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[SC2B] Zerg: The Evolution (or Devolution) - Page 16

Forum Index > News
321 CommentsPost a Reply
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Mr.E
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States434 Posts
April 25 2010 16:26 GMT
#301
This is a really good post. I hope blizzard looks at it.
Looking for top-tier practice partners, especially Z; PM me
v3chr0
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States856 Posts
April 26 2010 02:46 GMT
#302
Great post, I completely agree, its not about balance, it's about the feel of the game in the hands of each race, and Zerg really lacks its SC/BW finesse.
"He catches him with his pants down, backs him off into a corner, and then it's over." - Khaldor
CynanMachae
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Canada1459 Posts
April 26 2010 16:37 GMT
#303
REally great post, it really sums it up well
Jang Yoon Chul hwaiting!
NetherOgle
Profile Joined June 2009
United States3 Posts
April 27 2010 05:39 GMT
#304
I'm completely horrified by this article. I've been trying to think happy thoughts with regard to the upcoming release of SCII, but now all I have are not-so-happy thoughts. I really hope that feedback from Korean e-sports players is heavily weighted during the beta. I'm not involved enough to know the answer to that question. Starcraft was but a game to me until I became aware of Korean progamer matches. You can't fully respect the legacy that is Starcraft without watching at least 100 hours worth of Jon747's Korean eSports Channel (or equal). If SCII kills micro, then I guess we will always have SC. Maybe I should get my hands on the beta so I can fully form some opinions.
“As the Red Queen told Alice in Wonderland, you have to entertain six impossible ideas before breakfast.”
Corrupt
Profile Joined August 2009
Bulgaria1312 Posts
April 27 2010 15:47 GMT
#305
I'm not sure why but this read made me feel a little sad. :\
Just a guy trying to enjoy living in the worst timeline and failing miserably since 1990.
Lerts
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2 Posts
April 27 2010 19:10 GMT
#306
Hey, i love this community btw and iam enjoying going to some forums and reading the info at the top of the page and posting about it.

I used to play Zerg all of the time in SC:1/ Broodwar but now i have switched sides and went over to the side of the always ownage race, Protoss when i played SC:2 beta(at my friends house) becuase, like you said they are way to bland and boring and so i dont get any enjoyment out of the Zerg race anymore.
"Beer is living proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
EmeraldSparks
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States1451 Posts
April 28 2010 08:32 GMT
#307
i was gonna open a new topic in SC2 and then i realized i had basically copied a section from this article word-for-word which i confirmed when i checked it

c'est la vie; anywhere, here is some random elaboration in why zerglings blow

Glass on Glass - Zergling's Lament
+ Show Spoiler +
This thread is not about racial imbalance. But it is about how one of the defining features of the Zerg race - glass on glass - has dramatically reduced the role of the in Starcraft 2.

All units in any RTS, or any game for that matter, have a certain DPS and a certain hit point; essentially, the ability to dish damage and to take it. Very loosely, this ratio, if low, makes a unit a "tank" or a "meatshield;" if high, you're looking at a "glass cannon."

If you're working with an army of mixed composition, then your goal is for your meatshields to take the hits while your glass cannons dish damage with impunity. When a unit with a low ratio is determined to take damage in lieu of high ratio units, it's known as tanking.

It's easy, then, to see why a mixed army can easily dominate a uniform army if this tanking is done properly. However, if your meatshields are unable to tank for the glass cannons - say, in the case of zerglings which are always going to be in front - then a mixed army, generally speaking, is worse than a uniform army since in glass with tank backup, your glass is killed and at the same time the tanks do not deal much damage during this process; better to have glass with glass support so that when the front lines are broken, the backup has already dealt a whole lot of damage, or to have tank with tank support.

As an illustration, consider a modified version of Starcraft with Attack Marines and Defense Marines; where Attack Marines have double damage but Defense marines have double health. Attack Marines and Defense Marines are, of course, tied in head-to-head combat as one group's doubled damage is negated by the other's double health. In addition, if a combined army is well-mixed and the enemy units acquire targets at random, this is effectively identical to a uniform group of either. However, if a mixed army is able to put Defense Marines in front; the mixed army is more effective than a standard army; if the opponent can find a way to target Attack Marines first, the mixed army is less effective than a standard army and you should have gone with all one of the other.

Tanking, of course, very obviously present in Starcraft 1 as well as Starcraft 2. In Starcraft I dragoons tank for reavers and vultures tank for tanks; in Starcraft 2, roaches tank for hydras and zealots tank for colossi. However, there are many unit compositions without designated tanking units - for example, the Zerg in Starcraft I are an entire race of glass cannons with one major exception, the Ultralisk. In this case, zerglings are doing the tanking, but they are being supported by other glass cannon units - fragile mutalisks, massable hydras, or splashing lurkers. As another example, both zealots and dragoons pack a respectable punch as well as many hit points.

Anyway, where does this bring us?

Right, the Zergling. Perhaps surpassed only in damage output combined with fragility by the REEEEEEEBOOOOOOOOOO, and the bread-and-butter unit of the Swarm, the Zergling is one hell of a glass cannon. And they're good at what they do, destroying marines in open combat, and tearing through cannons like they're not even there. But this raises a question - why the hell are glass cannons front-line warriors? In Starcraft I, the first answer is easy - because everything in the Zerg army is a glass cannon, as I said before. Mutalisks and hydralisks pack a punch, and in fact properly positioned lurkers are even more of a glass cannon than even the zergling. (There is a second answer, and that's the fact that in mixed combat Zerg units really just dish out more damage pound for pound than their Protoss or Terran counterparts, which makes up for this; it's why avoiding the zerg flank is so important; and perhaps a third point, Zerg mobility makes up for this as well when the massive Protoss ball is frequently too strong to throw zerglings at head on. But this is a digression.) As the game progresses and critical masses of ranged units begin to render zerglings (and other melee units) at a disadvantageous position, hive tech gives the zergling is given a new lease on life through three awesome forces - adrenal glands (even more damage), ultralisks (the new meatshield for glass cannon zerglings), and defilers (rendering the glass part irrelevant.)

What of Starcraft II?

Simply put - roaches and zerglings do not go together. They hate each other. It's about as Attack-Marine in front Defense-Marine in back as you can get. More often, you'll see zerglings and mutalisks charging into combat together, or hardy roaches tanking for relatively more fragile hydralisks. Furthermore, in the late game, the zergling has nothing to compensate for the fact that they're really bad at engaging gigantic armies. Between the comparatively sturdy hydra-roach combo, and the ridiculously-hard-to-kill-with-anything-ground-based broodlord, there's not very much glass cannon behind the zerglings to back them up in their suicidal charges. They can still pull their weight early-game when it's viable to have nothing but zerglings, or nothing but zerglings, banelings, and mutas, but come late game they utterly vanish.

This is why the zerglings of Starcraft II cry themselves to sleep at night, with collective memories of the glory days, when minimally supported zerglings could level expansions and slaughter mispositioned armies with ease, running through their primitive, restless minds.
But why?
Knollercoaster
Profile Joined May 2010
United States6 Posts
May 01 2010 23:33 GMT
#308
I agree with absolutly every thing you said. I do believe that the changes to Zerg are better though. Zerg is still very powerful and can compete with the other two races.
tjoonz
Profile Joined May 2010
United States11 Posts
May 02 2010 18:42 GMT
#309
the protoss got colossus and mothership and terran got thor and vikings and zerg got.... a roast infestation.
fidey
Profile Joined May 2010
United States46 Posts
May 05 2010 00:54 GMT
#310
I have no idea if anyone already said it, but I will try to sum up what I think is the root of all evil in SC2.

Blizzard is trying to make a newer game off an old. This is fine, in fact they did it with Warcraft. But the difference between Warcraft and Starcraft are, most importantly, the stress in micro and macro, and their fanbase and community. The SC community is way more serious because BW was just about the most perfect RTS. But making a new game with a game valued as near perfect is a terrible idea.
I seem to notice that SC2 on the NA server seems to rely more on early game. Whether intentional or not, it's very obvious the lategame for all the races is very lacking. ie Thors sucking, Ultralisks sucking, Carriers and Motherships sucking. Although that is a bit harse and you'll have a different opinion, long macro game armies don't seem that diverse.
But this article is about Zerg, and although I'm a fairly new Protoss player, I think I see a few problems. More players are using roaches as tanks instead of zerglings (Which are rendered useless meat against the new Thor and Collosus and anything with splash). And while roaches are good tanks, they cannot be used with Zerglings. In fact, they can only be used by themselves or with Hydras. Zerglings can only be used by themselves or with Mutas. I've only seen ONE SC2 high level replay with Ultralisks and they died anyways.

I've read some of the pages, and they say that Zerg used to be a "mass frail but damage dealing units". In other words, mass glass cannons. I don't really see any glass cannons anymore.

To sum this all off:
Blizzard made a new game from an old. And the critics are a-bashin'.
SC2 seems to be more focused on early game.
T3 on all races (But especially Zerg) are not the "ultimate".
Zerg unit combinations that are sparse that are blamed by a mass rework of Zerg units
Roaches being incompatible with Zerglings unless it's a strong counter

This may seem pretty messy but hopefully I get my opinion in ^^


It is a lot like nature, you only have as many animals as the ecosystem can support and you only have as many friends as you can tolerate the bitching of
noSunset
Profile Joined May 2010
United States2 Posts
May 09 2010 23:21 GMT
#311
Guess we'll just have to wait and see what else they're going to do :X.


either way, this was a great post
哦好可惜, 象是场梦而已
M00nPie.Shield
Profile Joined May 2010
Peru3 Posts
May 10 2010 03:13 GMT
#312
awesome read!!! gw
En Taro Adun, Executor!
oN_Silva
Profile Joined October 2009
197 Posts
May 12 2010 16:51 GMT
#313
buff zerglings with + armor and + attack speed.

i remember a game, the protoss went void rays all in without probably defending his base. my hatch and queens died and my 2 mutas. so he had 1 void raid having to kill my 2 gas, hatch (he was doing that atm pool and muta tower) meanwhile i had like 12-15 zerglings in his undefended base.
i lost so bad it wasn't even a contest. what i remembered from brood war was that zerglings were unchallanged in taking down buildings etc, as their weak point is obviously their 35 hp. yet every build took really long.
muta's should be again given the possibility to shoot while flying, i agree

otherwise i must admit that i find zerg incredibly fun to play. I dont feel at all like they are dull or something, i find it exciting the many choices i have, way more then in broodwar i think. i can start with zerg zergling speed to harass, go banelings for bust, go roaches into roach hydra, can go ling into muta, spine crawler into muta, etc so many options (agree i was woundering many times why zerglings are so crap in big fights, they need buff so much!)
Rkie
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States1278 Posts
May 13 2010 00:53 GMT
#314
great read, but do you really think that b-/b is that bad?
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
May 13 2010 01:09 GMT
#315
On May 13 2010 09:53 Rkie wrote:
great read, but do you really think that b-/b is that bad?


Compared to good players, yes. It's totally arguable, but you get no leniency/weight in discussions just for being B-. No one cares if you're B-, you still can't win shit vs good players.
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
Iri
Profile Joined January 2010
150 Posts
May 14 2010 07:04 GMT
#316
And as of now, this is fixed, because roaches take too much food to be your only tank. Not sure I'm thrill about this, but it's a step in the right direction.
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Dokemion
Profile Joined May 2010
Philippines9 Posts
May 14 2010 08:50 GMT
#317
--- Nuked ---
Fizbin
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada202 Posts
May 15 2010 15:29 GMT
#318
On April 24 2010 21:42 imbecile wrote:
The fix occured to me in one of those Brood Lord OP threads.

Ultralisk needs a researchable energy or cooldown based ability like charge (not auto cast though), let's call it assault, that blows up formations and kicks around non-massive and non-sieged units in an AoE (but does minimal or no damage). They already have a physics engine, can be used to great effect there.

What this does is it gives zerglings more space to surround, and thus increased their damage output. But it also can be countered straightforward with micro. If we then have the attack rate of Brood Lords decreased, so the amount of broodlings stays managable unless you face like 6-7 Broodlords, the Ultralisk tanking ability becomes much more important again.

The overall effect on the game will be (as hoped):

* nice synergy of zergling/ultralisk (also because they share attack upgrade)
* since zerglings are kept around for longer, the opponents will have to be more carful with pumping immortals and marauders, making ultralisks more viable again too
* hive isn't just to get Brood Lords anymore, but offers actual choice

And anyone concerned about units getting kicked around: remember that force field kicks units around AND blocks path.


BUMP

lol that ultra ability would be pretty cool! good ideas
i hate having my ultras stuck behind lings even when u micro they only get a few attacks in till whatever they are fighting dies in front of them then the lings run ahead. and u gotta basicaly run ur lings around like they are retarded. would be cool if that charge pushed ur units and enemy out of the way too.
just the tip
Fizbin
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada202 Posts
May 15 2010 15:52 GMT
#319
On April 23 2010 06:54 ryanAnger wrote:
To be quite honest, despite the fact that I agree with the OP on most issues, Zerg is really quite what you make of it (as I would guess T and P are as well). Just because on paper hydra/roach is/seems unstoppable, I find myself straying as far away from that as I can.

I'm a top 10 plat at the moment, and I make decent use out of mass speedlings/banelings, mutas, and an infestor or two thrown in, quite well. Maybe it's just me, but I take satisfaction out of the fact that I can stray away from the norm and still compete without being so far behind..


ive been reading posts and seen a lot of complaining. so ive been trying to do what ur doing and use banelings and mutas more. i try'd around 10 games with banelings and i got rocked every time. not sure if is because im not getting baneling speed fast enough or my micro is lacking. and i find if u go muta they are only good for a brief time because they are so easy to counter. im rank 25 platinum. i've seen many pro replays with the use of banelings early game but i cant get it to work mutas arent what they used to be.
just the tip
klaymen
Profile Joined May 2010
1 Post
May 24 2010 02:38 GMT
#320
Maybe I'm missing something, but how does roach/hydra beat terran infantry + tank? I have lost much larger armies in terms of supply to terran infantry balls with well-managed tank support. IMO infestors or air units are almost indispensable against such an army. Roach/hydra is a strong, multipurpose ground army, but so is MMM, and neither one is un-counterable.
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