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On February 09 2017 07:02 RtaniSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 06:53 Grackaroni wrote:On February 09 2017 06:37 RtaniSoul wrote:On February 09 2017 06:31 Grackaroni wrote:On February 09 2017 06:22 RtaniSoul wrote:On February 09 2017 06:20 Grackaroni wrote:
I'll also say that it's getting weird for me to continue arguing over this theory because the longer I argue the more I'm starting to believe that the scum is just Silverika being cranky. okay now i just want you to tell me that i'm right ^^ it's mean to say you don't agree with my logic but at the same time seem to accept it by suspecting silver if you don't think what i'm saying makes sense, why do you think it's silver now? Because you can't understand the theory! If the theory is true then it shouldn't be such a chore to walk you through it. Again, the whole point of it was that I was trying to think of why the mission may have passed if I was to trust my reads on Silver & Sharkie. A pairing of you/Vivax made a lot of sense to me. I'm just trying to make sense of the missions. And I think the people that should be most suspect are the people who didn't seem to put much thought into passing the last two missions despite the strangeness of votes and the thread atmosphere. I believe that would be you/Vivax/Silver/TW/SL >> -flicks- no, see that's not how this works. you say, rsoul, you're brilliant, your logic is amazing (cause it is!) and you have shown me the light! i now realize how stupid i was to even suggest this possibility of scum yoloing based off silliness ego-stroking is very good for an rsoul. saying he's reevaluating because she's too stupid to grasp his theory is very rude. exceedingly rude. (first off, i do grasp it just fine, just don't see it as valid even if i didn't already know it was wrong lol ><) and second off lying to be nice is a thing THE RSOUL ISN'T STUPID -beats with an overripe banana Haha. I don't think you understand what I was trying to say but what I was trying to say probably isn't right anyway, so I guess we can argue over which one of us is stupid. Here's the bullet points: * Silver/Sharkie seem really likely town * Therefore, Vivax must be scum * But then the votes for the first mission wouldn't make sense * Unless the team was both Vivax & Artanisoul, in which case it could be perfectly viable for scum to approve. The reason I'm changing my mind isn't because I think for Vivax to be scum one of Silver/Sharkie also must be scum. If Silver is scum then I think Vivax is a less likely partner than quite a few other people. -squints at- you still haven't corrected my logic at all, because my logic is infallible! unassailable! would require an insane vivax of craziness! (yes i am still trying to get someone to show me how i'm wrong; no dice so far. must mean i'm right  ) more to the point, you reevaluating based not on my unassailable logic but rather on the shoddy logic that my not following your theory 'invalidates' it is kinda poor. if spies don't have a qt, i don't have to understand what vivax is doing for us to be spies together. that's a pretty strange reason to drop the theory entirely
this still seems like a bad reason to suddenly shift to silver, setting aside the fact that understanding what you're saying on the vivax theory doesn't necessitate agreeing with it ^^
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On February 09 2017 07:06 Grackaroni wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 07:02 RtaniSoul wrote:On February 09 2017 06:53 Grackaroni wrote:On February 09 2017 06:37 RtaniSoul wrote:On February 09 2017 06:31 Grackaroni wrote:On February 09 2017 06:22 RtaniSoul wrote:On February 09 2017 06:20 Grackaroni wrote:
I'll also say that it's getting weird for me to continue arguing over this theory because the longer I argue the more I'm starting to believe that the scum is just Silverika being cranky. okay now i just want you to tell me that i'm right ^^ it's mean to say you don't agree with my logic but at the same time seem to accept it by suspecting silver if you don't think what i'm saying makes sense, why do you think it's silver now? Because you can't understand the theory! If the theory is true then it shouldn't be such a chore to walk you through it. Again, the whole point of it was that I was trying to think of why the mission may have passed if I was to trust my reads on Silver & Sharkie. A pairing of you/Vivax made a lot of sense to me. I'm just trying to make sense of the missions. And I think the people that should be most suspect are the people who didn't seem to put much thought into passing the last two missions despite the strangeness of votes and the thread atmosphere. I believe that would be you/Vivax/Silver/TW/SL >> -flicks- no, see that's not how this works. you say, rsoul, you're brilliant, your logic is amazing (cause it is!) and you have shown me the light! i now realize how stupid i was to even suggest this possibility of scum yoloing based off silliness ego-stroking is very good for an rsoul. saying he's reevaluating because she's too stupid to grasp his theory is very rude. exceedingly rude. (first off, i do grasp it just fine, just don't see it as valid even if i didn't already know it was wrong lol ><) and second off lying to be nice is a thing THE RSOUL ISN'T STUPID -beats with an overripe banana Haha. I don't think you understand what I was trying to say but what I was trying to say probably isn't right anyway, so I guess we can argue over which one of us is stupid. Here's the bullet points: * Silver/Sharkie seem really likely town * Therefore, Vivax must be scum * But then the votes for the first mission wouldn't make sense * Unless the team was both Vivax & Artanisoul, in which case it could be perfectly viable for scum to approve. The reason I'm changing my mind isn't because I think for Vivax to be scum one of Silver/Sharkie also must be scum. If Silver is scum then I think Vivax is a less likely partner than quite a few other people. -squints at- you still haven't corrected my logic at all, because my logic is infallible! unassailable! would require an insane vivax of craziness! (yes i am still trying to get someone to show me how i'm wrong; no dice so far. must mean i'm right ) more to the point, you reevaluating based not on my unassailable logic but rather on the shoddy logic that my not following your theory 'invalidates' it is kinda poor. if spies don't have a qt, i don't have to understand what vivax is doing for us to be spies together. that's a pretty strange reason to drop the theory entirely Hey quit squinting at me. It's unnerving. I think Artanis understood what I was saying. Maybe try talking to him about it instead.
What I understood was that if you had the knowledge of a spy voting for an all-resistance team, the follow-up having a likely spy on there makes sense. However, that does not mean that the act of a spy putting up an all-resistance team is likely to begin with, especially when considering all the other silly stuff Vivax done like 'threaten' to put us up instead of sharkie and all that jazz.
If Vivax is mafia with me, why was he intent on swapping us in for sharkie rather than himself?
If I'm mafia with Vivax, why do I instantly townread you after you flip your read on Vivax, then proceed to re-eval and, without Vivax having posted much, do a bunch of analysis after which I scumread you?
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Also, if you seriously still scumread us after you've calmed down about being the hunted rabbit all of a sudden, I find it exceedingly unlikely that it's possible that you're town. I know how narcissistic this sounds but it's really hard for me to believe that you can honestly believe with the amount of effort we've put in the game and the unlikely hoops and analysis we've thrown out, having a longer filter than Superbia whilst not having 90% one liners, and the fluidity of our reads, I really have no option other than to believe your reads aren't genuine.
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On February 09 2017 07:22 RtaniSoul wrote:
Also, if you seriously still scumread us after you've calmed down about being the hunted rabbit all of a sudden, I find it exceedingly unlikely that it's possible that you're town. I know how narcissistic this sounds but it's really hard for me to believe that you can honestly believe with the amount of effort we've put in the game and the unlikely hoops and analysis we've thrown out, having a longer filter than Superbia whilst not having 90% one liners, and the fluidity of our reads, I really have no option other than to believe your reads aren't genuine.
>> this is why i think you should join me in semi-retirement lol >< let scumreads get to you too much
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On February 09 2017 07:37 Grackaroni wrote:
If you look through the entirety of my filter I think my accusation has been reasonable. Especially the post I made where you point out something that I did that's unlikely to come from mafia and argue that it therefore must come from mafia, and then you point out something Vivax did that's unlikely to come from mafia and argue that it precludes him from being mafia.
There's also just the randomness of Vivax's accusation against you during day 1, which goes along with what I said to Sicklucker. And I'm not sure why you're calling me out for not calling you town while saying that Vivax is town because he wouldn't be calling you scum as mafia.
But anyway. . .
I would like to see some Silverika games.
The difference between you and Vivax is that Vivax calls me mafia literally every single game except when I'm mafia.
As for the 'unlikely to come from mafia and therefore it must come from mafia', it was more related to the fact that those actions have defined most people's reasons for townreading you including my own. It was more explaining how they can make sense from scum which felt like a more reasonable explanation than I could think of for any of the other people on the mission.
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Basically if I didn't know there was scum between you/sharkie/silver/vivax I'd probably be townreading you right now.
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On February 09 2017 07:50 Grackaroni wrote:
And for a final explanation, I'm saying this:
1) Silver/Sharkie seem really likely town
2) Therefore, Vivax must be scum
3) But then the votes for the first mission wouldn't make sense
4) Unless the team was both Vivax & Artanisoul, in which case it could be perfectly viable for scum to approve.
1 implies 2.
2 implies 3.
3 implies 4.
Now, by the time I get to 4 I think it's reasonable to say that maybe I should just reconsider 1, which is what I'm doing now.
You guys are saying that I should think be thinking that Vivax is on a team with Sharkie/Silver. That's possible but it isn't where my logic for Vivax being scum came from in the first place. If I'm considering one of Sharkie/Silver scum (Silver) then I would just re-evaluate my Vivax read entirely.
fair (maybe might have already said this in my very first post about your theory and i still want to be called amazing and smart and awesome >>)
also i just want to say: pffffffffftttt
^^ cause it's fun
and yeah, different people are held to different standards. the other wearying part of mafia @.@
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On February 09 2017 07:59 Grackaroni wrote:
And I still don't quite get the distinction.
There are plenty of people (you) saying that Vivax wouldn't have chosen not to put himself on the mission as scum. So there isn't much reason to treat the two "unlikely for scum to do" things differently.
180ing on a read is something different than letting town decide on the fate of several missions. As for passing the first mission, that's fairly normal. Scum tends to pass the first mission; it's the fact that Sharkie was contested that people believe it's a valid argument to make. The reasons for the actions you'd have taken as a spy are more clear than Vivax, and I don't see Vivax as a flashy scum player. Especially the threatening to put us on the mission instead of Sharkie seems like something that doesn't click with me on that.
Do you still believe we're mafia?
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On February 09 2017 19:29 sharkie wrote:
Also my main point of all the things I posted is not defending Grack as resistance. It is that no one considers vivax a spy at all. I can understand that you don't want to believe in a good Grack anymore but how does that make vivax automatically a resistance player?!
And don't come to me with crap about how his past play proves that he is not that kind of player. Or how he has played makes no sense of spy play. WELL HELLO THERE neither does Grack's play.
But Grack is an obvious spy -> Vivax is not?!
-pokes- it's PoE, sharkie. it's not grack MUST be spy, vivax CAN'T be spy...it's what is more likely. for us, we have a hard time by your play seeing you or silver as spies
grack switching a read is not nearly as game-throwing if he's a spy as vivax putting up an all-town team would be. but really what lex said earlier i agree with...if there didn't HAVE to be at least one spy in you four, we might suspect one of either grack or vivax (or both) could potentially be fooling us, but they'd probably both end up out of our bottom three. it's the fact that at least one spy is amongst you four that has us looking at all of you
(lex wants to add that we've had a lot of experience with vivax, and from that experience flashy scum play is not really his thing, however i realize that you don't want to hear about past experience with vivax. i get that; when i was new the most annoying thing people did was pull the 'meta' card)
if we consider vivax and grack's play to be about equally townie (which lex and i at least do, although tonally vivax's arrogance taking potshots at us when he thought he 'figured out' the game gives him a bit of an edge there) then objectively changing one read is less potentially damaging to achieving spy objectives then rolling the dice and assuming town will add a spy to the 'all-town' team. given we know we're town, this is even more true for us than maybe for some of you
for us, if vivax is scum, one of the three is way more likely to be scum, so by poe we arrive at grack. even if we say vivax did get a scum on the first team and is scum himself, we still have to find the scum in you three. you and silver are the ones we're most confident on, and we're not sure grack/vivax makes sense as a team, so...yeah back at grack
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sharkie, level with me, is your biggest issue with people suspecting grack that you think too many people are?
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On February 09 2017 20:34 Vivax wrote:
Well RtaniSoul gets an easy townread now.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hugMG8P.gif)
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Grack, I'd like for you to delve into Silverika as you said you would. If you're town and want to clear your name, that's the best way to go about it. Find out who the scummer is in your group.
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On February 09 2017 22:34 sharkie wrote:What is PoE and bussing? Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 19:57 RtaniSoul wrote:
sharkie, level with me, is your biggest issue with people suspecting grack that you think too many people are? No, it's that vivax is getting a free pass. Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 20:03 Silverika wrote:
Sharkie let me try this approach as well: you think both can be scum yes?
How about you show a logical conclusion on why it must be the case and explain why scum!vivax would cast shade on his teammate scum!grack
Cus the point that's gonna be argued is that they are playing in a suboptimal format by doing so are they not? I don't think both of them spies. That's way too deep of a level. That is like considering that you are a spy. Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 20:34 Vivax wrote:
Well RtaniSoul gets an easy townread now.
I don't even know what all the fuss is about me sharkie is making, I asked him a clear question: Which team do you think would succeed, and since he's so convinced Grack is not mafia, would he still think that if the team failed without me on it and for example rtanisoul instead?
Right now he's just flailing at me getting TR and grack scumread. What point is there, where does he want to lead? Just don't add me on the team then or don't approve teams with me on it, I'm perfectly fine not being on a team as long as I think it will succeed. But with what you're doing you aren't providing solutions. No, I don't think the team had failed if we had rtanisoul on it. But then we would probably also have gotten more nayvotes (including yours). But I can't prove anything.
PoE is Process of Elimination. And trust me, we haven't given Vivax a free pass. You mentioned people can change their play and I agree that there's a few things that people can change, but a lot of things are things people do subconsciously or just really don't fit into their personality and would never come up with. I believe I'm familiar enough with Vivax that this is the case for him. We also really don't see a situation in which Vivax is a spy without one of you/silver/grack being a spy simply because the risk of losing outright after that if silver decides to put me on the mission next, which given his reads was a very likely option.
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his=theirs* sorry silverika I keep doing this >>
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We're also pretty likely to nayvote this mission, not because we don't like the people on it (it might be our 2nd or 3rd preferred mission) but because we have the luxury of being the last option here, and if we're right we outright win the game. It's also crucial that if we're wrong on who is scum on the second mission, we find out now rather than later. SL is too much of a wildcard in that regard.
We would like a RtaniSoul/Sharkie/Silverika/Vivax mission at this point in time.
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On February 09 2017 22:57 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 22:42 RtaniSoul wrote:On February 09 2017 22:34 sharkie wrote:What is PoE and bussing? On February 09 2017 19:57 RtaniSoul wrote:
sharkie, level with me, is your biggest issue with people suspecting grack that you think too many people are? No, it's that vivax is getting a free pass. On February 09 2017 20:03 Silverika wrote:
Sharkie let me try this approach as well: you think both can be scum yes?
How about you show a logical conclusion on why it must be the case and explain why scum!vivax would cast shade on his teammate scum!grack
Cus the point that's gonna be argued is that they are playing in a suboptimal format by doing so are they not? I don't think both of them spies. That's way too deep of a level. That is like considering that you are a spy. On February 09 2017 20:34 Vivax wrote:
Well RtaniSoul gets an easy townread now.
I don't even know what all the fuss is about me sharkie is making, I asked him a clear question: Which team do you think would succeed, and since he's so convinced Grack is not mafia, would he still think that if the team failed without me on it and for example rtanisoul instead?
Right now he's just flailing at me getting TR and grack scumread. What point is there, where does he want to lead? Just don't add me on the team then or don't approve teams with me on it, I'm perfectly fine not being on a team as long as I think it will succeed. But with what you're doing you aren't providing solutions. No, I don't think the team had failed if we had rtanisoul on it. But then we would probably also have gotten more nayvotes (including yours). But I can't prove anything. PoE is Process of Elimination. And trust me, we haven't given Vivax a free pass. You mentioned people can change their play and I agree that there's a few things that people can change, but a lot of things are things people do subconsciously or just really don't fit into their personality and would never come up with. I believe I'm familiar enough with Vivax that this is the case for him. We also really don't see a situation in which Vivax is a spy without one of you/silver/grack being a spy simply because the risk of losing outright after that if silver decides to put me on the mission next, which given his reads was a very likely option. In the end silver and you don't believe vivax is the spy because he is not the type of player to make such risky play isn't that true? Obviously, it is not the only reason but it is a big reason. As a neutral player I do not have this prejudice, do you understand how for me this can be a very likely possibility? (And silver did not put you in the team though. In fact it was never in discussion because I had suggested it but both vivax and silver declined my suggestion and then started to bombard us with spy accusations.)
On one hand, I do understand. On the other, I feel like Vivax has made a bunch of plays much less likely to come from a spy than Grack has. Mainly the not putting himself on a mission (you mention he said he wouldn't from the start, my argument would be why would he bring it up to begin with? Plus you can backtrack on your words anyway like Grack has regarding not mentioning what he'd vote for) and the whole play with switching me in for you when he was widely townread that didn't make much sense.
As for silver not putting me on the mission: At the time when Vivax made the nomination, it was impossible for him to know that. It would be a very big gamble if he were mafia. I don't think these suspicions were loud enough at the time Vivax nominated his mission that he could be reasonably certain he'd be picked for the next mission instead of us but I could be misremembering.
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On February 09 2017 23:09 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2017 23:00 RtaniSoul wrote:On February 09 2017 22:57 sharkie wrote:On February 09 2017 22:42 RtaniSoul wrote:On February 09 2017 22:34 sharkie wrote:What is PoE and bussing? On February 09 2017 19:57 RtaniSoul wrote:
sharkie, level with me, is your biggest issue with people suspecting grack that you think too many people are? No, it's that vivax is getting a free pass. On February 09 2017 20:03 Silverika wrote:
Sharkie let me try this approach as well: you think both can be scum yes?
How about you show a logical conclusion on why it must be the case and explain why scum!vivax would cast shade on his teammate scum!grack
Cus the point that's gonna be argued is that they are playing in a suboptimal format by doing so are they not? I don't think both of them spies. That's way too deep of a level. That is like considering that you are a spy. On February 09 2017 20:34 Vivax wrote:
Well RtaniSoul gets an easy townread now.
I don't even know what all the fuss is about me sharkie is making, I asked him a clear question: Which team do you think would succeed, and since he's so convinced Grack is not mafia, would he still think that if the team failed without me on it and for example rtanisoul instead?
Right now he's just flailing at me getting TR and grack scumread. What point is there, where does he want to lead? Just don't add me on the team then or don't approve teams with me on it, I'm perfectly fine not being on a team as long as I think it will succeed. But with what you're doing you aren't providing solutions. No, I don't think the team had failed if we had rtanisoul on it. But then we would probably also have gotten more nayvotes (including yours). But I can't prove anything. PoE is Process of Elimination. And trust me, we haven't given Vivax a free pass. You mentioned people can change their play and I agree that there's a few things that people can change, but a lot of things are things people do subconsciously or just really don't fit into their personality and would never come up with. I believe I'm familiar enough with Vivax that this is the case for him. We also really don't see a situation in which Vivax is a spy without one of you/silver/grack being a spy simply because the risk of losing outright after that if silver decides to put me on the mission next, which given his reads was a very likely option. In the end silver and you don't believe vivax is the spy because he is not the type of player to make such risky play isn't that true? Obviously, it is not the only reason but it is a big reason. As a neutral player I do not have this prejudice, do you understand how for me this can be a very likely possibility? (And silver did not put you in the team though. In fact it was never in discussion because I had suggested it but both vivax and silver declined my suggestion and then started to bombard us with spy accusations.) On one hand, I do understand. On the other, I feel like Vivax has made a bunch of plays much less likely to come from a spy than Grack has. Mainly the not putting himself on a mission (you mention he said he wouldn't from the start, my argument would be why would he bring it up to begin with? Plus you can backtrack on your words anyway like Grack has regarding not mentioning what he'd vote for) and the whole play with switching me in for you when he was widely townread that didn't make much sense. As for silver not putting me on the mission: At the time when Vivax made the nomination, it was impossible for him to know that. It would be a very big gamble if he were mafia. I don't think these suspicions were loud enough at the time Vivax nominated his mission that he could be reasonably certain he'd be picked for the next mission instead of us but I could be misremembering. So your answer is practically yes but you don't want to admit it. XD
It's just the most obvious example. There's a lot of tonal things in there too like the mentioned smugness when he believed he 'caught' the two of us that I've never seen scum Vivax do. It's an easy thing to emulate, sure, but only if you actually think of it. I also don't think I've ever brought it up as a reason to townread him before so it should be valid as he isn't aware it's a towntell until now 
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On February 09 2017 23:14 sharkie wrote:
Since I am running out of people to add in the team, currently if I had to nominate a team I'd propose: RtaniSoul/Sharkie/Silverika/Super
I cannot add vivax as he is my prime suspect and if I add Grack the team won't happen anyway. And out of all lazy players super seems the most likely candidate for resistance I guess?
How certain are you that Vivax is the spy over Grack?
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Silver, what do you believe his spy motivation for that is? Both Vivax and Grack are pretty spy-read by different players, meaning he'd be in a much better position not picking a needless fight with you.
From where I'm sitting, the most likely motivation is stubbornness with a healthy dosis of righteousness, which I'd generally see as resistance traits.
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I do however understand your frustration.
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EPT
