|
On March 11 2018 19:42 Holyflare wrote:
The fake claim either wasted a mafia medic or rb on myself or df.
Nice try, but if you were Town, your fake claim accomplished nothing at all on Night 1. It may have accomplished something later...if you hadn't suddenly told everyone it was fake. But it did nothing on Night 1. It doesn't make any difference who the mafia targeted with either of those roles. The course of action I laid out made both of the mafia roles irrelevant, remember? Vivax suggested having DF heal a secret target of his choosing, while the other 2 medics picked a target to kill. THEN the mafia roles would matter. But since I shut his idea down and we all targeted prpl, the mafia roles were literally helpless. The fake medic claim could only have helped later.
On March 11 2018 19:42 Holyflare wrote:
Now about me rescinding the claim? Why would I keep it up? There's no benefit to weaving a lie the entire day 2. If I say I was still medic that healed df then that means he's likely mafia when it turns out he might not be. It also grossly misleads people. Waste of time. More info is way better than making people waste time assuming wrong scenarios. If I say I healed prplhz then they'll ask why I was still not pushing df. Again, waste of time.
Yes, if you say you're a medic that healed DF then you would need to lead a push on him under false pretenses. So you don't say that. This is why what you *would* say is that you actually healed prpl too. You say that if you told us that, people will ask why you weren't still pushing DF...how does that change any by you saying you weren't really a medic? The medic claim being fake doesn't explain why you would stop pushing DF. Being a real medic or fake medic shouldn't affect your read on him at all. So no, this is not a legitimate reason to start off Day 2 by saying the fake was claim, if you were town. There are only scum motivations to do it.
|
On March 11 2018 19:49 Holyflare wrote:Vivax and ff heal noob and df. Df and noob heal each other. If df and noob are both medics then mafia cover for the non-medic by healing df or noob and both die. Mafia also have a nk and kill either into the non-medic pool or the medic pool. Killing into the medic pool guarantees mafia. Non medic pool gives us 50/50.
On March 11 2018 19:49 Holyflare wrote:
That is if they are both medics.
lol, almost forgot you're not supposed to know that DF and I are both true medics?
On March 11 2018 19:50 Holyflare wrote:
We have a 50/50 shot of killing or finding mafia in the medics tonight.
By risking a night where 3 Town players die in a single night, and the Town must lynch correctly 2 days in a row to avoid losing. Instead of just following the comparatively easy-peasy path to victory we earned with the mass claim. If you aren't scum, why do you keep looking for things we can do that will give the mafia a fighting chance?
|
On March 11 2018 20:19 Holyflare wrote:
It also DOES change my read on df. If DF is town then I fully believe mafia would think I'm healing him and waste their medic heal on him as a chance to get two night kills. If DF is a town medic then they think I'm also a town medic and instead of wasting their NK on DF for guaranteed medic kills they use their NK on AMG and try and get two kills in one since that's their only option.
If I did not say that I was healing df and he was a town medic then they nk him and we're down a medic for later in the game with no other nk info and we're still in the same mass claim situation with a mafia fake claiming.
There's no way for you to know whether "they think you're also a town medic" in that scenario. But that doesn't even matter. There's nothing stopping them from just killing DF if that's what they want to do. "That's their only option?" No it's not. If DF is a true town medic, then even if they believe you are one too, but aren't sure whether you're telling the truth about healing him, they can just RB you and kill him anyway. There's no way for your fake claim to keep them from killing any player they want (including the revealed medic), and there was no way for their roles to keep US from killing whoever WE want.
|
On March 11 2018 20:35 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2018 20:32 n00bKing wrote:On March 11 2018 20:19 Holyflare wrote:
It also DOES change my read on df. If DF is town then I fully believe mafia would think I'm healing him and waste their medic heal on him as a chance to get two night kills. If DF is a town medic then they think I'm also a town medic and instead of wasting their NK on DF for guaranteed medic kills they use their NK on AMG and try and get two kills in one since that's their only option.
If I did not say that I was healing df and he was a town medic then they nk him and we're down a medic for later in the game with no other nk info and we're still in the same mass claim situation with a mafia fake claiming. There's no way for you to know whether "they think you're also a town medic" in that scenario. But that doesn't even matter. There's nothing stopping them from just killing DF if that's what they want to do. "That's their only option?" No it's not. If DF is a true town medic, then even if they believe you are one too, but aren't sure whether you're telling the truth about healing him, they can just RB you and kill him anyway. There's no way for your fake claim to keep them from killing any player they want (including the revealed medic), and there was no way for their roles to keep US from killing whoever WE want. Two kills for the price of one is attractive, noob. It means a quicker end. I'd take that risk as scum.
Lotta room between what you would choose to do, and saying "it was their only option." If DF is town and they wanted to make sure he died, they could have. But if HF is on that scum team, then making DF the night-kill undoes all of HF's work to get him lynched and hurts his credibility to boot.
On March 11 2018 20:35 rsoultin wrote:
What makes it impossible for what hf is saying to be true?
It isn't "impossible" or I would be saying he's dead-lock caught scum. But if you want to know why I don't believe him, you only need to go look at the case I posted against him again.
|
On March 11 2018 20:47 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2018 20:44 n00bKing wrote:On March 11 2018 20:35 rsoultin wrote:On March 11 2018 20:32 n00bKing wrote:On March 11 2018 20:19 Holyflare wrote:
It also DOES change my read on df. If DF is town then I fully believe mafia would think I'm healing him and waste their medic heal on him as a chance to get two night kills. If DF is a town medic then they think I'm also a town medic and instead of wasting their NK on DF for guaranteed medic kills they use their NK on AMG and try and get two kills in one since that's their only option.
If I did not say that I was healing df and he was a town medic then they nk him and we're down a medic for later in the game with no other nk info and we're still in the same mass claim situation with a mafia fake claiming. There's no way for you to know whether "they think you're also a town medic" in that scenario. But that doesn't even matter. There's nothing stopping them from just killing DF if that's what they want to do. "That's their only option?" No it's not. If DF is a true town medic, then even if they believe you are one too, but aren't sure whether you're telling the truth about healing him, they can just RB you and kill him anyway. There's no way for your fake claim to keep them from killing any player they want (including the revealed medic), and there was no way for their roles to keep US from killing whoever WE want. Two kills for the price of one is attractive, noob. It means a quicker end. I'd take that risk as scum. Lotta room between what you would choose to do, and saying "it was their only option." If DF is town and they wanted to make sure he died, they could have. But if HF is on that scum team, then making DF the night-kill undoes all of HF's work to get him lynched and hurts his credibility to boot. On March 11 2018 20:35 rsoultin wrote:
What makes it impossible for what hf is saying to be true? It isn't "impossible" or I would be saying he's dead-lock caught scum. But if you want to know why I don't believe him, you only need to go look at the case I posted against him again. Fair, I just don't think that quibbling over terminology is helpful. Either in clarifying a read or pushing your target. Which is perhaps hypocritical cause I have the same problem myself, just saying. Don't think this argument is going anywhere.
Sometimes terminology matters, sometimes it doesn't. I've definitely seen scum before that would speak in "absolutes" that really weren't, and notice it as a pattern of those players' scum games. Holyflare isn't one of those players, so I don't know for sure. But it's at least something that town *ideally* would not do. And saying that scum could not have killed a town DF is as objectively false as when he tried to tell me that I moved off of Tubesock while he was the leading wagon. It's just not true, and it looks like "lazy scum" to me. (An investigative town player can at least read a damn vote count. Lazy scum may not bother.) Then he talks about Vivax being the first medic claim and me being the last, like as if there's anything remotely alignment-indicative about it. He's smarter than that, right? So why is it still getting posted? Looks like lazy scum to me. Where are his salient posts about why Koshi is scum, instead of just saying "he replaced in and posted mechanics. Cool. He's mafia." I'll say this much, though: If HF is scum, then you'll definitely be right that "this argument isn't going anywhere."
|
On March 11 2018 19:42 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2018 15:32 n00bKing wrote:On March 11 2018 10:04 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Is there anything anyone wants me to look into? I've shared all my thoughts so I'm down with answering questions people have on my reads. Yeah, I have a question about your reads. Who is the VT scum? The other vanilla claims are: Slam, HF, rsoul and Koshi. Who should get shot tonight? I don't feel like you're interacting with any of them like as if they are scumreads. Does your own PoE tell you that the VT scummer is you?  Slam rsoul and holy are likely town. Im not voting slam probs ever because I want to townread him and this looks like town Slam anyway. Rsoul is likely town because you're pocketing her and other stuff. Holy could be mafia but his thought process lines with mine so I doubt hes scum. So koshi would be my vote here. There is tinfoil where maybe rsoul is pocketing you and her goddawful tunnel on town hf and bad townread on prpl or hf is mafia pocketing me but meh.
HF pocketing you isn't "tinfoil." After all your talk about rsoul's "goddawful tunnel" on him, then if you're the town player, it means you're so deep in his pocket you probably just live there now.
|
On March 11 2018 21:14 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2018 21:07 n00bKing wrote:On March 11 2018 20:47 rsoultin wrote:On March 11 2018 20:44 n00bKing wrote:On March 11 2018 20:35 rsoultin wrote:On March 11 2018 20:32 n00bKing wrote:On March 11 2018 20:19 Holyflare wrote:
It also DOES change my read on df. If DF is town then I fully believe mafia would think I'm healing him and waste their medic heal on him as a chance to get two night kills. If DF is a town medic then they think I'm also a town medic and instead of wasting their NK on DF for guaranteed medic kills they use their NK on AMG and try and get two kills in one since that's their only option.
If I did not say that I was healing df and he was a town medic then they nk him and we're down a medic for later in the game with no other nk info and we're still in the same mass claim situation with a mafia fake claiming. There's no way for you to know whether "they think you're also a town medic" in that scenario. But that doesn't even matter. There's nothing stopping them from just killing DF if that's what they want to do. "That's their only option?" No it's not. If DF is a true town medic, then even if they believe you are one too, but aren't sure whether you're telling the truth about healing him, they can just RB you and kill him anyway. There's no way for your fake claim to keep them from killing any player they want (including the revealed medic), and there was no way for their roles to keep US from killing whoever WE want. Two kills for the price of one is attractive, noob. It means a quicker end. I'd take that risk as scum. Lotta room between what you would choose to do, and saying "it was their only option." If DF is town and they wanted to make sure he died, they could have. But if HF is on that scum team, then making DF the night-kill undoes all of HF's work to get him lynched and hurts his credibility to boot. On March 11 2018 20:35 rsoultin wrote:
What makes it impossible for what hf is saying to be true? It isn't "impossible" or I would be saying he's dead-lock caught scum. But if you want to know why I don't believe him, you only need to go look at the case I posted against him again. Fair, I just don't think that quibbling over terminology is helpful. Either in clarifying a read or pushing your target. Which is perhaps hypocritical cause I have the same problem myself, just saying. Don't think this argument is going anywhere. Sometimes terminology matters, sometimes it doesn't. I've definitely seen scum before that would speak in "absolutes" that really weren't, and notice it as a pattern of those players' scum games. Holyflare isn't one of those players, so I don't know for sure. But it's at least something that town *ideally* would not do. And saying that scum could not have killed a town DF is as objectively false as when he tried to tell me that I moved off of Tubesock while he was the leading wagon. It's just not true, and it looks like "lazy scum" to me. (An investigative town player can at least read a damn vote count. Lazy scum may not bother.) Then he talks about Vivax being the first medic claim and me being the last, like as if there's anything remotely alignment-indicative about it. He's smarter than that, right? So why is it still getting posted? Looks like lazy scum to me. Where are his salient posts about why Koshi is scum, instead of just saying "he replaced in and posted mechanics. Cool. He's mafia." I'll say this much, though: If HF is scum, then you'll definitely be right that "this argument isn't going anywhere." This is the exact same argument you made for DF being town on d1 but now it makes me mafia. How do you pick and choose when lazy posts become alignment indicative?
Been explained already. I had no reason to expect better from him. I had no reason to think "he's smarter than this, right?" Once he touted himself as a strong town player, I admitted he probably should have been lynched D1 for being so far off his game. Are you far off your game, for being so anti-town in this game? If not, why do you act like you think people should ever listen to you?
|
It's also not "the exact same argument" or anything close to it. He repeated himself and repeated the opinions of other players. That's not the same as you saying things that are objectively false, and you presenting things as significant to your reads that are 100% NAI.
|
On March 11 2018 21:20 Holyflare wrote:
I also think claiming first is entirely relevant because mafia have to plan ahead for a fake claim and mass claims weren't certain they were happening. SO, yeah, I do put weight into that.
If I ever see you say this in a game where you're town, I'll be very, very surprised. Because trying to analyze the order of the claims in a mass claim is PURELY a Fool's Errand. And you didn't try to argue against it when I said essentially the same thing earlier.
|
On March 11 2018 21:25 rsoultin wrote:
Anyway the likelihood that even if I were 100% convinced hf is scum here we could get the medic vig shot on him is pretty damn low, so maybe the best bet really is to just hope I'm wrong on koshi since it looks like that's how this is going to go anyway.
DF said he was townreading the Damdred/Koshi slot, and his last post in the thread mentioned making HF the heal target. I guess we'll see what he says when he returns.
|
On March 11 2018 21:30 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2018 21:29 n00bKing wrote:On March 11 2018 21:25 rsoultin wrote:
Anyway the likelihood that even if I were 100% convinced hf is scum here we could get the medic vig shot on him is pretty damn low, so maybe the best bet really is to just hope I'm wrong on koshi since it looks like that's how this is going to go anyway. DF said he was townreading the Damdred/Koshi slot, and his last post in the thread mentioned making HF the heal target. I guess we'll see what he says when he returns. o.0 Did I miss that? I thought he was targeting slam?
He'd said earlier that he would be "fine" healing Slam. But his last post was about healing HF. So I don't know, like I say, we'll just see what he has to say.
|
On March 11 2018 21:30 Holyflare wrote:
It seems you're well into arguing semantics with me and about 0 reasons why I'm actually mafia.
Whether or not the order of claims in a mass claim is alignment indicative is not a discussion of semantics.
But don't worry, you can find a whole bunch of reasons why you're actually mafia on page 63. Big post, ya can't miss it.
|
On March 12 2018 03:00 Holyflare wrote:
Let us not forget the discrepancy between noobking saying df is a good day 1 lynch but then not even calling him mafia since then btw
That's not a discrepancy. If I had known that your meta read of him on Day 1 was correct, then yes, he would've been a good day 1 lynch. He nevertheless was not a good N1 kill, and he's not a good N2 kill. He was not a good day 2 lynch, and won't be a good day 3 lynch either, unless we kill the VT scum tonight and that flip points back to DF. I'm still watching him. I've been watching him the whole game, I'm watching all of the medic claims. But running around calling one of them mafia is not productive, when none of them are available as lynch targets, since the mass claim granted us a nearly failsafe path to victory via plowing through the VT claims (how many times does this need to be explained to you?) The flip of the VT scum will be very telling, and combined with observation of the medic claims, and how they've handled the VT pool, I expect to be able to identify the fake. What more could you ask for? (unless you're scum....then you could ask me to go after another medic, since a bad kill on a medic is HOW SCUM WINS THIS GAME)
|
On March 12 2018 05:04 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2018 05:01 Vivax wrote:
Why aren't df and noob in thread to coordinate? We're coordinating in the qt
+ Show Spoiler +I don't think we were supposed to tell them that
I think the most likely player to be the VT scum is HF. But we would need to convince FF or Vivax to come off of Koshi, in order to go against HF. Splitting the kills is not optimal strategy, accelerating the game only helps scum.
|
On March 12 2018 05:10 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2018 03:58 Holyflare wrote:
You guys should all heal a separate person in the non vt circle and that way a medic is confirmed each night possibly. I am having a difficult time trying to understand this
That's because it's nonsense. He can't seem to string together even 2 posts in a row that make sense from the mind of a Town player trying to win this game.
|
On March 12 2018 05:16 Holyflare wrote:
7v2 right now.
5 vt circle 4 medic circle. Each circle contains mafia.
All 4 medic circles heal all separate targets in the vt circle.
If 2 people die in a night that medic is now confirmed medic since mafia had to stack with them. If the 2 people that die are the medic and the person mafia stacked with we simultaneously narrow down the medic pool to 3 and the vt circle to 4. That's 5v2 with with another night of exactly the same. The next cycle if it all goes tits up either becomes 2 people in the vt circle or 2 people in the medic circle and 3 in the other. That leaves mylo at a 50/50 vt circle or a 50/50 medic circle.
And we do better than that by just following the original plan, huh? But you'd rather do something that improves the mafia's odds of winning the game. I WONDER WHY THAT MIGHT BE.
|
On March 12 2018 05:18 Vivax wrote:
I don't think anyone calling HF mafia has actually any idea of how he plays mafia.
He certainly wouldn't be as helpful as he is being right now.
In what world is he being helpful, Vivax?
|
On March 12 2018 05:21 Holyflare wrote:
Why is it nonsense really? Other than trying to be inflammatory and blindly repeating koshi game strategy rhetoric why is it bad to narrow down and confirm medics or make the game a 50/50?
There's nothing "blind" about repeating koshi's game strategy rhetoric. That "rhetoric" is simply the reality. That "rhetoric" is why it was correct to mass claim, and now you're trying to discard what we gained FROM that mass claim. Why would a town player do that?
|
On March 12 2018 05:23 Holyflare wrote:
The original plan by koshi literally states "and if it's all wrong you end up at a 50/50" so why is it different?
Because his plan doesn't rely on mafia cooperation like yours does. lol In your plan, what keeps the mafia from simply killing someone they didn't think they could get mislynched anyway, and not using the mafia medic? you've forfeited the vig shot, when following the original plan gave us 4 chances to find the VT scum. How is the original plan not better than yours?
|
On March 12 2018 05:26 Holyflare wrote:
You can even do this so you can stop being shit.
Vivax heals Holyflare.
Noobking heals slam.
Df heals moosy.
Ff heals koshi.
That way if mafia want to eliminate a vt by stacking they eliminate one of your question marks and save your town reads. Are you saying that's bad for tonight? Are you saying you'd rather chance a shot on a random guy instead of forcing mafia to play their hand?
And if they just kill rsoul, wtf have you accomplished? You canceled the ability of all our medics and turned them into vanillas, who stand around and watch mafia perform the night kill. Nice job. Your idea is nonsense. Just stop.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
