Kespa permanently bans all players who were involved with the Match Fixing Scandal.
Players who were involved with match rigging and/or participated in bets themselves will all be banned from the progaming scene permanently.
Also, players who were involved with the Match Fixing will have all their prize and reward (aka Player of the Year Reward, Proleague Player Reward, Weekly/Monthly MVP Reward) all removed.
We also have 11 Players, not 9 who participated in Match Fixing/Illegal Betting
Does it really matter ? I mean, most of them are going to do something else with their life or turn to Starcraft II. Starcraft Brood War won't last for another 10 years. The only shame is that they lose their awards. As far as I've understood it, this Kespa corporation won't have anything to do with Starcraft II, if so, it's all for the best.
Hopefully we can put this whole thing behind us now. That was a serious blow to the integrity of eSports, and I'd like it if we could just push it under the rug and just be able to say "Ma Jae who? I don't know who that is."
I support this. Must set a tough example to prevent match-fixing from ever happening again. I won't miss any of these players (maybe except for Savior, but he's way beyond slumping now compared to his prime).
Well Protoss has just been confirmed as the MANLIEST race in Starraft. Nobody would dare ask a protoss player to throw a match in fear of getting their face rammed through a dozen monitors.
Isn't it weird that Efforts slump coincided directly with the match fixing situation. He was on one of the most impressive streaks up till late last year, now immediately after this situation hes back to that form. I'm sure if he was involved it would have come out already but its just a bit unusual, especially the fast turnaround in his skill.
Hopefully this is all over now Nal ra was pissed when he heard about this, After Talk spoke about him briefly saying they had never heard him curse so much in their lives.
No real surprise there. I don't think many people expected them to be back, especially since they will darken the 'honor' of their teams in the eyes of the fans.
Biggest shame is Hwasin in my opinion, though I'll also miss luxury and t-bizzle :/
Hopefully they actually learned from this, and will succeed elsewhere in life.
On June 07 2010 21:06 Shizuru~ wrote: out of the 11 players caught, 5 is from Sparkyz lol...
6 if you count Luxury.
On June 07 2010 22:18 wo0py wrote: This is such an sad ending of BW progaming..
Enough with that, BW progaming is still living on, as seen by the number of people who showed up to the last MSL/OSL finals. Next leagues are already sponsored as well, so can we stop with the whole "omg bw is dead" statements??
On June 07 2010 20:44 Ecorin wrote: Does it really matter ? I mean, most of them are going to do something else with their life or turn to Starcraft II. Starcraft Brood War won't last for another 10 years. The only shame is that they lose their awards. As far as I've understood it, this Kespa corporation won't have anything to do with Starcraft II, if so, it's all for the best.
A lifetime ban means they will not be able to play SC2 professionally either. They will also find it difficult to do something else since they are for the most part, uneducated and now have the stigma of a high profile criminal case. KeSPA will undoubtedly be around for SC2 in one form or another, so yes, it matters. If I were them, I'd leave Korea and try to start a normal life elsewhere.
sigh hite... justin has destroyed his team at least they still have leta + horang, but their zerg line is nonexistent now EDIT ok jk they have hogil LOL
also I bet there are more out there who haven't been caught... hopefully this won't happen again though and they won't need to be exposed
On June 07 2010 22:42 TeMiL wrote: if kespa cant get a good position on sc2, these player could play sc2 profesionally?
You think any sponsored teams are going to want people like this ruining their image? It would definitely not be good advertising for a company like Samsung to sponsor someone like Savior now.
They're pretty much fucked right now, from televised "sports" to cleaning toilets.
On June 07 2010 20:44 Ecorin wrote: Does it really matter ? I mean, most of them are going to do something else with their life or turn to Starcraft II. Starcraft Brood War won't last for another 10 years. The only shame is that they lose their awards. As far as I've understood it, this Kespa corporation won't have anything to do with Starcraft II, if so, it's all for the best.
A lifetime ban means they will not be able to play SC2 professionally either. They will also find it difficult to do something else since they are for the most part, uneducated and now have the stigma of a high profile criminal case. KeSPA will undoubtedly be around for SC2 in one form or another, so yes, it matters. If I were them, I'd leave Korea and try to start a normal life elsewhere.
It doesn't help to move when you can't speak any language other than korean and North Korea is obviously not an option.
On June 07 2010 23:14 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: hey, is it possible to try to get some of them into TL attack or something?
Why would we want to?
You'd really pass up the opportunity to get a former progamer on tl attack?
apart from the whole LOL SPARKYZ, serves them right for being so bm, this just feels like a minor blip on the radar. Interesting for about 10 minutes, then easily forgettable.
Yeah it sucks, but all that remains are crys of fanboyism and anti fanboyism.
On June 07 2010 23:14 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: hey, is it possible to try to get some of them into TL attack or something?
Why would we want to?
You'd really pass up the opportunity to get a former progamer on tl attack?
apart from the whole LOL SPARKYZ, serves them right for being so bm, this just feels like a minor blip on the radar. Interesting for about 10 minutes, then easily forgettable.
Yeah it sucks, but all that remains are crys of fanboyism and anti fanboyism.
I wouldnt care much, since most of the good foreigners have switched to sc2 to make sum money and thus would get mauled.
So many good players leaving, and savior. My favorite of them all
Really sad to see them go, upmagic struck me as a pretty cool guy since most of the games i've seen him play was insane (His biomech vs nal_ra, deep six uses etc.). go.go wasn't one of my favorites but he seemed like a nice guy after watching the Nal_rA's oldboy series.
The Starcraft scene will never be the same without these guys (minus DarkElf, Shinwa, Justin and 1st. lololol scrubs ).
Whaaat by.1st ! He used to stream tons of his games on afreeca. Really good player, this is unfortunate. Though I do remember seeing some streamers betting each other playing games vs each other. T_T Team atmosphere in sparkyz must be horrendous.
I feel for those affected Teams. Hwasin certainly knows how to disappoint to the end... Still, it seems so weird that there are no Protoss at all. Gonna be a new SC internet meme? :o
After he beat boxer he went on to play on 2v2 then b team and then get penalized for match fixing - it was like his career was only made to send boxer out of that osl.
Though more seriously these are just a few players and they didn't fix matches EVERY single time. Combined they're not exactly the best of players either with more downs than ups.
On June 07 2010 20:39 aers wrote: Sad, but had to happen.
Also amusing that there were no Protoss involved in the end.
well i am p so i am rly happy but i feel sad like p often is the underdog in bets so it is not alot of money possible if p lose but more if t or z lose sad but true otherwise i cant imagine someone ask someone like reach of manipulate a game xD manntoss power !
but happy not single one of my idols are on the list
just feel bad about upmagic and hwasin
On June 07 2010 22:00 Rekrul wrote: I bet these guys are really rooting for blizzard in the battle vs. kespa now lol.
LOL!
This is one of the problems i see with blizzard ...
Blizzard would NEEEEEEEVER permban them perhaps just 1 week or just wanr them but no permban i like it like kespa did it !
On June 07 2010 21:56 Rekrul wrote: Do you guys believe me yet?
i ever believed you in your blogpost was to crazy to be untrue
On June 07 2010 21:42 infinity2k9 wrote: Isn't it weird that Efforts slump coincided directly with the match fixing situation. He was on one of the most impressive streaks up till late last year, now immediately after this situation hes back to that form. I'm sure if he was involved it would have come out already but its just a bit unusual, especially the fast turnaround in his skill.
Yeah I've been thinking this since it all happened and he miraculously got really good again.
Also, some people are saying, "Well it was only 11 players...." Yeah. Only 11 they could prove
On June 07 2010 20:44 Ecorin wrote: Does it really matter ? I mean, most of them are going to do something else with their life or turn to Starcraft II. Starcraft Brood War won't last for another 10 years. The only shame is that they lose their awards. As far as I've understood it, this Kespa corporation won't have anything to do with Starcraft II, if so, it's all for the best.
A lifetime ban means they will not be able to play SC2 professionally either. They will also find it difficult to do something else since they are for the most part, uneducated and now have the stigma of a high profile criminal case. KeSPA will undoubtedly be around for SC2 in one form or another, so yes, it matters. If I were them, I'd leave Korea and try to start a normal life elsewhere.
It doesn't help to move when you can't speak any language other than korean and North Korea is obviously not an option.
There are Korean communities all over the world where the majority of people don't speak the native language well or at all. I know plenty of Koreans here in NYC that don't speak any English whatsoever beyond "Hello" "Goodbye" and "Thank you." I don't think the language barrier is anywhere near as big of an issue as you would make it seem. Japan, Mexico, USA, Argentina, etc. Plenty of places where you can go with Korean communities.
Uh...it's that stuff that you use to buy things. Like clothes and food and expensive watches... You know.
Reach: Really? You have to 'buy' things? I just tell people to give me stuff... and then they do. I figured that's how it was for everyone. What does this "money" look like, anyway?
DarkElf: Well, it's made of paper, and--well, that's not really the point. It'll help you get women, too!
sAviOr: Who are you? You're getting commonness on my Timex...
Rock: I'm Rock! You know, the Protoss player from Wemade!
sAviOr: Oh. Didn't you...uh...make Carriers...that one time?
Rock: That's me! And I beat GoZip and Fresh in the MSL prelims! Anyway, I wanted to talk to you about some cash-making opportunities I heard you're in on.
Rock: Well, I'm playing a well-respected player soon, and everyone expects me to lose. So I was thinking, instead of losing all the time, why not get PAID to lose? I'll throw the game, and then we'll both collect lots of cash! Isn't that a great idea?
sAviOr: Um...okay. See, the way it would work is--
Jaedong: No, you don't get it. I hate losing more than death, Hitler, and Satan combined. Every time I lose, I'm filled with so much rage I have to spend the next week repeatedly four-pooling PerfectMan. I don't lose.
I've been following the match-fixing news as it has come in but haven't actually seen a specific match/footage of any rigged match. Have any games been officially labelled as 'rigged'?
Uh...it's that stuff that you use to buy things. Like clothes and food and expensive watches... You know.
Reach: Really? You have to 'buy' things? I just tell people to give me stuff... and then they do. I figured that's how it was for everyone. What does this "money" look like, anyway?
DarkElf: Well, it's made of paper, and--well, that's not really the point. It'll help you get women, too!
sAviOr: Who are you? You're getting commonness on my Timex...
Rock: I'm Rock! You know, the Protoss player from Wemade!
sAviOr: Oh. Didn't you...uh...make Carriers...that one time?
Rock: That's me! And I beat GoZip and Fresh in the MSL prelims! Anyway, I wanted to talk to you about some cash-making opportunities I heard you're in on.
Rock: Well, I'm playing a well-respected player soon, and everyone expects me to lose. So I was thinking, instead of losing all the time, why not get PAID to lose? I'll throw the game, and then we'll both collect lots of cash! Isn't that a great idea?
sAviOr: Um...okay. See, the way it would work is--
Jaedong: No, you don't get it. I hate losing more than death, Hitler, and Satan combined. Every time I lose, I'm filled with so much rage I have to spend the next week repeatedly four-pooling PerfectMan. I don't lose.
Uh...it's that stuff that you use to buy things. Like clothes and food and expensive watches... You know.
Reach: Really? You have to 'buy' things? I just tell people to give me stuff... and then they do. I figured that's how it was for everyone. What does this "money" look like, anyway?
DarkElf: Well, it's made of paper, and--well, that's not really the point. It'll help you get women, too!
sAviOr: Who are you? You're getting commonness on my Timex...
Rock: I'm Rock! You know, the Protoss player from Wemade!
sAviOr: Oh. Didn't you...uh...make Carriers...that one time?
Rock: That's me! And I beat GoZip and Fresh in the MSL prelims! Anyway, I wanted to talk to you about some cash-making opportunities I heard you're in on.
Rock: Well, I'm playing a well-respected player soon, and everyone expects me to lose. So I was thinking, instead of losing all the time, why not get PAID to lose? I'll throw the game, and then we'll both collect lots of cash! Isn't that a great idea?
sAviOr: Um...okay. See, the way it would work is--
Jaedong: No, you don't get it. I hate losing more than death, Hitler, and Satan combined. Every time I lose, I'm filled with so much rage I have to spend the next week repeatedly four-pooling PerfectMan. I don't lose.
On June 08 2010 02:01 ~ava wrote: I've been following the match-fixing news as it has come in but haven't actually seen a specific match/footage of any rigged match. Have any games been officially labelled as 'rigged'?
Luxury vs Hwasin for one, Luxury clearly throws the game. Also a few others were listed in another thread.
Uh...it's that stuff that you use to buy things. Like clothes and food and expensive watches... You know.
Reach: Really? You have to 'buy' things? I just tell people to give me stuff... and then they do. I figured that's how it was for everyone. What does this "money" look like, anyway?
DarkElf: Well, it's made of paper, and--well, that's not really the point. It'll help you get women, too!
sAviOr: Who are you? You're getting commonness on my Timex...
Rock: I'm Rock! You know, the Protoss player from Wemade!
sAviOr: Oh. Didn't you...uh...make Carriers...that one time?
Rock: That's me! And I beat GoZip and Fresh in the MSL prelims! Anyway, I wanted to talk to you about some cash-making opportunities I heard you're in on.
Rock: Well, I'm playing a well-respected player soon, and everyone expects me to lose. So I was thinking, instead of losing all the time, why not get PAID to lose? I'll throw the game, and then we'll both collect lots of cash! Isn't that a great idea?
sAviOr: Um...okay. See, the way it would work is--
Jaedong: No, you don't get it. I hate losing more than death, Hitler, and Satan combined. Every time I lose, I'm filled with so much rage I have to spend the next week repeatedly four-pooling PerfectMan. I don't lose.
So...if Blizzard's transition with GOM is successful and all of the networks/teams in Korea move away from KeSPA's stronghold on the e-sport...will the banned players be given a second chance? possibly in SC2?
On June 08 2010 02:26 chameleonism wrote: So...if Blizzard's transition with GOM is successful and all of the networks/teams in Korea move away from KeSPA's stronghold on the e-sport...will the banned players be given a second chance? possibly in SC2?
IMO they should get a second chance in Sudden Attack... as punishment.
They should all form a new SC2 esports team under savior and sponsored by blizzard (that'll teach kespa!). They have enough talent/noobs to bash to be a very good team! Plus, head start! They'd be the highest apm sc2 players. Saviour would actually be able to compete and kick ass!
Uh...it's that stuff that you use to buy things. Like clothes and food and expensive watches... You know.
Reach: Really? You have to 'buy' things? I just tell people to give me stuff... and then they do. I figured that's how it was for everyone. What does this "money" look like, anyway?
DarkElf: Well, it's made of paper, and--well, that's not really the point. It'll help you get women, too!
sAviOr: Who are you? You're getting commonness on my Timex...
Rock: I'm Rock! You know, the Protoss player from Wemade!
sAviOr: Oh. Didn't you...uh...make Carriers...that one time?
Rock: That's me! And I beat GoZip and Fresh in the MSL prelims! Anyway, I wanted to talk to you about some cash-making opportunities I heard you're in on.
Rock: Well, I'm playing a well-respected player soon, and everyone expects me to lose. So I was thinking, instead of losing all the time, why not get PAID to lose? I'll throw the game, and then we'll both collect lots of cash! Isn't that a great idea?
sAviOr: Um...okay. See, the way it would work is--
Jaedong: No, you don't get it. I hate losing more than death, Hitler, and Satan combined. Every time I lose, I'm filled with so much rage I have to spend the next week repeatedly four-pooling PerfectMan. I don't lose.
On June 08 2010 02:40 Inpu wrote: Could saviour have a rise in sc2, since there isnt a KeSPA
even if he did, who would trust him anyway? He's the one who almost fucked up the e-sports scene. Who would be supporting him? Moreover, sponsoring? He's a bad image to get attached to now. He's left to die alone in the shadows of shame with his rolex.
I don't get why people are speculating (or hoping) that these people will return in SC2. If whoever is going to be making the calls for SC2 doesn't ban these players from pro SC2 play then I think there's a problem, we'll never know if a game that sAviOr plays will be legitimate or a thrown game ever again. Whether it's Brood War or SC2. Therefore, if GOMTV allows these players to compete in SC2 leagues then it'll be clear to me that KeSPA > Blizzard.
Aww. Many of my favorite players are on that list. I really liked Hwasin, Savior, Upmagic and go.go. Not to mention the twins!! this makes me so sad, makes me wanto cry...
On June 07 2010 21:42 infinity2k9 wrote: Isn't it weird that Efforts slump coincided directly with the match fixing situation. He was on one of the most impressive streaks up till late last year, now immediately after this situation hes back to that form. I'm sure if he was involved it would have come out already but its just a bit unusual, especially the fast turnaround in his skill.
i used to think that zerg play was like that, but that was based largely on yarnac and lux!
still, i think zerg players are more prone to being streaky/losing confidence and slumping.. zero's always been a little like that, jaedong at times..
anyone remember when modesty had an amazing win streak and was billed as the next big thing (for a week)!
I fully support kespa's decision, lay down some law.
But on the other hand im sad to see Hwasin and Upmagic go.... Hwasin was the main reason i cheered for STX 3 years ago. Can't watch him own zergs anymore. As for Upmagic, he was such a fun player to watch, always innovative and unconventional.
Worst I personally feel, since I started watching after the savior era, is upmagic beeing out..... personal hero after the game vs flash, so sad to never see him play again...
Sorry for the youtube, but I feel like it should be rewatched at least once.
Has it been explained anywhere whether or not players playing in leagues still need to be kespa sanctioned? With kespa not in charge of the leagues anymore, this could be completely meaningless (besides the titles).
On June 08 2010 04:39 jimminy_kriket wrote: Has it been explained anywhere whether or not players playing in leagues still need to be kespa sanctioned? With kespa not in charge of the leagues anymore, this could be completely meaningless (besides the titles).
im guessing (no official thing or anything) that the leagues will probably ban them also
how can you take back their titles? what are you going to say when someone asks who won all those msls? are they going to pretend savior wasn't the bonjwa? this is a little weird
Thinking of MJY and HwaSin permanently out of progaming is so painful. They had such incredible games and I will miss them sorely, even though I never really rooted for savior.
first good thing kespa has done. I've been so tired of people recieving almost no penalty for cheating in sports and finally something has been done. kespa fighting?
Uh...it's that stuff that you use to buy things. Like clothes and food and expensive watches... You know.
Reach: Really? You have to 'buy' things? I just tell people to give me stuff... and then they do. I figured that's how it was for everyone. What does this "money" look like, anyway?
DarkElf: Well, it's made of paper, and--well, that's not really the point. It'll help you get women, too!
sAviOr: Who are you? You're getting commonness on my Timex...
Rock: I'm Rock! You know, the Protoss player from Wemade!
sAviOr: Oh. Didn't you...uh...make Carriers...that one time?
Rock: That's me! And I beat GoZip and Fresh in the MSL prelims! Anyway, I wanted to talk to you about some cash-making opportunities I heard you're in on.
Rock: Well, I'm playing a well-respected player soon, and everyone expects me to lose. So I was thinking, instead of losing all the time, why not get PAID to lose? I'll throw the game, and then we'll both collect lots of cash! Isn't that a great idea?
sAviOr: Um...okay. See, the way it would work is--
Jaedong: No, you don't get it. I hate losing more than death, Hitler, and Satan combined. Every time I lose, I'm filled with so much rage I have to spend the next week repeatedly four-pooling PerfectMan. I don't lose.
Uh...it's that stuff that you use to buy things. Like clothes and food and expensive watches... You know.
Reach: Really? You have to 'buy' things? I just tell people to give me stuff... and then they do. I figured that's how it was for everyone. What does this "money" look like, anyway?
DarkElf: Well, it's made of paper, and--well, that's not really the point. It'll help you get women, too!
sAviOr: Who are you? You're getting commonness on my Timex...
Rock: I'm Rock! You know, the Protoss player from Wemade!
sAviOr: Oh. Didn't you...uh...make Carriers...that one time?
Rock: That's me! And I beat GoZip and Fresh in the MSL prelims! Anyway, I wanted to talk to you about some cash-making opportunities I heard you're in on.
Rock: Well, I'm playing a well-respected player soon, and everyone expects me to lose. So I was thinking, instead of losing all the time, why not get PAID to lose? I'll throw the game, and then we'll both collect lots of cash! Isn't that a great idea?
sAviOr: Um...okay. See, the way it would work is--
Jaedong: No, you don't get it. I hate losing more than death, Hitler, and Satan combined. Every time I lose, I'm filled with so much rage I have to spend the next week repeatedly four-pooling PerfectMan. I don't lose.
just looking at the list makes you remember games by them and get a bad feeling in the pit of your stomach.
People who are questioning how bad this is because they will be able to move on to other things. They will never be accepted in any progaming or sport sponsorship, so they won't be able to try and get on with SC2, they're best bet is to do their military time if they havn't yet, and then get into finance.
Taking awards away is completely deserved, but claiming someone didn't win a league wouldn't be justified. While they did cheat, they didn't get victories by cheating, but the opposite. Savior, Luxury etc still won their individual leagues, and while taking titles is fine, claiming they won those titles undeservingly would be lie. It's the lack of integrity and responsibility that they earn the punishments for. But eventhough they may lose their face as human beings, as mouseclickers I can't diss them for what they were, great players.
All in all, ban for life is more than justified for anyone included, but ruining the memory of these players as good players isn't realistic since cheating wasn't to gain advantage in game, but via gambling. To lose the respect as skilled player, I'd have to hear a player being caught of "vent abuse" and such, that directly make you play better.
sAviOr was my Zerg hero and why I wanted to start playing Zerg. It's such a huge disappointment to me. I wish I knew what could have been if he hadn't made such poor decisions with his career.
Putting my favor for him aside, he deserves the ban. The striping of awards, however, is meaningless. We all know these players achieved and earned all their titles and awards. Nothing changes that, not even some mystical Kespa disappearing wand. Their accomplishments were earned just like their permanent bans were earned.
It's good to see this coming to a close, but it's really sad to see some of those names up there...
Let's hear it for fucking KESPA, though! I'm EXTREMELY IMPRESSED with how they handled this situation... And that's not something you can say about KESPA very often.
I totally support Kespa on this decision. Letting players who have been caught match fixing play is ridiculous. If they did play however, how badly do you think the crowd will react to them?
as much as it pains me to see some of these players get banned, its for the best. They deserve it if they get involved with messed up stuff like that. =\ KeSPA made a good decision to ban these guys
I feel a mix of pity, disappointment, sadness, and disgust. Very upset at savior and hwasin, they were two of my favorites. And goodbye to beaver terran (aka go.go). While the punishment may seem harsh, it is more than fitting.
How can you come up with the idea they would have their OSL, MSL, WCG titles just erased? That's history, and you can't just erased history and pretended it never happened.
Awards like Player Of The Year, etc, may be taken back, as it's just someone who thought they deserved it and gave to them, but Starleagues they won because they deseved it. It's there, and it will always be, there's no denying it.
Savior was the most amazing zerg I've seen playing the game and, by the these news, the most stupid.
What he did, the good and the bad, is done. He deserved everything. The titles and the perma ban.
Goodbye Wachanic builds, you were amazingly fun to watch, even if you almost never won. Goodbye Red Sniper, STX's uniform manufacturer needed you!!! Whatever SaviOr, I laughed when Bisu 3-0'd you.
edit: And yes! I just realized I can say YellOw without causing confusion now!
Permanent ban seems harsh for someone like Hwasin who apparently only fixed 1 match but I guess there's no other way. Match fixing is so easy to do in an RTS you really need to set an example if it starts happening.
Progamer licenses function for all games right? Once you gain it through Starcraft you're considered "progamer" for every game out there I heard? I'd be incredibly surprised if these guys have the option of being SC2 progamers when they're banned from playing SC1 at pro level. Then again with this Blizzard/KeSPA thing going on that entire system may not be around for SC2 and they may be in luck.
On June 08 2010 12:43 Feefee wrote: Progamer licenses function for all games right? Once you gain it through Starcraft you're considered "progamer" for every game out there I heard? I'd be incredibly surprised if these guys have the option of being SC2 progamers when they're banned from playing SC1 at pro level. Then again with this Blizzard/KeSPA thing going on that entire system may not be around for SC2 and they may be in luck.
But does GOM/Blizzard or who ever is running a SC2 league want people who have be proven guilty for match fixing? They may not be repeat offenders and have said they are sorry and won't do it again, but as much as i know, that doesnt help XD
For the taking away the titles, does that mean the person who was a runner up in an event to one of the cheaters i.e NaDa in ShinHan2006-3 OSL is now the champion?
On June 08 2010 13:08 Cadgers wrote: For the taking away the titles, does that mean the person who was a runner up in an event to one of the cheaters i.e NaDa in ShinHan2006-3 OSL is now the champion?
Hm.....I doubt it. That would be too much work for our KeSPA friends.
no protoss, eh? this was during the time when people chose their lineups, so most lineups probably had only 1 mandatory protoss who would lose anyways (perfectman, haksoo, etc) or stars who probably wouldnt lose (stork, kal, bisu).
Perfect. It hurts my heart to think some of these players who I've supported and lost many valuable hours of sleep to watch live are such bad guys. Luxury was my first favorite progamer. I always supported Yarnc and go.go; Along with Luxury they made OGN Sparkyz my favorite team. When I got into STX Soul it was partially because of that epic lineup with allstars in all races. Hwasin was the coolest Terran for me for so long and I always pulled for him in every starleague because I really felt he deserved a title. Upmagic played some of the most entertaining games of all time. He was a broodwar genius and his unorthodoxy and creativity made him a player who was easy to love and watch play. Nevertheless, in the face of all of these great memories made bittersweet now, there was only one option for dealing with this roster of matchfixers. There can be no doubt that the sport is real or it is no longer a sport. The only viable punishment from dogspa is the permanent ban.
I feel for all of the other fans who suffered disappointment and disillusionment as a result of the whole matchfixing incident.
As a final note: I hope that these guys aren't allowed to play in SC2 events in the new GOM world order or whatever ends up happening. It bothers me that everyone forgot so readily about the sins of Dimaga and F91 and other TSL cheaters as soon as they became SC2 stars.
Banning these players from all future events sounds fair enough to me. What they did was wrong and anything less would certainly hurt the integrity of the sport. On the other hand jail time would be way too harsh for this.
A few things to consider: these players are basically just kids. They would have gone from going to school and living at home straight to living in a progamer house with a bunch of other teenagers/early twenties, playing a computer game 10+ hours a day. It's not like they have a ton of life experience. Doesn't excuse what they did, but they made a mistake, they are not hardened criminals.
Furthermore, I imagine that it is rather common for any of the little money that most of these guys make to straight to their parents for safekeeping with maybe a little bit of spending money given to them from that. Meanwhile, the money they would get from the match fixing would have been cash under the table, so to speak, i.e. money that they could spend freely. Once again, this is no excuse but it is something to keep in mind before you judge them too harshly.
I'll be glad when this whole dirty business is behind us, and I sincerely hope that it will be a cautionary tale for future progamers, and that it will never happen again.
I think the real question is is Kespa going to be around for much longer for this to even matter? Personally, I believe all the players should be given a second chance, so if they really wanted to I imagine they could become SC2 players, unless of course the GOM league also bans them.
On June 08 2010 14:32 Thesecretaznman wrote: Maybe no we know why UpMagic always had that slightly crazed sleepless look haha
seriously though, I'm sad I won't ever get to see UpMagic play again D:
Me too... of course, UpMagic often seemed to lose games where he had a clear lead. I can't help but suspect that all those times I got pissed because he threw games away, that he literally was throwing the game away. =/
Holy shit...can't believe there were that many big names involved in this...and to imagine they're gonna lose all their titles and we'll never see them play again... O_O
On June 08 2010 15:01 Disastorm wrote: I think the real question is is Kespa going to be around for much longer for this to even matter? Personally, I believe all the players should be given a second chance, so if they really wanted to I imagine they could become SC2 players, unless of course the GOM league also bans them.
1) I doubt kespa will be going anywhere, don't be so quick to dismiss them and think that blizzard will have full control over everything.
2) No sponsor or team will touch these players, as it would tarnish the dignity of the team. This applies to SC2 just as it does for SC1. These players are done.
On June 08 2010 15:01 Disastorm wrote: I think the real question is is Kespa going to be around for much longer for this to even matter? Personally, I believe all the players should be given a second chance, so if they really wanted to I imagine they could become SC2 players, unless of course the GOM league also bans them.
1) I doubt kespa will be going anywhere, don't be so quick to dismiss them and think that blizzard will have full control over everything.
2) No sponsor or team will touch these players, as it would tarnish the dignity of the team. This applies to SC2 just as it does for SC1. These players are done.
Wrong >> example "dwain chambers"! english runner took steroids (thats probly even worse then throwing a game in my honest oppinion because hes doing something illigal to make himself better.. not worse...) And long as he runs fast people will always find a sponsor end of story, if he was a slow runner thats another topic, but indeed if these players "play" well enough in sc2 i have little doubt they will find a place to go where the pay is marginal.
On June 08 2010 07:16 catabowl wrote: Hopefully we can all move on from this. I wonder if the World Cyber Games will strip Luxury of his WCG bronze now and Hwasin of his WCG gold?
Hwasin doesn't have a WCG gold, but Luxury does. I'm guessing that you're thinking about the korean qualifiers which are the ones listed in TLPD.
I think the decision is correct. Too bad our european scene is too small and way to forgiving, we could have cleaned out a handful and badmannered kids to make it more professional. (regarding our previous wc3 and now our sc2 scene)
On June 08 2010 15:01 Disastorm wrote: I think the real question is is Kespa going to be around for much longer for this to even matter? Personally, I believe all the players should be given a second chance, so if they really wanted to I imagine they could become SC2 players, unless of course the GOM league also bans them.
1) I doubt kespa will be going anywhere, don't be so quick to dismiss them and think that blizzard will have full control over everything.
2) No sponsor or team will touch these players, as it would tarnish the dignity of the team. This applies to SC2 just as it does for SC1. These players are done.
Wrong >> example "dwain chambers"! english runner took steroids (thats probly even worse then throwing a game in my honest oppinion because hes doing something illigal to make himself better.. not worse...) And long as he runs fast people will always find a sponsor end of story, if he was a slow runner thats another topic, but indeed if these players "play" well enough in sc2 i have little doubt they will find a place to go where the pay is marginal.
Good luck finding a team that will take Savior after causing the biggest disgrace to esports in years. And no, I don't think that taking steroids is worse than throwing a game for money. The only way they will get anywhere with sc2 if they wanted to would be internet tournaments. I still don't think they'll even try. They have been shamed by this, and they will likely move on with their lives and pursue other things (like school, joining family businesses, etc).
I've mixed feelings about this. First of all I think KeSPa (fuck KeSPa on all other aspects but this) needed to put an example and be really hard with punishing those players. On the other hand, that punishment is fucking hard..
No more savior luxury etc in progaming-_______-;;;... HwaSin... Upmagic T_T.
Oh well, hopefully we can see them in Starcraft 2. Everyone deserves a 2nd chance.
Wow, it'll probably be almost impossible for these people to find any kind of jobs.
Starcraft is so popular in Korea that I doubt they could even get into a university without that university getting tons of shit from the media. Any progaming is certainly out of the question, and most companies probably wouldn't hire a progamer since they don't particularly have any transferable skills.
Wonder what these people can do now, it's pretty much like you'd have to leave the country. Hopefully no one does anything stupid and suicides or something. =\ But like I could see it happening, that is such a rough situation to be in.
I'm genuinely sad to know that some of my favorite players (sAviOr in particular) are being banned from ever playing again. And it's also slightly absurd that they're being stripped of their past achievements. I really don't get why they would go through the logistical trouble of doing this since being permanently banned should surely be enough of a deterrent and precedent. Although it does fit perfectly with the way these tournaments are being run these days.
Really though, putting the players aside for a minute, I'm dying to know who else was involved and exactly how this scheme came to be. We're all apparently perfectly content with blaming the progamers but I honestly cannot believe that it was all as simple as this would suggest. There's also the fact that these players are all very young, around their 20s, and might 1) not have fully comprehended the danger they were in when they made the deals, and 2) surely could not have set up a scheme like this by themselves or without support from other people around them, possibly figures like team managers.
I can't wait for these people to start talking about what really happened, who was promised what, whether they were being coaxed into agreeing, if there was just money or perhaps they were being threatened by an organized group, and so go on. Because, you know, I wasn't there. I don't know all the facts. Details matter, and there are probably some important ones that I'm missing.
I'd love to just condemn them for being utter idiots (which they probably were) but I won't do it until I have a bit more factual information about how this thing really worked.
Is progaming really out of the question? I know the matter is serious, but since SCII probably won't be organized by KeSPA, doesn't that make it at least a possibility for them?
(I'm not defending them, mind you. I'd rather not see any of these players on television ever again, I'd just like to know.)
It seems the Protoss is extremely honorable and plays for Auir rather than money. Unfortunately, I bet theres more players that will show up. I guess they could still play Starcraft II though because Kespa does not own the rights to it.
Although they might not get jobs in progaming... it seems likely that Kespa won't be involved in SC2 in the future so they won't really have the ability to enforce this.
I think as part of the punishment, 1 last tournement for no money is required. To make it more interesting, every1 has to put in 100$ opt in, 4th place gets 20$ back, 3rd gets 50$ back, 2nd gets 85$ back, and winner gets all money back
"Also, players who were involved with the Match Fixing will have all their prize and reward (aka Player of the Year Reward, Proleague Player Reward, Weekly/Monthly MVP Reward) all removed"
On June 07 2010 20:39 aers wrote: Sad, but had to happen.
Also amusing that there were no Protoss involved in the end.
Well, you dont have to bribe a protoss to lose
We clearly have a very skilled player here. Since you think toss suck so bad, why dont you try playing a good one. OH WAIT UR PROBABLY D-. Snow will come and hunt you down and eat you for breakfast you noob nomnomnom. FOR AIUR, CUS THOSE PPL GOT THE BALLS TO NOT CHEAT
this physically hurt me to read, gonna miss alotta these players even if they were match fixing. but then again fuck em, who needs them, no-ones gonna ruin broodwar.
On June 07 2010 20:39 aers wrote: Sad, but had to happen.
Also amusing that there were no Protoss involved in the end.
Well, you dont have to bribe a protoss to lose
We clearly have a very skilled player here. Since you think toss suck so bad, why dont you try playing a good one. OH WAIT UR PROBABLY D-. Snow will come and hunt you down and eat you for breakfast you noob nomnomnom. FOR AIUR, CUS THOSE PPL GOT THE BALLS TO NOT CHEAT
Lol it's not hacking. It's throwing a game for money 0.o And maybe Bisu WAS in this ring, we just don't know about it (dark templar cloak hax)
Paying off the Protoss is a waste of money, seeing as they would lose regardless...
On June 07 2010 21:53 Roffles wrote: So what exactly happens to Savior's titles? Do the runner ups still stay runner ups and there's just no winner?
I don't see why his titles would be in question. It's not like steroids in baseball where wins can be questioned - throwing games/betting only concerns games you lost.
On June 07 2010 21:53 Roffles wrote: So what exactly happens to Savior's titles? Do the runner ups still stay runner ups and there's just no winner?
I don't see why his titles would be in question. It's not like steroids in baseball where wins can be questioned - throwing games/betting only concerns games you lost.
Wins can actually be questioned. i.e. did the protoss actually win because of skill, or because the other guy threw the match?
On June 07 2010 23:14 majesty.k)seRapH wrote: wow, its kinda depressing that protoss suck enough not to be bribed, lol.
hey, is it possible to try to get some of them into TL attack or something?
This 'joke' pops up so often that I'm starting to wonder if people are serious about it.
It's obviously not because Protoss are too bad and nobody would bet on them. One look at the list and you see people like go.go, UpMagic and type.b - players who have always moved up and down the 'mediocre' to 'kinda good' range. Who the fuck would bet on type.b in a match against an in-form Bisu, Stork, Kal, free, etc.? And even if Protoss really were too bad to win, nothing would have stopped a toss player from being a middle man between the players and the betting sites/gangsters a la Savior.
I think in the end it's nothing but pure coincidence that no Protoss player was caught, personally.
So if they're banned from progamming doesn't that mean they're also banned from SC2? Or do they have different licenses or something entirely different?
lol it took a life bann to prevent hwasin from getting into the ro16^^. anyway it is sad to see since hwasin, gogo, upmagic and savior were part of my top ten favorite players
blizzard should try to get some of these players to play sc2 professionally...what else can they do? can you imagine some of these guys at a job interview:
-what are your qualifications?
-well i've played starcraft for 12 hours a day for the last 5 years....
All they need to do is get a fake ID, lay low for a few months, and come back hard in SC2 tournaments with a different name. Maybe gain or lose some weight to help with the disguise. Koreans all look alike for the most part, so who's going to know, unless Savior renames himself Savior2 or something dumb like that?
On June 19 2010 07:34 omg.deus wrote: blizzard should try to get some of these players to play sc2 professionally...what else can they do? can you imagine some of these guys at a job interview:
-what are your qualifications?
-well i've played starcraft for 12 hours a day for the last 5 years....
But to play SC2 professionally, they have to play for kespa, more or less. Unless Blizzard wants to start a team composed entirely of disgraced former Korean players...
On June 19 2010 07:34 omg.deus wrote: blizzard should try to get some of these players to play sc2 professionally...what else can they do? can you imagine some of these guys at a job interview:
-what are your qualifications?
-well i've played starcraft for 12 hours a day for the last 5 years....
On June 19 2010 08:12 McStupid wrote: All they need to do is get a fake ID, lay low for a few months, and come back hard in SC2 tournaments with a different name. Maybe gain or lose some weight to help with the disguise. Koreans all look alike for the most part, so who's going to know, unless Savior renames himself Savior2 or something dumb like that?
On June 19 2010 08:12 McStupid wrote: All they need to do is get a fake ID, lay low for a few months, and come back hard in SC2 tournaments with a different name. Maybe gain or lose some weight to help with the disguise. Koreans all look alike for the most part, so who's going to know, unless Savior renames himself Savior2 or something dumb like that?
Im pretty sure that Savior didn't throw games, but when he heard about this list he asked to be put on. He could explain why he didn't destroy everyone as he promised,
On June 28 2010 14:17 zomgtossrush wrote: Im pretty sure that Savior didn't throw games, but when he heard about this list he asked to be put on. He could explain why he didn't destroy everyone as he promised,
OK so I looked around and I don't see in any thread about match fixing scandal that players were stripped of their titles - most importatntly sAviOr's 4 titles and Luxury's 1 titles (but also Yellow(arnc)'s silver medal etc).
Generally ban from competition doesn't indicate stripping of achievements so they are not in the same situation as i.e. Lance Armstrong. However Liquipedia maintains that they were stripped of medals. I would like to source this conclusion - does anyone know where to look for reference?
So I'm looking for something more detailed than this short text information. There's no mention here (or elsewhere) of individual league championships. Reward is not the same as title. At worst they are supposed to give $$ they won back, but that doesn't undo them being champions.
They didn't give any money back, what it really means is their records are erased. This has no effect on random players like Darkelf who were going to be forgotten anyway. And it also has no effect on MJY or the twins/Hwasin a little bit because people sill remember them. It is essentially a symbolic act with no real consequences except to replace MJY's picture with a question mark on the wall of OSL champions.
The OGN studios have a wall with the name and photo of all the champions for each OSL. Savior's photo was removed and replaced with a generic Starleague logo on the 2006 Season 3 plaque. That's the best example I can think of to show stripping of titles. That said, it still says a Zerg won.
OK so here it goes. When Lance Armstrong was stripped of titles, it was announced that Tour de France he won were without victors. When someone is stripped of olympic medal, the second in line is awarded gold retroactively.
In this case none of that happened so I have to conclude that he is still considered victors, however all the (possibly beneficial) exposure is removed/prevented etc.?
On December 08 2013 01:23 vesicular wrote: The OGN studios have a wall with the name and photo of all the champions for each OSL. Savior's photo was removed and replaced with a generic Starleague logo on the 2006 Season 3 plaque. That's the best example I can think of to show stripping of titles. That said, it still says a Zerg won.
You can see it here:
That does it! I'm going there and taping a picture of Bisu on that wall and taking a picture.
On December 08 2013 01:23 vesicular wrote: The OGN studios have a wall with the name and photo of all the champions for each OSL. Savior's photo was removed and replaced with a generic Starleague logo on the 2006 Season 3 plaque. That's the best example I can think of to show stripping of titles. That said, it still says a Zerg won.
You can see it here:
That does it! I'm going there and taping a picture of Bisu on that wall and taking a picture.
Poor Bisu. That said, if the title was taken away from Savior and given to the 2nd place player, that means Nada has 4 OSL trophies...
On December 09 2013 02:10 Zera wrote: Well he didnt win because of cheating, only his name is erased from Korean pro bw history
Yea, but that's no reason enough to present his titles like that:
I'm not sure what you are complaining about. The results are still there, it's just the achievement of being called a champion by OGN that's gone, and thus strike-through.
On December 09 2013 02:03 nimdil wrote: OK so here it goes. When Lance Armstrong was stripped of titles, it was announced that Tour de France he won were without victors. When someone is stripped of olympic medal, the second in line is awarded gold retroactively.
In this case none of that happened so I have to conclude that he is still considered victors, however all the (possibly beneficial) exposure is removed/prevented etc.?
this is a terrible conclusion based on poor assumptions via examples from sports that are not Brood War.
and to Epoxide's point, even your example of Lance Armstrong has results on Wikipedia listed in a matter consistent with the way it is on Liquipedia, with a strikethrough.
I don't see why Liquipedia should follow. Liquipedia provides information and sAviOr (and Luxury) still is four time champion. I don't see why we need to strike it through - that's messy at best; suggests that somehow he's results are undone or whatever.
@itsjustatank
It's not consistent. Lance Armstrong was found guilty of doping and so all his results are undone. Match fixing scandal didn't indicate any fault of him getting the results so this seem to be very different situation - therefore they shouldn't be presented similarly. Actually - now seeing that they are striked in wikipeida - it's even stronger argument to not do so on LP. There was no indication sAviOr cheated to win his titles (unlike LA).
The big thing is you can't take away the fact he won those titles because he did. The players he played against were not involved in the match fixing in the final so there's nothing technically invalidated about his victories.
No matter what happened he's the man who single handedly showed people how to dominate with zerg in Broodwar and pretty much him alone defined the beginnings of all the standard current builds used today.
Also using Lance Armstrong is a bad example as Lance used drugs at a time when pretty much everyone else in the top 10 used drugs as well. You can take all the titles away and whatever but he wasn't really at an unfair advantage when second to 10th were all doped up as well.
There are no results. Let me put it to you very simply, using another person's words.
On March 04 2013 08:53 GeckoVOD wrote: I had the same problem understanding why his wins were not recorded anymore (because he didn't throw his wins... most likely). The thing is, they really are not there anymore, that's KeSPA policy. His records were officially erased so to speak. To still list them would be changing history. It makes sense, regardless on your opinion of savior, because it shows his status in the KeSPA ranking. Only KeSPA gets to decide, not the editors. It's also explained on his player page as well as on other pages about the match fixing incident. I hope that explains it.
Titles come from and are legitimized by a font of authority. They can be revoked, and having had one in the past doesn't make it perpetual. Someone stripped of a knighthood in the United Kingdom can no longer be called a knight legitimately. The same is true of the matchfixers.
No matter how many times you apologists desperately try to rewrite history, it has already been written. Until and unless KeSPA changes their decision on this matter, those wins, while wins, did not result in titles.
On March 04 2013 08:53 GeckoVOD wrote: I had the same problem understanding why his wins were not recorded anymore (because he didn't throw his wins... most likely). The thing is, they really are not there anymore, that's KeSPA policy. His records were officially erased so to speak. To still list them would be changing history. It makes sense, regardless on your opinion of savior, because it shows his status in the KeSPA ranking. Only KeSPA gets to decide, not the editors. It's also explained on his player page as well as on other pages about the match fixing incident. I hope that explains it.
That's just undoing history. There are no facts saying that he didn't win those titles. LP does not answer to KeSPA. They dumped him from their records, because keeping him there is bad for the business - that however doesn't change facts.
Question remains: is LP about facts or about business.
My take is that LP should list them as holders of the titles and explain that the records were purged from KeSPA records or wtv - not the other way around.
You are simply not listening here. At one point, the matchfixer won a game. This is what the 1st or 2nd records. At one time it conferred a title. That is what the description to the right in the table says. The strikethrough indicates that the title has been vacated. There is no holder of that title, according to the font of authority that confers said titles: KeSPA. No one can change this fact except KeSPA. Not you, not I. The wiki records things as they are, not as how you want it to be.
On December 09 2013 07:21 itsjustatank wrote: You are simply not listening here. At one point, the matchfixer won a game. This is what the 1st or 2nd records. At one time it conferred a title. That is what the description to the right in the table says. The strikethrough indicates that the title has been vacated. There is no holder of that title, according to the font of authority that confers said titles: KeSPA. No one can change this fact except KeSPA. Not you, not I. The wiki records things as they are, not as how you want it to be.
I believe we reached impass as we both understand all the facts but have completely different opinion on how to interpret them.
You think it's ultimately up to KeSPA to cancel titles. I think that once they've won titles, you have to prove that they cheated during their run to change it.
It's a tournament held by KeSPA, so if KeSPA decide to revoke the title so be it. It's within their authority. You can say that Savior WON the matches and finals, but he does not won the TITLES. Why? Because KeSPA, the one governing it revoke the titles.
I get the striking the names as far as Kespa is concerned, but I don't think it's saviour apologetics to present an alternative point of view. Carried to the extreme, it get's a little farcical of the He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named brand of Harry Potter epithets or the Thing That Never Happened.
It's like saying that if Wellington and Blucher declared that they lost battle of Waterloo, then history books should say that they lost becuase "it's up to them".
Facts are sAviOr and Luxury won these 5 tournaments.
Of course I can't argue against consensus - I just don't see how can organization say "oh we don't want him as our champion because he is criminal so let just remove him from the records" and I don't see why we should follow. If KeSPA declared that - I don't know - YellOw inherited all these titles (yea, complete absurd), should we kick him from the Kong line and send golden badge? o_O
It's like saying that if Wellington and Blucher declared that they lost battle of Waterloo, then history books should say that they lost becuase "it's up to them".
Facts are sAviOr and Luxury won these 5 tournaments.
Of course I can't argue against consensus - I just don't see how can organization say "oh we don't want him as our champion because he is criminal so let just remove him from the records" and I don't see why we should follow. If KeSPA declared that - I don't know - YellOw inherited all these titles (yea, complete absurd), should we kick him from the Kong line and send golden badge? o_O
I'm not quite clear what you want to achieve here. Point is, none of the editors has enough insight to completely make sense of what KeSPA did, nor are they against you. It's apparently not the problem to interprete what KeSPA did, rather than what the Liquipedia page displays.
Savior and Luxury won - so much is true and so much is recorded. All their games, the tournaments and so on and so forth are still recorded on Liquipedia, the links are there and are not hidden. No scores have been reversed, no VODs have been deleted, nothing changed there.
The point is, KeSPA said that they don't acknowledge savior/Luxury as pro-gamers anymore, they don't list him as legitimate trophy holder anymore. If someone was now to change this, this would be changing history, as it is a fact, that the KeSPA denies him being archived. The strike-through is a compromise between showing he won a tournament and being punished (for the lack of a better word) by KeSPA. If the KeSPA wall would still show him, then the strike through would make no sense. Still listing him as KeSPA pro would be the same - it would be just wrong and not factually correct.
I have huge problems to express myself in a foreign language about this, because it comes down to definitions and terms, but the way it is recorded now really is the best way.
Anyhow. Personally, I'd be fine if you'd include a longer explanation on the Wiki, linking to this post and others. This might give context on a more complicated issue. It's not like that savior's page doesn't need a work over for sources and style either way.
It's like saying that if Wellington and Blucher declared that they lost battle of Waterloo, then history books should say that they lost becuase "it's up to them".
Facts are sAviOr and Luxury won these 5 tournaments.
Of course I can't argue against consensus - I just don't see how can organization say "oh we don't want him as our champion because he is criminal so let just remove him from the records" and I don't see why we should follow. If KeSPA declared that - I don't know - YellOw inherited all these titles (yea, complete absurd), should we kick him from the Kong line and send golden badge? o_O
I'm not quite clear what you want to achieve here. Point is, none of the editors has enough insight to completely make sense of what KeSPA did, nor are they against you. It's apparently not the problem to interprete what KeSPA did, rather than what the Liquipedia page displays.
Savior and Luxury won - so much is true and so much is recorded. All their games, the tournaments and so on and so forth are still recorded on Liquipedia, the links are there and are not hidden. No scores have been reversed, no VODs have been deleted, nothing changed there.
The point is, KeSPA said that they don't acknowledge savior/Luxury as pro-gamers anymore, they don't list him as legitimate trophy holder anymore. If someone was now to change this, this would be changing history, as it is a fact, that the KeSPA denies him being archived. The strike-through is a compromise between showing he won a tournament and being punished (for the lack of a better word) by KeSPA. If the KeSPA wall would still show him, then the strike through would make no sense. Still listing him as KeSPA pro would be the same - it would be just wrong and not factually correct.
I have huge problems to express myself in a foreign language about this, because it comes down to definitions and terms, but the way it is recorded now really is the best way.
Anyhow. Personally, I'd be fine if you'd include a longer explanation on the Wiki, linking to this post and others. This might give context on a more complicated issue. It's not like that savior's page doesn't need a work over for sources and style either way.
As an English speaker, I can confirm that your post makes perfect sense. If anyone has a problem understanding your post, it is their fault and not yours.
My point is that their achievements shouldn't be striked anywhere on liquipedia and in their achievements section, this results should be presented normally.
There should be - of course - clear notification saying that they were kicked out of progaming for life because of their crimes and that KeSPA purged them from the records etc. but that's it.
EDIT: @GeckoXP - I don't see any problem with your post, thanks for joining the discussion!
Well, if you can up with something better suited, do it on your sandbox and discuss it here. Iirc Salle suggested a spoiler with a thick warning instead of the ordinary achievement box.
It's like saying that if Wellington and Blucher declared that they lost battle of Waterloo, then history books should say that they lost becuase "it's up to them".
Facts are sAviOr and Luxury won these 5 tournaments.
Of course I can't argue against consensus - I just don't see how can organization say "oh we don't want him as our champion because he is criminal so let just remove him from the records" and I don't see why we should follow. If KeSPA declared that - I don't know - YellOw inherited all these titles (yea, complete absurd), should we kick him from the Kong line and send golden badge? o_O
Your attempt to grasp at straws here with the aim of rehabilitating savior is becoming uniquely farcical. I appreciate that you have your own ideas about what constitutes a championship, but they depart from reality. You can keep repeating these views here, but it won't answer the deficit of truth they constitute.
On December 10 2013 00:51 nimdil wrote: My point is that their achievements shouldn't be striked anywhere on liquipedia and in their achievements section, this results should be presented normally.
There should be - of course - clear notification saying that they were kicked out of progaming for life because of their crimes and that KeSPA purged them from the records etc. but that's it.
EDIT: @GeckoXP - I don't see any problem with your post, thanks for joining the discussion!
On December 09 2013 08:22 Falling wrote: I get the striking the names as far as Kespa is concerned, but I don't think it's saviour apologetics to present an alternative point of view. Carried to the extreme, it get's a little farcical of the He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named brand of Harry Potter epithets or the Thing That Never Happened.
It's an apologist attempt to separate two things which are inseparable: the results of a player and their revocation ex post facto. It is also different from your allusions because their name and results are still recorded, but with the indication of what they did.
@itsjustatank Please. I can't possibly try to rehablitate him, I'm just separating his crime from his achievements. I started watching Brood War way past his peak.
Also it's not only about sAviOr but as he is the most loved/hated of the group, he is best representative for the whole group.
His crime tainted his achievements, most of them, in such a way that treating them separately is impossible. Attempting to do so is a revionist whitewash that interprets history rather than records it. It has no place on a wiki of facts.
His crime has nothing to do with his achievements.
Attempting to change the records of history becuase of his crimes IS revisionist whitewash, that interprets his crimes as so hideous, his achievements should no longer be recorded.
On December 10 2013 02:55 Dangermousecatdog wrote: His crime has nothing to do with his achievements.
Attempting to change the records of history becuase of his crimes IS revisionist whitewash, that interprets his crimes as so hideous, his achievements should no longer be recorded.
It has no place on a wiki of FACTS.
The wiki didn't change anything, kespa did, i don't see what's the point of all of this ^^
I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
You could think of it like this: What if Kespa had randomly decided to cancel the 2006 OSL Season 3 before it even began. Furious, the players, casters, and broadcast team snuck into the studio in the middle of the night, set up the decorations, and played all their games; at the end of which Savior won, taking the prize money (which Kespa decided not to contest). Could you call him an OSL champion? Sure, he won a set of games that would under normal circumstances make him a champion, but without the authority of the governing body, such a streak of games is meaningless.
Savior was at one point an OSL champion, but he no longer is. Kespa decided that he is no longer qualified to be a champion based on that streak of games. You may, on much firmer ground, argue that what Kespa did was unfair. You cannot, however, argue that they did not do it. And Liquipedia chronicles what is and what is not, not what is fair and what is not fair (otherwise EVER2004 OSL would list iloveoov vs Yellow in the finals..... )
On December 10 2013 03:25 Hesmyrr wrote: I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
Striked achievements generally indicate that the winner somehow cheated/doped/wtv in order to get them. This is not the case here.
On December 10 2013 03:25 Hesmyrr wrote: I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
Striked achievements generally indicate that the winner somehow cheated/doped/wtv in order to get them. This is not the case here.
No it certainly isn't. It indicates that the results have been vacated.
On December 10 2013 03:25 Hesmyrr wrote: I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
Striked achievements generally indicate that the winner somehow cheated/doped/wtv in order to get them. This is not the case here.
No it certainly isn't. It indicates that the results have been vacated.
Can you give example of when the title was vacated not because of doping scandal or s.t. similar?
I think it should be more clear on the page that he was stripped of his titles by KesPA, and that this isn't editorializing by Liquipedia.
@nimdil: Liquipedia is presenting data. The strikethroughs are, I presume, to show that savior won those tournaments and was later stripped of his titles by KesPA. I think this information could be presented more clearly, but it's not biased information, it's a visual representation of the facts.
On December 10 2013 03:25 Hesmyrr wrote: I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
Striked achievements generally indicate that the winner somehow cheated/doped/wtv in order to get them. This is not the case here.
Striked achievements do not necessarily indicate that the winner was cheating, it just means they are nulled. Yes, if they have the explanation like in your savior page, it would clarify, but having them without a strikethrough gives it a legitimacy in my opinion. It's up to the governing body to do whatever they wish with the titles that they give out, so I think the Liquipedia page accurately reflects what KeSPA has done in response to the match fixing.
On December 10 2013 03:25 Hesmyrr wrote: I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
Striked achievements generally indicate that the winner somehow cheated/doped/wtv in order to get them. This is not the case here.
No it certainly isn't. It indicates that the results have been vacated.
Can you give example of when the title was vacated not because of doping scandal or s.t. similar?
To answer your question, there are a couple examples from American college sports that I know. There may be others.
A number of college basketball teams have had their wins vacated due to their participation in point-shaving scandals (a form of match-fixing in which the winning team intentionally reduces the margin of victory or the losing team intentionally increases the margin of defeat---this is harder to catch than match-fixing the win/loss).
Penn State's American football coach Joe Paterno's coaching wins were vacated due to his administration's lack of institutional oversight, which allowed sexual molestation of children to occur on team facilities.
On December 10 2013 03:25 Hesmyrr wrote: I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
Striked achievements generally indicate that the winner somehow cheated/doped/wtv in order to get them. This is not the case here.
No it certainly isn't. It indicates that the results have been vacated.
Can you give example of when the title was vacated not because of doping scandal or s.t. similar?
The MN Gopher Basketball team was stripped of all awards, titles, statistics, and records (including a Final 4 appearance) for the years 1993-1999 for academic fraud.
On December 10 2013 03:25 Hesmyrr wrote: I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
Striked achievements generally indicate that the winner somehow cheated/doped/wtv in order to get them. This is not the case here.
No it certainly isn't. It indicates that the results have been vacated.
Can you give example of when the title was vacated not because of doping scandal or s.t. similar?
Simple. Armstrong has been convicted of "doping", generally speaking, but we dont know exactly when or where, we just assume it was everytime. Thus, *all* his Tour achievments were erased. Maybe he didnt dope in a few of them? Nevertheless, it's removed. I know it's not a very good example, but you should see the reasoning.
Anyway, it's just about barring results... These are still shown on the page, why do you even argue for such an unsignificant thing. You can see he won, and was striped of his titles, which is reality, you are creating an inexistant problem... The way it is or the way you want is 99% the same... Why is it do hard to fathom?
On December 10 2013 03:25 Hesmyrr wrote: I don't know why people keeps speaking about "[changing] the records of history". The current format shows his achievements quite well. Changing the records of history would be to completely remove Savior entry from Liquipedia.
Striked achievements generally indicate that the winner somehow cheated/doped/wtv in order to get them. This is not the case here.
No it certainly isn't. It indicates that the results have been vacated.
Can you give example of when the title was vacated not because of doping scandal or s.t. similar?
The MN Gopher Basketball team was stripped of all awards, titles, statistics, and records (including a Final 4 appearance) for the years 1993-1999 for academic fraud.
Honestly I don't follow US sports, especially on academic level, so it's a bit painful to check how Wikipedia handled it but at least in this case, the solution indicate that striking the title and not showing his championships in infobox is perhaps a bit misleading. If wikipedia is any indication, what I proposed on my personal page is the way to go - thank you for arguments. Perhaps the information in the last column should be changed to "vacated" and asterisk/adnotation added next to sAviOr's 4 and Luxury's 1 championships and that's it.
@Nouar Yes - it's in no way very important matter, but it's bothering me. Also initially I wasn't sure that OGN/MBC/KeSPA actually vacated title and this discussion brought some more information.
The way this thread is developing, you really seem to be the only one who has a serious issue with a strikethrough. You have already terminally conceded the basis behind why that strikethrough exists on Liquipedia. You can continue linking to other random things, but the strikethrough is already a consensus compromise solution to the issue of matchfixers on the wiki and your advocacy is very unilateral at this point.
Once, I remember, we came upon a man-of-war anchored off the coast. There wasn't even a shed there, and she was shelling the bush. It appears the French had one of their wars going on thereabouts. Her ensign dropped limp like a rag; the muzzles of the long six-inch guns stuck out all over the low hull; the greasy, slimy swell swung her up lazily and let her down, swaying her thin masts. In the empty immensity of earth, sky, and water, there she was, incomprehensible, firing into a continent.
It's also hilarious to see you running to how Wikipedia presents things when you have rejected Wikipedia in this very thread.
On December 09 2013 06:51 nimdil wrote: @epoxide
I don't see why Liquipedia should follow. Liquipedia provides information and sAviOr (and Luxury) still is four time champion. I don't see why we need to strike it through - that's messy at best; suggests that somehow he's results are undone or whatever.
If you have a problem with Liquipedia conventions, open a thread in Liquipedia Contributors forum or in Website Feedback. This thread is being run into the ground...
EPT
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sAviOr
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