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[SC2B] Gas Matters - Page 3

Forum Index > News
188 CommentsPost a Reply
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Arragoth
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada9 Posts
April 26 2010 15:12 GMT
#41
There are a few geysers on the current maps where 4 miners is optimal. The far geysers on Kulas Ravine (at both the starting and the natural) bring in more far more gas with 4 then with 3. I don't have numbers handy here at work to show my proof.

The gas at the naturals on Scrap yard are the same way.

Great article, if you still feel ambitious running data for the spots I have mentioned would likely help the community a ton.

Synwave
Profile Joined July 2009
United States2803 Posts
April 26 2010 15:13 GMT
#42
Great article, not sure how to use the information just yet but glad to have it. Thanks for doing the leg works and including various graphs for reading it in different ways. I think this will be a goto reference for anyone doing highly polished tech timings.
Thanks for the work Arrian!
♞Nerdrage is the cause of global warming♞
LiquiDLegend
Profile Joined May 2009
United States61 Posts
April 26 2010 15:13 GMT
#43
very awesome read. Enteresting how it was like reading a Harvard student's essay or something! Very in-depth analysis as others said, its really good. I guess i should focus my attention to reading more about sc:bw stuff here from now on because it seems to be the only foriegn site active as of recently.

And im still enjoying Sc1, i've tried sc2 already...but i just didnt get quite with the new feel but it was entertainment and wasn't hard to play.
You don't beat me, I decide to lose.
BladeRunner
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States407 Posts
April 26 2010 15:19 GMT
#44
On April 26 2010 23:59 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2010 23 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              26 2010 23      end_of_the_skype_highlighting:43 Archerofaiur wrote:
ESCIENCE!


But seriously is there any game on the face of the earth that recieves this kind of dedicated research. Im sure Halo doesnt have statistical analysis on a professional level.

SSBM, GGXX, any competitive fighting game.

And this specific kind of analysis is ultimately quite pointless.


Don't forget EVE online, they've got a Ph.D. economist who does quarterly reports that are much more in depth than this.

I agree with other replies, reasonably good info but not very in-depth and way too verbose. The graphs all say the same thing, why not analyze minerals not mined when moving workers to gas? Or how about do a graph of mineral+gas income and overlay it onto a popular build order to give an example of what timing to move from gas to minerals or vice versa. That would have been a lot more informative.
Kickchon
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany12 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-26 15:21:44
April 26 2010 15:20 GMT
#45
Nice analysation,
however I recently did those measurements myself and as your results differed from mine I have redone my experiments and I would like to share my findings.

My experiments were done on Blistering Sands on the southwest main on faster speed. I measured every race for the southern geyser and the northern geyser for protoss additionally to compare both.
Table in spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

My results have the following implications:
1. All 3 races gather at the same speed. (Requires creep for the zerg, but the hatchery is there anyway)
2. The northern geyser might be a little bit more efficient because of its distance. Even if it is insignificant building the northern geyser first has no drawback.
3. Maybe the most drastic: The diminishing returns of the 3rd worker are nearly non-existant on both geysers.

This should demonstrate the differences on different maps more clearly.
And in conclusion the statement 3(2) > 3(1) might not be generalizable and would require further research.

Edit: I just noticed I should have done 4 workers as well. :/
Biochemist
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1008 Posts
April 26 2010 15:29 GMT
#46
2(1) and 4(2) seem to be the most interesting parts, at least on maps where 3 miners saturates your geyser. You get most of the maximum mining rate while still maximizing gas per miner.

So running with 4 on gas instead of 6 is more efficient provided your minerals aren't saturated... but in most cases once you get to that point gas is the limiting factor anyway so it's ultimately not very useful.
Uthgar
Profile Joined March 2010
United States21 Posts
April 26 2010 15:29 GMT
#47
The real question is how much more efficient is holding off on gas till you can build 2 geysers and then saturate them... or maybe even 4 after a quick expo. Do you get more gas by a certain point than if you had started one geyser a little early?
shoop
Profile Joined November 2009
United Kingdom228 Posts
April 26 2010 15:31 GMT
#48
On April 26 2010 23:37 itzbrandnew wrote:
Take your math major and shove it up your ass, the first thing people do in "real" life is make a set of assumptions for each situation.

Wow, that's a very well-balanced and constructive remark. I'm just pointing out where I think this article is weak. No need for the hating.
Mastermind
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada7096 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-26 15:33:17
April 26 2010 15:32 GMT
#49
Great effort, thanks for doing this.
Piski
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Finland3461 Posts
April 26 2010 15:41 GMT
#50
Nice article, thanks!
Fugitive
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands32 Posts
April 26 2010 15:46 GMT
#51
That's some very very interesting stuff. Thanks for the in-depth article!
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-26 15:59:33
April 26 2010 15:53 GMT
#52
good article but it does not account for something major that has been concerning me related to gas, and that is that all gas geysers are clearly not at equal distances, at least in your example!


* 1(1) | 0.74 gas/second
* 2(1) | 1.50 gas/second
* 2(2) | 1.48 gas/second
* 3(1) | 2.00 gas/second
* 3(2) | 2.23 gas/second
* 4(2) | 3.05 gas/second
* 5(2) | 3.33 gas/second
* 6(2) | 3.94 gas/second


how is this possible? 5(2) should be simply the rates of 2(1) and 3(1) added together..

clearly this means not all gas geysers are spread at an equal distance, which means if you have a 5(2) situation you should put the 3 workers on the further geyser, and the 2 worker geyser on the closer one. just look at how little the gain is between 4(2) and 5(2) in your data. and then look at the gain from 5(2) to 6(2), that's .61 gas/second increase when it should be .50 according to the difference between 2(1) and 3(1).

something's wrong with the data here, and if 4(2) and 5(2) are accurate than clearly the gain for adding another worker on that closer geyser is a very marginal gain in gas collection
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Zalan
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada18 Posts
April 26 2010 15:58 GMT
#53
Yeah, as most said: interesting info, but a bit redundant...

Would like to have more info on those 4 miners geysers, is there a list somewhere?
Must be hard to find just by looking at their position...
Each second dies upon birth, make good use of their sacrifice
starcraft911
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Korea (South)1263 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-26 16:08:08
April 26 2010 16:05 GMT
#54
Hmmm, I kinda see what youre saying... sorta... There is a thor drop build I do where the timing is pefect if i use 5 workers on gas and then have my worker that built my factory go on to the second gas once it's done, but I don't think having a graph helps at all with finding timings like that.

Also other things come into play, if i feel they might cheese and i scout a little early I have to adjust the timing on when i make the 2nd refinery a little later to make up for lost minerals and then I consequently have to add a 3rd scv earlier to make up for the missed gas effectively giving me the same gas with a later refinery, but vs P i usually will take refinery earlier if I'm going to do this build so they don't gas steal it.

how is this possible? 5(2) should be simply the rates of 2(1) and 3(1) added together..

clearly this means not all gas geysers are spread at an equal distance


Yea.. I'd think it's pretty obvious... The geysers that are further away don't mine at 100% efficiency. There are a couple on the new 2v2 maps that are especially bad. I think one on the left of metalopolis is bad too. I was obsing a game vs 2 friends and noticed that one had faster gas income even though they had 6 on gas each. Just like in sc1 some geysers benefit from 4.
FrontalMonkey
Profile Joined February 2010
United States90 Posts
April 26 2010 16:07 GMT
#55
Wow, great research Arrian! I'm a super noob down in the coppers, but because of how it seemed to look I always put 2 workers on a gas (it seemed like there was no downtime, so no reason to put 3 on it) so thank you for putting it simply for me (yes, having all the math set up on charts and graphs is "simply" for me lol).
Believe in me who believes in you
josemb40
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Peru611 Posts
April 26 2010 16:17 GMT
#56
Very interesting, thnx for the report!
wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
April 26 2010 16:24 GMT
#57
This was my favorite line
What this means for actual play could be very significant, or not so much.



This could be extremely important......or not at all.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
April 26 2010 16:33 GMT
#58
nice
Xerrea
Profile Joined April 2010
Denmark41 Posts
April 26 2010 16:41 GMT
#59
i got headache now
GreatDestroyer
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3 Posts
April 26 2010 16:41 GMT
#60
It would have been easy to have the same mineral collection as is Brood War, but the new mechanics make us have to reanalyze everything. I personally enjoy that a lot in contrast to everything being standardized and those with the faster fingers reigning supreme. Great work and analysis, I hope more like this will come as SC2 is released and more people gain access to it.
I find your lack of faith disturbing
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