EPT[M][N] Presidential Election Mini Mafia
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Jealous
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Jealous
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On June 17 2016 22:49 emperorchampion wrote: screw it \in this theme is waaaay too awesome to turn down Aw shit | ||
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Jealous
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On June 20 2016 07:31 QuickTwist wrote: And if you could give me 1-shot Vig, that would be a bonus. oh no | ||
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Jealous
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On June 21 2016 03:21 QuickTwist wrote: I won't be playing the same this game as last, so don't try getting a meta read on me based on one game. But yes, I am not bad with a gun. Haha I was jokingly insinuating you'd gun me D1 in the name of justice xD @Rels: I would be down to have a coach! Blazinghand helped me tons in the last game. | ||
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Jealous
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Lol... I have the suspicion that you're only reading the surface. | ||
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On June 22 2016 07:11 Shapelog wrote: Author's notes: The following game will use flavoring that is based around Trump vs Clinton/politics. Do note, that I am not only independent (which means jackshit tbh), but I will also be most likely making fun and poking at the two individuals. I might even expand out of the 2, depending on how the game plays. If this bothers you, please let me or Rels know. Also do note, that if I cast someone as Donald trump, that does not automatically make them mafia. None of the flavoring will have clues. Oh god x_x As if there isn't too much of this around me as it is. Oh well, fuck um. Might as well become a politician and aim for true justice! | ||
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 Let's work together, make our own political party, etc. | ||
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On June 23 2016 05:47 MoosyDoosy wrote: no promises that i'll be able to play a sane game like last time Edit: Rels, you also misspelled Jealous in the OP for player sign ups although the hyperlink is correct. I was actually down with the misspelling! Jaelous? Jaedong?? ;D | ||
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Jealous
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On June 23 2016 11:28 MoosyDoosy wrote: ...Shapelog, do you have a gif handy? + Show Spoiler + jk don't do it + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + I actually kinda do want one + Show Spoiler [Risky click of the day] + ![[image loading]](http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Bob-Office-Space-Licking-Upper-Lip.gif) | ||
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Jealous
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On June 25 2016 22:28 Superbia wrote: Oh jealous claimed to be drunk/whatever but that's no real excuse not to post. Especially as town. Alright I'm going to give a breakdown of my timeline so that people understand where I'm coming from more in detail I'll do the best I can because I'm still burnt out right now. I know I'm not allowed to share the specific time I got my role PM but I think it should be fine if I mention that I got my role during like a 10 hour period? That should cover all roles and therefore not be violating the rules that state that revealing the time will allow others to surmise what role I have (this is going off of the rules from the Newbie Mafia, I am going to assume that the rules in the second post have a very similar or identical clause). Jun 22 Eastern Time: 1551 Receive PM stating that the game will start on Thur Jun 23. This is perfect because I have Thur Jun 23 free. Jun 23 Eastern Time: Someone at some point pulls out and game is put on hold. I am sadness. Don't know when game will start. Tomorrow is a busy day and so is Saturday. Jun 24 Eastern Time: 0400 Go to sleep 0700 Wake up 0715 Stop hitting snooze alarm 0800 Get on bus to college campus 0820 Realize I am on the wrong bus 0830 Get off at stop and transfer to a different bus 0835 Get on transfer bus 0855 Arrive at college campus 0905 Get on bus to go on "field trip" - exploring a mine that is 1 hour away from the campus that has the world's largest collection of phosphorescent stones! 89 different kinds in a 3 mile radius. Very cool. Our tour guide was super cute. I gave her a chocolate and got a hug. Feel like a boss. 1430 Arrive at college campus 1515 Take bus back home 1600 Arrive at home 1605 Friend comes to my house 1610 Substance consumption begins. 1610 - Jun 25 0400 - Substances, soccer, videogames, music, friends, good times. Check TL at some point during these hours and find out to my horror game has started. Check my role, post apology in thread. Jun 25 Eastern time: 1100 Wake up 1105 Check TL with morning cigarette 1110 Decide the need to make this post to clarify my current situation 1130 Right now From here on out: 1130 - 1300 Clean room/house from last night debauchery 1300 - ~Jun 26 0400 People will be arriving, there will be a videogame tournament in my room, there will be alcohol, will not be substances that affect perception of reality for long periods of time. ~Jun 26 0400 I will begin to trudge through this thread in a drunken stupor and try to come up with anything that isn't retarded. Sorry fam. | ||
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Jealous
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Jealous
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1. No one will vote for me 2. This will prevent me from unintentionally voting for a scum president simply because I am not caught up with the game If I find time to catch up and change my vote to a more appropriate candidate before the end of Day 1, I will do so. | ||
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Jealous
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On June 26 2016 00:48 MoosyDoosy wrote: I still want to see what Jealous thinks of QT and Artanis when he's done with this mooseshrooms From what little I've seen (pages like 18-here) it seems eerily similar to the Town vs. Town fight I had with QT, but the roles are somewhat reversed - QT is pressuring Artanis in a similar fashion to what I did to him D1 in the last game. Artanis is playing the QT role and QT is judging him based on how well he plays the same scenario he was in. QT finds Artanis' defense to be insufficient and jumps on the dodgy exeunt that an exasperated Artanis made. I missed the beginnings of the fight but having read back multiple spoiler quotes it seems like a bad Town vs. Town right now. QT does seem a little overeager but it's hard to say from what I've seen that he is definitely scum. Might be Blue PR like I was last game doing the same thing to him, but would that be too transparent? Is that the facade he is pushing? I will look into it more when I can. | ||
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On June 26 2016 00:36 Tictock wrote: This definitely sounds like something along the lines of shrooms or acid. The rest of that post kinda sounded like BS, but I'm never gunna read it all so I'll never know. Strong read but I refrain from confirming or denying any particulars on the internet. | ||
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Jealous
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On June 27 2016 00:08 Jean Valjean wrote: I actually kind of agree, he was specifically asked that and conjured up an answer that was surprisingly thought out given the fact that everything else in his filter has basically been him excusing himself from playing. Not necessarily the TMI part, but rather just the appearance of it. Maybe the trick just to ask him... Hey Jealous, what do you think of my spat with Artanis? And explain your thoughts on Tictock. I was already typing this out as I was working through the thread, so I will use this as an answer: Having read the past few pages that were largely Jean Vanjean pushing Artanis, playing petty games and platforming for presidency, I have to say that he has left a foul taste in my mouth. While I respect his use of language and mild tone, I have to say that he is trying too hard to push the notion that he is "smart" and that therefore the best choice for mayor. Scum can be smart too, and I think a smart scum would follow along the same lines that Jean is doing: 1. Lay relatively low at first and not draw much suspicion in either direction while the thread is in a tumultuous Day 1 state, Artanis fighting QT, lots of speculation going in every direction, etc. 2. a. Push a target that is already under pressure/suspicion from others using vague meta reads (paraphrasing what Artanis said, "If I had a dollar for every time someone scumread me for playing worse than they expect me to,"). b. Play word/mind games (and perhaps a little bit of fear tactics) to force that target to say things that Jean wants said from another mouth, giving him added external validity. "This is not incorrect, as mafia can never lynch me. My greatest strength in mafia is that I can beat people into submission with arguments and words." - Jean c. Essentially bullying him into voting for him as president. 3. Build a stronger platform for a presidential candidacy than any that has been posted so far, using big words and nice formatting to please the eye and make the reader complacently agree with the validity of his statements, in what could be considered a "last push" because of the timing (12 hours before EoD as opposed to any time prior). I find the fact that he has garnered a fair share of support and relatively little suspicion to be very alarming. Is everyone going for the textbook "he is active and pushing someone, so can't be scum?" I believe that can backfire terribly in a game such as this where that modus operandi would be an effective strategy for Mafia to get into a position of power and make the game much harder for Town to win. There have been four people whose names have been tossed around/who have been voted for/have pushed for presidency, from what I've read so far (I still have to go back to the early pages). In most recent pages, GlowingBear has been making some weak pushes for it, going by the logic of "Why SHOULDN'T I be President?" as opposed to "Here is why I SHOULD be President," which I don't like either. In short, I think that between those people (Superbia, Jean, GB, and one other person I am forgetting at the moment) there must be a scum. It is THE play of the game in this format, and for scum to sit back and allow Town to freely elect Town for both positions would be simply poor play. I find that to be less likely than scum being one of the power candidates right now. | ||
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Jealous
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Pretty weak play so far. Has only posted one or two substantiated reads. This quote from him sums it up: "like, there's playing the game, and then there's trying to solve the game. most of us are just playing the game right now..." Don't like him so far, but not enough to say he's scum. GlowingBear: + Show Spoiler + Some decent posts questioning people. A lot of fluff otherwise. Asking to be mayor over and over without giving any reasoning as to why he should be one. Somehow has garnered a lot of support despite not being wholly convincing to me. Only one real good post explaining his reads. If he wasn't pushing so hard to be mayor without any real foundation, I would townlean on him. Jealous: + Show Spoiler + I'm VT. emperorchampion: + Show Spoiler + Very weak start to the game but made a goost post @Jean, which I liked. Overall I'm not very impressed with his play so far, but he hasn't said anything that seemed outright scummy, so I have him as null for now. Damdred: + Show Spoiler + Weak reads, hasn't contributed much of anything at all. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/510385-presidential-election-mini-mafia?page=23#459 This post is suspect because he gets on the defensive while saying that there is "no real reason" for him being scumpushed, but has done nothing in the game up to that point, which to me is reason enough. Later on he gets pressured more, and again says there is no reason to scumread him even though yet again he hasn't contribute much of anything. Gives detailed reads under pressure and they do not impress. Does reads based on "tone" and stuff like that. Tries to jump on me for a policy lynch, then posts this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/510385-presidential-election-mini-mafia?page=41#807 Trying to be objective about it, I think is a horrible post. I answered a question directly to the best of my ability and he disqualifies it because I have no experience playing with Artanis? Also uses this as an opportunity to further support his QT town read that he has been pushing from the start. A few posts later, he is convinced that I am scum and not just inactive as I said I would be, all based off of one post. Although, apparently moves me to "lower null" just a few minutes ago. Makes a late push for pardoner? On what basis? -_- Definite scum lean. MoosyDoosy: + Show Spoiler + Super trolly as always, which I hate that he can get away with every game (according to what some veterans have said so far). Impossible to read and thus not a benefit to town so far. Chezinu: + Show Spoiler + Has contributed the least of all besides MoosyDoosy. Hard to read off of that, but necessitates a mild scum lean from me. Artanis[Xp]: + Show Spoiler + A few jokey posts at the start of the game, with some weak/fake reads. I don't personally like that style of play but I wouldn't send him to the gallows for it (if I were to do so, Moosy would go first). I can actually understand his push on QT, as QT himself said he plays "oddly" and that seems to get him into trouble D1. I wish QT would play less "odd." It wouldn't cause situations like this one. QT's case was pretty weak in my opinion but because he isn't the type to let it go, Artanis was forced into a defensive position (seems like he doesn't like giving up either, even though he eventually did). Overall I'd have to say Artanis reacted pretty normally to the situation. After that, I feel that he has been active and trying to push the game forward, albeit using too much meta, history, and "tone" for my liking. His play vs. Jean and @TT, I can't entirely agree with, but he's trying. He's town to me. More to come. | ||
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Jealous
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On June 27 2016 05:08 Damdred wrote: God the more I read the jealous post the more I hate it. The gb read doesn't make sense at all, it sounds like a scum read for lack of activity no real contribution to the game. But town leans him anyway. God that's craxy "If he wasn't pushing so hard to be mayor without any real foundation, I would townlean on him." Reading comprehension please. | ||
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Jealous
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On June 27 2016 05:19 Superbia wrote: Jealous that felt forced. Like you didn't want to give your reads because you believe in them or you want to pursue them. But it feels like you're giving them to seem town. I'm trying to do my due diligence. This is just as much for myself to organize my thoughts as I read every filter of the 40+ hours I missed so I can get get ready to analyze consequent actions with some foundation, as it is to show others that I am back from being inactive and am ready to contribute my reads to the town. I can see how this can be construed as "trying to seem town," but given how there was a push to policy lynch me I think it is more of "trying to be active and a part of the game and stimulate discussion." | ||
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On June 27 2016 04:59 Jealous wrote: Tumblewood: + Show Spoiler + Pretty weak play so far. Has only posted one or two substantiated reads. This quote from him sums it up: "like, there's playing the game, and then there's trying to solve the game. most of us are just playing the game right now..." Don't like him so far, but not enough to say he's scum. GlowingBear: + Show Spoiler + Some decent posts questioning people. A lot of fluff otherwise. Asking to be mayor over and over without giving any reasoning as to why he should be one. Somehow has garnered a lot of support despite not being wholly convincing to me. Only one real good post explaining his reads. If he wasn't pushing so hard to be mayor without any real foundation, I would townlean on him. Jealous: + Show Spoiler + I'm VT. emperorchampion: + Show Spoiler + Very weak start to the game but made a goost post @Jean, which I liked. Overall I'm not very impressed with his play so far, but he hasn't said anything that seemed outright scummy, so I have him as null for now. Damdred: + Show Spoiler + Weak reads, hasn't contributed much of anything at all. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/510385-presidential-election-mini-mafia?page=23#459 This post is suspect because he gets on the defensive while saying that there is "no real reason" for him being scumpushed, but has done nothing in the game up to that point, which to me is reason enough. Later on he gets pressured more, and again says there is no reason to scumread him even though yet again he hasn't contribute much of anything. Gives detailed reads under pressure and they do not impress. Does reads based on "tone" and stuff like that. Tries to jump on me for a policy lynch, then posts this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/510385-presidential-election-mini-mafia?page=41#807 Trying to be objective about it, I think is a horrible post. I answered a question directly to the best of my ability and he disqualifies it because I have no experience playing with Artanis? Also uses this as an opportunity to further support his QT town read that he has been pushing from the start. A few posts later, he is convinced that I am scum and not just inactive as I said I would be, all based off of one post. Although, apparently moves me to "lower null" just a few minutes ago. Makes a late push for pardoner? On what basis? -_- Definite scum lean. MoosyDoosy: + Show Spoiler + Super trolly as always, which I hate that he can get away with every game (according to what some veterans have said so far). Impossible to read and thus not a benefit to town so far. Chezinu: + Show Spoiler + Has contributed the least of all besides MoosyDoosy. Hard to read off of that, but necessitates a mild scum lean from me. Artanis[Xp]: + Show Spoiler + A few jokey posts at the start of the game, with some weak/fake reads. I don't personally like that style of play but I wouldn't send him to the gallows for it (if I were to do so, Moosy would go first). I can actually understand his push on QT, as QT himself said he plays "oddly" and that seems to get him into trouble D1. I wish QT would play less "odd." It wouldn't cause situations like this one. QT's case was pretty weak in my opinion but because he isn't the type to let it go, Artanis was forced into a defensive position (seems like he doesn't like giving up either, even though he eventually did). Overall I'd have to say Artanis reacted pretty normally to the situation. After that, I feel that he has been active and trying to push the game forward, albeit using too much meta, history, and "tone" for my liking. His play vs. Jean and @TT, I can't entirely agree with, but he's trying. He's town to me. More to come. QuickTwist: + Show Spoiler + I like that he has a serious approach to the game, but I also feel this results in him being somewhat obtuse in the early game of D1. Probably still acclimating to TL. It might be harder to do so as a player from another site than as a total newb to Mafia like the other newbs from the Newbie game. Regardless, I definitely did not feel like his counter-attack on Artanis holds water. Also seriously dislike his tone, which he tried to excuse as being reflective of some real life situation, but I have the inclination to believe that it is more reflective of a short temper and not coping well with the mannerisms of TL Mafia. This isn't AI, though. I think I just might not like him as a player, as opposed to thinking he is scum for it. The hyper-aggression just makes me look down upon him. "What the fuck is this dumb ass argument?" - Why so serious, kiddo? Got your panties in a bunch? -_-; QuickTwat from here on out. However, I am inclined to lean town on him simply because he is playing with purpose and without much indication of being scum. I think he is making the same mistake I did D1 against him, which is ironic: jumping to conclusions. Also, he seems to have given a few free passes, which I don't like. Will have to stick to my read that QT vs. Artanis was TvT for now. Jean Valjean: + Show Spoiler + Seems like a constructive and experienced poster. Reacted well to my raising suspicions about his election strategy. Still gives me the creeps a little, but not enough to pinpoint him as the scum. I feel that his clear presentation of ideas makes it easier to work with him, whether he is town or not. Any deviation from this foundation he has made as a reputaiton would be under instant scrutiny. I'm okay with him being Mayor, I think. Hopefully I'm not wrong. Tictock: + Show Spoiler + I like his stance on QT's play, not so much on Artanis's play. His strategy for voting which would make him pardoner didn't make much sense to me. However, his other posts seem to be probing in directions I can get behind (beside Chez for Prez, which given Chez's filter I can't really take seriously). I townlean on him. More to come. | ||
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Jealous
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On June 27 2016 05:44 Damdred wrote: That's the thing though jealous the whole,basis for gb running for mayor is in his filter. And also your read still sounds like a scum read that ends in a non logical concussion. Would still lynch Tt first for,not doing anything at all He was pushing for mayor well before he revealed his blue role. I ignored it for that reason. When he saw that he wasn't getting support for his campaign which was basically "vote me mayor pls," he pulled out the claim, which I don't buy based on his play otherwise. This is what I meant by "if he wasn't pushing so hard for mayor, I would townLEAN him." Which means I don't townlean him. | ||
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On June 27 2016 05:30 Jealous wrote: QuickTwist: + Show Spoiler + I like that he has a serious approach to the game, but I also feel this results in him being somewhat obtuse in the early game of D1. Probably still acclimating to TL. It might be harder to do so as a player from another site than as a total newb to Mafia like the other newbs from the Newbie game. Regardless, I definitely did not feel like his counter-attack on Artanis holds water. Also seriously dislike his tone, which he tried to excuse as being reflective of some real life situation, but I have the inclination to believe that it is more reflective of a short temper and not coping well with the mannerisms of TL Mafia. This isn't AI, though. I think I just might not like him as a player, as opposed to thinking he is scum for it. The hyper-aggression just makes me look down upon him. "What the fuck is this dumb ass argument?" - Why so serious, kiddo? Got your panties in a bunch? -_-; QuickTwat from here on out. However, I am inclined to lean town on him simply because he is playing with purpose and without much indication of being scum. I think he is making the same mistake I did D1 against him, which is ironic: jumping to conclusions. Also, he seems to have given a few free passes, which I don't like. Will have to stick to my read that QT vs. Artanis was TvT for now. Jean Valjean: + Show Spoiler + Seems like a constructive and experienced poster. Reacted well to my raising suspicions about his election strategy. Still gives me the creeps a little, but not enough to pinpoint him as the scum. I feel that his clear presentation of ideas makes it easier to work with him, whether he is town or not. Any deviation from this foundation he has made as a reputaiton would be under instant scrutiny. I'm okay with him being Mayor, I think. Hopefully I'm not wrong. Tictock: + Show Spoiler + I like his stance on QT's play, not so much on Artanis's play. His strategy for voting which would make him pardoner didn't make much sense to me. However, his other posts seem to be probing in directions I can get behind (beside Chez for Prez, which given Chez's filter I can't really take seriously). I townlean on him. More to come. Skynx: + Show Spoiler + Has a fair mix of decent posts and really useless posts, but not many posts in total. Overall I can't say I agree with some of his reads and pushes, but I don't find them to be necessarily scummy? Kinda divided on this one, so I'll say he is null to me for now, maybe a slight scum lean if I factor in overall activity. Superbia: + Show Spoiler + Asks a lot of questions, which is good, but doesn't post much of his own thinking on matters until a bit later. On June 26 2016 21:44 Superbia wrote: I always reach conclusions, I just don't share all of them. ;p I don't like this mentality, however... I feel like this is pretty consistent of the Superbia I know from the Newbie game; he seems more suited to the role of interrogator than investigator, that's how he plays. It is an easier facade to have as scum, but at the same time I don't really get that vibe from him. Hopefully he will ask enough questions and collect enough answers to be pivotal later in the game (again), so I'm okay with keeping him around with a slight townlean.[/spoiler] Open for constructive discussion on any of the above reads. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler [Extreme paranoia] + I will have to examine MoosyDoosy vs. Jean for fear of this being a legendary bus. | ||
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On June 27 2016 06:07 Jealous wrote: Skynx: + Show Spoiler + Has a fair mix of decent posts and really useless posts, but not many posts in total. Overall I can't say I agree with some of his reads and pushes, but I don't find them to be necessarily scummy? Kinda divided on this one, so I'll say he is null to me for now, maybe a slight scum lean if I factor in overall activity. Superbia: + Show Spoiler + Asks a lot of questions, which is good, but doesn't post much of his own thinking on matters until a bit later. On June 26 2016 21:44 Superbia wrote: I always reach conclusions, I just don't share all of them. ;p I don't like this mentality, however... I feel like this is pretty consistent of the Superbia I know from the Newbie game; he seems more suited to the role of interrogator than investigator, that's how he plays. It is an easier facade to have as scum, but at the same time I don't really get that vibe from him. Hopefully he will ask enough questions and collect enough answers to be pivotal later in the game (again), so I'm okay with keeping him around with a slight townlean. Open for constructive discussion on any of the above reads. EBWOP (Sorry for posting during the night, had been typing for a while and did not notice the time) | ||
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On June 27 2016 06:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Absolutely 100% confirmed town Chezinu Town Quicktwist Jean Valjean Damdred Skynx Tumblewood Townish GlowingBear -power gap- Jealous Emperorarechampion Mildly leaning mafia Superbia Lean mafia Ticktock Could you elaborate on why Chezinu is such a strong townread for you? I didn't see anything in his filter that would make me townread him, especially not so strongly. | ||
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To me this makes the rest of your reads feel diluted if you are mixing in joke reads into them. What are your true feelings about Chezinu's filter? | ||
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On June 27 2016 06:36 Damdred wrote: Art I think w should move jealous up into the probably town. Had a thought about him and his moosey read. Jean had a decent shot being mayor and lynching moosey wouldn't be a bad play to hard bus moosey there. Instead he gives a pretty good rationale read of a null. Also even though moosey was about to flip scum he continued to give us reads because he had them, done. Its kind of weak and,maybe a bit dumb but I think he's town now. Why is sk so High again? Following this logic, I have to ask - why did you switch from GB to JVJ? You were the swing vote. | ||
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On June 27 2016 06:40 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I thought he was town already but yeah that's good reasoning. Skynx is that high because of his case on me which I find difficult to come from newbie scum. I will not lynch the Chezinu. He is my friend. No offense, but I find bias to be a poor mentality for this sort of game. Let me rephrase the question - What are your objective thoughts on Chezinu's filter? In other words, if you were not his friend, what would you make of his participation so far? | ||
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On June 27 2016 06:44 Damdred wrote: Because I didn't want ec lynched, I came up with decent reasoning foe him to be town. Gb was apparently lurking and not interested in discussing the lynch. Jean makes logical sense and cares and did the right thing for town. And was here actually trying to,figure things out. I'd much rather someone who's here,figuring,out over someone who's not. Plus got a stronger town read on Jean. Good answer. The bold above is very much in line with the way I approached my vote as well. | ||
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On June 27 2016 06:47 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I will not lynch the Chezinu. He is my friend. I don't like this answer ): Objectively analyzing a filter and sharing your conclusions would be to the benefit of the town, and you are dodging the responsibility. | ||
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On June 27 2016 15:00 Superbia wrote: If there's a cop check between TT and damd btw. Maaaybe Artanis. Wouldn't it make sense to check the town mayor/pardoner? | ||
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On June 27 2016 15:13 Jealous wrote: Wouldn't it make sense to check the town mayor/pardoner? Oops, ignore this post, I'm dumb and have re-read the rules. | ||
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On June 27 2016 18:52 Jean Valjean wrote: "hallmark of a terrible player" was perhaps a bit strongly worded. There's a lot of good players who fail to understand the three commandments of the townie. I guess something like "The hallmark of an incomplete player". Yea, I'm not a big fan of the condescension. From personal experience, I feel like it is very easy to dip into that vile habit when you put more effort into your writing and participation in something than those around you, or when you find yourself in a position of power. I think that the best way to get Superbia to come around would be to talk to him as an equal and not a thorn in town's side. When Superbia was dug in on what would have been a losing lynch in the last game I played with him, he came around to logic and reason, not because I berated him. I think he is a good player, and although his posting style can be somewhat irritating (multiple one liners and vague open-ended statements that are essentially "to be continued"), I feel that everyone has a different method of going about satisfying your three major town criteria. I sometimes catch myself typing a "stream of consciousness" post in which I end up contradicting my opening sentence with my last one, essentially catching myself in WIFOM when I would otherwise have been concrete on my initial analysis. Perhaps Superbia needs to hit the post button, re-read his post, and then post again to achieve a similar result. On June 27 2016 18:54 Superbia wrote: Jean, I understand that you have a vision and everything, but just remember that in the end it's just a game. I play to have fun. I don't have fun writing (and reading) long and elaborate posts. However, I can't really get behind this. Even if you are not a fan of writing long and elaborate posts, sometimes that is what is necessary to win someone over. Some of the inductive logic that results in a read or lynch cannot be simplified into two lines and contain words like "feels," so when others are not supporting you in a read you are certain of, it's time to hunker down and make your case as best as possible. This takes effort and is what makes this game interesting, in my opinion. If someone posts a long and elaborate post, you simply cannot be averse to reading it. The more words a person writes, the more indicators of their alignment are possible; if there are none, that may be suspect in itself ("narration" as someone put it earlier in the thread, I think?). If you don't read the long posts, you are ignoring potentially valuable information on three things: the issue at hand, the writer, and the intended reader. Reactions cannot be gauged if the initial post is not read. On June 27 2016 18:59 Superbia wrote: Treat others as equals, Jean. Ok I just got to this after I wrote the above, but hopefully it counts as more when another person seconds this sentiment. On June 28 2016 00:25 Jean Valjean wrote: He is probably talking about the bodyguard. This is the one thing that's going to be extremely helpful in deducing GlowingBear's alignment. His choice of bodyguard is very, very important. Do not let him get away with anything less than a full explanation for his choice and make sure it fits his thinking and approach. In addition, this is just speculation, but at some point in the game it may be a good idea to claim the bodyguard role. The reason is quite simple. We probably have some blues the mafia is going to be looking into shooting. A claimed bodyguard is a massive annoyance to mafia because if they want to eliminate me they have to first kill the bodyguard (if I understand the rules correctly). That means two extra nights for our blue roles to do their job. Also, this is more long term, but there is no world where we have named townie + 3 blue roles. That would be excessive, so if a situation comes up where the claims look like that, be very vary of the claims and start making hard decisions on blue roles. Can you explain the "two extra nights for our blue roles to do their job?" I don't see how revealing the bodyguard will result in this nor how it is a good idea. What if the bodyguard is blue? What if either you or GlowingBear have a blue PR? It seems like a potential stack of dominoes that could fall very quickly. I know GB claimed "named VT" which is basically a null Blue role, which sucks for town, but at the same time I've already expressed concern that this might not be the reality of the situation. Either way, I need to be convinced on this point. On June 28 2016 00:26 Jean Valjean wrote: Chez has been unimpressive so far. There's always a certain leeway with him, because you can usually count on him showing up to actually do stuff later in the game, but this is getting both annoying and suspicious. I don't trust quiet revolutionaries. I feel the same way. Artanis blatantly dodged my asking him to give an objective opinion on Chez's filter, which is very annoying too. It's good to see that someone agrees with me. | ||
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On June 28 2016 02:52 Skynx wrote: I'm at 49 right now and I found something interesting. So up until this page people are unsure between Moosy and emperor for a lynch, but so far Moosy has the edge and this happens: Tumble questions this and it doesn't get answered. Then Super, Tumble, GB, JVJ and QT are ok with emperor lynch. emperor between that interval did not post. He is also not playing well at all. He is almost all joky one liners with only exception being a JVJ scumread based on delusional stuff. So i don't think there is even a reason to tr EC to start with but even so why null read him when he's done nothing town indicative at all? EC's response to GB is so good that I want to TR him. | ||
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On June 28 2016 03:10 GlowingBear wrote: Skynx are you new to the game? Fresh eyes that it may be harder to pull the wool over  | ||
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On June 28 2016 03:58 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Why are you hard townreading GB? Why do you believe that having similar reads means someone's very likely to be town? Why is emperor in the 'super scum' category, yet Chez is in null? I am also interested in Skynx' answer to the first question. GB does not seem town to me right now. | ||
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On June 28 2016 04:39 Skynx wrote: [1]GB This post 1st opened my eyes: No one commented on this save Tumblewood. (also to an extent Art but he was more like ridiculing the idea rather than criticising) I thought it was a good hint at Damdred's 1st signs of being scummy. He is actively trying to progress the game + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 00:29 GlowingBear wrote: Ok but I need townreads We have to decide the mayor and the pardonner + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2016 12:07 GlowingBear wrote: Because silently wanting to be elected as mayor is something I would expect from mafia. If I am mafia and I'm seeing town organising themselves - specially when a town player is being elected as president -, I would start to discredit people in order to push my agenda. It's not like calling Koshi bad. I can call Koshi bad and not vote with him, but if Koshi was the towniest person in the game I would vote him 100% of the times simply because having a bad town mayor is better than risking having a good mayor that could be mafia + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 00:42 GlowingBear wrote: I had QT as top town for the way he was engaging the thread. But he isn't here anymore. Kinda dropped a little but still my top town. I have Tumble as probably town for his interest in the game and the way he was putting thoughts on what I've wrote. Downside is that I don't remember him giving any reads. I had you as null to scummy but I like the way you came back to the thread. You're leaning town. Damdred is leaning scum. I think most of his posts are disinterested, and that makes me suspicious of him. He is not naturally reacting to what has been posted but he is here. He just, from times to times, post reads and chill. The problem is that his town passes looks like the town passes he would give as town. Moosy I have a gut feeling he is town. Mostly because he was naturally reacting to what I have been posting in here. I don't know about jealous I don't know about TT (I have a gut feeling he might be town) Jean Valjean has very good posts and the only thing that gives me pause is his stiffness. Other than that, a townread. Artanis usually follows the thread and inquire people more as town than when he is Mafia. I've seen him too defensive in this game. Actually, his approach to the thread seems quite similar to the last game where we played together where he was Mafia. EC is my lynch of choice today. He needlessly discredited QT for mayor while still townreading him. Had very faint reads on his three townreads (the one on you was the worst). When I inquired him to explain he basically dodged, and when I asked a quotation on where you have being on point, he quoted your list post where you actually were very obscure on why Jean Valjean, with one post at the moment, was almost top town. It felt like he was simply making that up, not really believing in what he said. Objective gaming. I think all these are some good posts that are constructive and add to the general scheme of town action. Finally this; This conversation with emp is really good. Forces a lot of content out of him when he was all one liner posts. It is after this I went back to re-read emp and got my scumread. Good points. What do you think of his rise to power/push for mayor? His reaction about not becoming mayor? | ||
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On June 28 2016 04:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: LOL England 1-2 Iceland. Fuck yes. | ||
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On June 28 2016 04:51 Damdred wrote: I ho early don't know why nobody said this rip Please man, try to type more legibly ): | ||
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On June 28 2016 05:59 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Oh forgot about Emperor. Still leaning town for him due to attacking JVJ when no one was. Besides the fact that you were wrong here, I would like to point out that I was the only one who raised skepticism towards JVJ's campaign. If that's a metric you're going by, I don't see how you put me in a scum category. | ||
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On June 28 2016 06:06 Superbia wrote: TT why'd you visit QT bro? Wanderer is still a possibility although unlikely. Also could have been cop? | ||
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On June 28 2016 06:25 GlowingBear wrote: Confirmed town, impossible to be killed at night. This is perfect So let me get this clear on paper: you claim Vigi? | ||
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On June 28 2016 11:31 Damdred wrote: Then again he what if super is a rolecop and found out tt was a wanderer and he flips wanderer he can just go on his merry way and get not judgement because he claimed tracker. Maybe a mass claim of roles would be OK? If we have another information gathering ability with a vig and a claimed tracker we could go from there. Also if tt was mafia kinda would see him I tantly conceding to. But I kind of want a mass claim to see if wr have to many pr for it to be true. If Super is rolecop then there would be two rolecops, which I find to be even more unlikely. If Superbia found out TT was wanderer AND TT visited QT, that would be absolutely insane. I don't see a need for massclaiming as of yet. Let's just see how TT flips. | ||
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On June 28 2016 11:50 Damdred wrote: Actually just thought of something else. If emperor role ops tt and they get the check back in qt the other scum would know tt is a wanderer. Super could go for the mega plat and claim it on tt with no repercussions. So I don't think a mass claim is a horrid idea to make sure we don't have to many blues Honestly I don't understand a word of what you said here, probably because I'm newb. Can you explain like I'm 5? I still don't think a mass claim is a good idea and at this point I am growing suspicious because you keep pushing it when there is only 1 scum left. | ||
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On June 28 2016 13:57 Superbia wrote: Yoyo im rescinding claim bc we need the rest of day to discuss. Was reactiontes ??????? Why did you do this. | ||
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On June 28 2016 14:06 Superbia wrote: Bc its d2 and there is only 1 scum left so I could possibly bait out concede ^^ Okay, I can see that I guess. Can you explain the rest of the stuff that happened last page though? Actually, more like rephrase in simple English, please. | ||
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On June 28 2016 14:46 Damdred wrote: Simple English jealous Super claims track on tt Three situations 1) TT was scum that got traxked 2) tt was wanderer but got screwed 3) tt is a vt super does a play or is scum and dying tommorow There is a subset of points that's probably better described as a big play by scum who's alone Ec who's rolecop checks tt comes back wanderer Last scum super sees this and goes jackpot Claims tracker to coast out a few mislynches as confirmed town. Claims RB since then as scum is trying to find the bg and has reasons to be alive. Fact: super has rescinded a claim to bait out reactions or do a play as scum. I was thinking this makes tt and super probably town though. Thank you, this makes more sense now. | ||
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On June 28 2016 15:23 Superbia wrote: Are you scum Jealous? No. | ||
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Are you digging in or is there a point in me proffering defense? Right now I see these possible avenues: 1. I defend my play by pointing out things I did which would potentially indicate I am not scum. However, you might just see this as try-hard or suspect because I am looking at my own filter. 2. I post my analysis of EoD + N1 for each player. However, I somehow raised suspicion for doing a player-by-player filter read near EoD yesterday, first by Damdred and then by you, so perhaps that would again fall in your "trying to seem town," category. 3. I ignore you and act dismissively towards your allegations, which isn't really my style but given the reactions I've gotten since I was AFK and into my posts since then is what I chose to do when you first asked me in the quoted text. 4. You're digging in and there is nothing I can do. You seem to be the type to dig in/tunnel and it took some effort on my part to sway you into making the right decision in the Newbie game. This makes me think I should put effort in order to show that I am not scum and by extension increase the chances of town winning if TT doesn't flip red, because then one less day will be wasted lynching me. However, in the Newbie game I was beyond suspicion when I convinced you to change your mind. I guess it comes down to whether or not you would be swayed by someone you suspect directly answering your query in a manner you desire. And then, I am presented with WIFOM: If I do what Superbia says he wants me to do, would be detrimental to town because he would assume I am doing what he wanted in order to "try to seem town," or would it actually convince people that I am not scum and those people would convince a potentially tunneling Superbia? In essence, I feel that by getting hard townread by others in this game through devious play, you've achieved a certain level of power and sway and you're using this power to apply pressure. I was pressured in D1 and I did what I thought was right to relieve that pressure. I'm not sure that this would work with you in this case. Might be a case of newbness on my part. By this logic, I elect to do nothing until you can make a compelling case for why you think I am scum, or at least why I am more scum than anyone else in this game. If you put in the effort to do so, I will have more content to work off of in terms of presenting my thoughts on the game so far that may change your mind. | ||
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On June 28 2016 15:59 Skynx wrote: "kinda claimed scum". You're past the point of being credible at anything, since Super admitted fake and TT is town I think we can start that trio with you. I also think that this is a very weak read by Damdred. He seems quick to jump on people for single posts and words, as if people who are writing in this game are especially susceptible to Freudian slips. I wouldn't necessarily say that Damdred is scum based on this (although I had my suspicions elsewhere prior), but it certainly doesn't make Skynx look more scum in my eyes either. | ||
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On June 28 2016 16:12 Superbia wrote: Who's the last scum Jealous? Well, perhaps you ignored my post asking you to explain why you think it's me, but I'll humor you regardless. For a time I thought it might be GB because of the suspicious push for election. I am also not happy with Chezinu's inactivity or with Artanis' blind defense of him. I had a definite scum lean on Damdred, but it's diminishing slowly because of what he's been saying and how he's been humoring my (genuine) requests for detailed explanations. I still find his asking for everyone to reveal roles as an aggravating factor, so I'll leave him as a scum lean for now. I still have a mild paranoia about JVJ because he at least creates the image of a strong player who would be capable of busing that hard, but I will write that off for now because I accept that it is relatively unsubstantiated. I townleaned on Tictock before, and I honestly trusted you so much (probably because of last game) that I didn't even bother to doubt that you actually did track him. Now that you admitted that it's fake, I don't know how I feel about you, but I will probably rescind my vote on TT even though I just said it would be interesting to see how that plays out. I lean town on QT. For Skynx I did scumread him solely based on activity before and he still seems to be an intermittent player, somewhat similar to the Newbie game at points. So, at this point I'd say that my deepest suspicions are on Damdred, but I am not at all confident about it. | ||
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On June 28 2016 16:30 Superbia wrote: Why is Art cleared? I agree that he's town but he's not cleared. x; His reads so far have been pretty el terriblè. I didn't clear him. As I said, I don't like this buttbuddy status he has with Chezinu. Even if neither are scum, it is not helpful to the game. Chezinu has done practically nothing for the game, and Artanis will never act against him based on principle. Even if they are not scum, they are barriers to cohesive town play. | ||
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On June 28 2016 16:59 Skynx wrote: Mind you there is the exact same deal with damdred. As I said, I'm not happy with Damdred right now. Chezinu, maybe you should host or have someone host a psychedelic anthropomorphic Mafia game where you can all "troll" each other with randomly generated posts once every 12 hours ^^ | ||
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On June 28 2016 17:08 Chezinu wrote: If Damdred is the final terrorist found in our group, why do you think all the terrorist voted for different representives? Also, did you find it odd that two of the representatives became the presidential candidates in which they were to vote? They are playing two as one. 1. To show a lack of affiliation. 2. None of the representatives became candidates: + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 05:55 Rels wrote: Day 1 Final Votecount Jean Valjean (6): Artanis[Xp], Jean Valjean, MoosyDoosy, QuickTwist, Jealous, Damdred GlowingBear (4): Superbia, GlowingBear, Tumblewood, Skynx, Tumblewood (2): Tictock, emperorchampion Artanis[Xp] (1): Chezinu, Jealous (0): Superbia (0): Skynx (0): QuickTwist (0): Jean Valjean has been elected Mayor! GlowingBear has been elected Pardoner! Day 1 ends Sunday, Jun 26 9:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) in . TL countdown synchronizes with your device local time and not with the TL server time. It might be inaccurate. MoosyDoosy voted for his own death; in contrast, nothing else is as abnormal. The only candidates were JVJ, GB, and maybe Superbia which dissipated very quickly. They knew they had no chance of claiming a leadership position (if we assume Damdred is the third scum, of course). So I don't understand what you're trying to say but it seems wrong. | ||
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On June 29 2016 02:00 Tictock wrote: Oh and I think both Super and Damred said Jealous had some TMI looking reactions to Super's fake claim. Can one of you guys elaborate on that for me plz? I'd also like an answer to this. I openly asked Superbia to show why he thinks I am more scummy than anyone else. He only answered with "Who do you think is scum, Jealous?" I obliged, but I feel like I'm getting tunneled on since day 1, first for a policy lynch and now for some vague reasons. Example: On June 28 2016 23:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote: True, if you want I can provide additional argumentation. You're terrible at faking emotion. You tried it once in Millionaires and it looked awful but people still insta townread you since Emo Damdred = town. Since then you've talked a lot about how emotions shouldn't be used to confirm people as town and try to move away from it. Especially with people now knowing you're capable of faking it, I really don't think you would play this way at mafia, let alone be capable of playing this way. You've just felt extremely natural this game. Jealous hasn't and is highly likely to be mafia. The majority of the criticisms brought my way fall into these categories: 1) Tone: "mechanical." I feel this word was chosen because it has negative connotations, whereas I feel the more appropriate words would be "objective and logical," which is how I played last game as well. On a side note, I don't understand how people can trust the analysis of a person who refuses to look at the most inactive player in the game with any suspicion because "Chezinu is my friend, I will not lynch him." I also find it interesting that though I believe I carry myself in a similar way to JVJ, people see us opposite on the spectrum. It just shows how bias and bandwagon collide. 2) TMI: Stated multiple times with zero clarification or expansion. My actions since the EC lynch and Superbia claim have been: a. Believe Superbia blindly b. Say that Tictock could still be Wanderer, but vote for him anyway c. Defend my vote for Tictock because his flip would be the most revealing after Superbia claimed tracker d. Unvote Tictock after fully understanding why Superbia fakeclaimed e. Explain how Superbia is trying to corner me and how situations from D1/N1 have hampered my chances of making a sound defense, because if people are tunneling me then any of the avenues I listed would be misinterpreted as "try hard" or otherwise scummy. I fail to see how any of the above makes me scum. Saying that Tictock could flip green wanderer in this scenario in my opinion should give me townie points because if I was scum, I'd just happily join the bandwagon on mislynching someone who I would know is town. I wouldn't try to bring doubts into the equation immediately after Superbia claimed, and would just write off the mislynch as "oh wow what terrible luck." I still voted for him because it was the only rational thing to do, and I was one of the few people active in between Superbia's claim and declamation. Superbia's push was still good because we got a read on TT, but I don't think we've gained much more outside of that. 3) Neutral reads on EC/Moosy: This is the closest thing to an actual argument that I've seen for me being scum, but is still full of holes. Moosy is impossible to read in D1 and I stated that directly, while also mentioning that he is of no benefit to town. I feel like JVJ's lynch of Moosy was following the same logic, so I don't see how that can be a sticking point here. My neutral read on EC is one of many; someone mentioned earlier in the game that it is basic strategy for scum to soft scumread their cohorts in order to distance themselves should they flip? In short, I feel like I am being tunneled on largely over vague meta-reads and nothing that actually happened in the game. Some people admit to just skimming my post, which is just poor etiquette and doesn't help town in the slightest. This just makes it easier for scum to bandwagon on me, or just avoid voting for me altogether if the bandwagon is strong enough. When I flip town, the people that have voted for me and tunneled on me would become suspect; unfortunately, statistically speaking the majority of them would have to be town, and I do feel that of the people who have voted for/pressured me so far, I would townlean on most of them with the glaring exception of Damdred who I've been scumleaning on from D1. If ONLY town votes for me for D2, that is even more dangerous. I am open to any questions. | ||
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On June 29 2016 03:14 Damdred wrote: Why wouldn't it be a good thing mass claim with a tracker that claimed to track you to the kp. It was a kneejerk reaction and you brought it up way too early; like, before anything Superbia said was confirmed. Seemed like you were eager to get everyone's claims out in the open so scum could have an easier killing streak to the upset win. Don't understand why you have highlighted about me being vindicated. You always Lynch the red check unless you have a cc obviously. I'm not sure how much I can stick on this point because I am getting the impression that you are either foreign or your English is not that strong (perhaps this is influenced by your auto-correct issues). However, vindicated means: 1. clear (someone) of blame or suspicion. 2. show or prove to be right, reasonable, or justified. Both definitions point to you as being the one who read TT as scum and therefore you 1. are clear of blame or 2. are proven to be right, reasonable, or justified. If you had made a strong case on TT prior, then perhaps 2 may apply, but your follow-up reasoning here ("You always lynch the red check...") simply does not logically fit into this scenario. Your statement should have been "I was vindicated because I was scumreading TT from the start," as opposed to "I was vindicated because I voted in a logical manner." | ||
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On June 29 2016 03:23 Superbia wrote: Jealous how do you feel about your d1? I tried to make the best of a bad situation. As I explained in one of my first posts, I really had no time to be a participant at all up until the last few hours before EoD. I answered the Art vs. QT questio prematurely because I only read a few pages prior to being asked about it as opposed to the whole argument, which I'm not proud of. I like to do a thorough job, especially when answering questions, and I didn't do it there. I started making reads towards EoD which took a good chunk of time but I didn't make them as detailed as I had in the Newbie game because I was running out of time and wanted to get them out before N1. In the end, I feel that I put out more content than at least a few of the other players D1, which was my intention. To more directly answer your question, I am not happy with my D1 but it was the best I could do under the circumstances. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/510385-presidential-election-mini-mafia?user=Damdred If you look at the first page of his filter, he is all over the place. He gives out reads like candy with little to no substance, asks questions to multiple people about multiple other people which can all be boiled down to a simple "Why?" This seems like a classic case of misdirection and activity for the sake of activity. While the questions are pushing the game forward slightly (albeit blindly), he seems to mostly be building up his post count. + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 08:20 Damdred wrote: Let me be honest with you qt. Ignore moosey for all of d1, he automatically tries to do strange things d1 do no matter alignment he can survive till d2. Anyway art just easier to be on your good side atn On June 25 2016 08:25 Damdred wrote: I'm just saying don't make any judgements about moose till d2 as he will mostly be trollin. But unimportant. Well tumble just a gut feeling, his sort of dodging super and being kinda meh got me,there. I think there was one answer in particular about super if I remember right that bugged me. It's still early Here he gives the advice to outright ignore Moosy, as opposed to my stance which was "Moosy is not helping town." Yet, he seems it fitting to judge me for my stance? Hypocrisy at its finest. He pretty much gives him a free pass into D2. In the second quote you can also see how he makes a soft push with gut but then takes a step back within two lines; this is quintessential fluff posting, that if skimmed over may seem like he is trying to work out the game but it really contributes nothing. + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 08:30 Damdred wrote: Idk why I'm taking this game serious: (. I think because I live the host and cohosts How exactly is he taking this game seriously up until this point? This seems like one of those things where if read in a vacuum, it serves to establish himself was useful when he's been anything but. + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 08:54 Damdred wrote: Never lynching me Gliwingbear ever. Anyeay, art is right I'm trying to dial in so I'm a good person to sheep. As for the day pass yeah I generally give moosey one and it serves ok. It's like giving ls a day pass just works so well. All-around terrible post that is also revealing. + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 09:22 Damdred wrote: I think art v qt is t v t. Its good though keep it up. "It's good though, let's let two people who I townread continue fighting in order to waste more time in D1." + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 09:25 Damdred wrote: Like right now I have a small town circle of Super, art, qt, tumble, Damdred D1 pass moosey So already we have a nice schmuck taken out. This is the third time he has mentioned a D1 pass for Moosy in under 20 posts. + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 12:19 Damdred wrote: Man chez is so town I feel he's going at the top of my town circle. Seriously. The house of brown is great can I be a member this game chez and bring the politics of brown here? Anyway I really can't substantiate my reads tonight as I'm in a movie I'll do it tommorow. And they all can be broke down as meta/shallow reasons atm. But my early gut reads are good meh. I want to hear more on emperor and want tt to be in thread Another freepass to Chez a la Artanis. "House of Brown" - doesn't take much intelligence to realize that this means playing a vague Red/Green alignment? What benefit does this have to town? Why does Damdred suck up to this mentality and want to become a participant in this detrimental and vague practice? + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 12:23 Damdred wrote: It's interesting only people I'd be happy lynching into today Tt, sk, Jin, jealous Emperor im not sure of yet kinda want to put him out of conversation. But Im not sure why I don't buy the town reads on sk it just doesn't feel or look right to me yet. Mostly policy reads so this is excusable, but giving a pass to EC? That's 2/2 scum D1 passes granted. How do you get off on questioning MY reads of EC/Moosy on D1 when this is your stance? More to come. | ||
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On June 29 2016 03:35 Jealous wrote: Now I will construct my argument for a Damdred scumlean: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/510385-presidential-election-mini-mafia?user=Damdred If you look at the first page of his filter, he is all over the place. He gives out reads like candy with little to no substance, asks questions to multiple people about multiple other people which can all be boiled down to a simple "Why?" This seems like a classic case of misdirection and activity for the sake of activity. While the questions are pushing the game forward slightly (albeit blindly), he seems to mostly be building up his post count. + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 08:20 Damdred wrote: Let me be honest with you qt. Ignore moosey for all of d1, he automatically tries to do strange things d1 do no matter alignment he can survive till d2. Anyway art just easier to be on your good side atn On June 25 2016 08:25 Damdred wrote: I'm just saying don't make any judgements about moose till d2 as he will mostly be trollin. But unimportant. Well tumble just a gut feeling, his sort of dodging super and being kinda meh got me,there. I think there was one answer in particular about super if I remember right that bugged me. It's still early Here he gives the advice to outright ignore Moosy, as opposed to my stance which was "Moosy is not helping town." Yet, he seems it fitting to judge me for my stance? Hypocrisy at its finest. He pretty much gives him a free pass into D2. In the second quote you can also see how he makes a soft push with gut but then takes a step back within two lines; this is quintessential fluff posting, that if skimmed over may seem like he is trying to work out the game but it really contributes nothing. + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 08:30 Damdred wrote: Idk why I'm taking this game serious: (. I think because I live the host and cohosts How exactly is he taking this game seriously up until this point? This seems like one of those things where if read in a vacuum, it serves to establish himself was useful when he's been anything but. + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 08:54 Damdred wrote: Never lynching me Gliwingbear ever. Anyeay, art is right I'm trying to dial in so I'm a good person to sheep. As for the day pass yeah I generally give moosey one and it serves ok. It's like giving ls a day pass just works so well. All-around terrible post that is also revealing. + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 09:22 Damdred wrote: I think art v qt is t v t. Its good though keep it up. "It's good though, let's let two people who I townread continue fighting in order to waste more time in D1." + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 09:25 Damdred wrote: Like right now I have a small town circle of Super, art, qt, tumble, Damdred D1 pass moosey So already we have a nice schmuck taken out. This is the third time he has mentioned a D1 pass for Moosy in under 20 posts. + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 12:19 Damdred wrote: Man chez is so town I feel he's going at the top of my town circle. Seriously. The house of brown is great can I be a member this game chez and bring the politics of brown here? Anyway I really can't substantiate my reads tonight as I'm in a movie I'll do it tommorow. And they all can be broke down as meta/shallow reasons atm. But my early gut reads are good meh. I want to hear more on emperor and want tt to be in thread Another freepass to Chez a la Artanis. "House of Brown" - doesn't take much intelligence to realize that this means playing a vague Red/Green alignment? What benefit does this have to town? Why does Damdred suck up to this mentality and want to become a participant in this detrimental and vague practice? + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 12:23 Damdred wrote: It's interesting only people I'd be happy lynching into today Tt, sk, Jin, jealous Emperor im not sure of yet kinda want to put him out of conversation. But Im not sure why I don't buy the town reads on sk it just doesn't feel or look right to me yet. Mostly policy reads so this is excusable, but giving a pass to EC? That's 2/2 scum D1 passes granted. How do you get off on questioning MY reads of EC/Moosy on D1 when this is your stance? More to come. + Show Spoiler + On June 25 2016 23:50 Damdred wrote: How am i pushing shitty scum reads again? Why are my townreads super lazy again when i've beat most of the game to the same reads exactly? This post is terrible, largely because his scum reads ARE shitty (TT, SK, JVJ, Jealous) because they were all policy lynches. Those are base level scum reads. You make those based on a lack of content as opposed to anything actually said. His townreads ARE super lazy and his stance is NOT vindicated by the fact that they are the popular reads at this juncture; popularity does not imply that his reads had any substance to begin with. He gave out townreads with zero evidence, which is super lazy. Also, super easy if you actually do know who town is, being scum. + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2016 00:43 Damdred wrote: Give good reasoning on them right now TT. since you want to lambast all of my reads and say they are all shit lets see it with a decent explanation. Instead of proffering any explanation on his own reads, he pushes TT to explain HIS. + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2016 01:09 Damdred wrote: But on the other hand kind of want to townreads tt....hrmmm decisions come after food Already flip-flopping only 26 minutes after the prior post; maybe he decided that TT was not an easy target anymore? Or maybe he wanted to appease TT so that TT wouldn't counter-pressure him into actually substantiating any of his claims? + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2016 04:04 Damdred wrote: Well we can't have everyone town read there has to be a scum even outside moosey for you tumble. And Tt idk he just wasn't very smart in his postings took a post that was a compliment to him not being lynch bait now tried to use it to scum read me, and has been boring sense trying to make mud stick. Flips on TT yet again. Also tries to divert attention from Moosy yet again. + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2016 12:46 Damdred wrote: Seriously why don't we make me mayor? I'm still a good player, I'm obviously going to try this game and with double votes mafia has to kill me before lylo anyway. It's the best of both worlds, a good dialed in scum hunting damdred with double votes The summary of all of his (multiple) posts trying to get into a position of power. No substance at all besides "I'm a good player, guys!" + Show Spoiler + On June 26 2016 22:25 Damdred wrote: Nobody else over moosey super? How can one defend Moosy so much and get away with it? He goes on to make some long posts @Superbia where he actually does provide some content and explanations, but still pushes for a policy lynch on me. + Show Spoiler + Lol. + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 00:26 Damdred wrote: Dear God super I've explained twice why I think jealous is mafia. For asking me so many questions you aren't reading ny posts at all? I've been well,documented thinking Tt is scum More like he stated multiple times why he wants to lynch me for inactivity and flip-flopped on TT multiple times. + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 00:57 Damdred wrote: I won't vote gb or super and neither should have the pardoned position. And gb it's because you don't do well with these sorts of decisions tbh. While I tr both all a sudden the last few pages have made me kind of suspicious on super just seems off now. I would like to be pardoner or mayor. There will always be debate but I am one of the best players in this game. And idk why art isn't voting for me rip. I have to check the timestamp but I think this is before he votes GB. This is another one of his "I am the best player, so I should be mayor," and another buttbuddy request to Art and Chez, a few of which I have omitted above because that's all they really are. + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 02:12 Damdred wrote: Where did I give ec a pass I've been,trying to decide if he's scum or been for awhile I didn't,mind his early posts. And these later ones aren't horrid he's at least thinking. On June 27 2016 02:18 Damdred wrote: Gen I guess I did give him a halfway day pass Horrible lie, good thing he got called for it. + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 02:19 Damdred wrote: I'm trying to remember what I was seeing. I think he said some things that were ok but kinda side lined wanted to see more from him. But I probably would retract it but he's had some decent posts and went after a hard target so idk if I would lynch today This is about EC. "I'm trying to remember what I was seeing," when not too long prior he was supposedly reading filters, which he still could have done in order to better answer this question. Still hadn't given any concrete evidence thus far. + Show Spoiler + Although I agreed with this at the time, and still do (about it being a good thought), in the context of Damdred's posts I wouldn't think it surprising that this is an example of collusion in a Mafia QT in order to have EC save some face and Damdred jumped on it instantly. + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 05:05 Damdred wrote: Ooooo crap jealous is scum. He was the first to scum read chez and hasn't played with him. Come brothers it,must be done. So quick to create a wagon on me and suck up to Chez, in one breath and with no other rationale. + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 05:08 Damdred wrote: God the more I read the jealous post the more I hate it. The gb read doesn't make sense at all, it sounds like a scum read for lack of activity no real contribution to the game. But town leans him anyway. God that's craxy On June 27 2016 05:09 Damdred wrote: Like jealous isn't even reading the game it seems as its clear why gb is getting mayor because he's claimed blue lol? On June 27 2016 05:16 Damdred wrote: Just feels nm so fabricated idk what else to say about jealous reads. A lot of safe reads I think or ones that seem safe. Maybe I'm tainted by a bit of omgus but the list just seems strange to me. On June 27 2016 05:17 Damdred wrote: Idc about that now, really want other people's opinions about jealous read post. Really everyone weigh in On June 27 2016 05:44 Damdred wrote: That's the thing though jealous the whole,basis for gb running for mayor is in his filter. And also your read still sounds like a scum read that ends in a non logical concussion. Would still lynch Tt first for,not doing anything at all On June 27 2016 05:54 Damdred wrote: Lynch Tt Jean blah Ironic when 1. he misread my GB read in the first place and 2. he has done far less in order to substantiate his own claims. Pushes very hard for my or TT lynch. Is this what he meant by vindicated? + Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 05:57 Damdred wrote: I also think moosey flips town though meh. Just a gut feel nothing to base it on Some things don't change. + Show Spoiler + He's STILL pushing this alliance, so desperately. I'm not surprised that Art jumped on his bandwagon against me now. Everything after this is more recent. So, conclusions: 1. Weak early game that he tries to claim was strong. 2. Baseless pushes for mayor/pardoner. 3. Constantly sucking up to Chez/Artanis in order to get a townie alliance going. 4. A lot of hypocrisy and flip-flopping. 5. A lot of EC/Moosy defense and free-pass giving. ##Vote Damdred | ||
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On June 29 2016 04:47 Damdred wrote: Jealous I had a list in another post but I'd reevaluate people's motives after that. If I put in all that effort to lynch you and you flip green, then "there's no way over tomorrow" for me either, so wouldn't it be a poor strategy to hunt you down if I was scum? There are already some votes headed your way, and I had already scumleaned you at the end of D1. No one would have suspected anything if I just voted for you. Your read makes no sense in this context, nor did it really ever. | ||
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On June 29 2016 04:56 Shapelog wrote: Day 2 Vote Count Jealous(4): Artanis[Xp], Superbia, Damdred. Tumblewood Damdred(3): Tictock, Skynx, Jealous Tictock (2): Not voting (1), Chezinu Currently, Jealous, Is set to be lynched! Day 2 ends Wednesday, Jun 29 9:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) in . TL countdown synchronizes with your device local time and not with the TL server time. It might be inaccurate. Damdred is counted twice. | ||
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Also the timer hasn't been adjusted. | ||
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On June 29 2016 05:18 Shapelog wrote: (Correct)Day 2 Vote Count Jealous(4): Artanis[Xp], Superbia, Damdred. Tumblewood Damdred(3): Tictock, Skynx, Jealous Tictock (1): Not voting (1), Chezinu Currently, Jealous, Is set to be lynched! Day 2 ends Wednesday, Jun 29 9:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) in . TL countdown synchronizes with your device local time and not with the TL server time. It might be inaccurate. Pretty sure Jean Valjean's vote counts as 2 votes still, no? I just meant that you had Damdred listed twice. Also, the timer is still wrong because the date inside the countdown is still 6/26. It should be like this: [countdown]06/29/2016 23:00CEST[/countdown] | ||
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On June 29 2016 05:16 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Okay, everyone, listen. There's one thing I know for certain. Absolute certain. Damdred is town. I'm going to try to explain why. I want everyone to read this post and let it actually sink in. Think about it for half an hour or something to avoid kneejerk/tunnel replies. People aren't mafia because of inconsistencies. Town tends to be much more inconsistent than scum. People also aren't mafia because they happened to do things that aligned with mafia objectives. People are mafia because they're mafia. That sounds incredibly obvious, but it's something we often forget. Lots of these cases on Damdred revolve around proving he's been inconsistent, or doing things that fit mafia objectives, but it doesn't matter because they never asked the fundamental question: Is Damdred capable of playing this way as mafia? Answer: He is most assuredly not. I've got a decent amount of experience playing with Damdred, including in one of the longest and hardest scumgames there was. We had a team of Damdred, Ritoky, Superbia, Marvellosity and myself and the thread was over 600 pages long, yet there were often moments where it was difficult for any of us to get motivated to play. There were moments where we wanted to resign, and probably would've if it wasn't for each other and the good position we were in. It is my fundamental belief that Damdred would've given up already a long time ago. On top of this, as I've stated, Damdred is notoriously bad for faking emotion. When he's suspected as mafia, he often becomes trolly/happy because he doesn't like playing scum. This is especially true when his team sucks (which would've been the case here). As town, he becomes emo/unhappy and it either motivates him enough to try harder, or he just gives up and votes himself. In this case given the way the game's been going, it's been the former. We've seen plenty of examples of how Damdred's been unhappy littered throughout the game and they came at the moments you'd expect. Damdred's tried faking emotion before and it wasn't particularly believable. He's just not very good at it. The Damdred of this game has had an extremely natural progression in terms of emotions and tones that he could not fake. He doesn't like playing scum and surrenders when it's impossible to win. Damdred is not mafia this game, and I plead for you to believe me on that. I believe Jealous is, though I'm not quite certain on it. I do know Damdred is going to flip green. Please take a bit of time to take this post in and don't give a kneejerk response to it. I won't really take the 30 minutes necessary because the majority of your reasoning is meant to appeal to veterans and people with direct experience with Damdred, which means there is no way for me to refute them or support them. I just want to say that these meta reads are all very lame. Your entire play so far in this game has been meta-based and you pushed the few people you have no background information on (QT, myself). This is really weak in my opinion. You refuse to look at certain people based on God-knows-what, you place weight on prior experience working WITH the person without considering that perhaps they have changed their approach knowing full well that they can't be the same person they were when they were scum with you, because that'd be too obvious. In fact, you are talking down to Damdred about his abilities as a player (even though he is "one of the best" by his own words) if you think his persona is so static and predictable. Please, look within the confines of the game. | ||
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On June 29 2016 05:34 Artanis[Xp] wrote: It doesn't really matter whether you think they're lame or not, they're correct. Damdred and I can't both be mafia so either my reasoning is 100% sincere, or he's Town anyway. Since I'm being sincere, you can be certain that I'm not trying to mess you about or fuck with you. There's certain things you know about a player after playing with them for long enough that they can't change, or are just innate to them. I'm not saying he can't play a great scumgame; I'm saying he can't play this scumgame with this team. I believe that to be entirely impossible. Furthermore, given I've pushed people that I haven't played with (and also used non-meta reasons), clearly it's not my entire play. It's a major part because all that matters is whether players are capable of playing the game they're currently playing as mafia. If the answer is no, you know their alignment. 1. I agree with this. I do believe your reasoning is sincere in the sense that you truly believe it. I also don't trust your reasoning because I can't trust someone who blindly pockets people (Chezinu). 2. I understand where you're coming from, but “overconfidence precedes carelessness.” You are so confident in your subjective experience and understanding of the people behind the aliases on this site that you are willing to overlook concrete evidence. On June 29 2016 05:35 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I'm sorry you can't get your mislynch based on logic. You've got some good logic going on and I'm sure it's frustrating to lose out on a mislynch this way. Not something you don't deserve with the way you're playing but mafia is a cruel game and sometimes people are town for reasons that suck, but make them clear town nonetheless. I like how you use "your mislynch" to further incriminate me in the eyes of the reader. I am only pursuing this because 1. I've "got some good logic going" and 2. I, like you, and truly sincere in my analysis. This is the clearest scum to me right now so I'm pushing it with tangible evidence at a time when everyone else seems to be dozing besides Superbia and TT. I'm doing this for the good of town. As I mentioned earlier, if I do all of this and Damdred were by chance to flip green, wouldn't that look terrible for me if all I had to do was vote for him and cite my D1 reads? I might not be an experienced player and therefore not a strong player, but I'm not retarded and even I can see cause-and-effect on an a->b level. Speaking of which, if you were scum and Damdred does get lynched and he is green, that would look great for you, wouldn't it? You made such an impassioned case with pretty formatting and an appeal to the in-circle of TL Mafia. If you were scum and I got lynched and flipped town, that might be a slight hindrance to you but nothing you wouldn't be able to work your way out of considering so many others are also on this wagon and because you have pocket buttbuddies in Chezinu and possibly Damdred (from his posts, at least). This is an interesting hypothetical, something I'd want to explore if Damdred does indeed flip green, which I doubt. For now, I'm sticking to my guns. It's won one game, it may win another. | ||
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On June 29 2016 05:54 Tumblewood wrote: Fuck this I can't vote for Damdred this game Explain? | ||
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On June 29 2016 04:56 Shapelog wrote: (Correct)Day 2 Vote Count Jealous(4): Artanis[Xp], Superbia, Damdred. Tumblewood Damdred(3): Tictock, Skynx, Jealous Tictock (1): Not voting (1), Chezinu Currently, Jealous, Is set to be lynched! Day 2 ends Wednesday, Jun 29 9:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) in . TL countdown synchronizes with your device local time and not with the TL server time. It might be inaccurate. Just noticed that GlowingBear isn't listed here. | ||
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On June 29 2016 05:57 Tumblewood wrote: I don't think anyone can be the scum but jealous TBH (tt maybe maybe) But I'm not wholly convinced jealous is scum Explain? I'd like to see a case built against me that doesn't involve "feels" or an acronym like TMI with a lack of substance. This isn't directly towards only you, Tumblewood, but are the veterans really that lazy around here? Almost no one besides Tictock is posting quotes and examining filters publicly. So far, many, people are just stating their reads with a definite lack of substance from within the thread. | ||
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On June 29 2016 05:58 GlowingBear wrote: Because I didn't cast my vote on Damdred yet You're not listed in the non-voting list, is what I meant. | ||
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On June 29 2016 06:04 Tumblewood wrote: Tone The way Damdred reacted to suspicion I don't think could ever come from scum. Imagine he is: He has to solo through the game and get 4 mislynches. He has four votes on him, all looks lost. You push him hard and he keeps pushing for his preferred lynch and defends himself hard. It felt incredibly genuine to me. He has 3 votes and I have 4. You unvoted me and revoted me, btw. On June 29 2016 06:04 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Honestly it just feels that you're scum to me because of the... opportunisticness you're displaying? You're lining up my potential mislynch now for if Damdred flips green, which is something I'd expect from scum. You're not taking the super easy things mostly such as people talking to others as if they're confirmed town (TT used it on Damdred) because you know they're cheap shots. I only worded it that way because I feel like everyone else is pretty townie and the way you're going about makes me feel pretty confident that you're mafia. There was also just some actual sympathy for you, not gloating about it. I sincerely believe you're scum and I am sincerely sorry that you're likely to get lynched because people get townread for stupid reasons. Mafia doesn't necessarily reward those who play the best. I've experienced it plenty myself where people end up with stupid townreads that are correct because they just would never do it as scum; dumbtells were common in that regard. As for the Chez read, I'm sure you're aware it's obviously a joke. Your frustration regarding it also further fuels my scumread on me, as I believe it's a mislynch that you need as mafia. Rest assured that I won't keep that joke going should it get to LYLO, but I doubt I'll be alive that long. I've had Damdred as my scumlean since D1. In a situation where it's me vs. Damdred both getting votes for lynch in the wake of Superbia's play, I'll always choose Damdred. Examining that in a vacuum, that can't be AI because as scum I am doing it to get as a myslynch, as you said, and as town I am doing it because that is the strongest scum case presented so far and the one I can stand behind as town. I'm playing to win in either scenario. Also, as I said before, it would be foolish for me to put in all that effort if I was scum to mislynch 1 player when I have so many more to take care of. I'm fully aware that if he flips green it will look bad for me; rationally, as scum, I would use this as an opportunity to quietly wagon on him and if I am approached about it I would cite my D1 reads. Instead, I'm trying to lead the charge. If you combine all of these things into one, I can't see how you can say I'm playing with an opportunistic mindset. Thanks for your sentiments. I'm frustrated because it's bad for town, and I am town. People withholding reads and analysis is always scummy to me. Chezinu contributing so little for so long, your refusal to read this fact, and Damdred constantly trying to butter you two up just all seem like things that townies who are trying to win wouldn't do. As you said, all three of you can't be scum, but all three of you could have mannerisms that are not beneficial to town. I do want to note that I never said that either you or Chez were scum, just that your "house of brown" stuff annoys me. | ||
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On June 29 2016 06:20 Jean Valjean wrote: Hey guys, I'm partially unavailable today, and probably tomorrow too. I am sorry for that, I should have more time to contribute on thursday. I will try to make sense of what is going on in a little while, also I'm not particularly bothered about what we kill today. I was quite honestly looking forward to your input/analysis of the current situation to be honest ): Will you be able to catch up before EoD? | ||
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On June 29 2016 06:30 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Jealous, I like you and because you've been so upfront and mannered about things I'll read your filter and Chez's filter and give an actual read on him as well sometime before tomorrow. Hey, thanks It'd be no fun for me if I were to be lynched without a single person making a case against me that I can truly understand. I appreciate it. | ||
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On June 29 2016 06:18 Tumblewood wrote: I don't even know where to start casing jealous. there are a ton of things that should be huuuge mafia tells but from what I know about jealous's meta those tells probably don't even apply. Could you elaborate? | ||
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On June 29 2016 06:19 Damdred wrote: Meta is a thing jealous you just kind of live with through the opening portions of the game and later in the game is ignored usually. There are super strong meta reads in this game, mostly between myself and art. Partially towards gb before the claim. Besides that meta has been used pretty sparingly besides super as well. As for what's your play mafia wouldn't try that hard would come to the for front. Do I think your lock scum. Nit really I have some paranoia about someone else as well but meh. Why not make this case now? I may appear tunneled on you but that's because the only case I've been able to put my finger on with any degree of certainty. If you present a strong argument, I would like to think I am objective enough to reconsider. | ||
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On June 29 2016 06:42 Damdred wrote: I've put several decent arguments into the thread why I am not scum. Sure they do have wifom about them which makes them a somewhat weaker because I'm self aware of my meta. Like don't get me wrong I like both you and sk regardless if I get lynched both of you have the makings of good players that just need to improve some peripheral things. That's besides the point though. Honestly btw we can't wait till lylo or mylo to look into Jean or else he automatically wins if he is scum in lylo which is what I'm paranoid about. His post just sent shivers up my spine. Which stinks I can't be on the combo but maybe the way moosey gave himself up to Jean is indicative. I meant the case on who else you have scum leans on! | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On June 27 2016 02:26 Jealous wrote: I was already typing this out as I was working through the thread, so I will use this as an answer: Having read the past few pages that were largely Jean Vanjean pushing Artanis, playing petty games and platforming for presidency, I have to say that he has left a foul taste in my mouth. While I respect his use of language and mild tone, I have to say that he is trying too hard to push the notion that he is "smart" and that therefore the best choice for mayor. Scum can be smart too, and I think a smart scum would follow along the same lines that Jean is doing: 1. Lay relatively low at first and not draw much suspicion in either direction while the thread is in a tumultuous Day 1 state, Artanis fighting QT, lots of speculation going in every direction, etc. 2. a. Push a target that is already under pressure/suspicion from others using vague meta reads (paraphrasing what Artanis said, "If I had a dollar for every time someone scumread me for playing worse than they expect me to,"). b. Play word/mind games (and perhaps a little bit of fear tactics) to force that target to say things that Jean wants said from another mouth, giving him added external validity. "This is not incorrect, as mafia can never lynch me. My greatest strength in mafia is that I can beat people into submission with arguments and words." - Jean c. Essentially bullying him into voting for him as president. 3. Build a stronger platform for a presidential candidacy than any that has been posted so far, using big words and nice formatting to please the eye and make the reader complacently agree with the validity of his statements, in what could be considered a "last push" because of the timing (12 hours before EoD as opposed to any time prior). I find the fact that he has garnered a fair share of support and relatively little suspicion to be very alarming. Is everyone going for the textbook "he is active and pushing someone, so can't be scum?" I believe that can backfire terribly in a game such as this where that modus operandi would be an effective strategy for Mafia to get into a position of power and make the game much harder for Town to win. There have been four people whose names have been tossed around/who have been voted for/have pushed for presidency, from what I've read so far (I still have to go back to the early pages). In most recent pages, GlowingBear has been making some weak pushes for it, going by the logic of "Why SHOULDN'T I be President?" as opposed to "Here is why I SHOULD be President," which I don't like either. In short, I think that between those people (Superbia, Jean, GB, and one other person I am forgetting at the moment) there must be a scum. It is THE play of the game in this format, and for scum to sit back and allow Town to freely elect Town for both positions would be simply poor play. I find that to be less likely than scum being one of the power candidates right now. | ||
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On June 29 2016 07:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Alternatively, this could be the worst game ever where we lose from 9v1, starting with lynching one of our strongest players that was unshootable and lynched mafia D1. In theory, the more time that is spent in indecision, the more insurmountable his 2 vote advantage will be. I'm not fully convinced that he is scum, but if there is ever a time to do this, it would have to be all of us as one. I will see how it plays out over the next 20 hours and think about it. In the meantime... On June 27 2016 06:18 Jealous wrote: Very nice. I'm glad MoosyDoosy shenanigans failed him in this game. Glad I came around to vote for Jean. + Show Spoiler [Extreme paranoia] + I will have to examine MoosyDoosy vs. Jean for fear of this being a legendary bus. | ||
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On June 29 2016 22:50 Artanis[Xp] wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KlkEtLA.gif) Deadline's today right? That's kind of unfortunate since I've got improv until close to deadline. I'm still waiting for your analysis ): This would also help to quiet Jean saying you don't contribute? ^^ | ||
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As TT said, the main reason this wagon even gained traction was because of some flight of fancy, more of a sentimental "let's jump to conclusions because we want this to be the greatest game evar" than any real analysis of Jean's play. As TT said, Superbia could be equally guilty of the same legendary bus technique. Basing Jean's lynch on this and inactivity is too great a risk because we lose 2 potentially townie votes and we lose a townie who can't be NK. | ||
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GlowingBear, will you ever use your pardon? If so, in what scenarios and why? If you were in an endgame scenario where you had to choose between Jean and your bodyguard to lynch, who would you lynch? Jean: Under what circumstances would you push a GlowingBear lynch? | ||
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On June 30 2016 02:22 Tictock wrote: Eh while this is a decent WIFOM NK argument (and possibly the first I've seen made to TR someone) I think your assumption that QT was killed because he might be BG a little flawed. There is just as much chance he was killed because basically everyone agreed he was town or because he was on the right track and heavily TR. Though I think my first thought was also that he was killed as a potential BG. If he was killed because he was on the right track it would implicate Super actually. Wouldn't this be a little too... basic? Killing the one person who suspects you (I don't think there were others or if there were, they did not make a case like this) is suspicious as all hell and when you have the pick of the litter so early in the game, I don't think Superbia would go for something so direct. | ||
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GB is another person who can't be killed if his bodyguard is alive. In an end-game scenario where you have Jean/GlowingBear/Bodyguard/Random townie, if GB is scum then he will probably try to lynch Jean and then win the game at night. There are other such end-game scenarios where lynching GB might become an option for Jean, which is why I want his take on the matter. | ||
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On June 30 2016 02:40 Damdred wrote: GB is confirmed town jealous... Though jealous is almost dumb telling himself idk OH right. Whoops, I forgot haha. Thanks for correcting me. | ||
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On June 30 2016 02:44 Damdred wrote: I don't think that's something scum forgets who shot their partner. Ehhh its kinda weak, but I don't think I want to lynch jealous especially with his attitude/interactions today. I was writing up a long analysis on why we should/should not lynch Jean and many of them boiled down to some endgame variation of Jean/GB/Bodyguard/Townie so I started thinking about that scenario in a vacuum where one of them had to be scum and I forgot that GB can't be scum. It's like when you start a u substitution in calculus and you forget what your u was and didn't write your work down x_x I've forgotten that QT was dead before when doing my reads too, haha. I should be more mindful. | ||
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On June 30 2016 03:55 Tictock wrote: What I'm hearing is that this wagon is pure as fuck and everyone should get on it... I still think it's too much of a risk to take at this juncture, and would prefer to only do it if it is forced upon us as we progress through the D/N cycles. There are still quite a few cycles left until Jean becomes invincible as scum, which means plenty of other developments can occur that would help shed light on Jean and others in the game. Maybe my balls aren't big enough to join you on this wagon or perhaps I tend to be risk-averse, either way I am sticking to my guns (Damdred) on this one because it is the strongest case I've seen developed on a purely logical scale (as in, ignoring meta). If Damdred flips green, I have some other avenues to pursue but I don't want to reveal those until someone gets NK'd. Maybe scum will eliminate some possibilities and if I post my suspicions now, scum will be less likely to remove them from town's radar. | ||
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On June 30 2016 04:03 Jean Valjean wrote: Never, scum vigilante isn't a role in the game so he's confirmed town. Yea, I made a mistake, ignore that please ^^ I forgot GB was confirmed town when I wrote that because I was mentally trapped in some analytical end-game scenario hell. | ||
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When this wagon first formed, I thought it was purely to a light a fire under JVJ's ass and force him to devote some time to D2 and making reads, but at this point I feel like you guys are wasting valuable time that could be spent having him contribute to other reads with greater depth because you force him on the defensive. If he didn't have to deal with the repeated badgering, he might do something that is better for the town as a whole - i.e., provide detailed reads. This would be to town's benefit whether he is town or not, and some of the things he may say would be more AI than him trying to stay alive. So, in pursuing that line of thought: JVJ, why not Damdred? I posted a pretty detailed list of posts from him and my interpretation of them. Despite you saying that you like my play, you seem to not even have him on your radar. Cut your losses on defense and consider that the best defense could be a good offense. | ||
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On June 30 2016 04:41 GlowingBear wrote: EC was really important for Mafia for he was the rolecop. With the rolecop ability EC could find the bodyguard faster. That's why Moosy sacrificed himself. That's why Mafia probably voted Jean Valjean day1 (so Mafia wouldn't lose probably their most important role). That's why Damdred, voting me then hammering Jean, should be the most suspicious person to you guys. Regardless of his play, all hard evidence points him to be EC's partner. It amuses me that you guys are town reading Damdred after all that. He needs to get out of our way, no matter how townie you believe Damdred can be. I'm talking about HARD EVIDENCE. Great post. On June 30 2016 04:42 Skynx wrote: These lynches are wrong. We're not hunting a confirmed scum here, we're just considering options. "Hmmm, I'm not feeling like chocolate today so lemme get strawberry ice cream" is wrong, it should be "Oh, I'm definitely feeling like caramel today!" I feel like no one has been conclusive with their reasonings why someone can be scum. We should try a different approach. Here is a thought, you know who's name haven't been mentioned at all by anyone today? + Show Spoiler + TW You've already responded to what I believe was the conclusive reasoning on Damdred, so I don't see how you can say this. | ||
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On June 30 2016 04:59 Skynx wrote: Alright lets try this, who's everyone's next target if Damdred dies tonight? Chezinu ... ... ... Artanis JVJ Superbia | ||
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To be fair, I didn't put much thought into the actual order of the bottom 3. This is of course if we lynch Damdred today, which seems to no longer be happening. Either way, I'm AFK for a bit. | ||
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I don't think TT is, as of now. I think that the cases on Jean and Superbia are similar from what I've read so far, so that is a confusing ordeal because if one of them is scum then either one of them is playing an incredible scum or one of them is playing a bad town. I think we can assume the former to be true. Superbia has shown himself to be a clever player in both games so far; Jean has shown himself as a much more transparent and open player. If I had to decide between the two of them, I'd go with Superbia. However, I'd really need to dig in his filter to find any evidence to support this inclination because from the D1 filter read I did on him and what I recall from N1/D2, I haven't seen anything overly scummy from him. This is now on my to-do list. Artanis was my only other pick besides Chezinu. Why? Perhaps there is more than "meta" behind his townreads on people. If Damdred were to get lynched yesterday and he made that long and almost exceedingly townie-toned post about why Damdred would be town, then he would get a lot of credit and whoever pushed Damdred might be in the spotlight. This is the perfect scenario for scum - divide the town between the people who wagoned Damdred and those that did not, with him being the leader of the "did not" party. Of course, only scum or cop would know for certain that Damdred is not scum. If Artanis was scum, it'd be very wise of him to counter-argue a strong case that I built against Damdred with "meta" and nice formatting to basically say "Damdred can't be scum, he is super town," and in this scenario WHEN and not IF Damdred flipped town, Artanis could use this as leverage as both a case against anyone who voted for him (especially me) and as a defense against anyone who questions him ("But if I was scum, wouldn't it make sense for me to allow town to mislynch Damdred?"). This is all circumstantial and by no means confirmed; I still need to lynch Damdred to see how it plays out, but if he does flip green I want everyone to be aware of this possibility. So, Skynx, who to you is scum then? | ||
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On June 30 2016 12:56 Damdred wrote: I wonder also how long jealous is banned for? Anyway his refusal to really take part in the Lynch was a bit meh. Will have to wait a bit to see though What's "meh" about sticking to the best case that has been presented against anyone so far? The case against Jean boiled down to "Wouldn't that be an epic bus and thus an epic win for town if we nailed him?" The case against Chezinu was "He's uncharacteristically AFK, he ain't done shit." The case on you involved me digging, citing, and analyzing your filter for 5 pages in a transparent and manner, with other people supporting my analysis. Why would I switch to a flimsy Chezinu read when my own read on you had far more substance? I understand that as my target you can't be expected to stay objective, but come on now. At least present it in a different way if you're going to bring it up at all. | ||
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On June 30 2016 21:18 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So what you're saying is you don't believe I can have as strong a townread on Damdred as I say, therefore I must have TMI? I guess that's a roundabout compliment in a way. I know you despise meta, but take a little look into my previously played games, please. I have never ever tried this hard as mafia under suspicion, let ALONE when the rest of my team died early. If I was in a team with MD and EC (and I mean no offense to them) I would've just given up on D1 and let the lynch wash over me. I would not end up having the longest filter in the game. No, I'm saying that your townread on Damdred might truly be valid in your eyes, or you might just be trying to take a stance on him that automatically excludes the people who don't have your experience with him. Essentially you are appealing to a certain subset of the town population and excluding the other, forcing a divide between the two. Whether this is intentional or not, I don't feel comfortable taking your word as gospel on the matter without substantiated evidence within this game. Essentially, you are asking newbies to trust you, whom they do not know well as a player, about your analysis about Damdred's meta, whom they also do not know well. Try to see it from at least my perspective, as I cannot speak for others. If you came into a game that hinges on deception, would you feel comfortable trusting the guy saying "I've been here before, I know you're new but trust me on this one?" This isn't Diablo 2 where you can trust Deckard Cain and Akara to not stab you in the back, this is more like Skyrim where the NPC at the bar will poison your drink and leave you in some temple halfway across the world under the pretense of a drinking contest. I'm not willing to devote hours into reading previous games just to catch up on meta reads, that's just not a reasonable request in my opinion. Also, doing what you say in order to trust you more is the same as a prisoner determining his own punishment; you're naturally going to propose the avenue that is most beneficial to you but not necessarily the one that is most objective. In other words, make a case for why Damdred can't be scum along the lines of what I did, within the confines of this game as opposed to an argument that has prior knowledge as a prerequisite. Also, I know you said you don't want to discuss reads (can you explain why, by the way? I don't think I understand your explanation because newbie), so maybe this is more up your alley in terms of meta: You and others have used the argument that "Damdred/X/Y would have already given up if they were scum in this scenario." What players do you think would not give up in this scenario? Would you give up? | ||
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On June 30 2016 22:05 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I understand what you're saying, but I do believe there's a certain level of trust that is required at some point. It is guaranteed that one between Damdred and I is town, so either my analysis is 100% sincere, or it is 100% correct from your perspective. The frustrating part to me is, I suppose, that his alignment is so blatantly obvious to me that it's difficult to spend a lot of time on disproving the reasons people bring up. It's kind of like a bunch of people claiming the moon is yellow because it emanates a yellow glow. I still know the moon is white, and I know the yellow glow emanating doesn't make it yellow, but to anyone who hasn't seen the moon before that very day, they may believe it to be true. As for my personal analysis, I presume Damdred can confirm that, and probably others in the game as well. GlowingBear and Superbia SHOULD be able to, presuming they've paid enough attention. As for not giving reads until the night deadline; I don't think it's clear who's getting shot. Posting my reads may result in an alteration of the night kills. Say no one suspects you and you're town and I come up with a big case on you; scum may have wanted to NK you, but they then decide to NK someone else as you turn into a viable mislynch. That's why I'd rather not go into reads right now. At first I thought this was a great metaphor and got me to understand your side of it completely. However, even though the moon is white the majority of the time, it is still yellow when it appears yellow, it is still red when it is red, it is still black when it is black. In reality, the moon has no color. Color is a subjective, human perspective. The moon merely reflects the light, angle of light, or lack of light shone onto it, and we attribute color to it based on the ways our eyes perceive a small portion of the light spectrum. Even a moon that in your experience of 27 days appears as one color, at least one day out of the lunar month it will be a different color. Replace day with game. In other words, I find your absolute lack of faith in Damdred's ability to change his play given the circumstances to be pretty complacent and potentially just as myopic as my unwillingness to see the things I've dug up as anything but scummy. I see, that makes sense. I was going to pose a question to the town as a whole asking something along the lines of, "if the person you suspect as scum were to lynch anyone, who do you think it would be?" and I came to the same realization: anything said in response would simply be a confounding factor when the NK does come, so I didn't post that ^^ | ||
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On July 01 2016 00:11 Damdred wrote: You lacked a real driving force EOD to try to get people back on me jealous tbh. It's all fine and well to have what you consider the best case in the game, (which I've answered every point to in a coherent fashion) but if you don't really take part in the Lynch it's really for naught. Anyway sk is it just jean now for you as scum? Or do you have anyone else you are thinking of here? I won't have time before EOD to post a last second read post so I'm going to treat this like lylo and figure out people as I go. Well, I did respond to Skynx and whoever else would say "there's no real case on anyone else right now tbh," and etc. I also argued against the Jean lynch at the end, which in essence is the same as arguing for people to reconsider you. I also pushed Jean to read my analysis. I pushed, but once people wagoned on Chezinu I didn't see anything else I could say that hadn't already been said. I wasn't entirely averse to a Chezinu lynch either, even though I still would prefer to lynch you and that hasn't changed as of now. | ||
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On July 01 2016 09:05 Damdred wrote: But I will say I would shoot people that tr me if they can catch me ie rs, hf, Jat, palmar. In this situation I wouldn't shoot art I think. But it's so wifom,because he was the hardest read town person in the game everyone else people hesitate on. What do you think is more likely scum play: 1. Someone who Artanis suspected was scum is getting rid of Artanis? 2. Someone who Artanis read as town getting rid of Artanis because suspicion on them would be unlikely? | ||
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On July 01 2016 14:32 Skynx wrote: Arantis is an interesting kill but I doubt it is based on suspicion. He was nk'd more so because he's prolly never getting lynched this game. Damdred what do you think about this hypothesis? | ||
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On July 01 2016 18:11 Superbia wrote: Actually jean can never live to final 3 because he'd win if he's mafia. Agreed. | ||
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Because of math. | ||
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Even if GB is still in the game and he pardons either himself or whoever the other townie is, Jean will just NK the other townie, GG. Without Jean being in the final 3, there is at least one more Day for the three remaining players to figure out who is scum. With Jean being in the final 3, even if he is not scum, we place all of our faith in his decision. I trust two heads over one, in the sense that the two remaining townies would know that each of their votes is as crucial to winning the game as the other's. However, this does not mean I support lynching Jean now or at any point prior to this situation. When there are only Scratch that. We have 8 players remaining at the start of this Day cycle. This means that (if we assume there is no pardon): After D3 = 7 people After N3 = 6 people After D4 = 5 people '' N4 = 4 people '' D5 = 3 people '' N5 = 2 people, gg This means there will never be a Day cycle with 3 people, or an odd number of people (again, if we assume no pardon). If we get to this point of 4 people (D5) and we lynch Jean and he flips town, then town loses. At D5 people can still lynch Jean with a 3-2 majority, but this is also risky because if Jean is town and votes a mislynch, scum can shenanie at the last moment and swing the 3-2 in the other direction and win that way. Thus, if we don't lynch scum in D3 or D4, town will likely lose. Therefore, Jean must die in D4 in order to give town another day to vote. | ||
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Will have to analyze this when I have more time tomorrow. | ||
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On July 01 2016 19:32 Jealous wrote: Bah, scum wouldn't even need to shenanie in D5, they would just have to vote for Jean just like the other two players remaining and that'd be a wrap if Jean was town. Yea, damn, I didn't put enough time into the above post. I thought it would be pretty simple to math it out but it's mad complicated. Even if we forget PRs for a moment, there are the following scenarios: 1. Jean is scum, and pardon has been used. 2. Jean is scum, and pardon has not been used. 3. Jean is not scum, and pardon has been used. 4. Jean is not scum, and pardon has not been used. Each requires their own mathematical breakdown. Agh. | ||
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On July 01 2016 19:43 Superbia wrote: It's not that difficult. 1. Pardon if bodyguard is about to get lynched. 2. Pardon if glowingbear and bodyguard are alive during final 4. The reasons as to why pardon will be used are not mathematically relevant, it's the fact that to prepare for all possible scenarios one needs to examine both whether it does or does not happen, whether Jean is scum or not scum. As you said, Jean cannot be in the final 3. My argument is that he cannot be in the final 4, either. | ||
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On July 01 2016 20:28 Jean Valjean wrote: This is a dumb discussion and you should reconsider if you actually think this. Essentially you're telling the scum "hey, if you get a mislynch today, you'll get a free extra one tomorrow!" We're not going to default lynch, we're going to keep lynching the most scummy people until the game ends. True, especially the last bit. However, being short-sighted has already cost us. I don't think it's bad practice to map all the possible roads this game can take. To what benefit? Can you elaborate? The only thing I can think of is to potentially force a vet to claim because he will think he has been shot? | ||
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Losing Chezinu because of what was effectively a policy lynch. | ||
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On July 01 2016 22:42 Jean Valjean wrote: See I disagree. I don't think it was a policy lynch. At the time I had more reason to believe he's scum than anyone else in the game. On the other hand, as admitted back on day 1, I have a particular weak spot in reading trolls, so perhaps people who know how to understand and figure out trolls considered it a policy lynch. Where do you stand today? Damdred has been playing pretty well ever since I raised the case against him. It's causing me to doubt my initial conviction. As I haven't had any detailed cases built for anyone else, I will have to do some filter digging when I get the chance, but I am moving today so I don't think I'll have that time for quite a while. | ||
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On July 02 2016 00:00 GlowingBear wrote: Jealous, what's your read on JVJ? Despite my initial misgivings, I have been leaning town on him for a while. I will have to look through his filter to see if that should change. | ||
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On July 02 2016 03:17 GlowingBear wrote: I'd love if you did it. I'm really interested. I will. As I said though, I'm moving today so I might only be able to start in 12 hours. To-do list: TT, Damdred re-hash, JVJ. | ||
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On July 02 2016 03:58 Superbia wrote: GB does not need to claim BG per say. The better play is to claim one (or two) people who are definitely not the bodyguard. That way if GB die we have Jean and that person as confirmed town. I wanted to say this later but w/e. This is really good. I like this. | ||
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On July 02 2016 05:57 GlowingBear wrote: This votecount is more informational than the final votecount Elaborate please? | ||
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On July 02 2016 10:31 GlowingBear wrote: I'm so sad it isn't Damdred Bittersweet victory Same here. GG, fam. | ||
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