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nimdil
Poland3772 Posts
When someone is stripped of olympic medal, the second in line is awarded gold retroactively. In this case none of that happened so I have to conclude that he is still considered victors, however all the (possibly beneficial) exposure is removed/prevented etc.? | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19379 Posts
On December 08 2013 01:23 vesicular wrote: The OGN studios have a wall with the name and photo of all the champions for each OSL. Savior's photo was removed and replaced with a generic Starleague logo on the 2006 Season 3 plaque. That's the best example I can think of to show stripping of titles. That said, it still says a Zerg won. You can see it here: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TH9ip.jpg) That does it! I'm going there and taping a picture of Bisu on that wall and taking a picture. | ||
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nimdil
Poland3772 Posts
On December 09 2013 02:10 Zera wrote: Well he didnt win because of cheating, only his name is erased from Korean pro bw history Yea, but that's no reason enough to present his titles like that: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eTBFyt7.png) | ||
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vesicular
United States1310 Posts
On December 09 2013 02:22 BisuDagger wrote: That does it! I'm going there and taping a picture of Bisu on that wall and taking a picture. Poor Bisu. That said, if the title was taken away from Savior and given to the 2nd place player, that means Nada has 4 OSL trophies... | ||
Epoxide
Magic Woods9326 Posts
On December 09 2013 02:29 nimdil wrote: Yea, but that's no reason enough to present his titles like that: I'm not sure what you are complaining about. The results are still there, it's just the achievement of being called a champion by OGN that's gone, and thus strike-through. | ||
itsjustatank
Hong Kong9179 Posts
On December 09 2013 02:03 nimdil wrote: OK so here it goes. When Lance Armstrong was stripped of titles, it was announced that Tour de France he won were without victors. When someone is stripped of olympic medal, the second in line is awarded gold retroactively. In this case none of that happened so I have to conclude that he is still considered victors, however all the (possibly beneficial) exposure is removed/prevented etc.? this is a terrible conclusion based on poor assumptions via examples from sports that are not Brood War. and to Epoxide's point, even your example of Lance Armstrong has results on Wikipedia listed in a matter consistent with the way it is on Liquipedia, with a strikethrough. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong#Palmares | ||
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nimdil
Poland3772 Posts
I don't see why Liquipedia should follow. Liquipedia provides information and sAviOr (and Luxury) still is four time champion. I don't see why we need to strike it through - that's messy at best; suggests that somehow he's results are undone or whatever. @itsjustatank It's not consistent. Lance Armstrong was found guilty of doping and so all his results are undone. Match fixing scandal didn't indicate any fault of him getting the results so this seem to be very different situation - therefore they shouldn't be presented similarly. Actually - now seeing that they are striked in wikipeida - it's even stronger argument to not do so on LP. There was no indication sAviOr cheated to win his titles (unlike LA). | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12047 Posts
No matter what happened he's the man who single handedly showed people how to dominate with zerg in Broodwar and pretty much him alone defined the beginnings of all the standard current builds used today. Also using Lance Armstrong is a bad example as Lance used drugs at a time when pretty much everyone else in the top 10 used drugs as well. You can take all the titles away and whatever but he wasn't really at an unfair advantage when second to 10th were all doped up as well. | ||
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itsjustatank
Hong Kong9179 Posts
On March 04 2013 08:53 GeckoVOD wrote: I had the same problem understanding why his wins were not recorded anymore (because he didn't throw his wins... most likely). The thing is, they really are not there anymore, that's KeSPA policy. His records were officially erased so to speak. To still list them would be changing history. It makes sense, regardless on your opinion of savior, because it shows his status in the KeSPA ranking. Only KeSPA gets to decide, not the editors. It's also explained on his player page as well as on other pages about the match fixing incident. I hope that explains it. Titles come from and are legitimized by a font of authority. They can be revoked, and having had one in the past doesn't make it perpetual. Someone stripped of a knighthood in the United Kingdom can no longer be called a knight legitimately. The same is true of the matchfixers. No matter how many times you apologists desperately try to rewrite history, it has already been written. Until and unless KeSPA changes their decision on this matter, those wins, while wins, did not result in titles. | ||
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nimdil
Poland3772 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:09 itsjustatank wrote: There are no results. Let me put it to you very simply, using another person's words. That's just undoing history. There are no facts saying that he didn't win those titles. LP does not answer to KeSPA. They dumped him from their records, because keeping him there is bad for the business - that however doesn't change facts. Question remains: is LP about facts or about business. My take is that LP should list them as holders of the titles and explain that the records were purged from KeSPA records or wtv - not the other way around. | ||
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itsjustatank
Hong Kong9179 Posts
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rift
1819 Posts
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itsjustatank
Hong Kong9179 Posts
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nimdil
Poland3772 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:21 itsjustatank wrote: You are simply not listening here. At one point, the matchfixer won a game. This is what the 1st or 2nd records. At one time it conferred a title. That is what the description to the right in the table says. The strikethrough indicates that the title has been vacated. There is no holder of that title, according to the font of authority that confers said titles: KeSPA. No one can change this fact except KeSPA. Not you, not I. The wiki records things as they are, not as how you want it to be. I believe we reached impass as we both understand all the facts but have completely different opinion on how to interpret them. You think it's ultimately up to KeSPA to cancel titles. I think that once they've won titles, you have to prove that they cheated during their run to change it. | ||
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Epoxide
Magic Woods9326 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:38 nimdil wrote: I think Yes but it's not up to you. It's up to KeSPA. | ||
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Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
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Falling
Canada11594 Posts
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nimdil
Poland3772 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:39 Epoxide wrote: Yes but it's not up to you. It's up to KeSPA. It's like saying that if Wellington and Blucher declared that they lost battle of Waterloo, then history books should say that they lost becuase "it's up to them". Facts are sAviOr and Luxury won these 5 tournaments. Of course I can't argue against consensus - I just don't see how can organization say "oh we don't want him as our champion because he is criminal so let just remove him from the records" and I don't see why we should follow. If KeSPA declared that - I don't know - YellOw inherited all these titles (yea, complete absurd), should we kick him from the Kong line and send golden badge? o_O | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On June 07 2010 21:04 404.Delirium wrote: Pretty disappointing... Hwasin, Up... I've come to terms with Savior cheating but that many big-names. Bleh. Curious there's no protoss though. Not making any statements just with 11 you'd think there'd be at least one >_> A bit late to answer, but Protoss is presented as a race with honour in campaign. That explains it!  | ||
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