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On April 21 2010 13:51 IdrA wrote:
no
massing basic units is a solid, easy way to beat people who play poorly and a good way to solidify an advantage. a good z can beat a mediocre p in sc1 just by attack moving hydras, that doesnt mean theres no subtlety in sc1.
people werent abusing hive well at first, people didnt micro mutas at all. you really expect the game to be born with the depth that evolved over 11 years before?
hell, the infestor might be the best caster in the game all things considered and haypro, one of the best z's on europe, doesnt even think theyre worth making. dont construe bad player's approach to a 2 month old game as some kind of inherent flaw in the game.
probably wont respond since you want to keep your competive endge, but do you mind sending a replay with your infester play :D.
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On April 21 2010 13:56 UmmTheHobo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 13:51 IdrA wrote:
no
massing basic units is a solid, easy way to beat people who play poorly and a good way to solidify an advantage. a good z can beat a mediocre p in sc1 just by attack moving hydras, that doesnt mean theres no subtlety in sc1.
people werent abusing hive well at first, people didnt micro mutas at all. you really expect the game to be born with the depth that evolved over 11 years before?
hell, the infestor might be the best caster in the game all things considered and haypro, one of the best z's on europe, doesnt even think theyre worth making. dont construe bad player's approach to a 2 month old game as some kind of inherent flaw in the game.
Very early replays of Sc1 are more interesting than the Sc2 we are seeing right now :/
There are no replays of very early SC1. What are you talking about?
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On April 21 2010 13:56 UmmTheHobo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 13:51 IdrA wrote:
no
massing basic units is a solid, easy way to beat people who play poorly and a good way to solidify an advantage. a good z can beat a mediocre p in sc1 just by attack moving hydras, that doesnt mean theres no subtlety in sc1.
people werent abusing hive well at first, people didnt micro mutas at all. you really expect the game to be born with the depth that evolved over 11 years before?
hell, the infestor might be the best caster in the game all things considered and haypro, one of the best z's on europe, doesnt even think theyre worth making. dont construe bad player's approach to a 2 month old game as some kind of inherent flaw in the game.
Very early replays of Sc1 are more interesting than the Sc2 we are seeing right now :/
Very early replays of SC1 don't exist =\
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On April 21 2010 14:01 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 13:56 UmmTheHobo wrote:On April 21 2010 13:51 IdrA wrote:
no
massing basic units is a solid, easy way to beat people who play poorly and a good way to solidify an advantage. a good z can beat a mediocre p in sc1 just by attack moving hydras, that doesnt mean theres no subtlety in sc1.
people werent abusing hive well at first, people didnt micro mutas at all. you really expect the game to be born with the depth that evolved over 11 years before?
hell, the infestor might be the best caster in the game all things considered and haypro, one of the best z's on europe, doesnt even think theyre worth making. dont construe bad player's approach to a 2 month old game as some kind of inherent flaw in the game.
Very early replays of Sc1 are more interesting than the Sc2 we are seeing right now :/ There are no replays of very early SC1. What are you talking about?
And when they were they were only intresting because they buged out and it like a completely diffrent game
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Awesome read.
I agree 100%, and as a SC1 Zerg Player, I'm very sad at the state of Zerg in SC2 (I cry when I go to sleep).
But as you said, things could change, and I really hope they do.
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On April 21 2010 13:51 IdrA wrote:
no
massing basic units is a solid, easy way to beat people who play poorly and a good way to solidify an advantage. a good z can beat a mediocre p in sc1 just by attack moving hydras, that doesnt mean theres no subtlety in sc1.
people werent abusing hive well at first, people didnt micro mutas at all. you really expect the game to be born with the depth that evolved over 11 years before?
hell, the infestor might be the best caster in the game all things considered and haypro, one of the best z's on europe, doesnt even think theyre worth making. dont construe bad player's approach to a 2 month old game as some kind of inherent flaw in the game.
There's still no reason to get hive other than upgrades/broodlords at the moment. You can't argue that. They do need to fix up the way hivetech zerg behaves.
I do agree that we shouldn't expect to see zerg play evolve overnight into something at the strategic level of BW, but right now it feels like the roach doesn't have quite a defined role in the zerg army, so much as being a really good unit to get. Adrenaline needs a massive buff (50-100% atk speed) so zerglings can see usefulness lategame. Right now why would you get lings when you can make roach?
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On April 21 2010 14:00 Ginko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 13:51 IdrA wrote:
no
massing basic units is a solid, easy way to beat people who play poorly and a good way to solidify an advantage. a good z can beat a mediocre p in sc1 just by attack moving hydras, that doesnt mean theres no subtlety in sc1.
people werent abusing hive well at first, people didnt micro mutas at all. you really expect the game to be born with the depth that evolved over 11 years before?
hell, the infestor might be the best caster in the game all things considered and haypro, one of the best z's on europe, doesnt even think theyre worth making. dont construe bad player's approach to a 2 month old game as some kind of inherent flaw in the game.
probably wont respond since you want to keep your competive endge, but do you mind sending a replay with your infester play :D. sorry no, but i used them a lot in the starswar games, vods of those might be up eventually.
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Excellent thread. The zergling needs fixed, badly. I just don't see it used.
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On April 21 2010 13:40 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 13:37 Floophead_III wrote:
Zerg is in need of a major overhaul, I agree. Right now the chief problem lies in the fact that the best solution to every problem is "make more units." What units function well vs every army? Hydra/roach.. It seems like we've come full circle from everyone complaining about hardcounters. :D /totally agree. Hydraroach is too good at everything. Seriously, I was, from day one, telling everyone to shut the fuck up about hardcounters, and that the percieved issue of hardcounters and randomness actually belied a deeper issue with SC2 play, and that hardcounters weren't any more prevalent then BW. People would just describe these problems that had with the game, which weren't in any way shape or form actually connected to hardcounters, then scream HARDCOUNTERS. (This isn't directed at you  . Just ranting a bit).
see what I dont like about hard counters in SC2 is that theyre not nearly as interesting as they were in BW. For instance in BW archons counter mutas, but mutas could still be just as effective with great micro. Lurkers counter MnM but with great micro lurkers are awful vs MnM. Hard counters in BW were units that put the onus on the countered player to micro much more, counters didnt just do way extra damage or take way less damage from the units they counter. The immortal I think the epitome of the hard counter system in SC2 and its SO LAME. 2x more damage to armored and takes way less damage from large attacks. No amount of micro changes it.
The hard counter system isnt the worst thing about SC2 at all but I think it's not really that great.
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On April 21 2010 14:11 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 13:51 IdrA wrote:
no
massing basic units is a solid, easy way to beat people who play poorly and a good way to solidify an advantage. a good z can beat a mediocre p in sc1 just by attack moving hydras, that doesnt mean theres no subtlety in sc1.
people werent abusing hive well at first, people didnt micro mutas at all. you really expect the game to be born with the depth that evolved over 11 years before?
hell, the infestor might be the best caster in the game all things considered and haypro, one of the best z's on europe, doesnt even think theyre worth making. dont construe bad player's approach to a 2 month old game as some kind of inherent flaw in the game.
There's still no reason to get hive other than upgrades/broodlords at the moment. You can't argue that. They do need to fix up the way hivetech zerg behaves. I do agree that we shouldn't expect to see zerg play evolve overnight into something at the strategic level of BW, but right now it feels like the roach doesn't have quite a defined role in the zerg army, so much as being a really good unit to get. Adrenaline needs a massive buff (50-100% atk speed) so zerglings can see usefulness lategame. Right now why would you get lings when you can make roach?
theres no reason to get hive other than broodlords? thats a pretty good reason.
ultras are useful in some circumstances, which imo is better than in sc1 where it was "please god let me stay alive till i have freewin units", since theyre basically the only thing that can take a hsm and still fight an army. so if you get a terran whos sacrificing army strength to get a fleet of ravens ultra ling and map control becomes quite good.
lings are underpowered in almost all circumstances besides shutting down non banshee gayness early zvt though, that i would agree with.
as for roaches, did goons really have a special defined role in sc1? they were just kind of a powerful all purpose unit. that kind of thing isnt necessarily bad. and really given the burrow harass and regen, and the fact that a tiny range is its limiting factor, the roach is more unique than the equivalent sc1 units.
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On April 21 2010 14:12 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 14:00 Ginko wrote:On April 21 2010 13:51 IdrA wrote:
no
massing basic units is a solid, easy way to beat people who play poorly and a good way to solidify an advantage. a good z can beat a mediocre p in sc1 just by attack moving hydras, that doesnt mean theres no subtlety in sc1.
people werent abusing hive well at first, people didnt micro mutas at all. you really expect the game to be born with the depth that evolved over 11 years before?
hell, the infestor might be the best caster in the game all things considered and haypro, one of the best z's on europe, doesnt even think theyre worth making. dont construe bad player's approach to a 2 month old game as some kind of inherent flaw in the game.
probably wont respond since you want to keep your competive endge, but do you mind sending a replay with your infester play :D. sorry no, but i used them a lot in the starswar games, vods of those might be up eventually.
mind linking the starwars site? Also im sure we are ganna see you rape orb with them anyway so looking forward to that 
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On April 21 2010 14:19 Ginko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 14:12 IdrA wrote:On April 21 2010 14:00 Ginko wrote:On April 21 2010 13:51 IdrA wrote:
no
massing basic units is a solid, easy way to beat people who play poorly and a good way to solidify an advantage. a good z can beat a mediocre p in sc1 just by attack moving hydras, that doesnt mean theres no subtlety in sc1.
people werent abusing hive well at first, people didnt micro mutas at all. you really expect the game to be born with the depth that evolved over 11 years before?
hell, the infestor might be the best caster in the game all things considered and haypro, one of the best z's on europe, doesnt even think theyre worth making. dont construe bad player's approach to a 2 month old game as some kind of inherent flaw in the game.
probably wont respond since you want to keep your competive endge, but do you mind sending a replay with your infester play :D. sorry no, but i used them a lot in the starswar games, vods of those might be up eventually. mind linking the starwars site? Also im sure we are ganna see you rape orb with them anyway so looking forward to that
A link to some of the vods can be found in the Stars War live-report thread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=119768¤tpage=43
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How about overseer having a more useful spell other than spawn changling? They seem to have room for interesting spells.
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On April 21 2010 14:25 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 14:19 Ginko wrote:On April 21 2010 14:12 IdrA wrote:On April 21 2010 14:00 Ginko wrote:On April 21 2010 13:51 IdrA wrote:
no
massing basic units is a solid, easy way to beat people who play poorly and a good way to solidify an advantage. a good z can beat a mediocre p in sc1 just by attack moving hydras, that doesnt mean theres no subtlety in sc1.
people werent abusing hive well at first, people didnt micro mutas at all. you really expect the game to be born with the depth that evolved over 11 years before?
hell, the infestor might be the best caster in the game all things considered and haypro, one of the best z's on europe, doesnt even think theyre worth making. dont construe bad player's approach to a 2 month old game as some kind of inherent flaw in the game.
probably wont respond since you want to keep your competive endge, but do you mind sending a replay with your infester play :D. sorry no, but i used them a lot in the starswar games, vods of those might be up eventually. mind linking the starwars site? Also im sure we are ganna see you rape orb with them anyway so looking forward to that A link to some of the vods can be found in the Stars War live-report thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=119768¤tpage=43
ty sir!
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On April 21 2010 14:18 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 14:11 Floophead_III wrote:On April 21 2010 13:51 IdrA wrote:
no
massing basic units is a solid, easy way to beat people who play poorly and a good way to solidify an advantage. a good z can beat a mediocre p in sc1 just by attack moving hydras, that doesnt mean theres no subtlety in sc1.
people werent abusing hive well at first, people didnt micro mutas at all. you really expect the game to be born with the depth that evolved over 11 years before?
hell, the infestor might be the best caster in the game all things considered and haypro, one of the best z's on europe, doesnt even think theyre worth making. dont construe bad player's approach to a 2 month old game as some kind of inherent flaw in the game.
There's still no reason to get hive other than upgrades/broodlords at the moment. You can't argue that. They do need to fix up the way hivetech zerg behaves. I do agree that we shouldn't expect to see zerg play evolve overnight into something at the strategic level of BW, but right now it feels like the roach doesn't have quite a defined role in the zerg army, so much as being a really good unit to get. Adrenaline needs a massive buff (50-100% atk speed) so zerglings can see usefulness lategame. Right now why would you get lings when you can make roach? theres no reason to get hive other than broodlords? thats a pretty good reason. ultras are useful in some circumstances, which imo is better than in sc1 where it was "please god let me stay alive till i have freewin units", since theyre basically the only thing that can take a hsm and still fight an army. so if you get a terran whos sacrificing army strength to get a fleet of ravens ultra ling and map control becomes quite good. lings are underpowered in almost all circumstances besides shutting down non banshee gayness early zvt though, that i would agree with. as for roaches, did goons really have a special defined role in sc1? they were just kind of a powerful all purpose unit. that kind of thing isnt necessarily bad. and really given the burrow harass and regen, and the fact that a tiny range is its limiting factor, the roach is more unique than the equivalent sc1 units.
At least goons took 2 food and had the IQ of a retarded downsmonkey on meth. =P
And broodlords are DEFINITELY a good reason to get hive. However, they shouldn't be the only reason. Ultras might find a strong use ZvP by soaking coli hits, and they do make zealots evaporate stupid fast. Unfortunately roaches also make zealots evaporate so there's no reason to make ultras for that purpose.
Also, I'm terran, and I still think banshees might overshadow reapers in terms of pure gayness. Agree on that count.
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United States11393 Posts
On April 21 2010 14:18 IdrA wrote:
as for roaches, did goons really have a special defined role in sc1? they were just kind of a powerful all purpose unit. that kind of thing isnt necessarily bad. and really given the burrow harass and regen, and the fact that a tiny range is its limiting factor, the roach is more unique than the equivalent sc1 units.
But Blizzard has been repeatedly nerfing what makes the roach unique while it still remains a strong all-purpose unit.
Is it really that bad if Blizzard instead just emphasized what makes it unique while not making it such an all purpose unit?
Most zergs disgruntled with sc2 zerg want to play Zerg, not Protoss. 
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You summed up my thoughts pretty well. Zergling viability in late game with tier 3 units should be fixed.
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Great post! I agree completely, I was just thinking of how terrible zerglings are late game -_-
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While I am impressed with the thought and effort that went into your post, I still think that only time can tell what the true potential of the races is even with the current state of the game. The part that I agree most with, however, is the idea that tier three should provide more units for Zerg to play with. Even on that note, I still think that it is too early to tell how the match ups will end up working next year, or the year after that, as people learn how the game is best fitted to be played on a professional level.
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EPT
