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Power Rank 08/01/2010 - Page 37

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
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Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
August 29 2010 09:33 GMT
#721
On August 29 2010 18:23 SuperArc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2010 17:54 johanes wrote:
On August 29 2010 17:20 SuperArc wrote:
On August 29 2010 16:25 Demand2k wrote:
On August 29 2010 11:52 Lightwip wrote:
Damn it Jaedong why couldn't you play strategically.


He never really has, he's the master of adaptability, tactics and decisiveness. Being strategy reliant is for the likes of Flash


Yeah, Flash is good in adapting. It only took him a whole year to stop turtling against the dragons and try timing pushes for once.

Strangely, it kinda correlated with removal of super protoss-biased maps


well other Flash fans say maps dont affect Flash so it cant be that

Well imo, the reason why Flash did well on Katrina / Medusa was that, on Katrina, Flash had his patented super anti carrier build TM. Medusa suits his uber macro soo good, I mean seriously, its a map where flash can get away with 1 fact double expo vs P soo often.
In the woods, there lurks..
darktreb
Profile Joined May 2007
United States3016 Posts
August 29 2010 10:33 GMT
#722
On August 29 2010 17:20 SuperArc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2010 16:25 Demand2k wrote:
On August 29 2010 11:52 Lightwip wrote:
Damn it Jaedong why couldn't you play strategically.


He never really has, he's the master of adaptability, tactics and decisiveness. Being strategy reliant is for the likes of Flash


Yeah, Flash is good in adapting. It only took him a whole year to stop turtling against the dragons and try timing pushes for once.


Your ability to cherry pick examples that support your case and speak in total absolutes is incredible. How did you get to be so incredibly bad at basic rationality?
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
August 29 2010 10:49 GMT
#723
On August 29 2010 19:33 darktreb wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2010 17:20 SuperArc wrote:
On August 29 2010 16:25 Demand2k wrote:
On August 29 2010 11:52 Lightwip wrote:
Damn it Jaedong why couldn't you play strategically.


He never really has, he's the master of adaptability, tactics and decisiveness. Being strategy reliant is for the likes of Flash


Yeah, Flash is good in adapting. It only took him a whole year to stop turtling against the dragons and try timing pushes for once.


Your ability to cherry pick examples that support your case and speak in total absolutes is incredible. How did you get to be so incredibly bad at basic rationality?


If you take that example as an example of Flash's adaptability then every progamer is a master of it.
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
johanes
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Czech Republic2227 Posts
August 29 2010 10:57 GMT
#724
On August 29 2010 19:49 SuperArc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2010 19:33 darktreb wrote:
On August 29 2010 17:20 SuperArc wrote:
On August 29 2010 16:25 Demand2k wrote:
On August 29 2010 11:52 Lightwip wrote:
Damn it Jaedong why couldn't you play strategically.


He never really has, he's the master of adaptability, tactics and decisiveness. Being strategy reliant is for the likes of Flash


Yeah, Flash is good in adapting. It only took him a whole year to stop turtling against the dragons and try timing pushes for once.


Your ability to cherry pick examples that support your case and speak in total absolutes is incredible. How did you get to be so incredibly bad at basic rationality?


If you take that example as an example of Flash's adaptability then every progamer is a master of it.

I don't actually think that flash excels in adaptability, his greatest strength is game sense and decision making, he almost always picks the best possible response/strategy for the situation he is currently in and of course, he is constantly thinking few steps forward. Although you could call that adaptability too...
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
August 29 2010 14:19 GMT
#725
Flash isn't so much a master of adaptability as he is a master of studying the metagame trends and spending many long days/weeks/months preparing strategies designed to take it down. In terms of flexibility, Flash is behind the other bonjwas.

Flash's great game senses and his superior mechanics allow him to make the most out of the least. He can expand faster and defend with better confidence. He can push when it would be suicidal for other Terran players to do so. This is his strength and his "flexibility" in a nutshell.

I saw a recent article claim that Flash has revolutionized the game more than any other player, but that isn't even close to being true (hello, Boxer anyone?). Flash combines subtle adjustments on old themes with his superior skill to do things no other Terran can do. That is why Flash is so dominant.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
DracoVolantus
Profile Joined February 2010
Poland231 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 16:07:04
August 29 2010 16:06 GMT
#726
Things You typed is almost as funny as article from more than year ago
titled 'mind over mechanics' which stated that Flash and JD will fall soon.
EX CATHEDRA!
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
August 29 2010 16:37 GMT
#727
On August 29 2010 23:19 Mortality wrote:
Flash isn't so much a master of adaptability as he is a master of studying the metagame trends and spending many long days/weeks/months preparing strategies designed to take it down. In terms of flexibility, Flash is behind the other bonjwas.

Flash's great game senses and his superior mechanics allow him to make the most out of the least. He can expand faster and defend with better confidence. He can push when it would be suicidal for other Terran players to do so. This is his strength and his "flexibility" in a nutshell.

I saw a recent article claim that Flash has revolutionized the game more than any other player, but that isn't even close to being true (hello, Boxer anyone?). Flash combines subtle adjustments on old themes with his superior skill to do things no other Terran can do. That is why Flash is so dominant.


Boxer didn't change the metagame as much as Flash has, in any matchup. He's a goddamn legend who's done some interesting thing but the only things he's done that's really stuck around are bunker rushes (which I don't think he invented but probably popularized), dropship play tvz (ditto), and marine vs lurker micro, which is kind of moot as players have improved upon this over the years as well (most notably Flash, kind of wish I had hoon's lurker killer gif).

Now Oov, that guy made the single biggest change to how EVERY matchup is played besides maybe ZvZ, just because he showed how effective macro is -- which brought along players like Reach and Gorush going for more macro oriented play. On top of that most modern builds can be traced back to something he tried/did.

Flash is revolutionary in the sense that he ends up trying out a new and metagame altering build on a weekly basis, lately.
Remember Violet.
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
August 29 2010 17:42 GMT
#728
Ummmmm

You must not have been playing SC when Boxer was king otherwise you would understand how much SC changed from pre-Boxer to post-Boxer. In every sense of the word.

These days changes in metagame are mostly shifts in timing. That meaning of metagame didn't get started until Oov and didn't really become significant until Savior.

But so much of tactics and strategy and how to properly use units and ideas about where to place buildings didn't even exist until Boxer. Marine micro (if you think rine vs lurker is all he changed, you have absolutely no clue...), vulture micro (especially with mines + glitching vultures to "hop over" things), dropship micro, worker micro, spellcaster usage (sci vessel, ghost and even medic -- Boxer was not the first to experiment with spells, but he was one of the first if not the first to successfully implement spellcasters into Terran game play), hiding things under buildings, huuuuuuuuuuge influences on push mechanics (a change from the monotony of slow pushes -- Boxer's push mechanics would influence NaDa's, which became the backbone of modern TvP), devising proper counters for Protoss and Zerg strategies, etc. Bunker rushes? That's just the tip of the iceberg. Some people even credit Boxer with the wall (although I'm pretty sure St.Eagle did it before Boxer, however, none can deny that Boxer's creative building placements and usages of walls -- both using walls defensively and using his opponent's walls in his favor -- were superior).

There's basically nothing left in SC that is "pure" Boxer anymore, but that's only because other people have taken his strategies and built upon them. Especially NaDa, who shifted the focus of game play away from early game towards middle game and learned to implement Boxer's tricks into more macro based strategies.

Nobody has influenced this game as much as Boxer. Not even close. You would have to combine the achievements of two other bonjwas to surpass Boxer's influence on how this game is played.

Fuck, I've always preferred NaDa over Boxer, but progaming might not even exist today without him.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 18:56:19
August 29 2010 18:48 GMT
#729
What other specific marine micro was there back then besides marine vs lurker? It obviously wasn't marine vs mutalisk because mutalisk micro was practically non-existent. Marine vs workers (in his infamous bunker rushes) definitely existed before boxer, because it was the same as any ranged unit micro. Marine vs Lurker is special because of the intervals and way lurkers attack, not because of the marine. Marine vs hydras doesn't really exist given the range of both. So I guess marines vs melee units like zerglings and ultras? If so that doesn't exist either since you can't micro against a melee unit that's waaaay faster than your marines outside of early game.

What did he do with worker micro? Obviously he didn't invent maynarding which is the most prevalent worker micro, and he obviously didn't create surrounding mechanics as zergs had already been doing that for awhile out of necessity (zerg units in general). I'll give you hiding things under buildings and faster pushes, but "devising proper counters to zerg and protoss strategies" means nothing as every influential player does that for their race until they're no longer influential, as strategies are not static. Building placement can't have been something he "invented" because building placement changes given the map, and he obviously wasn't the first person to make a wall off.

Wasn't vulture micro almost entirely Nada made? Maybe boxer did something similar but it seems more apt as a comparison to Boxer's bunker rushes -- obviously they didn't invent it, but they changed the dynamicism of it.

I was playing SC since it came out, but like most people I wasn't even aware of progaming until well after boxer was the dominant force on the scene (I started watching around Savior =\). Most of the things you're listing are either particular to maps, something he most likely didn't INVENT, etc. I'm not arguing that boxer is the most important figure in esports, but I think it's for other reasons besides in-game innovations. I mean boxer's playstyle is almost irrelevant nowadays, whereas Oov's playstyle *is* the standard. Corner cutting economy based play has become the heart and soul of SC so saying Boxer was more influential than Oov just doesn't make sense. Boxer did a LOT for Terran, definitely, but Oov did the single most important thing for every single race because his style of play isn't specific to his race.
Remember Violet.
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
August 29 2010 20:32 GMT
#730
On August 30 2010 03:48 TwoToneTerran wrote:
What other specific marine micro was there back then besides marine vs lurker? It obviously wasn't marine vs mutalisk because mutalisk micro was practically non-existent. Marine vs workers (in his infamous bunker rushes) definitely existed before boxer, because it was the same as any ranged unit micro. Marine vs Lurker is special because of the intervals and way lurkers attack, not because of the marine. Marine vs hydras doesn't really exist given the range of both. So I guess marines vs melee units like zerglings and ultras? If so that doesn't exist either since you can't micro against a melee unit that's waaaay faster than your marines outside of early game.

What did he do with worker micro? Obviously he didn't invent maynarding which is the most prevalent worker micro, and he obviously didn't create surrounding mechanics as zergs had already been doing that for awhile out of necessity (zerg units in general). I'll give you hiding things under buildings and faster pushes, but "devising proper counters to zerg and protoss strategies" means nothing as every influential player does that for their race until they're no longer influential, as strategies are not static. Building placement can't have been something he "invented" because building placement changes given the map, and he obviously wasn't the first person to make a wall off.

Wasn't vulture micro almost entirely Nada made? Maybe boxer did something similar but it seems more apt as a comparison to Boxer's bunker rushes -- obviously they didn't invent it, but they changed the dynamicism of it.

I was playing SC since it came out, but like most people I wasn't even aware of progaming until well after boxer was the dominant force on the scene (I started watching around Savior =\). Most of the things you're listing are either particular to maps, something he most likely didn't INVENT, etc. I'm not arguing that boxer is the most important figure in esports, but I think it's for other reasons besides in-game innovations. I mean boxer's playstyle is almost irrelevant nowadays, whereas Oov's playstyle *is* the standard. Corner cutting economy based play has become the heart and soul of SC so saying Boxer was more influential than Oov just doesn't make sense. Boxer did a LOT for Terran, definitely, but Oov did the single most important thing for every single race because his style of play isn't specific to his race.

About the vulture micro, remember the "nada vulture torture video" there is? that was defitnitly not patrol micro...
In the woods, there lurks..
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 21:28:03
August 29 2010 21:22 GMT
#731
Due to the size of my response, I put it under spoiler. That way people browsing this page don't have to read a massive wall of text.

TL;DR is Boxer pioneered more than you can imagine. It's only not so obvious because so much of it is common knowledge today that has been built upon. Exact build orders from that time period are obsolete, either made obsolete by Boxer or altered by NaDa for a more midgame macro based style (with NaDa's style being altered by Oov and Midas, Oov's and Midas's by later Terrans). Doesn't mean that Boxer didn't do more for SC game play than anybody else.

+ Show Spoiler +
There's a lot to marine micro other than dodging spikes, although it's hard for me to formulate all the right words. I see the images in my head of the movements, but that's a little different. However, there's a lot regarding marine movements -- when to spread, when to move them forward (during a battle, not just general 1a2a movements), when to pull back, how much to move them, when to stim, and yes, how to micro vs mutas (which certainly DID appear frequently and in fact were used for harassment even back then)... Obviously Boxer was not the first player to ever stim a marine, but Boxer's army control was what everybody studied.

You really had to be paying attention to progaming to understand exactly what I mean by that. These days progamers might study the timings of each other, but back then people really were studying things like troop movements.



I think Maynarding does not mean what you think it means. Maynarding is when you distribute workers between your main (and other bases) and a newly built expansion. It's called Maynarding because Maynard was the first player to think of doing it.

Maynarding was so significant an innovation because mining didn't work the same way in Warcraft 1 and 2 as it did in SC, which is much more economy based. These days we kind of take for granted that a good distribution of workers is important. You don't want 20 drones on one base and 5 drones on another. That's inefficient and it's obvious you need to redistribute. But back then, coming from a completely different game and learning Starcraft, nobody knew these things.

When I say worker micro, I'm referring to using workers to attack and defend. Boxer was one of the pioneers of this.


Vulture micro didn't begin with NaDa, he just perfected it. I saw Boxer microing vultures (using moving shot + placing mines to glitch unit movements) before I saw NaDa do it (which means something since I started following progaming actively roughly around the time NaDa as an amatuer wiped the floor with progaming legend ChRh), and not to mention that Boxer using mines to glitch his vultures over a forge in a progaming match was an extremely well known event (that caused Garimto, then an announcer, to go into fits of laughter).

Nada perfected all of this and started using vulture harassment as a means to damage opponents and keep them occupied, rather than as part of a serious attack.


When I talk about counters, Boxer essentially made obsolete the "old" way of playing, that paved the way for a more midgame based play (as "invented" by NaDa).

Sigh, okay, right now I really feel like I should write an article on how SC has changed over the years, but there are so many facts I'd like to verify and have no way of verifying, so many things I have to trust my memory on completely, and my memory of these things is more than a decade old.



Let's take a trip back in time. Pre-Boxer, SC was pretty much completely directionless. You have a build order and then everything you do is directly a response to your opponent. As Day would say, there was no "midgame plan." As players learned what all the units were and what they do, they started going into one of two mindsets: hyper aggression or hyper expansionism.

Obviously the fundamental ideas of "aggressive" and "management" styles exist today, but to illustrate how different it was, I'll give an actual (viable) zvT build:

9 pool -> 1 hatch into lair -> fast lurker -> 7 minute guardian rush

This strategy worked for a few reasons:
1. Players didn't have a good idea of how to micro and if they turtle up with bunkers (which will help them hold against the ling and lurker), the guardians will obliterate them with superior range.
2. Pools were only 150 minerals and lurker research was 125/125 instead of 200/200, meaning the Terran does not have much time to prepare an adequate defense and essentially has to turtle.
3. Walls had not been invented afaik until sometime during the 1.07 patch, I think circa middle or late 2000.

On the flipside, an expansionist Zerg might expand 7 or 8 times while still on only lair tech, powering hard lurker/hydra, expecting to lose a few expansions, but playing to keep enough of them that he will ultimately overpower his opponent.

Terran players had no idea how to overcome these kinds of plays. And it wasn't just Zerg where Terran really had no idea. In TvP, you basically had choices between some kind of rush strategy, drop abuse (very favorable on LT, Terrans would turtle up all the cliffs with a bunch of tanks and turrets), or a slow push, which basically amounted to pushing towards your opponent literally one siege tank at a time, building turrets and supply depots along the way to provide them with cover.

And even then, going straight to factory unit play was a relatively new phenomenon. That was invented by St.Eagle. (As I said, I'm pretty sure St.Eagle invented the wall, which was what allowed him to do this. But my memory is rusty. That was 11 years ago maybe.)

Boxer changed all of this. His superior understanding of how to use units, his superior understanding of what to build, how to lay out bases, etc., allowed him to shut down this kind of aggressive play (culminating in 3-0 vs JinNam in Hanbit OSL finals, the #1 hyper aggressive Zerg of the LYH era), while simultaneously giving him the mobility to shutdown the expansionism of Zerg. And in TvP, his drops, his vulture use, and his ability to push without doing this turtle slow push shit gave him a winrate over 70% in the year leading up to shit famous showdown with Garimto in Sky OSL, which was pretty much unheard of back then in any match-up.

The metagame changed. Many players disappeared from the blossoming progaming in large part because they couldn't keep up (although financial reasons were also a huge factor back then -- Boxer changed that too, but that's not what I'm discussing). Between the 1.08 patch and the difficulty in competing with Boxer in a battle of tactics and micro, hyper aggressive Zerg started to die out and expansionist Zerg also. Here is where Yellow stepped in and here's why Yellow is so famous even though he never won a Starleague: Yellow's style involved more economic based openings (12 hatch) that were then used to fuel an aggressive midgame, taking expansions slower than rich Zerg players, but pressuring the Terrans too much for them to do anything about it. And Protoss started changing too, partly from the strategic innovations of Garimto, and partly from the stronger play of the next generation that came into being late in the LYH era/early in the NaDa era that consisted of Reach, Ra and Kingdom. These players learned how to defend against Boxer's aggressive play while expanding, thus developing much stronger midgame economies.

And needless to say, Terrans started copying Boxer en masse. And people who thought Terran sucked donkey balls started switching to Terran en masse.

Go back and look at TLPD and in old tournaments it will list the players and there will be a number of "Terrans" like ChRh or Joyo. These guys were pretty much all playing random. If you look at the games list, you'll see that Terran wasn't used that often. Even TheMarine would often not play Terran (in fact PGR21.com used to maintain a list of top players based on lifetime achievement, and TheMarine's PROTOSS record was actually among the top 10 until sometime around 2003-2004). Many of these guys started playing exclusively Terran during and after the LYH era and Terran was the most popular race of up-and-comers like NaDa and Oov, BOTH of whom played random (actually, I think Oov favored Zerg of all races initially).




Since you brought up Oov and I keep bringing up NaDa, I guess I should go into their roles in all of this.

Boxer, essentially speaking, created the tool set. He turned the weakest race into the strongest race and brought in many ideas into the game that the other races would later pick up on. He killed the older, directionless style of SC, which was unable to defeat him.

But Boxer himself was largely without direction. Middle game was what happened when both players reacted to each other's builds, not a preset plan.

NaDa is the player who changed that. NaDa started using Boxer's tools not to win games directly, but to harass and stall his opponents while he put himself in a superior midgame position. NaDa's dropship build involved getting a command center even as the dropship was en route. And on maps where 1 fac behind wall -> expand was not possible (given the knowledge of the era; this was long before Midas invented the Fake Double), NaDa pioneered a strategy of vultures to harrass/attack into tanks to expand. And ultimately NaDa had the goal of pushing with a maxed out army with upgrades. These are all TvP examples, but it was the same in TvZ and even TvT: the goal was to expand faster.

Oov took what NaDa did to the logical extreme. Late in the NaDa era, these things known as "timings" started to appear. Play was starting to become standardized. Oov started monkeying with those timings, working to cut corners and throw off his opponents. Oov would actively try to get into his opponents head and screw with them, expanding at times when you wouldn't think he could expand, paying closer attention to signs of cheese that would disrupt his plans.

But early Oov had more in common with Gold Grand Slam NaDa than with Flash. Metagame as we know it today was coming into fruition. Because of Boxer's changes and NaDa's changes to how the game is played, standardization was starting to really happen in a big way. But it was nothing like it is today. These were just early explorations. A lot remained undiscovered. Which was how Anytime won a Starleague by gimmicking his way through the strongest opponents of his era in 2005. Even though Anytime was known for strong midgame macro, I'm pretty sure that the only macro games he played in SO1 ended up as losses.

It wasn't until Savior that modern gaming as we know it appeared. This was when standardization really took off, especially in 2006, which led to many retirements. For me personally, the game between Savior and NaDa on Luna caused a major mentality shift. Because before Savior there were many ways to play and there were many "right" answers, but I saw immediately that Savior had "solved" ZvT (with a solution that lasted for years, with slight variations over time). Suddenly rather than there being right ways to play, there was a right way to play.

And the rest you know.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
SimonB
Profile Joined September 2008
United States1088 Posts
August 29 2010 21:25 GMT
#732
Adaptability seems like a bit of a vague notion, but it seems to me that Flash is very good at it. Every once in a while, he goes into a tiny slump in a matchup, and people predictably say he sucks at it. Inevitably, it always comes back as his strongest matchup with a new set of builds.

It happened just recently with his TvT. It happened back in EVER09 before he destroyed Best in the semifinals. It happened a couple months before that with his TvZ after he was knocked out of the OSL by Yarnc/Jaedong and in the MSL by Kwanro where he subsequently went on a 19 (!) game win streak in TvZ. I can't remember all the various cycles of this, but it's definitely been a running theme for Flash's entire career.
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
August 29 2010 21:33 GMT
#733
On August 30 2010 05:32 Iplaythings wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2010 03:48 TwoToneTerran wrote:
What other specific marine micro was there back then besides marine vs lurker? It obviously wasn't marine vs mutalisk because mutalisk micro was practically non-existent. Marine vs workers (in his infamous bunker rushes) definitely existed before boxer, because it was the same as any ranged unit micro. Marine vs Lurker is special because of the intervals and way lurkers attack, not because of the marine. Marine vs hydras doesn't really exist given the range of both. So I guess marines vs melee units like zerglings and ultras? If so that doesn't exist either since you can't micro against a melee unit that's waaaay faster than your marines outside of early game.

What did he do with worker micro? Obviously he didn't invent maynarding which is the most prevalent worker micro, and he obviously didn't create surrounding mechanics as zergs had already been doing that for awhile out of necessity (zerg units in general). I'll give you hiding things under buildings and faster pushes, but "devising proper counters to zerg and protoss strategies" means nothing as every influential player does that for their race until they're no longer influential, as strategies are not static. Building placement can't have been something he "invented" because building placement changes given the map, and he obviously wasn't the first person to make a wall off.

Wasn't vulture micro almost entirely Nada made? Maybe boxer did something similar but it seems more apt as a comparison to Boxer's bunker rushes -- obviously they didn't invent it, but they changed the dynamicism of it.

I was playing SC since it came out, but like most people I wasn't even aware of progaming until well after boxer was the dominant force on the scene (I started watching around Savior =\). Most of the things you're listing are either particular to maps, something he most likely didn't INVENT, etc. I'm not arguing that boxer is the most important figure in esports, but I think it's for other reasons besides in-game innovations. I mean boxer's playstyle is almost irrelevant nowadays, whereas Oov's playstyle *is* the standard. Corner cutting economy based play has become the heart and soul of SC so saying Boxer was more influential than Oov just doesn't make sense. Boxer did a LOT for Terran, definitely, but Oov did the single most important thing for every single race because his style of play isn't specific to his race.

About the vulture micro, remember the "nada vulture torture video" there is? that was defitnitly not patrol micro...


Nobody was aware of patrol micro back then. That's fairly new. Not sure when it came about or who discovered it, actually, but it wasn't popularized until post-Savior iirc.

However, you can moving shot without patrol. It's just that patrol is much faster and that there's a notable difference.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
August 29 2010 21:42 GMT
#734
On August 30 2010 06:25 SimonB wrote:
Adaptability seems like a bit of a vague notion, but it seems to me that Flash is very good at it. Every once in a while, he goes into a tiny slump in a matchup, and people predictably say he sucks at it. Inevitably, it always comes back as his strongest matchup with a new set of builds.

It happened just recently with his TvT. It happened back in EVER09 before he destroyed Best in the semifinals. It happened a couple months before that with his TvZ after he was knocked out of the OSL by Yarnc/Jaedong and in the MSL by Kwanro where he subsequently went on a 19 (!) game win streak in TvZ. I can't remember all the various cycles of this, but it's definitely been a running theme for Flash's entire career.


When Flash gets his ass kicked, he studies why he gets his ass kicked and comes up with small changes on old themes that have big effects. For example, his 3 rax timing, which existed long ago, but was originally made obsolete by the better-and-better muta micro of Zergs, and the infamous Flash build, which borrowed the armory timing from a build I first saw used by Midas back around 2005, but with the purpose of the armory changed.

Although currently, I don't think there was anything changed about his TvT. His losses in that match-up really were for the most part flukes. Hiya had studied Polaris Rhapsody better than Flash, Really repeated his performance that ended Flash's win streak (on the same map too), Baby played the game of his life and was being credited as the next big thing (before he crashed and burned), SkyHigh is on a massive win streak (and I would have expected his TvT ELO to continue to rise, but he hasn't played TvT in a couple months) and already stands out as one of the all-time best TvT players despite living in Flash's shadow... It just came as a shock because nobody was used to the idea of players being able to snipe Flash, certainly not in TvT.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
DracoVolantus
Profile Joined February 2010
Poland231 Posts
August 29 2010 22:16 GMT
#735
Thank You for post Mortality <3

I was reading much about early days of progaming and even watched many games
of the past when got time but different perspective is always nice to read
EX CATHEDRA!
Cpadolf
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden1199 Posts
August 29 2010 22:28 GMT
#736
Really great read Mortality, thanks for the effort :D
kawatan
Profile Joined January 2010
288 Posts
August 29 2010 22:29 GMT
#737
On August 30 2010 06:42 Mortality wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2010 06:25 SimonB wrote:
Adaptability seems like a bit of a vague notion, but it seems to me that Flash is very good at it. Every once in a while, he goes into a tiny slump in a matchup, and people predictably say he sucks at it. Inevitably, it always comes back as his strongest matchup with a new set of builds.

It happened just recently with his TvT. It happened back in EVER09 before he destroyed Best in the semifinals. It happened a couple months before that with his TvZ after he was knocked out of the OSL by Yarnc/Jaedong and in the MSL by Kwanro where he subsequently went on a 19 (!) game win streak in TvZ. I can't remember all the various cycles of this, but it's definitely been a running theme for Flash's entire career.


When Flash gets his ass kicked, he studies why he gets his ass kicked and comes up with small changes on old themes that have big effects. For example, his 3 rax timing, which existed long ago, but was originally made obsolete by the better-and-better muta micro of Zergs, and the infamous Flash build, which borrowed the armory timing from a build I first saw used by Midas back around 2005, but with the purpose of the armory changed.

Although currently, I don't think there was anything changed about his TvT. His losses in that match-up really were for the most part flukes. Hiya had studied Polaris Rhapsody better than Flash, Really repeated his performance that ended Flash's win streak (on the same map too), Baby played the game of his life and was being credited as the next big thing (before he crashed and burned), SkyHigh is on a massive win streak (and I would have expected his TvT ELO to continue to rise, but he hasn't played TvT in a couple months) and already stands out as one of the all-time best TvT players despite living in Flash's shadow... It just came as a shock because nobody was used to the idea of players being able to snipe Flash, certainly not in TvT.


death

taxes

flash in the 5th

whatever the reason they had for putting flash in the ace match every time be it going for the most wins ever in a pl season shallow skill pool injury or just straight up arrogance kt fell prey to predictability flash got sniped every time opposing teams only had to get someone decent to practice on one map against one matchup with flash's style in mind as good as flash is, his tvt isn't invinciblethose losses weren't flukes
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 23:52:45
August 29 2010 23:44 GMT
#738
On August 29 2010 23:19 Mortality wrote:
Flash isn't so much a master of adaptability as he is a master of studying the metagame trends and spending many long days/weeks/months preparing strategies designed to take it down. In terms of flexibility, Flash is behind the other bonjwas.



wohoho did you just call Flash Bonjwa?


nice posts on boxer btw ^^
Writer
L0thar
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
987 Posts
August 30 2010 00:21 GMT
#739
On August 29 2010 23:19 Mortality wrote:
Flash isn't so much a master of adaptability as he is a master of studying the metagame trends and spending many long days/weeks/months preparing strategies designed to take it down. In terms of flexibility, Flash is behind the other bonjwas.

Flash's great game senses and his superior mechanics allow him to make the most out of the least. He can expand faster and defend with better confidence. He can push when it would be suicidal for other Terran players to do so. This is his strength and his "flexibility" in a nutshell.

I saw a recent article claim that Flash has revolutionized the game more than any other player, but that isn't even close to being true (hello, Boxer anyone?). Flash combines subtle adjustments on old themes with his superior skill to do things no other Terran can do. That is why Flash is so dominant.


Um, where does that bolded part come from? You listed some amazing things Boxer did for the game, but that doesn't really imply that Flash is behind in terms of flexibility...actualy in terms of anything.

Boxer invented so many things because he was fucking awesome...and because there were simply more things to invent back than. You can't really compare Boxer who played at the dawn of SC progaming practicaly unknown game and Flash who is playing game that was intensively studied for years.

But luckily, we can compare how they influence the game right now. Flash directly and Boxer with Oov through Fantasy. And I would say, Flash is holding his ground damn well!
Loffeman
Profile Joined June 2007
Sweden105 Posts
August 30 2010 00:21 GMT
#740
I dont get why JD didn't 4 pool last game. It was obvious that Flash would go for depot and try to get wall and that wall wouldn't be near to done when lings would arrive right?
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