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On January 15 2009 16:57 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Caller, looking at the detail people have taken into interpreting clues, the town overall is horrible at it.
Game 2 had plexa, cam, mtf and ace,
game 3 had me, nightmare, mikey, mynock and possibly one other? In that game however nightmare mainly just vigi'd who we told him to, and mikey used his powers to investigate/kill.
game 4 uncertain as i died first night
game 5 was mine and town was mollested by retarded town(the few people who could analyze clues were totally ignored the whole way through as most of the mafia had been analyzed but the analysis ignored)
and callers current game the town is jsut terrible at it, as all the main analyzers are a) dead or b) not playing.
nice to know i'm at least partially not responsible ^^
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On January 15 2009 16:57 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 16:56 LTT wrote:
An idea that I've been toying with to encourage activity is to dilute every blue role a bit, and then giving everyone a role. These games are fun but they are susceptible to mass roleclaims. To prevent this, make it a closed game like Callers, where the total number of each role is unknown. There could be 3 detectives but 0 veterans. For balance reasons, this game would probably need to be smaller as well.
Detectives are important in any game to start organization of the town. Unfortunately, blind rolechecks make the game unfair to any big name player who happens to be a mafia member. To combat this, I propose the following:
Role Finder - A DT may pm the game master (GM) a role and a positive integer. The GM will respond with a "random" player who has that role. The DT may only choose from townie roles. You may only use this ability X times. If you choose a role that no one has, you will be informed but this ability will still count as being used.
Note: For "random", an algorithm will be used. The algorithm will be given after the game to ensure that the GM didn't influence the game by choosing whatever he/she wished, but it is complicated enough that players will not be able to figure it out and influence the outcome. I've got a few ideas in mind that I can give to the GM to use for this.
This ability dilutes the ability for DTs to randomly find mafia, but doesn't stop them from organizing early. Give them Clue Checks and Vote checks to help find mafia and to force the mafia to be smart about their voting. Like i said, random amount of blues is actually BAD for the town. and if everyone has a role, it's the same as everyone being green but they get to feel special about themselves. if everyone is special, that just means no one is.
It isn't about being special or not. It's about giving them something to do. People who join and hope to get a power, then go inactive when they get green, will have an ability that they can choose to use or not. It especially makes them more active early in the game, when clue analysis isn't as viable.
Edit: Forgot a word.
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On January 15 2009 17:01 LTT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 16:57 chaoser wrote:On January 15 2009 16:56 LTT wrote:
An idea that I've been toying with to encourage activity is to dilute every blue role a bit, and then giving everyone a role. These games are fun but they are susceptible to mass roleclaims. To prevent this, make it a closed game like Callers, where the total number of each role is unknown. There could be 3 detectives but 0 veterans. For balance reasons, this game would probably need to be smaller as well.
Detectives are important in any game to start organization of the town. Unfortunately, blind rolechecks make the game unfair to any big name player who happens to be a mafia member. To combat this, I propose the following:
Role Finder - A DT may pm the game master (GM) a role and a positive integer. The GM will respond with a "random" player who has that role. The DT may only choose from townie roles. You may only use this ability X times. If you choose a role that no one has, you will be informed but this ability will still count as being used.
Note: For "random", an algorithm will be used. The algorithm will be given after the game to ensure that the GM didn't influence the game by choosing whatever he/she wished, but it is complicated enough that players will not be able to figure it out and influence the outcome. I've got a few ideas in mind that I can give to the GM to use for this.
This ability dilutes the ability for DTs to randomly find mafia, but doesn't stop them from organizing early. Give them Clue Checks and Vote checks to help find mafia and to force the mafia to be smart about their voting. Like i said, random amount of blues is actually BAD for the town. and if everyone has a role, it's the same as everyone being green but they get to feel special about themselves. if everyone is special, that just means no one is. It isn't about being special or not. It's about giving them something to do. People who join and hope to get a power, then go inactive when they get green, will have an ability that they can choose to use or not. It makes them more active early in the game, especially early when clue analysis isn't as viable. Edit: Forgot a word.
This is great as an idea I'm aware but creates for imbalance or general hatred. I can honestly say I hated getting the role of Village Idiot. Had lynching meant the game had ended however, and only I could win, the role would have been alot more challenging to play, and would promote acting like a mole or the like. If you want everyone to have a power you have to set it up that no particular role is decent, but combinations getting together can meet a specific role.
Ie have instead of a detective have 2-3 diff roles of a cop for instance where each one has one specific power a DT normally has, with 1-2 uses each or the like. and spread out 1 blue role that way, but even then I doubt that would promote much activity as most people mainly want to be mafia.
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On January 15 2009 16:59 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 16:57 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Caller, looking at the detail people have taken into interpreting clues, the town overall is horrible at it.
Game 2 had plexa, cam, mtf and ace,
game 3 had me, nightmare, mikey, mynock and possibly one other? In that game however nightmare mainly just vigi'd who we told him to, and mikey used his powers to investigate/kill.
game 4 uncertain as i died first night
game 5 was mine and town was mollested by retarded town(the few people who could analyze clues were totally ignored the whole way through as most of the mafia had been analyzed but the analysis ignored)
and callers current game the town is jsut terrible at it, as all the main analyzers are a) dead or b) not playing. nice to know i'm at least partially not responsible ^^
Caller as I have your red list, i can honestly say although your clues are infuriating to read, with 2-3 days worth it is fairly clear who some are. behavioral analysis snags a few more etc....
Your clues honestly would piss the hell out of me as I like to analyze clues, and with the way the town operates atm anyway that work would go to waste if I didn't have a name recognized generally on the forum.
Anyway, I'm off to bed, i will read any replies in the morning when im up and respond to as many as possible. Then will be back later tommorrow night.
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My thoughts:
1- Let the time do their work: this game was a little rushed by caller, BC asked for at least a 3/4 day to rest and prepare next game yet caller insisted. I think a "break time" should be called for like 1/2 weeks" to keep the game interesting.
2- No more new roles without discuss from the players. Silencer, VI, convertion, sandock, they all sucked because they were introduced by 1 person. Lets try to stay with the basics= dts, vet, medic, vigi. 1 or 2 special mafia.
3- Less and less blues, if someone wants to play then he has to play like green. Mafia is a derivative from "in real" mafia game and normally theres only 1 dt. Blue aristocracy makes the game boring to greens, and that leads to inactivity.
4- Forget about post count!! Forget about post count!! i mean thats not the important: some players may want to hide by not posting and thats ok. Force voting: thats the only thing that matters, i mean: now mafia can hide because they are not forced to show up not because they dont post. I propose a rule like this: first time skiping the lynch: a warning, if a player doesnt vote for 2 a second time without telling the GM (with a reason before hand) he gets modkilled, plain and simple. If someone skips 3 lynch for whatever reason (with or without justification) then modkill too: i mean if someone cant log in for a 2 minute issue then dont play.
5- how do we deal with first day dt roleclaim: you dont, its a part of the game. If a dt sacrifices like that then he has to convince the town. Also note that with less blues then the move comes really bad as your sacrificing a valuable rol. I think that should not be an issue, some people think its a stupid move, others think its a good. Id try them myself (for the 3 cases: green, blue and red) yet as i said its part of the game, normally i dont say its that bad because this is the only way to keep the game going first day: its like chess white makes the first move but here you dont know wich side is white nor if the first move was the best in this game.
6- Estimated number of people to make it interesting: 30 can grow up if more people show interest. Lists of inactives and actives players (basic activity: vote everyday).
7- Analisis is good, strategy too. And key players are what they are SIMPLY because there are almost no other players. In a better shaped game with more actives the number of "omg im a key player" decrease.
8- Full random roles (gms please you know what im talking about).
9- A day schedule: blocks of 12+12 "real hours". Most of us live a normal life and cant keep reading a thread all the day, But if the game is more rigid on timing then its easier to find 15 minutes to make an action.
10- And full ban to inactives/annoyers.
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Well, I am going to have a lot of input on this later, but I am tired for now and need to sleep. So I expect to be posting something massive and detailed tomorrow.
For now, I am trying to think of ways to get rid of the annoying fucking role calling like in Mafia 3 with Folca and a select few other games.
A thought I had was make the DTs able to role check day or night, however until Night 2, reds don't show up. Red=green green=green blue=blue until night 2, this can be altered. This encourages people to not use their role checks prematurely, they give less information, while you could find another blue to work with, if you get green it can be mafia or townie. So you have to wait to get the most info out of your role check, then act accordingly. I think that would limit day one role calling in order to establish circles, etc.
I remember I had a lot of ideas on DT balancing, I didn't like the insane DT concept, I am tired right now and will try to elaborate more tomorrow.
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I am attempting hard to get plexa back.
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United States2186 Posts
Jeez this thread is active. I like!
I agree with BC that there should be at least a short break. I imagine it will take some time to figure out in this thread how we should do things so I think that issue will take care of itself.
Kuja I already made this thread and I will be doing all the inactive weeding along with whoever hosts unless anyone wants to lend me a hand (not really that needed my memory is great and I have all the games memorized more or less). The issue with inactives is, where to cut the line and how to pre-emptively prevent anything (i,e less new roles, less posts or something)?
I still think we should let new people in however there needs to be some kind of criteria for letting them in. I was thinking of making it a requirement that any person without a proven track record needs to analyze one previous game and write up how the game ended as it did. Seems silly but can gauge their interest level. Thoughts?
Clarifications (putting this in OP):
The veteran players dying early is of less concern than the issue of blues dying. It's just there needs to be more gametime where the veteran players have to live so the town isn't in this position of 'hey whatta we do now guys someone tell me!!11!' This is honestly a tough issue (along with the below) and imo some of the biggest problems.
The real problem is that if mafia has just one player who is very good at behavior analysis and can figure out the blues just based on posts/votes, the mafia can essentially win the game on this sole factor. But if you bump up the blue numbers to combat this, then a mafia team who lacks those players gets completely screwed (i,e mafia 3). In the first two games this wasn't an issue nor was it in game 6 but in the other 3 I felt that a lot of the game was decided based upon the mafia's success in rooting out blues early, and frankly, it's pretty dumb.
Caller I like your idea a lot on this:
Caller said:Another option could be to randomize mafia hits. Give mafia a list of 10 people, then randomly pick 5 people to die out of that list. The RL rationale could be "x person was visiting a relative so we couldn't hit him, go down the list" or something like that. This way we can delay the rapid death of strong players very quickly.
This solves both of these problems quite handily; the luck factor is annoying yes but there's always some form of luck involved (generally a lot heh).
Limiting post count should already happen with a smaller game, but I do wonder if it could be further helped. I have forgotten about this because my reading speed makes catching up not an issue. Is it worth it to make some kind of rule system to limit posts? Or should we just indirectly do this by limiting game size? Voting should absolutely definitely be required though. With a smaller game we will have enough stragglers to be subbed in if someone ducks out.
As for clues: I personally hate them and think they are pointless outside of large games (50+) where the town needs some kind of help to sort through huge numbers of mafia. This is partially because I play a lot of IRL mafia where they don't exist, and the other issue is that with clues is that unlike behavior/voting records they can be interpreted any which way and if substantial analysis is done like in mafia 2 (which should be required or they become too easy) it can really bloat the thread up with frankly pretty stupid arguments at times.
The blue question:
I think that it's been proven pretty strongly now that if the mafia know what they're doing the whole 'hai guyz lets form an inner circle of blues!!' gets raped (in a non-mayor game) and the godfather who can roleclaim blue also works well with this. I do agree that we should be implementing mechanisms that encourage open participation rather than mass pm'ing. I think a lot revolves around how the DTs are made though.
Viable role list:
I am okay with votelists so long as there is some kind of uncertainty factor. I,e Godfather(s), insane DTs, or millers. The problem I had with them unrestricted is that it KILLS the mafia lategame, as suddenly that 2/10 list is now 2/4. Mafia already have it tough because online mafia gives the town so much evidence to go through that the mafia have to be very slippery in covering their tracks, clues, and votelists just add fuel to the fire.
RoL's DT idea is good as well if we implement this with Caller's idea on randomizing mafia kills. Insane DTs are also a feasible option though, as is Incognito's idea of letting DTs only use their powers at night like everyone else.
RoL said: thought I had was make the DTs able to role check day or night, however until Night 2, reds don't show up. Red=green green=green blue=blue until night 2, this can be altered. This encourages people to not use their role checks prematurely, they give less information, while you could find another blue to work with, if you get green it can be mafia or townie. So you have to wait to get the most info out of your role check, then act accordingly. I think that would limit day one role calling in order to establish circles, etc.
LTT's role finder ability also works:
LTT said:Role Finder - A DT may pm the game master (GM) a role and a positive integer. The GM will respond with a "random" player who has that role. The DT may only choose from townie roles. You may only use this ability X times. If you choose a role that no one has, you will be informed but this ability will still count as being used.
I am hesitant to go with the mass blues plan though. Imo this will cause a lot of confusion and just like in Mafia 4 people will go afk or become apathetic because there is too much stuff being thrown out at once.
Staples: Medic/DT/Vet/Vigi
Other good roles: Godfather (no conversions). The Godfather should be able to be seen as a proactive blue role (i,e not a vet).
Jacks are potentially good (very cool concept) but at the same time they are too extreme. I,e if the jack lives like MM in mafia 3 they just tear things up but if they die early (like scaramanga in mafia 6) then the town takes a major blow (this is because there must be a smaller number of them because they are so good; losing one really hurts). Imo remove.
Mad Hatters are stupid and have really never served much of a purpose.
Silencer is cool in IRL games but online I don't like it at all. It hurts activity because the outspoken guy that leads the game always gets silenced -> people don't care as much etc.
Suicide Bomber/Martyr go together. If bomber is in martyr must be in but imo if they aren't then neither should be. Bomber should definitely never be able to be used outside of night though. They do provide some good parts to the game...not sure this is pretty open ended I think.
Any other roles to consider?
As for online vs IRL mafia, there's one important thing to mention.
My IRL mafia is played with no role reveal upon death. This makes the game VERY interesting and one option I would really consider putting in after we get a successful game or two under our belts (too big of a concept switch for this upcoming game imo).
And I agree that we should be making every attempt to get all the past mafia vets who died off (plexa mtf ltt l empyrean etc) to play!
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On January 15 2009 16:37 malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 16:33 Kuja900 wrote:
Ver do you have any intention in assisting BC with the next game? Do you have any intention in playing next mafia game? LOL
lol yeah i got some sand up my crevice after the game restarted after i already contacted load of people and set up irc ect to go from blue>towny role, im playing next round.
ps- i love you ver
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Sydney2287 Posts
On January 15 2009 16:56 LTT wrote:
This ability dilutes the ability for DTs to randomly find mafia, but doesn't stop them from organizing early. Give them Clue Checks and Vote checks to help find mafia and to force the mafia to be smart about their voting.
In mafia 2 we did a lot of work with balancing voting to make votechecks as ineffectual as possible. Of course we still got caught out, but I think mafia 2 the main factor was interpretation of clues by players such as Plexa MTF and camlito more than votechecks. Having to worry about what lists the town might have and if we killed people in those lists and how many we know that they know weren't mafia in lists made it sufficiently difficult to keep us pretty interested.
I have more thoughts on roles etc but I have to sort through them so that they're transferrable to paper. I'll post again tomorrow.
EDIT: Please no conversions.
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Agreed with bockit. (also ver)
Tomorrow i will have more to say on the matters, as i am busy today ^^.
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I actually like LTT's idea in place of mine. I think Role Finder would be a better power then role check. Role Finder doesn't allow sometime to go "well Ver was strong last game, let me check him" then mafia role claim based off of that. It also takes away from the mafia ability to fake it. However I think a good balance to this would be to introduce the capo with the a role check ability.
The Capo is essentially a mafia with a DT power of role checking, I think if we include that, it would make the town be less trustworthy in the beginning. Combine that with the Role Finder, it can be very deadly. It gives the mafia a way to infiltrate, and makes special roles less willing to give information.
I am kind of drawing a blank on the ability use count for this though, I think depending on the DT count. I really hate the insane DT concept, and I like the Role Finder as opposed to Role Check to keep from day 1 role calling homosexuality. I feel like we should talk of the Capo and a role check being introduced, since it can be a POWERFUL mafia asset. However I don't know if this will create an unbalanced level of trust issues with the town. Last game had way too much uncertainties which made it hard for anyone to work together, or trust anyone else.
I think we need a balance between town trust and town paranoia. I think if we discuss a DT with Role Finder and a Capo with Role Check, and how to balance it we could find a very interesting game on our hands.
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I think one major factor which promotes inactivity is the number of players. The more players there are, the longer the game will go on. The longer the game goes on, the more inactivity shows up. I remember in BC's game Mynock and I were sitting there trying to do clue interpretation on our own because NOBODY posted after Ace got silenced. I think the problem is that people tend to lose interest. Therefore, I think the game should be limited to 30 people at the most just to keep the game shorter. A set timeline would also be nice (ie tell the thread exactly the schedule within +/- an hour or two about when day/night will end and stick to it barring real life showing up).
Please no mayor. Mayor promotes so much secrecy and can make the game VERY boring for anyone who isn't in that town circle. Taking this a step further, there is a very good reason that blues are trying to do things with a small circle. The suicide bomber. The problem with coming out in the open early is that the suicide bomber will just take them out and might take the medics with them. This forces blues with more information to try and communicate through mouths so they can continue to use their abilities without getting killed outright.
More on activity: Less blues. I always found that I am less inclined to talk if I have a blue role because I know that if I get hit, the town loses a big asset. More greens should mean that more people who are inclined to talk will be able to. This will also let the blues come out of the woodwork. Also, people won't feel so bad that they didn't get a role if they know that half the roles are green (I hope, after getting a lot of hiding roles, I actually want a green role/ vet just so I can talk in the thread - talking through mouths really sucks).
I like the randomized hit list. I think we should take it a step further though and have 1 person on the list per mafia. Each mafia must individually put in their hit. If a mafia fails to do so, either a random hit goes in or the mafia lose that hit? I don't know exactly how to balance this one. Also, if the hit goes through, the person assigned to that hit has a clue pointing to them show up. I don't like the mafia's ability to "hide from clues/protect from meth dealer" certain mafiosos. It gives a little more strategy to the mafia roles, but how likely do you think it was that any of the clues in Caller's game point to the godfather? (I honestly don't know, but it seems very unlikely, especially before he uses his conversion attempts)
I also don't mind the veteran players dying early on. I think it gives the newer players a chance to distinguish themselves. If the veterans really have a problem with it, they can always play under an aka (if the mods will allow it).
Remember that I am one of the people who did the DT roleclaim day 1 thing. The reason that I did it is because otherwise day 1 is just a random lynch. It is unlikely that a clue will be found linking to a mafia. What I suggest is that the person who runs the game puts out a list of like 6 people, one of which is mafia (mafia gets to choose who goes on the list, this might need to be balanced). This is a day 1 thing only but it gives the town a chance for some direction. Then scale back the DT to compensate.
I don't like the role finder ability. It seems too easy to form townie circles with an ability like that, even with a reduced number of blues. I either insane DTs with infinite rolechecks or RoL's idea.
I like the capo. This also allows the mafia to infiltrate circles easier, which makes it even more important for the town to be careful. However, even if the DTs get infinite rolechecks, I don't think the capo should. Late game rolechecks for the mafia are too strong when they win if they dodge all of the veterans/hatters/meth dealers.
One way to compensate for unknown role numbers is to have each role type know how many of them there are (ie vigis know there are 3 vigis, medics know there are 4 medics, etc). That way role numbers COULD be kept secret but also could be leaked.
I think that we should go a step further than just modkilling anyone who didn't vote. I think we should also modkill anyone who didn't post in the thread each day/night cycle. (And I mean a real post, not just "I posted in the thread lolz dont modkill me!") It's kinda a harsh way to force activity, but people who can't do something like that probably shouldn't be playing to begin with.
I don't think much can be done about the cheating. It happens and it sucks. Players who get caught doing it should be modkilled immediately (if playing and alive) and banned from future games.
I think Jacks can be balanced if you either limit the number of times you can use any ability for a certain role or take away their DT powers (or both). So how this might work is a jack could not use DT, could use vigi 1 time, medic 2 times, vet 2 times. Something like that.
Wow long post for me. Hopefully everything makes sense.
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look, really... just let chuiu host. i pmed him two months ago and he's been wanting to start a game but someone else keeps starting. i'm not trying to hate on everyone else's games, and there have been plenty of good contributions/ideas implemented in these games, but chuiu has the following qualities that make him a good host:
1.) Experience: he was the first to host a mafia game on TL, and through repeated iterations has a good grasp of what works and what doesn't. One can argue for/against certain aspects of his games, but that's possible for any host. Chuiu has a trial-and-error understanding relative to the TL playing pool, and his formula works.
2.) Simplicity: One could argue that Chuiu's games are relatively boring by design -- they lack intricate player abilities or the complexity of say a godfather/dual-mafia game. However, because they are simpler, they are easier to administer, and by the third game -- Ace's early demise notwithstanding -- Chuiu's game had become streamlined and efficient. And honestly, cool abilities can make things more exciting temporarily, but a consistent game engine that keeps players involved allows for more intense player participation, which is ultimately what mafia is all about.
3.) Polish: writing is always subjective, and it's hard to say someone's better than another. But I find Chuiu's writing to be concise, articulate, and consistently interesting. Over the course of a long game of Mafia, it's much easier to keep the game active with consistently good writing than erratic spurts of quality, something some of the other hosts have been guilty of. Plus, best TL Mafia/Day/Night banners hands down.
4.) Timing between games: there have been way too many mafia games crammed together within the last few months, and what used to be a highly anticipated event is becoming just another tired "thing". When Chuiu was the host, there was a definite and much-needed break between games, since the host as well as the players were tired.
Plus, with so many different hosts with varying degrees of creativity/effort/diligence, it's hard to know exactly what you're going to get into by signing up for a mafia game. I've been wanting to sign a game since Game 3, but I just don't trust the other games... not just because of the hosts, but because of the player pool, their ability to understand/implement the new rules/abilities, and other uncontrollable variables. For the reasons listed above, I hope that other aspiring hosts will take a break for a bit and let TL Mafia return to its original creator.
in other words: i feel a consistent, experienced host allows for a better game, regardless of special abilities, because Mafia is supposed to be about player interaction first and foremost. Everything else is just extra.
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whatever we do with respect to the actual rules executed in the new game, can we just please
take a goddamn break
before starting a new mafia game?
Thank you. 
oh and to be fair, if you're counting caller's aborted v6 game you should also count tracil's sc-themed version, although that's really for completeness sake
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I personally would never be able to put myself together to take TL Mafia seriously until firm rules and a decent system has been setup, which I have discussed in public/private before and much have already been brought up in this thread.
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I haven't played mafia on these forums, but a suggestion might be a different type of mafia: faction-based mafia. In this version you would have two or more "town" factions that need to eliminate the other (and usually everyone else) to win, with the possibility of a mafia faction which is smaller, but knows all of their members. An unaffiliated faction could also be included, that are able to side with any faction but the mafia.
Another aspect could be non-public clues: some clues may be public, but there could be specialized roles (town criers) that receive clues, and have the choice of distributing them however they wish.
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We definently need to have people signing up, become ACTIVE
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People say that the first few days are way too important and that there should be a method to keep the town from losing all their players first. First off, a smaller game can solve this. Frankly, I think a smaller game (20-30) could solve a lot of the problems of inactivity/kill imbalances etc. Smaller game means a shorter game, which also means that there won't be a headless town waiting around for their imminent doom. The game would be over by then.
Limiting players by post count etc. are just discriminatory. People should have the chance to show activity, and only after they have done so, should be mod killed.
I am against the random mafia killing proposition. It would make mafia cooperation followed by a kill impossible since the mafia would never be able to just trash someone who has too much information without getting lucky. It adds a complexity that is unnecessary. Again, smaller games would eliminate the long wait players have to endure, thus keeping things fast paced while still fair to real life mafia games.
The role checks/role finder thing is not very convincing for me. Rolefinder is potentially overpowered and will completely bypass greens. Why would you want to "rolefind" a green? It could cause problems. The DT check 1st day problem really isnt a problem. Its an annoyance caused by inexperienced players. If you want to get rid of it, make DTs a night only use like in the original. Rolefind etc is just a different way of getting similar problems, along with even more problems.
Silencer can very well be associated with cheating. Not saying it has happened, but pm/other stuff makes it ineffective to enforce. Perhaps a simple mafia roleblocker could work. (Means no DT checks, doc saves, vigi hits etc, but still allowed to talk).
About no role reveal: could work IN SMALL GAMES. Pretty chaotic for large games. However, games I've played in with no role reveal, there is a role of the coroner, who has the ability to know the identities of players once they die.
Mandatory posting: No. Seriously we can't have both mandatory voting and posting. Mafia often choose to not post. We can't just take away that luxury for them. Mandatory votes are enough.
If we're going to have unknown number of roles, I like qatol's idea of telling everyone of that role the number of that role. In an unknown role number game, mafia already has the advantage of knowing how many they are, why not extend that to blue roles too? Of course they won't know WHO the others are, but it is better than completely unknown roles.
For people who advocate the random list kill idea for the mafia, why dont you consider this? Have one (or more if you want, probably only one though) of the mafia be an "insane" mafia. Their kill is always randomized. Of course the mafia would figure out who their insane mafia is after night 1, but its an option.
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If mafia really wanted to kill someone they could put the name on multiple times^^
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EPT
