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If we take out vigis I think we should keep in the Mad Hatter. I don't think that role has been played properly yet, which I think is a shame because it's such a cool role 
I agree with everyone saying blue (DT, med, etc) actions should be restricted to night (and nonono any-time suicide bomber.... in fact i feel no suicidebomber at all is better in a smaller game).
For mafia targeting, random sounds bad to me and could be a recipe for complaints from the red side. I like the idea that 2 mafia send the gm the name of a person and that person gets hit, as it encourages activity. However the mafia would be punished far worse than the town for inactivity if this system was present, as they would lose valuable kills quickly. Maybe just the required vote/post per game day system, as it requires activity from all players regardless of allegiance.
Also what about having a Miller? If DT's have infinite rolechecks I think the Miller could help balance that out a bit
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Ok. I come back and see the KP arguement back. I am definitely against randomized hits. It puts even more luck into the game that I can't see it helping the game balance/flow.
There is a suggestion for 6/30 mafia with a mafia/2 rounded up kill formula. Now with this formula, the mafia has to take 8 days to win assuming at MOST 1 mafia dies. Most of our discussion is based around the fact that mafia usually comprises 20% of the town. The thing is, if we decrease the mafia size and use the 1:1 KP formula, any mafia death would be significantly worse for the mafia. Increasing mafia size and using the 2:1 KP formula does the opposite, and hurts the town. I think giving the town 8 days to screw up a bit much.
I like the idea of the mafia's increasing kill power. It can solve both our problems at once, which is volatility, and length of the game. One option is a KP of 2 + X where X is the number of days that have passed. (Starts at 0 for night 1, x = 1 for night 2 etc.) 6 mafia members, 30 total, means the mafia can win in theoretically in 5 days.
Day 1: 24 town
Day 2: 22 town left
Day 3: 19 town left
Day 4: 15 town left
Day 5: 10 town left
Day 6: 5 town left - mafia win.
Now obviously this formula allows for a mafia win even if the mafia only has 1 living member on Day 6. So we can adjust this formula 2 ways. One is by decreasing X Every time a mafioso dies. Mafia KP also cannot be greater than their numbers, for the sake of realism. Assuming Ver's no-vigi setup...
What happens if the mafia loses one member per day starting with the day 2 lynch?
Day 1: 23 town left (townie mislynch), 6 mafia
Day 2: 21 town left, 6 mafia
Day 3: 19 town left, 5 mafia - mafia KP now stays at 3 instead of increasing to 4
Day 4: 16 town left, 4 mafia - mafia KP remains at 3
Day 5: 13 town left, 3 mafia - mafia KP remains at 3
Day 6: 10 town left, 2 mafia - mafia KP at 2 (cannot be more than # of mafia remaining)
Day 7: 8 town left, 1 mafia - mafia KP at 1
Day 8: 7 town left, no mafia, town victory
This is way too close an outcome. Even if the town lynches a mafia every single day, they barely escape losing. In fact, if the town had made one mistake and had started consecutively mafia lynching the day after, they would have won on Day 8, having 1 mafia and 1 townie remaining. So if we use a constant + X formula, we will still have to adjust for leaving the town with a margin of error. In this case, the mafia could have revealed itself after day 3 (assuming none of them died) and still win. We cannot afford the mafia the luxury of only hiding the first 3 days. Double lynches + vigis solves the matter. Leaving out Vigis/Double lynch possibilities allows the mafia a greater margin of error. Double Lynch/Vigis give the town a chance of winning in the late game if such an event occurs.
I like this increasing KP formula, but it has to be accompanied by other factors, double lynch/vigis etc.. I'm tired of thinking right now, but I'll post more if this thread picks up again. Larger mafia numbers means town KP must be increased even if mafia KP stays the same.
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Vigis are fine, as long as you don't also put in too many killing roles. Vigis that can act starting Night 2 with 2 shots are perfect.
For the increasing mafia KP you had it right - it can never be greater than the number of mafia alive. To also balance it out, every member of the mafia has to send in a PM so that their kills count. Assuming there are 6 mafia then the formula could be: 6/(1+ #of mafia dead) + X where X is the # of days passed and of course for division purposes you have a 1 in the #of mafia dead case.
Day 1 = 6/(1+0) + 0 = 6
Day 2 = 6/(1 + 1) + 1 = 4
Day 3 = 6/(1 + 2) + 2 = 4
Day 4 = 6/(1 + 3) + 3 = 4 - > 3
This is decent as if the town kills mafia on the first day their KP drops sharply and is constant for the next 2 days (assuming they catch mafia). The town is rewarded in that the mafia KP can never get too strong, and the mafia is ok because losing one member doesn't mean a crazy insane loss of KP.
Now a major problem with this is what if mafia decide to lay low and not kill, but their KP keeps going up?
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^ In your scenario up there, the mafia KP starts out at 6, which I think is not what some people like Ver/Qatol want. We still have the problem of mass blue death in the beginning. Basically the system you just outlined helps to replenish mafia kill power as time goes on.
If the mafia decide to lay low and not kill? Why would they do that? Also their KP does go up, but can't go past 6...
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Here's another idea:
Mafia starts with KP of 4
They may choose to save hits for the next day, for every two hits they save they get an extra hit the following day, plus the hits they saved. However, if a mafia dies, they lose the hit.
ex. day 1 4 hits
they send two hits and keep two
so the day after if no mafia dies they have 7 hits.
However if mafia dies, they lose one saved hit and the bonus hit, resulting in a kp of 5.
if they send one hit and keep 3 they get 8 hits the following day, if mafia dies then they get 8-1 = 7 hits.
If they save all their hits they get 10 hits the following day assuming no mafia dies, otherwise they get 10-1-1=8 hits.
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@Incog: who knows whats going on in the game that may make them want to but there are plenty of times to do so. As for the formula we can change it easily. I'm just not for anything that goes against mass blue killing because that's the fault of the players. It makes no sense to me how anyone can play in such a way that reveals their roles. People should know better that you shouldn't HINT unless you're a DT and it has to be done extremely carefully. Everyone else you either roleclaim or not.
@Caller: saving hits is bad x_x
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On January 21 2009 11:21 Ace wrote:
@Incog: who knows whats going on in the game that may make them want to but there are plenty of times to do so. As for the formula we can change it easily. I'm just not for anything that goes against mass blue killing because that's the fault of the players. It makes no sense to me how anyone can play in such a way that reveals their roles. People should know better that you shouldn't HINT unless you're a DT and it has to be done extremely carefully. Everyone else you either roleclaim or not.
@Caller: saving hits is bad x_x
I completely agree with you. However, player inexperience in the game causes us to have to adjust to keep the game balanced and interesting. Eventually we can work toward a standard 1:1 game. But I think the 2 + X solution is reasonable. We can justify it by making the town's story that the mafia is attempting to start killing people slowly to weaken and incite fear into the town before it goes all out and starts mass murdering people.
We need more input than a few of us if we're going to come up with a solution.
Game:
30 player cap.
Rules: Players who do not vote in the day voting thread get modkilled in the day post the following day.
Blue roles:
DT - infinite rolecheck--may only use his ability at night.
Vigilante - 2 kills possible, 1 per night only on night 2 and on.
Doctor
Vet - two lives.
Governor - can call for a double lynch (1-2?) times in the game. Other than that is a regular townie.
Mafia roles:
Godfather - can appear as any blue of his choice. No conversions.
Capo - Rolechecks, 1 per night. 2-3 uses.
Mafia member
Mafia kill power is equal to 2 + X, where X = # of (mafia) days elapsed since the start of the game.
The mafia wins if their numbers are equal to or outnumber the town.
Town wins if all the mafia are dead.
30 players-
4 Mafia
1 Godfather
1 Capo
2 DTs
1 Vigis
2 Doctors
2 Vets
1 Governor
16 Townies
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That setup looks fine to me except the 2+X thing. I don't think giving the town that handicap or anything that avoids mass blue killing is the way to go. People are just going to have to learn the hard way. Blues aren't THAT important - vocal, smart townies are and should always be the key elements to the game.
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Ok. So you don't want compromise. I'm not the one you need to convince. Lets wait and see what Ver/Qatol + others say.
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yep it's just like Rocky 4 the way I feel about the blues - "If he dies, then he dies" - Drago
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I agree with ace here, blues arent that important when theres full town activity. Mafia killing power has to be related to mafia alive more than days elapsed imo. Also note that we are just speculating here because theres no way to figure how the game could come with forced activity. My humble approach is to start a game with few roles (like the example) and see how it works, and work from there.
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I agree that blues aren't that important, however it is percieved that they are. In many of the recent games, the blues have gotten killed very early and about half the town either starts calling for the town to quit or simply goes inactive. I am afraid that this will happen again. Enforced activity may solve this problem, I don't know about that.
Some people will learn the hard way that they shouldn't have played the blue role that way by simply dying. However, many people who had a blue role and played it poorly likely don't even know what got them killed. For example, in Caller's game, most of the day 1 blues thought they had died because their circle was infiltrated (when really they just made it obvious in their posts that they were blue). Additionally, I don't think that very many people are playing green roles correctly, just because the lists of blues figured out by watching posts has been so accurate. Again, forced activity may resolve this.
I'm just trying to point out potential problems with the setup that we are making. To be honest, I would be willing to go with KP based on mafia count again and hope that the town knows how to play their roles a little better this time. Really I don't think there is a way to predict how a game with forced activity will turn out until after we play one. Maybe Ver has more reasons on why we shouldn't have a KP based on mafia count though.
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When you say KP based on mafia count, you mean 1:1 or 2:1? Because as I recall in the beginning you strongly opposed 1:1?
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I still do, mostly because that makes the game a little too hard to balance in terms of kill power. A lucky lynch day 1 and suddenly the mafia is in a lot of trouble. I was thinking 2:1 is probably a little better for balance
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On January 21 2009 12:25 Qatol wrote:
I still do, mostly because that makes the game a little too hard to balance in terms of kill power. A lucky lynch day 1 and suddenly the mafia is in a lot of trouble. I was thinking 2:1 is probably a little better for balance
If you don't role reveal on death you avoid having this issue, as the town won't know who is mafia/mafia can then abuse that.
Mafia shouldn't have a higher killpower than their total members, otherwise it gets broken.
I think this thread has done alot though for throwing ideas out on the table. I think what it comes down to now, is having prospective hosts sitting down and discussing how they want to approach it and then balance it.
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Germany2896 Posts
Check http://mafiaspiel.de (click on the english flag on the bottom left) for some interesting roles.
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On January 21 2009 12:16 Qatol wrote:
I agree that blues aren't that important, however it is percieved that they are. In many of the recent games, the blues have gotten killed very early and about half the town either starts calling for the town to quit or simply goes inactive. I am afraid that this will happen again. Enforced activity may solve this problem, I don't know about that.
Some people will learn the hard way that they shouldn't have played the blue role that way by simply dying. However, many people who had a blue role and played it poorly likely don't even know what got them killed. For example, in Caller's game, most of the day 1 blues thought they had died because their circle was infiltrated (when really they just made it obvious in their posts that they were blue). Additionally, I don't think that very many people are playing green roles correctly, just because the lists of blues figured out by watching posts has been so accurate. Again, forced activity may resolve this.
I'm just trying to point out potential problems with the setup that we are making. To be honest, I would be willing to go with KP based on mafia count again and hope that the town knows how to play their roles a little better this time. Really I don't think there is a way to predict how a game with forced activity will turn out until after we play one. Maybe Ver has more reasons on why we shouldn't have a KP based on mafia count though.
I still think mafia infiltrated that group in callers mafia, idk really just a thought. However thats not important, for me the only thing that matters from a "good" blue townie is that he dont try to create an inner circle by revealing himself by pm. Any other analisis on someone is just crap, i dont think anyone has the right to say "lol you play so bad". Players can make mistakes under certain circumstances, but maybe the same mistake is a genious move under others.
One example can be my posting history in the recent game, im sure i made stupid moves, but i dont recall that someone "read" my role beforehand, even mikeymoo was decieved by my posting (he thought i was godfather lol) but that was because i never roleclaimed him given the conversion rule+ godfather. The fact is that the approach to each role is simply personal, what i tried to make last game wasnt to make a inner circle but to keep the town alive and as active as i could waiting for the last dt.
Also i want to say this about the "blue analisis" aka ver "sniping blues": its true that ver got a lot of blues in BCs mafia due to posting analisis but that is somehow related to the fact that the % of blues posting was way bigger than greens posting, i dont recall the list and i dont want to critizice vers ability, but lets say ver gave mafia a list of 12 people, i say that no more than 20 people were posting something relevant first day, so it was a good call to start sniping those (and i dont remember ver giving a nonposter in that list). Take in mind that the town has almost always gone inactive from the green side for the reasons stated in the thread, but thats because green activity has never been big either. If the number of greens nonposting is reduced then the abillity for mafia to snipe blues easily will decrease drastically, even if the posting history is considered stupid for a player.
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I apologize if I came off as insulting other people's playing styles. I was just trying to point out that it has been a problem that blues keep revealing themselves and greens keep going silent, making it even easier to pick out the blues. The only people I ever meant to criticize are the people that never post again in the thread once they get a green role (i.e. the inactives).
Again, I think that forced activity may help things somewhat, but I also want to emphasize that the greens HAVE to post and be active. If they simply vote each day and are otherwise silent in the thread, then blues will be sniped again because they tend to be more active and helpful. Otherwise, I think we are basically just agreeing on everything haha.
Just because you might be curious, I was talking to Ver during the time right after the first mafia kills in Callers game. He told me that they had informants in every circle EXCEPT the one where all the blues died (incognito in one, showtime! in the other).
BC, I don't think no role reveal really does address the day 1 lucky lynch of a mafioso. The problem is that we are trying to balance based on KP. If the mafia lose a KP before they ever get to even use it, they are FAR weaker. This is why I am pushing for a 2:1 mafia:KP ratio and an odd number of mafiosos or rounding up. This way, mafia KP cannot be reduced on day 1 and balance in the long run is easier to manage. All that no role reveal does is hide from the town that the mafia are hurting.
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On January 22 2009 03:25 Qatol wrote:
BC, I don't think no role reveal really does address the day 1 lucky lynch of a mafioso. The problem is that we are trying to balance based on KP. If the mafia lose a KP before they ever get to even use it, they are FAR weaker. This is why I am pushing for a 2:1 mafia:KP ratio and an odd number of mafiosos or rounding up. This way, mafia KP cannot be reduced on day 1 and balance in the long run is easier to manage. All that no role reveal does is hide from the town that the mafia are hurting.
The issue with that is more, if the town gets a lucky kill, they get a lucky kill. In my game you guys killed Ver day 1 lynch, yet mafia still managed to win the game. It puts the mafia at a slight disadvantage yes, but thats part of the game. Just give them an even # amount of mafia rounded up, one of them dies they still have the ssame KP first night.
Remember that a town can get unlucky with this as well as any blue role could be lost.
for example(this is incog's list from this page)
4 Mafia
1 Godfather
1 Capo
2 DTs
1 Vigis
2 Doctors
2 Vets
1 Governor
16 Townies
for players
Day 1 lynch kills a mafia, but as there are 6 of them, they keep KP of 3(or you can give each mafia a kp and in that case they would lose one)
Which sucks for mafia and puts them at a disadvantage, however, if you don't role reveal on death, the town will not know they killed a mafia member, and the mafia although down a member, are not as bad of shape as they could be.
Day 1 lynch kills a dt, or vig. Town ends up at a horrrible disadvantage, losing their 1 KP at night, or a valuable role checker. This for the town is horrifically bad loss for day 1.
For day 1 lynch to not suck for either side, an inactive green, or just a retard player has to be lynched first. Otherwise either side gets hurt.
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BC i think the first lynch is just like that, its a random event in the game since theres nothing to work with. Im fine with that, its just a setup for the rest of the game (im thinking something like chess or even starcraft) theres no way to keep always a balance. And im against unrevealed death roles and covered number of roles, that hurt the town mostly since the basic idea under mafia has always been (imo) how to coordinate a big number of people uninformed vs a small number informed. Think abut callers mafia, if the town doesnt know that theres 1 or 2 less dts then they are not only fucked because of the lack of dt but because they dont know it. The town needs all the public info the game can provide about the death roles. And please let the mess of first day going, as i said its just part of the game, if someone roleclaims first day and call to lynch x then let it be, dont restrict the power to the 2 days.
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EPT
