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[LP] Protoss Capitalists (1 Gate FE vs. T)
October 19th, 2010 20:46 GMT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Imperator/Liquipedia/LP1LP2Banner.jpg) Liquipedia Weekly #8
This week's Weekly concludes our strategic adventures. Since we have covered Terran and Zerg before, we are now taking Protoss matter into hand!
In the matchup against Terran, Protoss players had to face unforseen inconveniences. Brood War had them accustomed to easily out-expanding the Terran, throwing up a bazzilion Gates and crushing every Terran uprising within the blink of an eye. In StarCraft II, this changed. Too many brethren from Aiur fell victim to uncalled-for violence by weak Marines and their fiery bear companions. Over time, the answer became painfully obvious: It's the economy, stupid! Regaining the economic lead would shut down the Terran menace once and for all.
One challenger stood up to the task. Possibly one of the most successful strategy threads for SC2 has been [G] kcdc's PvT FE. 44 Pages and not closed down due to imba rages, unconstructive banter, and flaming? Still being maintained by the thread starter? Something must be going on! Of course, all good stuff must end up on the wiki one day. And so has the
Quite a few people have been working on this ... (Click me!)
Build Order
Must ... make ... more ... Probes
The build order is very basic and leaves you with a small force, 2 Nexus, 2 Warpgates, and a Robotics. Pretty decent, eh?
Adaptation Adapting a general build such as 1 Gate FE is a most complicated task. Our authors have tried to list your main options concisely, as well as predicting what Terran could possibly throw at you. As the TOC illustrates, that task is being taken very seriously.
Help needed!
Fleshing out the implications of a build as general and complex as this one is hard. Every time something gets patched, there will be some leftovers and rough edges that need to be worked on again.
Old as a Hydralisk-fossil
So, kind, average TL user, with your IQ of 130 and perfectly toned body, direct your browser to that page, unload the treasuries of your knowledge, and add some of your 2200+ Diamond replays to give it the finishing touch.
- Liquipedia staff out!
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PM a Liquipedia Staff Member: Aesop, Pholon, Imperator, Mystlord, Steeeeve, TheFallofTroy
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I'm sure we'll see some sort of play like this during the GSL, but as I play Zerg I love watching this match-up and anything to see it progress is a +1!
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Have really enjoyed these articles - liquipedia staff does not got enough credit on this site!
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HuK did this in the MGL, good build, must try this.
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:D popularized by Plot bros XD
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hmmm verry interesting strat , I think I will surely test it , tough if a terran scv scouts ur early nexus , the terran would be easily able to take it down with about 4 marines or 3 marines 1 marauder ? got to test it  thanks for sharing this strategy ( always nice to have more strategy's )
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My friend who is a ~1200 diamond protoss was trying this against me in practise games and I just rolled over it with 3-rax. Neither of us played perfectly but eh, it seems so risky.
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Nice stuff I'm going to try this, thanks.
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i love liquipedia, since i missed the beta it helped me right from the start and every few days i get back to it to watch out for new stuff. love it and appreciate all the effort from all the autors. thanks!
(and thanks for the protoss love)
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Hmmm, i do this since a long (relative) time now. But i get more gates (about 8 on 2 bases) and an fast 3rd if possible. key is to have a bunch of stalkers and then only zealots.
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I'm too scared to try this strat -_- I can barely stop MM from steam rolling me in the first 5 mins just because if they push out with early 2 maruders and some marines with concussive its so hard to stop.
But I will try it now that the void ray nerf makes my 3 gate void null
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I like this build alot, sometimes you have to use your probes to defend and you cut it close but i almost always beat rushes with this.
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This build doesn't work on most maps. I can see htis working in jungle basin or lost temple with a small choke. Maps like xel caverns = insta gg if terran knows what hes doing.
3rax can kill2gate robo (with no ff choke).
now imagine 3rax vs 2gaterobo + nexus
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I've tried this, got rolled over by MM, then I didnt wanna do it again. I guess I just suck bad.
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awesome build. i lost like 2 games out of 20 against terran using this build
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I've used this before, I liked it pretty well. But I normally just 2gate/robo in to expo 'cause I usually have a vagina when I'm playing vs Terrans.
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On October 20 2010 06:50 da_head wrote:
awesome build. i lost like 2 games out of 20 against terran using this build
same here  once i learned to defend rushes by pulling probes and scouting better i started steamrolling my friends. I also learned to simply 3gate expand instead if i see a marine all in 
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i was doing it to great success when i tested out some toss games :p won some top player terrans xd
On October 20 2010 06:43 Vz0 wrote:
This build doesn't work on most maps. I can see htis working in jungle basin or lost temple with a small choke. Maps like xel caverns = insta gg if terran knows what hes doing.
3rax can kill2gate robo (with no ff choke).
now imagine 3rax vs 2gaterobo + nexus
not true :p
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On October 20 2010 06:43 Vz0 wrote:
This build doesn't work on most maps. I can see htis working in jungle basin or lost temple with a small choke. Maps like xel caverns = insta gg if terran knows what hes doing.
3rax can kill2gate robo (with no ff choke).
now imagine 3rax vs 2gaterobo + nexus
The only build that i have trouble with are marine allins and marine/SCV allins. I have found that you need to add more gateways before the nexus to hold this off. Other than that pulling probes will work against anything else. Probes r 4 fite
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The build isn't set in stone... obviously toss can adapt his or her play depending on what he sees terran doing. Sometimes I do this build but throw down 3-4 gates quickly while cutting probes after nexus, if I feel like terran is going to push me. The build is also not as dangerous as you think. It's just important to make zealots to tank marauder shots, while stalkers fire from behind.
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I saw replays of White-Ra ages ago of this build and he was chatting that it works on everything except against some 3 rax terran rushes. He mentioned it can hold even against banchees.
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i find this BO very very good just we all have separate variations ;D
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you cannot stop a 3 gate with this. for everything else its good
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awesome gonna practice this!
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Oeh some new entrance. Will try this out so kudos to the authors of this guide.
This was made during 1.1.2 or is it outdated already :p
Will try it anyways so thanks :d atleast LP = reliable unlike bronze/silver levels claiming this sucks etc lolol.
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This style is pretty much my standard against terran right now, provided it's not on Steppes or close positions on metal or something like that. I usually get the nexus down ~4:50 with one zealot and a stalker out and one stalker on the way out. I'll upload a few replays if needed. My nexus typically goes down on 31 food at which point i stop probe production, have the probe that made the nexus mine minerals at the expansion, make 2 gateways in my main at which point i have ~100 minerals when the probe reaches the expansion again and have it throw down a pylon
then I resume probe production and throw down a robo. You get the obs out in time for cloaked banshees.
The only problem I have had with this build is against things like 1 base marine ghost all in, 1 base marine thor all in and that sort of thing. The important thing is to gauge your opponent's production and figure out if he is doing a 1 base build and to respond with MORE GATE WAYS, NOT FAST TECH. If you still have 4 gate ways by the time the 1 base all in comes, you pretty much lose.
I really like this build and it has done well by me. I'll upload some replays in a minute
replay1
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/93214-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
replay2
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/93215-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns
edit: added replays
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Awesome that liquidpedia is taking in builds like this, tho there are two clear variants in this build, the one gas version, which relies on stalker zealot into ht tech.
and the two (quick gas) version which relies more on sentry play, but has a nice transition into sentry collolus.
I find the latter is harder to execute, but has more potential strength against both allin rushes (see tester vs masq's 5 rax marine), and in the mid-game (sentries grow in potential as they regen more energy)
As far as I'm aware at the moment there is no terran build that can get a certain kill on this build. Against 3 rax, zealot stalker, you have to keep your zealots tucked in to your stalkers, but still forcing the maruaders to shoot them.
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nice work! I hope this easily kills the qq'ing of toss players, if much at all
loved this btw
So, kind, average TL user, with your IQ of 130 and perfectly toned body, direct your browser to that page, unload the treasuries of your knowledge, and add some of your 2200+ Diamond replays to give it the finishing touch.
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i try this weeks before,, works not often well against 3rax marine push
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ive been 1gate exping since 3 months
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Well, this build, in my opinion doubles the chances of early defeat against terran. There's a high risk, that the terran player, will wait for the nexus to finish, and just do an all in, which would be pretty easy for the terran to do, even if you can split his units on the ramp.
Just seems highly unlikely, that the game will last very long, since the terran will have to deal with the early expansion, if that fails, and the terran units are killed, it's pretty much 'gg' for him.
It also just takes one scan, for the terran player, to only see the 1 gateway, and maybe, the second on it's way. Which probably also will make him push out for an early win.
It just gives the protoss player a general disadvantage because it is so easily scouted, no matter the map.
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seems like 3rax MM auto wins vs it?
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On October 20 2010 09:23 koOma wrote:
seems like 3rax MM auto wins vs it?
This is a build that was created to defeat the 3rax and end up ahead economically. so no, if you do it right you won't lose to early barracks attacks.
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People should read the linked (massive) thread where possible terran counters are discussed.
The only thing that really hard counters this is a massive rax all-in where terran brings at least half their SCVs to tank.
Standard 3 rax or any non-allin variation of it does not kill it if toss is on top of his scouting.
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This PvT strategy page does not contain the word "Ghost" a single time. Some additional discussion on the implications of ghost (specifically EMP), adjustments and tactics to make might be highly beneficial!
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On October 20 2010 09:39 Muey wrote:
People should read the linked (massive) thread where possible terran counters are discussed.
The only thing that really hard counters this is a massive rax all-in where terran brings at least half their SCVs to tank.
Standard 3 rax or any non-allin variation of it does not kill it if toss is on top of his scouting.
yeah you have to watch out for BIO/SCV allins, i don't know how to stop them but i think you could FF your ramp and save your main if you cannot hold your natural.
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As a terran having massive troubles against Protoss, how should I respond to this without all-ins?
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On October 20 2010 09:59 Feverus wrote:
As a terran having massive troubles against Protoss, how should I respond to this without all-ins?
putting up your natural when you see him take his is a pretty good response
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I love this build use it every PvT 1500 diamond
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I have been using this build for awhile now. I love it. Fast expo against terran is just so great. This build is one of the reasons I think pvt is the easiest protoss mu.
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The whole point of zealot+chronoboosted stalker is that you scout the front of the terran with the zealot+stalker, and determine whether it's safe to FE or to add gateway(s) and/or robo for immortal to stop early pressure (M&M, banshee rush, w/e) The zealot+stalker will hit at a timing that the T won't have more than a few units out, so you can poke, take a pot shot or two on bio units (try to only take shield damage yourself - terran doesn't heal til medivacs!), and force the terran to show you his hand, and back off.
If he's doing an early 1base push, you can build up a bit more before expanding (depends on map too)
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The small contributions I made to the strategy are not really apparent based on the entry. Credit kcdc (started thread), markwef (came up with bo, though not exactly one shown), and Zazaodh(started liquipedia page).
Main things to add and explain for the build early on to my mind are 1. scouting with probe & scouting with z/stalker, 2. unit composition/the sentry issue, 3.number of gates/robo timing.
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personally this build has been feeling a bit weak to me and needs more umph. lately ive switched to huks version of this build where he gets 3 quick gateways, and a robotics when he feels he needs it. also save up chrono boost just in case you need to warp in tons of units quickly.
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I can see this becoming a staple opening on big maps like LT or SP. It's just really good.
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Woot. Love seeing my ID pop up around TL now. Only thing I'd add is that I really think you need 3 gates before robo on all but very long rush distances unless you're pretty sure they're not going for early pressure (you've scouted a factory in a spot that's not likely to float into your base while MM hits the front).
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In my opinion, this build order isn't bad at all but too risky against some T players who usually play "micro game".
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I've been having a ton of succes going the good old 2rax (1 reactor, 1 tech lab) into 2 starport banshee (raven first) and hitting when combat shields is done after stim. I pull 15 SCVs to make sure I kill the natural while expanding at the same time. The Protoss usually ends up gging or contained in his base while I pull ahead with 2 mules (12 SCVs).
Also 2 rax expanding and then putting up another 2 rax after the CC (2 blank, 2 tech lab) and macroing up and getting all bio upgrades (CS, conc, stim) and hitting precisely at 9:00 while microing a lot. If the Protoss isn't worlds above you you will easily be able to get his army out of position or use his forcefields so his zealots cannot hit you (never let zealots get close to you, NEVER). Be very cautious when you stim since over-stimming is gonna kill you.
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[QUOTE with your IQ of 130 and perfectly toned body
it's like you're spying on me.
anyways i'll check it out sounds interesting!
muchos respectos to you guys at liquipedia, learned a lot from your site ^^
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Im using my own variation of this and have been for about 2 months now, easily my standard opening =].
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This build actually works really really well. Just have to spread and micro your early units properly against early aggression and once you hold it off you're ahead.
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Popularized by Day9? Oh come on
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Hmm..... I don't like capitalism -_-
But anyways nice to see some FE build order, and yes i know FE is map dependant(unless you know EXCACTLY how to pull it of timingwise) but i might try this on larger maps like metapolis or LT.
Might even post a rep, but I think TL can live on without one.
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I shouldn't be credited for this, I only stole it from kcdc and posted a build order and other stuff in that thread. It is the most solid build order there is against T now I think, especially since the 1.1.2 voidray nerf and nexus HP buff.
The exact build order isn't set in stone though so it isn't the most appropiate thing for a liquipedia article perhaps but I mostly use this:
9 pylon
13 gate
15 assimilator
16 pylon
18 cyber
19 zealot
21 pylon
22 stalker
26 zealot
30 nexus
30 sentry
Then either 2 gateways or 1 gateway and 1 robo depending on what you scout.
2 additional gateways is safer vs MMM play and 1 robo is safer vs anything else (marine/tank, banshee pushes etc.)
Early scouting is hardly important anymore since 1.1.2 the only thing your probe scout is determine where the terran base is at really, therefore I send it at 15 on 4 player maps and don't probe scout at all on 2 player maps. You aren't going to change your build anyway and I always send my first zealot to the terran base (unless it's a really long distance in which case the FE is safe anyways). The thing is, you aren't going to scout anything relevant with that probe anyway as their build is 95% the same untill their first marine pops out. You want to scout if they went with a fast marauder (indicating tech lab thus highly likely to indicate MMM play and excluding early banshee play) or if they went with marines / bunker. Against fast marauder you want to back off immedialtely with your zealot (which you can as shells finish just after your zealot leaves their base at the earliest). Against just marines you want to poke a bit with zealot/stalker and try to see what's up a bit more, usually fast factory in which case you want to get a fast robo.
An important thing is to build as little as possible at your natural. The more open it is the easier it is to fight for you (you want to position your army near your probes usually and let the nexus take the first shots) and most importantly against SCV all-ins you can pull back to your main and let the expo die. If they pull 20 scv's to kill your expo and you just forcefield them out your main waiting for colossi you will win.
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On October 20 2010 18:07 Coulthard wrote:
Popularized by Day9? Oh come on
He DID do a daily focusing entirely on Toss FE vs Terran, and a LOT of people watch him. He didn't invent it, but popularized? Sure.
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Thank you LiquiPedia editors & contributors!
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In my opinion, this build is flexible, but the way you described it was a little weird. Being a 1800 Diamond player (not 2200, sorry), I've realized that after the patch, the safest way to secure your expo now on maps with semi-long rush distances (Not steppes/Blistering), is to just get 1 gate standard, and do your expansion at around 18. Throw a pylon/Cybo up immediately after and you should be good. The thing about early expanding is you need units asap to hold off a 2 rax pressure. So after you actuallyget the nexus, don't be afraid to throw down up to 4 more gates immediately to ensure you have the unit support to hold it. I prefer to do 4 gate and add in the robo. You can play in the dark for about 7 minutes and really have everything you needed for defense, just make sure you have a robo up by around the 8 minute mark for cloaked banshees and you should be good.
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On October 20 2010 21:51 sylverfyre wrote:He DID do a daily focusing entirely on Toss FE vs Terran, and a LOT of people watch him. He didn't invent it, but popularized? Sure.
I was wondering when this build would show up in the front page it seemed too solid/good...
Toss is the new terran?
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well i do the attack with 2maines 2 marauders v p almost alwyas (sometimes when its not viable i go 2 rax expand)
so i would win everygame against this strat
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I'm hoping we'll start to see some more economically focused games now instead of 1base vs 1base for 15 mins.
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this build has been around since early beta, its my secondary standard build i like to use on some maps with big defender advantages. Seems to me though it's still very hard to defend against early pressure terran builds. I only use it when i don't have to cut any probes (cross positions on meta ect)
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WOWOWOWOWO I didn't even know about this build, it has turned into my new standard opening for almost all PvT. LOVE IT!!
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Ive been doing it since the start of sc2 even got to 63rd in the top 200 ladder due to having a week of facing pure terrans. I find honestly on close position maps its almost not needed to 1 gate FE doing a 2 or even 3 gate FE before warpgates is done gives you a more comfortable defense against any sort of 3 rax or even 2 rax timing pushes. The delay from a 1 gate FE vs a 2 or 3 gate is less than a minute. The general expansion timing generally should always stay the same at 31-34 supply
However doing a FE on longer distances is definitely the best choice.
On the liquipedia I really really disagree with some of the the advice like what is considered a bad transition; *
Bad Transitions:
* Collosi - With only Stalkers being able to shoot Banshees and Ravens, you will be incredibly disadvantaged.
for example. I really disagree with being at an incredible disadvantage, generally terrans have a really high unupgraded rine count which collosi can capitalize on, so its not necessarily a bad transition, I've seen a lot of good toss players swipe out all the rines in a few seconds then the terran is left with pure air units unsupported. So its important to keep an eye out on how heavy the terran is on marines, often times terrans throw a reactor upgrade and pump marines nonstop. Its also great when scvs come to repair as they fall fast.
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On October 21 2010 01:50 slained wrote:Ive been doing it since the start of sc2 even got to 63rd in the top 200 ladder due to having a week of facing pure terrans. I find honestly on close position maps its almost not needed to 1 gate FE doing a 2 or even 3 gate FE before warpgates is done gives you a more comfortable defense against any sort of 3 rax or even 2 rax timing pushes. The delay from a 1 gate FE vs a 2 or 3 gate is less than a minute. The general expansion timing generally should always stay the same at 31-34 supply However doing a FE on longer distances is definitely the best choice. On the liquipedia I really really disagree with some of the the advice like what is considered a bad transition; * Show nested quote +
Bad Transitions:
* Collosi - With only Stalkers being able to shoot Banshees and Ravens, you will be incredibly disadvantaged.
for example. I really disagree with being at an incredible disadvantage, generally terrans have a really high unupgraded rine count which collosi can capitalize on, so its not necessarily a bad transition, I've seen a lot of good toss players swipe out all the rines in a few seconds then the terran is left with pure air units unsupported. So its important to keep an eye out on how heavy the terran is on marines, often times terrans throw a reactor upgrade and pump marines nonstop. Its also great when scvs come to repair as they fall fast.
I also disagree with the whole " * Collosi - With only Stalkers being able to shoot Banshees and Ravens, you will be incredibly disadvantaged. " thing.
IF you FEd and he went 2port banshees, you will have more stalkers than his banshees can defeat and the colossus can melt his puny bio army, so in reality there is a timing window where you can automatically beat 2port banshee of you go colossus.
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IF ITS SO GOOD, JUST WHY IS NO SINGLE PROGAMER BE IT FOREIGNER OR KOREAN EVER USING IT EFFECTIVELY?!?!?!??! (really dont know)
User was temp banned for this post.
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This strat does not work on LT. Ever. If the Terran player knows what he's doing. Tank + 3 marines + 1 scv on your cliff and it's gg. In general I think 1 gate to FE is still too risky. If the terran brings off some SCVs for the all-in I honestly don't see how you can win.
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On October 21 2010 04:27 ensis wrote:
IF ITS SO GOOD, JUST WHY IS NO SINGLE PROGAMER BE IT FOREIGNER OR KOREAN EVER USING IT EFFECTIVELY?!?!?!??! (really dont know)
Huk used this at MLG and got 3rd, sSKS uses similar builds, Day9 likes this build and did a daily on it.
On October 21 2010 04:27 JoeSchmoe wrote:
This strat does not work on LT. Ever. If the Terran player knows what he's doing. Tank + 3 marines + 1 scv on your cliff and it's gg. In general I think 1 gate to FE is still too risky. If the terran brings off some SCVs for the all-in I honestly don't see how you can win.
thats why you take the map into consideration when you use a build on it. If you suspect a cliff drop then you can make a warp prism before your first observer to deal with it. Scout alot and if you see a cheese coming THEN SWITCH TO A MORE DEFENSIVE BUILD!!!!! Its not risky at all because you can scout a cheese before the nexus goes down and make gateways and some sentries instead of the nexus.
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On October 21 2010 04:27 JoeSchmoe wrote:
This strat does not work on LT. Ever. If the Terran player knows what he's doing. Tank + 3 marines + 1 scv on your cliff and it's gg. In general I think 1 gate to FE is still too risky. If the terran brings off some SCVs for the all-in I honestly don't see how you can win.
Just make an observer man....
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Question, what advantages does this provide over a Forge FE?
With cannons, your expo is more easily defended, and later allows you to grab +1 weapons easier. Is is that against terrans cannons aren't as powerful as regular unit production is?
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its funny how i created this build about 2 months ago and everyone was like "no reps, not real, meanwhile i had no graphics card. they also said here's a rep and it failed. <3 guess i was right huh, hope whoever thought me wrong can swallow their words. only difference was that i did it with a 2 gate. this way i think works better tho.
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no need to get cannons, if your opponent is going more marine heavy (scout with the zeal / stalk) then expect banshee later.. change to 2g robo + third gate, timing push comes when your immortal comes out, you should have 2 zeals, 4 stalkers, 2-3 sentry and 1 immortal. (target the bunkers before the scv get there)
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On October 20 2010 06:43 Vz0 wrote:
This build doesn't work on most maps. I can see htis working in jungle basin or lost temple with a small choke. Maps like xel caverns = insta gg if terran knows what hes doing.
3rax can kill2gate robo (with no ff choke).
now imagine 3rax vs 2gaterobo + nexus
Classic mindnumbing theorycrafter. X build won't work because Y build counters it and everybody knows it blah blah blah
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I have been using my own modified version to great success. I have not lost to a terran using this method.
Basically as soon as the gateway is done I put down a nexus, nice and early. then it's constant zealot and probe production while I slowly tech up to chargelots and add more gates.
At around the time my twilight council is built (and most terran timed attacks) my supecharged economy starts kicking in. The zealots I have are mince meat to any early terran attacks but i can replace them easily enough that the aggressors leave my economy alone.
And when my chrono boosted charge is done, the tables instantly turn as all terran mm become eviscerated by my 8 gate 2 base zealots that I keep pumping out. And then it becomes GG.
Admittedly this build does have a few weaknesses, but against terran mm balls, it is unstoppable
Special thanks to my practice partner spiegel for educating me on the original build.
I now love zealots again. :D
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does anyone know how this build fares against 3rax MMM with stim?
say on steppes of war, is it possible? and normal maps like LT cross positions
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On October 21 2010 11:26 aLt)nirvana wrote:
does anyone know how this build fares against 3rax MMM with stim?
say on steppes of war, is it possible? and normal maps like LT cross positions
The only build that consistently gives me trouble is marine all ins, this beats pretty much any other timing push.
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From my experience (~1800 area) it is bad in close positions or small maps, while on bigger maps like delta and shakuras it is pretty decent. Also maps like jungle basin you can easily hold ur ramp and fe (sometimes even sooner then what the build lists)
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I'm pretty sure the VoD from sSks provided in the article is not a 1 gate expand. Its a 3 gate expand cutting zealots and going stalker sentry sentry stalker. Close, but not the same.
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On October 21 2010 11:26 aLt)nirvana wrote:
does anyone know how this build fares against 3rax MMM with stim?
say on steppes of war, is it possible? and normal maps like LT cross positions
My practice partner and I first tested the build on steppes of war, using a timed 3 rax stimmed marine push.
The 1 gate FE into 8 warpgate build worked flawlessly.
harass me a bit more if you want a replay, I think I still have them.
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On October 21 2010 11:26 aLt)nirvana wrote:
does anyone know how this build fares against 3rax MMM with stim?
say on steppes of war, is it possible? and normal maps like LT cross positions
i dont actually think it would be too bad on steppes, since the natural choke can be cut off by a mere 2 FF's. I don't practice this build often though so i wouldn't know.
Close positions on LT would be truly difficult
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1 base terran timing push will kill this build.
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On October 21 2010 07:55 Zvendetta wrote:
Question, what advantages does this provide over a Forge FE?
The answer is very simple really.
Units.
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When will people start to understand that a build isn't bad just because there's another build that will beat it? There is NO build that will work in all situations. That's why you scout so you have an idea what your opponent is doing and whether a build is appropriate or whether you should go with something else. Obviously if you see the terran is going early pressure, you're not gonna want to fast expand.
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On October 21 2010 22:55 purecarnagge wrote:
1 base terran timing push will kill this build.
Let's see your replays.
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This may be a dumb question, or in the wrong spot, but is this viable against zerg? I'm looking for an fe opener vs zerg to try out as 4gating and 2gate 15hatch roflstomping has gotten boring
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some replays would be insane
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I hardly see it work to the earliest mm agression if he goes 3 rax late exp or 3 rax ghost. So far I figured out that the safest of the safest builds are: fast charge into storm along with exp, then colossus if he goes any mm. This will also work against any earliest ghost push since you rely on cheap zealots. If he goes anything else than mm you want stargate and phoenix into observer and exp. That phoenix will deal with any marine banshee raven push or marines 1 helion 1 tank 1 raven 1 banshee push or pure marine/tank push.
Just recently Im trying to discover a good build against mm that relies on charge + 2/3 sentries + 2 stalkers + Archon. I could make the archon on 50 supply but got supplyblocked (noobme) so i did 2 archon push on 66.
PvT is easy. most of terrans dont use emp well. this is op shit it has like 125% of the range that feedback has. so stupid.
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i am not a very good player (top platinum league and not moving up or down) and i've used this build for an almost 60% winrate vs. terran. in general, barracks pressure hits hard as the nexus comes in- my 2 stalkers, 1 sentry and as many zealots as i can (maybe 3) along with about ten probes can barely hold it off, but they do and i win with a bigger economy once templar can storm.
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I have a replay, 1400 Diamond player.. I expod just after 30 food and won the game by accelerating past my opponent in the income. He also attempted to in base PF me to which I didn't notice until it was about 60% complete
EDIT: This was Steppes of War, I wanted to see if you could make the FE build viable on short rush distance maps. Perhaps if he didn't PF me he would have won the initial push, but I could just use my probes anyways ^^
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On October 20 2010 07:01 MorroW wrote:i was doing it to great success when i tested out some toss games :p won some top player terrans xd Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 06:43 Vz0 wrote:
This build doesn't work on most maps. I can see htis working in jungle basin or lost temple with a small choke. Maps like xel caverns = insta gg if terran knows what hes doing.
3rax can kill2gate robo (with no ff choke).
now imagine 3rax vs 2gaterobo + nexus not true :p
Yup the build is f-ing great. Just need to be able to adapt it vs early pressure.
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It's really easy to botch this if you get your robo up too quickly against a very aggressive terran. If you scout the front and see mauraders you should opt for an extremely warpgate heavy play after your expo is up and delay your robo until you actually need it. You need units NOW to defend it and the immortal will come to late and an observer will only see what you already know is coming.
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Can someone please explain this to me??? Im still a fan of this build but this game just pissed me off.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/94681-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
I did almost everything right.. I had almost 20 more supply before we fought..I had an observer for banshees....all he did was Stim and 1a to victory... really shows how little effort a terran needs to make to win a game.. so pathetic.
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On October 23 2010 19:28 Cloudstrife1337 wrote:Can someone please explain this to me??? Im still a fan of this build but this game just pissed me off. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/94681-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolisI did almost everything right.. I had almost 20 more supply before we fought..I had an observer for banshees....all he did was Stim and 1a to victory... really shows how little effort a terran needs to make to win a game.. so pathetic.
You had way too many zealots, once MMM hits a huge mass zealots are worthless without charge and they do almost no damage. If you had more stalkers and immortals in that battle you would of done more damage and your entire army would not have been kited to death.
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On October 23 2010 19:28 Cloudstrife1337 wrote:Can someone please explain this to me??? Im still a fan of this build but this game just pissed me off. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/94681-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolisI did almost everything right.. I had almost 20 more supply before we fought..I had an observer for banshees....all he did was Stim and 1a to victory... really shows how little effort a terran needs to make to win a game.. so pathetic.
IMO the first engagement would have been absolutely fine with better force fields. You want to use them to make it hard for him to get a concave. Stopping kiting is a good idea too, but you just used all of your energy to make a pretty wall behind his army which already had a perfect concave. Force him into an awkward position, save some energy for 1-2 guardian shields, and you'd be fine I bet. I think your composition was fine, you need zealots to tank with so many marauders.
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On October 23 2010 19:28 Cloudstrife1337 wrote:Can someone please explain this to me??? Im still a fan of this build but this game just pissed me off. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/94681-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolisI did almost everything right.. I had almost 20 more supply before we fought..I had an observer for banshees....all he did was Stim and 1a to victory... really shows how little effort a terran needs to make to win a game.. so pathetic.
your gateways were not building half of the time. I assume that was because you did not have the money to build out of all of them, because from the replay you seemed to be able to keep your money down pretty well. next time try building 2-4 gateways and constantly producing out of them rather than just throwing down a whole ton of them because 6 gateways seems totally wicked and would crush any early pressure from those stupid 1AT terrans
as for "being 20 food ahead:" yes you indeed were 20 food ahead. you however had 51 probes to his 26 scvs. that is 25 food. not counting your observer as part of your army (since it was useless in the engagement), you were actually 6 food behind his army, and in the engagement your focefields did nothing to help that matter. next time try to split his army up and mess with his positioning. you made a very cool wall that prevented him from escaping from the army that he didnt have to escape from anyways and he could still kite your zealots
my advice: practice for better macro. also build less gateways
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NEXGenius must have read the wiki in his games vs Loner during blizzcon 1gate xpo to 4warpgate stopping 2rax tech/reactor stim timing for all you haters out there
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On October 24 2010 09:28 zTz wrote:NEXGenius must have read the wiki in his games vs Loner during blizzcon 1gate xpo to 4warpgate stopping 2rax tech/reactor stim timing for all you haters out there
On the other hand, Huk did it against MakaPrime and got steamrolled by a 3rax stim push. The replay is here: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2365 . Huk had the timing perfect to check for Marauders at the front door, but MakaPrime did a ridiculously awesome fake by building a bunker as if he was teching/expanding causing Huk to throw down a Robo earlier instead of another gateway. The bunker was salvaged as soon as it completed. When the push hit, HuK was sadly without sentries.
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the ones that the pros do are usually a 26nexus with 1 stalker. I'm not sure why, because I think a 30-31 nexus is more efficient and safer. the 26 nexus cuts probes which, for an fe strat, is pretty counter-intuitive. When they do the 26 nex they end up with ~55 food at 8:00 and I usually get about 60 food at that point. maybe there is a little timing when they have more units.
I think the 26 nexus just allows their added gate ways to go up right when the research finishes but with the 31 nexus your warpgate tech finishes before your 3rd and perhaps 4th finish. That's all I can think of
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United States17042 Posts
the KCDC build was used to great effect in 3 games out of 4 against loner at blizzcon. very very cool. Super super fragile though, as loner was able to beat nexgenius in the first BO3 which tossed nexgenius in the losers bracket.
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On October 25 2010 11:02 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
the KCDC build was used to great effect in 3 games out of 4 against loner at blizzcon. very very cool. Super super fragile though, as loner was able to beat nexgenius in the first BO3 which tossed nexgenius in the losers bracket.
To be fair, 1 Gate FE in closest possible positions on Lost Temple against an outstanding Terran was a phenomenally stupid idea.
I mean, it's my favourite build by far, but getting the promised economic advantage necessitates actually surviving into the mid-game. I've successfully held closest possible positions 1 Gate FE, but I doubt I'd try it against Loner.
On the opposite side of the spectrum, the championship match was beautiful. I feel bad for Loner, and I think it would have been really cool for a non-Korean to take it, but damn me if Genius wasn't excreting liquefied awesome.
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On October 25 2010 11:44 Aylear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 11:02 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
the KCDC build was used to great effect in 3 games out of 4 against loner at blizzcon. very very cool. Super super fragile though, as loner was able to beat nexgenius in the first BO3 which tossed nexgenius in the losers bracket. To be fair, 1 Gate FE in closest possible positions on Lost Temple against an outstanding Terran was a phenomenally stupid idea. I mean, it's my favourite build by far, but getting the promised economic advantage necessitates actually surviving into the mid-game. I've successfully held closest possible positions 1 Gate FE, but I doubt I'd try it against Loner. On the opposite side of the spectrum, the championship match was beautiful. I feel bad for Loner, and I think it would have been really cool for a non-Korean to take it, but damn me if Genius wasn't excreting liquefied awesome.
Nexgenius hosed the build pretty badly in that game though. He got a second gas ridiculously early, (i seem to remember him hitting 300 gas early), didn't get a zealot before his stalker (ended up having 0 zealots when the push hit), made 4 gateways instead of getting more units out of 2 or 3, stopped probe production unnecessarily for a while... despite all of these mistakes he almost held it off.
Loner could have also had an expo with all of the pressure he was putting on since he had like 3 marauders queued at some point.
Edit: I probably shouldn't be using the word "mistakes", he might have been trying to go sentry heavy since the narrow natural choke on lost temple. It obviously didn't work though, and it seemed like just having like 1 more zealot and stalker would have had a much better chance of holding. That second gas cost him the 75 minerals and mineral mining time from 3 probes. Combined with the 4th gate that was barely used, I think he would have been safer with more mineral units.
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Nah the early second gas was mind games with Loner, making him think he was teching. He took the probes off after taking out the SCV. Loner caught on though so it was a waste.
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You're right about pulling the probes, I missed that the first time. But he did put those 3 probes back on gas after about a minute... just before the push hit, he had ~400 gas and no zealots. Oops.
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Kinda how i alrdy play, but i 1 robo then nexus :O its very good. but i'll try this, it sounds easier to hold off. idk ima give it a try. thx for the tips !
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Bisutopia19213 Posts
4gate is still the strongest imo
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That build is not good, simply becouse if you dont pressure the terran early, you are playing in the dark (robo is FAR 2 late). You could just die to a 2 rax tank+raven, to 3 rax, to helions, to thor + repair, to fast banshes, to .. FAST EXPO from terran... that build is OK for everything, but only if you are the better player.
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konadora
Singapore66153 Posts
interesting, didn't know you can FE safely in sc2. shall try it out soon :3
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On October 20 2010 06:43 Vz0 wrote:
This build doesn't work on most maps. I can see htis working in jungle basin or lost temple with a small choke. Maps like xel caverns = insta gg if terran knows what hes doing.
3rax can kill2gate robo (with no ff choke).
now imagine 3rax vs 2gaterobo + nexus
I completely agree with this guy.
I have done this build countless times on ladder, and it has worked wonders. I had steppes vetoed so I havnt played it on that. Recently I did custom, and they picked steps against a scrub terran. i did the exact same build, he pushes 3 rax at 8 mins, roflstomps my army. My economy was just about to kick in then. I reviewed the replay, and had a few micro problems but it still wasnt going to save me.
Basically I will refuse to do this build on steppes. I'd rather go 3 gate expo, or 4 gate early pressure then expo.
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Terrible build and will only work unscouted, cross positions on long maps, or against someone who has no idea how to pressure. 2 gate fake zealot/stalker pressure into expand works a lot better... especially since players who see 2 fast gates expect some sort of suicide rush. Cutting that first zealot and a probe and dropping another gate does wonders even if it takes slightly longer to get the expo after the extra stalker.
I mean... if you have 200 apm, can multitask with godly micro then by all means, continue this... I can't
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Basically I will refuse to do this build on steppes. I'd rather go 3 gate expo, or 4 gate early pressure then expo.
4 gate is pretty much all in... but survivable if you do significant damage. The 4th gate only helps your short term unit production for a short short bit while cutting probes... basically to about 50-60 supply, then if you continue utilizing all 4 gates you get stuck unable to tech or expo. You can pressure with 3 gates almost equally effectively... the difference that fourth gets you is enough to punish weak defenses of greedy builds
On October 27 2010 11:29 BisuDagger wrote:
4gate is still the strongest imo
only while the weak defense expo or tech rush remains popular.
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On October 24 2010 13:16 Indog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 09:28 zTz wrote:NEXGenius must have read the wiki in his games vs Loner during blizzcon 1gate xpo to 4warpgate stopping 2rax tech/reactor stim timing for all you haters out there On the other hand, Huk did it against MakaPrime and got steamrolled by a 3rax stim push. The replay is here: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2365 . Huk had the timing perfect to check for Marauders at the front door, but MakaPrime did a ridiculously awesome fake by building a bunker as if he was teching/expanding causing Huk to throw down a Robo earlier instead of another gateway. The bunker was salvaged as soon as it completed. When the push hit, HuK was sadly without sentries.
fake outs are in a class all their own
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Pylone 9 (3 times chronoboost your nexus which means you start to save it once your core started)
gate 13 => probe scout
gaz 15
2nd pylone 16
core + 1 zealot
3rd pylone 22
3 stalkers (full gate chronoboosted)
30/34 cut probes production
Nexus b2
sentry
2 gates+ 1 robo + 2nd gaz + 2 pylones
warpgate => 1 sentry + full zealots
7min => timing m&m stim push.
You got now few zeals/stalks and 2 sentries with 3 FF to defend your expand (you can still use your 6 probes from b2 to help if you need).
always put stalkers (dps/hit and run) behind zealots (meatshield) and use chronoboost on warpgates once you see him coming =)
After this, you should be ok to restart producing probes and making more gates+colossus to counter the T easily.
It works pretty well even on step of war
Just need some practice vs friends =)
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Aesop/Liquipedia/1GateFE.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Aesop/Liquipedia/1GateFE_BO2.png)
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