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On June 01 2010 04:19 wiesel wrote:Show nested quote +Maybe we can rebuild an e-sports scene where the average progamer isn't a slave. Just wondering how much is a B-Teamer making a year compared to the average yearly south korean income? Only heard stories like a B Teamer makes ~10k a year which in addition with housing and food would still be decent compared to a average south korean income of 20k$+(like my googled source says, i dont know) a year.
B teamers don't make anything really. They usually get housing and food. However, when you look at korea, there are entire clans that fund their own housing and food and play 12 hours. So the players are getting free housing and food by joining the B-team.
Honestly, I think B-team is a waste of time. The STX model is better. They just have B-teamers practice from their own homes and when they get good enough, they can join the A-team.
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10387 Posts
On June 01 2010 04:19 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:16 iounas wrote:
Why would players keep playing if only few top players are winning all prize money..
It will become a hobby then and hobby is opposite of pro gaming. Edit 2: Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:16 hacpee wrote:
So you're saying you'd rather have players at the level of Therock rather than Stork? If you enjoy watching that, I don't know what to say? I guess you guys must really dislike the TSL, then. All those hobby players must be an eye-sore!
You would rather watch the TSL rather than the OSL? No one's saying that we don't enjoy watching hobby players, its just that its way better to watch progamers playing at a level beyond these hobby players.
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On June 01 2010 04:19 Bill307 wrote:
I guess you guys must really dislike the TSL, then. All those hobby players must be an eye-sore!
The TSL was good in terms of promoting the foreign scene but the games were pretty bad. I watched it a bit to see how ret would do but after that, it got bland with all the obvious mistakes and multi-tasking limitations of the players.
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On June 01 2010 04:19 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:10 Waxangel wrote:Fantastic because of the narrative and scene OnGameNet created  Thankfully, I don't think we'd be regressing to 2003-level-of-play. We have higher expectations now, and the players (even non-pros) have a lot of skill built up from all these years of intense StarCraft. Even so, I don't think they have to be perfect to be entertaining. The TSLs are great example of how entertaining non-slave SC and SC2 players can be.  Edit: relatedly: Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:16 iounas wrote:
Why would players keep playing if only few top players are winning all prize money..
It will become a hobby then and hobby is opposite of pro gaming. I guess you must really dislike the TSL, then. All those hobby players must be an eye-sore!
Pro means that you make a living out of it and that its your job..
As far as I know its a hobby for everybody and they play it in their free time.. Just because someone is good doesnt mean "pro" in a true meaning..
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B-Teamers and conditions are not even relevant to this whole discussion so i don't know why people keep bringing it up.
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France2061 Posts
On June 01 2010 04:19 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:10 Waxangel wrote:Fantastic because of the narrative and scene OnGameNet created Thankfully, I don't think we'd be regressing to 2003-level-of-play. We have higher expectations now, and the players (even non-pros) have a lot of skill built up from all these years of intense StarCraft. Even so, I don't think they have to be perfect to be entertaining. The TSLs are great example of how entertaining non-slave SC and SC2 players can be. Edit: relatedly: Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:16 iounas wrote:
Why would players keep playing if only few top players are winning all prize money..
It will become a hobby then and hobby is opposite of pro gaming. Edit 2: Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:16 hacpee wrote:
So you're saying you'd rather have players at the level of Therock rather than Stork? If you enjoy watching that, I don't know what to say? I guess you guys must really dislike the TSL, then. All those hobby players must be an eye-sore!
But it's the players themselves, the Boxers and the Yellows, who chose to devote themselves to gaming full-time. They wanted to make a career out of it and the sponsors gave them that opportunity. Even if today's work conditions are pretty bad and I hope they're improved, they're still better than what the players experienced before their sponsorship deals.
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On May 31 2010 15:46 LunarDestiny wrote:
Blizzard and we remember when kespa and pro teams to boycott GOM TV season 3 and Blizzcon. I was really pissed about July can't go to blizzcon because his team stood with kespa. Blizzard definitely is pissed also.
If Kespa really cared about the fan. Why they told pro teams to boycott GOM TV season 3?
Say goodbye to Korean pros at BlizzCon2010
So sad :____(
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On June 01 2010 04:32 Bill307 wrote:I have to respect the balls it takes to dis the TSL on TLnet.  So you guys expect nothing less than 13-hours-a-day-pros when you want to enjoy a game of SC? Well, to each his own.
I agree with you 13 hours a day is certainly not healthy. Something around 8 hours should be enough.
But i think it's more of an asian work culture thing. As far as i know they have this long work days in other areas too
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I'm sorry I don't really get the whole legal status of these developments, HOW WILL THIS AFFECT BY BELOVED E-SPORTS?
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On June 01 2010 04:32 Bill307 wrote:I have to respect the balls it takes to dis the TSL on TLnet. So you guys expect nothing less than 13-hours-a-day-pros when you want to enjoy a game of SC? Well, to each his own.
Champions league final or some dudes getting together and playing in backyard and losers pay for snacks and beer..
Its still football, right?
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Personally, when I think of the players I enjoy watching, it goes like this:
1. very-top koreans (like Flash or Jaedong)
2. certain top- and high-level non-koreans (basically the ones that play smart: they might not have the best mechanics but they rarely if ever make stupid decisions)
Below them: everyone else, korean or not.
I've seen countless progamers and non-koreans alike do stupid things like leave expos blatantly undefended, or throw away their army, and decisions like that are what make players hard for me to watch. Evidently, that's not something you can fix by treating progamers like slaves. And regardless of whether they're korean or not, the players who rise to the top tend to be the ones who make the smart and creative decisions that impress me and lead to great games.
Of course, that's just my opinion.
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Anyone know what korean netizens are saying about these exchanges?
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You should stop using the term slaves its completely wrong. Tell me, what do you think the b-teamers were doing all day before they became progamers?
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On June 01 2010 04:19 wiesel wrote:Show nested quote +Maybe we can rebuild an e-sports scene where the average progamer isn't a slave. Just wondering how much is a B-Teamer earning each year compared to the average yearly south korean income? Only heard stories like a B Teamer makes ~10k a year which in addition with housing and food would still be decent compared to a average south korean income of 20k$+(like my googled source says, i dont know) a year.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126075
B-team players are given a dorm, but they don't get paid. They don't even sign a single thing, let alone a contract.
A-teamers:
What if you're one of the players that play in proleague? They sign a contract. It's not a labor contract, but a civil contract. Even then they get paid 10 million won a year on average and usually doesn't pass 20 million. A few "star" gamers earn over 200 million a year.
Average $8300 per year.
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There is nothing more to discuss, just let Korean court decide who's right who's wrong.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 04:35 snowdrift86 wrote:But it's the players themselves, the Boxers and the Yellows, who chose to devote themselves to gaming full-time. They wanted to make a career out of it and the sponsors gave them that opportunity. Even if today's work conditions are pretty bad and I hope they're improved, they're still better than what the players experienced before their sponsorship deals.
Sponsors aren't humans. They are companies. Unless you're a friend of the CEO, the company is going to evaluate you based on how they can make money with you. That's how companies work.
So some companies found they could make more money by sponsoring a handful of StarCraft players. And they set up an organization to collectively make them even more money.
Although they helped the progaming scene, it was only because they could profit from it in the long run.
Boxer didn't need perosnal sponsors to make a living, anyway. IIRC he's made over $500,000 from tournament winnings alone, which came from Starleague sponsors, who (judging from one of your earlier posts) are not necessarily members of the KeSPA.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2010 04:43 infinity2k9 wrote:
You should stop using the term slaves its completely wrong. Tell me, what do you think the b-teamers were doing all day before they became progamers?
Pursuing an education to some degree.
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Does Adidas that makes Soccer demand usage fees from the World cup? Much like this, Car Companies do not ask for usage fees from racing car contests.
lol, I can't believe they used this "argument" in official statement
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On June 01 2010 04:04 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:59 snowdrift86 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:55 Bill307 wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 snowdrift86 wrote:
What money? It's weird reading people who think that KeSPA is somehow secretly making a killing behind their players' back. It's advertising. Why should they spend money on their players or infrastructure for the sake of a crappy internet TV?
A starleague sponsor is investing way less money in esports than the KeSPA sponsors. And "before KeSPA" is before 2001 (when KPGA started), only two years of esports. Back when KeSPA was still KPGA, the only news that ever arose involving KPGA was the KPGA Tour and the KGPA player rankings. Maybe back then people just didn't know or care about KPGA's other roles in progaming. But KeSPA today seems like a completely different beast than the original KPGA. They seem to be involved in so much more. If KeSPA was always like this then that's news to me. So tell me, what exactly does KeSPA do? If they're not working for their own benefit, then whose benefit are they working for? I have trouble believing that they work solely for altruistic reasons. They don't appear to be working for the average progamer's benefit, either. They're the SPONSORS. No KeSPA = no money = no proscene. That's why saying that they're making a profit when this is mainly an advertisement venture is a bit silly. How can people keep missing this point? It's beyond me.
3 possible reasons:
1. Stupidity
2. Don't care about BW
3. Trolling
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EPT
