It's like saying that if Wellington and Blucher declared that they lost battle of Waterloo, then history books should say that they lost becuase "it's up to them".
Facts are sAviOr and Luxury won these 5 tournaments.
Of course I can't argue against consensus - I just don't see how can organization say "oh we don't want him as our champion because he is criminal so let just remove him from the records" and I don't see why we should follow. If KeSPA declared that - I don't know - YellOw inherited all these titles (yea, complete absurd), should we kick him from the Kong line and send golden badge? o_O
I'm not quite clear what you want to achieve here. Point is, none of the editors has enough insight to completely make sense of what KeSPA did, nor are they against you. It's apparently not the problem to interprete what KeSPA did, rather than what the Liquipedia page displays.
Savior and Luxury won - so much is true and so much is recorded. All their games, the tournaments and so on and so forth are still recorded on Liquipedia, the links are there and are not hidden. No scores have been reversed, no VODs have been deleted, nothing changed there.
The point is, KeSPA said that they don't acknowledge savior/Luxury as pro-gamers anymore, they don't list him as legitimate trophy holder anymore. If someone was now to change this, this would be changing history, as it is a fact, that the KeSPA denies him being archived. The strike-through is a compromise between showing he won a tournament and being punished (for the lack of a better word) by KeSPA. If the KeSPA wall would still show him, then the strike through would make no sense. Still listing him as KeSPA pro would be the same - it would be just wrong and not factually correct.
I have huge problems to express myself in a foreign language about this, because it comes down to definitions and terms, but the way it is recorded now really is the best way.
Anyhow. Personally, I'd be fine if you'd include a longer explanation on the Wiki, linking to this post and others. This might give context on a more complicated issue. It's not like that savior's page doesn't need a work over for sources and style either way.
It's like saying that if Wellington and Blucher declared that they lost battle of Waterloo, then history books should say that they lost becuase "it's up to them".
Facts are sAviOr and Luxury won these 5 tournaments.
Of course I can't argue against consensus - I just don't see how can organization say "oh we don't want him as our champion because he is criminal so let just remove him from the records" and I don't see why we should follow. If KeSPA declared that - I don't know - YellOw inherited all these titles (yea, complete absurd), should we kick him from the Kong line and send golden badge? o_O
I'm not quite clear what you want to achieve here. Point is, none of the editors has enough insight to completely make sense of what KeSPA did, nor are they against you. It's apparently not the problem to interprete what KeSPA did, rather than what the Liquipedia page displays.
Savior and Luxury won - so much is true and so much is recorded. All their games, the tournaments and so on and so forth are still recorded on Liquipedia, the links are there and are not hidden. No scores have been reversed, no VODs have been deleted, nothing changed there.
The point is, KeSPA said that they don't acknowledge savior/Luxury as pro-gamers anymore, they don't list him as legitimate trophy holder anymore. If someone was now to change this, this would be changing history, as it is a fact, that the KeSPA denies him being archived. The strike-through is a compromise between showing he won a tournament and being punished (for the lack of a better word) by KeSPA. If the KeSPA wall would still show him, then the strike through would make no sense. Still listing him as KeSPA pro would be the same - it would be just wrong and not factually correct.
I have huge problems to express myself in a foreign language about this, because it comes down to definitions and terms, but the way it is recorded now really is the best way.
Anyhow. Personally, I'd be fine if you'd include a longer explanation on the Wiki, linking to this post and others. This might give context on a more complicated issue. It's not like that savior's page doesn't need a work over for sources and style either way.
As an English speaker, I can confirm that your post makes perfect sense. If anyone has a problem understanding your post, it is their fault and not yours.
My point is that their achievements shouldn't be striked anywhere on liquipedia and in their achievements section, this results should be presented normally.
There should be - of course - clear notification saying that they were kicked out of progaming for life because of their crimes and that KeSPA purged them from the records etc. but that's it.
EDIT: @GeckoXP - I don't see any problem with your post, thanks for joining the discussion!
Well, if you can up with something better suited, do it on your sandbox and discuss it here. Iirc Salle suggested a spoiler with a thick warning instead of the ordinary achievement box.
It's like saying that if Wellington and Blucher declared that they lost battle of Waterloo, then history books should say that they lost becuase "it's up to them".
Facts are sAviOr and Luxury won these 5 tournaments.
Of course I can't argue against consensus - I just don't see how can organization say "oh we don't want him as our champion because he is criminal so let just remove him from the records" and I don't see why we should follow. If KeSPA declared that - I don't know - YellOw inherited all these titles (yea, complete absurd), should we kick him from the Kong line and send golden badge? o_O
Your attempt to grasp at straws here with the aim of rehabilitating savior is becoming uniquely farcical. I appreciate that you have your own ideas about what constitutes a championship, but they depart from reality. You can keep repeating these views here, but it won't answer the deficit of truth they constitute.
On December 10 2013 00:51 nimdil wrote: My point is that their achievements shouldn't be striked anywhere on liquipedia and in their achievements section, this results should be presented normally.
There should be - of course - clear notification saying that they were kicked out of progaming for life because of their crimes and that KeSPA purged them from the records etc. but that's it.
EDIT: @GeckoXP - I don't see any problem with your post, thanks for joining the discussion!
On December 09 2013 08:22 Falling wrote: I get the striking the names as far as Kespa is concerned, but I don't think it's saviour apologetics to present an alternative point of view. Carried to the extreme, it get's a little farcical of the He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named brand of Harry Potter epithets or the Thing That Never Happened.
It's an apologist attempt to separate two things which are inseparable: the results of a player and their revocation ex post facto. It is also different from your allusions because their name and results are still recorded, but with the indication of what they did.
@itsjustatank Please. I can't possibly try to rehablitate him, I'm just separating his crime from his achievements. I started watching Brood War way past his peak.
Also it's not only about sAviOr but as he is the most loved/hated of the group, he is best representative for the whole group.
His crime tainted his achievements, most of them, in such a way that treating them separately is impossible. Attempting to do so is a revionist whitewash that interprets history rather than records it. It has no place on a wiki of facts.
His crime has nothing to do with his achievements.
Attempting to change the records of history becuase of his crimes IS revisionist whitewash, that interprets his crimes as so hideous, his achievements should no longer be recorded.
On December 10 2013 02:55 Dangermousecatdog wrote: His crime has nothing to do with his achievements.
Attempting to change the records of history becuase of his crimes IS revisionist whitewash, that interprets his crimes as so hideous, his achievements should no longer be recorded.
It has no place on a wiki of FACTS.
The wiki didn't change anything, kespa did, i don't see what's the point of all of this ^^
I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
You could think of it like this: What if Kespa had randomly decided to cancel the 2006 OSL Season 3 before it even began. Furious, the players, casters, and broadcast team snuck into the studio in the middle of the night, set up the decorations, and played all their games; at the end of which Savior won, taking the prize money (which Kespa decided not to contest). Could you call him an OSL champion? Sure, he won a set of games that would under normal circumstances make him a champion, but without the authority of the governing body, such a streak of games is meaningless.
Savior was at one point an OSL champion, but he no longer is. Kespa decided that he is no longer qualified to be a champion based on that streak of games. You may, on much firmer ground, argue that what Kespa did was unfair. You cannot, however, argue that they did not do it. And Liquipedia chronicles what is and what is not, not what is fair and what is not fair (otherwise EVER2004 OSL would list iloveoov vs Yellow in the finals..... )
On December 10 2013 03:25 Hesmyrr wrote: I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
Striked achievements generally indicate that the winner somehow cheated/doped/wtv in order to get them. This is not the case here.
On December 10 2013 03:25 Hesmyrr wrote: I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
Striked achievements generally indicate that the winner somehow cheated/doped/wtv in order to get them. This is not the case here.
No it certainly isn't. It indicates that the results have been vacated.
On December 10 2013 03:25 Hesmyrr wrote: I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
Striked achievements generally indicate that the winner somehow cheated/doped/wtv in order to get them. This is not the case here.
No it certainly isn't. It indicates that the results have been vacated.
Can you give example of when the title was vacated not because of doping scandal or s.t. similar?
I think it should be more clear on the page that he was stripped of his titles by KesPA, and that this isn't editorializing by Liquipedia.
@nimdil: Liquipedia is presenting data. The strikethroughs are, I presume, to show that savior won those tournaments and was later stripped of his titles by KesPA. I think this information could be presented more clearly, but it's not biased information, it's a visual representation of the facts.
On December 10 2013 03:25 Hesmyrr wrote: I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
Striked achievements generally indicate that the winner somehow cheated/doped/wtv in order to get them. This is not the case here.
Striked achievements do not necessarily indicate that the winner was cheating, it just means they are nulled. Yes, if they have the explanation like in your savior page, it would clarify, but having them without a strikethrough gives it a legitimacy in my opinion. It's up to the governing body to do whatever they wish with the titles that they give out, so I think the Liquipedia page accurately reflects what KeSPA has done in response to the match fixing.
EPT
User:Nimdil/sAviOr
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