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On February 20 2009 14:02 Fzero wrote:As for why I talked about Flash's winning percentage.. Flash has consistently shown top form against better opponents. I think Jaedong has a LOT to prove still.
I'm sorry, what? To say that either Jaedong or Flash have anything to prove at this point is simply crazy. Even when we were talking about the six dragons, the only player who was truly near the same level as Jaedong/Flash was Bisu.
Besides, you can't just compare two league wins like that. You're completely neglecting Jaedong's other medals. In fact, you're counting the GOM invitational but not Jaedong's GOM classic 1 win (like TLPD). Jaedong did, after all, win that series between the two convincingly, and has won both BO5's despite losing a couple BO3s.
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awesome write-up!
Flash and Jaedong are both awesome! why do we even try to figure who's better ?!
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terran dominated when terrans went a combined 11-20 in non mirrors? and flash accounted for basically all of the wins?
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Thanks very much for the report Fzero, I enjoyed the read. (and handy vid links, too)
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JD OSL spoiler + Show Spoiler +On February 19 2009 23:48 Fzero wrote:
Flash. Jaedong. Monsters.
You jinxed JD I hate u  He would have broken 80% zvz AND beaten iloveoov's vZ elo peak
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true champions win championships
as great as flash and jaedong are at the moment they both stand behind "bisu"
to win many proleague games,, winnerleague games is great but those games are not as important than winning individual titles <- if you ask those players what they want more and for what games they prepare and practise more they tell you same thing
history remembers heroes not players who fought good at a time
before flash and jaedong are heroes they have to win at least 3 important individual titles like savior boxer nada etc,,,,
both have just 2 important titles like many players before them
nice report great players
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You can't Jinx someone if they didn't read/hear what you said. 
As far as Terran dominance, Terrans are 30-21 in TvP in WL so far. Flash only accounts for 3 of those wins. Five of the top 10 WL players are Terrans, 3 are zergs, 1 is a protoss. Terrans have had 43 mirrors while Zerg and Toss have had 39 combined. This means coaches are sending out more and more Terrans who are winning matches and eventually playing each other. It's hard to argue against the maps in WL favoring Terran as well. Yes, Zerg are doing fine against Terran. Protoss aren't. Terran obviously aren't. Since SC is a 3 horse race, I think it is fair to say Terran are dominant in WL.
About Jaedong - he is awesome. I'm not saying he isn't the best. He's on top. I simply want to see him show his ZvP in more than one Destination game against Bisu. I also think he needs to prove he can consistently beat Flash or Leta in ZvT. Once all this happens I imagine there won't be *any* doubting at all as to who the best player is right now. Till then, you can still argue it is Flash or even Bisu.
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On February 21 2009 00:05 jemhadar wrote:
true champions win championships
as great as flash and jaedong are at the moment they both stand behind "bisu"
to win many proleague games,, winnerleague games is great but those games are not as important than winning individual titles <- if you ask those players what they want more and for what games they prepare and practise more they tell you same thing
history remembers heroes not players who fought good at a time
before flash and jaedong are heroes they have to win at least 3 important individual titles like savior boxer nada etc,,,,
both have just 2 important titles like many players before them
nice report great players
Well, when asked that questions in interviews, here are what some of these players had to say:
Jaedong after defeating Kal in the OSL - "I wanted to do well in the OSL too... I played two games after the Proleague schedule were finished, and it helped a lot... I couldn't practice much on the Tears of the Moon"
Bisu after defeating Stork in the OSL - "I practiced for both competitions because the maps were the same... I found it hard to find somewhere to practice in after the proleague schedules were over... the fews games I've played with the coaches, and it helped a lot"
Hwasin after defeating Best in the OSL - "I couldn't practice for the MSL because of the proleague and OSL schedules, but it's okay since Jaedong couldn't practice much either"
In fact, the list of interviews where players speak of their relative lack of practice for the individual leagues compared to the proleague goes on and on. There are multitude of interviews that also have players mentioning how they have the edge on the upcoming match because of their lesser role in the team in the proleague. The importance of proleague matches has risen a lot in recent days.
Bisu has never carried a team on his back like Flash. In fact, until recently, Bisu was never even the ace protoss player of his team. Now, I hesitate in saying that Flash is the more dominant player of the two, but there is no doubt that Flash is the more valuable player for his team. Accomplishments in the individual leagues say a lot about a player's domination, but you cannot ignore proleague performances either, not in these days.
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On February 21 2009 00:11 Fzero wrote:You can't Jinx someone if they didn't read/hear what you said. As far as Terran dominance, Terrans are 30-21 in TvP in WL so far. Flash only accounts for 3 of those wins. Five of the top 10 WL players are Terrans, 3 are zergs, 1 is a protoss. Terrans have had 43 mirrors while Zerg and Toss have had 39 combined. This means coaches are sending out more and more Terrans who are winning matches and eventually playing each other. It's hard to argue against the maps in WL favoring Terran as well. Yes, Zerg are doing fine against Terran. Protoss aren't. Terran obviously aren't. Since SC is a 3 horse race, I think it is fair to say Terran are dominant in WL. About Jaedong - he is awesome. I'm not saying he isn't the best. He's on top. I simply want to see him show his ZvP in more than one Destination game against Bisu. I also think he needs to prove he can consistently beat Flash or Leta in ZvT. Once all this happens I imagine there won't be *any* doubting at all as to who the best player is right now. Till then, you can still argue it is Flash or even Bisu.
Jaedong is unbeaten in his four games (two in offline qualifiers) against Leta. Jaedong has a pretty much even record against Flash (10-9 in all matches, 6-6 in Kespa officiated matches). That is pretty much as godly as it gets for a zerg. Only Savior in his prime has managed to piss all over his terran rivals. All zergs apart from Savior will look mediocre when you're setting the standards that high.
There is no one in the world right now who is good enough to beat the likes of Flash, Jaedong or Bisu consistantly. Even Jaedong - who has a positive record over pretty every top player in the scene right now - will struggle against the very best. It's not just him though; for comparison reasons, Bisu is 6-9 against Flash (4-8 in Kespa officiated matches), and 2-4 against Jaedong.
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letmelose
what those players say to the press because they working and play and get payed for there teams is a different thing to what they realy want and where the glory is ,,, as if some proleague ore winnerleague game is more important to them to getting titles never ever 
of course for the teams its a different thing
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On February 21 2009 01:45 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2009 00:11 Fzero wrote:You can't Jinx someone if they didn't read/hear what you said. As far as Terran dominance, Terrans are 30-21 in TvP in WL so far. Flash only accounts for 3 of those wins. Five of the top 10 WL players are Terrans, 3 are zergs, 1 is a protoss. Terrans have had 43 mirrors while Zerg and Toss have had 39 combined. This means coaches are sending out more and more Terrans who are winning matches and eventually playing each other. It's hard to argue against the maps in WL favoring Terran as well. Yes, Zerg are doing fine against Terran. Protoss aren't. Terran obviously aren't. Since SC is a 3 horse race, I think it is fair to say Terran are dominant in WL. About Jaedong - he is awesome. I'm not saying he isn't the best. He's on top. I simply want to see him show his ZvP in more than one Destination game against Bisu. I also think he needs to prove he can consistently beat Flash or Leta in ZvT. Once all this happens I imagine there won't be *any* doubting at all as to who the best player is right now. Till then, you can still argue it is Flash or even Bisu. Jaedong is unbeaten in his four games (two in offline qualifiers) against Leta. Jaedong has a pretty much even record against Flash (10-9 in all matches, 6-6 in Kespa officiated matches). That is pretty much as godly as it gets for a zerg. Only Savior in his prime has managed to piss all over his terran rivals. All zergs apart from Savior will look mediocre when you're setting the standards that high. There is no one in the world right now who is good enough to beat the likes of Flash, Jaedong or Bisu consistantly. Even Jaedong - who has a positive record over pretty every top player in the scene right now - will struggle against the very best. It's not just him though; for comparison reasons, Bisu is 6-9 against Flash (4-8 in Kespa officiated matches), and 2-4 against Jaedong.
I quite agree with you. My point is we continually discuss these players as the best that ever played. If you want to put them on that pedestal, they better be able to beat their rivals of the same time period. Other era leaders didn't have a rival who could always beat them, it was one guy standing above the rest. If Jaedong is going to do that, he's going to have to destroy Flash and Bisu in leagues over the next 12 months~.
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On February 21 2009 03:37 jemhadar wrote:letmelose what those players say to the press because they working and play and get payed for there teams is a different thing to what they realy want and where the glory is ,,, as if some proleague ore winnerleague game is more important to them to getting titles never ever of course for the teams its a different thing
From what I gather, most of the practice schedules are focused on the Proleague. It doesn't matter if the players "want" to win the individual leagues more than the proleague because depending on their role in their team, their practice time for themselves will be limited by their practice for team games. The players with significant roles in their team such as Flash or Jaedong cannot be judged by their performances in the individual leagues alone.
Just like Flash cannot be named the number one player in the scene based on his proleague performance, Bisu cannot be named the number one player in the scene either. Flash has found it difficult to spare strength for the individual leagues with all his duties for the team, while Bisu has never been able to cope with being relied on by his team that heavily. Considering most of Bisu's accomplishments were made when Sea and Pusan were carrying the team for him, it really does make you wonder if Bisu would have achieved the same level of success in individual leagues if his team was half as dependent on him as KTF is dependent on Flash now.
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On February 21 2009 07:13 Fzero wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2009 01:45 Letmelose wrote:On February 21 2009 00:11 Fzero wrote:You can't Jinx someone if they didn't read/hear what you said. As far as Terran dominance, Terrans are 30-21 in TvP in WL so far. Flash only accounts for 3 of those wins. Five of the top 10 WL players are Terrans, 3 are zergs, 1 is a protoss. Terrans have had 43 mirrors while Zerg and Toss have had 39 combined. This means coaches are sending out more and more Terrans who are winning matches and eventually playing each other. It's hard to argue against the maps in WL favoring Terran as well. Yes, Zerg are doing fine against Terran. Protoss aren't. Terran obviously aren't. Since SC is a 3 horse race, I think it is fair to say Terran are dominant in WL. About Jaedong - he is awesome. I'm not saying he isn't the best. He's on top. I simply want to see him show his ZvP in more than one Destination game against Bisu. I also think he needs to prove he can consistently beat Flash or Leta in ZvT. Once all this happens I imagine there won't be *any* doubting at all as to who the best player is right now. Till then, you can still argue it is Flash or even Bisu. Jaedong is unbeaten in his four games (two in offline qualifiers) against Leta. Jaedong has a pretty much even record against Flash (10-9 in all matches, 6-6 in Kespa officiated matches). That is pretty much as godly as it gets for a zerg. Only Savior in his prime has managed to piss all over his terran rivals. All zergs apart from Savior will look mediocre when you're setting the standards that high. There is no one in the world right now who is good enough to beat the likes of Flash, Jaedong or Bisu consistantly. Even Jaedong - who has a positive record over pretty every top player in the scene right now - will struggle against the very best. It's not just him though; for comparison reasons, Bisu is 6-9 against Flash (4-8 in Kespa officiated matches), and 2-4 against Jaedong. I quite agree with you. My point is we continually discuss these players as the best that ever played. If you want to put them on that pedestal, they better be able to beat their rivals of the same time period. Other era leaders didn't have a rival who could always beat them, it was one guy standing above the rest. If Jaedong is going to do that, he's going to have to destroy Flash and Bisu in leagues over the next 12 months~.
Well, it is true that the best players of today are the best players ever in terms of absolute skill level. It's also the opinion of the majority that current format the progaming scene uses makes it very difficult for one player to truly dominate (not just due to the number of "practice heavy" games). So it's understandable for some people to use these two facts as bases for their argument of so-and-so being the greatest player ever.
In terms of relative skill, the current elite comes no where near the past greats such as Nada. But some people probably find gamers being at the top at an age where a top player's replays and VODs are analyzed to the death by other players and coaches, innovative play being countered within a matter of weeks if not days and the 5 day proleague schedule creating new generations of competent players faster than ever before, more impressive than the relics of the past greats.
In my opinion, it's amazing in itself how players such as Boxer, Oov and Savior managed to revolutionize the gaming scene like they did. It's true that you cannot "change" the scene that much anymore, but the final stages of evolution in Starcraft progaming we see today wouldn't have been seen if these players hadn't thought of the practicing methods, build orders and gaming management styles from scratch. You can't put players down for being ahead of their time, no matter how lousy their main opponents may appear compared to the top players we see today. That's what I think anyhow.
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On February 20 2009 11:40 Mista wrote:
I still can't get over the fact that Flash's has to carry his team's burden and ends up dropping out of both leagues ):
Me either. It's a shame that he couldn't move on, I may not be a big fan of KTF, but I like Flash :D
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United States1866 Posts
On February 20 2009 14:02 Fzero wrote:To be honest this week wasn't that hot Lachrymose. I chose the best 5 games, but like I said there were only 6 or 7 I even thought about. The two weeks before that I had a list of 15 games or so. As for why I talked about Flash's winning percentage.. Flash has consistently shown top form against better opponents. I think Jaedong has a LOT to prove still. His flash and brilliance and speed are amazing, but he still needs to take down some big names in big moments. Flash has already done that. In their biggest moments: JD: Light UpMagiC Stork Luxury Flash Mind Kal Flash: Jaedong Anytime Stork Jaedong Bisu Stork I think Flash has also had the harder road. His team is much worse than Jaedong's, he's younger and plays a much less exciting style. He's criticized for that and his looks. He's still dominating in every way. Jaedong is a monster, don't get me wrong. He's on the best form right now. But I think he needs to win against Bisu Flash and say.. sAviOr to be for sure the best.
Dont disagree with all of what you said but you kinda dismissed Jaedong's MSL run in GOM TV MSL S4 when that was probably one of the hardest tournament runs ever.
For a zerg to beat the two best PvZ (He beat Bisu in that amazing blue storm game in group stages, and then beat the in-form Kal in the finals 3-1) , the two best TvZ (a red-hot Flash 3-1 and the previous champion Mind 3-1) and the world's best ZvZ other than himself (Luxury, 2-0), all on maps that were quite poor for Zergs in both matchups (exception being Blue Storm ZvT).
That Loki II game Jaedong vs Flash is probably the best (mechanically at least) late game ZvT ever played in the history of Starcraft and single-handedly made me a real Jaedong fan after being more of a sAviOr-only elitist toward him.
Anyway just my 2 cents on that MSL run. No doubt Flash is also fucking stellar in his career and currently, just think you were writing off JD's run a little too easily.
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On February 21 2009 07:13 Fzero wrote:
If Jaedong is going to do that, he's going to have to destroy Flash and Bisu in leagues over the next 12 months~.
well I don`t think anyone could do that anymore 
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letmelose
i like your points and you obviously have many inside in the scene
i am sorry for my bad english
but i think there have to be 1 thing that stands above all
in any sport its the number of gold medals to see who is the greatest in the world and in all history
who ever won the most important titles is the greatest one
and in starcraft it is still nada with his 6 major titles but at the moment (skillwise because nada cant keep up) it is bisu with his 4 major titles over jaedong and flash having only 2 important titles
nada best starcraft player in starcraft history and bisu after winning msl and gom best player at the moment you cant argue with that
the amounts of major titles deside ,,, and if bisu wins 2 more titles he will be greatest player of all times because if he and nada have 6 bisu is still better because the players getting better over time of course the skill level in starcraft increase over time everey year
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On February 21 2009 10:34 jemhadar wrote:
letmelose
i like your points and you obviously have many inside in the scene
i am sorry for my bad english
but i think there have to be 1 thing that stands above all
in any sport its the number of gold medals to see who is the greatest in the world and in all history
who ever won the most important titles is the greatest one
and in starcraft it is still nada with his 6 major titles but at the moment (skillwise because nada cant keep up) it is bisu with his 4 major titles over jaedong and flash having only 2 important titles
nada best starcraft player in starcraft history and bisu after winning msl and gom best player at the moment you cant argue with that
the amounts of major titles deside ,,, and if bisu wins 2 more titles he will be greatest player of all times because if he and nada have 6 bisu is still better because the players getting better over time of course the skill level in starcraft increase over time everey year
Which competitions are important though? I mean, if we're going to measure trophies, let us be consistent about it. I think the recent "Bisu, the first protoss with four major trophies" thing has gotten blown out of proportion here.
I don't understand the basis for including Bisu and Flash's tournament triumphs when these competitions weren't even Kespa officiated. I mean, why stop there? What about Nada's Ghem TV title when Ghem TV leagues co-existed with OGN and MBC Game leagues as the "big three" leagues? Why count out a league that had a TV station dedicated to it and had an offline tournament just like the other two "major" leagues, and count Flash's triumph in a 16 man invitational tournament that wasn't even Kespa officiated as a "major" title?
Gom leagues are not Kespa officiated, they have next to no history, have a couple of teams not participatiting on it and are not even aired on television. Hell, some Korean news sites didn't even bother reporting on the outcome of these leagues. If we're going to include these leagues as "major" titles just because TLPD decides to list them, it just wouldn't be consistent.
The only thing that makes Gom leagues in any way meaningful is its large cash prizes. If we're simply going by prize money, why not include July's 2nd Premiership League victory? After all, it had an offline qualifying stage and had by far biggest prize money around. What about Yellow's Snicker's All Stars tournament? That competition had the largest prize money at the time also. Should we count WCG victories since it has a large cash prize also? What about Shinhan Masters? Where do we stop?
Exactly. When we have people counting "gold medals", we're going to have different numbers for different players. Does Yellow have no major titles, or does he have three? I mean, if Gom leagues should be included simply because it has the largest cash prize, we should include competitions like Snicker's All Stars and KTEC Winner's KPGA right? Does Jaedong have four major tounrnaments also? I mean, he cashed in quite a bit from eStars 256 man tournaments, and the predecessor of the latest "major" league Bisu has won.
In my opinion, winning various tournaments goes a long way in proving a player's greatness (doesn't hurt their bank account either), but I fail to see how Bisu can be considered as only a couple of steps behind Nada in terms of greatness when it is doubtful whether he is even the best protoss player for his team. Nada just happens to have won a lot of trophies in the leagues Bisu did well in, not to mention his performances in the Proleague, iTV leagues, Premiership leagues, Snicker's All Star leagues, GhemTV leagues and Shinhan Masters. Bisu doesn't even come close.
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EPT
