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United States2186 Posts
Caller's game is over and the motions are just being carried out. I do not know when the next game is coming up; BC told me he has some projects to work on before he can host and because he hasn't responded to me for several days I'm assuming he's pretty busy right now. TBH who hosts is not really all that important so long as they agree to work with everyone in figuring out the optimal game setup and don't just go run off and do their own thing. The prospective hosts can decide who does what among themselves etc, although I do heavily encourage as many of the veteran players to play, as we've had several games now with 'stupid towns' due to the low number of vets who were easily killed off at the start.
There have been a total of 6 different mafia games so far, 3 run by Chuiu, one by Ace, one by Bloodyc0bbler, one aborted one by Caller, and one revised one by Caller.
+ Show Spoiler [Previous game links] +
Here's a brief summary of each of them:
+ Show Spoiler [Summaries] +
Mafia 1: Mayor/Pardonner setup (townies get both). Basically town is retarded and when town intelligence level is too low mafia pretty much autowin if normal mafia balance numbers are used. Too many mafia for a low skill level game. Inactives hurt the game considerably and town surrenders quickly after lynching the mayor! Very one sided mafia win.
Mafia 2: Mayor/Pardonner setup (townie gets mayor, saboteur gets pardonner). Long drawn out game because of too many people + too many inactives. Town end up squeaking out a victory despite the mafia pulling off some sweet irc infiltration + finding a list of all known blues posted randomly somewhere due to murdering votelists, strong central organization through the mayor, and some good clue analysis efforts plus the mafia overstacked way too many kills. Close town win.
Mafia 3: No offices. The only game not crippled by inactivity. Ace gets inspected first round as mafia, gets the DT lynched but dies the next day. From here on the mafia just fold under poor strategy + a very overpowered town with good backdoor blue planning (votelists + too much town KP + lucky rolechecks/clue analysis i,e DECAF COFFEE LOL or N for Nemy!). Very one sided town win.
Mafia 4: Mayor/Pardonner (godfather gets mayor, medic gets pardonner). 2 mafia family game. Some irc infiltration (the lame kind of hiding invisibly rather than LTT's cool stunts) gave one family all the other family's roles + a bunch of blues and with good behavior analysis managed to snag virtually every blue with only 1 miss. Game ended prematurely due to role leakage but inactivity was crippling as usual with many blues being inactive. Very mafia sided win.
Mafia 5: No offices. DT gets myself killed day 1. Mafia manage to figure out and kill 10/15 blues by day 3 while the town was successful in killing 4/6 mafia with a combination of good rolechecks and votelists. However, the lack of blues was crippling and this combined with inactivity meant that the town could not win even with a 5/9 and 2/5 votelist.
Mafia 6 (aborted): Town was deemed too overpowered and the game was canceled quickly. Basically, invincible + guaranteed townies are bad news, sorry.
Mafia 6: Owned by inactivity for sure. I'll save the rest for when the game is 'officially' over even though there is no doubt to the outcome anymore.
Broad lessons from previous games:
-Inactives need to be removed killed burned immolated stuck on a pyre or thrown in the ocean. They have seriously affected 5/6 games but Mafia 3 wasn't all that active either.
-Votelists are overpowered unless there are an obscene number of people. For <50 games it is too good even when there is one per DT. For votelists to be used there needs to be some sort of trick roles (godfather, miller) or the insane dt system. With those they could be ok if limited to 1 per DT or if there are all 3 of those in place 2 per DT is acceptable.
-The DT roleclaiming problem day 1 is stupid and dumbs down the game.
-The first 3 days of kills have impacted the games far too much besides mafia 2. In mafia 3 the mafia was doomed when they didn't snag a very large number of blues. In Mafia 4 and 5 the mafia essentially won the game by very accurate targeting of blues in the first 2-3 days.
-Too many new roles per game is VERY BAD.
Here are some questions we should be attempting to answer:
-What elements make the game most fun and how can we incorporate them best? Role uncertainty? Chaos? Insane DTs? Godfathers? Clues? Pure analysis?
-What size of the game can we aim for. While we will ban the outright inactives there are many points on where we can draw the line (i,e the mafia who post one small thing and fake inactivity, the townies who don't do anything ever and are just sheep, etc). So rather than deciding that we should just decide what size of the game we are aiming for. I,e 20, 30, 40 people. 50 is by far the upper limit and I don't think we will get close banning inactives and getting that many people unless all previous actives return.
-How do we deal with the day 1 dt roleclaim 'you mafia' rubbish? Insane DTs? DTs cannot act until day 2? Millers? Balancing DTs is also an important issue. Are votelists (with extreme measures put on them) ok conceptually (i,e do they reward good things or does it just dumb down the game)? Give them infinite rolechecks? Make cluechecks not suck?
-How do we handle the overimportance of the first few days kills? This goes hand in hand with preventing the town from becoming a moronic slum too early on (i,e lose the key thinkers too early and it's gg). The real problem is that if mafia has just one player who is very good at behavior analysis and can figure out the blues just based on posts/votes, the mafia can essentially win the game on this sole factor. But if you bump up the blue numbers to combat this, then a mafia team who lacks those players gets completely screwed (i,e mafia 3). In the first two games this wasn't an issue nor was it in game 6 but in the other 3 I felt that a lot of the game was decided based upon the mafia's success in rooting out blues early, and frankly, it's pretty dumb. Lower KP on both sides?
-Which overall promotes a more fun game: mayor/pardonner or just an equal level game?
Please don't discuss possible new roles outside of the ones I have outlined. People are always overeager to do this and frankly adding new roles rarely benefits the game and can cause major problems -> see rockstar + nra member. It also confuses people and overwhelms them with new stuff -> see Ace's game where many vets were inactive. If you have (one) role that you think is really good you can pm me but I can easily see the thread getting cluttered up with pointless new roles thrown about.
Roles to Work With
DT: Randomization or only usable at night. No votechecks. More input needed here. This is balanced out by the Capo, making trust not an instant factor both privately and publically.
Medic: Same as always. Necessary role.
Vet: 1 extra life. Necessary role if only to make the mafia uncertain if they hit a vet or a medic blocked it.
The Godfather can choose at the beginning to appear as medic, DT, or townie (or vigilante). No conversions.
The Capo is a DT that acts at night but only has limited uses (2 or 3)
Vigilante: Questionable inclusion. Needs to be very limited in power (1 kill only) as it is by far the strongest town role.
I'll throw a bunch of strong suggestions in here so people can find things easier. Hopefully we can gain a good framework pretty easily.
+ Show Spoiler [Good ideas and Base Framework] +
On Hits:
Caller: Another option could be to randomize mafia hits. Give mafia a list of 10 people, then randomly pick 5 people to die out of that list. The RL rationale could be "x person was visiting a relative so we couldn't hit him, go down the list" or something like that. This way we can delay the rapid death of strong players very quickly.
[b]On Blues:[/b[
LTT:An idea that I've been toying with to encourage activity is to dilute every blue role a bit, and then giving everyone a role. These games are fun but they are susceptible to mass roleclaims. To prevent this, make it a closed game like Callers, where the total number of each role is unknown. There could be 3 detectives but 0 veterans. For balance reasons, this game would probably need to be smaller as well.
On DTs:
Incognito: Only let DTs use their powers at night.
RoL: thought I had was make the DTs able to role check day or night, however until Night 2, reds don't show up. Red=green green=green blue=blue until night 2, this can be altered. This encourages people to not use their role checks prematurely, they give less information, while you could find another blue to work with, if you get green it can be mafia or townie. So you have to wait to get the most info out of your role check, then act accordingly. I think that would limit day one role calling in order to establish circles, etc.
LTT: Role Finder - A DT may pm the game master (GM) a role and a positive integer. The GM will respond with a "random" player who has that role. The DT may only choose from townie roles. You may only use this ability X times. If you choose a role that no one has, you will be informed but this ability will still count as being used.
On Cheating:
Don't give information to dead players/observers. Have someone start a blog where all the alive players are banned to give the spectators a place to talk and figure things out on their own.
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-What elements make the game most fun and how can we incorporate them best? Role uncertainty? Chaos? Insane DTs? Godfathers? Clues? Pure analysis?
While role uncertainty seems like a good thing for town since mafia are scared/don't know how many more blues are out there, it's actually BAD for the town since the mafia can claim and since town doesn't know actually amount, can't be like omg, there are three claiming medic when there's only suppose to be 2.
Insane DTs are also detrimental to the town but it does solve the claim on day one problem and would need to be confirmed by checking the color of the lynched on the first day though that means wasting one check
Clues are good but it needs to be stated in the beginning of the game what will count as a clue. In both game 5 and 4 we thought names were clues until we found out later (told by host) that they weren't.
I think the inclusion of the GF is a very good role but we need something on the town's side to balance it out. The conversion/able to hide as a blue is really overpowering.
-How do we handle the overimportance of the first few days kills? This goes hand in hand with preventing the town from becoming a moronic slum too early on (i,e lose the key thinkers too early and it's gg). Lower KP on both sides?
the only way i can think of doing this is for the town to be ACTIVE. by everyone being active, everyone BECOMES important in future games and so there's not one guy singled out (as much)
In real life, the game of mafia is already balanced out. DT, medic, town v mafia. The advantage mafia have is that they know who else is mafia and the town doesn't and there is mistrust. We should work towards keeping this innate balance. If you make a role (GF) that makes it so that there is more distrust in the town, make a role that adds trust to the town.
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The problem is largely the rampant cheating which doesn't happen in IRL mafia, or in small group mafia.
I've had a full list of every role and mafia from around day 3-4 in every game after 2.
People running the games balk at actually responding when cheating is occuring despite conclusive evidence because it means ending the game. If people want inactives not to be an issue, make people's posts count, and limit them. Reading 10-30 pages if you have a life is not conducive to gameplay, and neither are people (besides the mafia, obviously) running the show behind the scenes.
Also, less roles please. The bulk of the town's work is supposed to be done by the green population, not a group of magic blue elves. If that means severely restricting the game's size, so be it.
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On January 15 2009 15:45 Ver wrote:
How do we deal with the day 1 dt roleclaim 'you mafia' rubbish? Insane DTs? DTs cannot act until day 2? Millers? Balancing DTs is also an important issue. Are votelists (with extreme measures put on them) ok conceptually (i,e do they reward good things or does it just dumb down the game)? Give them infinite rolechecks? Make cluechecks not suck?
My idea before mafia 5(or 6) was to change rolechecks to not identify regular mafia members at all (mafia = townie) and give DTs an infinite number of them. Still useful for finding blues, but no more day 1 DT roleclaim bs. I think the votelists are the most exciting part of the game (especially when you're on one with a bunch of mafia), plus it's much easier to analyze clues for a list of 5 or so people than trying to pour through 50+ profiles.
As for veteran players getting picked off by the mafia early, either hand out more medic roles (and no fucking suicide bomber) or perhaps just make the veterans... veterans. Ver, Ace, Camlito, BC, mikey, etc. get an extra life just to discourage the mafia from whacking them all by day 2.
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On January 15 2009 16:24 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 15:45 Ver wrote:
How do we deal with the day 1 dt roleclaim 'you mafia' rubbish? Insane DTs? DTs cannot act until day 2? Millers? Balancing DTs is also an important issue. Are votelists (with extreme measures put on them) ok conceptually (i,e do they reward good things or does it just dumb down the game)? Give them infinite rolechecks? Make cluechecks not suck? My idea before mafia 5(or 6) was to change rolechecks to not identify regular mafia members at all (mafia = townie) and give DTs an infinite number of them. Still useful for finding blues, but no more day 1 DT roleclaim bs. I think the votelists are the most exciting part of the game (especially when you're on one with a bunch of mafia), plus it's much easier to analyze clues for a list of 5 or so people than trying to pour through 50+ profiles. As for veteran players getting picked off by the mafia early, either hand out more medic roles (and no fucking suicide bomber) or perhaps just make the veterans... veterans. Ver, Ace, Camlito, BC, mikey, etc. get an extra life just to discourage the mafia from whacking them all by day 2.
I actually agree with the whole votecheck thing. It's not imba in terms of power, mafia just have to play it more safely and spread their votes. Also, it balances out a lot of the power that GD/Suicide bombers/Moles give the mafia
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Ok guys Ver's rundown is pretty well spot on.
If callers game ends, and for some reason they want me as the host I'm up for it but I will lay some stuff down now as I am insanely busy:
1) possible mafia game (this will involve an insane amount of work, where generally I plan to further balance my previous game, getting rid of all inactive players(this requires alot of work to find them all), etc...) To do this well, i will need input of LTT, Ver, Caller and Ace for all either a) playing a role in running a game, or/and being insanely helpful with suggestions. As a group we have to narrow down things and stick to a method
2) I am currently working on a 4 course fine dining menu for valentines day at my job, and have very little time to do it, which is insanely stressful as every one of my ideas has to a) be collaborated with a co worker and b) approved by management
3) In twoish weeks im heading home for a 12 day vacation in which I cannot say id be online much to be help
4) I have a weekly Pony Express segment to keep up on(missed this week sadly to do insane work)
5) Spending a bit of time getting up to speed on my bw game for a Lan
as well as a few more things as well.
These are all things untop of my regular work schedule, workout regime, and household obligations.
Now, as for what the next mafia needs.
More active players
More Balanced blue roles, but not new ones, using ones we all know that are balanced are fine
Non Vague clues
as main points.
We also have to find a new way to work the game. Day 1 is far far too important as of late, the game is dictated by how it swings and momentum follows with it. This usually is a roleclaim by a dt, jack, or asshole VI(me and RoL). So we have to find a way around this. To solve this issue I would like to hear some general early play ideas from people who have played mafia outside of TL.
Next, peoples lack of voting. In my game, more people were actively talking than voting, even knowing how much time they had. This is just plain annoying, you can easily change your vote in the event you have to, but not voting destroys the town.
Inactivity has to be combated, this usually stems from people getting a green role, or wanting to be led by the hand. In callers current game, participation was insanely low, most likely from most of the "core" known players died first day/night. My advice to these players(if its allowed by mods) is to for the purposes of mafia, have alternate names to avoid auto deaths.
As for fighting the inactivity itself, i mentioned above a huge list of people who don't participate have to be banned from the game and if possible a mod would have to ip check each user id(if new) to any of the banned players to avoid sneak around.
I also believe a short break from mafia games would encourage active participation, the span of time between chuiu's first three games was rather large, while the span between the last 4 have been so brief(i was supposed to be hosting again in callers stead but he created 12ish hours after the end of mine).
Regardless before someone can host a new one, serious serious thought has to be done by whoever hosts on balance issues, ways to prevent inactivity, and the like.
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Ver do you have any intention in assisting BC with the next game?
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On January 15 2009 16:33 Kuja900 wrote:
Ver do you have any intention in assisting BC with the next game?
Do you have any intention in playing next mafia game? LOL
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In the traditional face-to-face game of mafia, DTs can usually only use their checks during the night phase (for obvious reasons). Implementing this could eliminate the day 1 DT check problem as no DT would be able to use their role until the night time.
Player cap. Player cap can work two ways. Small mafia games tend to be more intense/involve more players assuming that only traditional and maybe a few extra roles (vigi/godfather) are included. However, inactivity (for those people who sign up only to be mafia) can ruin small games too. A possibility would be mod killing anyone who does not vote. Abstentions are permissible, and this system still allows the mafia to hide/whatnot. The problem could result in a mass mod killing of green townies, so perhaps experimentation with ratios needs to take place. Also a perhaps slightly larger game (40?) might be necessary to compensate for mass mod killing. Long games tend to make people restless, and people can become uninterested quickly if there is either an imbalance. Perhaps hosting more smaller and shorter games could increase activity.
Long games favor the town unless it is inactive. As a solution, reducing kill power might remove some of the swingyness of the first few nights, but ultimately benefits the town. Games I've played usually have a theoretical mafia win in 4-6 days assuming no mafia losses. However, if the game contains many unskilled/newer players, this might be unbalanced to the town.
In smaller games I've played in real life, DTs have infinite rolechecks, however, they are normally only alignment checks, not rolechecks. Vigi hits are also 1/night.
I think chaos in a game could make it fun, but could also make for dry uncertainty that could lead to an imbalance. I think infiltration with a dumbed down mayor/pardonner system + godfathers could make games interesting. A mayor/pardonner system could be fun, however inactivity could result if the mayor is secretive.
Another major cause of inactivity is secret circles. Some system needs to be devised that encourages open posting instead of the 5 person group who knows everything and tells nobody anything. I need to think about this. Conversions are overpowered. If successful, could mean insta-lose for the town. Especially when conversions happen night 3 and on. The town cannot risk sharing too much info because of conversion threats, but at the same time, they can't wait until after night 3 to organize. The mole role could be ok, since it is not a pick-a-knowledgeable person ability.
Although votelists can be overpowered, they are a check on mafia vote swinging, which is good.
I like the meth dealer concept in Caller's game that discourages 1a2a3a. Callers game had 2 though, and that is probably a bit much.
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On January 15 2009 16:20 L wrote:
The problem is largely the rampant cheating which doesn't happen in IRL mafia, or in small group mafia.
I've had a full list of every role and mafia from around day 3-4 in every game after 2.
People running the games balk at actually responding when cheating is occuring despite conclusive evidence because it means ending the game. If people want inactives not to be an issue, make people's posts count, and limit them. Reading 10-30 pages if you have a life is not conducive to gameplay, and neither are people (besides the mafia, obviously) running the show behind the scenes.
Also, less roles please. The bulk of the town's work is supposed to be done by the green population, not a group of magic blue elves. If that means severely restricting the game's size, so be it.
I can say this is a huge thing as well. People leak roles way to quickly. When i hosted mine(not going to say im guiltless as i know my game had leaks as well. I know of people who had the entire blue/red list who were a) dead players or b) random people watching the thread.
IRC infiltration is bloody gay and ruined aces game in the end(well and douchebag folca)
People account swapping to see other peoples roles in callers game.
Not sure how you can combat alot of that without a mod basically running or assisting with the game, and limiting irc channels to premade ones by game host(any brute hacking, or the like done by other side = they forfeit the game).
And L is right, the town should mainly be greens, It sucks being one when the chance of having a role is alot higher. I've been blue once, green 3 times, and a role far worse than green once. Being the blue was lame(ace led town by hand), being green once was amazing as I helped guide town to win, second time I was killed first night, third time game ended way early, and VI role I won with.
Honestly the game should be (if town has 50 players) 8-10 blue roles, 8-10 mafia, rest green townies. Of those blue roles, the KP should not be higher than the mafia, and not completely one side it either. Im guilty of having too many roles in my first game, If you guys want me to do one again, I will aim for a more balanced one.
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Canada7170 Posts
To be honest I don't really care, just as long as something is done about inactives. If another game gets destroyed by inactives, I'm done with mafia. Well, I would like to host. I don't mind DT claims on day 1, it gives town and mafia an idea of the players at hand, and stimulates debate between paths of thinking.
My thinking about inactives is that if you don't vote/abstain, you die. Unless you PM the game creator with a legitimate excuse ahead of time.
As for extra lives, I appreciate the thought, but mafia should be about every player working their role hard no matter what they are given. It is a completely legitimate strategy for mafia members to hit all the presumed active players at once. There are many thinking players who are not given credit publicly- I am typically a behind-the-scenes type player, it just happened that my role got compromised this most recent game.
For DTs, maybe if the DT gets to ask "did more than X mafia vote for PLAYER", and the moderator responds with a yes/no?
EDIT: Oh yeah conversions are really fucking terrible (sorry Caller)
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From past experience:
Mafia have a huge advantage over town when it comes to inactive members. Whereas townies should be posting EVERYDAY, flooding the traffic with as much discussion as they can, they aren't. Mafia can just sit back, post occasionally, and make kills almost unilaterally.
Mafia also tends to kill/silence the most important people first. This is bad as people like Ace/Ver/BC/Plexa/MTF etc etc etc keep dying on the first day. These same people also tend to get investigated by detectives. I think that the insane detective mechanism is good to block the latter, but former needs remedying. I suggest more protection/medic roles, or like I did, "trap" roles like the meth dealer. Keep in mind mafia strategy eventually became 1a2a3a4a5a 
Clues essentially have been useless in every single game. In every game town has won, it has been through rather overpowered listchecks. I tried to get rid of that in my game and to boost the importance of clues through the new veteran/medic/detective system, but apparently either I suck at writing clues or town can't interpret them.
New blood is not necessarily a bad thing when it comes to mafia. For instance, Ver was new blood and hella active. At the same time, people with high post counts might either be unhelpful/inactive, or just plain cheating (cough AZ cough).
Another option could be to randomize mafia hits. Give mafia a list of 10 people, then randomly pick 5 people to die out of that list. The RL rationale could be "x person was visiting a relative so we couldn't hit him, go down the list" or something like that. This way we can delay the rapid death of strong players very quickly.
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On January 15 2009 16:40 Incognito wrote:
In the traditional face-to-face game of mafia, DTs can usually only use their checks during the night phase (for obvious reasons). Implementing this could eliminate the day 1 DT check problem as no DT would be able to use their role until the night time.
Player cap. Player cap can work two ways. Small mafia games tend to be more intense/involve more players assuming that only traditional and maybe a few extra roles (vigi/godfather) are included. However, inactivity (for those people who sign up only to be mafia) can ruin small games too. A possibility would be mod killing anyone who does not vote. Abstentions are permissible, and this system still allows the mafia to hide/whatnot. The problem could result in a mass mod killing of green townies, so perhaps experimentation with ratios needs to take place. Also a perhaps slightly larger game (40?) might be necessary to compensate for mass mod killing. Long games tend to make people restless, and people can become uninterested quickly if there is either an imbalance. Perhaps hosting more smaller and shorter games could increase activity.
Long games favor the town unless it is inactive. As a solution, reducing kill power might remove some of the swingyness of the first few nights, but ultimately benefits the town. Games I've played usually have a theoretical mafia win in 4-6 days assuming no mafia losses. However, if the game contains many unskilled/newer players, this might be unbalanced to the town.
In smaller games I've played in real life, DTs have infinite rolechecks, however, they are normally only alignment checks, not rolechecks. Vigi hits are also 1/night.
I think chaos in a game could make it fun, but could also make for dry uncertainty that could lead to an imbalance. I think infiltration with a dumbed down mayor/pardonner system + godfathers could make games interesting. A mayor/pardonner system could be fun, however inactivity could result if the mayor is secretive.
Another major cause of inactivity is secret circles. Some system needs to be devised that encourages open posting instead of the 5 person group who knows everything and tells nobody anything. I need to think about this. Conversions are overpowered. If successful, could mean insta-lose for the town. Especially when conversions happen night 3 and on. The town cannot risk sharing too much info because of conversion threats, but at the same time, they can't wait until after night 3 to organize. The mole role could be ok, since it is not a pick-a-knowledgeable person ability.
Although votelists can be overpowered, they are a check on mafia vote swinging, which is good.
I like the meth dealer concept in Caller's game that discourages 1a2a3a. Callers game had 2 though, and that is probably a bit much.
what makes you so sure there are 2? O.O
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Also perhaps have no clues. Clues could be biased both by interpretation and by the mod making clues that are inconsistent in difficulty. RL mafia games I've played have the killing just as a story, which contains no clues. Its just a story. This could make for more behavior/statistical analysis. Seriously, what's the percentage of times when the town actually makes a correct lynch based on clues?
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On January 15 2009 16:41 mikeymoo wrote:
To be honest I don't really care, just as long as something is done about inactives. If another game gets destroyed by inactives, I'm done with mafia. Well, I would like to host. I don't mind DT claims on day 1, it gives town and mafia an idea of the players at hand, and stimulates debate between paths of thinking.
My thinking about inactives is that if you don't vote/abstain, you die. Unless you PM the game creator with a legitimate excuse ahead of time.
As for extra lives, I appreciate the thought, but mafia should be about every player working their role hard no matter what they are given. It is a completely legitimate strategy for mafia members to hit all the presumed active players at once. There are many thinking players who are not given credit publicly- I am typically a behind-the-scenes type player, it just happened that my role got compromised this most recent game.
For DTs, maybe if the DT gets to ask "did more than X mafia vote for PLAYER", and the moderator responds with a yes/no?
EDIT: Oh yeah conversions are really fucking terrible (sorry Caller)
yeah they are pretty opp -_-
oh well can't say i didn't try
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On January 15 2009 16:50 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 16:40 Incognito wrote:
In the traditional face-to-face game of mafia, DTs can usually only use their checks during the night phase (for obvious reasons). Implementing this could eliminate the day 1 DT check problem as no DT would be able to use their role until the night time.
Player cap. Player cap can work two ways. Small mafia games tend to be more intense/involve more players assuming that only traditional and maybe a few extra roles (vigi/godfather) are included. However, inactivity (for those people who sign up only to be mafia) can ruin small games too. A possibility would be mod killing anyone who does not vote. Abstentions are permissible, and this system still allows the mafia to hide/whatnot. The problem could result in a mass mod killing of green townies, so perhaps experimentation with ratios needs to take place. Also a perhaps slightly larger game (40?) might be necessary to compensate for mass mod killing. Long games tend to make people restless, and people can become uninterested quickly if there is either an imbalance. Perhaps hosting more smaller and shorter games could increase activity.
Long games favor the town unless it is inactive. As a solution, reducing kill power might remove some of the swingyness of the first few nights, but ultimately benefits the town. Games I've played usually have a theoretical mafia win in 4-6 days assuming no mafia losses. However, if the game contains many unskilled/newer players, this might be unbalanced to the town.
In smaller games I've played in real life, DTs have infinite rolechecks, however, they are normally only alignment checks, not rolechecks. Vigi hits are also 1/night.
I think chaos in a game could make it fun, but could also make for dry uncertainty that could lead to an imbalance. I think infiltration with a dumbed down mayor/pardonner system + godfathers could make games interesting. A mayor/pardonner system could be fun, however inactivity could result if the mayor is secretive.
Another major cause of inactivity is secret circles. Some system needs to be devised that encourages open posting instead of the 5 person group who knows everything and tells nobody anything. I need to think about this. Conversions are overpowered. If successful, could mean insta-lose for the town. Especially when conversions happen night 3 and on. The town cannot risk sharing too much info because of conversion threats, but at the same time, they can't wait until after night 3 to organize. The mole role could be ok, since it is not a pick-a-knowledgeable person ability.
Although votelists can be overpowered, they are a check on mafia vote swinging, which is good.
I like the meth dealer concept in Caller's game that discourages 1a2a3a. Callers game had 2 though, and that is probably a bit much. what makes you so sure there are 2? O.O
Maybe because two have already died?
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An idea that I've been toying with to encourage activity is to dilute every blue role a bit, and then giving everyone a role. These games are fun but they are susceptible to mass roleclaims. To prevent this, make it a closed game like Callers, where the total number of each role is unknown. There could be 3 detectives but 0 veterans. For balance reasons, this game would probably need to be smaller as well.
Detectives are important in any game to start organization of the town. Unfortunately, blind rolechecks make the game unfair to any big name player who happens to be a mafia member. To combat this, I propose the following:
Role Finder - A DT may pm the game master (GM) a role and a positive integer. The GM will respond with a "random" player who has that role. The DT may only choose from townie roles. You may only use this ability X times. If you choose a role that no one has, you will be informed but this ability will still count as being used.
Note: For "random", an algorithm will be used. The algorithm will be given after the game to ensure that the GM didn't influence the game by choosing whatever he/she wished, but it is complicated enough that players will not be able to figure it out and influence the outcome. I've got a few ideas in mind that I can give to the GM to use for this.
This ability dilutes the ability for DTs to randomly find mafia, but doesn't stop them from organizing early. Give them Clue Checks and Vote checks to help find mafia and to force the mafia to be smart about their voting.
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On January 15 2009 16:53 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 16:50 Caller wrote:On January 15 2009 16:40 Incognito wrote:
In the traditional face-to-face game of mafia, DTs can usually only use their checks during the night phase (for obvious reasons). Implementing this could eliminate the day 1 DT check problem as no DT would be able to use their role until the night time.
Player cap. Player cap can work two ways. Small mafia games tend to be more intense/involve more players assuming that only traditional and maybe a few extra roles (vigi/godfather) are included. However, inactivity (for those people who sign up only to be mafia) can ruin small games too. A possibility would be mod killing anyone who does not vote. Abstentions are permissible, and this system still allows the mafia to hide/whatnot. The problem could result in a mass mod killing of green townies, so perhaps experimentation with ratios needs to take place. Also a perhaps slightly larger game (40?) might be necessary to compensate for mass mod killing. Long games tend to make people restless, and people can become uninterested quickly if there is either an imbalance. Perhaps hosting more smaller and shorter games could increase activity.
Long games favor the town unless it is inactive. As a solution, reducing kill power might remove some of the swingyness of the first few nights, but ultimately benefits the town. Games I've played usually have a theoretical mafia win in 4-6 days assuming no mafia losses. However, if the game contains many unskilled/newer players, this might be unbalanced to the town.
In smaller games I've played in real life, DTs have infinite rolechecks, however, they are normally only alignment checks, not rolechecks. Vigi hits are also 1/night.
I think chaos in a game could make it fun, but could also make for dry uncertainty that could lead to an imbalance. I think infiltration with a dumbed down mayor/pardonner system + godfathers could make games interesting. A mayor/pardonner system could be fun, however inactivity could result if the mayor is secretive.
Another major cause of inactivity is secret circles. Some system needs to be devised that encourages open posting instead of the 5 person group who knows everything and tells nobody anything. I need to think about this. Conversions are overpowered. If successful, could mean insta-lose for the town. Especially when conversions happen night 3 and on. The town cannot risk sharing too much info because of conversion threats, but at the same time, they can't wait until after night 3 to organize. The mole role could be ok, since it is not a pick-a-knowledgeable person ability.
Although votelists can be overpowered, they are a check on mafia vote swinging, which is good.
I like the meth dealer concept in Caller's game that discourages 1a2a3a. Callers game had 2 though, and that is probably a bit much. what makes you so sure there are 2? O.O Maybe because two have already died?
could be more ^_^
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Caller, looking at the detail people have taken into interpreting clues, the town overall is horrible at it.
Game 2 had plexa, cam, mtf and ace,
game 3 had me, nightmare, mikey, mynock and possibly one other? In that game however nightmare mainly just vigi'd who we told him to, and mikey used his powers to investigate/kill.
game 4 uncertain as i died first night
game 5 was mine and town was mollested by retarded town(the few people who could analyze clues were totally ignored the whole way through as most of the mafia had been analyzed but the analysis ignored)
and callers current game the town is jsut terrible at it, as all the main analyzers are a) dead or b) not playing.
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On January 15 2009 16:56 LTT wrote:
An idea that I've been toying with to encourage activity is to dilute every blue role a bit, and then giving everyone a role. These games are fun but they are susceptible to mass roleclaims. To prevent this, make it a closed game like Callers, where the total number of each role is unknown. There could be 3 detectives but 0 veterans. For balance reasons, this game would probably need to be smaller as well.
Detectives are important in any game to start organization of the town. Unfortunately, blind rolechecks make the game unfair to any big name player who happens to be a mafia member. To combat this, I propose the following:
Role Finder - A DT may pm the game master (GM) a role and a positive integer. The GM will respond with a "random" player who has that role. The DT may only choose from townie roles. You may only use this ability X times. If you choose a role that no one has, you will be informed but this ability will still count as being used.
Note: For "random", an algorithm will be used. The algorithm will be given after the game to ensure that the GM didn't influence the game by choosing whatever he/she wished, but it is complicated enough that players will not be able to figure it out and influence the outcome. I've got a few ideas in mind that I can give to the GM to use for this.
This ability dilutes the ability for DTs to randomly find mafia, but doesn't stop them from organizing early. Give them Clue Checks and Vote checks to help find mafia and to force the mafia to be smart about their voting.
Like i said, random amount of blues is actually BAD for the town. and if everyone has a role, it's the same as everyone being green but they get to feel special about themselves. if everyone is special, that just means no one is.
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On January 15 2009 16:57 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Caller, looking at the detail people have taken into interpreting clues, the town overall is horrible at it.
Game 2 had plexa, cam, mtf and ace,
game 3 had me, nightmare, mikey, mynock and possibly one other? In that game however nightmare mainly just vigi'd who we told him to, and mikey used his powers to investigate/kill.
game 4 uncertain as i died first night
game 5 was mine and town was mollested by retarded town(the few people who could analyze clues were totally ignored the whole way through as most of the mafia had been analyzed but the analysis ignored)
and callers current game the town is jsut terrible at it, as all the main analyzers are a) dead or b) not playing.
nice to know i'm at least partially not responsible ^^
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On January 15 2009 16:57 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 16:56 LTT wrote:
An idea that I've been toying with to encourage activity is to dilute every blue role a bit, and then giving everyone a role. These games are fun but they are susceptible to mass roleclaims. To prevent this, make it a closed game like Callers, where the total number of each role is unknown. There could be 3 detectives but 0 veterans. For balance reasons, this game would probably need to be smaller as well.
Detectives are important in any game to start organization of the town. Unfortunately, blind rolechecks make the game unfair to any big name player who happens to be a mafia member. To combat this, I propose the following:
Role Finder - A DT may pm the game master (GM) a role and a positive integer. The GM will respond with a "random" player who has that role. The DT may only choose from townie roles. You may only use this ability X times. If you choose a role that no one has, you will be informed but this ability will still count as being used.
Note: For "random", an algorithm will be used. The algorithm will be given after the game to ensure that the GM didn't influence the game by choosing whatever he/she wished, but it is complicated enough that players will not be able to figure it out and influence the outcome. I've got a few ideas in mind that I can give to the GM to use for this.
This ability dilutes the ability for DTs to randomly find mafia, but doesn't stop them from organizing early. Give them Clue Checks and Vote checks to help find mafia and to force the mafia to be smart about their voting. Like i said, random amount of blues is actually BAD for the town. and if everyone has a role, it's the same as everyone being green but they get to feel special about themselves. if everyone is special, that just means no one is.
It isn't about being special or not. It's about giving them something to do. People who join and hope to get a power, then go inactive when they get green, will have an ability that they can choose to use or not. It especially makes them more active early in the game, when clue analysis isn't as viable.
Edit: Forgot a word.
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On January 15 2009 17:01 LTT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 16:57 chaoser wrote:On January 15 2009 16:56 LTT wrote:
An idea that I've been toying with to encourage activity is to dilute every blue role a bit, and then giving everyone a role. These games are fun but they are susceptible to mass roleclaims. To prevent this, make it a closed game like Callers, where the total number of each role is unknown. There could be 3 detectives but 0 veterans. For balance reasons, this game would probably need to be smaller as well.
Detectives are important in any game to start organization of the town. Unfortunately, blind rolechecks make the game unfair to any big name player who happens to be a mafia member. To combat this, I propose the following:
Role Finder - A DT may pm the game master (GM) a role and a positive integer. The GM will respond with a "random" player who has that role. The DT may only choose from townie roles. You may only use this ability X times. If you choose a role that no one has, you will be informed but this ability will still count as being used.
Note: For "random", an algorithm will be used. The algorithm will be given after the game to ensure that the GM didn't influence the game by choosing whatever he/she wished, but it is complicated enough that players will not be able to figure it out and influence the outcome. I've got a few ideas in mind that I can give to the GM to use for this.
This ability dilutes the ability for DTs to randomly find mafia, but doesn't stop them from organizing early. Give them Clue Checks and Vote checks to help find mafia and to force the mafia to be smart about their voting. Like i said, random amount of blues is actually BAD for the town. and if everyone has a role, it's the same as everyone being green but they get to feel special about themselves. if everyone is special, that just means no one is. It isn't about being special or not. It's about giving them something to do. People who join and hope to get a power, then go inactive when they get green, will have an ability that they can choose to use or not. It makes them more active early in the game, especially early when clue analysis isn't as viable. Edit: Forgot a word.
This is great as an idea I'm aware but creates for imbalance or general hatred. I can honestly say I hated getting the role of Village Idiot. Had lynching meant the game had ended however, and only I could win, the role would have been alot more challenging to play, and would promote acting like a mole or the like. If you want everyone to have a power you have to set it up that no particular role is decent, but combinations getting together can meet a specific role.
Ie have instead of a detective have 2-3 diff roles of a cop for instance where each one has one specific power a DT normally has, with 1-2 uses each or the like. and spread out 1 blue role that way, but even then I doubt that would promote much activity as most people mainly want to be mafia.
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On January 15 2009 16:59 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 16:57 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Caller, looking at the detail people have taken into interpreting clues, the town overall is horrible at it.
Game 2 had plexa, cam, mtf and ace,
game 3 had me, nightmare, mikey, mynock and possibly one other? In that game however nightmare mainly just vigi'd who we told him to, and mikey used his powers to investigate/kill.
game 4 uncertain as i died first night
game 5 was mine and town was mollested by retarded town(the few people who could analyze clues were totally ignored the whole way through as most of the mafia had been analyzed but the analysis ignored)
and callers current game the town is jsut terrible at it, as all the main analyzers are a) dead or b) not playing. nice to know i'm at least partially not responsible ^^
Caller as I have your red list, i can honestly say although your clues are infuriating to read, with 2-3 days worth it is fairly clear who some are. behavioral analysis snags a few more etc....
Your clues honestly would piss the hell out of me as I like to analyze clues, and with the way the town operates atm anyway that work would go to waste if I didn't have a name recognized generally on the forum.
Anyway, I'm off to bed, i will read any replies in the morning when im up and respond to as many as possible. Then will be back later tommorrow night.
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My thoughts:
1- Let the time do their work: this game was a little rushed by caller, BC asked for at least a 3/4 day to rest and prepare next game yet caller insisted. I think a "break time" should be called for like 1/2 weeks" to keep the game interesting.
2- No more new roles without discuss from the players. Silencer, VI, convertion, sandock, they all sucked because they were introduced by 1 person. Lets try to stay with the basics= dts, vet, medic, vigi. 1 or 2 special mafia.
3- Less and less blues, if someone wants to play then he has to play like green. Mafia is a derivative from "in real" mafia game and normally theres only 1 dt. Blue aristocracy makes the game boring to greens, and that leads to inactivity.
4- Forget about post count!! Forget about post count!! i mean thats not the important: some players may want to hide by not posting and thats ok. Force voting: thats the only thing that matters, i mean: now mafia can hide because they are not forced to show up not because they dont post. I propose a rule like this: first time skiping the lynch: a warning, if a player doesnt vote for 2 a second time without telling the GM (with a reason before hand) he gets modkilled, plain and simple. If someone skips 3 lynch for whatever reason (with or without justification) then modkill too: i mean if someone cant log in for a 2 minute issue then dont play.
5- how do we deal with first day dt roleclaim: you dont, its a part of the game. If a dt sacrifices like that then he has to convince the town. Also note that with less blues then the move comes really bad as your sacrificing a valuable rol. I think that should not be an issue, some people think its a stupid move, others think its a good. Id try them myself (for the 3 cases: green, blue and red) yet as i said its part of the game, normally i dont say its that bad because this is the only way to keep the game going first day: its like chess white makes the first move but here you dont know wich side is white nor if the first move was the best in this game.
6- Estimated number of people to make it interesting: 30 can grow up if more people show interest. Lists of inactives and actives players (basic activity: vote everyday).
7- Analisis is good, strategy too. And key players are what they are SIMPLY because there are almost no other players. In a better shaped game with more actives the number of "omg im a key player" decrease.
8- Full random roles (gms please you know what im talking about).
9- A day schedule: blocks of 12+12 "real hours". Most of us live a normal life and cant keep reading a thread all the day, But if the game is more rigid on timing then its easier to find 15 minutes to make an action.
10- And full ban to inactives/annoyers.
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Well, I am going to have a lot of input on this later, but I am tired for now and need to sleep. So I expect to be posting something massive and detailed tomorrow.
For now, I am trying to think of ways to get rid of the annoying fucking role calling like in Mafia 3 with Folca and a select few other games.
A thought I had was make the DTs able to role check day or night, however until Night 2, reds don't show up. Red=green green=green blue=blue until night 2, this can be altered. This encourages people to not use their role checks prematurely, they give less information, while you could find another blue to work with, if you get green it can be mafia or townie. So you have to wait to get the most info out of your role check, then act accordingly. I think that would limit day one role calling in order to establish circles, etc.
I remember I had a lot of ideas on DT balancing, I didn't like the insane DT concept, I am tired right now and will try to elaborate more tomorrow.
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I am attempting hard to get plexa back.
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United States2186 Posts
Jeez this thread is active. I like!
I agree with BC that there should be at least a short break. I imagine it will take some time to figure out in this thread how we should do things so I think that issue will take care of itself.
Kuja I already made this thread and I will be doing all the inactive weeding along with whoever hosts unless anyone wants to lend me a hand (not really that needed my memory is great and I have all the games memorized more or less). The issue with inactives is, where to cut the line and how to pre-emptively prevent anything (i,e less new roles, less posts or something)?
I still think we should let new people in however there needs to be some kind of criteria for letting them in. I was thinking of making it a requirement that any person without a proven track record needs to analyze one previous game and write up how the game ended as it did. Seems silly but can gauge their interest level. Thoughts?
Clarifications (putting this in OP):
The veteran players dying early is of less concern than the issue of blues dying. It's just there needs to be more gametime where the veteran players have to live so the town isn't in this position of 'hey whatta we do now guys someone tell me!!11!' This is honestly a tough issue (along with the below) and imo some of the biggest problems.
The real problem is that if mafia has just one player who is very good at behavior analysis and can figure out the blues just based on posts/votes, the mafia can essentially win the game on this sole factor. But if you bump up the blue numbers to combat this, then a mafia team who lacks those players gets completely screwed (i,e mafia 3). In the first two games this wasn't an issue nor was it in game 6 but in the other 3 I felt that a lot of the game was decided based upon the mafia's success in rooting out blues early, and frankly, it's pretty dumb.
Caller I like your idea a lot on this:
Caller said:Another option could be to randomize mafia hits. Give mafia a list of 10 people, then randomly pick 5 people to die out of that list. The RL rationale could be "x person was visiting a relative so we couldn't hit him, go down the list" or something like that. This way we can delay the rapid death of strong players very quickly.
This solves both of these problems quite handily; the luck factor is annoying yes but there's always some form of luck involved (generally a lot heh).
Limiting post count should already happen with a smaller game, but I do wonder if it could be further helped. I have forgotten about this because my reading speed makes catching up not an issue. Is it worth it to make some kind of rule system to limit posts? Or should we just indirectly do this by limiting game size? Voting should absolutely definitely be required though. With a smaller game we will have enough stragglers to be subbed in if someone ducks out.
As for clues: I personally hate them and think they are pointless outside of large games (50+) where the town needs some kind of help to sort through huge numbers of mafia. This is partially because I play a lot of IRL mafia where they don't exist, and the other issue is that with clues is that unlike behavior/voting records they can be interpreted any which way and if substantial analysis is done like in mafia 2 (which should be required or they become too easy) it can really bloat the thread up with frankly pretty stupid arguments at times.
The blue question:
I think that it's been proven pretty strongly now that if the mafia know what they're doing the whole 'hai guyz lets form an inner circle of blues!!' gets raped (in a non-mayor game) and the godfather who can roleclaim blue also works well with this. I do agree that we should be implementing mechanisms that encourage open participation rather than mass pm'ing. I think a lot revolves around how the DTs are made though.
Viable role list:
I am okay with votelists so long as there is some kind of uncertainty factor. I,e Godfather(s), insane DTs, or millers. The problem I had with them unrestricted is that it KILLS the mafia lategame, as suddenly that 2/10 list is now 2/4. Mafia already have it tough because online mafia gives the town so much evidence to go through that the mafia have to be very slippery in covering their tracks, clues, and votelists just add fuel to the fire.
RoL's DT idea is good as well if we implement this with Caller's idea on randomizing mafia kills. Insane DTs are also a feasible option though, as is Incognito's idea of letting DTs only use their powers at night like everyone else.
RoL said: thought I had was make the DTs able to role check day or night, however until Night 2, reds don't show up. Red=green green=green blue=blue until night 2, this can be altered. This encourages people to not use their role checks prematurely, they give less information, while you could find another blue to work with, if you get green it can be mafia or townie. So you have to wait to get the most info out of your role check, then act accordingly. I think that would limit day one role calling in order to establish circles, etc.
LTT's role finder ability also works:
LTT said:Role Finder - A DT may pm the game master (GM) a role and a positive integer. The GM will respond with a "random" player who has that role. The DT may only choose from townie roles. You may only use this ability X times. If you choose a role that no one has, you will be informed but this ability will still count as being used.
I am hesitant to go with the mass blues plan though. Imo this will cause a lot of confusion and just like in Mafia 4 people will go afk or become apathetic because there is too much stuff being thrown out at once.
Staples: Medic/DT/Vet/Vigi
Other good roles: Godfather (no conversions). The Godfather should be able to be seen as a proactive blue role (i,e not a vet).
Jacks are potentially good (very cool concept) but at the same time they are too extreme. I,e if the jack lives like MM in mafia 3 they just tear things up but if they die early (like scaramanga in mafia 6) then the town takes a major blow (this is because there must be a smaller number of them because they are so good; losing one really hurts). Imo remove.
Mad Hatters are stupid and have really never served much of a purpose.
Silencer is cool in IRL games but online I don't like it at all. It hurts activity because the outspoken guy that leads the game always gets silenced -> people don't care as much etc.
Suicide Bomber/Martyr go together. If bomber is in martyr must be in but imo if they aren't then neither should be. Bomber should definitely never be able to be used outside of night though. They do provide some good parts to the game...not sure this is pretty open ended I think.
Any other roles to consider?
As for online vs IRL mafia, there's one important thing to mention.
My IRL mafia is played with no role reveal upon death. This makes the game VERY interesting and one option I would really consider putting in after we get a successful game or two under our belts (too big of a concept switch for this upcoming game imo).
And I agree that we should be making every attempt to get all the past mafia vets who died off (plexa mtf ltt l empyrean etc) to play!
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On January 15 2009 16:37 malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 16:33 Kuja900 wrote:
Ver do you have any intention in assisting BC with the next game? Do you have any intention in playing next mafia game? LOL
lol yeah i got some sand up my crevice after the game restarted after i already contacted load of people and set up irc ect to go from blue>towny role, im playing next round.
ps- i love you ver
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Sydney2287 Posts
On January 15 2009 16:56 LTT wrote:
This ability dilutes the ability for DTs to randomly find mafia, but doesn't stop them from organizing early. Give them Clue Checks and Vote checks to help find mafia and to force the mafia to be smart about their voting.
In mafia 2 we did a lot of work with balancing voting to make votechecks as ineffectual as possible. Of course we still got caught out, but I think mafia 2 the main factor was interpretation of clues by players such as Plexa MTF and camlito more than votechecks. Having to worry about what lists the town might have and if we killed people in those lists and how many we know that they know weren't mafia in lists made it sufficiently difficult to keep us pretty interested.
I have more thoughts on roles etc but I have to sort through them so that they're transferrable to paper. I'll post again tomorrow.
EDIT: Please no conversions.
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Agreed with bockit. (also ver)
Tomorrow i will have more to say on the matters, as i am busy today ^^.
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I actually like LTT's idea in place of mine. I think Role Finder would be a better power then role check. Role Finder doesn't allow sometime to go "well Ver was strong last game, let me check him" then mafia role claim based off of that. It also takes away from the mafia ability to fake it. However I think a good balance to this would be to introduce the capo with the a role check ability.
The Capo is essentially a mafia with a DT power of role checking, I think if we include that, it would make the town be less trustworthy in the beginning. Combine that with the Role Finder, it can be very deadly. It gives the mafia a way to infiltrate, and makes special roles less willing to give information.
I am kind of drawing a blank on the ability use count for this though, I think depending on the DT count. I really hate the insane DT concept, and I like the Role Finder as opposed to Role Check to keep from day 1 role calling homosexuality. I feel like we should talk of the Capo and a role check being introduced, since it can be a POWERFUL mafia asset. However I don't know if this will create an unbalanced level of trust issues with the town. Last game had way too much uncertainties which made it hard for anyone to work together, or trust anyone else.
I think we need a balance between town trust and town paranoia. I think if we discuss a DT with Role Finder and a Capo with Role Check, and how to balance it we could find a very interesting game on our hands.
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I think one major factor which promotes inactivity is the number of players. The more players there are, the longer the game will go on. The longer the game goes on, the more inactivity shows up. I remember in BC's game Mynock and I were sitting there trying to do clue interpretation on our own because NOBODY posted after Ace got silenced. I think the problem is that people tend to lose interest. Therefore, I think the game should be limited to 30 people at the most just to keep the game shorter. A set timeline would also be nice (ie tell the thread exactly the schedule within +/- an hour or two about when day/night will end and stick to it barring real life showing up).
Please no mayor. Mayor promotes so much secrecy and can make the game VERY boring for anyone who isn't in that town circle. Taking this a step further, there is a very good reason that blues are trying to do things with a small circle. The suicide bomber. The problem with coming out in the open early is that the suicide bomber will just take them out and might take the medics with them. This forces blues with more information to try and communicate through mouths so they can continue to use their abilities without getting killed outright.
More on activity: Less blues. I always found that I am less inclined to talk if I have a blue role because I know that if I get hit, the town loses a big asset. More greens should mean that more people who are inclined to talk will be able to. This will also let the blues come out of the woodwork. Also, people won't feel so bad that they didn't get a role if they know that half the roles are green (I hope, after getting a lot of hiding roles, I actually want a green role/ vet just so I can talk in the thread - talking through mouths really sucks).
I like the randomized hit list. I think we should take it a step further though and have 1 person on the list per mafia. Each mafia must individually put in their hit. If a mafia fails to do so, either a random hit goes in or the mafia lose that hit? I don't know exactly how to balance this one. Also, if the hit goes through, the person assigned to that hit has a clue pointing to them show up. I don't like the mafia's ability to "hide from clues/protect from meth dealer" certain mafiosos. It gives a little more strategy to the mafia roles, but how likely do you think it was that any of the clues in Caller's game point to the godfather? (I honestly don't know, but it seems very unlikely, especially before he uses his conversion attempts)
I also don't mind the veteran players dying early on. I think it gives the newer players a chance to distinguish themselves. If the veterans really have a problem with it, they can always play under an aka (if the mods will allow it).
Remember that I am one of the people who did the DT roleclaim day 1 thing. The reason that I did it is because otherwise day 1 is just a random lynch. It is unlikely that a clue will be found linking to a mafia. What I suggest is that the person who runs the game puts out a list of like 6 people, one of which is mafia (mafia gets to choose who goes on the list, this might need to be balanced). This is a day 1 thing only but it gives the town a chance for some direction. Then scale back the DT to compensate.
I don't like the role finder ability. It seems too easy to form townie circles with an ability like that, even with a reduced number of blues. I either insane DTs with infinite rolechecks or RoL's idea.
I like the capo. This also allows the mafia to infiltrate circles easier, which makes it even more important for the town to be careful. However, even if the DTs get infinite rolechecks, I don't think the capo should. Late game rolechecks for the mafia are too strong when they win if they dodge all of the veterans/hatters/meth dealers.
One way to compensate for unknown role numbers is to have each role type know how many of them there are (ie vigis know there are 3 vigis, medics know there are 4 medics, etc). That way role numbers COULD be kept secret but also could be leaked.
I think that we should go a step further than just modkilling anyone who didn't vote. I think we should also modkill anyone who didn't post in the thread each day/night cycle. (And I mean a real post, not just "I posted in the thread lolz dont modkill me!") It's kinda a harsh way to force activity, but people who can't do something like that probably shouldn't be playing to begin with.
I don't think much can be done about the cheating. It happens and it sucks. Players who get caught doing it should be modkilled immediately (if playing and alive) and banned from future games.
I think Jacks can be balanced if you either limit the number of times you can use any ability for a certain role or take away their DT powers (or both). So how this might work is a jack could not use DT, could use vigi 1 time, medic 2 times, vet 2 times. Something like that.
Wow long post for me. Hopefully everything makes sense.
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look, really... just let chuiu host. i pmed him two months ago and he's been wanting to start a game but someone else keeps starting. i'm not trying to hate on everyone else's games, and there have been plenty of good contributions/ideas implemented in these games, but chuiu has the following qualities that make him a good host:
1.) Experience: he was the first to host a mafia game on TL, and through repeated iterations has a good grasp of what works and what doesn't. One can argue for/against certain aspects of his games, but that's possible for any host. Chuiu has a trial-and-error understanding relative to the TL playing pool, and his formula works.
2.) Simplicity: One could argue that Chuiu's games are relatively boring by design -- they lack intricate player abilities or the complexity of say a godfather/dual-mafia game. However, because they are simpler, they are easier to administer, and by the third game -- Ace's early demise notwithstanding -- Chuiu's game had become streamlined and efficient. And honestly, cool abilities can make things more exciting temporarily, but a consistent game engine that keeps players involved allows for more intense player participation, which is ultimately what mafia is all about.
3.) Polish: writing is always subjective, and it's hard to say someone's better than another. But I find Chuiu's writing to be concise, articulate, and consistently interesting. Over the course of a long game of Mafia, it's much easier to keep the game active with consistently good writing than erratic spurts of quality, something some of the other hosts have been guilty of. Plus, best TL Mafia/Day/Night banners hands down.
4.) Timing between games: there have been way too many mafia games crammed together within the last few months, and what used to be a highly anticipated event is becoming just another tired "thing". When Chuiu was the host, there was a definite and much-needed break between games, since the host as well as the players were tired.
Plus, with so many different hosts with varying degrees of creativity/effort/diligence, it's hard to know exactly what you're going to get into by signing up for a mafia game. I've been wanting to sign a game since Game 3, but I just don't trust the other games... not just because of the hosts, but because of the player pool, their ability to understand/implement the new rules/abilities, and other uncontrollable variables. For the reasons listed above, I hope that other aspiring hosts will take a break for a bit and let TL Mafia return to its original creator.
in other words: i feel a consistent, experienced host allows for a better game, regardless of special abilities, because Mafia is supposed to be about player interaction first and foremost. Everything else is just extra.
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whatever we do with respect to the actual rules executed in the new game, can we just please
take a goddamn break
before starting a new mafia game?
Thank you. 
oh and to be fair, if you're counting caller's aborted v6 game you should also count tracil's sc-themed version, although that's really for completeness sake
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I personally would never be able to put myself together to take TL Mafia seriously until firm rules and a decent system has been setup, which I have discussed in public/private before and much have already been brought up in this thread.
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I haven't played mafia on these forums, but a suggestion might be a different type of mafia: faction-based mafia. In this version you would have two or more "town" factions that need to eliminate the other (and usually everyone else) to win, with the possibility of a mafia faction which is smaller, but knows all of their members. An unaffiliated faction could also be included, that are able to side with any faction but the mafia.
Another aspect could be non-public clues: some clues may be public, but there could be specialized roles (town criers) that receive clues, and have the choice of distributing them however they wish.
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We definently need to have people signing up, become ACTIVE
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People say that the first few days are way too important and that there should be a method to keep the town from losing all their players first. First off, a smaller game can solve this. Frankly, I think a smaller game (20-30) could solve a lot of the problems of inactivity/kill imbalances etc. Smaller game means a shorter game, which also means that there won't be a headless town waiting around for their imminent doom. The game would be over by then.
Limiting players by post count etc. are just discriminatory. People should have the chance to show activity, and only after they have done so, should be mod killed.
I am against the random mafia killing proposition. It would make mafia cooperation followed by a kill impossible since the mafia would never be able to just trash someone who has too much information without getting lucky. It adds a complexity that is unnecessary. Again, smaller games would eliminate the long wait players have to endure, thus keeping things fast paced while still fair to real life mafia games.
The role checks/role finder thing is not very convincing for me. Rolefinder is potentially overpowered and will completely bypass greens. Why would you want to "rolefind" a green? It could cause problems. The DT check 1st day problem really isnt a problem. Its an annoyance caused by inexperienced players. If you want to get rid of it, make DTs a night only use like in the original. Rolefind etc is just a different way of getting similar problems, along with even more problems.
Silencer can very well be associated with cheating. Not saying it has happened, but pm/other stuff makes it ineffective to enforce. Perhaps a simple mafia roleblocker could work. (Means no DT checks, doc saves, vigi hits etc, but still allowed to talk).
About no role reveal: could work IN SMALL GAMES. Pretty chaotic for large games. However, games I've played in with no role reveal, there is a role of the coroner, who has the ability to know the identities of players once they die.
Mandatory posting: No. Seriously we can't have both mandatory voting and posting. Mafia often choose to not post. We can't just take away that luxury for them. Mandatory votes are enough.
If we're going to have unknown number of roles, I like qatol's idea of telling everyone of that role the number of that role. In an unknown role number game, mafia already has the advantage of knowing how many they are, why not extend that to blue roles too? Of course they won't know WHO the others are, but it is better than completely unknown roles.
For people who advocate the random list kill idea for the mafia, why dont you consider this? Have one (or more if you want, probably only one though) of the mafia be an "insane" mafia. Their kill is always randomized. Of course the mafia would figure out who their insane mafia is after night 1, but its an option.
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If mafia really wanted to kill someone they could put the name on multiple times^^
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United States2186 Posts
A bit short on time here.
Yes, fewer players is a good thing. Yes we need a break. We should be using this break time to figuring out an optimal setup anyway so it's not like anything will happen.
d_so, Chuiu can host if he wants, like I said in the intro, who the host is does not matter at all. I'm sure BC would welcome it because he's so busy and Caller could play again. All that matters is that the host works with us on inactives to ban and the game setup rather than just doing their own thing. We just don't want any mafia 3 stuff where the town is virtually assured victory before the gates are opened.
Incognito, I don't think it's a good thing for the game that the mafia should have the luxury of faking inactivity. I don't think mandatory posting is the way to go either (mandatory voting definitely though). So long as the right players are playing this should not be an issue.
Qatol:
You make a good point about the suicide bomber encouraging behind the scenes work (and on the mayor as well). That's a pretty strong argument for getting rid of it, for as you said, that decreases overall participation/interest when there's a secret club.
I wouldn't worry about day 1 lack of targets though. Clever people can get a lot done if they have the chance.
It looks like we have a while to go on figuring out DTs and mafia hits. These two things are the biggest problems. Things are still a swirl in my head.
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Its not necessarily a good thing to just hand the mafia a way to be inactive. But it is a valid strategy. People have different playing styles. If their style is to work behind the scenes, that is valid. If a mafia likes to work behind the scenes, that is valid. You might not like the fact that mafia are inactive, but the simple fact that we're trying to boost town activity is an incentive for the mafia to be active. The mafia can't hide in inactivity if the town is active. You're right, as long as you play the game, its fine. But people have their different ways of playing. Not voting is not a way of playing. Not posting could be.
*edit*
In theory larger games have to have a smaller proportion of mafia/town.
To balance the DT/mafia kills thing, we're going to have to start to come up with starting scenarios.
Proposal 1 (its just a rough draft).
30 player cap.
Rules: Players who do not vote in the day voting thread get modkilled in the day post the following day.
Blue roles:
DT - infinite rolecheck--may only use his ability at night.
Vigilante - infinite night kills, 1 per night.
Doctor
Vet - two lives.
Mafia roles:
Godfather - can appear as any blue of his choice. No conversions.
Capo - Rolechecks, 1 per night. Not sure of the amount of uses yet.
Mafia member
Mafia kill power is equal to their number. The mafia wins if they are equal to or outnumber the town. Hence the theoretical mafia victory comes after 4 days.
Town wins if all the mafia are dead.
30 players-
3 Mafia
1 Godfather
1 Capo
2 DTs
1 Vigis (Are 2 vigis overpowered for 5 mafia?)
2 Doctors
2 Vets
18 Townies
Advantages: Small game. Perhaps mafia size should be reduced to compensate for the inherent mass modkilling on day 2?
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thinking for next time, I think we should get rid of telling how many blue/red/green roles, dont reveal role on death, and possibly clues but if so, no straight out role checks.
As i flesh out a better idea ill throw it down.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 16 2009 09:14 Incognito wrote:
Its not necessarily a good thing to just hand the mafia a way to be inactive. But it is a valid strategy. People have different playing styles. If their style is to work behind the scenes, that is valid. If a mafia likes to work behind the scenes, that is valid. You might not like the fact that mafia are inactive, but the simple fact that we're trying to boost town activity is an incentive for the mafia to be active. The mafia can't hide in inactivity if the town is active. You're right, as long as you play the game, its fine. But people have their different ways of playing. Not voting is not a way of playing. Not posting could be.
*edit*
In theory larger games have to have a smaller proportion of mafia/town.
To balance the DT/mafia kills thing, we're going to have to start to come up with starting scenarios.
Proposal 1 (its just a rough draft).
30 player cap.
Rules: Players who do not vote in the day voting thread get modkilled in the day post the following day.
Blue roles:
DT - infinite rolecheck--may only use his ability at night.
Vigilante - infinite night kills, 1 per night.
Doctor
Vet - two lives.
Mafia roles:
Godfather - can appear as any blue of his choice. No conversions.
Capo - Rolechecks, 1 per night. Not sure of the amount of uses yet.
Mafia member
Mafia kill power is equal to their number. The mafia wins if they are equal to or outnumber the town. Hence the theoretical mafia victory comes after 4 days.
Town wins if all the mafia are dead.
30 players-
3 Mafia
1 Godfather
1 Capo
2 DTs
1 Vigis (Are 2 vigis overpowered for 5 mafia?)
2 Doctors
2 Vets
18 Townies
Advantages: Small game. Perhaps mafia size should be reduced to compensate for the inherent mass modkilling on day 2?
The problem I have with 1 KP per mafia is then the game is even more influenced by early game actions. That first day lynch suddenly has a HUGE significance and makes things very hard to balance
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Ok general idea how I think we could try to do it next round, regardless of who the host is. Have the town between 30-60 people(your going wtf, why tops of so many). Between myself, Ver, LTT, Caller, Ace, Chuiu and any vet player who wants to help, we could create a huge list of inactives/shit disturbers who don't actually play the game and keep them from playing.
Next, the number of blue roles should be smaller, mafia should just be mafia no special abilities.
For blue roles im thinking of only using Vig, DT, Medic, and Vet.
Say we have 50 players for arguments sake.
out of those 50, 6-8 be red
2-3 DT
2 med
1-2 Vet
1-2 vig
Everyone else is green.
how each role could work.
DT (2 -3 players)
Dt's are reworked. When you first get your role, you have an option. You PM the host on how you want your powers to be
a) you can votecheck, once every 2 days on that days vote(only that days) However, its working is not the same as before. It only tells you how many green townies voted on that list(this means mafia/blues are left on it).
or b) you can rolecheck someone once every 2 days, starting day 2. This role check only gives you a colour orientation, not the actual role(in case of a blue).
Medics(2 people) can protect someone at night, if a mafia hits who they are protecting, the medic is left with a clue of that mafia.
Vet(1-2 people) are same as before, except if they are hit and not killed in a night, they get a clue to who attacked them.
Vig (1 - 2 people) They have the ability to attack someone once every two days(total of 3 hits), starting night 2. This means they can kill more than previous games, but cannot hit as often.
for the mafia, they can vote like a townie, and at night this is the new bit.
Each mafia member is paired with another, each person in that pair must individually pm the host the same person to kill, or hit doesnt go through(this punishes inactivity). IE this means each mafia member must pm you, and each pair must have same target.
The big catch in all this is, when someone is killed by the mafia, or lynched, their role is not revealed. The only way to find out someones colour, is for a DT to rolecheck them.
In this your DT's mean alot, but picking them out is harder as the mafia will have no way of knowing if they hit one or not, nor does the town know if they can trust them or not. It becomes a game slightly more complex than earlier versions, but still keeps the game balance i believe.
Inactivity at that point you could replace the player, and no one would know if it was a blue/green/red replaced, etc...
In this situation, also, non voters will be removed from the game(you must either vote for someone or abstain). Also, no clues are left in the writeup of who dies or very insignifigant ones leading to like one of the x amount of mafia. As much as i personally love clue analysis, it seems like the majority of the players suck balls at it, and subsequently town gets lamed alot due to it.
any thoughts on this?
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BC:
First of all, with the attendance from recent games, I find it unlikely we would have more than 40 people who want to play and won't go inactive right away/ aren't disturbers. However, that doesn't really matter for setting up rules.
My first issue with this style of game is that the DTs (and most other blues, maybe not vets) can still be owned quickly by good behavioral analysis. Granted, with no role reveal, the mafia won't know if they actually took out the blues or not, but the point still stands. I really don't know a way around this for any game except that people need to work on better mafia poker faces.
With no role reveal upon death, how is the DT votecheck ability useful at all? I can't see it being worthwhile ever if the mafia just mix in a few votes on each list because the only way to be sure you have gotten rid of all the mafia on a list is to lynch everyone on that list. And doing that might hurt the town if there are blues on that list.
The DT rolecheck ability seems a little stronger, but I don't see why a DT would want to role reveal anyone who is dead. It seems like it would always be more useful to use it on still living players.
Assuming the game is a smaller set of players than previous games, how likely is it that the game would actually get to the point where the vigis would get to use their 3rd hit? (I honestly don't know on this one, it just seems like it could be a concern)
I like the mafia hit idea. It has bothered me that the mafia don't really get punished for inactivity like the town does. If 8/10 mafia are inactive, then I don't think the mafia should be hitting nearly as much, just like if 90% of the town is inactive, the mafia can just sway votes.
If we actually want to be able to role reveal dead players, I suggest adding a few coroners who can only role reveal on dead players (balancing numbers as necessary). Another option is to have the DT role reveal alternate between living and dead players. Right now it looks to me like both sides would just wind up playing mostly blind and if the town has good behavioral analysis, they win. Otherwise the mafia wins.
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On January 17 2009 06:53 Qatol wrote:
BC:
First of all, with the attendance from recent games, I find it unlikely we would have more than 40 people who want to play and won't go inactive right away/ aren't disturbers. However, that doesn't really matter for setting up rules.
My first issue with this style of game is that the DTs (and most other blues, maybe not vets) can still be owned quickly by good behavioral analysis. Granted, with no role reveal, the mafia won't know if they actually took out the blues or not, but the point still stands. I really don't know a way around this for any game except that people need to work on better mafia poker faces.
With no role reveal upon death, how is the DT votecheck ability useful at all? I can't see it being worthwhile ever if the mafia just mix in a few votes on each list because the only way to be sure you have gotten rid of all the mafia on a list is to lynch everyone on that list. And doing that might hurt the town if there are blues on that list.
The DT rolecheck ability seems a little stronger, but I don't see why a DT would want to role reveal anyone who is dead. It seems like it would always be more useful to use it on still living players.
Assuming the game is a smaller set of players than previous games, how likely is it that the game would actually get to the point where the vigis would get to use their 3rd hit? (I honestly don't know on this one, it just seems like it could be a concern)
I like the mafia hit idea. It has bothered me that the mafia don't really get punished for inactivity like the town does. If 8/10 mafia are inactive, then I don't think the mafia should be hitting nearly as much, just like if 90% of the town is inactive, the mafia can just sway votes.
If we actually want to be able to role reveal dead players, I suggest adding a few coroners who can only role reveal on dead players (balancing numbers as necessary). Another option is to have the DT role reveal alternate between living and dead players. Right now it looks to me like both sides would just wind up playing mostly blind and if the town has good behavioral analysis, they win. Otherwise the mafia wins.
My reasoning for the DT power is a) role reveal works in a sense not so much of on dead players but like, you build a list, and if say, a dt finds a blue randomly, he can build a circle that way etc...
For the vote check, it helps narrow down lists, find lists say with 4-5 people, if you get lucky boom you have a bunch of greens, or a case of blue/red. It is not meant to be something to lynch someone instantly, its meant for a dt to gradually build a list of whos clean or not based on voting, They play the longterm vote trace and have lists to release or the like.
Role check is short term play.
I understand inactivity would still be the bane of this game but yea you do raise really valid points, My mafia team idea was my fav of them regardless.
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Problem with longterm play is games don't generally last long enough for longterm stuff to develop. I guess you might get a DT who wants to try and gamble with the votecheck ability to try and hit a list of greens, but otherwise, I just don't see the ability being used. The most recent game ended on night 4 I think? Your game ended on night 6? So at the most, the DT gets 3 votechecks. I just don't think that is enough to be useful before the game is basically decided. Seems like it might be better with more players though. Or maybe if you can use it every day, though it would have to be tweaked to make sure it isn't too strong.
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There's no such thing as behavioral analysis to find someone's role - that's just people playing in such a way that makes it so obvious. As people get better that will stop. You also don't need to worry about how the first day goes - thats almost always one of the most exciting days because both sides are doing little things fighting for power. Yes it dictates the rest of the game but that's never going to change.
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I reailly like what BC posted in his last post. Actually, everything, except the part where role is not revealed upon death. I just don't thing that right now is the best moment to change something as "gamechanging" as this.
From earlier posts, what I liked were:
-Role finder
-No untested role, or things OP like conversion, etc >< I think the next one should be pretty standard and go from there.
-Even tho clues werent that helpful from what i saw from the last games, I'm not sure they should be removed altogether anyway. Getting the balance for not too obious yet helpful clues is probably the hardest for a GM, so I think it should be left for the GM to decide. Anyway it should not be gamebreaking either way.
-Obviously force people to vote/abstain. Even tho it's probably only hurting town, this get inactive sorted up quite easily and force some activity.
-Nigh posts/day posts going up around the same time each day/two days would be very good. Especially if voting is forced. Not knowing when days are ending is hard if you ca't stay on the thread 24/24.
-Short break ftw.
-Somone also mentioned making the DT role check a night power, I like.
Ok this is a mass of random stuff gathered from people's ideas but yea, those I defenitely support.
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bumping this thread, i think theres a lot of people that can be interested if we make the right adjustments to the game. Hopefully there is more people interested in a game with less blues than i thought at first sight.
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On January 17 2009 12:46 Ace wrote:
There's no such thing as behavioral analysis to find someone's role - that's just people playing in such a way that makes it so obvious. As people get better that will stop. You also don't need to worry about how the first day goes - thats almost always one of the most exciting days because both sides are doing little things fighting for power. Yes it dictates the rest of the game but that's never going to change.
This is very true. If the town is really active, it should be harder for the mafia to accurately hit blues. If not, then its the town's fault.
Also yeah, DT vote checks without role reveal or coroners is useless.
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bump, we should get more ideas together methinks
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This thread went exactly like the games. 10 posts/min in the first day, no activity afterwards.
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United States2186 Posts
I haven't been very active and haven't been propping it up. But yeah it seems a break is definitely the right idea as people's interests haven't been very high, probably due to the last game heh. I really do encourage more responses though until we can get a good system down. I think I finally came up with something good.
I like no role reveal upon death and with that in mind your ideas are very good BC. But I think that we should leave that for mafia 8 and beyond and just go with a classic formula for one game. Another bad game will likely cause a long (permanent?) mafia hiatus and while I like no role reveal upon death there is a chance it could just produce more apathy since people would be overly suspicious of everyone. Let's leave this till next game discussion unless there is overwhelming approval that we should be doing it for this game.
Blackace is right about the first day lynching (I only have problems with the mafia hits lynching has been fine) but I still think you are a little overoptimistic on the role problem. The number of people who can skillfully hide their role (to the mafia who only cares if green/blue/vet) is really really tiny and that's just on day 1/2. Yes this is improved with good play but right now the level of skill necessary to do that simply isn't there. I do agree with incognito that an active town will help to some degree. Even still, we need to have measures in place to make sure the first few mafia killdays aren't too volatile.
I guess the major thing to decide on is if we are going for a random solution or another solution. The random solution applies to both mafia kills and detective checks (we don't have to take both but it makes sense to go all or nothing). The issue of the mafia not being able to kill an important person is a big problem with the random targeting system; probably the biggest reason to scrap it. But then we are back to square one on how to figure out the killing system. More on that later.
Making DT's only check at night is also a great option that should be implemented no matter what. A straightforward and simple solution to prevent the dumb day 1 roleclaims. If we don't do random this is the way to go imo (even if we do other solutios). I also think it's fine that DTs can see the full blue roles (assuming godfather is in play which imo is a good/necessary idea; obviously no conversion don't even bring that up).
The other issue of DTs are clues. I've said this before I'll say it again, I hate clues and think they are stupid. Behavior can be argued any which way, while clues are almost wholly subjective and frankly just clog up the thread with stuff that has nothing to do with the actual game itself. In bigger games they are crucial for letting the town weed through the silent mafia, but in this next game the mafia is not going to have a real option to stay silent with much fewer + more active people.
Poll: Are clues useful to have for smaller games? (25-40~)
(Vote): Clues are still good for small games
(Vote): Clues serve no purpose in small games
(Vote): Clues are bad for small games
If we do keep clues Qatol had a nice idea (not sure if he posted it here too or not) of letting the 'cluecheck' ask if a certain person is 'x mafia codename.' Better than the current (useless) power but it's still pretty mediocre.
Incognito, we must not have the mafia KP be 1:1. That makes everything lean on whether the town can kill mafia in day 1/2 or they lose. Remember, we need a less volatile early game where the killings don't decide everything immediately. Your suggestion is a flagrant example of this where the mafia can kill every single important blue the first night (and if they don't then the vigi's will murder them). That is the exact problem we're trying to avoid.
I still don't have my own framework yet. BC your idea of vigi's having to wait between days is good but letting them have 3 kills is definitely not. Blue roles should not be of such a high output that they can singlehandedly break the game if left alive.
I don't know I feel like this is trying to attack the basic structural framework of mafia which is why this is such a hard problem to solve. I'm going to delve a little deeper in hopes of feeling things out better, so hear me through.
In an ideal game, everyone would be sufficiently skilled enough so that either the mafia would not have good leads on who's blue and whos not, or if they did, the medics would also be able to figure this out, making the mafia not being able to just kill 'hidden' blues with impunity. In our games the medics so far have either been killed off early or have not been able to figure this out, and frankly it's pretty unreasonable to base your protection off of this because you don't know know what the mafia knows and if they have the right people who can figure this stuff out. Thus, it's safer to go and prot the guys in the open who the mafia might want to shut up anyway. It's pretty clear that the medics are not going to be able to counterbalance the mafia being able to figure out blue roles and kill them too easily (or miss and lose). The randomness options seem to have been the best bet so far but the mafia does need the ability to kill the really important guys if they so choose; targeting is one of the most important mafia strategies and it should remain so. It just shouldn't be the most important or only necessary mafia strategy.
Thinking about this more, I honestly think the vigilante is bad for the game in this regard. When I was prioritizing targets as mafia my first enemy was not the DT or the medic but the vigi by far. The town lacks KP inherently and while DTs are good they don't change this fact. DTs are thus most useful with mayors where the double lynch makes the additional information even more useful. We saw how in mafia 5 even though the town got virtually every mafia with very nice dt checks they didn't have nearly the KP to take them out because the mafia was able to kill a vigi and jack very early, reducing the non-lynch KP from 6 to 3 (not counting bomber). This singlehandedly won the game for us; the votelists were so overpowered that game that having the other 2 DTs wouldn't have made that much more of a difference (might have saved a wasted lynch at best) but lacking those 3 kills was huge. Thus, either vigi should only get 1 kill, or vigi should be removed.
Here's a possible alternative.
Low mafia number, low mafia KP, low blue count. Say, 30 people (what we will likely end up with). This is reasonably similar to your setup incongito but with some important changes.
No vigi setup:
5 mafia. Includes Godfather and Capo. 1 KP per 2 mafia rounds down. If it rounds up then the first few lynches are too volatile.
2 DTs (Infinite rolechecks, only usable during night)
1 medic
2 veterans (1 extra nightlife so 2 hits to kill)
19 townspeople.
Mafia needs to be fewer to compensate for reduced KP although godfather/capo does help. The medics could be slightly overpowering but likely will be canceled out partially with the lack of information from dt/capo. I suppose it could be rounded up but that makes everything rely on getting that first mafia which is not good. Thus there is the alternative setup:
Alternatively:
6 mafia. Includes Godfather and Capo. 1 KP per 2 mafia rounds up. If it rounds down then the first few lynches are too volatile.
2 DTs (Infinite rolechecks, only usable during night)
2 medics
2 veterans (1 extra nightlife so 2 hits to kill)
1 Vigilante (1 kill usable day 2 and beyond)
The extra mafia KP and rounding is balanced out by the vigilante and extra medic.
In both games the Godfather can choose at the beginning to appear as medic, DT, or townie (or vigilante). The Capo is a DT that acts at night but only has limited uses (2 or 3) And of course it goes without saying no conversions. All of this is assuming no clues btw since I think they are unnecessary for such a small game.
How do each of these sound? They are aiming for a longer game which I think is important since there is often too little too fast in previous games (seems to be decided upon in 5-6 days rather than 2-4). The town has time to make mistakes and especially in game 1 the blues are not that important at all. I think that making the blues small in number (Balanced out by low mafia KP) and not that powerful is a fair solution to the problem I've proposed.
I'll add role information to the OP so we don't waste time discussing how conversions suck or whatever.
As for inactives, guys have faith. We will make sure that the right people are chosen, plus I'm sure there will be stragglers who could be subbed in for any random inactives. Making the mafia send in their hits like that is just going to be an annoying and unnecessary bureaucratic procedure. If we can't get the mafia to be active then what's the point of our efforts (they'd just be subbed/modkilled anyway).
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Clues are very unpredictable. They can point many different ways and each host has different clue styles, it becomes very difficult to make sense of them.
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quick quips since I have no idea about everything I would change yet...
1.) Clues are necessary. There's no way around it. Not everyone can be analyzed by behavior, and that just means all the top players get DT checked. Whether or not they are mafia once those checks run out if enough mafia haven't died the game is over. The mafia just play to survive rather than to wipe the town out asap and the game staggers. Without clues there is no discussion.
2.) DT checking only at night is a must for now. Normally it's allowed so that Day 1 can get started discussion wise but since there are not enough people skilled at NOT giving up their role we can't afford it. I still don't know why people tell anyone else their roles anyway but oh well.
3.) For mafia KP 1:1 is good if it's a decent sized game. I don't think it should change however if the problem is early game KP use something like Mafia KP = 3 + X where x is the number of the night we are on. That way the longer the game goes both factions get stronger but mafia get stronger a bit faster, even though classic mafia games don't really need this (both factions still get stronger without this KP).
4.) DTs need to stay basic. Clue check, role check/alignment check and thats all. No vote list checks unless they only get ONE. Mafia likewise can just be Godfather and that's it.
5.) Randomized roles aka no idea if we are playing with Vigis, Vets and how many. Basically all we know is we have DTs and medics for sure, and there's a Godfather and everything else is up in the air. the total # of blues around are known but not how many of each. Mafia games technically most of the roles should be plain green. Problem is when it comes to non-veteran players people bitch when they don't get a blue/red role. Nothing we can do about it as we've tried giving lots of blue roles even though they aren't powerful but still useful and people still won't play.
The basic framework is fine. I think we all tried to make the game more fun too fast without the level of skill of everyone catching up. We should stay close to the original framework while slowly incrementing changes so players that are new or just not that good learn how things "really" work. I've written tons of things on mafia on how to win and the mind games that go on that I should probably go find on my other forum.
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I think the main thing is to have smaller games with proven active people. Preferably rational players who play the game no matter what role they get.
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Ace, I think it might help a lot of people (myself included) if you could put together a basic mafia tutorial. I know I was guessing a lot about how to properly play my role in BC's game, and it is quite possible that I would have accidentally given myself away stupidly if you and Caller hadn't been helping me. I mean, I realize that a lot of playing is just thinking things through and realizing how your comments will be seen and interpreted, but we are seeing people (usually blues) give themselves away game after game. A good example of this from the last game was Scaramanga, who was obviously some sort of blue role.
I would also like to point out that mafia have an easier time finding blues than medics do. This is because the mafia know who all of the other mafia are. Often in games, the people who act strangely are mafia and blues, usually (I hope) because they aren't sure about how to play their role. However, the mafia can immediately eliminate their fellow mafiosos and focus on others who are acting strangely. The medics don't have such information. Just keep this in mind when we're talking about the strength of medics.
Ver, I am thinking you would also allow Godfather to pretend to be Vet? Or did you intentionally leave them off the "faking" list so the town has guaranteed townies?
About the targeting, I am wondering if a hybrid of random and direct would be the best solution? For example, the mafia has 5 hits. 2 of them they know will hit 100%. For the other 3, you have a list of 6 people and 3 of them will take hits. This way the mafia will still hit their most important targets (making targeting viable) but they can't directly target a lot of people, potentially finishing all the blues right away.
I also hate clues, but for the moment I feel like they are important to the game. Not necessarily for the information they reveal, but for the discussion they cause within the town. I think they could be eliminated in the future, but I don't like getting rid of anything that causes activity.
Ace, with your mafia KP getting larger as the game goes on, I like the idea, but I'm curious about whether you think the kill power should peak and get smaller again. I'm almost inclined to say no, so the town has a sense of urgency. However, the KP either needs to start small early on or not grow very fast in order for this to be balanced.
Figuring out who will run the next game so they can give their input into this thread would be nice.
I had an idea for making cluecheck a little stronger than what Ver mentioned, basically a yes/no answer to "is player X mafia codename Y or mafia codename Z?" just because I don't think "Is player X mafia codename Y?" is strong enough to ever see use. Moot point if we decide to give the DT inifinite rolechecks or we decide to not do clues. Regardless, it's still a pretty worthless ability as things stand right now.
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The idea with the KP was just thrown out there because I've seen it used in another game where the town starts to realize if they keep messing up shit gets worse exponentially. Of course, that game had Mayor/Pardoner(really good roles if used right) so it was more complex. If anything it should start small always and increase slowly. The good thing for mafia is it allows them to hide inactives since the KP is independent on their members so we either tweak the formula or use a new KP.
Mafia targeting shouldn't be random. It should always work out to kill who the mafia feels they must. It's up to the town to present enough targets to stop that from happening.
As for a guide, possibly but I think it would need to start off with people asking me questions on how things work, what to do in some cases, or pretty much asking just about anything. Most of my insight comes from what happens in specific games and rules I follow on "how to win".
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If we take out vigis I think we should keep in the Mad Hatter. I don't think that role has been played properly yet, which I think is a shame because it's such a cool role
I agree with everyone saying blue (DT, med, etc) actions should be restricted to night (and nonono any-time suicide bomber.... in fact i feel no suicidebomber at all is better in a smaller game).
For mafia targeting, random sounds bad to me and could be a recipe for complaints from the red side. I like the idea that 2 mafia send the gm the name of a person and that person gets hit, as it encourages activity. However the mafia would be punished far worse than the town for inactivity if this system was present, as they would lose valuable kills quickly. Maybe just the required vote/post per game day system, as it requires activity from all players regardless of allegiance.
Also what about having a Miller? If DT's have infinite rolechecks I think the Miller could help balance that out a bit
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Ok. I come back and see the KP arguement back. I am definitely against randomized hits. It puts even more luck into the game that I can't see it helping the game balance/flow.
There is a suggestion for 6/30 mafia with a mafia/2 rounded up kill formula. Now with this formula, the mafia has to take 8 days to win assuming at MOST 1 mafia dies. Most of our discussion is based around the fact that mafia usually comprises 20% of the town. The thing is, if we decrease the mafia size and use the 1:1 KP formula, any mafia death would be significantly worse for the mafia. Increasing mafia size and using the 2:1 KP formula does the opposite, and hurts the town. I think giving the town 8 days to screw up a bit much.
I like the idea of the mafia's increasing kill power. It can solve both our problems at once, which is volatility, and length of the game. One option is a KP of 2 + X where X is the number of days that have passed. (Starts at 0 for night 1, x = 1 for night 2 etc.) 6 mafia members, 30 total, means the mafia can win in theoretically in 5 days.
Day 1: 24 town
Day 2: 22 town left
Day 3: 19 town left
Day 4: 15 town left
Day 5: 10 town left
Day 6: 5 town left - mafia win.
Now obviously this formula allows for a mafia win even if the mafia only has 1 living member on Day 6. So we can adjust this formula 2 ways. One is by decreasing X Every time a mafioso dies. Mafia KP also cannot be greater than their numbers, for the sake of realism. Assuming Ver's no-vigi setup...
What happens if the mafia loses one member per day starting with the day 2 lynch?
Day 1: 23 town left (townie mislynch), 6 mafia
Day 2: 21 town left, 6 mafia
Day 3: 19 town left, 5 mafia - mafia KP now stays at 3 instead of increasing to 4
Day 4: 16 town left, 4 mafia - mafia KP remains at 3
Day 5: 13 town left, 3 mafia - mafia KP remains at 3
Day 6: 10 town left, 2 mafia - mafia KP at 2 (cannot be more than # of mafia remaining)
Day 7: 8 town left, 1 mafia - mafia KP at 1
Day 8: 7 town left, no mafia, town victory
This is way too close an outcome. Even if the town lynches a mafia every single day, they barely escape losing. In fact, if the town had made one mistake and had started consecutively mafia lynching the day after, they would have won on Day 8, having 1 mafia and 1 townie remaining. So if we use a constant + X formula, we will still have to adjust for leaving the town with a margin of error. In this case, the mafia could have revealed itself after day 3 (assuming none of them died) and still win. We cannot afford the mafia the luxury of only hiding the first 3 days. Double lynches + vigis solves the matter. Leaving out Vigis/Double lynch possibilities allows the mafia a greater margin of error. Double Lynch/Vigis give the town a chance of winning in the late game if such an event occurs.
I like this increasing KP formula, but it has to be accompanied by other factors, double lynch/vigis etc.. I'm tired of thinking right now, but I'll post more if this thread picks up again. Larger mafia numbers means town KP must be increased even if mafia KP stays the same.
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Vigis are fine, as long as you don't also put in too many killing roles. Vigis that can act starting Night 2 with 2 shots are perfect.
For the increasing mafia KP you had it right - it can never be greater than the number of mafia alive. To also balance it out, every member of the mafia has to send in a PM so that their kills count. Assuming there are 6 mafia then the formula could be: 6/(1+ #of mafia dead) + X where X is the # of days passed and of course for division purposes you have a 1 in the #of mafia dead case.
Day 1 = 6/(1+0) + 0 = 6
Day 2 = 6/(1 + 1) + 1 = 4
Day 3 = 6/(1 + 2) + 2 = 4
Day 4 = 6/(1 + 3) + 3 = 4 - > 3
This is decent as if the town kills mafia on the first day their KP drops sharply and is constant for the next 2 days (assuming they catch mafia). The town is rewarded in that the mafia KP can never get too strong, and the mafia is ok because losing one member doesn't mean a crazy insane loss of KP.
Now a major problem with this is what if mafia decide to lay low and not kill, but their KP keeps going up?
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^ In your scenario up there, the mafia KP starts out at 6, which I think is not what some people like Ver/Qatol want. We still have the problem of mass blue death in the beginning. Basically the system you just outlined helps to replenish mafia kill power as time goes on.
If the mafia decide to lay low and not kill? Why would they do that? Also their KP does go up, but can't go past 6...
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Here's another idea:
Mafia starts with KP of 4
They may choose to save hits for the next day, for every two hits they save they get an extra hit the following day, plus the hits they saved. However, if a mafia dies, they lose the hit.
ex. day 1 4 hits
they send two hits and keep two
so the day after if no mafia dies they have 7 hits.
However if mafia dies, they lose one saved hit and the bonus hit, resulting in a kp of 5.
if they send one hit and keep 3 they get 8 hits the following day, if mafia dies then they get 8-1 = 7 hits.
If they save all their hits they get 10 hits the following day assuming no mafia dies, otherwise they get 10-1-1=8 hits.
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@Incog: who knows whats going on in the game that may make them want to but there are plenty of times to do so. As for the formula we can change it easily. I'm just not for anything that goes against mass blue killing because that's the fault of the players. It makes no sense to me how anyone can play in such a way that reveals their roles. People should know better that you shouldn't HINT unless you're a DT and it has to be done extremely carefully. Everyone else you either roleclaim or not.
@Caller: saving hits is bad x_x
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On January 21 2009 11:21 Ace wrote:
@Incog: who knows whats going on in the game that may make them want to but there are plenty of times to do so. As for the formula we can change it easily. I'm just not for anything that goes against mass blue killing because that's the fault of the players. It makes no sense to me how anyone can play in such a way that reveals their roles. People should know better that you shouldn't HINT unless you're a DT and it has to be done extremely carefully. Everyone else you either roleclaim or not.
@Caller: saving hits is bad x_x
I completely agree with you. However, player inexperience in the game causes us to have to adjust to keep the game balanced and interesting. Eventually we can work toward a standard 1:1 game. But I think the 2 + X solution is reasonable. We can justify it by making the town's story that the mafia is attempting to start killing people slowly to weaken and incite fear into the town before it goes all out and starts mass murdering people.
We need more input than a few of us if we're going to come up with a solution.
Game:
30 player cap.
Rules: Players who do not vote in the day voting thread get modkilled in the day post the following day.
Blue roles:
DT - infinite rolecheck--may only use his ability at night.
Vigilante - 2 kills possible, 1 per night only on night 2 and on.
Doctor
Vet - two lives.
Governor - can call for a double lynch (1-2?) times in the game. Other than that is a regular townie.
Mafia roles:
Godfather - can appear as any blue of his choice. No conversions.
Capo - Rolechecks, 1 per night. 2-3 uses.
Mafia member
Mafia kill power is equal to 2 + X, where X = # of (mafia) days elapsed since the start of the game.
The mafia wins if their numbers are equal to or outnumber the town.
Town wins if all the mafia are dead.
30 players-
4 Mafia
1 Godfather
1 Capo
2 DTs
1 Vigis
2 Doctors
2 Vets
1 Governor
16 Townies
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That setup looks fine to me except the 2+X thing. I don't think giving the town that handicap or anything that avoids mass blue killing is the way to go. People are just going to have to learn the hard way. Blues aren't THAT important - vocal, smart townies are and should always be the key elements to the game.
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Ok. So you don't want compromise. I'm not the one you need to convince. Lets wait and see what Ver/Qatol + others say.
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yep it's just like Rocky 4 the way I feel about the blues - "If he dies, then he dies" - Drago
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I agree with ace here, blues arent that important when theres full town activity. Mafia killing power has to be related to mafia alive more than days elapsed imo. Also note that we are just speculating here because theres no way to figure how the game could come with forced activity. My humble approach is to start a game with few roles (like the example) and see how it works, and work from there.
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I agree that blues aren't that important, however it is percieved that they are. In many of the recent games, the blues have gotten killed very early and about half the town either starts calling for the town to quit or simply goes inactive. I am afraid that this will happen again. Enforced activity may solve this problem, I don't know about that.
Some people will learn the hard way that they shouldn't have played the blue role that way by simply dying. However, many people who had a blue role and played it poorly likely don't even know what got them killed. For example, in Caller's game, most of the day 1 blues thought they had died because their circle was infiltrated (when really they just made it obvious in their posts that they were blue). Additionally, I don't think that very many people are playing green roles correctly, just because the lists of blues figured out by watching posts has been so accurate. Again, forced activity may resolve this.
I'm just trying to point out potential problems with the setup that we are making. To be honest, I would be willing to go with KP based on mafia count again and hope that the town knows how to play their roles a little better this time. Really I don't think there is a way to predict how a game with forced activity will turn out until after we play one. Maybe Ver has more reasons on why we shouldn't have a KP based on mafia count though.
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When you say KP based on mafia count, you mean 1:1 or 2:1? Because as I recall in the beginning you strongly opposed 1:1?
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I still do, mostly because that makes the game a little too hard to balance in terms of kill power. A lucky lynch day 1 and suddenly the mafia is in a lot of trouble. I was thinking 2:1 is probably a little better for balance
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On January 21 2009 12:25 Qatol wrote:
I still do, mostly because that makes the game a little too hard to balance in terms of kill power. A lucky lynch day 1 and suddenly the mafia is in a lot of trouble. I was thinking 2:1 is probably a little better for balance
If you don't role reveal on death you avoid having this issue, as the town won't know who is mafia/mafia can then abuse that.
Mafia shouldn't have a higher killpower than their total members, otherwise it gets broken.
I think this thread has done alot though for throwing ideas out on the table. I think what it comes down to now, is having prospective hosts sitting down and discussing how they want to approach it and then balance it.
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Germany2896 Posts
Check http://mafiaspiel.de (click on the english flag on the bottom left) for some interesting roles.
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On January 21 2009 12:16 Qatol wrote:
I agree that blues aren't that important, however it is percieved that they are. In many of the recent games, the blues have gotten killed very early and about half the town either starts calling for the town to quit or simply goes inactive. I am afraid that this will happen again. Enforced activity may solve this problem, I don't know about that.
Some people will learn the hard way that they shouldn't have played the blue role that way by simply dying. However, many people who had a blue role and played it poorly likely don't even know what got them killed. For example, in Caller's game, most of the day 1 blues thought they had died because their circle was infiltrated (when really they just made it obvious in their posts that they were blue). Additionally, I don't think that very many people are playing green roles correctly, just because the lists of blues figured out by watching posts has been so accurate. Again, forced activity may resolve this.
I'm just trying to point out potential problems with the setup that we are making. To be honest, I would be willing to go with KP based on mafia count again and hope that the town knows how to play their roles a little better this time. Really I don't think there is a way to predict how a game with forced activity will turn out until after we play one. Maybe Ver has more reasons on why we shouldn't have a KP based on mafia count though.
I still think mafia infiltrated that group in callers mafia, idk really just a thought. However thats not important, for me the only thing that matters from a "good" blue townie is that he dont try to create an inner circle by revealing himself by pm. Any other analisis on someone is just crap, i dont think anyone has the right to say "lol you play so bad". Players can make mistakes under certain circumstances, but maybe the same mistake is a genious move under others.
One example can be my posting history in the recent game, im sure i made stupid moves, but i dont recall that someone "read" my role beforehand, even mikeymoo was decieved by my posting (he thought i was godfather lol) but that was because i never roleclaimed him given the conversion rule+ godfather. The fact is that the approach to each role is simply personal, what i tried to make last game wasnt to make a inner circle but to keep the town alive and as active as i could waiting for the last dt.
Also i want to say this about the "blue analisis" aka ver "sniping blues": its true that ver got a lot of blues in BCs mafia due to posting analisis but that is somehow related to the fact that the % of blues posting was way bigger than greens posting, i dont recall the list and i dont want to critizice vers ability, but lets say ver gave mafia a list of 12 people, i say that no more than 20 people were posting something relevant first day, so it was a good call to start sniping those (and i dont remember ver giving a nonposter in that list). Take in mind that the town has almost always gone inactive from the green side for the reasons stated in the thread, but thats because green activity has never been big either. If the number of greens nonposting is reduced then the abillity for mafia to snipe blues easily will decrease drastically, even if the posting history is considered stupid for a player.
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I apologize if I came off as insulting other people's playing styles. I was just trying to point out that it has been a problem that blues keep revealing themselves and greens keep going silent, making it even easier to pick out the blues. The only people I ever meant to criticize are the people that never post again in the thread once they get a green role (i.e. the inactives).
Again, I think that forced activity may help things somewhat, but I also want to emphasize that the greens HAVE to post and be active. If they simply vote each day and are otherwise silent in the thread, then blues will be sniped again because they tend to be more active and helpful. Otherwise, I think we are basically just agreeing on everything haha.
Just because you might be curious, I was talking to Ver during the time right after the first mafia kills in Callers game. He told me that they had informants in every circle EXCEPT the one where all the blues died (incognito in one, showtime! in the other).
BC, I don't think no role reveal really does address the day 1 lucky lynch of a mafioso. The problem is that we are trying to balance based on KP. If the mafia lose a KP before they ever get to even use it, they are FAR weaker. This is why I am pushing for a 2:1 mafia:KP ratio and an odd number of mafiosos or rounding up. This way, mafia KP cannot be reduced on day 1 and balance in the long run is easier to manage. All that no role reveal does is hide from the town that the mafia are hurting.
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On January 22 2009 03:25 Qatol wrote:
BC, I don't think no role reveal really does address the day 1 lucky lynch of a mafioso. The problem is that we are trying to balance based on KP. If the mafia lose a KP before they ever get to even use it, they are FAR weaker. This is why I am pushing for a 2:1 mafia:KP ratio and an odd number of mafiosos or rounding up. This way, mafia KP cannot be reduced on day 1 and balance in the long run is easier to manage. All that no role reveal does is hide from the town that the mafia are hurting.
The issue with that is more, if the town gets a lucky kill, they get a lucky kill. In my game you guys killed Ver day 1 lynch, yet mafia still managed to win the game. It puts the mafia at a slight disadvantage yes, but thats part of the game. Just give them an even # amount of mafia rounded up, one of them dies they still have the ssame KP first night.
Remember that a town can get unlucky with this as well as any blue role could be lost.
for example(this is incog's list from this page)
4 Mafia
1 Godfather
1 Capo
2 DTs
1 Vigis
2 Doctors
2 Vets
1 Governor
16 Townies
for players
Day 1 lynch kills a mafia, but as there are 6 of them, they keep KP of 3(or you can give each mafia a kp and in that case they would lose one)
Which sucks for mafia and puts them at a disadvantage, however, if you don't role reveal on death, the town will not know they killed a mafia member, and the mafia although down a member, are not as bad of shape as they could be.
Day 1 lynch kills a dt, or vig. Town ends up at a horrrible disadvantage, losing their 1 KP at night, or a valuable role checker. This for the town is horrifically bad loss for day 1.
For day 1 lynch to not suck for either side, an inactive green, or just a retard player has to be lynched first. Otherwise either side gets hurt.
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BC i think the first lynch is just like that, its a random event in the game since theres nothing to work with. Im fine with that, its just a setup for the rest of the game (im thinking something like chess or even starcraft) theres no way to keep always a balance. And im against unrevealed death roles and covered number of roles, that hurt the town mostly since the basic idea under mafia has always been (imo) how to coordinate a big number of people uninformed vs a small number informed. Think abut callers mafia, if the town doesnt know that theres 1 or 2 less dts then they are not only fucked because of the lack of dt but because they dont know it. The town needs all the public info the game can provide about the death roles. And please let the mess of first day going, as i said its just part of the game, if someone roleclaims first day and call to lynch x then let it be, dont restrict the power to the 2 days.
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On January 22 2009 04:40 malongo wrote:
BC i think the first lynch is just like that, its a random event in the game since theres nothing to work with. Im fine with that, its just a setup for the rest of the game (im thinking something like chess or even starcraft) theres no way to keep always a balance. And im against unrevealed death roles and covered number of roles, that hurt the town mostly since the basic idea under mafia has always been (imo) how to coordinate a big number of people uninformed vs a small number informed. Think abut callers mafia, if the town doesnt know that theres 1 or 2 less dts then they are not only fucked because of the lack of dt but because they dont know it. The town needs all the public info the game can provide about the death roles. And please let the mess of first day going, as i said its just part of the game, if someone roleclaims first day and call to lynch x then let it be, dont restrict the power to the 2 days.
You dont have to hide how many roles there are, just don't reveal who has which. You could easily say
2 of 2 dts
6 of 6 mafia
etc..
If say night 2 goes by, vig hits mafia, mafia kills some townies and a dt.
next day just update the counters. The town knows a mafia is dead(but not who) and the mafia knows a dt is dead(but again not who)
This kinda gets rid of the idea of no role reveal, but like, If i was mafia and i kill bob and ralph. I know bob is friends with frank and joe. I also killed ralph, who i know is friends with blane and jane. If i i know one of those 2 people is a dt, i still have to figure out if a) which one was it and b) eliminate his small group cause of it.
In most cases however, the mafia will be killing 2-4 people at least in a mafia game, so the open endedness of it can easily have a blue hide inside a group of greens and feed them info. or the like.
As it stands now, people are way to obvious with their role, greens don't like playing as they have nothing to do(elite blue circle jerk). If they are the dominant group, they should have more power than blues, and blues be the people trying to help them succeed. Mafia by knowing the roles of people on death have a way to easy time picking off blues as they tend to cluster towards one and other.
Also, main reason i like no role reveal on death. In a town you have mafia, townie, and townies with a job. The mafia has hidden itself in the town and no one knows who they are, cept other mafia. the townies with abilities have done the same thing(cept they only know themselves).
if you lynch someone, how does anyone know their role? We always have them turn colour, but its not like we would normally know, so it adds a sense of realism to it.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
While smaller games tend to promote activity, larger games promote balance. Larger games reduce the significance of a life ie losing one mafia is not as bad under a large game as it is in a small game or losing 1 DT isn't as bad if you still have 3 left. On top of that it reduces the impact of random lynches on the first day (as already alluded to). Larger games are better for the mafia though, as they add confusion/chaos and make mafia less visible and clue checking significantly harder.
Inactive management then becomes a problem, and how you want to deal with that. However, I found that mass PMs (ez if you know what you're doing) and activity from the Mafia host (ie little delays) can really make a huge difference in combating the inactives and generating activity.
So yea, if you guys are going to run a new game i suggest you make it a large game
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On January 22 2009 04:58 Plexa wrote:
While smaller games tend to promote activity, larger games promote balance. Larger games reduce the significance of a life ie losing one mafia is not as bad under a large game as it is in a small game or losing 1 DT isn't as bad if you still have 3 left. On top of that it reduces the impact of random lynches on the first day (as already alluded to). Larger games are better for the mafia though, as they add confusion/chaos and make mafia less visible and clue checking significantly harder.
Inactive management then becomes a problem, and how you want to deal with that. However, I found that mass PMs (ez if you know what you're doing) and activity from the Mafia host (ie little delays) can really make a huge difference in combating the inactives and generating activity.
So yea, if you guys are going to run a new game i suggest you make it a large game
can we convince you to play in the next one?
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On January 22 2009 04:58 Plexa wrote:
While smaller games tend to promote activity, larger games promote balance. Larger games reduce the significance of a life ie losing one mafia is not as bad under a large game as it is in a small game or losing 1 DT isn't as bad if you still have 3 left. On top of that it reduces the impact of random lynches on the first day (as already alluded to). Larger games are better for the mafia though, as they add confusion/chaos and make mafia less visible and clue checking significantly harder.
Inactive management then becomes a problem, and how you want to deal with that. However, I found that mass PMs (ez if you know what you're doing) and activity from the Mafia host (ie little delays) can really make a huge difference in combating the inactives and generating activity.
So yea, if you guys are going to run a new game i suggest you make it a large game
Larger games also favor mafia in another way. Since there is only one lynch a day, it takes the town considerably longer than a smaller game to eliminate the mafia BEFORE they kill off a bunch of townies. There are simply more people who need to be lynched. So regardless of the mafia kill power, they stay around longer than they would in a small game. Thus the game is balanced by adding more KP for the town (vigi/mad hatter) or more double lynches. Hence larger games require more blue roles depending on the mafia:town ratio. Pretty much this whole discussion does go back to activity. However, I'm not sure if keeping the game the way it is now can enforce activity even with short delays and mass PMs. Like Ace + others said, blues shouldn't be crucial to the game. By increasing the size of the game, you inadvertently make blues increasingly necessary for the game balance. When they go, you have a bigger problem than you do if you have a smaller game. This of course affects the killing/double lynch roles the most, but the general concept still applies. DT role checking power is diluted, which also favors the mafia. (Or smaller games favor the DTs, whichever way you want to look at it).
Of course in an ideal situation where everyone is active, then yes, large games probably are better for the balance. But then if we did have an ideal game situation, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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On January 22 2009 06:36 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2009 04:58 Plexa wrote:
While smaller games tend to promote activity, larger games promote balance. Larger games reduce the significance of a life ie losing one mafia is not as bad under a large game as it is in a small game or losing 1 DT isn't as bad if you still have 3 left. On top of that it reduces the impact of random lynches on the first day (as already alluded to). Larger games are better for the mafia though, as they add confusion/chaos and make mafia less visible and clue checking significantly harder.
Inactive management then becomes a problem, and how you want to deal with that. However, I found that mass PMs (ez if you know what you're doing) and activity from the Mafia host (ie little delays) can really make a huge difference in combating the inactives and generating activity.
So yea, if you guys are going to run a new game i suggest you make it a large game Larger games also favor mafia in another way. Since there is only one lynch a day, it takes the town considerably longer than a smaller game to eliminate the mafia BEFORE they kill off a bunch of townies. There are simply more people who need to be lynched. So regardless of the mafia kill power, they stay around longer than they would in a small game. Thus the game is balanced by adding more KP for the town (vigi/mad hatter) or more double lynches. Hence larger games require more blue roles depending on the mafia:town ratio. Pretty much this whole discussion does go back to activity. However, I'm not sure if keeping the game the way it is now can enforce activity even with short delays and mass PMs. Like Ace + others said, blues shouldn't be crucial to the game. By increasing the size of the game, you inadvertently make blues increasingly necessary for the game balance. When they go, you have a bigger problem than you do if you have a smaller game. This of course affects the killing/double lynch roles the most, but the general concept still applies. DT role checking power is diluted, which also favors the mafia. (Or smaller games favor the DTs, whichever way you want to look at it). Of course in an ideal situation where everyone is active, then yes, large games probably are better for the balance. But then if we did have an ideal game situation, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
In a larger game you do need more blue roles, but just make sure there are significantly more greens. Say you have 50 players, 8-10 mafia, 8-10 blues. thats 16-20 people with a role, and then 30 without.
so out of your town you have 10 roles, 30 greens. or very similar ideas. Just make sure the amount of blues doesnt become to overpowering.
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right @ BC. Basically while the town should always have the way to kill mafia at night it should never be too much AND there have to be a large number of greens. Large greens = mafia have to think about hits instead of knowing there's a good chance they'll hit a blue.
Right now I think the general consensus is almost reached on how many blues/mafia need to be in a given game. iirc the rule was 1 mafia for every 2-4 townies. Now the thing to do is tweak DTs which heavily depend on what other roles are being used (Gf with role claim I've never played before) and also how many mafia are playing. Vote checks make sense when their are very large games because time wise the game will get boring trying to 1 by 1 find mafia. For small-medium games it isn't needed.
Vet lives are easy to balance also, usually don't want them to take up ridiculous mafia KP and you want their lives to at least match minimum mafia KP.
Vigis are fine with 2 shots. It's when you have too many of them that it becomes a problem.
Double Lynch is needed and I agree with it. I'd prefer the Mayor/Pardoner way where you add in Agents of Chaos but of course this may be going off on "too many roles to get used to" playing style.
Either way I like where this discussion is going and I think we'll be ready for a new game in a couple of weeks. I won't be hosting anymore though because I'd rather play
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Assume a very small game. 20 people. 1 DT, 1 medic, 1 vigi, 1 vet. 4 mafia. Now for argument's sake, lets assume a 1:1 kill ratio.
Day 1: 15 town - Oh no! A vigi was lynched!
Day 2: 11 town - but a mafia is lynched.
Day 3: 8 town - another mafia is lynched.
Day 4: 6 town - another mafia is lynched.
Day 5: 5 town, town wins.
So town wins even if their vigi is lost. Lets amplify the situation by 3x.
60 people, 3 DTs, 3 medics, 3 vigis, 3 vets, 12 mafia.
Day 1: 47 town - vigi mislynch
Day 2: 35 town - all the medics and two vigis die, mafia is lynched. 11 mafia remaining.
Day 3: 24 town - mafia is lyched...but see how the town can't win even with a mafia lynch every day.
If we change the mafia KP to 2:1, we still have problems if vigis are killed in the beginning. Of course there is a lesser chance of all the vigis dying in one night, but it happens. But you get the point. Bigger game you have lesser chances of lucky hits, but when it does hit, it gets nasty very quickly. I'd post more here but I have to go. I'l be back later.
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For the next host, is the general consensus this:
Have Chuiu Host
In the case he doesn't
Have me Host?
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I'd be willing to host, but apparently other people do.
Do we have a consensus on whether we will have a small game (30) or large game (50)?
I would be ok with the mayor/pardonner plan in a big game, although I am concerned that it might encourage secret circles, which we are trying to avoid. In small games it could be ok as long as we weaken the roles obviously.
About no role reveal. I like BC's idea with naming what roles died but not who was what role. But I think for simplicity's sake we should wait for no role reveal until maybe next game. We should probably get activity and other problems sorted out first.
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Sydney2287 Posts
I would be interested to see Chuiu's input in this, does anyone know if he's around?
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ahahaha at this rate theres going to be more people interested in hosting a mafia rather than playing. I really think Plexa missed the kind of inactivity we are talking about: its not that people dont post much, its that greens simply dissapear after night 1, so i think a smaller game is consensus. And im still against "no role reveal". It kills the small amount of info the town can get from the players behavior.
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One thing good about no role reveal is that it has the potential to cause people NOT to form secret circles, because if you were in any way attempting to say that you know something because you are in a circle and know stuff, then people will never know that you actually are blue/have a secret circle. For all they know it could be the mafia pretending to have a secret circle. That is one thing going for no role reveal. However, I think we should stick with regular role reveal for now.
What happened to Ver?
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So what I gathered from reading so far is that we are not modding the DT powers? I have been kind of out of it for the most part and not been reading. But it looks like we left DT rolecheck intact, instead of replacing it with role finder or anything. I think we should try that out in a small game and see how we like it. I am okay with experimenting with a 30 person game just to see how it plays out. I really wanted to see how a capo/dt game with role finder would pan out. DT = Role finder Capo = Role Check.
I am kind of indifferent towards who hosts the game, Chuiu and BC seemed to do the best at it, so if one of them would like to, I am okay with it.
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On January 22 2009 09:46 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
So what I gathered from reading so far is that we are not modding the DT powers? I have been kind of out of it for the most part and not been reading. But it looks like we left DT rolecheck intact, instead of replacing it with role finder or anything. I think we should try that out in a small game and see how we like it. I am okay with experimenting with a 30 person game just to see how it plays out. I really wanted to see how a capo/dt game with role finder would pan out. DT = Role finder Capo = Role Check.
I am kind of indifferent towards who hosts the game, Chuiu and BC seemed to do the best at it, so if one of them would like to, I am okay with it.
Here is the problem I have with role finder. Lets say we are going to go with like 2 DT 1 vigi 2 medics 2 vets - basically, suggested numbers from earlier posts in the thread. Day 1 both DT rolefind vigi. You now have both DT and the vigi in contact. Day 2 one DT rolefinds medic seed 1 one DT rolefinds medic seed 2. You have all DT vigi and medics in a circle right now. Day 3 you do the same with the vets.
Basically, by day 3, you have the ultimate blue "secret circle" thanks entirely to rolefinder. (Note this is not entirely reliant upon 1 vigi, you could just have the thread agree on a role and seed number for both DTs to search using and get similar results). I think we are trying to avoid having secret circles if at all possible at least for the moment so we can try and have an active game instead of just having instructions come down from on high (in this case, probably through vets or people protected by medics). Therefore, at least for the current game, I am against rolefinder.
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Yeah this is the same reason why I have a problem with rolefinder...
Are we going to have a role that can only call double lynches or have another system?
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So I don't know if I want to run a game anytime soon, I'm pretty busy with work during this time of the year. If BC wants to team up we could probably run a game between the two of us.
The setup I was thinking for my next game would be around 50 players again but this time everyone would have a watered down role. For this reason vigilante would be removed because there really is no way to water down that role and effectively keep it interesting. I would love feedback on them:
Detective: Each day can ask if a clue points to a specific player.
Paramedic: Can keep a target player alive but cannot act two consecutive nights in a row.
Veteran: Can gain one extra life per night OR can gain one extra vote per day. Each day the player chooses one.
Private Eye: Can reveal the role of one player OR do a vote count once a game.
Mad Hatter: Can place a bomb on a target player. Anytime the Mad Hatter dies the target player dies with him. Additionally the Mad Hatter may choose to 'suicide' bomb into the target player the night after he chooses his target. Must wait till the next night to move the bomb.
Town: The following are abilities the town can vote on. Actions happen if the majority of players voting that day also vote for a single option. (ie: If there are 40 total votes to lynch people you would need 21 votes on one of these options to use them) Options cannot be used two consecutive days in a row and only three are allowed per game. (ie: two double lynches and an overtime or overtime, sanctuary, and one double lynch or any combination thereof)
Double Lynch: Lynch an additional player the following day, can only be used twice.
Overtime: Give players double actions the following day/night. This does not work for Private Eye or Mad Hatter. Can only be used once.
Sanctuary: Prevents the deaths of a specific type of blue that following night. Can only be used once. ie: Everyone votes on Sanctuary for Veteran then that night anytime mafia or mad hatters target a Veteran it does nothing.
Mafia: Nothing changes here.
Don: Can order only one of the following once a game:
Overkill: Mafia can double their hits one night.
Snakeskin: Cannot be the target of Private Eye role checks, Detective clue checks, or Mad Hatter attacks for the next two days. If a blue attempts one of these they will simply be denied, it does not matter if they are targeting mafia.
Backlash: On the following day whenever a player uses a special ability it works as if the mafia used the ability on the player instead. Quick summary: clue checks do nothing, medic covers random mafia players, veterans vote for their targets but random mafia will gain extra lives, private eyes are revealed to mafia or their vote check goes to show how many private eyes voted for the player, and mad hatters place a bomb on themselves. These happen if and only if the players in question use their abilities and no player will be notified of the change until the day after.
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Chuiu, my thoughts on your roles:
Detective: too weak. We have been discussing the cluecheck ability a little earlier in the thread and made it slightly stronger (though not much). My problem with the current cluecheck ability is that the town often winds up deciding fluff is a clue, making the cluecheck ability totally worthless. This was why I suggested we change this to connecting a player to a mafioso code name (still weak and based on clue analysis, but you don't have to worry about "Is this a clue?" quite so much)
Paramedic: This one seems fine to me
Veteran: Could be used to give confirmed townies which can then be given multiple night lives. Strong role (maybe too strong?) if played correctly with medics
Private Eye: I don't see why they would ever do a role reveal when there is the chance to get a votecheck instead. We have proven that votechecks can be MUCH stronger.
Mad Hatter: Seems like a nice change to me
Double Lynch/Overtime/Sanctuary: Good ideas, I think these will need more discussion
Don's abilities: at first glance, Overkill seems REALLY strong, but the others might be about as strong. They are definitely stronger than the town abilities (though this might be intentional?)
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On January 25 2009 15:22 Chuiu wrote:
The setup I was thinking for my next game would be around 50 players again but this time everyone would have a watered down role.
I don't know if this is a good idea. What will the role distribution be? I feel that although I like the Town options and the mafia options, giving too many people roles might not have the effect we want.
DT sounds useless, like Qatol says.
Overtime...does this affect mafia kill count too?
Sanctuary might be OP depending on how many of each role you plan on giving. Because if everyone has a watered down blue role, you might make a large portion of the town invincible for a night.
I don't know if leaving out Vigis is a good idea, but depending on how many mad hatters you have it could be ok.
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On January 28 2009 04:41 Qatol wrote:
Chuiu, my thoughts on your roles:
Detective: too weak. We have been discussing the cluecheck ability a little earlier in the thread and made it slightly stronger (though not much). My problem with the current cluecheck ability is that the town often winds up deciding fluff is a clue, making the cluecheck ability totally worthless. This was why I suggested we change this to connecting a player to a mafioso code name (still weak and based on clue analysis, but you don't have to worry about "Is this a clue?" quite so much)
I think the one issue the town was having however was that they were trying to figure out how ace, myself and caller wrote clues in the end. Chuiu's method of writing clues is defined and won't be as badly scewed for this.
Note as well: In my game, there were people who had nailed down each clue exactly and were ignored by people who were spamming bad analysis. It comes down to who should you listen to in a game. IE (assume both people analyzing are town for this) If (no offence here) Malongo tells me ace is a mafia based on x analysis, and plexa tells me ver is based off x analysis I will almost always lynch ver first.
The town was being led around by people who although were trying hard to analyze, just sucked at it. Each person has an advantage they can play in a game like this, some people do an amazing job drawing people out of the woodworks, others analyze clues, some analyze behaviour (fuck some people just watch who votes for who and sees a trend and nails them that way). There are many forms a player can contribute to the game, and i still believe clue analysis is a good trait(if people can do it accurately).
On January 25 2009 15:22 Chuiu wrote:
So I don't know if I want to run a game anytime soon, I'm pretty busy with work during this time of the year. If BC wants to team up we could probably run a game between the two of us.
The setup I was thinking for my next game would be around 50 players again but this time everyone would have a watered down role. For this reason vigilante would be removed because there really is no way to water down that role and effectively keep it interesting. I would love feedback on them:
Detective: Each day can ask if a clue points to a specific player.
Paramedic: Can keep a target player alive but cannot act two consecutive nights in a row.
Veteran: Can gain one extra life per night OR can gain one extra vote per day. Each day the player chooses one.
Private Eye: Can reveal the role of one player OR do a vote count once a game.
Mad Hatter: Can place a bomb on a target player. Anytime the Mad Hatter dies the target player dies with him. Additionally the Mad Hatter may choose to 'suicide' bomb into the target player the night after he chooses his target. Must wait till the next night to move the bomb.
Town: The following are abilities the town can vote on. Actions happen if the majority of players voting that day also vote for a single option. (ie: If there are 40 total votes to lynch people you would need 21 votes on one of these options to use them) Options cannot be used two consecutive days in a row and only three are allowed per game. (ie: two double lynches and an overtime or overtime, sanctuary, and one double lynch or any combination thereof)
Double Lynch: Lynch an additional player the following day, can only be used twice.
Overtime: Give players double actions the following day/night. This does not work for Private Eye or Mad Hatter. Can only be used once.
Sanctuary: Prevents the deaths of a specific type of blue that following night. Can only be used once. ie: Everyone votes on Sanctuary for Veteran then that night anytime mafia or mad hatters target a Veteran it does nothing.
Mafia: Nothing changes here.
Don: Can order only one of the following once a game:
Overkill: Mafia can double their hits one night.
Snakeskin: Cannot be the target of Private Eye role checks, Detective clue checks, or Mad Hatter attacks for the next two days. If a blue attempts one of these they will simply be denied, it does not matter if they are targeting mafia.
Backlash: On the following day whenever a player uses a special ability it works as if the mafia used the ability on the player instead. Quick summary: clue checks do nothing, medic covers random mafia players, veterans vote for their targets but random mafia will gain extra lives, private eyes are revealed to mafia or their vote check goes to show how many private eyes voted for the player, and mad hatters place a bomb on themselves. These happen if and only if the players in question use their abilities and no player will be notified of the change until the day after.
Unlike most people, I like the idea of clues, so i like the idea behind the reworked detective, just takes someone who can use the role to use it to its fullest, what i would suggest as well however, is adding another ability to it:
Allow them to once a game follow a target player at night(this nulls their clue check ability for 2 nights). If that player performs a night action, you are informed with a general writeup of what you observed(ie you follow player X to a house, he looks around and slips in through the backdoor) or the like.
It would add a bit more flair to the character, and not really give them any intel other than they found another blue/or a red(but they wouldnt know which).
Medic, Private eye, Veteran, and hatter have a nice rework, very smooth.
I like that the town gets rewarded now for playing in the form of town powers. They are also not too overwhelming.
The mafia powers are where some issue might be. Overkill and snakeskin aren't too bad (well overkill is nasty so i would say limit it being used till like day 2+ or the like) But Backlash is more the issue.
It basically gives the mafia insane intel on some of the more important roles as you mentioned private eyes being given up to the mafia(the exact roles shouldnt be shown) you also have listed how many PI's voted for a list, that wouldnt be too bad. Also, the hatter shouldn't have his bomb thrown on himself unless hes informed, rather just have it fail or the like, or have it thrown randomly on a green/blue. The other groups dont get screwed over as hard.
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i think chuius proposed setup still has to deal with inactivity unless vote is mandatory, so im not sure if this is the best. I like the clues and dt cluer only makes sense and could work. About the rest of the roles it really depends on the numbers of each people, but the veteran looks broken: at day 3 you have 4 lives veterans wich are almost inmortal, just remember how hard was to take a 3 lives veteran in BCs game. Also i dont like the idea of "town abilities", its like a shared ability with the mafia, it looks like the town is having more power (thus increasing green interest) but in reality this wont change things too much.
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If the point of watering down roles is to get more people blue roles, we make separate roles for tracking people, like BC's DT example.
Informant: Can spy on a person once a night, but not on consecutive nights. Is notified if he person leaves the house to do a night action.
Spy: Can spy on a person once a night, but not on consecutive nights. Is notified if the person is visited during the night.
Friendly Neighbor: Can visit a person once a night, but not on consecutive nights. Is notified about who visits that person, who leaves the house, etc. The Friendly neighbor may be framed in the day post saying that he was seen at the house of person X.
Friendly Neighbor may be OP. It is a suggestion if you are going to go out with mass blue roles. However I'm not sure mass blues is the way to go, even if they are watered down. Town options are good though because they require activity to activate. However, I think it might be better to tone it down a bit and only allow double lynches as a town option. Make it like the mayors roles in other games. 4 double lynches total, that's it. This option would remove the need for a mayor-like figure and removes the possibility of the town getting owned because of a dead mayor/mafia mayor.
On January 25 2009 15:22 Chuiu wrote:
Town: The following are abilities the town can vote on. Actions happen if the majority of players voting that day also vote for a single option. (ie: If there are 40 total votes to lynch people you would need 21 votes on one of these options to use them) Options cannot be used two consecutive days in a row and only three are allowed per game. (ie: two double lynches and an overtime or overtime, sanctuary, and one double lynch or any combination thereof)
A few questions, you need a majority to activate options and lynches or just options? Also do abstentions count towards the total vote count or are they just disregarded?
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 28 2009 05:49 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2009 04:41 Qatol wrote:
Chuiu, my thoughts on your roles:
Detective: too weak. We have been discussing the cluecheck ability a little earlier in the thread and made it slightly stronger (though not much). My problem with the current cluecheck ability is that the town often winds up deciding fluff is a clue, making the cluecheck ability totally worthless. This was why I suggested we change this to connecting a player to a mafioso code name (still weak and based on clue analysis, but you don't have to worry about "Is this a clue?" quite so much)
I think the one issue the town was having however was that they were trying to figure out how ace, myself and caller wrote clues in the end. Chuiu's method of writing clues is defined and won't be as badly scewed for this. Note as well: In my game, there were people who had nailed down each clue exactly and were ignored by people who were spamming bad analysis. It comes down to who should you listen to in a game. IE (assume both people analyzing are town for this) If (no offence here) Malongo tells me ace is a mafia based on x analysis, and plexa tells me ver is based off x analysis I will almost always lynch ver first. The town was being led around by people who although were trying hard to analyze, just sucked at it. Each person has an advantage they can play in a game like this, some people do an amazing job drawing people out of the woodworks, others analyze clues, some analyze behaviour (fuck some people just watch who votes for who and sees a trend and nails them that way). There are many forms a player can contribute to the game, and i still believe clue analysis is a good trait(if people can do it accurately). Show nested quote +On January 25 2009 15:22 Chuiu wrote:
So I don't know if I want to run a game anytime soon, I'm pretty busy with work during this time of the year. If BC wants to team up we could probably run a game between the two of us.
The setup I was thinking for my next game would be around 50 players again but this time everyone would have a watered down role. For this reason vigilante would be removed because there really is no way to water down that role and effectively keep it interesting. I would love feedback on them:
Detective: Each day can ask if a clue points to a specific player.
Paramedic: Can keep a target player alive but cannot act two consecutive nights in a row.
Veteran: Can gain one extra life per night OR can gain one extra vote per day. Each day the player chooses one.
Private Eye: Can reveal the role of one player OR do a vote count once a game.
Mad Hatter: Can place a bomb on a target player. Anytime the Mad Hatter dies the target player dies with him. Additionally the Mad Hatter may choose to 'suicide' bomb into the target player the night after he chooses his target. Must wait till the next night to move the bomb.
Town: The following are abilities the town can vote on. Actions happen if the majority of players voting that day also vote for a single option. (ie: If there are 40 total votes to lynch people you would need 21 votes on one of these options to use them) Options cannot be used two consecutive days in a row and only three are allowed per game. (ie: two double lynches and an overtime or overtime, sanctuary, and one double lynch or any combination thereof)
Double Lynch: Lynch an additional player the following day, can only be used twice.
Overtime: Give players double actions the following day/night. This does not work for Private Eye or Mad Hatter. Can only be used once.
Sanctuary: Prevents the deaths of a specific type of blue that following night. Can only be used once. ie: Everyone votes on Sanctuary for Veteran then that night anytime mafia or mad hatters target a Veteran it does nothing.
Mafia: Nothing changes here.
Don: Can order only one of the following once a game:
Overkill: Mafia can double their hits one night.
Snakeskin: Cannot be the target of Private Eye role checks, Detective clue checks, or Mad Hatter attacks for the next two days. If a blue attempts one of these they will simply be denied, it does not matter if they are targeting mafia.
Backlash: On the following day whenever a player uses a special ability it works as if the mafia used the ability on the player instead. Quick summary: clue checks do nothing, medic covers random mafia players, veterans vote for their targets but random mafia will gain extra lives, private eyes are revealed to mafia or their vote check goes to show how many private eyes voted for the player, and mad hatters place a bomb on themselves. These happen if and only if the players in question use their abilities and no player will be notified of the change until the day after. Unlike most people, I like the idea of clues, so i like the idea behind the reworked detective, just takes someone who can use the role to use it to its fullest, what i would suggest as well however, is adding another ability to it: Allow them to once a game follow a target player at night(this nulls their clue check ability for 2 nights). If that player performs a night action, you are informed with a general writeup of what you observed(ie you follow player X to a house, he looks around and slips in through the backdoor) or the like. It would add a bit more flair to the character, and not really give them any intel other than they found another blue/or a red(but they wouldnt know which). Medic, Private eye, Veteran, and hatter have a nice rework, very smooth. I like that the town gets rewarded now for playing in the form of town powers. They are also not too overwhelming. The mafia powers are where some issue might be. Overkill and snakeskin aren't too bad (well overkill is nasty so i would say limit it being used till like day 2+ or the like) But Backlash is more the issue. It basically gives the mafia insane intel on some of the more important roles as you mentioned private eyes being given up to the mafia(the exact roles shouldnt be shown) you also have listed how many PI's voted for a list, that wouldnt be too bad. Also, the hatter shouldn't have his bomb thrown on himself unless hes informed, rather just have it fail or the like, or have it thrown randomly on a green/blue. The other groups dont get screwed over as hard.
BC although I agree that Chuiu's method of writing clues is much more defined and thus easier to figure out, I'm still curious about what you think is wrong with my modification to the DT role. It isn't like I'm really making the ability THAT much stronger, and you still have to rely on clue analysis. The only case I can think of where it would really make a difference is if you have clues to mafiosos whose codename doesn't show up in the day post.
I'd like to see some more opinions about the new Vet. It seems to me that they will be used just like elders were at the end of mafia 1 (confirmed townie) except I can see people trying to form a town society using the role. This isn't necessarily bad because the vet has to be using his extra vote ability instead of the extra life in order to confirm himself, but I could see the medics all watching this vet after he proves himself innocent. Just something to keep in mind when choosing the number of mafiosos.
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Maybe RoleFinder should be limited more so to be implemented? I see what you guys mean, perhaps change it to like find a friend or something, where it just generates a random towny role for the DT. That would greatly reduce its strength and prevent the day one role calling stupidity.
I will try to read rest of this tomorrow when I get home then provide some more input. I only have around a page to catch up on.
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To answer some concerns/questions:
DT's: I don't feel clue checking is weak especially when you consider there will be a much larger number of detectives in the coming game.
Overtime is for blues only, mafia abilities and town abilities are separately aligned.
Overkill: I agree the ability is strong very early in the game. It will be changed so that mafia cannot use it before the third day.
Not related to my setup but I don't like the rolefinder ability. In every other role what you find is the player has to actively search out a target for his ability whereas with the rolefinder you just say a number and get free info.
Backlash I'm willing to change so that their role check does nothing instead of revealing who they are to mafia. I'm not really sure at this point though because the mafia only get to use ONE of these three abilities and I want to make them equally appealing. And the last line of the role states players will be notified of the backlash the day after so Mad Hatter would know the bomb was placed on him so he can change afterwords.
Malongo. that's not how the veteran role works. He either has an extra life or an extra vote per day. He doesn't gain an extra life each time he uses it he's just gaining one extra hit protected per night. And once he's hit once by the mafia (provided he's using the extra life) he loses it and can't use it again. Also there is no effective way to combat inactivity without replacing people when they go active and I think we've seen that doesn't work very well and every game is going to suffer from it in some way or another. Finally there are no greens, just blues and reds; which I hope will actually encourage more players to be active.
Incognito, I don't want to really include more roles at this point but I'll keep looking for ways of making more interesting but also watered down roles. As for the voting the lynching happens like normally but the special ability vote must be more than half of the total lynch votes and no abstainers are not counted. So that means if there are three people that are being voted on for lynching, 1 vote for one of them, 6 votes for another, and 8 votes for the final one then the total vote count would be 15 and the number needed to use a special ability would be 8.
Qatol, the elder was never a really good role which is why I stopped using it. And, yes, the veteran isn't very interesting. But the point of both of these roles is to give the player more room to throw his weight around, to make himself heard. Veterans work best when they can find a detective or some strong source of mafia-revealing information and communicate it to the group because they have the extra lives to survive through, in this case, one mafia hit.
Also I was thinking of letting the Private Eye get one use of both his abilities but add a two day delay between them. I feel that giving him one use will just keep him interested up until that point and then he'll probably go inactive after that.
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Everyone has blue roles, hmm...I'm still not sure giving everyone a role is a good thing. But we gotta try something.
Anyway, everyone having blue roles means sanctuary can be OP. Chuiu can you post a role distribution list? Also will you have mandatory voting? Perhaps mandatory voting + blue roles can keep the game more streamlined and active. This game is important because I think that if this game turns out bad with inactivity, we'll be losing a lot of players.
Also for clarification is the Don like godfathers in other games or just a regular mafia who can order mafia options?
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On March 23 2013 08:35 Acrofales wrote:You know there's a TL Mafia Miscellaneous chat thread for exactly this purpose, right? No need to necro threads from 2009. EDIT: here
Yeah actually forgot about the thing while looking for some offtopic-stuff and didn't consider it cause it looked like a Game, not a discussion thread.
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You know there's a TL Mafia Miscellaneous chat thread for exactly this purpose, right? No need to necro threads from 2009.
EDIT: here
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I agree with the OP, the DT role is very necessary for a mafia game.
But I don't think vigs are that overpowered like he said. I mean, they always hit town in average so it kind of balances it out.
The GF is more effective when he just appears as "Town" though. Making him choose what to appear as makes it less "immersive" I think, like too complex and shit.
On January 15 2009 16:24 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 15:45 Ver wrote:
How do we deal with the day 1 dt roleclaim 'you mafia' rubbish? Insane DTs? DTs cannot act until day 2? Millers? Balancing DTs is also an important issue. Are votelists (with extreme measures put on them) ok conceptually (i,e do they reward good things or does it just dumb down the game)? Give them infinite rolechecks? Make cluechecks not suck? My idea before mafia 5(or 6) was to change rolechecks to not identify regular mafia members at all (mafia = townie) and give DTs an infinite number of them. Still useful for finding blues, but no more day 1 DT roleclaim bs. I think the votelists are the most exciting part of the game (especially when you're on one with a bunch of mafia), plus it's much easier to analyze clues for a list of 5 or so people than trying to pour through 50+ profiles. As for veteran players getting picked off by the mafia early, either hand out more medic roles (and no fucking suicide bomber) or perhaps just make the veterans... veterans. Ver, Ace, Camlito, BC, mikey, etc. get an extra life just to discourage the mafia from whacking them all by day 2.
This guy is crazy, why would a DT check on D1?
I'd like to hear your arguments for it Shadow guy!
I give you 2 days.
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On March 23 2013 10:13 grush57 wrote:
i hope ur joking gonzaw
stap spamming, you have to add smething to the discussion, the TL Mafia Discussion
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EPT![[image loading]](http://manishchawley.com/calvin-hobbes/ch900815.gif)
