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[N][M]Noir Mini Mafia - Ch. 5 - Page 59

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Prev 1 57 58 59 60 Next
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
August 23 2020 00:59 GMT
#1161
##unvote
##Vote: Dadred




Onegu I will still switch if you are here.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
August 23 2020 01:00 GMT
#1162
gg
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
August 23 2020 01:02 GMT
#1163
Endgame:

Onegu (Mafia Goon) survived!

Mafia victory!

a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
iamperfection
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9649 Posts
August 23 2020 01:02 GMT
#1164
lul
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406168&currentpage=78#1551
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
August 23 2020 01:05 GMT
#1165
Fair enough.
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
August 23 2020 01:06 GMT
#1166
Host Spreadsheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SZyQuOaKawzvvzWW5MhUr8yiht0gn_wHg2eOfQ69M6Y/edit

Obs: https://quicktopic.com/53/H/SAt4VNqMf5C
Mafia: https://quicktopic.com/53/H/fnRD3PLQGH2Pr
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
iamperfection
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9649 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-08-23 01:07:31
August 23 2020 01:07 GMT
#1167
would have been a tough get but onegu tried his best to throw. Unfortunate the DR healed mafia probally should have had more discussion on the setup of the game didnt seem no shot was thought of as a serious possibility.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406168&currentpage=78#1551
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
August 23 2020 01:07 GMT
#1168
Sorry all Was hard to read Onegu with the little play. Excellently done by him and Mr. Cheesecake really.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
August 23 2020 01:08 GMT
#1169
I knew the no shot was a possibility, we just didn't really have the means to pressure Onegu to get the read. My fault really, my activity wasn't there at final day.
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
August 23 2020 01:10 GMT
#1170
Setup Thoughts:

On August 16 2020 09:56 Trfel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2020 09:53 Vivax wrote:
Like, last time you were mafia I noticed it from you posting really detailed explanations on everything but it was obvious nothing really interested you (otherwise you'd devote more time to that).

It feels like that this game too. But really, I can be wrong. Just don't want you to think that there aren't reasons for peeps to think you are mafia. There's probably reasons to think I'm too.

Even if as mafia you put in the most effort even over townies it doesn't give the right not to be lynched.
Yes, I've been disinterested and demotivated. I think this game's setup really is awful with an inactive group, and makes for torture to play in.

....


+1 to Trfel.

This is the 5th iteration of this setup I have had a chance to host on TL. Looking back at previous games, it tends to amplify both positive and negative aspects of town activity atmosphere. An active town can use the flexible lynch mechanic to bulldoze a scum-team. As in this game, an inactive town can get frozen and gridlocked trying to consolidate on a majority lynch.

Unfortunately, this game was compromised by inactivity. GTacc and Mr. Cheesecake were modkilled for inactivity. HoldenGolden would have been warned (and was likely on the way to a modkill) before he got lynched. No game (especially this setup) is fun when a third of the game isn't active.

raynpelikoneet
08-13-2020
09:19 PM ET (US)
/m21 i dont understand why mafia would ever kill anyone? Since more possible suspects is better, just end the game with time limit no matter how many people left


Rayn also identified a pretty key flaw in the setup: there is rarely an incentive for mafia to night-kill. In future games, I would RNG a night kill if mafia did not submit an action (i.e. on Night 1).

Moderation Thoughts:

I'd appreciate feedback on the moderation of the game.

For my part, I think I screwed up on two fronts:

Firstly, I should have imposed much stricter activity requirements in a game of this nature. While a host cannot control activity levels, I can modkill and/or replace players more quickly. I had in my mind that 48-hours of thread inactivity would justify a warning. A second 48-hour period of inactivity would justify a mod-kill. A consecutive 72-hour period of inactivity would justify a modkill. I believe these standards were insufficient, especially when I had two replacements lined up for the game.

Secondly, I do not believe it was proper for me to require the confirmation of the night kill by both mafia members. It seemed unnecessary, and allows one inactive mafia member to derail night actions.

Regarding Gameplay:

I quoted a couple of posts from the QT and the thread that I found "thematic" of the game. The inactivity does make it difficult to draw too much from the game. However, the general "theme" of "townies going at each other's throats while mafia sits back and watches" holds.

Damdred's comment during the scramble toward the D2 lynch summarizes this dynamic well.

On August 16 2020 09:56 Dadred wrote:
Tbh I think most of the people who are actively here are probably town. Just gut read there


On D2, this was true: LS was barely active (and Mr. CC afk) while townies argued with each other and ultimately lynched Shockeyy.

Mr. CC, to his credit, was willing to "get involved" in lynch shenanigans on D1. However, I feel that his sabotage of the D1 lynch (by unvoting at the last minute on cycle 3) was a scum-slip.

On August 16 2020 09:15 Vivax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2020 09:08 Trfel wrote:
The main thing I have against Fecalfeast is that he's been suspicious of basically everyone this game. He's voted for so many people and expressed willingness to kill so many people. I can kind of see it since it's hard to confirm people as town this game, but at the same time he seems super bloodthirsty.

I dunno if that is enough to make him mafia though :/

@Damdred, I'll keep thinking about it, but right now I'm not really seeing it.... Sorry if I am just being bad.


Being bloodthirsty is good, is town.

In this game mafia will most likely have a bag of old reads from D1 to carry around and just pretend to do nothing but now that the afk townies are gone (if Damdred presumably is town), in my view I am left with Shockeyy and eywa who fit that picture.

At least that's how I remember it, but I'm going over their posts first to see if I'm not reaching here.


Vivax had a great post here, albeit he drew the wrong conclusions. In the dynamic of this game, town has to push lynches. Being willing to lynch, and being involved in last-minute attempts to consolidate lynches are strong townie traits.

In this game, it is the mafia that were not bloodthirsty. LS was generally inactive around deadlines. Mr. CC almost highhandedly caused a no-lynch on D1. Onegu sat back and watched townies scream at each other.

On August 19 2020 03:41 Eywa- wrote:
I'm 100% always voting Damdred today by the way. Any votes cast for anyone but Damdred have a 0% chance of town win because I'm not moving.


These forced "binary choices" have come up in quite a few recent games, so I thought I'd point it out. In full disclosure, I ended up leading a mislynch in my most recent game against BloodyCobbler (oops) doing this same things.

All and all, I feel that these "binary" choices can be good if you are absolutely 100% sure that a player is mafia. The problem with this logic is that townies are rarely 100% sure of things. If they feel that they are, they usually vastly overestimate their accuracy and confidence.

With that said, binary choices limit a town's flexibility, and artificially amplify a player's propensity to tunnel on a target. It is no surprise that it led to a bad result in this game.

When you force a town to choose between one of two stupid options, logic dictates that they have a 100% chance of choosing a stupid option.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
August 23 2020 01:13 GMT
#1171
Got damn, I’m amazing, I had the best reads.
Life?
LightningStrike
Profile Joined February 2011
United States14277 Posts
August 23 2020 01:42 GMT
#1172
Ty Onegu for the carry!
My thoughts I was very demotivated Day 2 due to have no scum partner as we no shot because Cheesecake didn't confirm my shot which I was going to shoot Trfel because I didn't want to deal with his case build abilities. Once FF claimed his save on Cheesecake's slot I knew we won as people would take it a normal save and not a no shot from mafia.
May the next light shine/Former #1 Alliance LoL fan/ Current Teamliquid LoL Fan
Eywa-
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada4876 Posts
August 23 2020 01:57 GMT
#1173
Yeah, already covered in the mod's recap. Allowing no-kill in most medic setups is iffy.
Being mannered is almost as important as winning. Almost...
Onegu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States9699 Posts
August 23 2020 02:05 GMT
#1174
Once I was told that I was the medic save on a shot where no one died I just needed to not do anything. Look lazy. And do basically nothing. It was easy to flip to LS even on a bus because it would just make me look that much better. Once that happened there is almost no way to lynch me in lylo on the final day.
Try TL Mafia!!!
GlowingBear
Profile Joined May 2014
Brazil12446 Posts
August 23 2020 02:07 GMT
#1175
On August 23 2020 10:10 Hapahauli wrote:
Setup Thoughts:

Show nested quote +
On August 16 2020 09:56 Trfel wrote:
On August 16 2020 09:53 Vivax wrote:
Like, last time you were mafia I noticed it from you posting really detailed explanations on everything but it was obvious nothing really interested you (otherwise you'd devote more time to that).

It feels like that this game too. But really, I can be wrong. Just don't want you to think that there aren't reasons for peeps to think you are mafia. There's probably reasons to think I'm too.

Even if as mafia you put in the most effort even over townies it doesn't give the right not to be lynched.
Yes, I've been disinterested and demotivated. I think this game's setup really is awful with an inactive group, and makes for torture to play in.

....


+1 to Trfel.

This is the 5th iteration of this setup I have had a chance to host on TL. Looking back at previous games, it tends to amplify both positive and negative aspects of town activity atmosphere. An active town can use the flexible lynch mechanic to bulldoze a scum-team. As in this game, an inactive town can get frozen and gridlocked trying to consolidate on a majority lynch.

Unfortunately, this game was compromised by inactivity. GTacc and Mr. Cheesecake were modkilled for inactivity. HoldenGolden would have been warned (and was likely on the way to a modkill) before he got lynched. No game (especially this setup) is fun when a third of the game isn't active.

Show nested quote +
raynpelikoneet
08-13-2020
09:19 PM ET (US)
/m21 i dont understand why mafia would ever kill anyone? Since more possible suspects is better, just end the game with time limit no matter how many people left


Rayn also identified a pretty key flaw in the setup: there is rarely an incentive for mafia to night-kill. In future games, I would RNG a night kill if mafia did not submit an action (i.e. on Night 1).

Moderation Thoughts:

I'd appreciate feedback on the moderation of the game.

For my part, I think I screwed up on two fronts:

Firstly, I should have imposed much stricter activity requirements in a game of this nature. While a host cannot control activity levels, I can modkill and/or replace players more quickly. I had in my mind that 48-hours of thread inactivity would justify a warning. A second 48-hour period of inactivity would justify a mod-kill. A consecutive 72-hour period of inactivity would justify a modkill. I believe these standards were insufficient, especially when I had two replacements lined up for the game.

Secondly, I do not believe it was proper for me to require the confirmation of the night kill by both mafia members. It seemed unnecessary, and allows one inactive mafia member to derail night actions.

Regarding Gameplay:

I quoted a couple of posts from the QT and the thread that I found "thematic" of the game. The inactivity does make it difficult to draw too much from the game. However, the general "theme" of "townies going at each other's throats while mafia sits back and watches" holds.

Damdred's comment during the scramble toward the D2 lynch summarizes this dynamic well.

Show nested quote +
On August 16 2020 09:56 Dadred wrote:
Tbh I think most of the people who are actively here are probably town. Just gut read there


On D2, this was true: LS was barely active (and Mr. CC afk) while townies argued with each other and ultimately lynched Shockeyy.

Mr. CC, to his credit, was willing to "get involved" in lynch shenanigans on D1. However, I feel that his sabotage of the D1 lynch (by unvoting at the last minute on cycle 3) was a scum-slip.

Show nested quote +
On August 16 2020 09:15 Vivax wrote:
On August 16 2020 09:08 Trfel wrote:
The main thing I have against Fecalfeast is that he's been suspicious of basically everyone this game. He's voted for so many people and expressed willingness to kill so many people. I can kind of see it since it's hard to confirm people as town this game, but at the same time he seems super bloodthirsty.

I dunno if that is enough to make him mafia though :/

@Damdred, I'll keep thinking about it, but right now I'm not really seeing it.... Sorry if I am just being bad.


Being bloodthirsty is good, is town.

In this game mafia will most likely have a bag of old reads from D1 to carry around and just pretend to do nothing but now that the afk townies are gone (if Damdred presumably is town), in my view I am left with Shockeyy and eywa who fit that picture.

At least that's how I remember it, but I'm going over their posts first to see if I'm not reaching here.


Vivax had a great post here, albeit he drew the wrong conclusions. In the dynamic of this game, town has to push lynches. Being willing to lynch, and being involved in last-minute attempts to consolidate lynches are strong townie traits.

In this game, it is the mafia that were not bloodthirsty. LS was generally inactive around deadlines. Mr. CC almost highhandedly caused a no-lynch on D1. Onegu sat back and watched townies scream at each other.

Show nested quote +
On August 19 2020 03:41 Eywa- wrote:
I'm 100% always voting Damdred today by the way. Any votes cast for anyone but Damdred have a 0% chance of town win because I'm not moving.


These forced "binary choices" have come up in quite a few recent games, so I thought I'd point it out. In full disclosure, I ended up leading a mislynch in my most recent game against BloodyCobbler (oops) doing this same things.

All and all, I feel that these "binary" choices can be good if you are absolutely 100% sure that a player is mafia. The problem with this logic is that townies are rarely 100% sure of things. If they feel that they are, they usually vastly overestimate their accuracy and confidence.

With that said, binary choices limit a town's flexibility, and artificially amplify a player's propensity to tunnel on a target. It is no surprise that it led to a bad result in this game.

When you force a town to choose between one of two stupid options, logic dictates that they have a 100% chance of choosing a stupid option.


Hapa and I had a nice discussion about these things. I’ll post some thoughts during the week but mostly, I believe townplay is currently punishing people that gives lot of information and being too lenient with people that refuses to give information. Also, I believe town could have been better organised in the game.
I'm adorable.
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22424 Posts
August 23 2020 03:07 GMT
#1176
The hosting was awesome but the activity glut made it hard to pull enough information in time.
GlowingBear
Profile Joined May 2014
Brazil12446 Posts
August 23 2020 03:31 GMT
#1177
On August 23 2020 12:07 Vivax wrote:
The hosting was awesome but the activity glut made it hard to pull enough information in time.


Yeah, and to be fair, I was amazed when people decided LS should be the lynch. I find it very hard to catch LS as scum. The only way I can get him is by using a scum tell rsoultin once told me. So props to town for finding him.

But there was a point where people were basically accusing each other and not really listening. Fecalfeast pointed that out in a post that I’ll quote once I’m able to post a not-so-good GB analysis
I'm adorable.
Dadred
Profile Joined August 2020
249 Posts
August 23 2020 03:57 GMT
#1178
Yeah I am not going to be toxic. I really wish people would of looked into onegu with me.

I don't even think me being unafk at the end would of helped. I always try to kill Trfel there but onegu was acting scummy and coasting and no one would help me pressure last day was just basically called bad for even questioning it.

Anyway good game.

Trfel the reason you get scum read is because you are so iffy on everything. Which is great and leads to decent reads but can really get you in trouble.
Dadred
Profile Joined August 2020
249 Posts
August 23 2020 04:09 GMT
#1179
I don't mind being called scum but just want to work with people and actually play and we didn't actually play mafia most of the time.

It was really demoralizing and not fun at a point, and not talking about Ewya scum read on me.

Dadred
Profile Joined August 2020
249 Posts
August 23 2020 04:10 GMT
#1180
I had a scum read on CC for a few reasons at one point, everything was to neat and the votes were opportunistic. Sadness, should of stuck with my original gut on LS as well
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