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On January 28 2009 04:41 Qatol wrote:
Chuiu, my thoughts on your roles:
Detective: too weak. We have been discussing the cluecheck ability a little earlier in the thread and made it slightly stronger (though not much). My problem with the current cluecheck ability is that the town often winds up deciding fluff is a clue, making the cluecheck ability totally worthless. This was why I suggested we change this to connecting a player to a mafioso code name (still weak and based on clue analysis, but you don't have to worry about "Is this a clue?" quite so much)
I think the one issue the town was having however was that they were trying to figure out how ace, myself and caller wrote clues in the end. Chuiu's method of writing clues is defined and won't be as badly scewed for this.
Note as well: In my game, there were people who had nailed down each clue exactly and were ignored by people who were spamming bad analysis. It comes down to who should you listen to in a game. IE (assume both people analyzing are town for this) If (no offence here) Malongo tells me ace is a mafia based on x analysis, and plexa tells me ver is based off x analysis I will almost always lynch ver first.
The town was being led around by people who although were trying hard to analyze, just sucked at it. Each person has an advantage they can play in a game like this, some people do an amazing job drawing people out of the woodworks, others analyze clues, some analyze behaviour (fuck some people just watch who votes for who and sees a trend and nails them that way). There are many forms a player can contribute to the game, and i still believe clue analysis is a good trait(if people can do it accurately).
On January 25 2009 15:22 Chuiu wrote:
So I don't know if I want to run a game anytime soon, I'm pretty busy with work during this time of the year. If BC wants to team up we could probably run a game between the two of us.
The setup I was thinking for my next game would be around 50 players again but this time everyone would have a watered down role. For this reason vigilante would be removed because there really is no way to water down that role and effectively keep it interesting. I would love feedback on them:
Detective: Each day can ask if a clue points to a specific player.
Paramedic: Can keep a target player alive but cannot act two consecutive nights in a row.
Veteran: Can gain one extra life per night OR can gain one extra vote per day. Each day the player chooses one.
Private Eye: Can reveal the role of one player OR do a vote count once a game.
Mad Hatter: Can place a bomb on a target player. Anytime the Mad Hatter dies the target player dies with him. Additionally the Mad Hatter may choose to 'suicide' bomb into the target player the night after he chooses his target. Must wait till the next night to move the bomb.
Town: The following are abilities the town can vote on. Actions happen if the majority of players voting that day also vote for a single option. (ie: If there are 40 total votes to lynch people you would need 21 votes on one of these options to use them) Options cannot be used two consecutive days in a row and only three are allowed per game. (ie: two double lynches and an overtime or overtime, sanctuary, and one double lynch or any combination thereof)
Double Lynch: Lynch an additional player the following day, can only be used twice.
Overtime: Give players double actions the following day/night. This does not work for Private Eye or Mad Hatter. Can only be used once.
Sanctuary: Prevents the deaths of a specific type of blue that following night. Can only be used once. ie: Everyone votes on Sanctuary for Veteran then that night anytime mafia or mad hatters target a Veteran it does nothing.
Mafia: Nothing changes here.
Don: Can order only one of the following once a game:
Overkill: Mafia can double their hits one night.
Snakeskin: Cannot be the target of Private Eye role checks, Detective clue checks, or Mad Hatter attacks for the next two days. If a blue attempts one of these they will simply be denied, it does not matter if they are targeting mafia.
Backlash: On the following day whenever a player uses a special ability it works as if the mafia used the ability on the player instead. Quick summary: clue checks do nothing, medic covers random mafia players, veterans vote for their targets but random mafia will gain extra lives, private eyes are revealed to mafia or their vote check goes to show how many private eyes voted for the player, and mad hatters place a bomb on themselves. These happen if and only if the players in question use their abilities and no player will be notified of the change until the day after.
Unlike most people, I like the idea of clues, so i like the idea behind the reworked detective, just takes someone who can use the role to use it to its fullest, what i would suggest as well however, is adding another ability to it:
Allow them to once a game follow a target player at night(this nulls their clue check ability for 2 nights). If that player performs a night action, you are informed with a general writeup of what you observed(ie you follow player X to a house, he looks around and slips in through the backdoor) or the like.
It would add a bit more flair to the character, and not really give them any intel other than they found another blue/or a red(but they wouldnt know which).
Medic, Private eye, Veteran, and hatter have a nice rework, very smooth.
I like that the town gets rewarded now for playing in the form of town powers. They are also not too overwhelming.
The mafia powers are where some issue might be. Overkill and snakeskin aren't too bad (well overkill is nasty so i would say limit it being used till like day 2+ or the like) But Backlash is more the issue.
It basically gives the mafia insane intel on some of the more important roles as you mentioned private eyes being given up to the mafia(the exact roles shouldnt be shown) you also have listed how many PI's voted for a list, that wouldnt be too bad. Also, the hatter shouldn't have his bomb thrown on himself unless hes informed, rather just have it fail or the like, or have it thrown randomly on a green/blue. The other groups dont get screwed over as hard.
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i think chuius proposed setup still has to deal with inactivity unless vote is mandatory, so im not sure if this is the best. I like the clues and dt cluer only makes sense and could work. About the rest of the roles it really depends on the numbers of each people, but the veteran looks broken: at day 3 you have 4 lives veterans wich are almost inmortal, just remember how hard was to take a 3 lives veteran in BCs game. Also i dont like the idea of "town abilities", its like a shared ability with the mafia, it looks like the town is having more power (thus increasing green interest) but in reality this wont change things too much.
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If the point of watering down roles is to get more people blue roles, we make separate roles for tracking people, like BC's DT example.
Informant: Can spy on a person once a night, but not on consecutive nights. Is notified if he person leaves the house to do a night action.
Spy: Can spy on a person once a night, but not on consecutive nights. Is notified if the person is visited during the night.
Friendly Neighbor: Can visit a person once a night, but not on consecutive nights. Is notified about who visits that person, who leaves the house, etc. The Friendly neighbor may be framed in the day post saying that he was seen at the house of person X.
Friendly Neighbor may be OP. It is a suggestion if you are going to go out with mass blue roles. However I'm not sure mass blues is the way to go, even if they are watered down. Town options are good though because they require activity to activate. However, I think it might be better to tone it down a bit and only allow double lynches as a town option. Make it like the mayors roles in other games. 4 double lynches total, that's it. This option would remove the need for a mayor-like figure and removes the possibility of the town getting owned because of a dead mayor/mafia mayor.
On January 25 2009 15:22 Chuiu wrote:
Town: The following are abilities the town can vote on. Actions happen if the majority of players voting that day also vote for a single option. (ie: If there are 40 total votes to lynch people you would need 21 votes on one of these options to use them) Options cannot be used two consecutive days in a row and only three are allowed per game. (ie: two double lynches and an overtime or overtime, sanctuary, and one double lynch or any combination thereof)
A few questions, you need a majority to activate options and lynches or just options? Also do abstentions count towards the total vote count or are they just disregarded?
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 28 2009 05:49 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2009 04:41 Qatol wrote:
Chuiu, my thoughts on your roles:
Detective: too weak. We have been discussing the cluecheck ability a little earlier in the thread and made it slightly stronger (though not much). My problem with the current cluecheck ability is that the town often winds up deciding fluff is a clue, making the cluecheck ability totally worthless. This was why I suggested we change this to connecting a player to a mafioso code name (still weak and based on clue analysis, but you don't have to worry about "Is this a clue?" quite so much)
I think the one issue the town was having however was that they were trying to figure out how ace, myself and caller wrote clues in the end. Chuiu's method of writing clues is defined and won't be as badly scewed for this. Note as well: In my game, there were people who had nailed down each clue exactly and were ignored by people who were spamming bad analysis. It comes down to who should you listen to in a game. IE (assume both people analyzing are town for this) If (no offence here) Malongo tells me ace is a mafia based on x analysis, and plexa tells me ver is based off x analysis I will almost always lynch ver first. The town was being led around by people who although were trying hard to analyze, just sucked at it. Each person has an advantage they can play in a game like this, some people do an amazing job drawing people out of the woodworks, others analyze clues, some analyze behaviour (fuck some people just watch who votes for who and sees a trend and nails them that way). There are many forms a player can contribute to the game, and i still believe clue analysis is a good trait(if people can do it accurately). Show nested quote +On January 25 2009 15:22 Chuiu wrote:
So I don't know if I want to run a game anytime soon, I'm pretty busy with work during this time of the year. If BC wants to team up we could probably run a game between the two of us.
The setup I was thinking for my next game would be around 50 players again but this time everyone would have a watered down role. For this reason vigilante would be removed because there really is no way to water down that role and effectively keep it interesting. I would love feedback on them:
Detective: Each day can ask if a clue points to a specific player.
Paramedic: Can keep a target player alive but cannot act two consecutive nights in a row.
Veteran: Can gain one extra life per night OR can gain one extra vote per day. Each day the player chooses one.
Private Eye: Can reveal the role of one player OR do a vote count once a game.
Mad Hatter: Can place a bomb on a target player. Anytime the Mad Hatter dies the target player dies with him. Additionally the Mad Hatter may choose to 'suicide' bomb into the target player the night after he chooses his target. Must wait till the next night to move the bomb.
Town: The following are abilities the town can vote on. Actions happen if the majority of players voting that day also vote for a single option. (ie: If there are 40 total votes to lynch people you would need 21 votes on one of these options to use them) Options cannot be used two consecutive days in a row and only three are allowed per game. (ie: two double lynches and an overtime or overtime, sanctuary, and one double lynch or any combination thereof)
Double Lynch: Lynch an additional player the following day, can only be used twice.
Overtime: Give players double actions the following day/night. This does not work for Private Eye or Mad Hatter. Can only be used once.
Sanctuary: Prevents the deaths of a specific type of blue that following night. Can only be used once. ie: Everyone votes on Sanctuary for Veteran then that night anytime mafia or mad hatters target a Veteran it does nothing.
Mafia: Nothing changes here.
Don: Can order only one of the following once a game:
Overkill: Mafia can double their hits one night.
Snakeskin: Cannot be the target of Private Eye role checks, Detective clue checks, or Mad Hatter attacks for the next two days. If a blue attempts one of these they will simply be denied, it does not matter if they are targeting mafia.
Backlash: On the following day whenever a player uses a special ability it works as if the mafia used the ability on the player instead. Quick summary: clue checks do nothing, medic covers random mafia players, veterans vote for their targets but random mafia will gain extra lives, private eyes are revealed to mafia or their vote check goes to show how many private eyes voted for the player, and mad hatters place a bomb on themselves. These happen if and only if the players in question use their abilities and no player will be notified of the change until the day after. Unlike most people, I like the idea of clues, so i like the idea behind the reworked detective, just takes someone who can use the role to use it to its fullest, what i would suggest as well however, is adding another ability to it: Allow them to once a game follow a target player at night(this nulls their clue check ability for 2 nights). If that player performs a night action, you are informed with a general writeup of what you observed(ie you follow player X to a house, he looks around and slips in through the backdoor) or the like. It would add a bit more flair to the character, and not really give them any intel other than they found another blue/or a red(but they wouldnt know which). Medic, Private eye, Veteran, and hatter have a nice rework, very smooth. I like that the town gets rewarded now for playing in the form of town powers. They are also not too overwhelming. The mafia powers are where some issue might be. Overkill and snakeskin aren't too bad (well overkill is nasty so i would say limit it being used till like day 2+ or the like) But Backlash is more the issue. It basically gives the mafia insane intel on some of the more important roles as you mentioned private eyes being given up to the mafia(the exact roles shouldnt be shown) you also have listed how many PI's voted for a list, that wouldnt be too bad. Also, the hatter shouldn't have his bomb thrown on himself unless hes informed, rather just have it fail or the like, or have it thrown randomly on a green/blue. The other groups dont get screwed over as hard.
BC although I agree that Chuiu's method of writing clues is much more defined and thus easier to figure out, I'm still curious about what you think is wrong with my modification to the DT role. It isn't like I'm really making the ability THAT much stronger, and you still have to rely on clue analysis. The only case I can think of where it would really make a difference is if you have clues to mafiosos whose codename doesn't show up in the day post.
I'd like to see some more opinions about the new Vet. It seems to me that they will be used just like elders were at the end of mafia 1 (confirmed townie) except I can see people trying to form a town society using the role. This isn't necessarily bad because the vet has to be using his extra vote ability instead of the extra life in order to confirm himself, but I could see the medics all watching this vet after he proves himself innocent. Just something to keep in mind when choosing the number of mafiosos.
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Maybe RoleFinder should be limited more so to be implemented? I see what you guys mean, perhaps change it to like find a friend or something, where it just generates a random towny role for the DT. That would greatly reduce its strength and prevent the day one role calling stupidity.
I will try to read rest of this tomorrow when I get home then provide some more input. I only have around a page to catch up on.
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To answer some concerns/questions:
DT's: I don't feel clue checking is weak especially when you consider there will be a much larger number of detectives in the coming game.
Overtime is for blues only, mafia abilities and town abilities are separately aligned.
Overkill: I agree the ability is strong very early in the game. It will be changed so that mafia cannot use it before the third day.
Not related to my setup but I don't like the rolefinder ability. In every other role what you find is the player has to actively search out a target for his ability whereas with the rolefinder you just say a number and get free info.
Backlash I'm willing to change so that their role check does nothing instead of revealing who they are to mafia. I'm not really sure at this point though because the mafia only get to use ONE of these three abilities and I want to make them equally appealing. And the last line of the role states players will be notified of the backlash the day after so Mad Hatter would know the bomb was placed on him so he can change afterwords.
Malongo. that's not how the veteran role works. He either has an extra life or an extra vote per day. He doesn't gain an extra life each time he uses it he's just gaining one extra hit protected per night. And once he's hit once by the mafia (provided he's using the extra life) he loses it and can't use it again. Also there is no effective way to combat inactivity without replacing people when they go active and I think we've seen that doesn't work very well and every game is going to suffer from it in some way or another. Finally there are no greens, just blues and reds; which I hope will actually encourage more players to be active.
Incognito, I don't want to really include more roles at this point but I'll keep looking for ways of making more interesting but also watered down roles. As for the voting the lynching happens like normally but the special ability vote must be more than half of the total lynch votes and no abstainers are not counted. So that means if there are three people that are being voted on for lynching, 1 vote for one of them, 6 votes for another, and 8 votes for the final one then the total vote count would be 15 and the number needed to use a special ability would be 8.
Qatol, the elder was never a really good role which is why I stopped using it. And, yes, the veteran isn't very interesting. But the point of both of these roles is to give the player more room to throw his weight around, to make himself heard. Veterans work best when they can find a detective or some strong source of mafia-revealing information and communicate it to the group because they have the extra lives to survive through, in this case, one mafia hit.
Also I was thinking of letting the Private Eye get one use of both his abilities but add a two day delay between them. I feel that giving him one use will just keep him interested up until that point and then he'll probably go inactive after that.
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Everyone has blue roles, hmm...I'm still not sure giving everyone a role is a good thing. But we gotta try something.
Anyway, everyone having blue roles means sanctuary can be OP. Chuiu can you post a role distribution list? Also will you have mandatory voting? Perhaps mandatory voting + blue roles can keep the game more streamlined and active. This game is important because I think that if this game turns out bad with inactivity, we'll be losing a lot of players.
Also for clarification is the Don like godfathers in other games or just a regular mafia who can order mafia options?
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On March 23 2013 08:35 Acrofales wrote:You know there's a TL Mafia Miscellaneous chat thread for exactly this purpose, right? No need to necro threads from 2009. EDIT: here
Yeah actually forgot about the thing while looking for some offtopic-stuff and didn't consider it cause it looked like a Game, not a discussion thread.
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You know there's a TL Mafia Miscellaneous chat thread for exactly this purpose, right? No need to necro threads from 2009.
EDIT: here
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I agree with the OP, the DT role is very necessary for a mafia game.
But I don't think vigs are that overpowered like he said. I mean, they always hit town in average so it kind of balances it out.
The GF is more effective when he just appears as "Town" though. Making him choose what to appear as makes it less "immersive" I think, like too complex and shit.
On January 15 2009 16:24 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2009 15:45 Ver wrote:
How do we deal with the day 1 dt roleclaim 'you mafia' rubbish? Insane DTs? DTs cannot act until day 2? Millers? Balancing DTs is also an important issue. Are votelists (with extreme measures put on them) ok conceptually (i,e do they reward good things or does it just dumb down the game)? Give them infinite rolechecks? Make cluechecks not suck? My idea before mafia 5(or 6) was to change rolechecks to not identify regular mafia members at all (mafia = townie) and give DTs an infinite number of them. Still useful for finding blues, but no more day 1 DT roleclaim bs. I think the votelists are the most exciting part of the game (especially when you're on one with a bunch of mafia), plus it's much easier to analyze clues for a list of 5 or so people than trying to pour through 50+ profiles. As for veteran players getting picked off by the mafia early, either hand out more medic roles (and no fucking suicide bomber) or perhaps just make the veterans... veterans. Ver, Ace, Camlito, BC, mikey, etc. get an extra life just to discourage the mafia from whacking them all by day 2.
This guy is crazy, why would a DT check on D1?
I'd like to hear your arguments for it Shadow guy!
I give you 2 days.
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On March 23 2013 10:13 grush57 wrote:
i hope ur joking gonzaw
stap spamming, you have to add smething to the discussion, the TL Mafia Discussion
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