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On August 14 2010 02:56 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 02:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 14 2010 02:17 Murderotica wrote:
But honestly, does anyone else not see the fault in the fact that people who wouldn't ever pass courage tournament are moving to Korea to play SC2? Not saying that they are not good SC2 players, but the fact that SC2 has such a low skill ceiling that players who would get stomped out by any current registered progamer feel that they are strong enough in this game to invest money into playing SC2 in Korea? WTF. Since when have the fans of progaming been okay with this kind of competitive scene? I guess SC2 is to blame but WTF. W T F. I can't express it any better than this. First of all, SC2 is a brand new game. 2nd, Nazgul has been to Korea to play SC1, and he made it onto TV. 3rd, I may not be able to take games in SC1 off korean pros today, but I have done it before I quit playing SC1 in late 2006. Not like I never played SC1 before you know... http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/index.php?player1=dream.t)plto&team1_race=&map=&description=&uploader=&player2=&team2_race=&search=1 Of course not. I am well aware of the abilities of the TL staff (especially the founders). This is why TL is such a great site. I tried to make it obvious that I am not hating on you for your lack of abilities. But there is a reason why you guys aren't playing in the OSL right now, and why you are going to Korea for SC2 and not SC1. I didn't mean to come off as disrespectful to you, Nazgul, and other players that used to be in Korea playing the game that I love. I have a lot of respect for you. Also Nony, Rekrul, Leg, Idra, Rek, and every other player that has. But I find it hard to support this move to SC2. That's my main problem. Your 3rd point is the one that is most exemplary of my stance - SC is very different now than it was in 2006, or 2001, or SC2. I said in an earlier post in this thread, GL to all of you. I really do wish you the best. But more than anything I wish for SC to live on forever and to not lose any steam. SC2 is a direct enemy of this.
I'm just trying to understand your reasoning here: The skill required for success in SC2 is much lower than in SC, and so there is "fault" in "this move to SC2," because fans of progaming should not be okay with such an uncompetitive game and atmosphere. Is that about it? If so, whose move is it you are faulting: Is it that TL (the team) is doing something wrong? Or TL (the website)? Or TL (the community)? Or somebody else? Clearly somebody is doing something wrong, since somebody is at fault.
I'm pretty sure I disagree with you, but I'm not sure; for now I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it is you're objecting to.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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On August 14 2010 02:35 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 02:28 Lyw9475 wrote:On August 14 2010 02:17 Murderotica wrote:
But honestly, does anyone else not see the fault in the fact that people who wouldn't ever pass courage tournament are moving to Korea to play SC2? Not saying that they are not good SC2 players, but the fact that SC2 has such a low skill ceiling that players who would get stomped out by any current registered progamer feel that they are strong enough in this game to invest money into playing SC2 in Korea? WTF. Since when have the fans of progaming been okay with this kind of competitive scene? I guess SC2 is to blame but WTF. W T F. I can't express it any better than this. SC1 and SC2 are totally different game. if you don't pass courage in SC1 absolutely doen't mean than you won't pass the top 32 in GSL. That's my point exactly. Less skill in progames = less skills necessary to win = less enjoyment from watching.
But isn't it to early to tell if you will indeed need less skill? Perhaps it's just different skills. Everybody starts at zero again so it's not as if the Koreans are better as the foreigners at this point.
If what you said would hold true then the Koreans would start dominating the SC2 leagues in not to much time (if you have better skills imo you'll always have a slight edge even if the game doesn't let you use the full potential of said skills). And if that is true the foreigners that can't keep up with the pace will be home again soon enough.
But even in SC1 it's not that the Koreans are genetically better in playing the game it's just that they do it a lot more and have been immersed with it in these past years. In a new game where everybody starts at zero everybody that jumps in at the beginning has a good chance to be the best. It's only a matter of how dedicated you are to reach that goal.
And with the start of the team house Liquid` provides all opportunities to currently maximize the output of the players.
Even if all current SC1 players would make the switch in a month or so to SC2 they would be behind in tactics, game knowledge etc. so it's not as if they would automatically shoot to the top of SC2. They would have to work hard at it just as the rest of the world.
Last but not least: although Korea is currently the Mecca for professional SC1 who is to say that with all the money and attention that gets put into tournaments worldwide it will remain Korea? Perhaps America will get a much fiercer competition with more opportunities and big tournaments. Perhaps in SC2 America will become the Mecca.
All in all I think it's a bit early to decide what the parameters for professional SC2 will be. We will just have to wait and see.
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Wow, amazing news.
I rarely post here but this is really a reason to wish you all the best!!!
GL&HF
Show them what TL can do!
And eat some korean BBQ for me :-D
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Im really happy for you, you deserve it,
GLHF guys, TL hwaiting!
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This is awesome.
One big step for TL !
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awesome news, good luck to TL
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Great news. Gl in Korea guys!
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Austin10833 Posts
On August 14 2010 02:35 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 02:28 Lyw9475 wrote:On August 14 2010 02:17 Murderotica wrote:
But honestly, does anyone else not see the fault in the fact that people who wouldn't ever pass courage tournament are moving to Korea to play SC2? Not saying that they are not good SC2 players, but the fact that SC2 has such a low skill ceiling that players who would get stomped out by any current registered progamer feel that they are strong enough in this game to invest money into playing SC2 in Korea? WTF. Since when have the fans of progaming been okay with this kind of competitive scene? I guess SC2 is to blame but WTF. W T F. I can't express it any better than this. SC1 and SC2 are totally different game. if you don't pass courage in SC1 absolutely doen't mean than you won't pass the top 32 in GSL. That's my point exactly. Less skill in progames = less skills necessary to win = less enjoyment from watching.
None of what you're saying seems to have a strong underlying logical foundation. You're leaping around making arbitrary claims based on God knows what and drawing conclusions from your own flawed analysis.
I'd talk more about this, but you've apparently peaced out of this thread. I just don't want people taking this horrible line of thinking as a reasonable interpretation of what's going on with the blooming SC2 competitive scene.
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On August 13 2010 23:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 23:34 nihoh wrote:
"However, I will try to learn Korean."
Glad to see TLO taking a hands on approach to learning Korean. Hope he gets further than the other ppl who go to Korea and do nothing or give up half way. That sounds unfair to the people that went, many of them accomplished quite a lot. Giyom won an OSL, a King of Kings event and played in numerous other starleagues and teamleagues etc. Elky finished 4th in an OSL, with numerous OSL/MSL appearances. Legionnaire all-killed Pantech (I think pantech are the guys that went on to become wemadefox tho my memory is a bit hazy) among many other things, as the first protoss player to all-kill ever. Set the record for reaver kills on TV in his game against TheRock (56 I think?). Assem took out Yellow in proleague. Nazgul took out Xellos in proleague, Jinnam on AboutStarcraft. Made it into Challenge league on Ongamenet. IdrA has been there for quite a long time now, I would definitely not consider what he's doing as giving up halfway - I'd say he's doing quite well for himself really (see his win in King of the beta for instance). NonY finished second in his first ever courage tournament. I think going home to get married is a valid excuse ;]
I think he meant it in terms of learning the language =p
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Bombastic news!
It's a risky move though, going to Korea before knowing whether the SC2 scene will really take off there.
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awesome awesome awesome!!!
This site (and team) only make us proud!!
hope you all kick ass there!!! :D
Good luck!!!! :D
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OMG, this is fucking sick! Best of luck to Liquid! Hopefully this means we see more of oGs, and more foreign-korean relations in the future!
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On August 14 2010 03:03 Contagious wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 02:44 Murderotica wrote:On August 14 2010 02:39 CTStalker wrote:On August 14 2010 02:35 Murderotica wrote:On August 14 2010 02:28 Lyw9475 wrote:On August 14 2010 02:17 Murderotica wrote:
But honestly, does anyone else not see the fault in the fact that people who wouldn't ever pass courage tournament are moving to Korea to play SC2? Not saying that they are not good SC2 players, but the fact that SC2 has such a low skill ceiling that players who would get stomped out by any current registered progamer feel that they are strong enough in this game to invest money into playing SC2 in Korea? WTF. Since when have the fans of progaming been okay with this kind of competitive scene? I guess SC2 is to blame but WTF. W T F. I can't express it any better than this. SC1 and SC2 are totally different game. if you don't pass courage in SC1 absolutely doen't mean than you won't pass the top 32 in GSL. That's my point exactly. Less skill in progames = less skills necessary to win = less enjoyment from watching. Then why are you even posting here? If you don't like SC2, don't watch it. You don't need to continually post in SC2 topics about how you think it's a worse game. edit: oops, didn't see your last post. in any event, stop doing this please. Because SC2 is what is dominating the headlines now in terms of current TL (team, admin, and poster) time investment. Therefore it is the direction we are heading it. What I am saying is we are jumping head first into this. On the one hand it is not my place to judge people for their dreams and aspirations, but on the other hand I am entitled to an opinion (I don't feel like I am inappropriate in my delivery). Like many opinions of a regressive minority in previous times, it is also true that the fight is futile and in the end people will do what they want to do. I said before that I'd not post in SC2 topics but every newspost that reveals more and more intention to devote resources and manpower to it... it feels like it drains my soul a little more. Sorry for bothering people. P.S. not watching it is not the problem, I already do that. It's seeing the community I've come to appreciate and enjoy changing to something I disagree with. still honestly not seeing why you are posting then. If you still disagree with the game and the scene, why are you still following? There are so many games that you can follow, why is team-liquid forcing you to like SC2. If you disagree with their move to Korea, it might be the best just to keep it to yourself instead of starting an unneeded shit storm on their glorious parade.
1. I am not starting a "shit-storm." Do you see me cursing people out or arguing blindly?
2. I don't see how my posting this is harming anyone.
3. TL is not "forcing" me to like SC2, not at all. I'm not following either. That's the problem - TL is moving on to something new and different, without showing me why I should like what is happening.
4. I don't disagree with their move to Korea. I disagree with SC2.
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Holy shit guys, this is incredible news. I'm so proud to be a part of this website, I always hoped something like this would happen and it did. I hope more foreigners follow suit in months/years to come, would be incredible to have a good foreign presence in in the professional scene.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On August 14 2010 03:04 Pyrthas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 02:56 Murderotica wrote:On August 14 2010 02:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 14 2010 02:17 Murderotica wrote:
But honestly, does anyone else not see the fault in the fact that people who wouldn't ever pass courage tournament are moving to Korea to play SC2? Not saying that they are not good SC2 players, but the fact that SC2 has such a low skill ceiling that players who would get stomped out by any current registered progamer feel that they are strong enough in this game to invest money into playing SC2 in Korea? WTF. Since when have the fans of progaming been okay with this kind of competitive scene? I guess SC2 is to blame but WTF. W T F. I can't express it any better than this. First of all, SC2 is a brand new game. 2nd, Nazgul has been to Korea to play SC1, and he made it onto TV. 3rd, I may not be able to take games in SC1 off korean pros today, but I have done it before I quit playing SC1 in late 2006. Not like I never played SC1 before you know... http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/index.php?player1=dream.t)plto&team1_race=&map=&description=&uploader=&player2=&team2_race=&search=1 Of course not. I am well aware of the abilities of the TL staff (especially the founders). This is why TL is such a great site. I tried to make it obvious that I am not hating on you for your lack of abilities. But there is a reason why you guys aren't playing in the OSL right now, and why you are going to Korea for SC2 and not SC1. I didn't mean to come off as disrespectful to you, Nazgul, and other players that used to be in Korea playing the game that I love. I have a lot of respect for you. Also Nony, Rekrul, Leg, Idra, Rek, and every other player that has. But I find it hard to support this move to SC2. That's my main problem. Your 3rd point is the one that is most exemplary of my stance - SC is very different now than it was in 2006, or 2001, or SC2. I said in an earlier post in this thread, GL to all of you. I really do wish you the best. But more than anything I wish for SC to live on forever and to not lose any steam. SC2 is a direct enemy of this. I'm just trying to understand your reasoning here: The skill required for success in SC2 is much lower than in SC, and so there is "fault" in "this move to SC2," because fans of progaming should not be okay with such an uncompetitive game and atmosphere. Is that about it? If so, whose move is it you are faulting: Is it that TL (the team) is doing something wrong? Or TL (the website)? Or TL (the community)? Or somebody else? Clearly somebody is doing something wrong, since somebody is at fault. I'm pretty sure I disagree with you, but I'm not sure; for now I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it is you're objecting to.
You're pretty much correct in the first few lines. Who I claim to be at fault is the game itself moreso than anything, but also the TL staff for supporting it. Players being sent to Korea is just a manifestation of that fault and I have nothing against them personally. My biggest grudge is against SC2 and the followers that have accepted it as a prosport without there being ample skill requirements for it to be considered as such.
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I never believed that this would actually happen. This is great news guys. Good luck over there. I'm sure you'll excel!
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This is epic, not going to lie.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On August 14 2010 03:12 BroOd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 02:35 Murderotica wrote:On August 14 2010 02:28 Lyw9475 wrote:On August 14 2010 02:17 Murderotica wrote:
But honestly, does anyone else not see the fault in the fact that people who wouldn't ever pass courage tournament are moving to Korea to play SC2? Not saying that they are not good SC2 players, but the fact that SC2 has such a low skill ceiling that players who would get stomped out by any current registered progamer feel that they are strong enough in this game to invest money into playing SC2 in Korea? WTF. Since when have the fans of progaming been okay with this kind of competitive scene? I guess SC2 is to blame but WTF. W T F. I can't express it any better than this. SC1 and SC2 are totally different game. if you don't pass courage in SC1 absolutely doen't mean than you won't pass the top 32 in GSL. That's my point exactly. Less skill in progames = less skills necessary to win = less enjoyment from watching. None of what you're saying seems to have a strong underlying logical foundation. You're leaping around making arbitrary claims based on God knows what and drawing conclusions from your own flawed analysis. I'd talk more about this, but you've apparently peaced out of this thread. I just don't want people taking this horrible line of thinking as a reasonable interpretation of what's going on with the blooming SC2 competitive scene.
Alright. I guess I have had too much to drink. I don't mean to be one of those assholes that says they are leaving and then not leaving, even though I guess it's too late for that. I will not make another post in this thread, ban me if I do please thank you.
Enjoy SC2 everyone!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/motbob/tyler.png)
