With more that 16,000 games played in less than five days, the TSL is tearing up the BW landscape. The tournament has flushed out some of the big names, and there are even rumours of a kangaroo sighting (6-0 so far!) On top though, the German mercenary Mondragon is killing everyone with only two losses. Here is a list of the top gamers at the time of writing:
Day[9] Sponsors the Replay Contest!
In the last update, I mentioned I would be collecting replays to make a weekly top 10 list from the ladder. So far, I have received... 4. However, Day[9] has stepped up to the plate with some incentive!
For the best replay submitted during the TSL ladder phase, Day[9] will give away $100. He will be watching the top 10 replays from each week, and then choosing his personal favorite.
Send in your hot replays to Manifesto7 and get in the game!
Cheaters Suck
Cheaters ruin leagues, force volunteers to work harder, and undermine the integrity of the game. TeamLiquid, as a leader in the StarCraft world, takes a tough stand against cheaters. Due to recent events, we have had to more closely examine this issue. Therefore, the following has been decreed:
You five have been previously caught hacking within the past year. You have no place in this competition, and I can only hope other organizers take the same stance we have when it comes to their tournaments. You ruin StarCraft.
2. Rule Reminder
TeamLiquid is dedicated to hosting as fair a tournament as logistically possible. TeamLiquid is also the only and final word in this tournament. We reserve the right to ask any player to comply with our security measures. These include, but are not limited to, recording FPVODs, installing our software, and accepting referees in games.
iCCup Presents a TSL tournament
This weekend, thanks to the hard work of iCCup.Raelcun, TSL gamers can have a break from laddering and work to earn a top prize of 1000 points in the TSL Weekend Tourney.
The rules are simple. Buy into the tourney for 50 (64 players) or 100 (32 players) points. The points will be split up amongst the top finishers with the winner getting a cool 1000. This is a great way for you to jump up to that higher ranking and play some good players along the way.
Check out the iCCup page here. Please remember that the tournament is a two stage process. You need to sign up, and then check in prior to the games. PM iCCup.Raelcun with any questions.
Rage interviews Mondragon
Our resident rogue reporter Rage has struck again. This time he got some time with the current #1, Mondragon.
Any words on the format and the organization? Are you excited to be a part of this? The event itself is damn awesome. The format is something new and I really like it. I'm always in for some changes and new systems. I really appreciate all the work of TeamLiquid.net for such an amazing event. Thanks.
You're welcome. Check out the rest of the interview here, where there is also a nice replay vs Nony.
Rumour Rumblings
... a division of ESPN has been interested in the TSL ... ... FakeSteves cooking up a big pot of awesome ... ... Manifesto7 has answered over 100 PMs in three days, and is going crazy ...
Respect
Players playing for the love of the game.
Replay Bag
A couple generous gamers from the top of the ranks have given me some replays from the first four days. Check them out!
Katoan was up to 700 points hes was -almost- out of D-!! from a rating of to to 702 earlier today GOGO KATOAN FIGHTING!
Also! Please note the iccup tournament system is a 2 part signup the sign ups for the tournament will open early and be able to go above 64 players . The 64 players who check in before the start of the tournament will be the ones in the bracket.
i have no problem with the banning of hackers caught in the past, but didnt the rules say "anyone who was previously caught hacking will NOT be excluded from the tournement since they will have to play with ah on?
On April 04 2008 10:58 Aux1 wrote: i have no problem with the banning of hackers caught in the past, but didnt the rules say "anyone who was previously caught hacking will NOT be excluded from the tournement since they will have to play with ah on?
Yes. We changed our minds, largely due to account and drop hack abuse by some of the notorious members.
On April 04 2008 10:58 Aux1 wrote: i have no problem with the banning of hackers caught in the past, but didnt the rules say "anyone who was previously caught hacking will NOT be excluded from the tournement since they will have to play with ah on?
Yes. We changed our minds, largely due to account and drop hack abuse by some of the notorious members.
Only you sir have the balls to do what every previous tournament organizer wouldn't. Thank god for TL.net, thank god for Manifesto7.
Is that ESPN thing for serious? Or just a belated April fools? If it's serious, heck even if it isn't, we should all go to some ESPN forum/site and show our support in them taking interest! Let them know just how big of a thing Starcraft can be in America! If ESPN took TSL seriously, that would more than likely propel eSports in American into the stratosphere.
very nice writeup, i tought this league was a 1.st april joke and now i see you are probably serious bout it , xexe. Will check out those reps now. And very good decision concerning ex hackers.
Here's to manifesto, for having the balls to lay down the banhammer (to BILLIONS) when it comes to enforcing the rules! You and the rest of the staff make TSL the great event it is. Its also 10x easier to find a game now ^_^
if your gonna ban hackers, dont play favorites. ban haypro too....... i hope you take this comment seriously.................. just cause hes a nice person and his story sounded better, he was a caught hacker as well
afaik haypro is still gonna be required to make fpvods of his tournament games or some other countermeasures. it seems pretty fair given the circumstances he was caught under.
the only people who really deserved to go who didnt were the people like tt1 and vanilla who were caught more than a year ago but are still fishy as hell and havent done anything to redeem themselves.
The situation with haypro is so ridiculously different from the other gamers. Dozens of people searched through thousands of replays and found one instance of an auto split. I am not condoning what he did, but compare that with the people on this list, and you have to understand the difference.
This is not to say Haypro, or anyone, is off the hook. Anyone who qualifies will be under intense scrutiny.
The ESPN rumor is obviously fake to buy hype. They only cover console games because of their partnership with MLG. I could see something happening with Starcraft II if Blizzard pushes the envelope (which is unlikely).
On April 04 2008 14:03 IdrA wrote: afaik haypro is still gonna be required to make fpvods of his tournament games or some other countermeasures. it seems pretty fair given the circumstances he was caught under.
the only people who really deserved to go who didnt were the people like tt1 and vanilla who were caught more than a year ago but are still fishy as hell and havent done anything to redeem themselves.
On April 04 2008 14:53 Spyder wrote: so bad u banned mistrzzz there was not real proof for banning him unless you banned him for being BM...than it's ok :D
On April 04 2008 15:16 Kennigit wrote: Spyder we did like a 6 hour investigation and found significant evidence of an intentional drop.
Can you make summary? That is so absurd, only way I can see him hack that way if he would get really pissed off about first game and act based on emotions becouse it made no sense at all.
I cant find a single complaint about Mistrzzz on iccup, which is weird if he drop hacks a lot ... in addition why on gods earth would he hack in a game where he is not behind? He even have the rep and placed it online
Looking at the claimant, G5, instead, you CAN find a complaint about him from the TSL games ( http://sc.iccup.com/iccthread/23394 ) . Its DIMAGA who made a complaint ... and guess about what? Yes, drop hack. In retrospect it might not be so strange that G5 seems to know so much about this hack. Go through his games list ( http://sc.iccup.com/iccmatchlist/290802/page2/ ) and you'll find a couple of weird games too - for instance against "doctorhouse" (same pattern as the game against DIMAGA).
In conclusion, my point merely is that TL need some strict guidelines about where to accuse suspected hackers ... in public threads, in pm's, or through proper channels at iccup. Because if people do like G5 and now me, and gets attention, it'll be a mess and can turn into a witch hunt.
On April 04 2008 14:03 IdrA wrote: afaik haypro is still gonna be required to make fpvods of his tournament games or some other countermeasures. it seems pretty fair given the circumstances he was caught under.
the only people who really deserved to go who didnt were the people like tt1 and vanilla who were caught more than a year ago but are still fishy as hell and havent done anything to redeem themselves.
is vanilla playing? if so he definitely should
ya hes the american smurf tsl-slugworth or something like that. he wasnt banned because he was caught in the war of the states tourny which was more than a year ago.
Omg plz any 1 from TL post 1 REAL PROOF about MistrZZZ drop hack,why he would drop hack some 1 in 4 min game when no 1 had advantage?I fell really bad for him cuz again he was accused by some racist people whit no life who just cant stand when some 1 is better then him. SAY YES TO MISTRZZZ BAN AND NO TO TT1,the funiest thing is that till now NO 1 AGAIN NO 1 post any real proof about MistrZZZ hacking so sad...Ban Pole who no 1 like and allow to play our good friends.I thought this site was make by mature people,but it seems im horrible wrong.
Dunno if you guys care about it but i tell it just to feel good to myself,whit those silly decisions about MistrZZZ,you lose so much viewers and watchers of TLS and my aswell.
TT1 FOR THE WIN!
And 1 more thing post plx those "significant evidence" cuz for now we just have words vs words.TY
On April 04 2008 15:48 Ja50n wrote: Omg plz any 1 from TL post 1 REAL PROOF about MistrZZZ drop hack,why he would drop hack some 1 in 4 min game when no 1 had advantage?I fell really bad for him cuz again he was accused by some racist people whit no life who just cant stand when some 1 is better then him. SAY YES TO MISTRZZZ BAN AND NO TO TT1,the funiest thing is that till now NO 1 AGAIN NO 1 post any real proof about MistrZZZ hacking so sad...Ban Pole who no 1 like and allow to play our good friends.I thought this site was make by mature people,but it seems im horrible wrong.
Dunno if you guys care about it but i tell it just to feel good to myself,whit those silly decisions about MistrZZZ,you lose so much viewers and watchers of TLS and my aswell.
TT1 FOR THE WIN!
And 1 more thing post plx those "significant evidence" cuz for now we just have words vs words.TY
MistrZZZ case is judged based on BIASED opinions of ppl who were involved in the conflict and surely showed Teamliquid crew up. First and foremost, for those who have not seen the replay
Here it is. As anyone can see MistrZZZ had no reason to drop from this particular game. Neither him, nor his opponent had slightest advantage. It would be obviously ludicrous to use drophack since in this particular game, at that particular moment it was obviously anyone's game. Thus we have NO motive.
Most of MistrZZZ's bad reputation comes from Paranoid's and Hullah's accusations and his so-called "bad manner". Yet, it remains unknown for most foreigners that Paranoid actually DID admit that his accusations were false. One may wonder why - but it is quite obvious. He had enough courage only to tell it to the Polish SC community. And, talking of Hullah, he turned out to be the only cheater involved in that case. If anyone got any doubts please check out his profile @ WGT. When it comes to MistrZZZ's bad manner... I cant argue with that to be honest. But when I think of TSL ranking there are "bigger" names than MistrZZZ in terms of manners, like Idra.
To sum up, frankly I dont care that much as I seem to. After all, its your tournament and your rules. But bias can be smelled in the air by everyone. Some hackers banned, good point, but others not - like haypro. I can understand that you are not banning TreK becouse he hacked "back in the days", and the rest of hackers were caught rather recently. But this event is like one of a kind, first such tremendous tournament for foreigners ever. So it is unfair that some hackers that happened to hack just before the event are not equal to those who hacked years before the event. Hacker is always a hacker, no matter what hour or day he hacked.
PS. Mind that this case may make relatons between US and Polish SCene go from bad to worse, spirits in Poland are liek "lets burn TL.net and make a war". Funny, but true.
Actually if you watch the game again, Mistrzzz is behind in his expansion (all admit not by much but still behind) and also late with his core. Not that this gives him a reason to drop hack but you cannot say it was dead even.
I am a noob myself. Go noobs! I remember when I had my 1-15 record on Iccup when I just started. my first time I won a game I was like omg O___O I ... i... i won!? omigosh, I WON! *checks replay* *eats icecream*
While I do support getting rid of hackers (heck, I life-banned like 600 accounts at WGT back in my day), but I don't think that going paranoic and banning everyone based on pure suspicion is a good thing. Making sure the event goes smoothly is just as important as treating every participant the same way.
A number of the organizing staff tested the replay, analysed the method of drop used and found significant evidence not only to show that Mistrzzz had infact abused this method but that it would have been impossible for drop to have taken place by other means. I will not go into great detail to the methods used in this investigation at this point but the drop and mistrzzz's own words after the fact made it event that he had been aware of what he was doing.
You can feel bad, you can accuse TL Staff of biases but i would suggest you save your energy and just enjoy the rest of the league.
We already said we had conclusive proof through replay. It's not because he's BM, it's not because someone accused him, it's not because we're biased. The fact that the game is close or not has no bearing on our decision and has no impact on whether the proof is concrete.
On April 04 2008 16:19 True_Spike wrote: While I do support getting rid of hackers (heck, I life-banned like 600 accounts at WGT back in my day), but I don't think that going paranoic and banning everyone based on pure suspicion is a good thing. Making sure the event goes smoothly is just as important as treating every participant the same way.
I agree. Good thing what we did wasn't even close to "going paranoic" or banning based on pure suspicion.
Why not post all the proof then? As I understand it must have something to do with actions in bwchart, if everyone knew what to look for it'd be so much easier to find more abusers.
As for Mistrz's behaviour after the game, you *do* realize he loves acting like a prick no matter the circumstances.
I belive in TL.net, I don't think you'd ban anyone for no reason, I'm just curious about the reason itself.
be consistent, for gods sake. you ban Oldy? lol. ban Haypro too. its most ridicolous thing in whole hack thing, that you truly belive him and defend him. there were like ~5 good players caught with automine option, haypro within them. what further proof you want? i have tons of suspicious moves in his replays, not good enough for being evidence though (or not good enough for you respectively). do you expect this guy is retarded and will make perfect counterdrop or sth like that every game? for gods sake, he studies mathematics, he cant be so stupid
but still he's the good one, one that got hurt badly by community. lets cry for hypro. i dont give a f**k about mistrzz, but 'evidence' for him was nowwhere as good as in hypros case (we assume this move was suspicious enough, lol). but i admit he acts like idiot, hence the community outside Poland dislikes him.
be consistent. the scene wont get better becouse of such decisions.
All fine but can you show to the community those "significant evidence" on some screens or so?And 1 more question how many poles was a judge in this USA vs POLAND case?You all just spam whole the time whit a great words etc but i think no 1 saw any REAL PROOFS just words. Show us screens not useless posts.
the misstrzz fanboys arrived; random case-sensitive, retarded smileys and non-sense punctuation included. get rid of that broodwar scum, good decision in banning them.
The germany nazi arrived BAN all poles let the Mondragon own the tour. Im not MistrZZZ fan boy at all,this case is just silly,and plz show me some "retarded smileys" cuz i dont see any. Pathetic ~~
A number of TSL Staff performed an investigation on the Mistrzzz/G5 Replay. We spent a number of hours on that specific case because we wanted to be sure. After a number of factors were taken into account with the evidence we had it becomes evident that Mistrzzz did abuse an exploit to drop.
We will not explain our methods used to determine this. Why? The same reason iCCup doesn't make their anti-hack open source. If you don't like this, QQ more. Haypro's case was investigated and he is far from on a clean slate and it will be reviewed as is seen fit. We do not devulge our processes of investigating previous hackers so that their is no chance for adaptation to our methods.
I am genuinely surprised at some of the reactions here.
Here we are, putting countless hours into creating and running a tournament on the largest scale a community-run tournament has ever reached, and people have the gall to say we're playing favorites and being biased in our decisions? We spent hours analyzing every aspect of the Mistrzzz situation, and decided that this was the best course of action.
I'm not at all pleased to see the short-sightedness of some of the posts here, to accuse us of being so utterly juvenile is a slap in the face considering the sheer workload that goes into TSL. I just banned a few of these guys. Will people now start to tell us our stance on ignorance is "wrong"? I sincerely hope not.
There are also posts that merely criticize the decision without crossing the line into offensiveness. These, of course, I have no problem with. This is our first time running something like this, and it is certainly permitted to disagree with our decisions or offer your own perspective on the matter. Obviously we aren't perfect, but we try to make the best decisions in any given situation, and I think we made the right one here.
Wow at racism accusations, you guys could find racism in a slice of bread if you wanted to. You actually think anyone cares about Poland that much to actually ban players out of spite or bad manner? Hahaha. Good job TL at taking this hacking stuff into your own hands and actually doing something about it, i'm pretty sure they are as professional as hacker investigation can get. Keep it up, i bet it's not easy.
in my opinion by banning the hackers u did something good BUT on the other hand there is no logical reason to let anyone who did ever hack stay in this tournament. And even if some people might go crazy now .. objectively.. testie and trek would have to be banned , too..
You cant argue that one hacked 1 year ago and the other 2 ,3 or even 4 and the other just a few months ago. If you dont want to look biased you basicaly have to ban every person who once hacked or cheated.
I think decisions were made to fast this time. Im really excited how you will handle this. But imho theres no reason to ban kyopo,mistrizzz,Oldy,sO.o ( even though i hate him and would ban him right away ) but not to ban Testie, Trek and every other person who used to hack. Dont get me wrong im not trying to get anyone banned who basicaly didnt do anything bad for decades now.. but u have to stay AS OBJECTIVE as possible if u ask me. Money is on the line and decisions like banning certain hackers and not banning others seems not good.
Or at least state a rule that says : If your hacking incidents are already one or two years ago and you didnt get caught hacking since then.. u may play.. but .. u see.. its getting a bit complicated when u start banning certain hackers and not banning certain other hackers..
On April 04 2008 16:49 MaGic~PhiL wrote: in my opinion by banning the hackers u did something good BUT on the other hand there is no logical reason to let anyone who did ever hack stay in this tournament. And even if some people might go crazy now .. objectively.. testie and trek would have to be banned , too..
You cant argue that one hacked 1 year ago and the other 2 ,3 or even 4 and the other just a few months ago. If you dont want to look biased you basicaly have to ban every person who once hacked or cheated.
I think decisions were made to fast this time. Im really excited how you will handle this. But imho theres no reason to ban kyopo,mistrizzz,Oldy,sO.o ( even though i hate him and would ban him right away ) but not to ban Testie, Trek and every other person who used to hack. Dont get me wrong im not trying to get anyone banned who basicaly didnt do anything bad for decades now.. but u have to stay AS OBJECTIVE as possible if u ask me. Money is on the line and decisions like banning certain hackers and not banning others seems not good.
Or at least state a rule that says : If your hacking incidents are already one or two years ago and you didnt get caught hacking since then.. u may play.. but .. u see.. its getting a bit complicated when u start banning certain hackers and not banning certain other hackers..
a rule like that isn't necessary. anyone in their right mind can see that guys like trek and testie who have apologized and proved themselves not to be hackers time and time again shouldn't be lopped into the same category as douchebags like the guys banned who were caught hacking, offered no apology, and offered no evidence as to whether or not they stopped hacking.
On April 04 2008 16:49 MaGic~PhiL wrote: in my opinion by banning the hackers u did something good BUT on the other hand there is no logical reason to let anyone who did ever hack stay in this tournament. And even if some people might go crazy now .. objectively.. testie and trek would have to be banned , too..
You cant argue that one hacked 1 year ago and the other 2 ,3 or even 4 and the other just a few months ago. If you dont want to look biased you basicaly have to ban every person who one hacked or cheated.
I think decisions were made to fast this time. Im really excited how you will handle this. But imho theres no reason to ban kyopo,mistrizzz,Oldy,sO.o ( even though i hate him and would ban him right away ) but not to band Testie, Trek and every other person who used to hack.
Or at least state a rule that says : If your hacking incidents are already one or two years ago and you didnt get caught hacking since then.. u may play.. but .. u see.. its getting a bit complicated when u start banning certain hackers and not banning certain other hackers..
One of the benefits of a tournament like this being run by a large community site is that we ourselves are members of the community. A player who has immersed himself in this community and proven his legitimacy in the manner that Testie has should be given properly relative leniency. Testie does not hack. This isn't something people wonder about, this is a fact. We do recognize that money does strange things to people, though, and obviously Testie is a sensitive subject. We'll make a decision on how to handle that situation when that decision needs to be made.
Factoring in what we know about certain players is a much better course of action than simply making broad, sweeping generalizations, because we know better. Testie has paid his dues to the community; banning him from TSL outright wouldn't be fair.
That said, not every player under suspicion has been thought through yet. The ones that were banned already are simply the players we have already made decisions about. We aren't saying that every suspected player that remains on the ladder will walk, and we aren't saying that every suspected player is doomed. No one should have any reason to interpret us as taking either stance. This is, obviously, a delicate matter. Things need to be taken case-by-case, and that's what we're doing. We will still require some players to record FPVods during their games if they make it to the top 48, which will alleviate any sort of concerns one way or another.
I'll only say this. I'm not sure where you should have drawn the line in the sand, TSL staff. I don't think anyone person can work it out and it's not my place to lecture you or even say that I believe it is wrong. What I will say however, is a sincere thanks for taking up the position because you believed it was the right thing to do and would improve the TSL's standing as whole. Much love to the creewwww <3.
On April 04 2008 16:25 lucb wrote: be consistent, for gods sake. you ban Oldy? lol. ban Haypro too. its most ridicolous thing in whole hack thing, that you truly belive him and defend him. there were like ~5 good players caught with automine option, haypro within them. what further proof you want? i have tons of suspicious moves in his replays, not good enough for being evidence though (or not good enough for you respectively). do you expect this guy is retarded and will make perfect counterdrop or sth like that every game? for gods sake, he studies mathematics, he cant be so stupid
but still he's the good one, one that got hurt badly by community. lets cry for hypro. i dont give a f**k about mistrzz, but 'evidence' for him was nowwhere as good as in hypros case (we assume this move was suspicious enough, lol). but i admit he acts like idiot, hence the community outside Poland dislikes him.
be consistent. the scene wont get better becouse of such decisions.
Who is this hypro you are speaking of. Who is crying btw? I guess mistrzz simply wont ever realise that being manner will help you in life, whatever it is. Haypro never maphacked.
It is delicate and contentious issues like these that test a community the most. However, it is clear the policy this site is taking is a step in the right direction, towards fair, affirmative action against cheating in the game we love. There is no greater sin in video gaming than hacking, and for too long hackers have gone unpunished by tournaments and organizers who are afraid to take a stand. The step we have taken today is a bold one, and we will need the community's support in the future to ensure a safe, enjoyable, and hack-free environment.
On April 04 2008 16:49 MaGic~PhiL wrote: in my opinion by banning the hackers u did something good BUT on the other hand there is no logical reason to let anyone who did ever hack stay in this tournament. And even if some people might go crazy now .. objectively.. testie and trek would have to be banned , too..
You cant argue that one hacked 1 year ago and the other 2 ,3 or even 4 and the other just a few months ago. If you dont want to look biased you basicaly have to ban every person who once hacked or cheated.
I think decisions were made to fast this time. Im really excited how you will handle this. But imho theres no reason to ban kyopo,mistrizzz,Oldy,sO.o ( even though i hate him and would ban him right away ) but not to ban Testie, Trek and every other person who used to hack. Dont get me wrong im not trying to get anyone banned who basicaly didnt do anything bad for decades now.. but u have to stay AS OBJECTIVE as possible if u ask me. Money is on the line and decisions like banning certain hackers and not banning others seems not good.
Or at least state a rule that says : If your hacking incidents are already one or two years ago and you didnt get caught hacking since then.. u may play.. but .. u see.. its getting a bit complicated when u start banning certain hackers and not banning certain other hackers..
You want a hacker to serve a lifetime sentence ? Maybe if stated in beforehand : X crime equals X punishment 1 year ban for hacking seems more than fair for most ppl , but some ppl will never stop hacking ofc since they simply dont care, i dont even understand why ppl want to defend mistrzz, is he a completely different guy @ the polish forums or whatsup?
Or at least state a rule that says : If your hacking incidents are already one or two years ago and you didnt get caught hacking since then.. u may play.. but .. u see.. its getting a bit complicated when u start banning certain hackers and not banning certain other hackers..
theyre being far more objective than they really need to be. the only apparent exception theyve made is haypro and given his circumstances i dont see how anyone can really argue it.
it would be perfectly reasonable for them to take it upon themselves to judge who has redeemed themselves and who hasnt, instead theyve just set a cutoff point. seems like a fairly generous position imo.
I definitely can see all of your points.. And Trek dont get me wrong or take this personaly. Im not naming yours and testie's name to insult you or anything or to give you bad names. You can put in Selector ( i know he is a totally different case than you and testie ) or other hackers as well.
What im trying to say is that in my opinion we need ''clear/obvious'' rules. There cant be exceptions. You shouldnt ban someone because '' you feel he has hacked a bit more than somene else, was a bad more tad mannered and is in general an asshole ''
The only viable and fair option i see is to ban hackers by looking at the fact how often they were caught and when they did do it. Which is exactly what you do. So well im running in circles and basicaly you are probably right.
BUT
it's still a more complicated matter than some might think in the first place. Not saying you are doing the wrong this, not at all. But i at least imagine if i would be any of the banned hackers i would barely stand it if any other person who did one cheat or hack stayed in the ladder.
But i come to the conclusion u probably did the right thing.. still it feels a bit.. uh.. dunno
@Trek, Testie : Really no intention to offend you. Hope u didn get it wrong.
What im trying to say is that in my opinion we need ''clear/obvious'' rules. There cant be exceptions. You shouldnt ban someone because '' you feel he has hacked a bit more than somene else, was a bad more tad mannered and is in general an asshole '
what exceptions are you talking about? they said their rule is anyone caught in the last year gets banned. the only person i see who was caught in the last year who isnt banned is haypro who was caught under very suspect circumstances. in his case he had a fairly believable excuse and theres very little reason to believe that he really is a hacker in the sense that mistrzzz, tt1, oldy, etc are.
With all of the work you guys have put into this tournament, I don't doubt that you scrutinized every angle of the MistrZZZ incident. I think you made the right decision on that one.
But...
Now you need to ban the rest of the "recent" hackers. The majority of the players are determined and legitimate . Don't forget that this tournament is for them.
@Trek: LoL, you show up in hacking threads because you hacked. Go figure. I don't feel bad for you.
To be out of the subject : When will this tournament thing start ? I see the time but he didn't mention which time zone it'd be. Nor do i see a clock in their site. It'd be pretty annoying for some of the ppl which i know they're so lazy to find the time in the site.
On April 04 2008 18:15 Phoned wrote: With all of the work you guys have put into this tournament, I don't doubt that you scrutinized every angle of the MistrZZZ incident. I think you made the right decision on that one.
But...
Now you need to ban the rest of the "recent" hackers. The majority of the players are determined and legitimate . Don't forget that this tournament is for them.
@Trek: LoL, you show up in hacking threads because you hacked. Go figure. I don't feel bad for you.
On April 04 2008 19:16 True_Spike wrote: The fact that ICCup's head admin doesn't agree with your decision means a lot, I think.
Trek ;- )
Scythe is out of the loop, at the moment he is a purely superficial leader analogous to the Queen in England. We are in the process of bringing him up to date. People who are in the loop are all staff at teamliquid and Snet/iCCup.Sn3t and possibly Raelcun
On April 04 2008 19:16 True_Spike wrote: The fact that ICCup's head admin doesn't agree with your decision means a lot, I think.
Trek ;- )
Scythe is out of the loop, at the moment he is a purely superficial leader analogous to the Queen in England. We are in the process of bringing him up to date. People who are in the loop are all staff at teamliquid and Snet/iCCup.Sn3t and possibly Raelcun
Poles, stop asking because all answer will be like "shup up you stupid fanboy". IT IS TRUE , mistrzzz played 80games,and in one of them after 5minutes of game (with g5) he decided to use a drop hack : D
Wow, just when i got excited upon reading ESPN is interested, I then read the replies. tl.net and iccup are obviously going out of their way to provide a quality tournament to foreigners and you accuse them of bias? un effin' believable.
Thanks tl.net and iccup. You're doing a hell of a job!
On April 04 2008 17:16 Hot_Bid wrote: It is delicate and contentious issues like these that test a community the most. However, it is clear the policy this site is taking is a step in the right direction, towards fair, affirmative action against cheating in the game we love. There is no greater sin in video gaming than hacking, and for too long hackers have gone unpunished by tournaments and organizers who are afraid to take a stand. The step we have taken today is a bold one, and we will need the community's support in the future to ensure a safe, enjoyable, and hack-free environment.
Wise words. This is the mindset with which to strengthen a community.
The TL staff has already accomplished so much, they deserve our trust and our support. They've shown time and again they can deliver top-notch material fueled purely by their love for this game. They're responsible for the most important event the community has seen in years. What have you done for it lately?
TL is evolving by leaps and bounds. Are you going to cling to the decrepit habits of bitching and whining and wallowing in self-defeat or are you going to prove you are worthy of their effort and show your love and dedication to what they've built and what they stand for?
Very nice, very nice. Now when hackers are LEFT out, Mushioov STANDS out! :D But for some more serious matter. I also think that ALL previous hackers should be banned. 1 month ago or 5 years ago, it DOESN'T MATTER! It should be NO MERCY policy. Too bad for you all hackers out there! Should've thought that before started hacking and ruining the enjoyment of others in such a perfect game as Starcraft.
This rule is from the "Official Rules" topic in the TSL section.
"No hacking or abusing. Again, all ladder games must be played with ICCUP's anti-hack launcher. The question on everyone's mind is "will previous hackers or abusers be allowed to play?" There will be no outright ban on previous hackers or abusers."
Then why ban people from the league because they have proviously hacked? Not that hacking is not important, but if they didn't hack in TSL they shouldn't be banned for what they've done in the past (according to your rules).
On April 04 2008 10:58 Aux1 wrote: i have no problem with the banning of hackers caught in the past, but didnt the rules say "anyone who was previously caught hacking will NOT be excluded from the tournement since they will have to play with ah on?
Yes. We changed our minds, largely due to account and drop hack abuse by some of the notorious members.
1- MistrZZZ was the only one with replay, g5 could pull out his internet to save the replay, but he wanted to make mistrzzzz look guilty.
2- Since gametime and gamelenght and not the same one of the players dischacked.
3- G5 has dischacked vs dimaga link here:http://sc.iccup.com/iccthread/23394
4- Please next time you want to crucify a player ask me before to check it, i don't want more players banned for nothing, this goes for all TSL-Admin and a part of the comunnity.
Oh man, I could totally undermine those players and be even worse. Might be something to go for next week, I want a determination award as well!
Besides that, I do believe that the TSL staff base their decisions on what is best for this tournament and not because they happen to like player A better than player B. If stuff like that started happening it would really devalue the name of this tournament and TL.net, which is something they obviously wouldn't want.
On April 04 2008 21:45 Walen wrote: 1- MistrZZZ was the only one with replay, g5 could pull out his internet to save the replay, but he wanted to make mistrzzzz look guilty.
2- Since gametime and gamelenght and not the same one of the players dischacked.
3- G5 has dischacked vs dimaga link here:http://sc.iccup.com/iccthread/23394
4- Please next time you want to crucify a player ask me before to check it, i don't want more players banned for nothing, this goes for all TSL-Admin and a part of the comunnity.
if g5 was the drophacker i find this pretty funny :D
"I dont like mistrzz either but this seems kind of weird, you almost feel bad for him until he opens his mouth and the sympati kinda fades away.
It seems that everyone agrees, even the admins, that it seemed mistrzz had no gain in drophacking at that particular time as the replay shows..but its aparently certain according to the TSL and ICCUP admins that this discthing that mistrzz did could not have been by mistake and mustve been intentional by the information we have on this dropthing today...Mistrzz then aparently lied about something (?) which made the admins think he was really hiding something.
Im then guessing they dont want to share this method they used to figured out why mistrzz disc was intentional because then other people would maybe be able to avoid it in a way making it look unintentional or something to avoid getting banned .
I donno what the right thing to do is really, but it seems like the tsl admins already made up their mind so this is how its gonna be ;p
On April 04 2008 21:45 Walen wrote: 1- MistrZZZ was the only one with replay, g5 could pull out his internet to save the replay, but he wanted to make mistrzzzz look guilty.
2- Since gametime and gamelenght and not the same one of the players dischacked.
3- G5 has dischacked vs dimaga link here:http://sc.iccup.com/iccthread/23394
4- Please next time you want to crucify a player ask me before to check it, i don't want more players banned for nothing, this goes for all TSL-Admin and a part of the comunnity.
if g5 was the drophacker i find this pretty funny :D
i find the "ask me for permission next time u ban people, bitches" quote even funnier
why are people badmouthing the freaking admins of this great event?
they have brought together one of the greatest things to come to sc in the foreign scene today.
and yet, here you guys are, badmouthing their decisions, their judgement, and their character.
that is pretty fucked up you guys.
they offer a very great prize for the event with their own pocketbooks, well i dont think they have any corporate funding.
i dunno, it just seems hella disrespectful.
i originally read through this whole thread to see the polish reaction because i knew i would get a kick out of it, but it is bordering on the edge of sanity the comments and accusations they make.
live and let live you guys, the admins are busting their chops to bring us this event.
keep up the good work you guys!!
*edit* by the way, who the hell is Walen?? i thought it was hillarious bout the ask permission from him before you ban people lol.
Being thankfull for this event is one thing, but that doesn't mean everyone has to blindly agree with everything the admins do. It doesn't show disrespect at all (as long as you voice out your criticism in a good manner), it shows that you care about the league. It's much like with SC2 - if we think something could be done better we say it out loud to make sure it'll be the best game ever made.
I'm sure the tl.net admins understand that perfectly, but some of you don't. Constructive criticism is always better than blind support.
PWNT @ hackers!! Tl ftw, I wish every league/ladder would take the same stance on these guys. Btw Im sure Selector thinks twice about participating in TSL now... Im sure he read this and stopped playing on his TSL smurf cus he realized hed be banned the second he would have to reveal his ID :D Sux to be a cheater
holy shit i cant believe people are questioning staff's decisions...
this is a fucking STARLEAGUE not some pansy little $50 tourny... the last thing a group of amazing people (who have just put together the biggest thing in foreign starcraft ever!) need is to be critizised and questioned. Why are they banning some and not others? probably for the same reason they put on this whole shebang...
It's funny how someones assumptions become facts for some Poland fans here. "I read in forum that G5 hacked with 0 proof and no replay" equals "G5 100% hacked, lets spread the word" but when admins of largest league in foreign scene say that they spent countless hours researching and proving Mistrzzz hacked, it's somehow refuted and ignored. I'm sure TL.net is concerned about their integrity as much as they are concerned about keeping TSL hack-free zone. Also the "Mistrzzz had no reason to drop hack at that point in game" argument brings a thought to mind - "what would be better time to drop hack to cause least suspicion?". Just food for thought for raging defenders (and no its not a fact, just thought).
When I first heard about TSL I thought this is awesome because it will show us who the real top players outside of Korea are. There has never been a huge event like this with huge cash prizes that every one can enter before, which should motivate all players enough to really sort out really how good people are. With the banning of all Chinese and now these 5 hackers/bad manners I don't feel it will answer the question of who are the top players definitively.
This does not mean it was a bad decision, there is no perfect answer and the staff had to make choices to give as good as show as possible. But the banning of these hackers/bad manners disturbs me for a couple of reasons. As for the 4 hackers, I guess it is widely acknowledged that they hacked within a year from now (how this is decided is a whole other issue), but at the start of TSL it said they would be allowed to play. Imagine how a past hacker might have felt about TSL: "I made a mistake earlier by hacking in XX event, it has really tarnished my name, but now I can participate in the TSL where they have strong anti hack measures, I can finally show that I am really a top player even without hack."
Now probably not all of the banned hackers think like this, maybe some still think they can beat the system, but I seriously doubt that they will with ICCUP launcher and FPVODS should just be required of people in question. So here you give these hackers a second chance, and they spend days trying to climb up the ladder to prove themselves, and you say "HA just kidding fuck you hackers, once a hacker always a hacker. Not only will we ban you and make all the time you spent hack free wasted, we will remind everyone that you are hackers."
As for misterzzz, this is how it looks: "we don't like this guy, and just take our word for it, he used drop hack." Well I would take your word for it if you were impartial but you aren't, the fact that you spent hours analyzing a replay from a game that was even after 4 minutes for drop hack proves that you have an agenda. I'm not saying misterzzz didn't drop hack, and I'm not asking you to disclose your method, but I would like link to download the replay so we can at least attempt to make our own conclusions. I really do find it unlikely that if someone really did want to disconnect after 4 minutes that they would risk using a hack on iccup, why not just pull the ethernet cable?
That being said this is your starleague and you don't have to listen to me, this is just me, one spectator's impression. I like you want this to be an awesome league so I share my concerns, good luck with the rest of the season.
On April 04 2008 10:26 jkillashark wrote: You make StarCraft awesome.
Manliest festo of them all
I really have to agree 150% here. As I already told Mani in a ICC pm, I am euphoric about this whole project and I honestly think that this has the potential to form and evolve e-sports in general. I am flabbergasted that not a company but a community took the first BIG step into the right direction and created this awesome league.
really i dont like mistrzzz at all but i think if mistrzzz was banned for 4 min game then g5 should be banned to his disc hack vs dimaga no need even to discuss for that
On April 04 2008 22:40 True_Spike wrote: Being thankfull for this event is one thing, but that doesn't mean everyone has to blindly agree with everything the admins do. It doesn't show disrespect at all (as long as you voice out your criticism in a good manner), it shows that you care about the league. It's much like with SC2 - if we think something could be done better we say it out loud to make sure it'll be the best game ever made.
I'm sure the tl.net admins understand that perfectly, but some of you don't. Constructive criticism is always better than blind support.
i agree 100%, CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM is a very good way to make your disagreements known. but you have to admit, not all the people on this forum who are bashing the admins for banning of mistrzzzz is doing this. I was mainly aiming at those people with my post. it isnt cool when people just blindly accuse and bash admins when they have gone over and over again, it wasn't an arbituary decision, it was well thought out and calculated one.
just general bashing without support, destrcutive criticism and whatever not isnt helpful to this thread, or the community as a whole. remember when all of us had the scare where baezzi was about to quit his services to us with his vod uploads because of assholes who kept leaving possibly the most stupidest comments ever on his videos? that is what i am talking about.
it all comes down to, use ur brain and dont fuck it up for the rest of us -_-;
7290 azureMIStrZZZ Hotkey Assign,2 7294 TSL-G5 Leave Game player dropped 7294 azureMIStrZZZ Hotkey Assign,2
you have to press [mod edit: key combination removed] to drophack, you have to press crtl+number to assign, so crtl+[mod edit] doesn't work to drophack, so g5 was the one dischacking.
If G5 is proven guilty then Mistrz should be unbanned, because of what Walen just posted. Given the fact he's a ladder SA over at ICCup I think he knows what he's talking about.
Just as Trek says. They obviously can't come out with the exact way to proove that he was in fact drop-hacking, because then the hack-developers would come up with a "solution" to that pretty fast, and be one step ahead (as most hacks / hijacks / whatsoever mostly are) again. Just think logical, Polish fanboys...why would the admins lie about having the exact method and proof if they put so much dedication to the event? Do you think they lie about that too? Then you're beyond salvation, look at what they've done so far.
I'd suggest you play a game of Mafia if this kind of logical thinking doesn't suit you yet, it helps to improve. Trust me.
Even though I stopped playing SC again (screw Testie and DotA <3) TL staff deserves mad props for this. And of course: gogo Ace[F2F]!
Facts: -Apr 01 : G5 use drophack vs DIMAGA -Apr 02 : G5 lose 1st game vs Mistrzzz - G5 use drophack (?) in 2 game vs Mistrzzz (4 min game) and told that Mistrzzz is a drophacker
I think this is don't true that mistrzzz drophack because he dont have any reason to do that. G5 lose 1st game vs Mistrzzz and mayby he try to vengeance on mistrzzz... Mistrzzz can win without hacks...
I have heard from polish friends, that every person from their comunnity who is asking for evidence of Mistrzzz`s ban is banned on TL ;/ The situation seems to be really strange for me, especially when somebody recived ban without evidence, it is so big problem to show them? The same with rules, I thought that the rules are the same for everyone... Some players are banned, some are still allowed to play. It looks like somebody wants to set up ranking... It is really offence to say sth like that: "You ruin StarCraft" and give no evidence. Hopeless.
On April 05 2008 02:07 Naib wrote: Just as Trek says. They obviously can't come out with the exact way to proove that he was in fact drop-hacking, because then the hack-developers would come up with a "solution" to that pretty fast, and be one step ahead (as most hacks / hijacks / whatsoever mostly are) again. Just think logical, Polish fanboys...why would the admins lie about having the exact method and proof if they put so much dedication to the event? Do you think they lie about that too? Then you're beyond salvation, look at what they've done so far.
I'd suggest you play a game of Mafia if this kind of logical thinking doesn't suit you yet, it helps to improve. Trust me.
Even though I stopped playing SC again (screw Testie and DotA <3) TL staff deserves mad props for this. And of course: gogo Ace[F2F]!
He didn't use a hack, it's a bug. You don't need anything running to perform it. And Walen just proved that it was in fact G5 who used this bug, not Mistrz.
On April 05 2008 02:07 Naib wrote: Just as Trek says. They obviously can't come out with the exact way to proove that he was in fact drop-hacking, because then the hack-developers would come up with a "solution" to that pretty fast, and be one step ahead (as most hacks / hijacks / whatsoever mostly are) again. Just think logical, Polish fanboys...why would the admins lie about having the exact method and proof if they put so much dedication to the event? Do you think they lie about that too? Then you're beyond salvation, look at what they've done so far.
I'd suggest you play a game of Mafia if this kind of logical thinking doesn't suit you yet, it helps to improve. Trust me.
Even though I stopped playing SC again (screw Testie and DotA <3) TL staff deserves mad props for this. And of course: gogo Ace[F2F]!
He didn't use a hack, it's a bug. You don't need anything running to perform it. And Walen just proved that it was in fact G5 who used this bug, not Mistrz.
So if you come up with a way to know who used it, you'd reveal it to the public so the abuser can circumvent it? I don't think so. But feel free to argue, fire away.
No, I would not. In fact, I did not many times back in my day. The thing is TSL staff claimed to have strong evidence of Mistrz using this particular drop bug in the game vs G5 (after hours spent on analysing the replay provided by Mistrz who uploaded it on Netwars.pl minutes after G5 made his thread over at tl.net), but refused to reveal it to the public as to not reveal the way they work to potential abusers - and that I understand and can't argue with. But since now Walen posted contradicting evidence pointing out it was impossible for Mistrz to use this bug I just don't know what to think anymore. And I won't form any claims or opinions on this matter before I hear out what TSL staff has to say about what Walen just posted.
On April 04 2008 10:58 Aux1 wrote: i have no problem with the banning of hackers caught in the past, but didnt the rules say "anyone who was previously caught hacking will NOT be excluded from the tournement since they will have to play with ah on?
Yes. We changed our minds, largely due to account and drop hack abuse by some of the notorious members.
Only you sir have the balls to do what every previous tournament organizer wouldn't. Thank god for TL.net, thank god for Manifesto7.
On April 05 2008 00:09 flag wrote: When I first heard about TSL I thought this is awesome because it will show us who the real top players outside of Korea are. There has never been a huge event like this with huge cash prizes that every one can enter before, which should motivate all players enough to really sort out really how good people are. With the banning of all Chinese and now these 5 hackers/bad manners I don't feel it will answer the question of who are the top players definitively.
This does not mean it was a bad decision, there is no perfect answer and the staff had to make choices to give as good as show as possible. But the banning of these hackers/bad manners disturbs me for a couple of reasons. As for the 4 hackers, I guess it is widely acknowledged that they hacked within a year from now (how this is decided is a whole other issue), but at the start of TSL it said they would be allowed to play. Imagine how a past hacker might have felt about TSL: "I made a mistake earlier by hacking in XX event, it has really tarnished my name, but now I can participate in the TSL where they have strong anti hack measures, I can finally show that I am really a top player even without hack."
Now probably not all of the banned hackers think like this, maybe some still think they can beat the system, but I seriously doubt that they will with ICCUP launcher and FPVODS should just be required of people in question. So here you give these hackers a second chance, and they spend days trying to climb up the ladder to prove themselves, and you say "HA just kidding fuck you hackers, once a hacker always a hacker. Not only will we ban you and make all the time you spent hack free wasted, we will remind everyone that you are hackers."
As for misterzzz, this is how it looks: "we don't like this guy, and just take our word for it, he used drop hack." Well I would take your word for it if you were impartial but you aren't, the fact that you spent hours analyzing a replay from a game that was even after 4 minutes for drop hack proves that you have an agenda. I'm not saying misterzzz didn't drop hack, and I'm not asking you to disclose your method, but I would like link to download the replay so we can at least attempt to make our own conclusions. I really do find it unlikely that if someone really did want to disconnect after 4 minutes that they would risk using a hack on iccup, why not just pull the ethernet cable?
That being said this is your starleague and you don't have to listen to me, this is just me, one spectator's impression. I like you want this to be an awesome league so I share my concerns, good luck with the rest of the season.
Couldnt have said it better myself. Dont take me wrong... I love TSL and everything it stands for, for the foreign scene we are now one step closer to that "professionalism" that koreans bathe in each and every day. But with an event of this calibur and this "professional", it's therefore your duty (staff) to inform the community (us) with details. Not providing the community with evidence and just saying "We have strong proof" completely disregards the amount of professionalism you staff have worked so hard to build. And now that there's even proof saying that the one hacking wasn't Mistrzzzz but G5... to be frank, I'm quite disappointed.
put G5 to the sword. NO HONOR AT ALL! LEGEND TOSS FULL RESPECT TO U, I AM UR LOYAL FAN AND NEVER DOUBTED UR GREATNESS!
bows to lord walen and mistrzzz
spits on G5 G5, you are the lowest of the lowest of the lowest of the low, no words to describe how evil your act was, you are a disgrace, and framing mistrzzz like that was inexcusable.
walen, you are a hero. GJ man, good guys win this one. G5 loses. Big time.
you guys think g5 would use a drop glitch that gives the opponent the win and fucks up the time stamp on the game but not the replay that the player with the shorter replay would have? That is a bit of a stretch yeah?
This is ridiculous seeing everyone smashing misterzzz and now G5, please people don't jump to conclusions so fast. TL hasn't had chance to defend themselves yet.
Now I think TL should reveal how they "knew" misterzzz used drop bug (and what drop bug actually is). The reason they didn't before is because then people could circumvent it, but this is absurd because just knowing they you know how to detect it is reason enough not to use it, and they will just use alternative method to disconnect (aka pulling the plug), which is impossible to detect as intentional or not.
In my experience on battle.net, I have found that hackers are the ones who throw out the most hack accusations (probably because they think everyone is like them and thus hacking). This sort of fits with accusations against misterzzz. Originally one of the accusers was ToT)hullah, but it was later found from a replay that in one of his games he had used warden watch (program to prevent loss after win when using other hacks). And now it is found that G5 accuses misterzzz and also has a complaint against himself that it is him drop hacking. Now I am not saying G5 and Hullah are hackers, but I do feel that there is stronger evidence against them than misterzzz.
I'm not misterzzz fan, I don't even know him, but from what I hear he is a total asshole bad manner, and from what I've seen that is true, but the only place I have seem him talk was in threads defending himself against hack accusations. I would be a little annoyed if I had to defend myself against a shit load of people all jumping on the band wagon too. Besides iloveoov used to be and asshole, but MSL and OSL didn't ban him from participating and it's a good thing too.
well, being BM shouldnt have anything to do with this issue becouse a lot of top players in TSL arent good mannnered either.. after losing a game everyone is mad for a while i fully undrestand this
anyone noticed the polish fanboys "using other countries"?
haha
dunno why but it cracked me up...
I was ready to ask that "italian" guy something in italian but google translatetions would save him hehehe... and the UK guy that said: "I heard from polish friends that you are baning them" hahaha
whats bad about having a small talk where everyone can make some statment and express their opinion? thats forum about starcraft and cheating is unfortunatly a 'part' of it
Polish people should really learn how to post proper constructive arguments instead of flaming and bashing TL, TSL, US or whatever other country they don't like. It's not benefiting you or anyone you try defend here. It took 6 lines for Waren to make more decent argument than all of polish spammers in every forum combined. Keep it cool and keep it civilized.
On April 05 2008 03:41 Jusciax wrote: Polish people should really learn how to post proper constructive arguments instead of flaming and bashing TL, TSL, US or whatever other country they don't like. It's not benefiting you or anyone you try defend here. It took 6 lines for Waren to make more decent argument than all of polish spammers in every forum combined. Keep it cool and keep it civilized.
Lets focus on what really matters here! FUCKING LEGIONAIRE MIGHT BE BACK and DAY rules for putting up some of his hard earned cash. \m/ go tl.net you guys are pwnin it up!
hi i was banned for no reason .. someone told me on battle net and i see im banned and why.. for a "loss" in the profile .. i think is really stupid im not banned from anysite cause the final decision of my case was "u can get a loss in the game for other reason" and who answer that? NuNo send a email to blizzard and the people of blizzard answer that and the admins of wgt and qcup decide to don't ban me cause the proof is a little stupid ... soo why u here ban me.. i was never caught hacking or using oblivion like haypro or the others .. i think is a little stupid my ban i was really happy playing this league and now im really sad cause i can't play i hope tl.net can reconsidered my case .. i really want to play this league .. thanks for read my comment and sorry for my english
On April 05 2008 00:09 flag wrote: So here you give these hackers a second chance, and they spend days trying to climb up the ladder to prove themselves, and you say "HA just kidding fuck you hackers, once a hacker always a hacker. Not only will we ban you and make all the time you spent hack free wasted, we will remind everyone that you are hackers."
I have to say I agree with flag on that point. It's one thing to ban hackers from the beginning. Heck, you can ban anyone you like, you don't even need a reason. But it's not fair to say, "ex-hackers can play" and then ban them 4 days later for being ex-hackers. It's stealing their time, at the very least, and it makes a lie of your previous words. If you say something, you should stick to it. My 2 cents, but I appreciate the work that the admins put into running something like this, and that they're trying to do the right thing.
It's so sad that when "Polish fanboys" come with legitimate concerns like the fact that there's no proof for Mistrzz hacking, or if there is, the admins refuse to release it, and are just dismissed as "rofl i'm on the bandwagon rofl polish fanboys rofl." Add that to the rampant dislike and biased treatment of Mistrzz in the past on TL.net and I can't say I trust the decision whatsoever without any sort of empirical proof. I hate Mistrzz antics and rudeness as much as the next guy, but like someone before said, you really do feel kind of sorry for the guy until he opens his dumb fat mouth. Of course, I see the difficult situation in revealing how you know he's hacking. It's all just one big sticky situation. I see both sides of it.
On April 04 2008 21:45 Walen wrote: 1- MistrZZZ was the only one with replay, g5 could pull out his internet to save the replay, but he wanted to make mistrzzzz look guilty.
2- Since gametime and gamelenght and not the same one of the players dischacked.
3- G5 has dischacked vs dimaga link here:http://sc.iccup.com/iccthread/23394
4- Please next time you want to crucify a player ask me before to check it, i don't want more players banned for nothing, this goes for all TSL-Admin and a part of the comunnity.
if g5 was the drophacker i find this pretty funny :D
i find the "ask me for permission next time u ban people, bitches" quote even funnier
Maybe because he's a super admin at ICCUP? And he just wanted some notice of it, he didn't demand anything; he knows what he's doing in checking for hacks and he is requesting that he be allowed to do so himself as well before players are banned
I don't see anything special in that replay, except the obvious that G5 was dropped first (or the game did desync happened or a drophack was used, both of which do not fit G5s description). 4 frames after G5 was dropped mistrzzz has several actions during the same frame, which indicates he experienced lag some frames before, probably at the moment G5 was kicked. So I did not see any evidence one way or the other. But of cause pausehack does not leave any traces. Only thing which seems improbable is, that G5 pausehacked mistrzzz. But I don't see if G5 pulled the plug while he was hanging on the dropscreen unable to drop, or if he did it without cause. There is one way to pausehack, which does not require any hacks, but is included in SC itself. This pausehack is not detected by ICCup yet, but there are plans to block it in future versions of the AH.
I'm gonna join as soon as school's over and join those guys in the Respect category. I'm gonna take you all on and get stomped. I'm gonna bring everything I've got. I'm gonna focus all my effort into my 70 apm. I'm not going to cheese no matter how many times I get bunker rushed, cannoned, or 5 pooled. I'm going to go ultras against carriers. I'm going to compliment every single player that beats me in less than 5 minutes... which will be plenty. I'm going to bring a new meaning to the status of D-.
On April 05 2008 07:09 Desolate.GreY wrote: I'm gonna join as soon as school's over and join those guys in the Respect category. I'm gonna take you all on and get stomped. I'm gonna bring everything I've got. I'm gonna focus all my effort into my 70 apm. I'm not going to cheese no matter how many times I get bunker rushed, cannoned, or 5 pooled. I'm going to go ultras against carriers. I'm going to compliment every single player that beats me in less than 5 minutes... which will be plenty. I'm going to bring a new meaning to the status of D-.
Coming soon.
I will see you on monday and I promise that I will try to keep up with you in every way I possibly can. And if you manage to be even worse than me I can always play random.
On April 05 2008 02:55 {88}iNcontroL wrote: you guys think g5 would use a drop glitch that gives the opponent the win and fucks up the time stamp on the game but not the replay that the player with the shorter replay would have? That is a bit of a stretch yeah?
mad props to TL.net staff for running this shit and putting up with these ban/hack experts that just recently decided to sign up on TL.net just so they could clog up the fucking thread. i don't want to start a flame war so i'm just going to say this.
if you're not very sharp and very up to date on current affairs i advise you keep your mouth closed. too many times have people talked without much expertise in the subject and made complete fools out of themselves. it creates a lot of stress and frustration for the staff running this to keep replying to your shit. im not being a rascist or a grammar fag but i can clearly see that a lot of you don't have a very civil tone in your posts.
as has been mentioned twice in very large fonts. it is being investigated. and if the staff chooses to not release their methods? then so be it.
run your own starleague if you think you can do better.
This g5/mistrzzz case is just so painful to read...
I understand well, that admins want the starcraft foreign scene to grow up healthy, however, their last decisions, in my modest opinion, are so unbelievably bad for their youngest hopeful child of their own - the mighty tsl. The case of Chinese gosus was already bad, but also unavoidable. It weakened the child's might but there was no other choice. But, only Koreans know, why in this fatal context other two bad for scene decisions has come. The firs one - the lie about past hackers. Personally, when I was reading the announcement I could not believe it is really happening. I went even further, I have started to lie to myself, that I do not understand what is written there, my opinion on tl/tsl was so excellent that I could not say to myself that such an unprofessional behavior could happen to tsl admins. But it happened. And now the other thing came up. The g5/mistrzzz and walen's simplest observation on actions timings. This and following observations on possible g5/mistrzzz motivations to disc were just enough to put tsl admins hours-taking conclusions into doubts. Well, this is not good, particularly because of use of all these strong/lately fatal words. But still wise decisions can be taken.
I know that I am just a freelancer commentator meaning nothing, but I also hope for foreign starcraft scene development as admins do. And I truly hope that there would be no doubts after renewed decision in g5/mistrzzz case. I vote for this.
i had a question regarding the banning of past hackers, i have no objection to it, but if you're goingmt o ban all previous hackers why was haypro allowed to continue to play? nothing personal against haypro just wanted to clarification because this occured to me
Only thing I have to say from my own perspective is that I am slightly disappointed that 6 hours of investigation of a 4 minute replay from different groups can result in the wrong decision.
Possibly to counteract this in the future, ICCUP administrators who possibly have more experience in searching replays for anything suspicious could be involved in the investigative action.
Just my 2 cents, thanks for the tournament and I cant wait to start watching the top 32 / 16 etc
EPT
![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/staff/pachi/xd/TSLworld_t.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Manifesto7/TSL/day_4_standings.PNG)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Manifesto7/TSL/day4determination.PNG)
Manliest festo of them all 
lol
Very happy to see Mistrzz banned, his pathetic attitude to others was reason enough for the ban.
