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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Flash made it to both finals this month. You realize how often that happens? Jaedong was totally dominated last time they met not long ago and this time he won. Sure he can play at flash's current skill level (if he 3hatch before pool), but he hasn't accomplished what flash has this month. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 25 2010 17:37 StylishVODs wrote: I can't understand why some people want Jaedong on the first spot... Flash made it to both finals this month. You realize how often that happens? Jaedong was totally dominated last time they met not long ago and this time he won. Sure he can play at flash's current skill level (if he 3hatch before pool), but he hasn't accomplished what flash has this month. So what is it when he just dominates him with his early mutas? Or read him correct and destroys his bunker rush play? Luck? | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On January 25 2010 17:37 StylishVODs wrote: I can't understand why some people want Jaedong on the first spot... Flash made it to both finals this month. You realize how often that happens? Jaedong was totally dominated last time they met not long ago and this time he won. Sure he can play at flash's current skill level (if he 3hatch before pool), but he hasn't accomplished what flash has this month. Last time I checked the only reason JD didnt reach both finals is that he had to face Flash in the ro8 of OSL, if the brackets were different it would've been a different story. And what matters in the PR are the results now, and JD was clearly the superior player and more prepared player in that finals, he read Flash like an open book and played superior BOs every single set. You are criticizing JD's decision to 3hat before pool before addressing the fact that this is the most imba TvZ map pool since Shinhan 3 and every single Zerg who had a chance to commentate on the map pool has said the same. You are ignoring the fact that ZvT is JD's weakest mu and that JD's ZvP is simply fucking godlike since WCG, he raped most of the top tosses. JD did not match Flash's play that series, he was simply the better player that Bo5. It's funny how Flash fans count 1 straight up game + 1 all in to be a clear indicator that Flash is superior player while when JD outplays him both mechanically and strategically in a bo5 on a extremely imba map pool they suffer cognitive dissonance. Do you really think Flash is fucking retarded enough to drop 40k and throw the last game by changing his bo impromptu? The same bos both Flash and Jaedong prepared for for an entire week? They were so shocked by the situation that they changed their bos. JD got a bo advantage over Flash by miles, Flash chose to all in rather than play a game vs JD where he is extremely behind tech wise and economically. Sure Flash mightve thought he was the superior player going to that series, sure the fans and the players thought Flash was superior, but JD went into that Bo5 prepared to win and showed that he is the superior player, this is not the first time he has done this. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
and for the record, reading someone correctly is actually just luck in the end. Its a good guess. "ok so flash has done this 2 times in a row on this map, i hope he does it this time too." I'm not saying Jaedong's play wasn't good. Obviously it was. But is one series enough to already put flash down a spot after repeatingly breaking 2400 elo and going to dual finals in one month? I'm not a blind flash fanboy. Last time he won with his 7rax vs jaedong.(although beutiful build for that map) I wasn't trying to say his game was superior to jaedongs. Not even in the first game. If you look at the games you clearly see both playing playing awesome and mostly capitalizing on minor mistakes that are easily fixed. Flash's overall performance lately has simply been better than jaedongs. Some people are like: ok he won this and that game, he's clearly the superior player! it doesn't work that way. And yes. Jaedong was way better prepared for this finals than flash as far as I could tell. | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On January 25 2010 18:29 StylishVODs wrote: I think you're both misunderstanding me. and for the record, reading someone correctly is actually just luck in the end. Its a good guess. "ok so flash has done this 2 times in a row on this map, i hope he does it this time too." I'm not saying Jaedong's play wasn't good. Obviously it was. But is one series enough to already put flash down a spot after repeatingly breaking 2400 elo and going to dual finals in one month? I'm not a blind flash fanboy. Last time he won with his 7rax vs jaedong.(although beutiful build for that map) I wasn't trying to say his game was superior to jaedongs. Not even in the first game. If you look at the games you clearly see both playing playing awesome and mostly capitalizing on minor mistakes that are easily fixed. Flash's overall performance lately has simply been better than jaedongs. Some people are like: ok he won this and that game, he's clearly the superior player! it doesn't work that way. And yes. Jaedong was way better prepared for this finals than flash as far as I could tell. JD is 80% winrate the past 3 months. You guys simply havent been watching JD games or looking at his record, his only losses come from BO losses ZvZ due to opponents building too many lings + 3x losses to Flash (he came out on top in the recent fight which matters the most for the current month) + 1xloss to sea by going 9pool and deciding not to build sunks because it will put him far behind. Just because JD has to play the most volatile mu in the world doesnt make him worse than Flash, his ZvP has looked just as strong as Flash's TvZ, except he beat Flash's TvZ. | ||
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MoRe_mInErAls
Canada1210 Posts
On January 25 2010 18:34 samachking wrote: JD is 80% winrate the past 3 months. You guys simply havent been watching JD games or looking at his record, his only losses come from BO losses ZvZ due to opponents building too many lings + 3x losses to Flash (he came out on top in the recent fight which matters the most for the current month) + 1xloss to sea by going 9pool and deciding not to build sunks because it will put him far behind. Just because JD has to play the most volatile mu in the world doesnt make him worse than Flash, his ZvP has looked just as strong as Flash's TvZ, except he beat Flash's TvZ. samachking speaks the truth. Making both finals isn't a greater achievement when either one can only be eliminated by the other.  Jaedong plays superior to  Flash currently and that is what matters. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Both players presented almost equally good play this month. When they face off the first time flash won and got to both finals. If it was the other way around jaedong would probably be in flashes place and flash would have won jaedong in MSL. The difference between them and why you should put flash at nr1 this month is: Flash had to prepare/play for 23 games. (thus breaking elo 2400) Jaedong had to prepare/play for 12 games. (could he have kept it up like flash? dont know) (this gives me a hint why jaedong was more prepared for this finals than flash) then watch all their games and decide how well they played given these circumstances. Some people might think the workload doesn't affect their play or their predictability. I do. If we still don't agree on this one we might aswell let it go and agree to disagree. I think flash deserves the nr1 spot. | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On January 25 2010 18:48 StylishVODs wrote: Yes i have. I actually only watch jaedong and flash play now because i dont have time to watch everything anymore. Both players presented equally good results. When they face off the first time flash won and got to both finals. If it was the other way around jaedong would probably be in flashes place and flash would have won jaedong in MSL. The difference between them and why you should put flash at nr1 this month is: Flash had to prepare/play for 23 games. Jaedong had to prepare/play for 12 games. then watch all their games and decide how well they played given these circumstances. If we still don't agree on this one we might aswell let it go and agree to disagree. I think flash deserves the nr1 spot. Here is what I don't like about this presentation and about the amount of games Flash had 6 days to prepare for the MSL finals + the fact that he played 2 BoXs vZ in the MSL Jaedong had 7 days to prepare for the MSL finals with playing terrans only 3 times on a single map and had to prepare for all 4 maps from scratch While as Flash's record is fucking impressive and I am not denying that. But the fact is #1 and #2 is not decided by records, its decided by who is the better player and showed who is the better player, and with a finals both had adequate time to prepare for, one showed that he was the better player that day. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Jaedong had 7 days to prepare for the MSL finals with playing terrans only 3 times on a single map and had to prepare for all 4 maps from scratch" I think this argument actually benefits jaedong. Jaedong had all flashes cards at hand. Flash didn't know what to prepare for. And we saw the results. All jaedongs BO's was specifically designed to beat flashes and they did. Your second argument i agree with. But i don't think its enough given the circumstances. I think having to play double ammount of games with equally good winningpercentage is stronger. Jaedong showed he was better prepared that day, flash showed that he has what it takes to play on a level no one has played on before (thus elo 2400+ twice). Maybe jaedong could have done it, but he hasn't done it before and we cannot know coz he was kicked out by flash. | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On January 25 2010 19:06 StylishVODs wrote: "Flash had 6 days to prepare for the MSL finals + the fact that he played 2 BoXs vZ in the MSL Jaedong had 7 days to prepare for the MSL finals with playing terrans only 3 times on a single map and had to prepare for all 4 maps from scratch" I think this argument actually benefits jaedong. Jaedong had all flashes cards at hand. Flash didn't know what to prepare for. And we saw the results. All jaedongs BO's was specifically designed to beat flashes and they did. Your second argument i agree with. But i don't think its enough given the circumstances. I think having to play double ammount of games with equally good winningpercentage is stronger. Jaedong showed he was better prepared that day... How did it actually benefit Jaedong at all? Flash actually abused that to mind fuck JD by cheesing and 7/8raxing every game and going for sunk busts vs Kwanro/Calm. If anything if you asked anyone, they would reply Flash had the upper hand with that. He forced JD to play defensive pool and get an advantage with his standard BO. But JD didnt fall for that and actually read his builds perfectly, it can work for both sides, but Flash abused it more and Jaedong did not fall for it. Another thing to consider is that both of them practiced with each other multiple times for Flash's TvZ games, whoever benefited from that, noone knows. But JD was the more prepared player and didn't fall for Flash's builds and feints. You act like the advantage works for one player only while it works for both depends on who uses it better. Your second argument is definitely true, more games + better win % is always better, but does it tell us who the better player is? JD didnt have games because 1) He was out of OSL 2) His team was actually nice to him for once. Fact is they had the same time to prepare for their most important series, and JD was the more prepared player. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Actually you make some good points but im still not convinced and I have to go. Nice talking to you and have a nice day! | ||
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Bwenjarin Raffrack
United States322 Posts
On January 25 2010 19:17 samachking wrote: How did it actually benefit Jaedong at all? Flash actually abused that to mind fuck JD by cheesing and 7/8raxing every game and going for sunk busts vs Kwanro/Calm. If anything if you asked anyone, they would reply Flash had the upper hand with that. He forced JD to play defensive pool and get an advantage with his standard BO. But JD didnt fall for that and actually read his builds perfectly, it can work for both sides, but Flash abused it more and Jaedong did not fall for it. Another thing to consider is that both of them practiced with each other multiple times for Flash's TvZ games, whoever benefited from that, noone knows. But JD was the more prepared player and didn't fall for Flash's builds and feints. You act like the advantage works for one player only while it works for both depends on who uses it better. How did it NOT benefit Jaedong? Conversely, Jaedong played no ZvTs on any of those maps for Flash to study, save for his loss against Flash on Fighting Spirit a month ago. There's a reason he was able to out-prepare Flash and come up with unique builds out of left field for those maps, e.g. re-using a strategy on Match Point proven to scalp games against Flash. | ||
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Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
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L0thar
987 Posts
If something, it along with the 0:2 OSL game showed us how incredibely close these two are and how stupid is calling one of them better than the other right now. And it that case, for powerranking needs, Flash should be nr. 1 because he DID accomplish more than JD this month. Next month, with lots of games played in WL, it can be a totally different story. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
Flash 47-11 (81.03%) Jaedong 32-10 (76.19%) Flash is a lot better there. In Proleague: Flash 22-3 Jaedong 16-7 Flash is a lot better there. Individual leagues: Flash 1 Gold 1 Silver Jaedong 1 Gold Flash wins this category as well. H2H: 3-3 Tie. ELO Peak: Flash 2409 (recordbreaking) Jaedong 2358 Flash is a lot better there. -------------------------------------------- In total Flash has dominated this entire season ridiculously hard. Jaedong is miles ahead of everybody else, and that makes the fact that Flash's record outshines Jaedong's that much more impressive. Simply basing the PR on their latest Bo5 doesn't seem fair in my eyes; 1) I don't think anyone considered for instance Calm to be better than Jaedong just because he roflstomped him in their Bo5. There's more to it than that. 2) The power outage that fucked up the entire event. 3) Jaedong could study 30 televised TvZ's with Flash from this season while Jaedong only played 7 ZvT's. 4) Flash had to be the savior of KT in PL winning 2 games in the middle of the week before, whereas Jaedong had the entire week off to prepare. I don't think it's possible to accurately conclude that one player is superior to another by just looking at one clash. There's no denying that Jaedong played better that day, and he did indeed take one step closer to the position as GOAT, but I want to see Flash's magnificent and unique accomplishment of reaching both finals and at the same raping everyone in PL rewarded. | ||
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Bwenjarin Raffrack
United States322 Posts
On January 25 2010 20:57 adelarge wrote: And it that case, for powerranking needs, Flash should be nr. 1 because he DID accomplish more than JD this month. Pfft, what do you seriously think Flash accomplished this month? Hit 2400 Elo multiple times with a 70% lifetime win rate, won his 22nd consecutive TvT for the longest streak ever, passed iloveoov's monstrous TvZ peak Elo rating, won an OSL gold and a MSL silver while winning ace matches for his team in proleague? Lol, whatever. Jaedong dominated him in the most indisputable, uncontroversial way I've ever seen in the best starleague finals of recent memory. In fact, if Jaedong hadn't made any mistakes at all, he'd have won 3-0. Seriously, why are you Flash fanboys so blind to the fact that those MSL finals games told us all we ever needed to know? | ||
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johanes
Czech Republic2246 Posts
On January 26 2010 00:53 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Pfft, what do you seriously think Flash accomplished this month? Hit 2400 Elo multiple times with a 70% lifetime win rate, won his 22nd consecutive TvT for the longest streak ever, passed iloveoov's monstrous TvZ peak Elo rating, won an OSL gold and a MSL silver while winning ace matches for his team in proleague? Lol, whatever. Jaedong dominated him in the most indisputable, uncontroversial way I've ever seen in the best starleague finals of recent memory. In fact, if Jaedong hadn't made any mistakes at all, he'd have won 3-0. Seriously, why are you Flash fanboys so blind to the fact that those MSL finals games told us all we ever needed to know? Are you serious? "If Flash hadn't made any mistakes at all, he'd have won 3-0". My statement has the same relevance as yours. lol. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4758 Posts
On January 25 2010 18:48 StylishVODs wrote: Yes i have. I actually only watch jaedong and flash play now because i dont have time to watch everything anymore. In that regard, I wanna say that Flash has in some way ruined watching SC for me this season. At least when teran is involved. After watching his games the last couple of months, watching other terrans play just seems shallow. It doesn't matter if they are fighting for the spot of 2nd-best-terran, like Fantasy, Leta, Sea etc.or if they are creative like Upmagic. The perfection Flash showed makes them look like B+ players compared to him. He took terran to a whole new level. I imagine it must have been like this during Oovs peak. In that regard, I wanna say that Flash has in some way ruined watching SC for me this season. At least when teran is involved.After watching his games the last couple of months, watching other terrans play just seems shallow. It doesn't matter if they are fighting for the spot of 2nd-best-terran, like fantasy, Leta, Sea etc.or if they are creative like UpMaGiC. The perfection Flash showed makes them look like B+ players compared to him. He took terran to a whole new level. I imagine it must have been like this during Oovs peak.I particularly remember his game against Mind on New Tornado in PL a couple of weeks ago. I thought that Mind played a beautiful and nearly flawless TvT. But Flash Just crushed him, with no particular BO-advantage, it was mind-blowing.It was kinda like this during Jaedongs zvz reign. Watching zvzs without Jaedong felt kinda useless. But Calm finally put an end to that and other zergs catched up. I wonder if other terrans can catch up to Flash.And although I don't particularly enjoy him turtling 35 minutes against Best on Match Point, or building 700 depots to secure his half of the map on HBR against  Movie, no other terran can do it the way he does it.Flash #1 all the way. | ||
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johanes
Czech Republic2246 Posts
On January 26 2010 02:19 TwoToneTerran wrote: He's not serious. The entire post was sarcastic. ah my bad, should move to romania now probably  | ||
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