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Let's worry less about who becomes mayor (since we have very little to go on at this time) and more on what we want the mayor to do. These decisions are for the town to make--
if we can reach a consensus, the mayor should follow our lead.
So far, Ace's bodyguard plan sounds like our best shot at getting the most information on our side with the least cost. Ghar's "detective" propostion has a high cost: we blow half of our detectives' most important ability on the first night. What do we gain for losing this? We know whether or not our mayor is Mafia. But this is not even such valuable information! If he is elected already, there is nothing we can do about losing the double lynches. THE "DETECTIVE PLAN" IS NOT WORTH IT.
Instead, we should move ahead with the bodyguard plan at top speed. As soon as the mayor is elected, he sends out PMs to the bodyguards. They confirm with each other. As soon as they have confirmed, one of them (say, the first alphabetically) reveals himself to the public. Everyone with roles sends them to him, and he passes the information on to the other bodyguards. All of this needs to be done before the first night.
If we move fast enough, we can go ahead and use the detectives like Ghar wants, but only use one of them. If for some reason we do not move fast enough, we have wasted a single night. Still better than wasting 3/8 of our detectives' yes/no questions.
Does anyone disagree that we should follow the bodyguard plan ASAP?
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The most important thing we can do, IMHO, is co-ordinate. We have multiple special roles, and we can't afford to have them duplicate their efforts. That's why we need to find a confirmed towny as early as possible, and I think the bodyguard plan is the best way we know of to do that. My version involves outing one bodyguard, but that's a small price to pay for the ability to co-ordinate.
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On March 19 2008 03:39 Ace wrote:
I agree with some of this randombum. The Bodyguard plan is not the full plan I would use, it's just a start that gets information around and gets the town into a good setting.
Whether or not the BG roles need to be revealed is a different issue and I think it's worth telling at a certain time. In most Mafia games, the town does something called Role Claiming which is a great thing to do. It brings out conflicts because surely Mafia members need to claim SOMETHING.
However, the Mayor + BodyGuards DO have the power to change the voting. Remember, if everyone knows that the plan is being followed and nothing comes out about a guilty mayor, then they must be innocent. And if the innocent Mayor has a committee of innocents, that drops the suspect list down to 122, gets information flowing, and eliminates red herrings in clue posts.
Surely, that is a much better plan than what we have now?
wait, what DO we have now?
Let's discuss what we have now. Like I said, who becomes mayor is less important than what he does. Ace, do you (or anyone else) disagree with me that the best thing to do with the bodyguards is reveal one and let him find out everyone's role?
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Because the bodyguards are the only people that we know to be innocent. How do we find out whether the mayor is Mafia short of wasting half our detectives' yes/no questions?
Once one bodyguard has all the information, he can PM it to the others, who are not known. By the second day, ONE detective can check the mayor, and if he is innocent, he can become the spokesman.
Besides, the one bodyguard can be protected (or fake-protected) by medics.
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Since the leading candidates disagree with me, I will cast my hat into the ring: I am running for mayor. Why am I running? To implement the bodyguard plan with revealing a single bodyguard. Why do that? To coordinate our forces and save our special powers as much as possible. How will you know I'm not Mafia? A single detective will confirm it.
A vote for me is a vote for this plan, plain and simple. There's no other reason that I'm running. If any of the current leaders endorse it, I'll be happy to withdraw from the race and cede any votes I get to them.
Edit: re Ghar's post above mine, to clarify my proposition:
Before the detectives use their powers, I hope to have them organized, so that they do not duplicate their efforts (same goes for medics, etc.) I don't want the detectives to work alone--on the contrary, I want them to work with the one towny they can trust: the bodyguard.
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OK, reiterating my platform and trying to sum things up. Sorry if this is redundant:
1. Why I am running for mayor
I support Ace's bodyguard plan, and all credit to him, but I don't think he is taking it far enough. I want there to be an immediate roleclaim by a single bodyguard (after we verify that no one is being tricky) in order to coordinate everyone's efforts. Since as far as I have seen, no other candidate advocates this, I am running for mayor. If you support my version of the bodyguard plan, vote for me.
2. What I will do as mayor
1. Immediately after taking office I will PM each of the bodyguards with the names of the other bodyguards. They in turn will PM each other with the same information.
2. I will wait a few hours for someone to object. (If I am Mafia and trying to be tricky, one of the bodyguards will object here. If a bodyguard objects, either he or I is Mafia, and all bets are off until the town determines which the case is. If I am a towny, nothing will happen unless a mafioso objects; again, things will have to be put on hold until we determine whether the mayor or the objector is Mafia. [In point of fact, I am a towny.] If no one objects, we can proceed under the assumption that everyone on my list is a legitimate bodyguard.)
All of the above is Ace's plan. The following steps are where I differ and why I am running.
3. I will announce the name of a single bodyguard. Alternately, we could agree that the bodyguard with the first name, alphabetically (or a different criterion) announces himself. In any case, we will now have a guaranteed towny to whom everyone can tell their secrets.
4. Everyone with a role PMs the Bodyguard. He passes the information on to the other bodyguards (but not the mayor, yet.) If anyone is being tricky, the bodyguard will know.
5. Assuming that the Mafia does not interfere with this part, the bodyguard will give instructions to a single detective to investigate me. The other detectives can use their roles in other ways. The bodyguard should co-ordinate this.
6. Once I am cleared, I can become the official spokesman for the innocent townies.
3. Why this plan is our best shot
It allows us to coordinate from the beginning. Without coordination, there is a high likelihood that we will waste our powers of detection, protection, etc. Coordination is the single most important thing we can do.
If the Mafia interfere by making false claims, it slows us down, but also gives us a lead on who is Mafia. With access to all of the detectives, the towny in charge will soon figure out who is lying. The game will proceed with one less mafioso.
4. Objections?
Well, we're revealing a bodyguard. Easy solution, though: let the medics protect him for a night. They have no one better to protect, and the Mafia have no one better to target. If the Mafia kill him anyway, they have wasted a lot of their kills in overcoming the medics. If they do not, we have wasted at best a handful of lucky protections, but we have gained the ability to coordinate, which will save us much more in the long run.
If anyone has other objections, please state them. I don't care whether I'm mayor (except that I know I'm a towny)--I care that the mayor follows this plan. Discuss?
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On March 19 2008 07:11 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
i think it may be best if empyrean is made pardoner rather than mayor. that way if he IS mafia, then we don't lose the mayor role, though the pardoner is important i'd rather lose that role than the mayor.
The problem is: the pardoner role is not so useful to the town, but it is rather useful to the Mafia.
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On March 19 2008 07:17 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 07:15 qrs wrote:On March 19 2008 07:11 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
i think it may be best if empyrean is made pardoner rather than mayor. that way if he IS mafia, then we don't lose the mayor role, though the pardoner is important i'd rather lose that role than the mayor. The problem is: the pardoner role is not so useful to the town, but it is rather useful to the Mafia. False. If the pardoner pardons someone out of the blue, it'll invite serious suspicion. If I'm mayor, it'll guarantee that the people he pardons are legitimate townies (although I won't really want to waste a detection on confirming that).
What are you saying? That the pardoner can never use his role? And what do you mean "If I'm mayor". I was saying why it would not be good for the town if you were pardoner and Mafia. Read the post I was responding to.
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On March 19 2008 07:21 Empyrean wrote:
No, the pardoner should use the role when he has enough conviction to believe that the town is falsely lynching.
If there were a mafia pardoner who decides to pardon a mafia member without a "good" reason, the town will suspect him anyway, leading to the revelation of another mafia. How would the town know that the person he pardoned was Mafia?
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Can't anyone respond to this post of mine? I don't especially want to be mayor, but I do think that this is the plan the mayor should follow. No one seems to be advocating it or even talking about it. Doesn't anyone agree that coordination from the beginning is the best thing for us?
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On March 19 2008 07:25 MasterOfChaos wrote:
Do bodyguards know they are bodyguards? If no, the bodyguard plan does not work with a mafia major. One other thing to consider is, the terrorist might kill the bodyguards who outs to get the messages from the other roles.
They do know that they are bodyguards: it's a special role like any other. They get a special PM.
As for your second point, a) the medics can protect him (unless the Mafia decide to waste most of their kills on one person) and b) even if he dies, he will pass on the information first, so it won't be wasted.
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On March 19 2008 07:36 MasterOfChaos wrote:
@qrs: I think one detective detective is not enough if there more detectives report than there are really ingame. Also make sure the "few hours" are long enough. Not everybody is always active. I think 20-30 hours should be ok.
If more detectives report than really are in-game, then the liar has to be outed first. Have each "detective" investigate something and see who gives the wrong answer. Costs the town one night, but the mafioso dies as well.
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On March 19 2008 07:39 ahrara_ wrote:
...Ace will coordinate the real detectives
How? This is what I keep asking. We can't coordinate unless the detectives can all trust someone. They can only trust someone if they know he is towny. That means either: we waste 3/8 of the valuable yes/no questions, or the mayor reveals a bodyguard. Ace has said he does not want to reveal a bodyguard immediately, so how will he be able to coordinate the detectives?
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On March 19 2008 07:54 Ace wrote:
Also guys, I don't think we need to reveal a bodyguard. Whoever wins mayor will undoubtedly be checked up on by a Detective or a Jack, and if found Mafia will be turned out ASAP. If things are quiet, we can be sure as heck that they must be innocent.
The Mayor will be the mouthpiece of "the committee" (Bodyguards + Mayor)
The problem with that in a nutshell is that you are forcing all the detectives to use one of their two "is-he-Mafia" questions. (If one does not, how do we know that all of them will not?) Surely it's better to save those questions for when we can use them better, and out a single bodyguard (who can be protected or fake-protected).
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On March 19 2008 08:12 MasterOfChaos wrote:
@qrs:
The role question is imo not that valuable compared to the "how many voted for" question. And they are only expended if a mafia-member claims to be detective, which effectively kills this mafia member. So they are not wasted.
It's a question of supply and demand. They are valuable because they can only be used twice in a game. The "how many voted for" question can be used every night.
They don't need to be expended at all (except for one, to check the mayor). If a mafia-member claims to be detective, he can be found out by all the detectives asking a "how many voted for" question.
Everyone, this is where Ace differs from me. I think we should preserve our "Is he Mafia" questions and risk outing one bodyguard. Ace thinks we should not out any bodyguards and rely on the detectives to prove the mayor innocent, instead wasting 3/8 of the "is he Mafia" questions and possibly a night (if it takes a night for detectives to get the answer). Read my original post for what I think the mayor should do. Vote for me or post in the thread here if you support that proposal. I won't push this issue any more: I've done my best to convince you all, and if I haven't done so, posting more probably won't help.
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On March 19 2008 08:30 Empyrean wrote:
Also, I don't agree with the bodyguard plan qrs posted wholly - if the mayor were mafia, he could have a mafia member "reveal" that he was a bodyguard, and then the mafia would know the player's jobs/plan/etc., as well as waste a significant amount of paramedic protection.
That's why I think that we should investigate any person who claims bodyguard first.
That part of it was covered by Ace's original post: The mayor PMs all of the bodyguards the names of all the bodyguards and announces that he has done so. If a real bodyguard hasn't gotten this PM he announces, and we know that something is wrong. If no one says anything, that means that all the real bodyguards have gotten PMs, and the mayor cannot sneak a Mafia member into the list. (This assumes that we will know the total number of bodyguards, which we should.)
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On March 19 2008 08:57 Kau wrote:
Ace:
About your Bodyguard plan, what stops a mafia mayor from pming each actual bodyguard with a list that is something like:
mafia 1
mafia 2
mafia 3
bodyguard #
Each actual bodyguard would get a pm back from each of the fake mafia-bodyguards and they wouldn't know.
Then once the mayor gets checked by a detective, couldn't there be fake mafia-detectives that state that the mayor is innocent?
Hmm, this seems to be a flaw in the plan.
Edit: @ Ace: He's saying that every bodyguard would get a PM. Their PM would list Mafia members as bodyguards. Each bodyguard's PM would list (the same) fake bodyguards as their colleagues. None of the bodyguards would know the difference.
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On March 19 2008 09:07 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:04 Empyrean wrote:
Especially since once the real bodyguards complain that they didn't get a PM, other mafia can as well. And if the Mayor is innocent he'd (which would be confirmed by the DTs silence) then those stupid Mafia that tried to geek the Town would be caught when the Mayor never mentions them on his list. If any Mafia member false claims they'd be caught red handed fast because this plan does not use 1 person as the word of trust - it uses several with a self checking scheme. Continue to try and find more holes in it, this is interesting and fun. Ace, he DID find a hole in it: please address it.
All the bodyguards receive PMs.
None of them receive the names of their true colleagues.
None of them know the difference.
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On March 19 2008 09:10 Ghar wrote:
What Ace meant was the real bodyguards would see it strange that they got a PM from Chuiu telling them they're bodyguard, but not from the mayor who might have left them out when PMing the bodyguards about each other.
Ace's plan = Bodyguard gets 2 PMs, 1 from Chuiu, and 1 from the Mayor telling him who the other bodyguards are. The number has to add up, anybody guard that didn't get a PM from the mayor, stands up and speaks out.
You guys aren't understanding Kau's point. The real bodyguards would ALL get PMs from the mafioso mayor. The PMs would be lies, but they would all get them.
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On March 19 2008 09:32 Kau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:12 Ace wrote:On March 19 2008 09:04 qrs wrote:
Edit: @ Ace: He's saying that every bodyguard would get a PM. Their PM would list Mafia members as bodyguards. Each bodyguard's PM would list (the same) fake bodyguards as their colleagues. None of the bodyguards would know the difference. They'd still be caught. Ok let's look at like this: Scenario 1: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with a Mafia Mayor who also sends out the PM. We will know how many BGs are there when the elections are over. The Mafia can't leave 2 of the real Bodyguards off the list because the 2 that didn't get a PM would speak up. They can't just add an extra 2 to the PM because any BG getting a PM from the Mayor with 9 names obviously means the Mayor is clearly not thinking straight and is fishy. Scenario 2: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with an Innocent Mayor who also sends out the PM. The PMs from the Mayor don't match those 2 "fake" PMs. Even better, the names of those 2 fakers never even appear in the Mayor's original PM and they just outted themselves as Mafia for a pathetic chance at confusion. How can the Mafia possibly get away with faking any of it without drawing attention to their members? Ace, I don't see how scenario 1 would happen at all. Unless I don't understand how the game works (which is a definite possibility), this is how I see it using your numbers. What everyone knows: There are 7 bodyguards. Only the mayor knows which 7 people are bodyguards. Now, we assume that the mayor is also mafia, so he can coordinate with other mafia members. Since he knows who each bodyguard is, he will send each of the 7 bodyguards a pm. Each pm will have 7 people in it: 6 mafia and 1 bodyguard. Each bodyguard gets pm'ed back by the mafia members (6 different pm's for each bodyguard) and so they believe there are 7 bodyguards. No bodyguards are left out. Each list sent contains 7 people. Each bodyguard recieves 6 confirmation pm's.
Or even this (Call the bodyguards A-G and the mafia 1-4):
A's PM
A,B,C,D,1,2,3
B's PM
A,B,C,D,1,2,3
C's PM
A,B,C,D,1,2,3
D's PM
A,B,C,D,1,2,3
E's PM
E,F,G,1,2,3,4
F's PM
E,F,G,1,2,3,4
G's PM
E,F,G,1,2,3,4
Only 4 mafia used in that scenario. The bodyguards will never know.
EDIT: looks like I missed a lot of posts while typing that. Will read them now.
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EPT
