Such a feelin's comin' over me There is wonder in most everything I see Not a cloud in the sky Got the sun in my eyes And I won't be surprised if it´s a dream.
Everything I want the world to be Is now coming true especially for me And the reason is clear it´s because you are here you´re the nearest thing to heaven
That I´ve seen.
I´m on the top of the world lookin'
Down on creation And the only explanation I can find Is the love that I´ve found ever since
You´ve been around Your love's put me at the top of the world.
Something in the wind has learned my name And it´s tellin' me that things are not the same In the leaves on the trees and the touch
Of the breeze there´s a pleasin' sense of happiness for me.
There is only one wish on my mind When this day is through I hope
That I will find That tomorrow will be just the same
For you and me All I need will be mine if you are here.
I´m on the top of the world lookin'
Down on creation And the only explanation I can find Is the love that I´ve found ever since
You´ve been around Your love's put me at the top of the world.
Flash. Jaedong. Monsters. The words that come to mind when I think about just how incredible these two players are playing would probably be synonymous to the way I might have thought when Roman Legionnaire phalanxes trampled over Hannibal's ass in Zama. What is so amazing about these guys is how fresh they are to the scene. I can't get over the fact that two basic newcomers are destroying a game this evolved and far along. Flash is closing in on SEVENTY percent win ratio lifetime. The difficulty in achieving something like that is so far beyond my realm of understanding... just wow. Can you guys imagine how his opponents must feel? They walk up to the booth trembling, perhaps it is their first encounter with the Ultimate Weapon. Ten minutes into the game they notice that Flash hasn't left his base. They haven't been in his base either. Shit. Oh god.. TANKS. This sucks. GG.
This Week at a Glance
Where the hell did STX come from? 2-0? What? Since when did Kal have a backbone? Did you guys see the way he brushed off smacking down the then 6-0 frontrunners CJ Entus? Big surprise there. eSTRO finally won some games!! Thank god. I actually kind of have a soft spot for them. UpMagiC is just so happy all the time. It's infectious. A big LOL to all the people who didn't pick KTF in Fantasy Proleague. Hah. Seriously? It's pretty easy to see how broken that was now that we can see some of the results in fantasy. We're more than half way through Winner's League and there isn't a damn thing I can say for any of the dragons besides maybe Kal from this week. Helllooooo out there to Protoss. Hi guys, don't you remember 2008? You were pretty good. Maybe you should try that out again. Leta has finally cooled down some. Blame sAviOr imo.
Well lookie here... Rush Hour 3 and Sin Chupung Ryeong appear to be sniper maps. We're also learning that the first guy to be sent out has a pretty damn good chance of winning more than one game thus far. Perhaps coaches aren't making very good decisions with their second player. Something to keep an eye on as we get closer to playoff time. What would you change about all the teams from 4-9 who are fighting for a playoff spot right now? The map pool seems ripe for new Terran stars to continue stepping up. It's also very interesting to look at race strength for your opponents and plan your strategy that way. If you can't tell, I love the idea of being a coach for a pro-team!
Maps are a weird place to examine. It's a little funny how random some of these matchups can be. Once playoffs roll around I'll release all the little graphics side by side so we can see just how coaches have evolved their plans over the course of WL. Terrans continue to dominate at the moment. We've got Chupung, RH3, Harmony, and Colosseum II for the Terrans. Andromeda seems to be a zerg map with Medusa being the Protoss map. This leaves Destination and Tau Cross as fairly balanced. Not too much the coaches can do about half the map pool favoring Terrans I suppose. I'm not sure how I like all this TvT after a few weeks of it. There's only so much Memory, Notice, go.go, BaBy, and Iris I can watch before I get bored. Thank the lord for the zergs stepping it up at least so we can watch TvZ quite a bit.
Don't be afraid to scan through Nevake's latest videos for a few other games this week. I did not prepare a CBNC this week because the games frankly weren't all that great after 6 or 7. I'm hoping that the familiar names can start getting rid of these smaller Terrans so we can close out as strong as we started. Keep up the fantastic work in IRC and the forums about covering this awesome league. If only it lasted forever...
Check out Proleague Updates!! for more information about Winner's League. See you next week!
On February 20 2009 09:49 Racenilatr wrote: muahahah Flash is better then Jaedong!
You just wait. Jaedong will pull something out. And great read up. I love these when I can't watch much SC, not to mention with the masses of games coming from the WL.
hmmm, can I ask why you said flash was nearing in on 70% and talked about that when Jaedong has around 30 more games played in his career and is .14% higher that Flash? His last 10 Jaedong is 9-1 and flash is 7-3 I think?
Flash lost the final game against estro almost getting a reverse all-kill and has dropped out of the OSL and MSL. Jaedong on the other hand got the first reverse all-kill, became the first player to get two all-kills, and is still in the OSL. People complain all the time about how Flash has to carry KTF but do you honestly think OZ would be #1 or even top 3 without JD? No way.
Flash lost the final game against estro almost getting a reverse all-kill and has dropped out of the OSL and MSL. Jaedong on the other hand got the first reverse all-kill, became the first player to get two all-kills, and is still in the OSL. People complain all the time about how Flash has to carry KTF but do you honestly think OZ would be #1 or even top 3 without JD? No way.
Nice report!
Flash all-killed Oz though and in doing so, he defeated Jaedong very convincingly. On the other hand, Jaedong killed ACE and OGN, and OGN's only real way to defeat Jaedong is Leta.
Jaedong takes steroids! (Or is an alien!) Look at the picture on the front page (the one from fomos linking to this article) between his nose and his right eye. There are two Dots! Either they are two extra eyes (aliens) or they are some sort of progaming steroid. Explains why he's so beast. + Show Spoiler +
or they might just be covering up pimples... nice writeup btw.
Wow, I was amazed when I saw Jaedong's record: 13-3. Then I kept reading and saw Flash's 14-2. Damn, those guys are amazing. Jaedong is more entertaining to me, though. Maybe it is because I play zerg .
On February 20 2009 10:59 redtooth wrote: Jaedong takes steroids! (Or is an alien!) Look at the picture on the front page (the one from fomos linking to this article) between his nose and his right eye. There are two Dots! Either they are two extra eyes (aliens) or they are some sort of progaming steroid. Explains why he's so beast. + Show Spoiler +
or they might just be covering up pimples... nice writeup btw.
Maybe I suck at reading charts, but you should have a clear marker for where All-kills happened, like a hall of fame each week for the player that had one. And what's a reverse all-kill? Please someone explain.
On February 20 2009 12:06 fanatacist wrote: Maybe I suck at reading charts, but you should have a clear marker for where All-kills happened, like a hall of fame each week for the player that had one. And what's a reverse all-kill? Please someone explain.
EDIT: Great write-up as always <3
When the other team is on the verge of all-killing and then they get all-killed
On February 20 2009 12:06 fanatacist wrote: Maybe I suck at reading charts, but you should have a clear marker for where All-kills happened, like a hall of fame each week for the player that had one. And what's a reverse all-kill? Please someone explain.
EDIT: Great write-up as always <3
When the other team is on the verge of all-killing and then they get all-killed
On February 20 2009 10:59 redtooth wrote: Jaedong takes steroids! (Or is an alien!) Look at the picture on the front page (the one from fomos linking to this article) between his nose and his right eye. There are two Dots! Either they are two extra eyes (aliens) or they are some sort of progaming steroid. Explains why he's so beast. + Show Spoiler +
or they might just be covering up pimples... nice writeup btw.
To be honest this week wasn't that hot Lachrymose. I chose the best 5 games, but like I said there were only 6 or 7 I even thought about. The two weeks before that I had a list of 15 games or so.
As for why I talked about Flash's winning percentage.. Flash has consistently shown top form against better opponents. I think Jaedong has a LOT to prove still. His flash and brilliance and speed are amazing, but he still needs to take down some big names in big moments. Flash has already done that.
In their biggest moments:
JD: Light UpMagiC Stork Luxury Flash Mind Kal
Flash: Jaedong Anytime Stork Jaedong Bisu Stork
I think Flash has also had the harder road. His team is much worse than Jaedong's, he's younger and plays a much less exciting style. He's criticized for that and his looks. He's still dominating in every way. Jaedong is a monster, don't get me wrong. He's on the best form right now. But I think he needs to win against Bisu Flash and say.. sAviOr to be for sure the best.
On February 20 2009 12:22 meegrean wrote: I seriously love Winner's League. It accurately shows which players are the most dominant.
While it does show the most dominant it destroys them as well. Flash is an amazing example of this. All of KTF sucks. They would get 4-0 by every team in WL if not for Flash. But because of this they have to play Flash every WL match they play, ending up in flash playing about 10 games a week, sometimes even more, resulting in Flash dropping out from both leagues. Both of his opponents where extremely happy that they won. You could tell that they knew that they got lucky..... Flash was tired from all the WL and couldn't practice for these games. Flash was almost crying after his OSL/MSL eliminations. He looked finished. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes into a huge slump, but then again I would be less surprised if he rebounded and destroyed in the WL.
to all those who say they are overworking flash i say no.
yes he has been out a lot on the winner's league. Does that mean he is overworked? yes and no. yes in a sense that he is playing a lot. No as that you make a misconception that he dropped due to this. He dropped because of cheeses/being out played. If you look at his games he was still playing very well (against upmagic it was sad to see but he played very well indeed). So he played 10 games for the winner's league. that doesn't mean he spent his time practicing for those 10 wins. he was good to get those wins. If you look at KTF he is the ace. Meaning he is the last person called and always is the last person to be put in place. Sure the team hasn't been winning and he has had to carry the team to win, but 10 games is nothing in a week. I'm sure many of you had played 10 games in a day. And for practicing... i'm very sure he has tried to keep up with both leagues and i'm sure the coaches have been helping him with both leagues. It is unfortunate he dropped... not that he is overworked. He is the ace card.. if anything they don't want to put him in but he has been placed in. Him winning is due to his skill, not him being overworked and thus being some Winners League practicing machine.
but then again i'm sure a lot of you are trying to find an excuse for why it sucks that he is out. To be honest i'm not a flash fan... if anything i wanted him dropped out of the MSL since JD was no longer there. Then he got dropped form the OSL and i was happy. But then to see him lose to Leta made me sad in a very weird way. Though I am an anti-fan... the MSL now seems sooo boring seeing him out. Plus i hate leta more. But to get back to the point... him losing was stupid Leta and his cheese build... not KTF overworking him. Its a generalization with no proof whatsoever (10 games does not = being overworked he might no have even practiced 1 game for WL and may have pulled off 10 wins due to his skill.)
Yeah, I'm always sad when Flash loses. I just wish he'd keep himself in individual leagues- he simply deserves to be there. JaeDong and Flash are just ridiculously good. The whole six dragons thing... I think it's pretty much redundant now. I mean, sure they're good and players like Bisu, Jangbi, Stork (yes, Stork, he still rocks) are still absolutely top players, but I think this Protoss dominance has passed. Despite being a Protoss user, I can't say I'm particularly sad.
I have a question, and I searched for this a bit so sorry if it was obvious. Will there be winners league playoffs, or does this just count as ro3 of the proleague season where six teams are making it to the playoffs. Thanks in advance for the info.
Flash and Jaedong are crazy good, I hope T1 (especially Bisu even tho hes been ok) can step it up, and this Winners League format rocks.
On February 20 2009 14:02 Fzero wrote:As for why I talked about Flash's winning percentage.. Flash has consistently shown top form against better opponents. I think Jaedong has a LOT to prove still.
I'm sorry, what? To say that either Jaedong or Flash have anything to prove at this point is simply crazy. Even when we were talking about the six dragons, the only player who was truly near the same level as Jaedong/Flash was Bisu.
Besides, you can't just compare two league wins like that. You're completely neglecting Jaedong's other medals. In fact, you're counting the GOM invitational but not Jaedong's GOM classic 1 win (like TLPD). Jaedong did, after all, win that series between the two convincingly, and has won both BO5's despite losing a couple BO3s.
as great as flash and jaedong are at the moment they both stand behind "bisu"
to win many proleague games,, winnerleague games is great but those games are not as important than winning individual titles <- if you ask those players what they want more and for what games they prepare and practise more they tell you same thing
history remembers heroes not players who fought good at a time
before flash and jaedong are heroes they have to win at least 3 important individual titles like savior boxer nada etc,,,, both have just 2 important titles like many players before them
You can't Jinx someone if they didn't read/hear what you said.
As far as Terran dominance, Terrans are 30-21 in TvP in WL so far. Flash only accounts for 3 of those wins. Five of the top 10 WL players are Terrans, 3 are zergs, 1 is a protoss. Terrans have had 43 mirrors while Zerg and Toss have had 39 combined. This means coaches are sending out more and more Terrans who are winning matches and eventually playing each other. It's hard to argue against the maps in WL favoring Terran as well. Yes, Zerg are doing fine against Terran. Protoss aren't. Terran obviously aren't. Since SC is a 3 horse race, I think it is fair to say Terran are dominant in WL.
About Jaedong - he is awesome. I'm not saying he isn't the best. He's on top. I simply want to see him show his ZvP in more than one Destination game against Bisu. I also think he needs to prove he can consistently beat Flash or Leta in ZvT. Once all this happens I imagine there won't be *any* doubting at all as to who the best player is right now. Till then, you can still argue it is Flash or even Bisu.
On February 21 2009 00:05 jemhadar wrote: true champions win championships
as great as flash and jaedong are at the moment they both stand behind "bisu"
to win many proleague games,, winnerleague games is great but those games are not as important than winning individual titles <- if you ask those players what they want more and for what games they prepare and practise more they tell you same thing
history remembers heroes not players who fought good at a time
before flash and jaedong are heroes they have to win at least 3 important individual titles like savior boxer nada etc,,,, both have just 2 important titles like many players before them
nice report great players
Well, when asked that questions in interviews, here are what some of these players had to say:
Jaedong after defeating Kal in the OSL - "I wanted to do well in the OSL too... I played two games after the Proleague schedule were finished, and it helped a lot... I couldn't practice much on the Tears of the Moon"
Bisu after defeating Stork in the OSL - "I practiced for both competitions because the maps were the same... I found it hard to find somewhere to practice in after the proleague schedules were over... the fews games I've played with the coaches, and it helped a lot"
Hwasin after defeating Best in the OSL - "I couldn't practice for the MSL because of the proleague and OSL schedules, but it's okay since Jaedong couldn't practice much either"
In fact, the list of interviews where players speak of their relative lack of practice for the individual leagues compared to the proleague goes on and on. There are multitude of interviews that also have players mentioning how they have the edge on the upcoming match because of their lesser role in the team in the proleague. The importance of proleague matches has risen a lot in recent days.
Bisu has never carried a team on his back like Flash. In fact, until recently, Bisu was never even the ace protoss player of his team. Now, I hesitate in saying that Flash is the more dominant player of the two, but there is no doubt that Flash is the more valuable player for his team. Accomplishments in the individual leagues say a lot about a player's domination, but you cannot ignore proleague performances either, not in these days.
On February 21 2009 00:11 Fzero wrote: You can't Jinx someone if they didn't read/hear what you said.
As far as Terran dominance, Terrans are 30-21 in TvP in WL so far. Flash only accounts for 3 of those wins. Five of the top 10 WL players are Terrans, 3 are zergs, 1 is a protoss. Terrans have had 43 mirrors while Zerg and Toss have had 39 combined. This means coaches are sending out more and more Terrans who are winning matches and eventually playing each other. It's hard to argue against the maps in WL favoring Terran as well. Yes, Zerg are doing fine against Terran. Protoss aren't. Terran obviously aren't. Since SC is a 3 horse race, I think it is fair to say Terran are dominant in WL.
About Jaedong - he is awesome. I'm not saying he isn't the best. He's on top. I simply want to see him show his ZvP in more than one Destination game against Bisu. I also think he needs to prove he can consistently beat Flash or Leta in ZvT. Once all this happens I imagine there won't be *any* doubting at all as to who the best player is right now. Till then, you can still argue it is Flash or even Bisu.
Jaedong is unbeaten in his four games (two in offline qualifiers) against Leta. Jaedong has a pretty much even record against Flash (10-9 in all matches, 6-6 in Kespa officiated matches). That is pretty much as godly as it gets for a zerg. Only Savior in his prime has managed to piss all over his terran rivals. All zergs apart from Savior will look mediocre when you're setting the standards that high.
There is no one in the world right now who is good enough to beat the likes of Flash, Jaedong or Bisu consistantly. Even Jaedong - who has a positive record over pretty every top player in the scene right now - will struggle against the very best. It's not just him though; for comparison reasons, Bisu is 6-9 against Flash (4-8 in Kespa officiated matches), and 2-4 against Jaedong.
what those players say to the press because they working and play and get payed for there teams is a different thing to what they realy want and where the glory is ,,, as if some proleague ore winnerleague game is more important to them to getting titles never ever
On February 21 2009 00:11 Fzero wrote: You can't Jinx someone if they didn't read/hear what you said.
As far as Terran dominance, Terrans are 30-21 in TvP in WL so far. Flash only accounts for 3 of those wins. Five of the top 10 WL players are Terrans, 3 are zergs, 1 is a protoss. Terrans have had 43 mirrors while Zerg and Toss have had 39 combined. This means coaches are sending out more and more Terrans who are winning matches and eventually playing each other. It's hard to argue against the maps in WL favoring Terran as well. Yes, Zerg are doing fine against Terran. Protoss aren't. Terran obviously aren't. Since SC is a 3 horse race, I think it is fair to say Terran are dominant in WL.
About Jaedong - he is awesome. I'm not saying he isn't the best. He's on top. I simply want to see him show his ZvP in more than one Destination game against Bisu. I also think he needs to prove he can consistently beat Flash or Leta in ZvT. Once all this happens I imagine there won't be *any* doubting at all as to who the best player is right now. Till then, you can still argue it is Flash or even Bisu.
Jaedong is unbeaten in his four games (two in offline qualifiers) against Leta. Jaedong has a pretty much even record against Flash (10-9 in all matches, 6-6 in Kespa officiated matches). That is pretty much as godly as it gets for a zerg. Only Savior in his prime has managed to piss all over his terran rivals. All zergs apart from Savior will look mediocre when you're setting the standards that high.
There is no one in the world right now who is good enough to beat the likes of Flash, Jaedong or Bisu consistantly. Even Jaedong - who has a positive record over pretty every top player in the scene right now - will struggle against the very best. It's not just him though; for comparison reasons, Bisu is 6-9 against Flash (4-8 in Kespa officiated matches), and 2-4 against Jaedong.
I quite agree with you. My point is we continually discuss these players as the best that ever played. If you want to put them on that pedestal, they better be able to beat their rivals of the same time period. Other era leaders didn't have a rival who could always beat them, it was one guy standing above the rest. If Jaedong is going to do that, he's going to have to destroy Flash and Bisu in leagues over the next 12 months~.
On February 21 2009 03:37 jemhadar wrote: letmelose
what those players say to the press because they working and play and get payed for there teams is a different thing to what they realy want and where the glory is ,,, as if some proleague ore winnerleague game is more important to them to getting titles never ever
of course for the teams its a different thing
From what I gather, most of the practice schedules are focused on the Proleague. It doesn't matter if the players "want" to win the individual leagues more than the proleague because depending on their role in their team, their practice time for themselves will be limited by their practice for team games. The players with significant roles in their team such as Flash or Jaedong cannot be judged by their performances in the individual leagues alone.
Just like Flash cannot be named the number one player in the scene based on his proleague performance, Bisu cannot be named the number one player in the scene either. Flash has found it difficult to spare strength for the individual leagues with all his duties for the team, while Bisu has never been able to cope with being relied on by his team that heavily. Considering most of Bisu's accomplishments were made when Sea and Pusan were carrying the team for him, it really does make you wonder if Bisu would have achieved the same level of success in individual leagues if his team was half as dependent on him as KTF is dependent on Flash now.
On February 21 2009 00:11 Fzero wrote: You can't Jinx someone if they didn't read/hear what you said.
As far as Terran dominance, Terrans are 30-21 in TvP in WL so far. Flash only accounts for 3 of those wins. Five of the top 10 WL players are Terrans, 3 are zergs, 1 is a protoss. Terrans have had 43 mirrors while Zerg and Toss have had 39 combined. This means coaches are sending out more and more Terrans who are winning matches and eventually playing each other. It's hard to argue against the maps in WL favoring Terran as well. Yes, Zerg are doing fine against Terran. Protoss aren't. Terran obviously aren't. Since SC is a 3 horse race, I think it is fair to say Terran are dominant in WL.
About Jaedong - he is awesome. I'm not saying he isn't the best. He's on top. I simply want to see him show his ZvP in more than one Destination game against Bisu. I also think he needs to prove he can consistently beat Flash or Leta in ZvT. Once all this happens I imagine there won't be *any* doubting at all as to who the best player is right now. Till then, you can still argue it is Flash or even Bisu.
Jaedong is unbeaten in his four games (two in offline qualifiers) against Leta. Jaedong has a pretty much even record against Flash (10-9 in all matches, 6-6 in Kespa officiated matches). That is pretty much as godly as it gets for a zerg. Only Savior in his prime has managed to piss all over his terran rivals. All zergs apart from Savior will look mediocre when you're setting the standards that high.
There is no one in the world right now who is good enough to beat the likes of Flash, Jaedong or Bisu consistantly. Even Jaedong - who has a positive record over pretty every top player in the scene right now - will struggle against the very best. It's not just him though; for comparison reasons, Bisu is 6-9 against Flash (4-8 in Kespa officiated matches), and 2-4 against Jaedong.
I quite agree with you. My point is we continually discuss these players as the best that ever played. If you want to put them on that pedestal, they better be able to beat their rivals of the same time period. Other era leaders didn't have a rival who could always beat them, it was one guy standing above the rest. If Jaedong is going to do that, he's going to have to destroy Flash and Bisu in leagues over the next 12 months~.
Well, it is true that the best players of today are the best players ever in terms of absolute skill level. It's also the opinion of the majority that current format the progaming scene uses makes it very difficult for one player to truly dominate (not just due to the number of "practice heavy" games). So it's understandable for some people to use these two facts as bases for their argument of so-and-so being the greatest player ever.
In terms of relative skill, the current elite comes no where near the past greats such as Nada. But some people probably find gamers being at the top at an age where a top player's replays and VODs are analyzed to the death by other players and coaches, innovative play being countered within a matter of weeks if not days and the 5 day proleague schedule creating new generations of competent players faster than ever before, more impressive than the relics of the past greats.
In my opinion, it's amazing in itself how players such as Boxer, Oov and Savior managed to revolutionize the gaming scene like they did. It's true that you cannot "change" the scene that much anymore, but the final stages of evolution in Starcraft progaming we see today wouldn't have been seen if these players hadn't thought of the practicing methods, build orders and gaming management styles from scratch. You can't put players down for being ahead of their time, no matter how lousy their main opponents may appear compared to the top players we see today. That's what I think anyhow.
On February 20 2009 11:40 Mista wrote: I still can't get over the fact that Flash's has to carry his team's burden and ends up dropping out of both leagues ):
Me either. It's a shame that he couldn't move on, I may not be a big fan of KTF, but I like Flash :D
On February 20 2009 14:02 Fzero wrote: To be honest this week wasn't that hot Lachrymose. I chose the best 5 games, but like I said there were only 6 or 7 I even thought about. The two weeks before that I had a list of 15 games or so.
As for why I talked about Flash's winning percentage.. Flash has consistently shown top form against better opponents. I think Jaedong has a LOT to prove still. His flash and brilliance and speed are amazing, but he still needs to take down some big names in big moments. Flash has already done that.
In their biggest moments:
JD: Light UpMagiC Stork Luxury Flash Mind Kal
Flash: Jaedong Anytime Stork Jaedong Bisu Stork
I think Flash has also had the harder road. His team is much worse than Jaedong's, he's younger and plays a much less exciting style. He's criticized for that and his looks. He's still dominating in every way. Jaedong is a monster, don't get me wrong. He's on the best form right now. But I think he needs to win against Bisu Flash and say.. sAviOr to be for sure the best.
Dont disagree with all of what you said but you kinda dismissed Jaedong's MSL run in GOM TV MSL S4 when that was probably one of the hardest tournament runs ever.
For a zerg to beat the two best PvZ (He beat Bisu in that amazing blue storm game in group stages, and then beat the in-form Kal in the finals 3-1) , the two best TvZ (a red-hot Flash 3-1 and the previous champion Mind 3-1) and the world's best ZvZ other than himself (Luxury, 2-0), all on maps that were quite poor for Zergs in both matchups (exception being Blue Storm ZvT).
That Loki II game Jaedong vs Flash is probably the best (mechanically at least) late game ZvT ever played in the history of Starcraft and single-handedly made me a real Jaedong fan after being more of a sAviOr-only elitist toward him.
Anyway just my 2 cents on that MSL run. No doubt Flash is also fucking stellar in his career and currently, just think you were writing off JD's run a little too easily.
On February 21 2009 07:13 Fzero wrote: If Jaedong is going to do that, he's going to have to destroy Flash and Bisu in leagues over the next 12 months~.
i like your points and you obviously have many inside in the scene i am sorry for my bad english but i think there have to be 1 thing that stands above all in any sport its the number of gold medals to see who is the greatest in the world and in all history who ever won the most important titles is the greatest one
and in starcraft it is still nada with his 6 major titles but at the moment (skillwise because nada cant keep up) it is bisu with his 4 major titles over jaedong and flash having only 2 important titles
nada best starcraft player in starcraft history and bisu after winning msl and gom best player at the moment you cant argue with that
the amounts of major titles deside ,,, and if bisu wins 2 more titles he will be greatest player of all times because if he and nada have 6 bisu is still better because the players getting better over time of course the skill level in starcraft increase over time everey year
On February 21 2009 10:34 jemhadar wrote: letmelose
i like your points and you obviously have many inside in the scene i am sorry for my bad english but i think there have to be 1 thing that stands above all in any sport its the number of gold medals to see who is the greatest in the world and in all history who ever won the most important titles is the greatest one
and in starcraft it is still nada with his 6 major titles but at the moment (skillwise because nada cant keep up) it is bisu with his 4 major titles over jaedong and flash having only 2 important titles
nada best starcraft player in starcraft history and bisu after winning msl and gom best player at the moment you cant argue with that
the amounts of major titles deside ,,, and if bisu wins 2 more titles he will be greatest player of all times because if he and nada have 6 bisu is still better because the players getting better over time of course the skill level in starcraft increase over time everey year
Which competitions are important though? I mean, if we're going to measure trophies, let us be consistent about it. I think the recent "Bisu, the first protoss with four major trophies" thing has gotten blown out of proportion here.
I don't understand the basis for including Bisu and Flash's tournament triumphs when these competitions weren't even Kespa officiated. I mean, why stop there? What about Nada's Ghem TV title when Ghem TV leagues co-existed with OGN and MBC Game leagues as the "big three" leagues? Why count out a league that had a TV station dedicated to it and had an offline tournament just like the other two "major" leagues, and count Flash's triumph in a 16 man invitational tournament that wasn't even Kespa officiated as a "major" title?
Gom leagues are not Kespa officiated, they have next to no history, have a couple of teams not participatiting on it and are not even aired on television. Hell, some Korean news sites didn't even bother reporting on the outcome of these leagues. If we're going to include these leagues as "major" titles just because TLPD decides to list them, it just wouldn't be consistent.
The only thing that makes Gom leagues in any way meaningful is its large cash prizes. If we're simply going by prize money, why not include July's 2nd Premiership League victory? After all, it had an offline qualifying stage and had by far biggest prize money around. What about Yellow's Snicker's All Stars tournament? That competition had the largest prize money at the time also. Should we count WCG victories since it has a large cash prize also? What about Shinhan Masters? Where do we stop?
Exactly. When we have people counting "gold medals", we're going to have different numbers for different players. Does Yellow have no major titles, or does he have three? I mean, if Gom leagues should be included simply because it has the largest cash prize, we should include competitions like Snicker's All Stars and KTEC Winner's KPGA right? Does Jaedong have four major tounrnaments also? I mean, he cashed in quite a bit from eStars 256 man tournaments, and the predecessor of the latest "major" league Bisu has won.
In my opinion, winning various tournaments goes a long way in proving a player's greatness (doesn't hurt their bank account either), but I fail to see how Bisu can be considered as only a couple of steps behind Nada in terms of greatness when it is doubtful whether he is even the best protoss player for his team. Nada just happens to have won a lot of trophies in the leagues Bisu did well in, not to mention his performances in the Proleague, iTV leagues, Premiership leagues, Snicker's All Star leagues, GhemTV leagues and Shinhan Masters. Bisu doesn't even come close.
On February 21 2009 10:34 jemhadar wrote: letmelose
i like your points and you obviously have many inside in the scene i am sorry for my bad english but i think there have to be 1 thing that stands above all in any sport its the number of gold medals to see who is the greatest in the world and in all history who ever won the most important titles is the greatest one
and in starcraft it is still nada with his 6 major titles but at the moment (skillwise because nada cant keep up) it is bisu with his 4 major titles over jaedong and flash having only 2 important titles
nada best starcraft player in starcraft history and bisu after winning msl and gom best player at the moment you cant argue with that
the amounts of major titles deside ,,, and if bisu wins 2 more titles he will be greatest player of all times because if he and nada have 6 bisu is still better because the players getting better over time of course the skill level in starcraft increase over time everey year
yep, another one who counts only all of Bisu's wins. Jaedong has one 3, OSL, MSL , GOM Season1, and JD rise came later than Bisu's. How come flash's Gom invitational counts, and JD's GSL doesn`t?! Also there are a lot of more accomplished players than Bisu, and no, he won`t be the "best player ever" if he wins 2 more starleagues. (he may be if he continues to play great for a loooong time, even if he wins only 2 more)
well "letmelose" maybe i should rethink my positions about the importants of different tournaments ,,,,,and tlpd stats are not complete ,,, actually its extremly difficult to measure the greatness of a starcraft player overal
EPT![[image loading]](http://data.fuskbugg.se/skalman01/proleaguefinal.png)
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