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Dustin Browder is the reason SC2 is boring. You guys remember when C&C was a huge competitive game with brick shitting moments because I don't.
You're absolutely right. Michael Morhaime put Dustin Browder in the commanding seat of the SC2 development, and he has proven a failure since the introduction of the mothership, and other "cool ultimate units that do terrible, terrible damage".
Let's face it, he came into this development with experience from EA and Command & Conquer 3. For those who played that game, you can see that it was developed by the same person who developed SC2. I'm a platinum Terran player in the beta, and I'm considering going back to SC1 and WC3 because SC2 is incredibly boring to play at this point..
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here is my brain fart:
adrenal glands gives + 100% attack speed (make cracklings a viable strat again)
ultras can step over small units/forcefields (atm they are SO big that they are disabled just by the fact that they cant get anywhere)
infestors upgrade tier 3 to allow spells to be cast while burrowed (sounds imba but easily countered once you know how they play out)
decrease infestor model size a lot! (atm they are just one big target making mind control POINTLESS)
nerf broodlords a lot (they are bs imba atm just because zerg have nothing else tier 3)
give roach high regen and armour again but much lower hp so (makes high damage units good counter, means that immortal doesn't need that ridiculous +30 to armoured).
what you guys think?
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Let's face it, he came into this development with experience from EA and Command & Conquer 3. For those who played that game, you can see that it was developed by the same person who developed SC2.
I bet no one would have noticed without official information about his work...
Personally i think the overall expectations for Starcraft 2 are so high that there has to be some sort of disappointment. The only reasons why it's so boring right now, is because people start to get the hang out of the basics and think they know it all. If we tried to explore the tricks and exploits of sc2 with the same amount of excitement that people have put into previous games, there won't be no boredom.
That's also the reason why I don't like the current trend of Zergplayers, saying they have to go roach hydra and there is nothing else. There is so much potential in Mutabuilds, the Nydusworm although nerfed, is still very very strong, Banelings, Infestors and Corrupters aren't used to their full potential yet, hell, even the Ultralisk (of course weak in comparison to the Broodlord right now) will find it's place as soon as blizzard adds more maps with wider terrain.
Just stop crying, get unto Bnet and try to make it work! That is what made Broodwar what it is today and not some fancy patchnotes.
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hahaha @ Turbo.Tactics... do you think that zerg players just read up on forums for the best builds and stick to them? no my friend, we have all tried and continue to try as many tactics and combination's that we can. we (zerg players) would like nothing more than to break away from the roach hydra build and we try all the time but you know what? we loose. the mmm and toss sentry/immortal ball of deaths just steam roll any other tactic. so please, give us some credit. play zerg and see how pointless the other strats are. once you played 100 games trying all sorts of tactics and seeing that the roach/hydra one is the only one that gives you a consistent chance of winning come back and post. and you know what, you will be complaining along with us.
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From an observers point of view I can only say that Zerg are rather boring, because the units look too much "the same". If you have a big battle between two Roach / Hydra armies you wont notice which of them belong to which player, because the team colors are not visible on them. Every model has not enough space for that AND the close and clustered armies cover that up really well. In the end you have "lots of brown sauce" fighting "more brown sauce" ... on top of some darkish gray background.
Another thing is that the units themselves are looking too realistic and are not distiguishable enough. In Brood War the Terrans had Marine, Firebat and Medic as infantry. Each of them had their own distinct color. In SC2 there are Marine, Marauder and Ghost and all of them are a somewhat grayish color, although the Marauder is a bit bigger and darker than the Marine and the Ghost carries a long rifle. Those three types are much harder to distinguish for a spectators eye than the ones in Brood War. The whole Zerg race is made up of organic lifeforms, but in Brood War there was no unit which had a "similar look" to another unit. Zerglings were easily distinguishable from Hydras, Hydras looked different from Lurkers and so on. In SC2 however the two "main Zerg units" are somewhat equal in their looks and size, so they are "somewhat the same" and harder to distinguish again. So the realistic looks kill some of the ease with which viewers can see what is happening.
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My postcount has nothing to do with my sc2 experience... and I do play zerg for about 500 games now. I know it seems that Roach/Hydra is the easiest to play at the moment but thats about it.
Credit to Dimaga for the Banelingbust and Idra for a rocksolid Roach/Hydra! I just hope there is more to come...
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Excellent post, I especially would like to add my voice to the argument that hive tech is not worth it.
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OP is brilliant. Zerglings need to regain their old attack speed.
My favorite thing about the Zerg in the original was finding ways to distract with Hydralisks as my mass of Zerglings swooped in from right behind them to quickly kill everything. Then, late game, using Dark Swarm to push Cracklings into any base situation was even more fun. As i see it, if Marines and Zealots can better in SC2, then why can't Zerglings also be a little better (albeit due to the better unit movement)?
While recovering a powerful Zergling, I wouldn't mind seeing the Roach's attack speed reduced and some of its old healing rates returned (not as OP as before, but it's non-existent right now). That would give the Roach a more unique role.
I had hoped Blizzard was going to use the last few patches to scale the Roach down to a unit that would cost less and do far, far less DPS (though retain a high damage amount per attack to keep it a high priority target) with some sizable reduction to the healing. Instead, in those patches, we got the same unit that was oversimplifying the game in all the ways it was before, only now there's virtually nothing left that could ever be unique about it. It's simply a Hydralisk to get before Hydralisks. Its healing, which certainly needed a nerf before, doesn't even exist now, and the only thing unique about it anymore is its high HP (and even that doesn't matter when facing its late-game counters like the Colossus). (I suppose it's neat how it can sneak around while burrowed, but that doesn't feel super unique to me like the healing did.)
On April 22 2010 02:30 zomgzergrush wrote:
Ultras = useless thanks to TERRIBLE TERRIBLE damage from the stupid "number countering" system. Armor no longer means shit as all you have to ever do for any armored unit is to make an anti armor unit, be it: immortal, maurader, or OH WAIT, ZERG DONT HAVE AN ARMOR COUNTERING UNIT.
LOL
The number countering system is pretty boring for anybody like me who is obsessively appreciates elegant game systems. However, it still could be used to make a fun game; it didn't need to have the affect you speak of. Blizzard just went too far with it if you ask me. What should have been +1 or +2 bonuses actually go way beyond that.
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Good article.
While the community doesn't have as much insight in the game workings as Blizzard does, I truly hope that Blizzard will watch Forums/Sites like TL and give opinions like this one a good thought, including the viewability and playability of a race.
Just because a race isn't "broken" it can still be no fun to play with, or boring to watch, which in my eyes equally destroys the game.
I really do wonder though how much blizzard is giving weight to the e-Sports community. The more money they see in it, the higher the probability that they will make the game to our liking, right?
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I hope blizzard reads this, but again I hope they take all this with a grain of salt. They know the game 10x better than any of us and I don't see anyone here doing art design or game balance.
SC1 was 10 years of gaming and changes. SC2 beta has months, so you could say it's 1/100th of the way there...
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On April 21 2010 21:53 Seijuro wrote:
seriously, im not someone whos shouting out "game is unbalanced" or.. "imba" etc.. i never did in wc3 or bw.. its all about the skill of the players who are facing each other, but seriously..
zerg isnt finished yet, as IrVeNoJu just said...
im not saying zerg is weak, but cmon....
1) Zerg NEEDS anti air on t1...(and i dont want anyone to say: u got queen/tower or shit like that, its ridiculous how terra/toss can own u within seconds if u aint got a few hydras out just in time..
what about those banshees? wtf is this? that damage is ridiculous, way too strong.. and that range..cmon
or those vikings can fuck you up really hard as well..
and sorry to add this, but... marauder+thor combo = really strong ._.
2) Zerg got no "real" way to scout..
oh yea cmon, u cant get in any base if ur not playing against a total noob, so theres no way to scout for you, and if u actually manage to scout with an overlord, its way too late and u'll lose that overlord, terra+toss back again with their nice scout..
3) i want luuuurkers back o.o =)
4) what is wrong with those mutas? aint of any use, only in zvz and even there its pretty rare
5) whats the use of broodlords or ultras, aint using them anyway, and really expensive..only unit really being used are zerglings, roaches and hydras..
6) we need a caster.. an useful one.. as in bw
and some general problems:
a) theres 0 micro in this game...
b) if theres a big fight, u cant just kill some workers off of ur enemy, cuz it says "ur drones are being attacked" and not just "ur under attack"... its made way too simple
c) games are over way too fast................ one of the reasons u aint getting any broodlords or ultras, it almost never happens that u'll manage to get into late game
yea, it may all sounds really noobish and it may look like im crying xD but.. i've just had to get it off my chest
and i know, zerg isnt weak, but.. its lacking a few things, it isnt finished yet..
and im not still a bronze player having general problems with this game, im a platinum zerg and its getting worse and worse every day.. people there are pretty ok, but.. still i wouldnt say they are so much better than me, its just SO hard against especially terra
no, seriously do you know wtf you're talking about.
The 2 more prominent indications you don't are you say broodlords suck (when the other 99.9% of the population says theyre way overpowered) and that you think infestors arent good.
Oh and of course that you think mutas suck when every other protoss complains about them to the death
Before you ask me a rhetorical question: yes I have a beta key.
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Great article. I agree and disagree.
The problem with Zerg stems primarily from Roaches. Take a ZvZ for example. The counter to Roaches is Roaches. This has changed slightly with the armor nerf.. as banelings are a slightly viable solution... but generally speaking... Roaches counter Roaches best. Hydras or Mutes don't even counter roaches early game. There is no reward for teching. If you tech to Hydras or Mutes while the other player just spams Roaches... you lose. Mutes can't kill Roaches fast enough.. and only critical mass hydras are effective against Roaches. ZvZ as a result... sucks. I've had some great ZvZ's... but primarily because the other player and myself essentially decide to not go for a roach game.
One thing people are forgetting are the intense power of infestors. INFESTORS ARE THE NEW DEFILER. If a terran army is balled up and coming at you... if you can get 3 goos off on them... by the time they get to your army your units will SHRED them... even your speed/cracklings. I agree the Infestor needs to become smaller in size (they are too targetable), and that T3 should unlock an ability to cast spells while burrowed... but even so... these things are wrecking balls if used right. I've destroyed armies of vikings with Infestors alone.
Banelings are the new Lurker. However... as they are a suicide unit.. it is very hard to find the right balance between what works and what is cost effective. With speed upgrades and melee upgrades.. the things are wrecking balls... but I also still believe that they NEED a T3 option to move while burrowed.
As for the rest... I think Zerg is on its way to being pretty balanced. Most of the units need some work.. but I think it's well on its way to being pretty damned good.
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I'm sticking to zerg after this topic. Haven't played beta yet but you convinced me to stay 
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Great read!
I'm totally staying zerg in SC2:D
aww the ultra vs 798ling clip made me cry though
great job again:D
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On April 22 2010 19:26 Perfect Balance wrote:Show nested quote +Dustin Browder is the reason SC2 is boring. You guys remember when C&C was a huge competitive game with brick shitting moments because I don't. You're absolutely right. Michael Morhaime put Dustin Browder in the commanding seat of the SC2 development, and he has proven a failure since the introduction of the mothership, and other "cool ultimate units that do terrible, terrible damage". Let's face it, he came into this development with experience from EA and Command & Conquer 3. For those who played that game, you can see that it was developed by the same person who developed SC2. I'm a platinum Terran player in the beta, and I'm considering going back to SC1 and WC3 because SC2 is incredibly boring to play at this point..
only problem being that dustin browder left EA long before CnC 3 came out lol
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I do hate that it has become Ranged Blob Wars, but the game is turning out to be pretty good. Now we need to see more harassment units. Seems like terran got all of them (reaper rush, hellion run-by, tank drops, banshee rush, raven missile). Protoss still has DTs, though scan is more accessible making DTs harder to use. Colossi fill the roll of the reaver from a combat perspective, but not really a harassment perspective. And storm is shit now, good luck using that for anything. But worst of all is zerg. Dumbed down mutas? Thanks. Banelings can be amazing for harassment if you can run them by. Am I missing any viable, platinum-level harassment strategy? Zerg really did get the shaft
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On April 21 2010 21:53 Seijuro wrote:
seriously, im not someone whos shouting out "game is unbalanced" or.. "imba" etc.. i never did in wc3 or bw.. its all about the skill of the players who are facing each other, but seriously..
zerg isnt finished yet, as IrVeNoJu just said...
im not saying zerg is weak, but cmon....
1) Zerg NEEDS anti air on t1...(and i dont want anyone to say: u got queen/tower or shit like that, its ridiculous how terra/toss can own u within seconds if u aint got a few hydras out just in time..
what about those banshees? wtf is this? that damage is ridiculous, way too strong.. and that range..cmon
or those vikings can fuck you up really hard as well..
and sorry to add this, but... marauder+thor combo = really strong ._.
2) Zerg got no "real" way to scout..
oh yea cmon, u cant get in any base if ur not playing against a total noob, so theres no way to scout for you, and if u actually manage to scout with an overlord, its way too late and u'll lose that overlord, terra+toss back again with their nice scout..
3) i want luuuurkers back o.o =)
4) what is wrong with those mutas? aint of any use, only in zvz and even there its pretty rare
5) whats the use of broodlords or ultras, aint using them anyway, and really expensive..only unit really being used are zerglings, roaches and hydras..
6) we need a caster.. an useful one.. as in bw
and some general problems:
a) theres 0 micro in this game...
b) if theres a big fight, u cant just kill some workers off of ur enemy, cuz it says "ur drones are being attacked" and not just "ur under attack"... its made way too simple
c) games are over way too fast................ one of the reasons u aint getting any broodlords or ultras, it almost never happens that u'll manage to get into late game
yea, it may all sounds really noobish and it may look like im crying xD but.. i've just had to get it off my chest
and i know, zerg isnt weak, but.. its lacking a few things, it isnt finished yet..
and im not still a bronze player having general problems with this game, im a platinum zerg and its getting worse and worse every day.. people there are pretty ok, but.. still i wouldnt say they are so much better than me, its just SO hard against especially terra
no, seriously do you know wtf you're talking about.
The 2 more prominent indications you don't are you say broodlords suck (when the other 99.9% of the population says theyre way overpowered) and that you think infestors arent good.
Oh and of course that you think mutas suck when every other protoss complains about them to the death
Before you ask me a rhetorical question: yes I have a beta key.
Thanks SubtleArt! I was starting to question my own beliefs because nobody seemed to have read this post except me....
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On April 22 2010 20:41 snpnx wrote:
While the community doesn't have as much insight in the game workings as Blizzard does
On April 22 2010 22:04 Sent wrote:
They know the game 10x better than any of us and I don't see anyone here doing art design or game balance.
I take issue with these statements. There have been many instances when the community has been way ahead of Blizzard and with much better insight. The macro mechanics being one example.
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After reading this, I've been swayed to the side of "the zerg is boring." I guess I just never really realized that my entire game plan has been how to effectively get to hydra roach.
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To be quite honest, despite the fact that I agree with the OP on most issues, Zerg is really quite what you make of it (as I would guess T and P are as well). Just because on paper hydra/roach is/seems unstoppable, I find myself straying as far away from that as I can.
I'm a top 10 plat at the moment, and I make decent use out of mass speedlings/banelings, mutas, and an infestor or two thrown in, quite well. Maybe it's just me, but I take satisfaction out of the fact that I can stray away from the norm and still compete without being so far behind.
As much as I hate to make the comparison, those of you who play/played WoW knows that for every class there is an optimal "cookie cutter" spec. I think many people who play SC2 seem to have that mindset as well, and while it may apply to a game like WoW, there are just so many more possibilities in an RTS as (potentially) deep as SC2.
I think we just need to keep our heads high, not be so outrageously demanding, and allow Zerg, and StarCraft 2, time to show it's true colors.
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EPT
