[M][T] Secret Hitler, Act I, Take II

On October 31 2018 09:59 prplhz wrote:

Because you didn't know he was in it or because you had forgotten it?

On October 31 2018 10:01 Grackaroni wrote:

Why did you vote no?

On October 31 2018 12:42 byj wrote:

Why though, even if rayn was Scum, he'd be 'forced' to enact a liberal policy from what he posted.

On November 01 2018 01:06 kitaman27 wrote:


Eh this explanation is a lot more scummy now that you lay it out. It would be one thing to ask for more time by failing a few and then eventually passing, but now that I think of it, a policy to reject all governments is really anti-town.

On our first draw FFF would be like 24% (someone check my math?), as opposed to a 65% chance (11/17) of a fail from a single draw. That's really, really far from optimal.

On November 01 2018 01:52 happykrogan wrote:


How will votes on a government that didn't pass (on the first day at least) be more telling than a passed government?
Like what can you get out of these votes that will help you to read people until you can vote for the next government?

On November 01 2018 03:06 happykrogan wrote:

Thank you for the explanation...
Could you please go ahead and give also an answer to my question you quoted there?

On November 01 2018 03:12 happykrogan wrote:

conversion lied. Here's the proof

On November 01 2018 03:10 happykrogan wrote:

Also it is likely that we get at least once fff. And if the two fascists that are not hitler get into government and enact fascist policies, we have three, which would let mafia auto-win if hitler gets in the government. So hitler could enact liberal policies to get in the town circle.

On November 01 2018 03:10 happykrogan wrote:

Also it is likely that we get at least once fff. And if the two fascists that are not hitler get into government and enact fascist policies, we have three, which would let mafia auto-win if hitler gets in the government. So hitler could enact liberal policies to get in the town circle.

On November 01 2018 06:19 happykrogan wrote:
Conversion did a very good in totally confusing me...
I don't get what he wanted to say, but I guess it doesn't matter as his theory was under a wrong understanding of the game mechanics...?

He still lied though

On November 01 2018 11:26 happykrogan wrote:

you might not believe me, but I actually think lying is a scummy thing to do.
And you did lie, as you stated two contradicting things.

Also I think this response is scummy.
It doesn't fit into the careless attitude you showed, because you are clearly bothered by it.
Also instead of explaining why you said what you said as town (what town should be capable of), you decided to attack me and my credibility, calling it an desperate attempt of generating content.
Also you made this post, which I interpret as an attempt of making me look stupid


Where I stated that trying to figure out your argument was confusing me (before I read your last post of course), which I admit was unnecessary to state as I already realized it doesn't matter anyways.

But the way you attacked me on it, together with the second post, seems like scum trying to defend themself by making the person with the argument look bad opposed to trying to convince him that argument was flawed.

On November 01 2018 11:14 Grackaroni wrote:
Cool.

I'm probably going to pick either Conversion on Rels.

On November 01 2018 18:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Anyways i dont think grackaroni should choose conversion as chancellor anyways since conversion is next in line for president.

On November 02 2018 23:07 kitaman27 wrote:
What's your opinion of prpl? I don't see him mentioned in your filter. Since you failed the pair yesterday, but are willing to pass today's team, does that mean that your original policy is no longer necessary?

If you're voting yes today and you're on board with selecting rayn or krogan next cycle, does that mean you think the facist team is myself/Rels/byj?

On November 01 2018 00:38 Conversion wrote:
In all seriousness, I like to always pass the first go, in any similar game like mafia when possible, to reveal where votes went and talk about that to get more information and give me one more round to work with, since drawing a random card as a policy isn't the worst thing ever, neither is adding one to the election tracker early on.

Whether that's optimal or not, I'm not quite sure but I do like doing it. Considering we can get RNG'd and get a F/F/F draw (unless this is impossible, someone correct me please if it is), I don't see why we're in any rush to elect this particular government.

On November 02 2018 23:35 Grackaroni wrote:
After lots of paranoia I'm actually going to vote NO on this team.

I don't trust the way Rayn/HK are both pushing the idea that the scum team is just the two lurkers byj/rels, even though neither of them have done anything specifically scummy, and I think that probably one of Rayn/HK will be scum.

I'm uneasy about the fact that it doesn't seem like I can pass the team that I actually think is town in Me/conversion, but this team is already set to pass between Rayn/HK/prplhz/Conversion voting yes.

Also, despite actually posting, Prplhz isn't showing any sign of thinking about people's alignments and I don't like that rather than trying to evaluate my alignment he posts this nonsense:




I feel pretty uneasy about this atm so instead I'm going to try to push through Conversion's team. And I actually feel a bit better about Kitaman for the post questioning why byj is scummy, so I'm ok with trying Kitaman's team as a fallback.

On November 02 2018 23:47 Grackaroni wrote:

He says me/prp are above you/byj/Rels.

On November 02 2018 20:00 happykrogan wrote:
I'm going to vote yes.

I am not entirely confident in the team, but if I would only vote teams of two players I townread I would almost never vote yes.
And Grack and prplhz are at least less scummy then Rels/Conversion/byj

And whatever happens, we always get information out of it, so I generally prefer voting yes anyway.

On November 02 2018 23:49 kitaman27 wrote:


Fair enough. Do you have any opinion of prpl specifically?

On November 01 2018 02:46 prplhz wrote:

It's that I don't have unlimited time and people were super mad.

I'm thinking about some other things too, but I'm not ready to post.

On November 02 2018 10:00 prplhz wrote:
I think it's acceptable if we already discarded 1L and 2F.

On November 03 2018 00:13 happykrogan wrote:

My problem is that you appaer really scummy to me, but rayn who played way more than me (and is most likely town as he enacted a liberal policy where could have enacted a fascist one) and Grack (who I have nothing against except your joke/communication which was probably nothing) read you as town.
So I am really torn right now.
Also you look better now. I planned looking into you again when I have to(when you're the presidential candidate).
That lying will bother me the whole game though...

As for your question: Neither of them is more probable than the other, as you don't really mention each other.

On November 03 2018 00:26 kitaman27 wrote:
I think it's scummy that Conversion was cool with passing grack and prpl through, yet when I asked him to justify a prpl read, he admits he hasn't really looked at him.

On November 03 2018 00:41 kitaman27 wrote:


I disagree because literally any two players will give us information, considering only krogan and rayn have been elected and they can't be chosen. Doesn't it make more sense to get information AND vote for two players that have the best chance of passing a liberal policy?

Now that you've read through prpl, does that change your mind about the vote?



I think you made a solid point about prpl being "not ready to post.", which doesn't really make sense if you have something important to say unless you're laying a trap, which doesn't seem like prpl's style. I'm still pretty conflicted about whether I'm going to vote yes or no on this one.

On November 03 2018 02:41 Conversion wrote:


Theoretically speaking, if we don't pass this government (which I think has a higher likelihood of having minimum 1 liberal 1 facist), we get to me. I have a pretty uphill battle to climb to get my government passed-- if I pass Grack/prplhz which I feel somewhat okay about even if we pass a facist policy, I now can enact a government with rayn/HK on it to try and get another liberal policy through.

If this government gets passed though, I think I still cannot enact rayn/HK (unless I'm misunderstanding the rules), which leads me to try and make a team with Grack or you, which I'm not sure people will pass.

In the worst case scenario, we pass two governments and then, with almost no new information, have to decide on a randomized policy, or auto-passing the government, which I think is not a great spot for liberals to be in.

On November 05 2018 01:18 kitaman27 wrote:
My new tiers for trustworthiness would be:

tier 1: krogan, grack, rayn
tier 2: prpl
tier 3: byj, conversion, rels

I think grack rejecting his own presidency is rather town looking considering the decent opportunity to pass FF. Now that byj has started posting more, I think he looks a lot worse by purposely withholding his reads and asking random questions that don't seem like they serve a purpose.

I'm going to vote down the conversion team. For my presidency, I'd likely nominate krogan who I have a slightly better feeling on, compared to rayn, but I still haven't decided for sure.

On November 03 2018 03:06 Conversion wrote:
pressed post.. whoops. in that case if we think prplhz is a hitler/facist combo, we veto this 100%, but I think the likelihood of it being 1 liberal 1 facist is much higher.

On November 03 2018 01:21 happykrogan wrote:


As I am conflicted about Conversion I don't really have someone I am convinced is a fascist right now. I have a few people I think are scummy and I would prefer not to vote.
Conversion: Lying but I reconsider him when he is presidential candidate

Rels: What Rayn said + being inactive but writing some easy to make oneliners when he is in thread
Examples:





I think Inactivity + a few generic posts is a lot more scummier than just not writing anything

byj: less scummy than rels. posted nothing mentionworth except this:

after I asked him to contribute more. The only read he has and it's an easy to make a read about one post.

Generally my gameplan is not really to find scum, but town so I can vote them.
But then I realized if I only vote my top townreads I almost always will vote no, so I will at least vote now for information.
So I voted yes here even if haze is slightly scummy (because Conversion after him is more scummy - at least at the time I made the vote)

On November 03 2018 00:23 happykrogan wrote:

yes. I didn't really tried to find a team connection yet. I just listed scummy individuals. And not mentioning each other doesn't mean you are not im a team.

I will read through some filters later until I can give you an answer to the other question that will satisfy myself.

On November 03 2018 04:48 prplhz wrote:

Uh, I think he started the whole mess about me and kita but then he sort of slipped out of it and just stood on the sidelines.

He made a post about probabilities that I sort of disagreed with and looked like he was just spreading chaos.

His posting style has some sort of straight forwardsness to it that I associate with townies so that's good.

I don't like how he's treating this election this though, voting no to himself, but you should still elect me.

I don't have a ton of reads, I kind of like krogan but that's it. I'm equally uncertain about you and kita, Conversion seems to actively attempt to lose this game, I don't know if Rels always acts like this? Like he doesn't player D1 and then he doesn't really play D2 and then he complains on D3 or something. byj sort of slipped under the radar with me but kita pointed out some meta about him and tons of people play like this as town.

I was uncertain about Grackaroni and Conversion (which was part of the reason I voted for krogan and you) but I thought I'd figure out kita a bit better before long so I might be able to vote for his government but that's not really happening.

On November 05 2018 20:05 byj wrote:

Thanks <3

<3
Probably the game before that


What makes you think they don't serve a purpose?



I was hoping for people to come 'defend' my plan, or try to not push me too hard. There would be no reason to do so, so I can assume the people doing so are Scum trying to gain my credit. Especially now in hindsight that Rels and Conversation seem to be easy to push as Scum instead (doesn't mean I think they're innocent either, they flatout ignored what I did =\).

On November 06 2018 00:50 kitaman27 wrote:
Anyone notice how Conversion was happy to play a back seat role until now? Suddenly it's his turn and he starts attacking the people who are questioning his alignment. I think that shows that he's more invested in getting elected as opposed to figuring out the game the previous couple of cycles, where he simply went with policy votes.

On November 06 2018 00:51 happykrogan wrote:

So you're in fact uncertain about prplhz...
I thought you may scumread him because of this:

but then that's one less read you have. that's ok... Sorry for putting words in your mouth, that in my mind would have made you less scummy.
As to kita: He has made some reads:
I won't quote them because I don't want this post to get too long, but I say some postnumbers
#213 #543 you are scummy
#289 He is not a big fan of Rels
#303 a big post where he says where everybody stands in his opinion
#365 #535 putting people in tiers
#453 "2 of my scumreads"

BTW i'm not saying kita is town here. I'm just saying Conversions read is untrue.

On November 06 2018 00:52 happykrogan wrote:
BTW I just remember a game where Conversion got really angry as he was scumread and ended up as scum.

On November 03 2018 01:21 happykrogan wrote:


As I am conflicted about Conversion I don't really have someone I am convinced is a fascist right now. I have a few people I think are scummy and I would prefer not to vote.
Conversion: Lying but I reconsider him when he is presidential candidate

Rels: What Rayn said + being inactive but writing some easy to make oneliners when he is in thread
Examples:





I think Inactivity + a few generic posts is a lot more scummier than just not writing anything

byj: less scummy than rels. posted nothing mentionworth except this:

after I asked him to contribute more. The only read he has and it's an easy to make a read about one post.

Generally my gameplan is not really to find scum, but town so I can vote them.
But then I realized if I only vote my top townreads I almost always will vote no, so I will at least vote now for information.
So I voted yes here even if haze is slightly scummy (because Conversion after him is more scummy - at least at the time I made the vote)

On November 06 2018 01:02 happykrogan wrote:

So then you have my honest pity.

On November 06 2018 01:07 happykrogan wrote:

Look: I proved I didn't lie. Something you're unable to do

On November 06 2018 01:15 happykrogan wrote:
You're too fixated on that meta read. I remembered it and said it. Then you pointed out why it was bs and I took it back.

On November 06 2018 01:30 happykrogan wrote:

the main reason is the two things combined.
I don't know how to make it clearer so I ignore that from now on.

On November 06 2018 02:56 byj wrote:

Why exactly again?

On November 05 2018 22:51 byj wrote:

Is getting reads onto people not a plan?

There are only 3 Scums, so 'having a solid scumread' against 3 as Scum would be sub-optimal, since then you'd pretty much expected to vote for everyone else. So max. 2 townies, but likely more, if you're Hitler, or pretending to play against other Fascists.

I really don't get the logic in that conclusion, care to elaborate?

On November 08 2018 00:40 Rels wrote:

I see your intent but I disagree since I'm pretty sure kita is scum. We can pass kita, elect me/Grack; then if a facsist pass you can go on with your plan, if a liberal passes we have basically won

On November 09 2018 00:22 kitaman27 wrote:


Heh if I were scum I'd totally buddy up to you to try to earn your vote, but the fact of matter is that I do in fact still think you're mafia.

Could you explain the discrepancy in the posts I just pointed out?

On October 30 2018 08:58 kitaman27 wrote:


Why not go the resistance route and just roll with the guys that are providing positive results? Sure a facist policy isn't going to end the game right away, but wouldn't it be better to ride the initial liberal policy pushers as much as possible until they give us a reason to doubt them?

On October 31 2018 04:29 kitaman27 wrote:
It sounds like we're talking about different situations. I'm saying roll with the good guys as long as we can and once we hit a fail, re-evaluate if it's a 3F or sabotage. Electing Hitler won't need to be something to worry about as much before that because we're not at that threshold. Once we do cross that threshold, it obviously becomes a bigger concern.

On November 01 2018 23:37 kitaman27 wrote:
This would be my ranking of trustworthiness at the moment.

happykrogan
raynpelikoneet
byj
prplhz
Grackaroni
Conversion
Rels

I have krogan slightly higher than rayn because I think the president slot has more wiggle room to send a double F through and get away with it, but I'm not entirely concerned about either. I'm always paranoid about playing games with rayn since I can't ever think of a situation where it worked out well when I trusted him, but even with the few things that I've disagreed with him so far, there don't seem to be inconsistencies in the logic. byj is kinda weird because it doesn't seem like he really cares about how he looks, which I think typically points to liberal. I had the same initial feeling about Conversion, but then I didn't like his explanation about the fail plan and he's got this sarcastic attitude with some of his posts that feel a bit manufactured. prpl is in the same boat as byj as someone who hasn't really said much, but I'd say prpl is worse because he's putting in slightly more effort to show he cares with a few random questions that don't really lead anywhere and a couple of wishy washy posts. I've already spoken about Rels about why I think he's a baddie. Grack I've gone back and forth on. On one hand, he didn't really seem invested in getting elected D1 and even if I he's wrong about his suspicion of me, I can see a viewpoint where a townie thinks that, but on the other hand, I didn't like his early game posting about prpl and picking Rels or conversion seems like the easiest path to rig the deck as president and then pass blame to your scummy looking choice. It does seem unlikely that grack would want to pair himself with another facist early on in the game however so I probably need to do some adjusting of my bottom three, either by moving grack up or replacing conversion/rels with someone else.

On November 02 2018 23:34 kitaman27 wrote:


I think the difference is that your argument is that grack with Rels/Conversion cannot make sense in mind, where as mine was that I'd update the list if that scenario where grack pairs himself with one of those players became reality. He threw it out there for a little bit, but settled on prpl eventually, which I don't think is enough to disregard the possibility completely.

Do you think there is a strong enough argument to completely eliminate the possibility of grack + Rels or grack + conversion at the moment? I don't think so.

Overall though, I think my trust ratings are better suited as tiers.
tier 1: krogan/rayn (myself)
tier 2: byj/prl/grack
tier 3: conversion/rels

On November 05 2018 01:18 kitaman27 wrote:
My new tiers for trustworthiness would be:

tier 1: krogan, grack, rayn
tier 2: prpl
tier 3: byj, conversion, rels

I think grack rejecting his own presidency is rather town looking considering the decent opportunity to pass FF. Now that byj has started posting more, I think he looks a lot worse by purposely withholding his reads and asking random questions that don't seem like they serve a purpose.

I'm going to vote down the conversion team. For my presidency, I'd likely nominate krogan who I have a slightly better feeling on, compared to rayn, but I still haven't decided for sure.

On November 07 2018 05:32 kitaman27 wrote:
Cool.

There was at least one facist who has been elected so far, which means they either chose not to sabotage or didn't have an opportunity to sabotage. I think the facist player would usually choose to sabotage if they have the opportunity, unless they are Hitler.

Unless things really, really spiral out of control it seems unlikely that we'd hit 6 facist policies. The path to victory seems to be pretty straight forward and we have a dt check as a safe guard for when we eventually hit FFF. If we get a town result, that gives us a decent way to avoid Hitler as chancellor for half of the elections.

Either Krogan or Grack for me this cycle. I'm going to re-read one more time before I decide to see if I can figure out who the elected facist might be.

On November 09 2018 01:55 kitaman27 wrote:


Huh? During your presidency only krogan, rayn, and grack had alignment indicative results from the elections. I'm not sure what you mean why you say that you showed a positive result.



That's correct. I think that's scummy reasoning.



The term limits meant that I couldn't take rayn or krogan who were at the top of my list. I wasn't going to get chosen by you or grack, which pretty much means that I had to pick players from my middle tier. It didn't include you and Rels so I passed it through. You're really framing your argument to fit your narrative here.



Correction, I know that a facist player was elected. At this point, I'm leaning towards either you being Hitler or prpl being a facist who didn't need to make a choice on d2.



Well I think I made it pretty clear with my latest post that I think you and Rels are connected. Hardly a soft jab.

On November 09 2018 00:17 happykrogan wrote:

I will decide on who I prefer before deadline.
If I end up prefering you and you don't get voted, I will 100% vote Rels anyway.
If I end up prefering Rels and you get voted I will 100% not vote Rels, so we can follow the plan.

On November 09 2018 07:17 kitaman27 wrote:
I think today was actually a really good day for information even if I don't pass.

Conversion suddenly changing his view of me and Rels is really telling I think.

On November 09 2018 07:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I think i want to vote yes here.

On November 09 2018 07:37 kitaman27 wrote:


I'm not rayn, but I think "here" is pretty obviously referring to yes on this vote for me.

On November 13 2018 00:48 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I think we are 1L5F no?