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On June 04 2020 15:29 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 14:51 Trfel wrote:
I don't think Vivax is town, I just don't see any reason to call him mafia. I thought there were reasons for CopCake to be mafia, so I voted for her.
ShoCkeyy, what you're saying really doesn't make any sense at all to me. Yes I played in the Oil Futures mafia, but just because one of the lynch targets happened to be mafia there doesn't mean that they are here. That's very poor reasoning and I think you should know better than that. It does make sense cause I voted along with two mafia then which can be the case here again. Good night btw No, that really doesn't make sense at all. You were wrong last game, so you could be wrong here too. Sure, but that's not a reason at all?!? Yet you are saying it like it's foolproof.
Finished rereading the thread. Going to read some filters. I really don't like ShoCkeyy, I think Tictock is probably town, and possibly Jockmcplop, and maybe Vivax too.
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On June 04 2020 15:51 jeekaka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 15:47 Trfel wrote:On June 04 2020 15:00 jeekaka wrote:Vote count when you arrive: Vivax (3): Jockmcplop, raynpelikoneet, CopCake Trfel (2): Zey, Jeekaka CopCake (2): Vivax, ShoCkeyy ShocCkey (1): TicTock So, you dont think Vivax is town. You and cake are both next in two votes, and you vote Cake soon after, so you definitely don't think she's town. On June 04 2020 05:42 Trfel wrote:Why are we lynching people who are town?  So what on earth does this mean then? I was half-joking, and did kinda think CopCake was town (though my mind quickly changed). I sometimes assume people are town until there is evidence to the contrary, as was the case here (after which I got to business). The post served its purpose of attracting attention and not lynching Vivax, though. Which is good thing because..? Because I didn't see any reason to call Vivax mafia? I don't really get raynpelikoneet's case on Vivax. I mean, it makes sense and is logical, but I don't think it fits mafia motivation. Why would mafia be so uncooperative and lie about meta, what does it gain them?
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The other thing about ShoCkeyy that I really don't like is how he keeps having reads that are different and disconnected, but then he says he has no reads because it's Day 1. But he called out three things (no quotes because I'm on mobile) (one was he said he was suspicious of Vivax, and no, not his opening joke "vote;" and two, he said he was suspicious of three people for being suspicious of him, I forgot #3 and don't feel like looking it up). So either he's joking, which it doesn't seem like, and this wouldn't match his having fun/disconnected persona. Or he doesn't actually care about his reads, which makes him likely mafia.
The thing that makes me doubt (other than ShoCkeyy being difficult to read, caveat that I've read him correctly as both alignments) is that he did seem to care who was lynched Day 1. That makes me more unsure and hesitant.
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I could see raynpelikoneet being mafia too. Two main reasons. Firstly, his focus doesn't seem to match his scumreads. He posts a long post on why CopCake is suspicious and then votes for Vivax over something small, and then posts a mini case on me, and then still votes for Vivax.
And second, he doesn't feel very invested. He's been here and calling things out and it's logical and makes sense but he can do that as mafia, easily. But it doesn't feel like he really cares about what he's saying. He didn't clearly and concisely say why he thought Vivax was mafia until requested to, where if he really wanted Vivax lynched he could post a case on his own accord and actually push for that lynch. Before the flip raynpelikoneet didn't seem to care, and after he didn't seem to care either, only talking about Jockmcplop and not any of his other scumreads. I'm trying to not focus too hard on deadline stuff because apparently he needed to sleep but despite that he feels a bit disconnected and slightly apathetic to the game, despite being very present.
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On June 04 2020 16:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:
But why would shockeyy be orrational and do things that make people call him mafia if he is mafia, trfel? I think he plays in a similar way when he is mafia? (doing things that make people think he is mafia) And as far as being irrational, it feels to me like he tried to capitalize on a chance for free scumreads but couldn't produce a reason to justify it when pressured. Feels like he made it up.
I could be wrong but that's my thinking right now anyway.
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On June 05 2020 22:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:I am gonna answer Trfel though. Obviously i dont think his case has any merit but i wanna see what he does after. First thing is this: Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 15:53 Trfel wrote:On June 04 2020 15:51 jeekaka wrote:On June 04 2020 15:47 Trfel wrote:On June 04 2020 15:00 jeekaka wrote:Vote count when you arrive: Vivax (3): Jockmcplop, raynpelikoneet, CopCake Trfel (2): Zey, Jeekaka CopCake (2): Vivax, ShoCkeyy ShocCkey (1): TicTock So, you dont think Vivax is town. You and cake are both next in two votes, and you vote Cake soon after, so you definitely don't think she's town. On June 04 2020 05:42 Trfel wrote:Why are we lynching people who are town? So what on earth does this mean then? I was half-joking, and did kinda think CopCake was town (though my mind quickly changed). I sometimes assume people are town until there is evidence to the contrary, as was the case here (after which I got to business). The post served its purpose of attracting attention and not lynching Vivax, though. Which is good thing because..? Because I didn't see any reason to call Vivax mafia? I don't really get raynpelikoneet's case on Vivax. I mean, it makes sense and is logical, but I don't think it fits mafia motivation. (1) Why would mafia be so uncooperative and lie about meta, what does it gain them? (1) That was not the whole point. I hate when people take one small part of the case and (intentionally) fail to see the big picture. The big picture here is the following; I don't actually think someone falsely using meta is indeed scummy because people misremember things, and truth to be told Cake hasn't played that much here. But when i went and read the games they had played together it became apparent that Vivax is not telling the truth. You can all go and confirm what i said if you want to, here is the only game Vivax and Cake have been town in together on this forum. Whether Vivax was not telling the truth intentionally or not, the whole point regarding that stands. When you have based your scumread on false premises, and someone comes and debunks every argument for your scumread (which is literally what happened here), If you are town you start re-evaluating because your point doesn't actually hold water and you should know it. Vivax never does that. Trfel never acknowledges this fact (which is literally the point of my argument regarding this), and i don't like he's only arguing "half" of the argument because he can make up a "townie explanation" for part of it. Hope you get what i mean. Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 16:13 Trfel wrote:
I could see raynpelikoneet being mafia too. Two main reasons. (2) Firstly, his focus doesn't seem to match his scumreads. He posts a long post on why CopCake is suspicious and then votes for Vivax over something small, and then posts a mini case on me, and then still votes for Vivax.
And second, he doesn't feel very invested. He's been here and calling things out and it's logical and makes sense but he can do that as mafia, easily. But it doesn't feel like he really cares about what he's saying. (3) He didn't clearly and concisely say why he thought Vivax was mafia until requested to, where if he really wanted Vivax lynched he could post a case on his own accord and actually push for that lynch. Before the flip raynpelikoneet didn't seem to care, and (4) after he didn't seem to care either, only talking about Jockmcplop and not any of his other scumreads. I'm trying to not focus too hard on deadline stuff because apparently he needed to sleep but despite that he feels a bit disconnected and slightly apathetic to the game, despite being very present. (2) That is just simply untrue. You can go to my filter and see that i was never convinced that Cake was mafia. The reason i voted for Vivax originally was because he wouldn't give me an answer to my concern. When i pushed for the answer i got a mafia answer. I had no reason to switch my vote. I don't think i also had no reason to NOT question other things i found suspicious since there was still a lot of time left in the day (i mean if i think Vivax is mafia for having a bs townread on me why should i do nothing else than yelling he is mafia???). Then Trfel made his super bad backpedal from Cake read and i called it out. Then Vivax made his bs meta read and i called it out and added it to my scumread on him. Another thing here. I tend to encourage people to think with their own brain. Just because i didn't write a big case on Vivax right after i had "all the pieces" doesn't mean i didn't care about my scumread (or the game or whatever Trfel is saying). If you carefully read my filter you can very easily tell why i scumread Vivax even without the case. Like it is super obvious or at least should be. In addition to that, i literally had no time between the post where i ended my "chat" with Vivax and when i answered Zey about why am i voting for Vivax. I can sure post my "schedule" for my wednesday if anyone is concerned and had you not lynched Cake she could even confirm i am not lying if anyone is STILL concerned.... (3) See above. (4) I am not sure what i was supposed to question? Can someone tell me why i should question my scumreads Vivax/Trfel on why they voted for someone else than Vivax/Trfel? Because for me the answer is apparent lol. Jock's vote change in the end was suspect to me. Because it made no sense from town pov. So that's why i questioned it. What else was i supposed to question? Smells like terrible argument with no thinking behind it. So there is that, ball's in your court now Trfel. (1) I apologize, I didn't mean to intentionally misrepresent your point. I just missed the key part, apparently. I've been playing really poorly this game My fault, not yours. That makes a whole lot more sense, I'll have to rethink that then.
(2) through (4) I feel like are just a matter of opinion. Maybe my opinion is wrong. I'm less confident now than I was before, not that I was super confident before anyway, let me try and reread and see if anything comes up.
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Also, I apologize for my poor play this game. I don't really have any excuse I dunno why I'm so disconnected. I don't blame anyone for scumreading me because that makes total sense, heck I'd scumread myself if it wasn't for my role PM.
As far as the opening posts go, I found raynpelikoneet's first post (the "Hi" post) more interesting than Vivax's post, yes. I don't actually know what Vivax's post that you are referring to was (he only made one post at this time in the game, no?), I think some people are confused about what time I actually posted my point on. But the reasoning is the timing of the post. "Hi" isn't suspicious itself, it's that he didn't engage with the thread at all that I found slightly suspicious. It's not the content of the post, it's what wasn't in the post. Again, it's a small thing, and I was primarily focused on starting discussion, I don't actually think that makes raynpelikoneet mafia or anything. Just the best suspicion I had at the time.
If there are any further questions about this or anything else, please feel free to ask. I'll try and be around a bit. But it's difficult for me to get motivation to play when I can't figure out who is mafia and everyone thinks I am mafia
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On June 06 2020 03:34 Zey wrote:Show nested quote +Tictock wrote:
When I said "from Trfel's filter the cake read kinda makes sense" what I meant is that his cake read didn't just appear or change when he reappeared. In my opinion it did just appear. Even if you forget what he said N1 and D1 on the last hour, still. I don't see any hint that Trfel would think that Cake is scum. Like here: Show nested quote +Trfel wrote:
I asked CopCake about her townread on Jockmcplop because she didn't say a key part of it, that Jockmcplop's post felt genuine/sincere. Without that statement, there is no actual reason to townread Jockmcplop. (1) I know it wasn't likely to really go anywhere, but it's the start of the game, I'll jump on anything I can Just like raynpelikoneet's entrance. (2)To me it was the worst entrance at that point in the thread, because he didn't interact with anyone despite several people having already posted. (3)But it's not a big deal and I don't think much of it. (1) If I'm understanding this right he is saying that his question to Cake didn't lead to any opinion about her and there wasn't even really a change to lead anywhere. (2) Trfel is saying that even rayns hi was scummier than Cakes townread on Jock. And (3) he doesn't really think that even that was scummy. So how you are thinking that Cake read didn't just appear? Yes, it's correct. My decision to scumread CopCake came in just a few minutes as I was quickly reading filters before the lynch.
As for why I questioned CopCake, if she didn't respond that way, then I think it would have been a valid reason to scumread her. Yes, I know I got the most likely response (regardless of alignment), but is that a reason to not try? Especially at the start of the game, I think it's worth pursuing a little, it doesn't hurt anything.
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Oh, and who was it that accused me of having too low of an accuracy of scumreads? Yes I was wrong on CopCake, and for that I apologize, but being wrong in one read on Day 1 isn't that noteworthy honestly. Kinda annoyed at that reason to scumread me. Almost seems dumb enough I might OMGUS it.
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On June 06 2020 03:22 ShoCkeyy wrote:
But this point I just don't see how Trfel can survive D2, he's essentially been floating by without having to even put effort into the game. This is actually nonsense, sure I haven't been very effective but I have been here. I was absent for a 24-hour period (or so) in the middle of Day 1, but outside of that I've been here. I've explained reasons to be suspicious of people. I've contributed more reads and more explanations to the game than ShoCkeyy has, for example. Yes, I'm having a hard time finding mafia this game, but so is everyone. Blindly saying I'm not trying at all shows a clear lack of reading, and feels like blatantly lying about my play this game.
Players who "float by without putting in effort" don't reread filters, or post mini-cases, and post more when they're being scumread.
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On June 02 2020 23:50 Zey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2020 23:31 jeekaka wrote:
I can actually see the world where Copcake is town and Scum!Trfel sees Cake's townread of Jock as an easy thing to pick up. I don't think that Trfel's question about Cake's townread was scummy. To me it just looks somebody who wants people to talk more that game would really start. It would be different if he would have said that Cake is scummy because of that. But I'm still wondering why he said that rayn's first post was scummiest entrance. I mean I don't see how it would be scummiest and I don't see how Trfel can believe that he would get any read about rayn with something like that. Posts like this stick out to me too. Why bother defending someone you are about to scumread? Especially with how confident this early scumread seems to be.
Looking through Zey's filter, I'm actually extremely unimpressed. She has contributed very little to this game, only a scumread on me (discussed in most of her posts) and a scumread on Tictock (the only reason given is because his top scumread was ShoCkeyy). If you are trying to find a potential mafia floating "under the radar," look at Zey. I could very easily see Zey being mafia here.
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On June 05 2020 19:10 jeekaka wrote:And that detail about Zey: Show nested quote +On June 05 2020 05:33 Zey wrote:Jock wrote:
I'm considering switching to copcake right now.
Reasons:
The voting late on which looks like self preservation, the threat to switch to trfel which i think comes from a mafia place (ensuring 3 votes on trfel because i was getting cold feet about the lynch), the early townread on me followed by reassuring me into keeping my vote on vivax. It all seems very convenient. Hmm, wasn't Cake getting cold feet before you even mentioned you were getting? Half an hour later Jock is dead. I just think subconsciously you probably would not start questioning someone who you know is not gonna be there to answer. Jeekaka, I think you are probably town (you've raised points that are actually decent), but I highly disagree with this. I know before that as mafia I have posted large cases on people that I was night-killing at the deadline, to make the night kill less associated with me. I don't think this is a valid point at all and would encourage you to re-evaluate your read on Zey.
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Honestly I kinda liked raynpelikoneet's response to my post on him. His first point in particular makes a ton of sense, I had not thought about it that way at all. I can still see him being mafia here (I have little reason to townread him, since I know he is a strong scum player), but I'm a bit hesitant to lynch him today. I feel like ShoCkeyy and Zey are better targets.
I actually feel decent about mafia being in ShoCkeyy/Zey/maybe raynpelikoneet/mayyyyybe Vivax. I realize that Vivax has been lazy this game, which is consistent with his typical mafia meta (as breakable as that may be), and he is a very capable town player. So that does point to him being mafia. However I think it's possible for town players to have off-games, and if ever there was a game for an off-game, it would be this one (it's kinda demotivating when there is so little activity/response and everyone is suspicious of you, another example of this is myself of course). When I read Vivax's posts, in general his reads seem to make sense.
For example, in contrast to ShoCkeyy and Zey, Vivax has been lazier, but I know what he thinks and why. And except for the meta read on CopCake (as raynpelikoneet pointed out), I can see where he is coming from in his reads. He's brought up some original points and such. So I'm guessing Vivax is town here.
In fact, I should probably take a second look at Tictock, since Vivax says so. But for now, I'll vote for ShoCkeyy.
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On June 06 2020 11:27 ShoCkeyy wrote:
You just wrote a bunch of nothing to just say you’re going to vote for me. Cool man. I didn't write a bunch of nothing. Please explain how you can call my reads "a bunch of nothing."
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On June 06 2020 11:41 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 11:29 Trfel wrote:On June 06 2020 11:27 ShoCkeyy wrote:
You just wrote a bunch of nothing to just say you’re going to vote for me. Cool man. I didn't write a bunch of nothing. Please explain how you can call my reads "a bunch of nothing." That’s exactly what you did to me. You said I had no reads yet you didn’t even try and read anything I wrote. You just put these huge walls of text and then say you’re going to vote for me. I feel like I essentially re-read your first 10 posts all over again. First, I never said you have no reads. Second, I've read your filter several times.
I'm really not sure what you are getting at.
There's a really big difference between what I have said and "no reads." In fact, over these past several posts I've barely talked about you, because nothing has changed much. How do you feel like it's repetitive, when I barely mentioned you?
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Look, ShoCkeyy, I'm happy to re-evaluate my read on you. But it's really hard for me to do that when you're accusing me of not reading your posts, when in fact I've done the opposite.
I made one post where I said I don't know what your reads are except for one scumread. Please go back in your filter and show me other posts you made before then with other reads. I acknowledged your one read.
In future posts, after which you posted more reads, I even acknowledged those reads. Your lack of reads is not a reason I am scumreading you, because you do have reads. That's what my posts say.
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Looking through TicTock's filter, I think he could definitely be mafia here too. Probably not with ShoCkeyy, which puts me in an awkward position.
It's his read progression on ShoCkeyy and Vivax that makes no sense to me. He scumreads ShoCkeyy for posting useless things, sure. Then he eventually kinda backs off on ShoCkeyy some (? unclear what he really thought about ShoCkeyy) due to trusting Vivax, a null to slight town read. Then he decides that me and Vivax are mafia but still thinks ShoCkeyy is town, presumably based on Vivax's reasoning.
The ShoCkeyy read feels forced here. It goes away when it's convenient and comes back when it's convenient, regardless of what logic would suggest. The scumread on Vivax came up out of nowhere, too.
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What does that have anything to do with anything I said? I never said you didn't do that.
If you are town, please work with me here. If you're mafia, keep doing exactly this.
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Hey jeekaka, any thoughts about who to vote for? Any thoughts on my scumreads?
Honestly I'm really disappointed at having no feedback or thoughts, then people are just going to come back tomorrow and lynch me for not contributing It's really discouraging. I wish I could at least talk to people but it doesn't seem like that is the case.
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On June 06 2020 14:18 jeekaka wrote:
I think your scumreads are decent, actually i listed Shock/Zey in my possible scum pairs as well.
Mostly I just wonder about you and Vivax hard townreading each other. You yourself admit it's very reasonable to suspect you - what do you think about Vivax not suspecting you at all? I don't want to dive deep into self-meta since I think self-meta is a very ridiculous thing. As in, typically it's too much to expect other people to fully understand/recognize/believe it.
Vivax knows my play fairly well, he was actually my coach in my first mafia game here. He knows I've had my share of effortful and lazy games. Furthermore I don't think he's calling me town, I believe he's more saying I'm null, which is (imo) a reasonable stance. See here (bold):On June 05 2020 22:54 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2020 22:51 ShoCkeyy wrote:On June 05 2020 03:53 Vivax wrote:
Will consider looking into him a bit harder.
But basically he's been very townie last game and lynched regardless, so maybe now he cba to try too hard.
But that's the point, he's not trying to look like he's trying hard and the way he casually called out rayn felt townie to me.
As mafia he was more...Contributive, but in a quantity over quality way. While he talked about a lot of stuff you didn't get a picture of where his head was at, much like I feel about TT this game. Did you look into Trfel or not?  Yep. Doesn't shift me particularly either way.His rayn scumread-ish is interesting but not worth putting much weight into if he doesn't pursue it further. I'm still in a TT+zey world. I'm reading Vivax more town than he's reading me. But both of us have other targets we feel are better lynches, to me that seems fine.
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EPT
