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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On August 30 2010 09:21 Loffeman wrote: I dont get why JD didn't 4 pool last game. It was obvious that Flash would go for depot and try to get wall and that wall wouldn't be near to done when lings would arrive right? Because JD decided that he shouldn't adapt, ever. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4830 Posts
On August 30 2010 09:34 Lightwip wrote: Because JD decided that he shouldn't adapt, ever. Come to think of it, I'm wondering if 4pool is viable in a Finals match. If a massive crowd is freaking the fuck out a few seconds into the game, that might give it away. Depends just how isolated the booths are from vibrations and stuff. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5585 Posts
On August 30 2010 10:00 Severedevil wrote: Come to think of it, I'm wondering if 4pool is viable in a Finals match. If a massive crowd is freaking the fuck out a few seconds into the game, that might give it away. Depends just how isolated the booths are from vibrations and stuff. omfg... if this is right  But I don't think so, because then the players should be able to guess forward 8 rax etc as well. Right? | ||
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revy
United States1524 Posts
On August 30 2010 10:00 Severedevil wrote: Come to think of it, I'm wondering if 4pool is viable in a Finals match. If a massive crowd is freaking the fuck out a few seconds into the game, that might give it away. Depends just how isolated the booths are from vibrations and stuff. Didn't stop July from 4-pooling Best in the first set of the finals a few years back. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On August 30 2010 10:00 Severedevil wrote: Come to think of it, I'm wondering if 4pool is viable in a Finals match. If a massive crowd is freaking the fuck out a few seconds into the game, that might give it away. Depends just how isolated the booths are from vibrations and stuff. July vs Best Ever 2008. They're in soundproof booths wearing earmuffs over headphones, they probably won't hear a thing. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 30 2010 09:21 L0thar wrote: Um, where does that bolded part come from? You listed some amazing things Boxer did for the game, but that doesn't really imply that Flash is behind in terms of flexibility...actualy in terms of anything. Boxer invented so many things because he was fucking awesome...and because there were simply more things to invent back than. You can't really compare Boxer who played at the dawn of SC progaming practicaly unknown game and Flash who is playing game that was intensively studied for years. But luckily, we can compare how they influence the game right now. Flash directly and Boxer with Oov through Fantasy. And I would say, Flash is holding his ground damn well! It certainly is true that it's different comparing SC today with SC back then and what you can do/could do, whatever, to adapt to your opponents, invent strategies, change the game and so on and so forth. The skill gap has closed tremendously, and yet with each passing year, it seems like the top gamers get further and further ahead in win percentage. Why? Because strategies converge more and more and more. As I said, after Savior there was only a right approach to Starcraft. The game has changed a lot from back when you could surprise players vastly superior to you in every possible way just because you've seen The Stove and they haven't to today where builds and common insight into the game have made it so that the better player is almost sure to win, even in ZvZ. (One could argue that this also started with Savior, whose ZvZ was winning 70% or so at the height of his dominance in 2006/early 2007. Modern SC began with him although it certainly won't end with him!) So yes, you're right, it's a hard comparison. Flash adapting means losing a game and then going back to the lab again to figure out how to alter his strategy to not lose. He creates these metagame catch-alls. What I mean by that is that he designs strategies that effectively deal with every major metagame strategy against Terran, effectively using his own experiences to test and tweak these strategies. But for Flash to adapt, he has to lose. Otherwise he won't see what's wrong, won't be able to study it, and won't be able to fix it. The old bonjwas had this remarkable ability to rethink their strategies even over the course of the game. Would Flash have been able to do so if he grew up in that era? I honestly don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. Is it possible to do what the old bonjwas did in this modern era now? Maybe, although clearly to a lesser extent (at the highest level, one major screw up is extremely costly to try to salvage and turn into a win, although definitely not impossible, even between Flash and Jaedong). But that's what they were able to do. And it lead to some... rather interesting come backs. Some matches where trying to determine the winner or loser was damn near impossible until the very last second, even if it seemed obvious at several points. Of course, as you pointed out, this was also a factor of the times. Players were used to playing a somewhat directionless game of Starcraft so they were used to just winging it. But I'd still call them more flexible for it. Hell, for that matter, I find Jaedong more flexible than Flash, even if I think Flash is stronger overall. I tend to think that Flash is better at designing catch-alls, while Jaedong is better at dealing with a specific opponent. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
I'm inclined to think that even if they haven't been given the titles, Flash and Jaedong -- considering how ridiculous both of them look right now -- both deserve to be mentioned as bonjwa. The only person to make more finals than JD is NaDa. Only NaDa is ahead in gold medal count. Only Oov is tied. Nobody ever before made 5 finals in 1 year. Nobody has matched Flash's 12 month win record. Chances are they will meet again in OSL finals. It's very likely that at least 1 finals next season will be a Flash/JD meeting. If a bonjwa normally makes 3 finals in a row, what can be said about two players who face each other in the finals 3 season in a row? It's like if Michael Johnson and Usain Bolt were running the 200m against each other both at their respective World Record speeds. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 30 2010 12:01 Lightwip wrote: I think the title of Bonjwa has pretty much been replaced by the S class after savior, because the game pretty much developed every aspect of modern macro-oriented play. The title of bonjwa was originally something July fans gave to July. It wasn't until late in the Savior era that people started referring to Boxer, NaDa, Oov and Savior as the bonjwas. So no, I don't think Savior killed the word bonjwa. Especially not considering how well he defined it. Nobody else was close to him in skill. Nowhere close. Undisputed #1 of that era. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On August 30 2010 13:00 Mortality wrote: The title of bonjwa was originally something July fans gave to July. It wasn't until late in the Savior era that people started referring to Boxer, NaDa, Oov and Savior as the bonjwas. So no, I don't think Savior killed the word bonjwa. Especially not considering how well he defined it. Nobody else was close to him in skill. Nowhere close. Undisputed #1 of that era. It's not that savior killed it, it's just that it's a major marking in starcraft time. Bonjwa applies to an age that ended 3 years ago. Modern 2300's have too much competition to be bonjwa. On another note, wtf Boxer never hit 2300. The only bonjwa that didn't. | ||
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revy
United States1524 Posts
On August 30 2010 13:46 Lightwip wrote: It's not that savior killed it, it's just that it's a major marking in starcraft time. Bonjwa applies to an age that ended 3 years ago. Modern 2300's have too much competition to be bonjwa. On another note, wtf Boxer never hit 2300. The only bonjwa that didn't. I dunno though, the age of bonjwas may not yet be done. Flash has been to 5 of 6 finals in 1 year (with the potential for 6/6). JD has been to 1 finals every season for the past 5 seasons now (with the potential of 6 finals in 5 seasons). Put that together - 5 seasons - 10 finals - 20 finalists - Flash and JD represent 11 of the 20, over half (with 2 as yet undecided, potentially 13)! Sure there is competition, but these two have just been a whole step above everybody for almost 2 years now. I find it hard pressed not to call each of them a bonjwa, particularly if they both make the OSL finals. 2 Bonjwas have existed at the same time, but never had their peaks overlap quite as well as Flash/JD. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 30 2010 14:18 revy wrote: I dunno though, the age of bonjwas may not yet be done. Flash has been to 5 of 6 finals in 1 year (with the potential for 6/6). JD has been to 1 finals every season for the past 5 seasons now (with the potential of 6 finals in 5 seasons). Put that together - 5 seasons - 10 finals - 20 finalists - Flash and JD represent 11 of the 20, over half (with 2 as yet undecided, potentially 13)! Sure there is competition, but these two have just been a whole step above everybody for almost 2 years now. I find it hard pressed not to call each of them a bonjwa, particularly if they both make the OSL finals. 2 Bonjwas have existed at the same time, but never had their peaks overlap quite as well as Flash/JD. Agreed. The major change is that we've gone from one definitive bonjwa to two people who simultaneously fit the bill and would earn the label if not for the other one. Since Savior's fall, here is the complete list of finalists in Starleagues (GOMTV not counted): Jaedong 8 Flash 6 Stork 4 Bisu 3* Fantasy 2 Jangbi 2 GGplay 1 Iris 1 Mind 1 Kal 1 July 1 Best 1 ForGG 1 Luxury 1 Yellow[arnc] Calm 1 Kwanro 1 Movie 1 Effort 1 Total: 38 *does not count finals appearance before or during the season Savior last made a finals 14 (37%) appearances by Flash and JD alone, 25 (66%) appearances by players who have more than once made a final. For grins and giggles, let's count GOMTV (Classic, not the Star Invitational, although that was a Flash vs Stork finals and would only help argue the point): Jaedong 9 Flash 8 Stork 4 Bisu 4 Jangbi 3 Fantasy 2 Iris 2 GGplay 1 Mind 1 Kal 1 July 1 Best 1 ForGG 1 Luxury 1 Yellow[arnc] Calm 1 Kwanro 1 Movie 1 Effort 1 Total: 44 17 (39%) appearances by Flash and JD alone, 32 (73%) appearances by players that have more than once made a finals. Individual leagues have been pretty heavily dominated by the same small list of names. As they always have been. You look at other time periods and that "S-class" club has always been there. Consider 2005 (kind of long, don't read if you don't care): + Show Spoiler + Oov is reigning Bonjwa and wins an OSL in this time, NaDa makes both OSL and MSL finals in the same season (2004-2005, YATGK+IOPS), Boxer is still S-class and proves it by making the SO1 finals (after having appeared in the EVER 04 finals a year earlier), Xellos is indisputably S-class, and Goodfriend, for all the hate, is really strong, making Ro4 in IOPS and then making the finals of.... I think it was EVER 05 OSL. Also, Sea debuts this year and stuns everyone with his amazing play and potential -- a potential that would never earn him a finals appearance even though he deserves one more than many others have. That's the Terran S-class alone. Protoss has a bad year, but Anytime wins a SL, Pusan makes the Ro4 twice in OSL, and Reach makes the MSL finals after beating the absurdly tough ZvP legend that is Chojja only to get obliterated by Savior. Zerg starts the year under the dominance of Gorush and July. Gorush loses to NaDa 2-3 in the winner's bracket of YATGK, then faces NaDa again in the finals and manages to overcome being down 1 game to win 4-2 (since NaDa was from the winner's bracket, he only needed 3 wins to take the gold whereas Gorush needed 4). They face again in IOPS and Gorush wins the first two then is winning the third, but NaDa turns it around for a reverse sweep. Probably my favorite series ever. July makes 3 SL finals, although he goes 0-3 (vs Nada), 3-2 (vs Goodfriend), 0-3 (vs Oov). Savior appears and rapes the shit out of everybody. Chojja makes the loser's bracket finals of Uzoo, then wins Cyon MSL the next season. I chose 2005 because it was a major transition year, but that S-class list is 100% definitely more competitive than the current S-class roster. 2010 has been much more like 2006. A bonjwa year. (Wordy.) + Show Spoiler + 2006 there was Savior light years ahead of everyone and making every MSL finals, Chojja winning Cyon in 2005-2006 and then making the finals of Shinhan-1 OSL next season, NaDa making the finals of Shinhan-2 and Shinhan-3. Other finalists were Casy (mostly known as a one match wonder in TvZ, but his TvT was underrated imo), Silver (again mostly a one match wonder in ZvP, although again his ZvZ was underrated imo), Anytime, and Nal_Ra. Oov and Midas also deserve mention as S-class, and of course Bisu appeared late in the year. Although with 2010, it's more like having two Savior's. Every month look at the PR: ranks 1 and 2 are obvious. 3-5 are usually pretty clear cut and round out the S-class. 6-10 are generally speaking nowhere close. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On August 28 2010 20:41 johanes wrote: i guess no1 is settled + Show Spoiler + is he bonwja now? long time for me at least lolol On August 30 2010 14:18 revy wrote: I dunno though, the age of bonjwas may not yet be done. Flash has been to 5 of 6 finals in 1 year (with the potential for 6/6). JD has been to 1 finals every season for the past 5 seasons now (with the potential of 6 finals in 5 seasons). Put that together - 5 seasons - 10 finals - 20 finalists - Flash and JD represent 11 of the 20, over half (with 2 as yet undecided, potentially 13)! Sure there is competition, but these two have just been a whole step above everybody for almost 2 years now. I find it hard pressed not to call each of them a bonjwa, particularly if they both make the OSL finals. 2 Bonjwas have existed at the same time, but never had their peaks overlap quite as well as Flash/JD. This is how I feel. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Edit: obviously the term 'better' is used not as an all-inclusive term in this case. | ||
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SimonB
United States1088 Posts
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
On August 30 2010 09:34 Lightwip wrote: Because JD decided that he shouldn't adapt, ever. It's all very well saying this in hindsight. But would YOU 4 pool in a deciding game 5 when it auto loses to anything other than 14 cc? I can see why Jaedong wouldn't want to take the risk even if 14cc is pretty standard on that map. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
i like the idea of the leessang bonjwa | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On August 30 2010 17:55 writer22816 wrote: It's all very well saying this in hindsight. But would YOU 4 pool in a deciding game 5 when it auto loses to anything other than 14 cc? I can see why Jaedong wouldn't want to take the risk even if 14cc is pretty standard on that map. Yes, I would have. Even before the first set began I though that Jaedong should 4 pool. It completely throws the other player off and could give you an easy 3-0 if it works. Or it could do the opposite, but a gamble is a gamble. If the map is Terran Eye 3, you're not gambling that much, you're just giving yourself a chance at winning a game that is ridiculous. IMO, comparable to protoss cheese on Tears of the Protoss, just not as extreme. On August 30 2010 18:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote: can't they just be the bonjwa twins like batman and robin or something? i like the idea of the leessang bonjwa No, Bisu owns both of them. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On August 30 2010 18:57 Lightwip wrote: Yes, I would have. Even before the first set began I though that Jaedong should 4 pool. It completely throws the other player off and could give you an easy 3-0 if it works. Or it could do the opposite, but a gamble is a gamble. If the map is Terran Eye 3, you're not gambling that much, you're just giving yourself a chance at winning a game that is ridiculous. IMO, comparable to protoss cheese on Tears of the Protoss, just not as extreme. No, Bisu owns both of them. Bisu got beat by Leta , Sea and Effort he can't light a candle to them right now . | ||
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
JD should have opened the series with a 4pool on PR. | ||
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