) This past Proleague season had Tornado, Neo Tornado, Roadrunner, Moon Glaive, and Neo Moon Glaive to rape the Protoss. It also had Heartbreak Ridge right after hydra --> muta sniping --> lurkers became popular, which became New Heartbreak Ridge so that it no longer favored Protoss versus Terran, and then was erased around the time Protoss was assembling a response to the Zerg victory build. The Protoss havens for most of this season were balanced maps, like Match Point and Fighting Spirit, or maps that were a-little-bit-but-not-very bad for Protoss. Once Polaris Rhapsody rolled around and the FUCK YOU PROTOSS maps faded from the pool, Protoss had a resurgence. | ||
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nodule
Canada931 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On August 31 2010 17:39 nodule wrote: Jaedong vs. Flash in OSL finals seems so ridiculously inevitable that I'm getting a feeling that it's not going to happen. There is an inherent disorder in SC that makes it unpredictable right when it seems most predictable Stork fighting. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
I want Stork to win this OSL rather than Jaedong. But the decision woulda been easier to make if JD had won MSL. Maybe he can win in my 4pool fantasy world  | ||
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okum
France5779 Posts
If only so that, with the OSL games, there can be a PR next month as well that won't be meaningless. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
I like Jaedong and seeing him lose games is never good, but there's an exception there if he's beaten by anyone SKT or Stork. | ||
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p14c
Vatican City State431 Posts
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