• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:18
CEST 19:18
KST 02:18
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End0Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7
Community News
GSTL Returns in 2026!41Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-611
StarCraft 2
General
GSTL Returns in 2026! Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement! Protoss AoE skill expression Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Announcement Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 538 Media Blackout The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch
Brood War
General
Rush's Odyssey Controversy StarCraft 64 is coming to Philly at SC4ALL II BW General Discussion Best Games Kespa era [ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End
Tourneys
CSLAN 4 is Coming! [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro24 Group A Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Artificial Intelligence Thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
MLB/Baseball 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Chinese Gen Z: Between Dream…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8581 users

[SC2B] Gas Matters

Forum Index > News
188 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All

[SC2B] Gas Matters

Text byArrian
April 26th, 2010 08:27 GMT
[image loading]

Don't get comfortable Aldaris. You're going to be chastising many a Protoss for not having enough gas for many years to come.

Don't let the extra geyser fool you. Things have changed in so far as concerns our favorite gaseous resource, vespane gas, and in quite a few far reaching and profound ways. And it's not just Aldaris who needs to be on his toes. Every race has been affected by the changes made to resource collection in general, not just vespane gas, and the consequences are large.

Although most will know this, here is a summary to the basic changes to gas collection:
  • geysers now return only 4 gas a trip
  • every main and expo in the map pool has 2 geysers
  • geysers are 75 minerals (25 for zerg + the assumed 50 for the drone)
  • geysers return no gas once depleted

So naturally this plays much differently in terms of teching, but with some interesting options. These changes make gas collection more graded, which in Brood War was accomplished by yanking miners off the geyser. That reduced the collection rate substantially, and it was only with real purpose that workers would be taken from gas.

Thus, in Brood War, gas, more or less throughout the game, had 2 gears: high or none. Yes, Terrans would pull SCVs in the opening but the majority of every match had 3 on gas once the mining structure was complete. But that's not so in SC2. There are debates about how heavily to invest in gas, when, and what the best combination is. To this end, I did a detailed analysis of gas collection rates with the 9 possible (read, reasonable) combinations of gas collection based on the number of geysers used (in parentheses) and the number of miners used.

Granted this analysis is limited in scope. While I strongly suspect there are no differences in gas collection rates between the races, my analysis was limited only to Terran, on Lost Temple at 6 o'clock. Of course, I am assuming that these are typical geyser positions and there are no differences between the gas collection rates between the races, and there were other moderate sources of error, namely a non-uniform starting place for the gas collection, but this is normed by the large number of data points and the absolute nature of gas collection. Thus, by linear regression, an approximation of the rate of gas collection can be ascertained, but more importantly, its relation to other methods of gas collection.

In the spoiler is the raw data table. If people want to analyze the replays from which I got these data, I can release those as well.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Below are the individual data points as they stack up. Some error in imperfect data collection is visible but the overall pattern is fairly stable, and the conclusions are both rather intuitive and fairly reasonable. As noted above, the number of geysers taken is in parentheses and the number of miners collecting gas is beside it.

[image loading]


A few things to note before going on to the conclusions:
  • The rate gas collection from 3(1) and 4(1) are identical. 3 miners saturates 1 geyser completely for all intents and purposes. In Brood War the rate of gas collection of 4 vs 3 was approximately 4 more gas for every 200, so the difference between 3(1) and 4(1) has not significantly changed between Brood War and SC2.
  • The number of data points is uneven for each, although each has an acceptable minimum from which to draw conclusions.
  • In order to better standardize the collection rates, measurement began after the first gas trip was concluded, which is why every line begins above 0. All are at 4 excepting 5(2) where both miners completed their first trips at identical times to start at 8.


So, with that out of the way, it is generally true that the graph validates the intuitions of most players and many conclusions carry over from Brood War. Despite how obvious many of these may seem to be, it is important to note every one of them because SC2 is a different game, and the changes to resource collection have been substantial. So, taking nothing for granted, to make everything prettier and easier to read, I will once again bullet the conclusions:
  • With the exception of 4(1) and 3(1), having more miners on gas increases the gas collection rate. You do not see the line for 3(1) because it perfectly overlaps with 4(1).
  • There is no significant difference between 2 miners on separate geysers and having 2 miners on the same geyser (see the lines for 2(2) and 2(1)).
  • Possibly the most interesting conclusion from the graph is the difference between 3(2) and 3(1). The collection rate of 3(2) is significantly faster than that of 3(1). This would seem to make sense; miners have a brief idle period in 3(1) that is not realized in 3(2), allowing for faster gas collection.
  • There are clear 'don'ts' for gas collection as relates to mineral economy; 4(1), 2(2), and possibly 1(1) waste a disproportionate amount of time or minerals per gas gained.


Now is an appropriate time for an aside. I chose the Lost Temple 6 o'clock because it has a fairly typical mining distance, but not all geysers are created equal. Some, like those on Metalopolis, have very short distances and can run at much greater efficiency than those on Kulas Ravine, for example. In instances where the distances are shorter, the difference in the rate of collection between 3(1) and 3(2) is more exaggerated because there is a longer layover for the 3rd miner and because 2 miners is already very efficient, but on those where the distances to the gas are longer the difference is mitigated somewhat by the shorter layover.

The exact collection rates, however, are far more useful to draw conclusions from. SC2 replays give vague and imprecise collection rates under the 'income' tab which are hardly of any significant utility to a player trying to decide when to pull miners off gas, how many miners are needed, and when to start a second geyser, especially in-game. The following are the collection rates based on linear regressions from data of the chart above. The b values have all been dropped because they don't mean anything aside from the consequences of my norming, and remember that the m value (the rate) is in vespane gas/second, but since vespane gas isn't collected continuously but rather in chunks of 4 these rates are only useful in so far as they are compared to other rates of the same units and won't give you measures in seconds on when you can most closely time your Orbital Command, for example. That having been said, here they are:
  • 1(1) | 0.74 gas/second
  • 2(1) | 1.50 gas/second
  • 2(2) | 1.48 gas/second
  • 3(1) | 2.00 gas/second
  • 3(2) | 2.23 gas/second
  • 4(2) | 3.05 gas/second
  • 5(2) | 3.33 gas/second
  • 6(2) | 3.94 gas/second

Several things stand out from this. First, as could be expected, having 2 miners on the same gas doubles the collection rate, and having 2 miners on 2 separate gas does the same. However, noticeably, having 3 miners on the same gas does not triple the collection rate, but having 2 on 1 gas and 1 on the other does (because of the aforementioned brief traffic jam on a saturated geyser). Having 4 gas on 2 quadruples the collection rate, but again upon saturation of 1 the collection rate does not gain as much, and further unto the saturation of a second. Perhaps more useful here would be to look at a somewhat unusual comparison, but paradoxically far more comprehensible to your average player, being seconds/gas. Essentially, we're just flipping the previous collection rates on their heads to get something far more useful out of it. The following is how many seconds there are between gas returns.
  • 1(1) | 5.40 seconds
  • 2(1) | 2.66 seconds
  • 2(2) | 2.70 seconds (*this is not a significant difference from 2(1))
  • 3(1) | 2.00 seconds
  • 3(2) | 1.79 seconds
  • 4(2) | 1.31 seconds
  • 5(2) | 1.20 seconds
  • 6(2) | 1.00 seconds

Now, a very compelling pattern emerges here, one that looks like an exponential function. I took this and graphed it. Now, naturally, the actual data is more accurate than the function, and several manipulations removed from the actual data we're really getting into abstractions here, but the below graph essentially tells us that the amount of time exponentially decreases with each added miner per the function (calculated via exponential regression) f(x)=8.02477326e^-.4418030032x

[image loading]


The graph bears some discussion. Naturally, the actual utility of the graph cuts off after 6, because geysers are saturated at 3. The fit also isn't perfect, especially because 3(2) is quite anomalous to the pattern and is also very difficult to precisely compensate for, but the graph does reflect the effect that adding additional miners has on the speed of gas returns.

What this means for actual play could be very significant, or not so much. Gas always seems to be in high demand, and its collection is far more limited than mineral collection, but the amount of options in adjusting collection rates and the varying methods of investment allow intriguing possibilites for opening timing windows or interesting transitions. Essentially, what the gas changes have meant to play thus far is that there no longer need be just two settings for a player's gas collection, that you can alter and adjust the rate of gas collection based on needs and especially transitions and openings. This graph shows the value of each miner relative to the next or the one before it, and perhaps can, with care, be used to calculate more precise timings and adjustments for gas needs.

With all of this information we can also calculate which early gas is most cost efficient per minerals invested. With this, we actually use the rate of gas collection because it's easier to think about (in my opinion). Below is a friendly table that will make everything prettier to look at.

[image loading]


Unfortunately the table is the organized more by the scrambled nature of my brain than any real organizing principle so things may not be immediately apparent. Some things, as with the other graphs and pretty pictures, should stand out immediately, though. Namely, the value of adding just one more miner to gas early is huge. For 40% of the initial investment, there is a 100% increase in returns. Also, there's hardly any reason to construct two early gas if only 2 miners will be dedicated to them. Most SC players know this of course, but I've seen it. The most interesting datum is the 3(1) v 3(2) contrast. For 75% of the investment, ~90% of the gas is returned. So, while 3(2) does mine significantly better than 3(1), it is probably not worth the investment. Some other conclusions may be gleaned, but this wouldn't be fun if I just told you everything, now would it?

The most important thing to remember is that this is an examination of a single race, on a single map, at a single starting position, in the beta test. Because also these data were largely meant to influence how the opening can play out and options for tech, I did not do any testing on the high yield geysers included in the map editor or any testing on the varying distances that the geysers are from the spawn location. While the conclusions from this examination can likely be extrapolated across many other situations, there is no guarantee that they can, and as much stock should be placed in this as it deserves.

And those are the gas matters.

EDIT: There seems to be a fair bit of confusion about the graph. Just so everyone is clear, I should have put a domain on it and cut it off after 6, or simply edited the image to go no further, but as it stands, my MSPaint skills are marginal at best. Of course, I never meant for the graph to mean anything before 1 or after 6, and some people were confused by this. I submit this as my correction.


This post was made by the Team Liquid Starcraft 2 Coverage Team. For more of TL's coverage, please visit the Team Liquid Starcraft 2 Beta Page.
Facebook Twitter Reddit
Writersator arepo tenet opera rotas
prOxi.swAMi
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Australia3091 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-26 08:37:39
April 26 2010 08:36 GMT
#2
SCIENCE.

Seriously, very interesting. Kudos for going so in-depth into it. Your graphs got me thinking, I think SC2's release will hopefully add some really interesting graphs in their scores screen. The current ones are good but just two is not enough there's room for way more.
Oh no
TossPro
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway10 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-26 08:47:16
April 26 2010 08:39 GMT
#3
1st!

im contributing


User was warned for this post.
Qwote
professorjoak
Profile Joined July 2008
318 Posts
April 26 2010 08:40 GMT
#4
Nice article. Are there any positions on any of the maps where one of your geysers mines faster than the other geyser if you only put 2 SCVs/drones/probes in it? I'm guessing that your test position was fine since the 2(1) and 2(2) data were essentially the same.
"The different branches of Arithmetic -- Ambition, Distraction, Uglification, and Derision." --Lewis Carroll
kimchiterran
Profile Joined May 2008
Poland81 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-26 08:42:47
April 26 2010 08:40 GMT
#5
As a side, but very important note: on various maps, 4(1) > 3(1) (you can't maximize one geyser mining with 3 workers).

Edit: answering question above - yes, there are geysers which are closer to your main base and some are far. This is pretty crucial knowledge and you should always build your first Refinery / Extractor / Assimilator on the better spot.

/R
kimchi makes perfect~
Clearout
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway1060 Posts
April 26 2010 08:43 GMT
#6
Wow, fantastic writeup and really interesting. I love it when people does this kind of thorough reasearch, and then writes it up good and befitting standards of a scientific magazine. Very well done!
really?
v3chr0
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States856 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-26 08:54:17
April 26 2010 08:47 GMT
#7
Good read very interesting... quite a work of art you have there, maybe people will think about throwing more into gas for transitions.

Articles like this are really good, for the community, and perhaps for Blizzard.

Edit: Also got me thinking, I have played SC/BW but that was a while ago, are the gas distances also not static? and considering SC2, wouldn't there be a concern about this? because perhaps for some maps it would be really good to use 4 or even 5 workers on gas because of the distance?
"He catches him with his pants down, backs him off into a corner, and then it's over." - Khaldor
Simple
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States801 Posts
April 26 2010 08:48 GMT
#8
the 3(1) vs 3(2) makes since once you have the numbers written down and you can see them in action. small difference, but noticeable once you extrapolate that across several expos
SC2Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2814 Posts
April 26 2010 08:49 GMT
#9
ahhhh... the power of science Gj, interesting stuff
Who the fuck has a family of fucking trees? This song is so god damn stupid. Fuck you song, fuck you and your stupid trees. -itmeJP
Drunken.Jedi
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany446 Posts
April 26 2010 08:55 GMT
#10
Very interesting article. Now all we need is someone to test all the starting positions and naturals on all maps to see how much extra gas the third worker mines for each geyser.
Swap
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden144 Posts
April 26 2010 08:56 GMT
#11
Interesting, and impressing. I dont know how much use it'll be for me. But I like these kind of articles anyway, makes the game experience deeper.
he he... ja
denzelz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States604 Posts
April 26 2010 09:00 GMT
#12
I appreciate the data collection but it seems to me that the conclusion is simply: double mineral investment = double gas collection rate.

I think the choice between 5(2) and 6(2) are potentially most interesting, but unfortunately most builds these days take the 2nd gas late and thus the 50 mineral difference would not be as significant as in early game.

I also can't see anyone taking 3(2) over 3(1) just to squeeze out a minor advantage.
Naf
Profile Joined April 2010
Denmark68 Posts
April 26 2010 09:05 GMT
#13
On April 26 2010 17:39 TossPro wrote:
1st!

im contributing


User was warned for this post.


hehe, epic fail

anyways, really good read... all though I'm not quite there yet... just got my beta yesterday and I realize how much different it is watching the game than playing it o_O

in other words... I'm being owned >_<
OPSavioR
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1465 Posts
April 26 2010 09:08 GMT
#14
Good read i liked the graphs
i dunno lol
mfZOR
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia49 Posts
April 26 2010 09:55 GMT
#15
Shit mate,

Awesome read. Very technical
Tufas
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Austria2259 Posts
April 26 2010 09:57 GMT
#16
I am a top gold player on EU and I actually think I might go for some 4(2) action ! thanks you !
Where is my ACE flair
BaltA
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Norway849 Posts
April 26 2010 10:08 GMT
#17
good read, amazing how ppl think of these things, that's why TL.net is the best community!
diejule
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany416 Posts
April 26 2010 10:09 GMT
#18
This is really awesome. I love looking at these numbers and come to some conclusions myself. Thank you!
Stay open minded. Always.
Arbiter[frolix]
Profile Joined January 2004
United Kingdom2674 Posts
April 26 2010 10:22 GMT
#19
A very interesting and informative article.
We are vigilant.
Vetlock
Profile Joined April 2010
Turkey18 Posts
April 26 2010 10:45 GMT
#20
What has science done..But really a good graph and calculations,maybe your major is on math :p
Need a vet?
1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
HomeStory Cup
17:00
Promo Event
TaKeTV 591
IPSL
16:00
CSLAN Day 2
Airneanach144
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 211
EmSc Tv 19
Vindicta 2
StarCraft: Brood War
Sexy 80
ZZZero.O 61
Rock 29
Bale 29
zelot 18
scan(afreeca) 17
NaDa 15
ivOry 12
Dota 2
qojqva4588
Counter-Strike
fl0m6237
ScreaM1797
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King242
Chillindude32
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu122
Other Games
singsing1500
Liquid`RaSZi1362
Beastyqt667
mouzStarbuck0
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick585
StarCraft 2
EmSc Tv 19
EmSc2Tv 19
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Reevou 7
• intothetv
• Kozan
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 31
• Azhi_Dahaki12
• Pr0nogo 2
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV984
League of Legends
• Jankos2045
• Nemesis1938
Other Games
• Shiphtur581
• imaqtpie26
Upcoming Events
OSC
6h 43m
Afreeca Starleague
16h 43m
Rush vs Hm
Bisu vs Shuttle
WardiTV Weekly
17h 43m
The Patches Monday
22h 43m
Afreeca Starleague
1d 16h
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
GSL
1d 17h
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
PiG Sty Festival
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
PiG Sty Festival
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
PiG Sty Festival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S3: W7
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
CSLAN 4
Proleague 2026-08-16
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

ASL Season 22
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 1
Escore Tournament S3: W8
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.