EPTGoddamnit I want to play in a game with HTS so I can lynch her again xD
Star Wars: The Mafia Awaken
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NocturneMage
United Kingdom1965 Posts
Goddamnit I want to play in a game with HTS so I can lynch her again xD | ||
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NocturneMage
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edit: Actually why not. I can't troll HTS so I'll troll scumformation instead. /in | ||
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NocturneMage
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Besides, there's never any harm in getting anyone to try, all they can say is no. On February 03 2016 22:41 disformation wrote: Would take Vig, too, just to shoot NM N1. Not happening if you get policy lynched d1.  | ||
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On February 02 2016 23:35 Half the Sky wrote: Poe Dameron ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/il5bC1J.jpg?1) He can fly anything and blast anyone away. He may blast one player of his choosing at night. General Hux ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tS17MM2.jpg) The ruthless commander of the Starkiller base squad, General Hux wields a powerful gun he can use to assassinate any one player of his choosing. So if these guys get roleblocked when they shoot, they get their bullets back right? | ||
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NocturneMage
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Somehow I missed this...derp. Also disformation on that list of 40 things, I'd have to agree Han carrying them was pretty lame...but a number of those gripes aren't really plot holes or could be explained in other films. IDK. Like #40 yeah a lot of shit was on repeat but it didn't really bother me as much. I know some of the diehards complained about how the film was put together, tbf, I think the next two episodes have different directors/producers, so whatever, it might be different next go. Abrams isn't doing dick all after this I think. | ||
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NocturneMage
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He probably didn't have enough coffee Koshi.  (If you don't get it, you'd have to reference the PYP obs qt.) | ||
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On February 04 2016 03:45 darthfoley wrote: Also, might've missed it somewhere in the OP, but what's the rebel/first order # breakdown? 17/5 or 18/6? For a 17-player game it is always 13:4, and anything above 13 players will probably have more than 1kp in there somewhere. For 20 players or more there are generally 5 scum players and after that, it's mainly on the hosts to adjust the kp so that the game is balanced. | ||
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NocturneMage
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On February 04 2016 03:12 darthfoley wrote: may the force be with you ....unless you roll dark side. On February 04 2016 03:51 disformation wrote: Mh. Actually the problem might be dehydration. Drank a lot of water and feeling way better. Will take a short nap after dinner so I can play for a bit when the game starts.  May the RNGesus be with you. ##shoot disformation Joking, though I am glad to hear you are feeling better. | ||
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NocturneMage
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LOL disformation, forget me trolling you, looks like you'll have your hands full! | ||
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up a bit late but let's see what I can get out of the first few pages before I crash page 9/10 Zyrre - says he's town in the opening salve and then apparently bails. Don't know the guy, seems new to the forums. He could have gotten something of the rest of page 9 or at least something behind but didn't. For now a light scum lean. Contrast that with marvellosity who just checked in and I got a "whatever" vibe from him. Mind you it's late for both of them, so IDK. ritoky I'm feeling town from the way he's interrogating disformation. The Damdred/disformation interaction appears based on meta - I will defer to something else to read them (I don't like using meta I'm not sure of). Don't have good reads on either Palmar/Noon/DF pages 9/10. Koshi's behaviour through page 11 can come from either alignment. Don't like VayneAuthority's post 238 asking Damdred's methodology. Why can't he just separate the pre-game whatever and judge what Damdred has actually done? Seems a bit forced there. No good read on JAT either. Latter is saying he wants to hang back on day 1. Reactive games are usually a scum tell for someone I don't know that well, but he's not new either it seems. Not sure if this is his normal meta. | ||
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NocturneMage
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Also I got the same impression as ritoky - what alignment indicative information is disformation getting from me in asking my opinion on meta reads? Does he mean MY meta reads on others or others' meta reads on people? I think from a contextual standpoint I can guess why he's asking me this question but aside from trying to gauge whose meta to judge or trying to get me to compare someone playing now (which is bad this early in d1) - one of which I've already commented on - I don't see how that question "adds" to the game or how I see things presently. | ||
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On February 04 2016 12:44 Damdred wrote: Nm why would you need to rely on someone else read on me when you generally have a decent read on me exactly? Darths posts aren't that bad I think you guys should give him some space to react under no pressure since he is a newbie I believe I'm looking at the interactions between disformation and you - I was trying to answer for myself whether his read on you was scummy/trustworthy, not my read on you. You are looking okay I think so far. I'm trying to take a closer look at disformation. | ||
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On February 04 2016 13:00 disformation wrote: still bed still phone still bad: mage i dont really dig your list. too much inconclusive stuff i am not sure why you bothered to add it. not answering my question makes me like you even less. but fine if you need some help with that ill dig some stuff up when i am not in bed and at my pc. Yes there was a reason I didn't answer it. On February 04 2016 12:48 NocturneMage wrote: Regarding the point about disformation noticing people making noted comments and then bailing, zyrre being one of them, my only issue with that post is his lack of differentiation between Zyrre and the others - there were some differences imo - but that's not an issue that ncessarily makes him scum. Noting that for Zyrre alone is a towny trait though. Also I got the same impression as ritoky - what alignment indicative information is disformation getting from me in asking my opinion on meta reads? Does he mean MY meta reads on others or others' meta reads on people? I think from a contextual standpoint I can guess why he's asking me this question but aside from trying to gauge whose meta to judge or trying to get me to compare someone playing now (which is bad this early in d1) - one of which I've already commented on - I don't see how that question "adds" to the game or how I see things presently. If you mean MY meta reads, I try and stick to people that I play a bit more often with. And even then I'm under the 10 or wahtever game threshold to really make that a great read, so I generally defer to other shit. If you mean others' meta reads on people I don't really trust them, and I use interactions or other ways of evaluating people. | ||
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On February 04 2016 13:03 VayneAuthority wrote: nocturnemage probably scum, that post is str8 up garbage. i have to check his past games I guess No because you are scumreading me for something that don't make me mafia. Your side of the exchange was a grand total of two posts, the second of which was meta - under normal circumstances defensiveness is usually a scummy trait. You not saying it explicitly then was odd to me (no conclusion from the reaction test or his response to it). | ||
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On February 04 2016 13:00 disformation wrote: still bed still phone still bad: mage i dont really dig your list. too much inconclusive stuff i am not sure why you bothered to add it. not answering my question makes me like you even less. but fine if you need some help with that ill dig some stuff up when i am not in bed and at my pc. Here's a hint - contrast my null reads with some of the other reads on some of those same people. As in, I cannot see what is so town. Palmar was aggressive IIRC as scum in Outlaw and somewhere in this thread there was a townread on him for aggressive tone. To me that isn't alignment indicative. | ||
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On February 05 2016 00:25 Rels wrote: Yep I said the same like 5 posts ago. That won't stop me from calling out illogical things I see. I'm waiting for NM to answer something that didn't make sense from his PoV unless I'm missing something. First comment a bit ironic coming from VA as someone also not posting much in comparison but I digress. IRL I'm quite busy most of today tbh but I will be on much later tonight to catch up again and drop some thoughts. Should be a bit more active tomorrow (Friday). It is what it is. To answer Rels, though the time of my first catchup I did not talk about DF because he had posted in some of the latter pages (~page 11-12+) and regarding the people bailing, I knew they bailed because I also double checked their filters in conjunction with their activity in the thread. (I had multiple tabs open - when I am in catchup mode, I try to track both ensuing conversation as well as what I'm reading.) Although others had commented on Zyrre, what stuck to me about Zyrre is that he explicitly said he was town and left. The others didn't. VA's first post when I first read it jumped out as a lame excuse to me for calling someone mafia that didn't make someone necessarily mafia. There's nothing wrong to me making town reads (or forming a "town circle" as others might put it) or trying to do so and then proceeding from there. Especially that early in the game there's not a whole lot to go off of where you can have a reliable scum read. That's why I felt that entry was forced. | ||
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Read the exchange I had with him about cherry picking. The first post jumped out at me for scummy reasons. When I read the Damdred/VA exchange in full he looked worse IMO. He claimed a reaction test but didn't make a conclusion in the exchange itself - it took my intervention before he said "btw he's town" (paraphrasing). The whole thing just struck me as odd from a town side of things especially when (ignoring meta) being defensive for most people is generally a scummy trait. And current page, I also can't understand the rationale he's discussing when there is a strongman shot that can be used anytime, but that's a separate point. | ||
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NocturneMage
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And as far as being overlooked I don't think I'm the only one who felt in a similar vein - IIRC ritoky (who I am townreading atm) felt to say something of your scum meta that you don't call people town/mafia right away when you are mafia. He used a meta argument, mind you but isolating that exchange, it isn't unreasonable to question why you aren't drawing a conclusion straightaway from that reaction test. | ||
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NocturneMage
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Alright, clearly I'm doing a terrible job explaining this because no one is understanding what I'm trying to say here. Going to try and refer post by post if that helps: First, Rels, my issue is not the townread. It's how he stated it and his tone in coming about it (post 238). Try and see this from the perspective of someone who's not played with this guy before. If I'm being bad or nitpicky, whatever I'm just pointing something that looked off. After Damdred responds, he's said he's kidding (post 241) then why would you say "I just wanted to see if you reacted defensively" as if he IS trying to get something out of that? That's what I put emphasis on. That's why just reading it, I expected a conclusion. And then only in post 266, he STATES that (presumably) based on meta Damdred is town. Why would you expect me to know that when I'm first reading it. Based on what you said, I POSTED after it, yes but that's because I was catching up. Damdred being defensive = town - generally I associate defensiveness with being scummy but my issue was that he didn't state ANY conclusion in post 241. He stated A conclusion after the fact. Does this at least make a little more sense now? | ||
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On February 04 2016 10:55 ritoky wrote: also VA might be mafia cuz he posted 3x w/o calling someone mafia or town or voting on someone; which is outside his normal town meta. On February 05 2016 01:20 VayneAuthority wrote: Also Ritoky was mostly likely joking so the fact you took the bait on that is also lolz FWIW, doesn't look a joking tone or a reaction test to me. | ||
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(1) because he didn't actually state it, (1a) the answer to that is no, depending on how he'd had stated that I'd ask why he's townreading him for defensiveness but that would have been explained surely (2) his stating it gives me more information about where he stands because we've used two different methods to come to two different conclusions in an isolated situation. and I say isolated because Damdred has had play outside of that exchange. still reading up... | ||
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My read on ritoky doesn't change here - he's calling boxerfred out to figure out the motivations behind what he's saying. Both players (posts 290/296) complain about the other's presentation of ideas, bf's point 4 makes sense re-reading the ritoky/disformation exchange but the rest he's trying to break down what he sees. His phrasing "constructing a whole lot of reasons over a four-line post" indicates to me the presentation of ideas could be colouring his read. My only beef with boxerfred is the last part - he's saying "lynch anyway" but the very next sentence says he's going to ignore him and trust someone else's read on him. That's a towny trait to defer to - why BF ignores it or doesn't see it right away - I'm also going to place it under the "bad" category rather than "mafia" since I would think mafia would be a bit more careful about that. posts 303/309 fall into the resolution part of what I'd expect from town on town, continuing with posts between Rels/BF/ritoky. When I've played with ritoky and he's been mafia he's been out to get people, I don't see that agenda here. Rels same deal, he's trying to flesh things out. BF is going on about (381/382/390) as to why he still feels ritoky is scum and it's definitely not out of bounds for town play given the perspectives he's put out. He's unafraid/stubborn, so I think he's town. | ||
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NocturneMage
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Skimmed through Koshi's filter (lack of substance I think) and his progression on ritoky is basically WTF. Will elaborate in next post real quick. | ||
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NocturneMage
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On February 04 2016 19:37 Koshi wrote: This sentence I can agree with. Also for the amount of posts ritoky made I don't know about him yet. Which is odd. On February 04 2016 20:20 Koshi wrote: Just wait in the shadows bro. I don't think Ritoky is the lynch here. So here's what is weird about Koshi. He's not elaborating initially on why he can't make a read on ritoky then he responds to ritoky that his posts are boring. (Generally that's a scummy trait - not to mention I disagree with Koshi's conclusion, because ritoky has been anything but boring, trying to push the discussion forward especially early this cycle.) At this point he should be scumreading (or at best nullreading - but the basis is extremely unclear) ritoky. In his filter and in this exchange (bf/ritoky) he tells ritoky's biggest pusher to "wait in the shadows"? And saying that ritoky "isn't the lynch"? where did that come from? This is the opposite of what I'd expect from someone who isn't impressed with ritoky - if someone is scumreading someone you are ambiguous on, where is the thought process coming from at the very least to say "wait in the shadows" when he's townreading bf (post 394). Nor is he even making any effort to figure out ritoky's alignment. It's just odd at best for someone who I understand is normally keen to solve the game or try. Like if I had to take that train of thought on ritoky alone I'd say it's hedging which is scummy. There's clearly evidence to the contrary, others have made reads on him both ways, including bf at latest. | ||
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Just started reading and catching up again, I want to talk about Koshi, and I see DF's beat me to the punch. When I saw his response to me, he scumread it for being long winded. I saw no specifics from him, I would have expected more considering bf went on about ritoky and he townread bf (quote, I forget the post reference but offhand "bf is town bro" or something) and I mean he went on. As for long winded, it was a progression. How did he get from point A to point B was what I was asking. I felt it was important to ask that because I get information from that and furthermore he didn't answer the question either. | ||
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On February 05 2016 02:57 Koshi wrote: ritoky is Damdred mafia? On February 05 2016 03:04 Koshi wrote: Damdred his posts have been really bad. Holy mozes. This also has me scratching my head. I read his filter and this is not the impression I'm getting at all. Looking for further interactions with him: On February 05 2016 08:09 Koshi wrote: My biggest problem as well. Normally you can just read it in the tone of his posts. On February 05 2016 08:10 Koshi wrote: It actually isn't. I can see him believe that. I can believe it. I read for context too and I can't understand these after he's clearly saying his posts are bad. Is (from Koshi's perspective) Damdred bad or mafia? The last quote is a stretch but he's not even using that to find out Damdred's alignment. | ||
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On February 05 2016 01:59 darthfoley wrote: @Rels, and a tiny bit of Koshi shade I think you're reading too much into a few cheeky posts at the beginning of the game. Nothing was really going on by that point, so I didn't feel the need to be super serious. I'm just not understanding why you aren't holding others to this similar standard of scum indicativeness; Zyrre, who made the "woo i'm town" post hasn't posted since and only NM seems to notice. He's also EU time which makes it even more sus imo. Not sure why other people can post shit memes and make jokes, but when I say "roger Gold leader" in a Star Wars themed game early D1, you scum read me for it. I literally said "i am here guyzzz"... like why would I ever be so literal in my phrasing if I were mafia? This whole poke on me seems a little overzealous to me. I understand probing, but this is pointless. When I say that I'll be back in some hours, but still make a post, I simply don't have the time to make in depth posts or filter dive, but I have enough time (~5 minutes) to defend myself from rather toothless accusations. @Koshi I appreciate your compliment. I hope I will continue to impress later, when I have time to actually analyze interactions in a meaningful way. Put me in, coach. On February 05 2016 05:33 darthfoley wrote: Idk I find it perhaps a little suspect that bf (kinda), ritoky and damdred have all defended me already, using variations of the experience card to help me. I especially find it ironic, because if I were to use the defense, I would be immediately scum read. I think i'm a fairly obvious pocket opportunity for experienced mafia, so i'm particularly wary when a bunch of vets start defending me off the bat from rather average pokes by Rels. It just seems off. Darth, do you have an actual read on Rels? | ||
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NocturneMage
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On February 05 2016 11:35 justanothertownie wrote: I think atm you are doing what HTS does when she is mafia, NM - directionless rambling. Are you going to call Koshi mafia or what? If so please make a case with a few short bullet points as to why. No questions, no summarizing of what Koshi did just your read on Koshi with the specific reason for it as short as possible. Because from your posts I can't distinguish between the things which you think are scummy and things which don't match your expectations of how Koshi should play. If you have more scumreads do the same for them. Good night. Fair question, I am going through filters and coming up with a town circle/do not lynch list today. And the reason I haven't put my vote on Koshi yet is because I've been out of thread for awhile - I want to make sure I am not missing someone that I think will be a better lynch. If I had to put my vote on someone now, gun to my head, it'd be Koshi. | ||
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On February 05 2016 13:44 ritoky wrote: NM i am interested in your read on JAT, you should totally give one. GO! Typing up a long post where my head is now, but to answer you, I think he's town. | ||
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I am also a bit worried Palmar might be mafia, I am detailing that section out now. In short I read 4 of his town games, read Outlaw. In short, his day 1 of this game so far, reflects outlaw day 1 (his filter through page 3 of his filter). There are a few other parallel points I want to draw as well. | ||
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NocturneMage
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(1) Why are you townreading me? (2) Why is Damdred a leap of faith? | ||
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On February 05 2016 14:06 MoosyDoosy wrote: leap of faith damdred. Go chezinu 3 justanothertownie 4 VayneAuthority 8 Onegu 9 Zyrre 13 Koshi 14 boxerfred Reason I asked was because "leap of faith" makes me think you aren't so confident. What's your basis? | ||
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NocturneMage
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ATM do not lynch list/town list (explanations if it's not already in my filter) JAT Damdred darthfoley (getting town feels from the filter) disformation (the host thing, lazy on my part, I know, even that aside, just different feels from Dark Tournament) ritoky boxerfred marvellosity Pure Policy Onegu (no read on him either way) MoosyDoosy (prior to the town read game - trolling is meh, much has been made of him possibly WIFOMing as scum. town meta is easily replicable as scum) Chezinu Chezinu - No idea how to read this guy just reading his filter. Never played with him. I get the "I don't give a fuck" vibe from him, and no one is scumreading him as I recall or screaming for his lynch, and I figure there must be a reason for that in this group of collectively experienced players. If this guy is mafia, I'm probably going to get there by process of elimination. | ||
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On February 05 2016 14:16 MoosyDoosy wrote: (1) You leap into game using convoluted af reasoning to explain shizz which is NM style of play. But tone read seems genuine which means ur trying to solve game. So town. (2) At this point, there is a small group of people I don't try to read due to heavy bias. One of them is Damdred. Seeing as ritoky picked disformation and Rels as townreads, I'm going to ask you this next question. Both disformation and Rels have both scumread me at points for not being able to follow my train of thought. What does this make you think of them? | ||
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Nooniansoong - I can't be sure. The policy lynching isn't outside of his town play (reference Newbie 18), post 664 and 716 give me competing reasons for both alignments. 664, he's drawn attention to himself as scum, 716 appears to me he's finding a way to avoid being scumread or some worry of his appearance. I understand the sentiment for policy, not playing but game, but I'd policy lynch only as a last resort. Key emphasis on last resort. A few things here would help me resolve his alignment Zyrre - alright, I'm under the impression he's relatively new but I don't know for certain. I think someone mentioned this earlier but with the exception of VA/myself, he's largely ignored some of the other things going on. ritoky scumread ignores his early game for example. I am - and so have others - issues with Palmar. The point on Damdred seems like it's just there (posting just to post), isolated amongst his complete gameplay. If he can talk about Palmar, Koshi or any of the other players not mentioned, it might help me get a better feel for him, agenda-wise. The caveat though is his experience. If post 135 is a true reflection of his experience I might need to consider re-adjusting my expectations but I think more interaction can resolve him. If not, then I would argue he's more likely to be scummy, but given the sheer number of people he's not touching fleshing him out is the way to go. | ||
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VayneAuthority - I am going to do the same thing as I did with Rels and deliberately ignore any interactions with myself. Don't ever recall playing with this guy. But going through his filter, I am wondering if some of the little things are adding up here. - He calls Rels nitpitcky defending JAT. No conclusion on Rels one way or another. (post 508) - Then somewhere in the filter he says he's trying to improve my day 1....a bit interesting when JAT questions him on the named VT thing. He says he wants the lazy way out on day 1. - On that point, from VA, zero other town reads, or should I say zero town reads, period, and I am at present the only scum read. (The difference between him and Noon, for the people that say Noon has zero reads is that he's made a point of deliberately not trying to play, and VA is trying to play but I digress). This begs the question, should town proceed to mislynch me, where does he go from there? - speaking of which, he made a comment on using the named VT thing as a bait. But Rels asked me about this, (even if he said it was a reaction test of sorts after the fact) so here's my honest opinion on it. I am sceptical here that this is possibly (let alone exclusively) town - the objective should be to solve the game, thinking it through the greatest threat to mafia are the ones who try and do that. If they have blue abilities to get even more information, great. Just play the game and keep mafia guessing, no need to default/give them extra kp like that. Hypotehtical situation, say if for some reason other blues are NKed early because they are game-solvers/threats/etc (many reasons people can be shot). Say scum incorrectly blue read someone. Shot missed. Named VT claims subsequently. Just saying. Good play can narrow down the lynch pool for scum, and I don't think giving extra kp is the way to do it. Some people tend to solve better late game for instance. Just play the game and ignore mechanics for the purposes of that argument. - Marv calling out the reaction test and the purpose after the fact is another interesting point. | ||
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On February 05 2016 14:50 ritoky wrote: NM why did you not pick yourself in the game? and did you make anything of moosy picking you? ? I didn't pick myself because Moosy already picked me I thought? As for Moosy picking me I am trying to wrap my head around where he stands with the people who scumread me for not being logical especially as he didn't pick them. He's saying I'm town for using convoluted reasoning. Even ignoring that, he should remember the few games I've had with him - I want to say fullmetal, he was vigi and I'm pretty sure I was more logical in that game. I am trying to get a grasp on that townread. Newbie....12? 14? the one game where I saved Moosy from getting mislynched. I played very different from this game. Meta expectations I think might be off, but it's possible he may have just forgotten, since those games were a ways ago. | ||
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On February 05 2016 14:55 Damdred wrote: Its moosey though, its something he wouldn't pay attention to as town. Moosy has admitted in the past he'd wifom stuff as both alignments IIRC. I think he's capable of doing such as scum. I also feel his day 1 play can be easily replicated as scum. Therefore I am going to ferret him the old fashioned way especially as I have only 3 people out of a possible 4 I'm scumreading. | ||
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On February 05 2016 14:59 ritoky wrote: you could have picked yourself with your first pick, you chose marv. well I derped then. honestly had to go back and look. | ||
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On February 05 2016 15:11 MoosyDoosy wrote: I would honestly not take you ritoky. As adorable as you are, I prefer a Damdred leap of faith over you right now. Especially right now. Why? | ||
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And if you are sure he's scummy, describe the context of his overall play - does that change anything? | ||
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On February 05 2016 15:13 MoosyDoosy wrote: something about reading disfo, and ritoky by extension, his push onto someone, and something else i forget. That's quite the non-answer for such emphasis and conviction sounding words. "I would honestly not take you ritoky." "Especially right now." As if something has to be jumping out at you to be so assertive about that. And that's your response? I'd have expected you to be more sure of the reasoning. | ||
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So what is wrong with ritoky? You really haven't answered. | ||
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On February 05 2016 15:20 MoosyDoosy wrote: tbh i would normally engage you since it's actually fun and it's cool to see you think but i'm getting tired and it's late. xdddd meh, I've been up all night tbh for reasons beyond this game. whatever. good night. | ||
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Palmar - read the following games for a compare/contrast: Tropical Storm, Down Under 3, Generic Boring. - In Generic Boring, he was dead wrong everywhere but he was assertive as all hell, was n1ed - Tropical Storm, looks like one right read, one wrong one (Damdred/rsoultin) but here, he goes pushing rsoultin on voting record, and is adamant he knew when to drop a townread on someone/knowing whom to sheep, not seeing that here. Important because a number of people in reading this thread are saying "game is hard" to some extent. They all can't be mafia. A cursory look through Palmar's filter - no strong town reads (i.e. I would sheep so and so) - Down Under 3 - Here, another example of one of his "absolutist" posts. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/490661-mini-mafia-down-under-3?page=52#1026 Checking OP, all but one of these are wrong. Note: I purposely ignored PYP because a) it was a themed game b) multiple mafia teams The big contrast for me is tone. I'm seeing a lot of conditionals in this game (i.e. bf might be mafia), and a lot of absolutes in the above three games. Like he's so sure of himself even when he's wrong. The one thing I notice is his main involvement with JAT/marv/Koshi - two of which I'm townreading. Leads into the big contrast is his normal meta of lynching the inactives, the scummy players, etc. I'm looking for a push or even a trifle of anything against the sheer number of lower content players or even (almost universally?) scumread/discussed myself. Nothing. From Tropical Storm - and I know he applied this in PYP On August 17 2015 01:18 Palmar wrote: Some Pálmar advice: Do NOT try to find someone playing an "amazing" scumgame. Lynch people who are inactive, don't contribute and in general do scummy shit. It's way too early for tinfoil hat theories. Finally I re-read his Outlaw Mafia filter for day 1 to refresh his day 1 scum play (go to his filter - read pages 1-3, day 1 ends at page 3) - and I'll be honest - his game so far here is a lot closer to his Day 1 play in Outlaw. I think people should read it - there's a lot of missing town tells that were present in the three games I discussed above. | ||
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Disclaimer: I'm reading Nutcracker, a few of his other games, same base issue as the issues with Palmar. I'll flesh this a bit more fully out....when I wake up. With respect to this game, the two things that stand out: (1) His progression on ritoky On February 05 2016 03:26 NocturneMage wrote: So here's what is weird about Koshi. He's not elaborating initially on why he can't make a read on ritoky then he responds to ritoky that his posts are boring. (Generally that's a scummy trait - not to mention I disagree with Koshi's conclusion, because ritoky has been anything but boring, trying to push the discussion forward especially early this cycle.) At this point he should be scumreading (or at best nullreading - but the basis is extremely unclear) ritoky. In his filter and in this exchange (bf/ritoky) he tells ritoky's biggest pusher to "wait in the shadows"? And saying that ritoky "isn't the lynch"? where did that come from? This is the opposite of what I'd expect from someone who isn't impressed with ritoky - if someone is scumreading someone you are ambiguous on, where is the thought process coming from at the very least to say "wait in the shadows" when he's townreading bf (post 394). Nor is he even making any effort to figure out ritoky's alignment. It's just odd at best for someone who I understand is normally keen to solve the game or try. Like if I had to take that train of thought on ritoky alone I'd say it's hedging which is scummy. There's clearly evidence to the contrary, others have made reads on him both ways, including bf at latest. On February 05 2016 03:56 Koshi wrote: Pretty long winded way to ask my read on ritoky. But I forgive you: Could lynch, but not today. Response is of a double standard (why is bf town when he did the same thing) and long windedness isn't necessarily scum. Also I think it was JAT who mentioned meta. but I'm using his action in the game here to scumread him. Irrespective of what I think he "should" do, the quotes and responses stand on their own. (2) and on Damdred On February 05 2016 02:57 Koshi wrote: ritoky is Damdred mafia? On February 05 2016 03:04 Koshi wrote: Damdred his posts have been really bad. Holy mozes. Not even considering meta, this alone, there's no followup. There's no effort or response or a further push from this. Separately, I get the opposite impression here on Damdred but that aside, another observation is that I'm not seeing anyone else scumread Damdred AFAIK. Not my townreads, not really anyone else. At least not that I'm remembering. | ||
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On February 06 2016 01:09 nooniansoong wrote: 1 I don't expect zyrre to roll scum, then start thinking up mindgamey things to say about how great it feels to be town. Someone like ritoky would do this, someone liek zyrre wouldn't. 2 HIs read of ritoky is changing as he is reading. He's thinking deep about NM's argument. Guaranteed town. This is one of the reasons Zyrre should be in the 50/50 or "leave it to inv" category. The other reason he should also be in the 50/50 category is that there is soemthing in his "shitty" post that everyone is going on about. Yes, it's bad. Yes, marvellosity has drawn a comparison between the 2010 post and this one. But there's one thing that is worthy of consideration and that's lack of time. First sentence in Zyrre's post mentions he was (paraphrasing) pressed for time to play. The town perspective here is that if someone doesn't have much time to play their reads are not going to be so good - in fact their reads are not going to be good as either alignment, really - and whatever sticks out to them sticks out to them as they are reading. The "game is hard" argument (subsequent post) has been used by people from both alignments, and quite frankly he's not the only one to have said this. I still want to engage him if he's around through end of cycle. If he should be mafia, and he gets lynched (seeing as he's likely to be a competing wagon), we get possible information on his partners. If people aren't voting Koshi or VA, then Palmar is the way to go today. Again, as I skimmed through, whoever mentioned the lazy argument in his favour I'm not buying it. As I said for Moosy Doosy laziness/not playing is a meta/behaviour/whatever phrasing you want to use that is easily replicated. Also having played Dark Tournament, I understand Palmar is not a player who plays or is active on weekends. This is not alignment indicative - judge him on the output so far. And as such I'm voting him. | ||
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On February 06 2016 02:43 Zyrre wrote: Marv, the biggest difference I see in my filters is activity. I think I was just more confident as it was a newbie game. Still, it was one game 2.5 years ago. I dont even remember it. ......and I was effectively ninjaed. Still I think my explanation is valid. | ||
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On February 06 2016 02:50 disformation wrote: And why didnt you vote Palmar before? Waiting for the thread consent? I started at 3am CET, I crashed somewhere between 8/8:30. This is day 1. And if you look at the votes, consolidation on day 1 is a mess. If you're town you want to consolidate. If I - or others - can come up with preferred lynches based on things I feel make them mafia, be it meta (yes it can be used properly, I didn't ignore your post), or be it lack of direction (see marv's last post), then I don't see what the problem is. People also had trouble understanding my previous arguments against VA, so I re-presented it ignoring myself (bias). I feel there's adequate cause for being scummy. That said, I want to ask you disformation, why you are not asking this same question of VA. He has said dick all prior to my "why Palmar could be mafia post". (Yes I realise I'm voting WITH him on Palmar, but that's besides the point, other townreads are doing so, and we can see based on the flip what is going on. I am confident in a red flip and then we can evaluate the context of how people got there.) | ||
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On February 06 2016 00:38 VayneAuthority wrote: oh and ##vote: Palmar He is supposed to be my day 1 antithesis, the pinnacle of good day 1 play. where is that here Read VAs filter. ZERO mention of Palmar and this timing was well after my post/others' discussion. Ask him that too. | ||
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On February 06 2016 00:46 Koshi wrote: VA bestest buddy. Please vote Kush. This is lazy town Palmar. Kill him D3 if he is alive and still trash. How are you sure that Palmar can't replicate this as scum? And what are your thoughts on marv's point about him not having direction? The reason I ask you this is from what I previously read, marv/JAT, you seemed to be in a lot of conversation at times, together. So I think you are in a best position to evaluate this. | ||
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Also you want to talk about Dark Tournament (Noon, pay attention please, I think this also answers some of your concern on my case too) - even in Dark Tournament day 2, you remember when HTS got lynched. Palmar was lazy as fuck that game but HE STILL HAD DIRECTION. He came in and used his "lazy filter criteria" to correctly place the vote on HTS. Even if you don't like my case, even if you don't like me, you cannot ignore marv's logic. HE HAD MORE DIRECTION ON A LAZY DAY IN DARK TOURNAMENT THAN HE DOES HERE. | ||
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On February 06 2016 02:43 Zyrre wrote: Marv, the biggest difference I see in my filters is activity. I think I was just more confident as it was a newbie game. Still, it was one game 2.5 years ago. I dont even remember it. Do you have an opinion on Palmar? One way or another? Do you have an opinion on the people (other than previously mentioned) who are voting him? Let's start there. | ||
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On February 06 2016 03:43 disformation wrote:
More games = stronger basis. Third point, Dark Tournament shows an example of what he did do as lazy town and why that is missing here (lack of direction). Voting Palmar is town consolidation and I presented my view - how is this exclusively scummy? | ||
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Noon, having played in NSM18 and you tried to pull the same thing on Onegu, can you at least state where you'd put your vote or if I had to give you a hammer who you would hammer for a scum lynch? | ||
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On February 06 2016 03:55 boxerfred wrote: also no idea about Palmar by the way, didn't even remotely look into it. He's the leading wagon. I think you probably should. | ||
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On February 06 2016 03:48 Koshi wrote: This doesn't proof anything but something funny I saw in database. Just proof that Palmar is also shit as town. ??????????? To use an example from where I played in rayn's aborted invite game, he stopped playing at a given point and was shennanied onto during the weekend. Even in THAT game he was more opinionated and absolute. Here he's played. He's actually played and there's material he can be held accountable for and most of that was Wed night/Thursday. The game started Wed night. We're now at Friday night. So the whole weekend business is out the window based on what he has posted. Based on what he's posted, the "shit as town" argument shouldn't apply here. | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:05 disformation wrote: like can anyone sell me the palmar lynch without referring to meta? Did you read marv's arguments against him? | ||
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On February 06 2016 02:35 marvellosity wrote: Palmar - my vote is on him, and he's a decent lynch. Actually I think his absence today is kinda non-admissable, i think as either alignment he'd show up if he could. Not totally sure though. My main issue with Palmar is that he has quite a few posts but none of them are really pushing anything forward or finding mafia. Ironically if his filter was half the size I'd be more inclined to think he was town. If he comes in later while i'm out and makes a case on me, lynch him. Just lynch him. He knows I am town (or should at least feel i am) and would never want to lynch me today, he'd only be doing it to destabilise whatever influence I have on town. And yes he'd do it even after I wrote this. He may come back and look town, which is nice. I'd also note it's not beyond mafia Palmar to afk and hope for the best when he's mafia, even if i do rather think he'd come and try do stuff. | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:11 Koshi wrote: Explain this pls. I didn't read the invite game at all. Trying to say that the number of times he's been lynched doesn't correlate to what you are saying. Not to mention it doesn't account for scum lynches either. It's a poor point to make. | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:13 Rels wrote: This post is really good. marv is almost conf town in my mind. I read the first few posts of zyrre in the other game and the difference is day and night. The only thing is that the game is 2 and a half years old so it's not fresh meta, but it shows that Zyrre is capable of subtle reads. His garbage list post is even more garbage when we compare it to what he is capable of. I commented earlier on a possible caveat or two. Does that adjust your expectations? | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:16 boxerfred wrote: What's wrong with you? Read into Palmar/noonian and drop some reads. He already did, and he couldn't read Noon for shit prior tbf. | ||
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On February 06 2016 02:28 darthfoley wrote: I need a translator for Chezinu's posts When you return, I see you are on Zyrre, can you give opinions on Palmar (just do your best with or without marv's arguments seeing as he called you to them???)/Noon? | ||
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Doing it again without a major reframed argument or any additional information from Palmar himself is useless - others makes sense relative to the leading wagons or if he has a compelling case on anyone. He didn't have one against me so... | ||
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On February 06 2016 02:59 Zyrre wrote: Noonian, care to explain why you switched me from "guaranteed town" to null or less in two posts? | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:26 nooniansoong wrote: i read your filter someone and thought about stuff. also i was originally thinking your first post about no pressure was townie. but then i found a case against you that pointed out that if you were happy to be town, why no early activity? and that point made it seem more likely that your first post wasn't genuine. and marv called me on drugs and all which I'm not anymore. Im sober now. BUt it made me be like damn maybe he's right, maybe my points actually don't hold that much weight. So I thought them over again and your reads didn't really seem that organic or nuanced. Same question I said to Rels I will say to you, I pointed out a caveat - he did not have time to play the game most of the cycle. Tell me if that adjusts your expectations. He even stated that in his list post (more or less). | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:26 Onegu wrote: So I took meds. And now have to help my mom with something. Need to put my vote somewhere for now. ##Vote JAT Regardless of your alignment, this is pathetic from you. | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:29 disformation wrote: Yeah, Zyrre feels like exactly the guy scum wants to push in this situation. (If he is town) Which is making me hesitant about that guy, too. I'm seeing enough valid caveats and I feel he should be left to whatever investigatives we have for that reason. Either that or engage him now. One of the two until end of cycle. | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:29 nooniansoong wrote: are you his lover or are you related? i dont see how you would know otherwise. he had time to write that one liner so at least he had some time. I mean yes it's totally possible he was busy and all but it's just something that inches his alignment towards the scum side even though it's not a grand slam. So let me articulate this better to use an example from his post One point against him was how he took the ritoky thing out of context. He ignored the early game play and focused more on the mid cycle. Having enough time to read that one-liner doesn't equate to having enough time to read the thread, read filters in context and then draw a more informed conclusion. How do I know this? I felt I had better reads/understanding cases when I had the 5 hours I did early this morning to read through a shittonne of filters, weed out some people, etc. Do you understand now what I'm trying to say? | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:31 nooniansoong wrote: how dare you judge. you can want to lynch someone for low activity, but when you call them pathetic that is an insult to yourself by overvaluing the importance of this game compared to real life. Yes, I felt that was bit harsh from myself once I posted it. Apologies. | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:30 disformation wrote: Yo, NM how confident are you really in your Palmar meta thing? Very. | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:40 disformation wrote: It really really really baffles me how you can say that that after posting: Are you sure you are town? Consider when I made that statement. I had poor activity until latter half of the cycle, and have not/rarely interacted with him myself this cycle, so I have to use other criteria. It is what it is. Marv didn't even use meta in this case, he used his feels from this game. Realise there are multiple methods of scumhunting. I also had reasons to townread loads of other people as I weeded through filters last night. | ||
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I cannot necessarily control when I can play this game. So I adapt. | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:48 disformation wrote: Yeah, seems either Palmar or Zyrre should be the lynch today. Then vote Palmar. | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:53 Rels wrote: /discuss I feel that this kind of post is very hard to make for scum. What I meant by that was that people who are of either alignment can post RL excuses. He's not been in thread, so he won't have reads. Are you seeing something I am not? The pathetic part of the quote was a bit harsh on my end, I concede that. | ||
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On February 06 2016 04:58 Zyrre wrote: I really have no idea about noon, but at least he has posted some reads and is posting now. Rather neutral at the moment. I obviously dont know about Palmers meta, but I feel like his early statement: "This game is going to be painful because I'm going to obsess about finding the "superbia" mafia and never give anyone a townread ever." Seems like possible scum play. He has posted almost no suspicions, and if he doesnt townread anyone he can always jump on votes for whoever is getting lynched atm. I'm back. Can you elaborate further on the quality of the reads from both now that you've voted him? How about the players (ignore anyone you've already given a read on) on each of those wagons? Separately from this, can you also confirm how much forum mafia experience you have had besides the one themed game here? | ||
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On February 06 2016 05:08 disformation wrote: I also still kinda feel like he is lurking. I basically just mentioned that I would vote Zyrre or Palmar. NM convinces me to join the Palmar wagon. Zyrre comes out of nowhere joining Palmar, too. -.- I can see both scum and town motivations for his play right now. You've cited the scum motivation now can you see the town one? | ||
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On February 06 2016 06:10 disformation wrote: zyrre, boxer, ritoky, noon Tells me that apparently all the ppl are pretty with where their vote is or they do not care. Which makes me nervous. I asked Zyrre a question, maybe he's trying to analyse. ritoky is looking into a second wagon (there is a town motivation for this). Furthermore he stated his reasons for being content with the vote and he's still looking at a second wagon that I feel is also a good one. | ||
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On February 06 2016 06:10 disformation wrote: zyrre, boxer, ritoky, noon Tells me that apparently all the ppl are pretty with where their vote is or they do not care. Which makes me nervous. Also what about the people who are off wagon? | ||
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On February 06 2016 06:11 Chezinu wrote: ##unvote ##vote Zyrre Explain in your own words? | ||
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On February 06 2016 06:17 boxerfred wrote: If you really don't understand that I am not happy with a Palmar lynch, you're scum then disformation Why couldn't town feel the same way? Why is it exclusively scum? And what do you think about ritoky's arguments re: Koshi? (There are two no-voters) | ||
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On February 06 2016 06:18 justanothertownie wrote: Noon is off wagon. And I don't see ritoky really trying to get another wagon going at all. Koshi is not a realistic wagon and he knows that himself. Or which one are you talking about? Boxer is continuing to act extremely erratic and weird. Didn't mean just noon but most of the people off wagon, save maybe darthfoley. I mean Palmar's had his vote on you all cycle. And boxerfred, like I don't even. | ||
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Good lord. I don't see anything about you in his filter, I don't even. | ||
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On February 06 2016 06:27 Chezinu wrote: Define "this" I'm the most unreadable mafia player on teamliquid. As in the way you are playing now, but I see a few others have given explanations on how to interpret you a bit more. | ||
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I'd lynch Palmar and investigate Zyrre - current wagon also gives us information on the most likely towns. I don't know why Zyrre isn't back yet though with 1h but I'm not changing my vote. I am confident my vote is on mafia. | ||
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On February 06 2016 06:58 justanothertownie wrote: And why the fuck would "the best town player" allow his lynch so easily and wouldn't as mafia? Makes 0 sense. This. | ||
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On February 06 2016 07:13 darthfoley wrote: I am not even sure that Palmar is town. I just don't like the feel this vote has. Has there really been push back though? Ritoky faintly threw out the idea of a potential Koshi lynch, but that hasn't gone anywhere. Many people have brought up Zyrre as very suspicious and supremely shallow compared to some town games (albeit from a while ago), yet I was the only person to have voted on him until Kush switched recently. To be clear, I don't think the Palmar vote is the worst thing in the world, but 8 votes with no counter wagon indicates to me that either 1) He's town and mafia are pushing/seconding the narrative 2) He's mafia and his mafia team is bussing him D1 by either voting for him, or not really starting any other wagon... which seems very counterproductive as mafia. You aren't gonna get that much town cred if 10 people vote for him and he flips town, and you'll look sus if you just park your vote and give no input. On the other hand, I'm not sure that Zyrre has had one original thought all game. His entrance reads post seems super newbie mafia who skim thread, copy thread sentiment and add a few anecdotes here and there. Then he jumps on the Palmar train for meh reasoning that other people have already trotted out Not exclusively scummy. I'll repeat the same thing I same to Rels/disformation, there is a town motivation for it. I mentioned it earlier in the thread. Voting I understand can make people nervous but I trust most people on the wagon, I have a degree of townreads on everyone except VA and Zyrre. Also Darthfoley, the mafia motivation for bussing d1 is a load of cred you may not have had. The cred may be applied depending on how early or late the votes came in. Another town trait is knowing whom to sheep btw - ironically that's something even Palmar mentioned in his town games, so I digress. Anyhow, town doesn't care about cred (ego aside) they just want to find mafia. | ||
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On February 06 2016 07:34 Zyrre wrote: Cant a guy play some dota without getting lynched? Darth, I agree it seemed a bit odd with no pushback to Palmar. However now there is and some are voting for me instead. You say you want to lynch palmar day 2. Surely if he is this afk it would be easier to read me day2 to determine if I was mafia than if he keeps not posting? Could you answer my questions? I'll repost them for ease... | ||
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On February 06 2016 05:45 NocturneMage wrote: I'm back. Can you elaborate further on the quality of the reads from both now that you've voted him? How about the players (ignore anyone you've already given a read on) on each of those wagons? Separately from this, can you also confirm how much forum mafia experience you have had besides the one themed game here? | ||
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On February 06 2016 07:35 disformation wrote: yeah, was about to point out that ritoky gets to decide the lynch at this point. I'm reading him town so that's a good thing. | ||
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See it from our perspective if you are town, and if you are town, you probably should be dropping a few more reads. | ||
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On February 06 2016 07:38 justanothertownie wrote: The chance that Palmar keeps quiet day2 are next to 0. He either posts and is towny or he gets lynched. And in the extreme case of 0 posts and no vote he would be replaced. Unless of course he is mafia, kills the people who are suspicious of him before that and the rest starts derping. I know he wasn't close to the lynch in Outlaw day 1, but regarding how those suspicious of him died off... Just saying. And yeah the point is here, people know Palmar, but my fear is he is too good a player, let him off the hook like this... Damdred if you think both are mafia you should be voting Palmar honestly. Why would you think he wouldn't try to WIFOM if he should be so? | ||
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On February 06 2016 07:40 Damdred wrote: Psh I won't let palmar go this time Don't. This is my fear. Don't let him off the hook. | ||
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And Koshi's vote is way the hell more scummy, if not for the reasoning alone. Goddamnit. Yeah I've been suspicious of Koshi but come on guys. | ||
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I WILL SACRIFICE MYSELF IF HE IS TOWN!!!!!!! | ||
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On February 06 2016 08:14 marvellosity wrote: Bleh. Came to check lynch. If that was palmers only post we got free mafia at least That is literally all he did. | ||
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On February 06 2016 08:14 Rels wrote: No. He's dead whatever happen. He came back to the thread seconds before deadline to save himself while being AFK all day. He's 100% scum. 1000% Really wish people would have listened. | ||
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On February 06 2016 08:15 justanothertownie wrote: Because of this post and the weird last second push from ritoky/damdred and Kush earlier. Didn't feel right. Also I skimmed the Zyrre filter marv linked earlier and it really is night and day -.- And I gave a mitigating argument for that being night and day. | ||
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On February 07 2016 00:55 Koshi wrote: Kush/Palmar/Chez/x How are you getting a read on Chez either way? | ||
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On February 06 2016 21:16 boxerfred wrote: If I'd be productive and constructive, I'd note a suspicious absence of ritoky and I'd further analyse the votes. I'm totally with marv tbh regarding Palmar, he should be shot at night now. If he flips scum, we have a great chance to identify scummers among the trains. ritoky said he was at work and could not play terribly much closer to end of cycle. Same problem I had first half of day 1, I couldn't play, he couldn't play closer to end of cycle (which makes me more a dick for what I said to Onegu but I'm not disputing that either). Just saying. Excluding end of cycle where he dropped his vote on Palmar anyhow, I thought he was pretty towny most of the first half of day 1. And if it wasn't clear enough, I am on board that Palmar is effectively scum. | ||
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Any particular post? | ||
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About what? | ||
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On February 06 2016 17:01 boxerfred wrote: You think you're a cool kid because after three games of mafia, you go down the unreadable road, right? Lol. ##vote MoosyDoosy locked until you're dead. On February 06 2016 17:01 boxerfred wrote: No way I'll end up in a game with you again Not many like how he plays but this is poor form regardless. | ||
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so I'll start with boxerfred, my concern is he was back and forth without any rationale, just as someone else said, overall erratic and all over the place. I have never played with the guy so I have to see whether that's routine for him or not. It looks bad but aside from the first half of day 1 I don't recall offhand a stance on either Palmar or Zyrre, and whether he was sheeping a townread, so if neither are true then he does look really bad. Could scum fake that though....I'm not sure. It's one thing to fake an easy meta like being afk, but just to type all that gibberish. I would have to read day 1 again and double check progression. If there was lack of, then yeah he's not good at all. Noon is a tough nut to crack - he saw potential town tells in Zyrre and then said he did something that negated the read, and didn't feel there was enough to implicate Palmar, the latter I can understand if he's not played much with him, though he played with him in Outlaw but I'm not sure of the experience between those two. It's not necessarily scummy. I don't think his vote in of itself is faulty, but separate from the vote, his not wanting to play is just meh, and I cannot blame people for wanting to policy lynch him initially. I don't think there's anything wrong with filing him under the 50/50 column, and then lynching him via process of elimination in the late game if there's enough others who are towny - if an inv role redchecks him then of course, all the better. | ||
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On February 07 2016 02:38 MoosyDoosy wrote: There were some things about ritoky that ticked in my mind. I think it was concerning disfo. mMmmm....I'm also conflicted on Rels which is never ever a good thing. You mind elaborating? From last night when we were playing that pick a townie game or whatever it was, you townread me for the very same things that Rels and disformation scumread me for. So can you explain that and explain what else, - if any - makes Rels potentially scum? I really don't think he is. | ||
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You said you didn't trust ritoky middle of day 1 when we were playing that game, and I don't really think you answered my question at that time. What between ritoky and disformation looked suspicious to you? | ||
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On February 07 2016 02:55 MoosyDoosy wrote: Rels - I have a soul read situation with him that he knows as well. Every time in the past that I've been wary of him he's turned out to be Mafia. Every time I town read him immediately, he has been town. It has to do with how he sets himself up in the game. His opening made me wary. But I do agree with a lot of what he's been saying which is shit for me because logic > feelings from my experience in Mafia. Rels, I'm going to keep off of you for now, but that's on the basis you keep shitting townie rainbows. ritoky & disfo - Bear with me, things are foggy because I read quickly to catch up and play D2. There was a situation where ritoky pushed disfo and disfo made a shit case. I think NM and/or Palmar was implicated somewhere which should be interesting. Well here's the thing, for me for Rels - a key scum tell is him taking words/quotes/etc out of context. When he was pushing me day 1, he didn't see me logically and in most of my games I am able to get my arguments out in a logical manner. Here he didn't understand my early push on VA, quite frankly, no one did, and I saw his interactions with other people, and I didn't see any of those scum tells that makes me wary. Town Rels has a cleaner game IMO from what I see. as for the ritoky/disformation I cannot see how what you are saying makes EITHER of those two mafia. Disformation makes a shit case because (a) he cannot articulate himself well (b) he's confirmation biasing (which JAT basically confirmed near end of cycle) (c) he's mafia. Point is, disformation is not entirely scummy, and neither is ritoky for pushing in in that direction. And regardless of whom is implicated, me, Palmar, etc, I can't see how that winds back up at ritoky. Like this really isn't clear to me. At best you have pre-flip read here. | ||
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On February 07 2016 03:01 justanothertownie wrote: Some part of me hopes palmar is town. If only because if he is scum I played a perfect day1 just to throw it all away at the very last second. But I seriously wonder if a vigshot isn't better placed on Onegu, Moosy or some other unreadable guy who will make us waste a lynch on him regardless of his alignment anyways. Given how close the end of cycle wagons were I believe the mechanically correct decision is to vig shoot Palmar, should we have one. Compounded with his play, I feel it is best. | ||
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On February 07 2016 03:03 Koshi wrote: Just felt like he was pushing agenda when I read his posts, they seemed to be strategically and not random Chez. A look through his filter shows trolling of disformation which I felt wasn't alignment indicative because it's an unreadable player more or less trolling, townreading Noon, and then voting Zyrre, you could implicate him for the final decision, but like I said before I really have no idea how to actually read him. He didn't appear to be "pushing" anything, I asked him why Zyrre when he ninja voted and he just said "for Zyrre". Like I think the ninja vote makes Chez look bad, but I couldn't tell he was pushing anything. Like Chez wasn't screaming at people to vote Zyrre. Plus Noon said that as mafia Chez doesn't do anything. Chez said something about him and Noon being Jedi brothers (implied townread??) but IDK how that reflects agenda. Maybe some other Chez experts can weigh in. | ||
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On February 07 2016 09:16 disformation wrote: Yeah, I think that was marv. Might not have shot him for the WIFOM? Hmmmm... Scum might have accepted losing Palmar and tried to shoot ppl that were more dangerous for their other mates? Really getting into wifom land here though. Will try to work on a few tinfoils for both cases (town!Palmar and scum!Palmar) tomorrow, if the day is as dead as I fear it to be. meh....it could be wifom (what other choice do they have), it could be not, it could be a medic dodge, who knows. GGs JAT/ritoky/Damdred. My vote is on Palmar, and is staying on Palmar all cycle. Good night. | ||
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On February 07 2016 09:05 darthfoley wrote: oh right I'm silly. Misread the VC. I rescind my question. Is it really as simple as Palmar: kill these 3 good players who've been voting for me/on my ass. Is Palmar known for some Italian style vengeance? I just read ritoky's filter for Palmar mentions, and although he voted Palmar, he got on the wagon relatively late and did not seem particularly hardcore for it. Meh this all seems too clean. Maybe it is Just saw this. The answer to this is yes. In Outlaw, he was mafia, and 5 people that called him mafia, myself included, in that game, all died, IIRC, 2 on night 1, 2 on night 2 and I died night 4. I replaced into that game night 2 and didn't really get my shit together until day 4, which is why I didn't die early on. Now I'm off. | ||
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I don't know what you mean by this. | ||
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On February 07 2016 09:40 MoosyDoosy wrote: NM, spit some hot fire for me. It's late here. Tell me what you want to discuss and I'll touch on it in the morning. Silly Americans wanting us to play all night. Oh wait a minute now xD | ||
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disformation, I was townreading you and Rels. Where did you get the impression I was scumreading either of you? MoosyDoosy was scumreading or tentative on Rels and I know I had to explain to him why I thought Rels was town. Also if Palmar got modkilled, I would lynch Koshi. Reading up Rels appears to have some great points in his case in addition to what I mentioned day 1, and the lack of followup is very much like like felt. I couldn't articulate it well though, and I'd 1000% sheep that case. Not to mention if and as Palmar should flip scum, his vote saving Palmar prior to Damdred's switch is terrible. My scumreads are still as is and I still need to read into boxerfred a bit more. MoosyDoosy also said a few things in conversation that were a bit of a head scratcher - the solo vote doesn't make him any better. I'll flesh these out once I'm caught up in case I missed something. | ||
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On February 08 2016 03:08 disformation wrote: Also @NM: can you explain to me why you randomly decided to read old games from Koshi and Palmar? Wasn't random. Friday morning, I read Palmar's filter this game and same with Koshi's before I read other games. And the former especially in light of his performance in PYP and what I recall of Outlaw. That's why I tried to read more of his. Even at his most laziest there was Dark Tournament, which was a contrast to the games I read where he had either more solid town performances or where he wasn't accurate, more performances where he was invested or opinionated if that makes any sense. Additionally, I had zero interaction with Palmar, and the limited I had with Koshi wasn't very good or didn't leave me a good impression of him. I also had concerns about Koshi's lack of followup with ritoky and his reaction to me was just really meh. Also as for marv, when I originally read his filter I liked the pokes he made on Palmar and VA. Re: post-lynch, him falling in the same category where he switches to Zyrre last minute doesn't make him scum, esp when he looked at both players - JAT did the same thing. | ||
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On February 08 2016 03:13 Koshi wrote: Don't make it NM. ????? | ||
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On February 08 2016 00:59 disformation wrote: Looking through VA's filter. I like that he was able to step back and reevaluate NM. I also like a few other posts and his tone. Didn't really like the suggestion for a NVT to claim. There are also not that many reads in his filter imo. Would like him to put out a few more of those. There were a few things I didn't like about VA which I discussed, and he's not done much to show he's town (the lynch Palmar thing after the day 1 lynch where he's effectively claimed scum won't say much). Additionally, if Palmar is scum, his vote on Palmar is actually bad - it screams bus city for 3 reasons. (1) it was inorganic (2) it was well after concerns about Palmar had been expressed (pokes particularly by Marv early in the game I'm sure were before this) (3) it was done at a time where he needed town cred (mafia motivation is to bus for cred), because at that time, only Damdred was townreading him, or heck it might have even been before that. ritoky and I were scumreading VA to some various degree, and I don't think most of this game had a read on VA when they were asked to eval VA v myself VA prior to getting on Palmar's wagon was pushing me and when he couldn't do that, he dropped the scumread, Additionally when I pushed him further earlier on, he got very defensive. Quotes: On February 06 2016 03:10 VayneAuthority wrote: has the nocturnemage ever heard of sleep by any chance? Of course I wasn't around for 250+ posts when I'm sleeping. I really can't understand your constant antagonizing, making a case on me is fine but these constant asinine nitpicks are insane. I really don't understand. On February 06 2016 03:58 VayneAuthority wrote: The only thing truly scummy about NM disform is how he is a huge hypocrite. He is constantly berating me/scumreading me for things and then ignores anything that would have to make him justify it. Really annoying playstyle that makes it impossible to read him. Especially the problem with the above is that the "sleep" explanation doesn't cover for his push on me earlier and his not mentioning Palmar at that time. It doesn't answer the concern in the least. Now admittedly at this point in time, the vote thing is unflipped association, but if Palmar flips mafia, then he looks really bad despite voting Palmar. | ||
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On February 08 2016 03:32 disformation wrote: Hmpf. I should probably stop being so paranoid. Nah, paranoid is good. Okay, looked at Palmar's DT filter. Way better than here. Not sure if I buy that interaction thing. Like you seem like a way more logical-finding-contradictions-in-filters type of player. How is koshi switching his votes different from jat and marv switching votes? Investment in respective wagons, which I'm pretty sure Rels touched on in his case. General voting analysis rule - the more investment someone has in a given wagon, the more likely they are to be town. | ||
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You should be aware by now how invested JAT/marv were in the Palmar wagons. BY CONTRAST, Koshi was not as invested in the Zyrre wagon (amount of time/rationale). Am I making sense here? I'm going to use the first part of Rels' case to show you what I mean. On February 08 2016 00:54 Rels wrote: This post got way bigger than I though, I'm trying my best to organize it. I don't like Koshi at all, he might very well be scum. Here is why: 1 D1 the only real thing he did was pushing kush + opposing Palmar's lynch. That's it. No read on anyone else, especially Zyrre. Like, I think this is the only post about Zyrre in his filter: Then: Well, he ended up voting Zurre with kush. | ||
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On February 08 2016 03:37 disformation wrote: I don't understand this. All three switched. So they aren't very invested by default. You don't understand what I mean by investment. Read my previous post just now, and even marvellosity explained to you that his pushing Palmar gave legitmacy (paraphrasing) to the wagon. It's a time and effort thing. | ||
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Consider that. He's townie to me, just on the wrong side of the fence for that. | ||
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On February 08 2016 03:40 disformation wrote: I don't think marv was invested at all. at all????? Are you not understanding what I mean by time and effort? | ||
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On February 07 2016 22:30 Chezinu wrote: interest list. Marv and boxer scum team would be interesting. Unless I missed it somewhere already, can you help me understand you a little better? Are you implying that marv and boxerfred are on a scumteam? Or are you saying it's unlikely? The word "interesting" only tells me that it's a point worth further investigation - and some people in this thread might not even read it as that from my experience. Are you implying something about their interactions? I know you trolled disformation earlier but how does that tie into this? (And if someone experienced with Chez, preferably a townread can help, that'd be great too.) | ||
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On February 08 2016 03:46 VayneAuthority wrote: 1. you are tunneling 2. you are fabricating whatever your point is, the only way that explanation makes sense is if you think I was lying about sleeping. The only way I would be able to join in the palmar discussion was if i was in the thread at the time. (1) Nope. I'm pretty sure you're mafia. Try again. (2) Nope again, you don't have to be in thread with Palmar to make that conclusion ahead of the time. Nor was my point even about you interacting with Palmar. Your reasoning for Palmar was this: On February 06 2016 00:38 VayneAuthority wrote: oh and ##vote: Palmar He is supposed to be my day 1 antithesis, the pinnacle of good day 1 play. where is that here Which is a point that is irrelevant to interactions. | ||
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Day 1 - read pages 39 through 41 On February 05 2016 14:16 MoosyDoosy wrote: (1) You leap into game using convoluted af reasoning to explain shizz which is NM style of play. But tone read seems genuine which means ur trying to solve game. So town. (2) At this point, there is a small group of people I don't try to read due to heavy bias. One of them is Damdred. On February 05 2016 14:22 NocturneMage wrote: Seeing as ritoky picked disformation and Rels as townreads, I'm going to ask you this next question. Both disformation and Rels have both scumread me at points for not being able to follow my train of thought. What does this make you think of them? Night 1/Day 2 On February 07 2016 02:38 MoosyDoosy wrote: There were some things about ritoky that ticked in my mind. I think it was concerning disfo. mMmmm....I'm also conflicted on Rels which is never ever a good thing. On February 07 2016 02:55 MoosyDoosy wrote: Rels - I have a soul read situation with him that he knows as well. Every time in the past that I've been wary of him he's turned out to be Mafia. Every time I town read him immediately, he has been town. It has to do with how he sets himself up in the game. His opening made me wary. But I do agree with a lot of what he's been saying which is shit for me because logic > feelings from my experience in Mafia. Rels, I'm going to keep off of you for now, but that's on the basis you keep shitting townie rainbows. ritoky & disfo - Bear with me, things are foggy because I read quickly to catch up and play D2. There was a situation where ritoky pushed disfo and disfo made a shit case. I think NM and/or Palmar was implicated somewhere which should be interesting. On February 07 2016 03:02 NocturneMage wrote: Well here's the thing, for me for Rels - a key scum tell is him taking words/quotes/etc out of context. When he was pushing me day 1, he didn't see me logically and in most of my games I am able to get my arguments out in a logical manner. Here he didn't understand my early push on VA, quite frankly, no one did, and I saw his interactions with other people, and I didn't see any of those scum tells that makes me wary. Town Rels has a cleaner game IMO from what I see. as for the ritoky/disformation I cannot see how what you are saying makes EITHER of those two mafia. Disformation makes a shit case because (a) he cannot articulate himself well (b) he's confirmation biasing (which JAT basically confirmed near end of cycle) (c) he's mafia. Point is, disformation is not entirely scummy, and neither is ritoky for pushing in in that direction. And regardless of whom is implicated, me, Palmar, etc, I can't see how that winds back up at ritoky. Like this really isn't clear to me. At best you have pre-flip read here. Can either of you - or anyone else if you wish - comment on these reads by MoosyDoosy here? Something feels off but I can't put my finger on it. His criteria for reading me is completely wrong, whether it's contrived is 50/50. I've only played with him twice. The thing with my questioning on day 1 if you read through page 42 I think is he eventually bailed when I talked to him as to why he was scumreading ritoky. It felt weird and "it's Day 1" doesn't cut it. Just answer the question and then leave. Rels especially his read on you, and especially how you scumread me for not being logical day 1 versus him townreading me day 1 for being convoluted. It's just weird. Also I told him there's no way his read circles back to ritoky as mafia. Also his following Day 2 was telling me to spit out fire - I'm assuming reads - but looking through his filter I think if anyone needs to spit out reads, I think it's him, quite frankly. He has marv/DF as town d1 and concerns with Rels. That's it. | ||
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On February 08 2016 05:29 MoosyDoosy wrote: I like your spicy post NM. )) So what about it? What are your thoughts on Rels now? What is this heuristic/tell you are using on Rels for? | ||
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On February 08 2016 05:30 boxerfred wrote: Why wouldn't you do this as mafia? Puts great light on you. I can think of a reason - if someone pushes too many of their scumbuddies and they are still alive, people will start to wonder why they are alive. Or what is the motivation for mafia to not kill someone who has killed 2+ scum on a 4-player scumteam. I played with bf only once, in newbie 14....he's relatively new right? | ||
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What do you think about Rels' case? | ||
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On February 08 2016 06:08 disformation wrote: other random thought I had about the night kills: aren't all 3 of them players that can lead/drive town into a decent direction? Damdred yes, given my experience with him in Fullmetal and Dark Tournament. JAT seemed like it here. Haven't played with him in any games I don't think. I have also never played with ritoky when he was town. Outlaw and Fullmetal he was scum in both games. I obsed Nutcracker though and I think he was town that game? I can't remember his play that game offhand but I think he was an early nightkill. | ||
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I'm thinking to read his newbie 16 games and Haunted Mansion games to see if "suboptimal town play" is a decent parallel to this game. I had reason to townread him day 1. I realise he was modkilled and not lynched but his filter might give me a better idea of how he plays. This game, just offhand, my concern is how he went back and forth between the wagons at the moment. If his town play is really bad like you say, then his latest spate of activity could purely be that, suboptimal. But when I'm back on a laptop I hopefully can get to that. It's hard to do this on a phone. | ||
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On February 08 2016 07:09 MoosyDoosy wrote: mMmmm i currently have no thoughts on Rels. This day is enough about Palmar that Rels has dropped off and there’s not enough for me to read him. This waits until N3/D3 where things should pick up. mMmmm...I'm interested in what you're aiming for D2 in general. Who are you looking into? What exactly are you trying to question? I don't find this believable or you haven't read the thread. Rels posted quite a bit earlier on Koshi and he pushed Koshi I believe. That's not the definition of falling off. He posted a massive case. | ||
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On February 08 2016 07:22 MoosyDoosy wrote: bruh, do you seriously expect my thought process to make sense? It did in Drams and it did in Fullmetal. Compared to those two games as town your gameplay if town here, Moosy, is well below par. Fullmetal was my last encounter with you. Your filter here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497023-newbie-student-mafia-xvii-fullmetal-edition?user=MoosyDoosy Is way the hell more useful, logical, and you had votes on scum I think all game. | ||
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(1) thoughts on Rels (2) thoughts on Rels case (3) updated reads on other players Go. | ||
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MoosyDoosy - town roleblocker - didn't know how to play his blue role. But still, 29 pages of filter through three cycles. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/494873-battle-of-the-drams-mafia?user=MoosyDoosy Look at how he pushes scum Rels in that game towards the end. Or his filter in general there, after day 1. | ||
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On February 08 2016 07:45 disformation wrote: Also @ NM please stop saying that you don't like meta when you are going to use it "all the time". xD Fair enough, but my interactions with MD have been limited and overall not a great impression so far. He's only had interactions with only two players who are still alive in the game, marv and myself. Follow the most recent exchange between us and you'll know what I mean. The only other criteria for MD is his vote day 1. Solo vote is always bad. | ||
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On October 06 2015 20:39 MoosyDoosy wrote: Funny thing is I already explained why I did what I did to Rels. And 85% of the stuff in Rels' "cases" are laughable. But he can keep on being bad. -pats on head- Just let me know when you're ready to actually start scumhunting Rels. And if you say there can't be two roleblockers, then I basically know you're claiming Mafia right now. On October 06 2015 20:47 MoosyDoosy wrote: lol stop misrepresenting my play Rels. If you think that's a defense of GB that's very laughable. That's actually one of the reasons why I had a scum read on you. I came into the thread saying the team was coolTL/GB off of a busing strat and you literally hard defended GB. Then for some reason you started pointing out scummy things about GB even after defending him. This was not me defending GB. This was me saying you looked scummy as fuck for all of a sudden switching your read on GB. And this is exactly why this is town!Rels. Only he can be so oblivious as to what's really going on between the lines and claim ridiculous stuff like this. On October 06 2015 21:36 MoosyDoosy wrote: rsoultin you're dumb. We still kill Shining here 100% On October 07 2015 00:05 MoosyDoosy wrote: because shining is scum and gb has to bus for some cred. Bah I missed the tunnelled fool part, you're right, but these are the quotes I was referring to among other things. Still I hope you see the contrast by going through his filter. | ||
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On February 08 2016 07:46 marvellosity wrote: i definitely think chez is on the mafia side of a coinflip, i've given a few reasons over the course of the game. I am annoyed by Chez's last post where he says his list of boxerfred/you/disformation is interesting. You said he was misapplying his own criteria earlier day 1, but as someone who has never played with him, do you mind clarifying this? | ||
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On February 08 2016 07:55 NocturneMage wrote: Bah I missed the tunnelled fool part, you're right, but these are the quotes I was referring to among other things. Still I hope you see the contrast by going through his filter. EBWOP - at Rels - it's also not just those quotes. Even in those he says he's bad and not much mafia, but if you take away nothing else, you can see he's trying to solve the game in there. And here he's just utterly directionless. | ||
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On February 08 2016 07:57 disformation wrote: Yeah, fair enough. I just really don't like that contradiction. Especially since you also did it in NSM 18. You should see the difference between my use of it here and my use of it in Newbie 18. You observed me closely enough as a cohost I think the difference should be obvious. Also Day 1, I gave you a valid reason that townies can use meta properly, and even me can do so. I can still make parallel points that I feel push discussion forward. If you think I'm scummy, just say why. | ||
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On February 08 2016 08:00 marvellosity wrote: So essentially there is this thing called the Chezinu rule. It basically goes that the first person in a game to throw suspicion on Chezinu for being trolly is mafia, and it's had a surprisingly high hitrate. In this game, disformation just asked Chezinu what he was talking about - he wasnt implying Chezinu was suspicious, but after Koshi voted disfo, Chezinu voted him on the basis of his rule. So essentially he shouldn't have been doing that. And I didn't like that his reason was that he was following Koshi. And yea that list was silly. it's not helpful. it's not even trying to be helpful veiled in his usual stories. Ah okay, I see what you mean now. Between that and the vote on Zyrre - I asked him why he was voting Zyrre and he gave me what I felt was a nonsensical answer. It wasn't even anything like "I think Palmar is town" it was "for Zyrre". | ||
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On February 06 2016 06:38 Chezinu wrote: I don't like it when Palmar dies... it's makes me sad. On February 06 2016 06:46 Chezinu wrote: Never forget: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/359836-normal-mini-mafia-iii?page=49#978 I love you Palmar. These quotes of Chezinu were right before and after the flip. I could TRY and imply what he was trying to do in the first post? I think the final quote that list of names I think he picked from his mafia game that ritoky, me and MD wre playing last night. He was supposed to pick his TRs and then picks both Palmar and Zyrre from that game and then votes Zyrre. It's still confusing as hell sort of because in that game, he admitted he picked the names randomly but if he's trolling....god he's just confusing as hell. | ||
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Lack of reads isn't assuring atm though, and a few other little things. | ||
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On February 08 2016 07:22 MoosyDoosy wrote: bruh, do you seriously expect my thought process to make sense? On February 08 2016 07:40 NocturneMage wrote: That said Moosy - (1) thoughts on Rels (2) thoughts on Rels case (3) updated reads on other players Go. It's day 2 now, which means you can stop dodging questions like you did day 1. (not to mention I think disformation also wanted reads from you) | ||
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On February 08 2016 08:42 MoosyDoosy wrote: mMmmm...have you read my christmas game yet? ????????? You mean Nutcracker? You didn't play in that game? | ||
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On February 09 2016 00:32 VayneAuthority wrote: both of those are completely legit and possible if the scumteam isnt superlurk squad. I still don't have a 100% tr on koshi but leaning town. its possible because of how the game played out + we have a lot of good players he doesnt feel the need to do much? i dont know honestly. All i can remember is him tunneling you and doesn't seem super cocky on any reads besides that which isnt normal. If palmar is scum though, he hard defended him since the beginning when he didnt really have to and made himself look super bad for basically no reason. Maybe I should look more at what he has done to help town though because I dont think its been much As for NM, its possible he is going for a BH style scum play but I honestly just started ignoring him. If you read his posts in depth they are actually just long walls of texts of nothing again recently that dont mean anything and are borderline english. The bolded is a very bad reason to townread/townlean anyone let alone a player of (from what I understand) Koshi's calibre. Rels had probably the best argument as for why Koshi is likely scum. To the points you have (bolded), he pointed out that a lot of Koshi's reads went nowhere, a common scum trait. Day 1 it was the same thing I pointed out with how he approached reads on ritoky and Damdred. That read is actually pretty terrible. | ||
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On February 09 2016 00:49 VayneAuthority wrote: Then explain to me why he is trying to ride this palmar cred into the sunset and then some one that voted BEFORE him is scummy and im not even trying to get any palmar cred, i literally dont give a shit. I just vote what I think and thats it like ive always done. And then when you try to reason with him he just says "no, you're stupid" and leaves. If that's town I really can't see myself ever getting along with him. Not really. I made a few points as to why I think your vote is scummy. I also showed other points unrelated to the Palmar vote early on day 1 where I think you could be scum. It's not just the vote honestly. The order of the votes doesn't matter. I explained twice now why I felt your vote was inorganic. And when I looked at the votes it's not impossible to conceive that one of the four scum members couldn't have been on Palmar's wagon. I had been townreading everyone on the wagon except you and Zyrre. I don't think 3+ members of a 4-man scumteam would be all on the Zyrre wagon. | ||
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On February 09 2016 00:54 Rels wrote: Like, this comment is aggressive for nothing. What part? Do you think it's reasonable to townread Koshi for "how the game played out and we have a lot of good players he doesn't feel the need to do much?" That is the part I was pointing out as a poor read. I usually bold things like that. | ||
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(1) There was no mention of Palmar anywhere in your filter prior to your vote. Marv had been probing Palmar quite a bit and voted 5 hours prior to your vote. (2) AFAIK, you were not sheeping a townread or anything like that. The basis for your vote was unrelated to the interactions with marv/Palmar/etc. Just because you voted before me doesn't make you any more townier. To be fair, I could not play most of the first half of day 1, and because I was not present in thread with Palmar, I had to use different criteria to evaluate him (as opposed to my interactions, of course there were none). Even then my case on Palmar was roughly 3 hours before marv's vote on Palmar. + Show Spoiler [Focus on timestamps] + On February 05 2016 15:45 NocturneMage wrote: Why I have a bad feeling Palmar could be mafia Palmar - read the following games for a compare/contrast: Tropical Storm, Down Under 3, Generic Boring. - In Generic Boring, he was dead wrong everywhere but he was assertive as all hell, was n1ed - Tropical Storm, looks like one right read, one wrong one (Damdred/rsoultin) but here, he goes pushing rsoultin on voting record, and is adamant he knew when to drop a townread on someone/knowing whom to sheep, not seeing that here. Important because a number of people in reading this thread are saying "game is hard" to some extent. They all can't be mafia. A cursory look through Palmar's filter - no strong town reads (i.e. I would sheep so and so) - Down Under 3 - Here, another example of one of his "absolutist" posts. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/490661-mini-mafia-down-under-3?page=52#1026 Checking OP, all but one of these are wrong. Note: I purposely ignored PYP because a) it was a themed game b) multiple mafia teams The big contrast for me is tone. I'm seeing a lot of conditionals in this game (i.e. bf might be mafia), and a lot of absolutes in the above three games. Like he's so sure of himself even when he's wrong. The one thing I notice is his main involvement with JAT/marv/Koshi - two of which I'm townreading. Leads into the big contrast is his normal meta of lynching the inactives, the scummy players, etc. I'm looking for a push or even a trifle of anything against the sheer number of lower content players or even (almost universally?) scumread/discussed myself. Nothing. From Tropical Storm - and I know he applied this in PYP Finally I re-read his Outlaw Mafia filter for day 1 to refresh his day 1 scum play (go to his filter - read pages 1-3, day 1 ends at page 3) - and I'll be honest - his game so far here is a lot closer to his Day 1 play in Outlaw. I think people should read it - there's a lot of missing town tells that were present in the three games I discussed above. On February 05 2016 20:01 marvellosity wrote: ##unvote ##Vote Palmar First mention of Palmar in your filter - On February 06 2016 00:38 VayneAuthority wrote: oh and ##vote: Palmar He is supposed to be my day 1 antithesis, the pinnacle of good day 1 play. where is that here On February 06 2016 00:40 VayneAuthority wrote: ##vote palmar That's the difference between my vote, and yours. Even though I didn't place the vote until after yours, you had zero mention of Palmar contentwise. | ||
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On February 09 2016 00:49 VayneAuthority wrote: Then explain to me why he is trying to ride this palmar cred into the sunset and then some one that voted BEFORE him is scummy and im not even trying to get any palmar cred, i literally dont give a shit. I just vote what I think and thats it like ive always done. And then when you try to reason with him he just says "no, you're stupid" and leaves. If that's town I really can't see myself ever getting along with him. The "Riding cred into the sunset" implies that I'm scum from your point of view. The "someone that voted before him is scummy and I'm not even trying to get any Palmar cred" is an implication for yourself that you are either town or more town than I am. | ||
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between the two solo voters, MoosyDoosy is more likely mafia than Onegu. it isn't super likely a scumteam would have 2/4 off wagon, even so look at other attributes. onegu there is absolutely zero indicative information either way. MoosyDoosy could be scum because: (1) repeated question dodging/not giving reads when requested (at least 3 occasions I've counted) - has bailed on me twice when questions have been asked directly of him, once day 1 and once early day 2 (2) reasons for scumreading/not trusting ritoky day 1 in context were extremely murky, vague and evasive (3) even if Rels verified that MD's meta read on him was correct, he also townread me a bit too easily. namely that I was town for being illogical/convoluted, whereas disformation and Rels scumread me for the exact same thing. pretty sure now that read was contrived. (4) Day 2 he stated that Rels' activity dropped off when the opposite was true - he was pushing Koshi. Instead of giving a read on Rels, Moosy gave another evasive answer (post 1854) (5) bottom of page 95, I pressed him for a read on Rels AGAIN. He gave another deflective answer AGAIN. (post 1898) Nothing after that after I had to go to bed. his "dumbtelling" is very easy to fake as mafia, and it's been a known fact since Fullmetal. I would use other criteria (less fake-able) to ensure he's town if he somehow is. I will expand on these points with quotes when I'm back on a laptop if I need to but references should be obvious. | ||
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On February 09 2016 03:02 NocturneMage wrote: at disformation between the two solo voters, MoosyDoosy is more likely mafia than Onegu. it isn't super likely a scumteam would have 2/4 off wagon, even so look at other attributes. onegu there is absolutely zero indicative information either way. MoosyDoosy could be scum because: (1) repeated question dodging/not giving reads when requested (at least 3 occasions I've counted) - has bailed on me twice when questions have been asked directly of him, once day 1 and once early day 2 (2) reasons for scumreading/not trusting ritoky day 1 in context were extremely murky, vague and evasive (3) even if Rels verified that MD's meta read on him was correct, he also townread me a bit too easily. namely that I was town for being illogical/convoluted, whereas disformation and Rels scumread me for the exact same thing. pretty sure now that read was contrived. (4) Day 2 he stated that Rels' activity dropped off when the opposite was true - he was pushing Koshi. Instead of giving a read on Rels, Moosy gave another evasive answer (post 1854) (5) bottom of page 95, I pressed him for a read on Rels AGAIN. He gave another deflective answer AGAIN. (post 1898) Nothing after that after I had to go to bed. his "dumbtelling" is very easy to fake as mafia, and it's been a known fact since Fullmetal. I would use other criteria (less fake-able) to ensure he's town if he somehow is. I will expand on these points with quotes when I'm back on a laptop if I need to but references should be obvious. Onegu is completely null, but the above there is some information to go off of, and it's sure not townie IMO. For point (4) to see it clearer, you have to read what Rels was doing, but that's the gist of that point. | ||
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Koshi is the next lynch 100%. | ||
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On February 09 2016 08:36 MoosyDoosy wrote: aight I am caught up. My reads are: Rels marv NocturneMage darthfoley disfo Chezinu Onegu boxerfred noon Vayne Koshi On February 09 2016 08:42 MoosyDoosy wrote: Town Circle - Rels town from D2 although I had my suspicion earlier so I would not be surprised if he is unexpectedly Mafia. But I will go logic > feel for now. - marv is active lol - NM is doing his convoluted way of collecting reads lean on green - darthfoley looks good, tbh don't remember him much, townread him early and forgot about him. may look into later. - disformation looks like his waffle king town but i am never sure about him. I will check his mafia game I think. Lol wtf idek - Chezinu is an enigma, but he plays games so that is cool. - Onegu is an enigma, but he does not play games so he is lower than Chezinu. People to Look Into: - boxerfred was bad EoD and his anger was definitely misplaced. Some of his reads were also very bad. - noon had some scummy posts from a scum mindset which I'm surprised no one seemed to have mentioned much. - I scumread him for D1 stuff but idk if he looks better now. Will have to look into again. - tbh i don't really know how I feel about Koshi but it looks like everyone is scum reading him so I will look into him again. Is the bolded in reference to VA given the way you structured this list? Because you picked VA out of that "pick a townie" game, you didn't actually scumread him per se. Anyone who reads the context of that game knows the remaining names are partially based on others' townreads, even if you trust the people as town that you are playing with. | ||
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darth's day 1 play seemed fine to me, he was on the wrong side of the fence, but he seemed towny day 1. played with LS only once in Dark Tournament but I had a terrible time reading him that game, he was town that game, but I was hard scumreading him all game, so he's probably a player that I'll give time to see how he fleshes out. at this point in time I agree with whoever said moosy would make a great check. will return sometime later today. | ||
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On February 06 2016 08:12 Half the Sky wrote: Final Day 1 Vote Count Zyrre (8): darthfoley, nooniansoong, Chezinu, boxerfred, marvellosity, Palmar (7): justanothertownie (1): VayneAuthority (1):MoosyDoosy nooniansoong (0): NocturneMage (0), ritoky (0): Onegu (0):, Disformation (0): MoosyDoosy (0): Here is your VCA (spoilered for brevity) + Show Spoiler [Your vote analysis] + On February 09 2016 22:41 boxerfred wrote: So here is what happened D1: Zyrre (8): darthfoley, nooniansoong, Chezinu, boxerfred, marvellosity, Koshi, justanothertownie, Palmar Palmar (7): VayneAuthority, NocturneMage, Rels, disformation, Zyrre, ritoky, Damdred justanothertownie (1): VayneAuthority (1): MoosyDoosy Koshi is currently scum read by some persons. He went late Zyrre. He put his vote on Zyrre when it was 6-6 split between Palmar and Zyrre, and he does it rather late: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/503495-star-wars-the-mafia-awaken-voting-thread?page=3#48 Roughly 20 minutes before deadline. The situation we're in is that Palmar is on the very edge of being lynched. He is the Godfather, yet he is afk - a big scum role that can confuse town really hard (remember - Finncop works not like the standard cop!) would be a huge loss D1. Koshi seems to not care too much for this game D1. His reads are meager, he's not pushing anyone too hard, he feels wishywashy. But then it comes to his vote: initially, he forgets the "##unvote", then he corrects it, writing his vote in the correct way. However, it doesn't seem to be enough for him: Why is that so important, given that the previous post was absolutely correct? It's tiny, yep, and might not be alignment indicative, but I can see a nervous close-to-deadline-with-GF-close-to-being-lynched scum!Koshi acting nervous. That would bring us to: Zyrre (8): darthfoley, nooniansoong, Chezinu, boxerfred, marvellosity, Koshi, justanothertownie, Palmar Palmar (7): VayneAuthority, NocturneMage, Rels, disformation, Zyrre, ritoky, Damdred justanothertownie (1): VayneAuthority (1): MoosyDoosy Chez' vote on Zyrre would also make sense as scum. He said EoD2 after the Palmar lynch that he originally wanted to see Palmar dead D1 already - but he didn't vote him. marvellosity's switch feels weird to me but yeah...not gonna put the tinfoil hat back on again, he was the one to initiate the whole Palmar thingy. Rels feels townie to me. He's active and eager to do stuff, but the biggest thing is his genuine reaction to the LS replacement. On second thought though I'm not sure if that really was an alignment indicative dumbtell. I'd take it as that if LS would flip red, I'd lock Rels as town then. But - I do not know about LS' alignment, so yeah. Head and heart tell me though that Rels is town. disformation feels to me like he is playing a weak town game. He doesn't dare to push people, although he picks stuff every now and then. I wish he'd actually push some people, drop some committed reads, instead of just staying in his comfort zone. He's either a townie afraid to appear bad or a scum guy playing a very soft, careful game. His D1 felt very townie to me, but I think he got away with my town read too easy. However he ended up voting the Palmar train and went through with that - I don't think scum!disformation would have the guts for such a bus. So I'll paint him green here, too. VayneAuthority's activity level feels similar to what I learnt of him in other games. Town lean at this point, but not enough to paint him green in the PoE-kind-of-VCA I'm currently doing here. I paint him green because he was early on the Palmar wagon and did not leave at any point. This is not a 100% town read - but I want to simplify things. boxerfred is town, I know that. Gonna add the colours.. Zyrre (8): darthfoley, nooniansoong, Chezinu, boxerfred, marvellosity, Koshi, justanothertownie, Palmar Palmar (7): VayneAuthority, NocturneMage, Rels, disformation, Zyrre, ritoky, Damdred justanothertownie (1): Onegu VayneAuthority (1): MoosyDoosy nooniansong was scumread by me D1. I don't understand exactly why people like marv (?) started to townread him and I would really like to get an explanation on that from the guys who townread him. If he's scum, his vote was safe and sound on Zyrre. A solid no-risk-scum-play at D1. darthfoley really dropped off in activity. At least that's how I feel like. I need to filter-dive here and I'm glad for anyone dropping reads on those two guys. NocturneMage - can't drop a read, didn't look into yet. Gotta do this though to at least gain some impression. Only impression I have is from D1 where NM fought VA, and I'm not sure how to judge that. Last, but not least: MoosyDoosy. Voting outside both trains feels weird. But I think this is rather town indicative than scum indicative. The wagons were close, and the Zyrre lynch happened rather last minute. If he was scum with Palmar, I'm sure he'd have switched earlier - a last second switch would've put a bad light on him, especially given that there was no guarantee that Palmar would survive the night. I want to focus on a few things. First question - the read on Moosy - I don't quite understand this. MoosyDoosy. Voting outside both trains feels weird. But I think this is rather town indicative than scum indicative. The wagons were close, and the Zyrre lynch happened rather last minute. If he was scum with Palmar, I'm sure he'd have switched earlier - a last second switch would've put a bad light on him, especially given that there was no guarantee that Palmar would survive the night. IIRC, Moosy was entirely afk or nearly entirely AFK for end of cycle. His only vote came roughly 19 hours before the end when I was playing the "pick a townie" game with him in the middle of the night (our time). It was on VA, and he never pushed that vote. He just threw it down and left (quotes below, or read his filter) He placed his vote down on VA and never moved it (if you can see HTS votecount with all the cancelled votes), and was completely AFK so regardless of Palmar's alignment the vote looks poor because he escapes accountability altogether. This was his vote http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/503437-star-wars-the-mafia-awaken?page=40#791 This was his FINAL post before end of cycle about 18h before end of cycle: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/503437-star-wars-the-mafia-awaken?page=42#838 This was his first post ~1h AFTER the lynch http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/503437-star-wars-the-mafia-awaken?page=73#1443 Here's the question - now knowing or possibly realising that Moosy was severely AFK and his non-push of his own vote, does this make him any more or less town to you? | ||
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On February 09 2016 23:17 boxerfred wrote: I'll be out just now but I'll be back before EoD. Have an appointment a 6pm, gonna be online at roughly 8pm or so. Get back to post 2278 if/when you can, I'm going through your filter and a few others' at the moment. everyone else: I'm willing to buy into the general sentiment that scum Koshi pushing Noon is likely meaning Noon is town, but I'll run through the filter just to be sure... | ||
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I also called out VA's poor townread on Koshi, let me show you his reaction to that. You might have missed it earlier. I can understand why people wouldn't scumread him though, he was on the Palmar train and nothing is a so-called slam dunk argument on him, but there are several "little things" that add up as I was going through his filter Day 1. | ||
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On February 09 2016 00:50 VayneAuthority wrote: oh here he is to pop into the thread call me scum and leave again and call me stupid and fuck my wife and then leave ^^ just in time On February 09 2016 01:44 VayneAuthority wrote: You are putting words in my mouth. I haven't once tried to leverage being not on the zyrre wagon as something that I shouldnt be lynched for, which is what you implied. Anyways go ahead and find me those games since you like using meta so much. its the crux of your argument that i wasnt invested in the lynch, should be easy to find games where I am right? Tell me what you think of those reactions. Also day 1, look at the way he drops his scumread on me and then raises it again - it seems very much with the concern that "he's unsure of whom to push". + Show Spoiler + On February 04 2016 13:03 VayneAuthority wrote: nocturnemage probably scum, that post is str8 up garbage. i have to check his past games I guess On February 04 2016 13:31 VayneAuthority wrote: well jokes aside I will give you space for now, apparently you are good as town so no reason to day 1 lynch you I have never played with VA, so how would he know that "apparently I am good as town"? On February 05 2016 00:22 VayneAuthority wrote: you are really nitpicking rels, it is highly unlikely JAT is scum here. can whoever is here look at nocturnemage? I cant believe he never posted again zZ The above quote is a bit ironic/hypocritical considered he said that I was nitpicking him and then he makes a huge deal about the "sleep" comments. Additional evidence against him on that same point Noon - read his comments/filter about boxerfred and darthfoley. His comments on boxerfred go both ways before he defends him, and then his attacks on Darthfoley go NOWHERE. It's very hard for me to articulate, the best way of catching this is to read his filter. | ||
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boxerfred, the second sentence is what you call hedging, which is mafia indicative. "I don't know what to make of him yet." is a noncommittal statement - not wanting to take sides. Granted in that quote alone, there is a possible town motivation, that he can be town being unsure, but mafia can say things like this and wait to see where thread sentiment goes. | ||
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On February 09 2016 23:42 marvellosity wrote: I quite like what kush wrote about VA, tbh. +1 I really really think people need to take a harder look at VA. | ||
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On February 09 2016 23:45 marvellosity wrote: Seems to me maybe it's something like: Palmar/Koshi Chezinu/VA/boxerfred then a smattering of darth and moosey and LS Regarding Chezinu - On February 09 2016 08:10 Chezinu wrote: Guys, I would like to say that it was a honor to help form a second wagon on Day 1 to aid in the detection of mafia scum. I was secretly hoping Palmar would have died Day 1 but I couldn't vote for Palmar cause I likes him. This was also an opportunity to gain more information. We are doing great guys! What do people think about this quote? It might be the only readable thing I can find on this guy. If Palmar flipped vig, I think Chezinu would look REALLLLLLLLLLLLLYYYYYY bad. I can see the "gain more information" coming from town here. But why didn't he say it before the day 1 lynch? I don't understand. I have no idea what is in bounds or out of bounds for this guy as town, so people who know him better, help me out... The only other thing I can say is, that this guy at least day 1 wasn't playing to survive, but that is probably also weak at best. In fact, he's not really pushing back as we're all been discussing him as mafia. There's no sense of urgency to survive. IDK. (Unless he plays like this as scum too????) | ||
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On February 09 2016 23:31 boxerfred wrote: Can you summarize in like a bullet list why that is? I'd sheep you for your Palmar stuff from D1 that I just discovered. And keep in mind that darthfoley is currently under everyone's radar. Dunno how much I like that. Gah, I have to run and I'm probably out until 18/19 GMT. So here are all the points articulated as to why VayneAuthority is mafia (1) Day 1, he focused on me and only me, no other reads - Noon and Darthfoley do a better job of articulating this than I do to be quite honest. + Show Spoiler [Day 1, post 812 in my filter] + Possible scum VayneAuthority - I am going to do the same thing as I did with Rels and deliberately ignore any interactions with myself. Don't ever recall playing with this guy. But going through his filter, I am wondering if some of the little things are adding up here. - He calls Rels nitpitcky defending JAT. No conclusion on Rels one way or another. (post 508) - Then somewhere in the filter he says he's trying to improve my day 1....a bit interesting when JAT questions him on the named VT thing. He says he wants the lazy way out on day 1. - On that point, from VA, zero other town reads, or should I say zero town reads, period, and I am at present the only scum read. (The difference between him and Noon, for the people that say Noon has zero reads is that he's made a point of deliberately not trying to play, and VA is trying to play but I digress). This begs the question, should town proceed to mislynch me, where does he go from there? - speaking of which, he made a comment on using the named VT thing as a bait. But Rels asked me about this, (even if he said it was a reaction test of sorts after the fact) so here's my honest opinion on it. I am sceptical here that this is possibly (let alone exclusively) town - the objective should be to solve the game, thinking it through the greatest threat to mafia are the ones who try and do that. If they have blue abilities to get even more information, great. Just play the game and keep mafia guessing, no need to default/give them extra kp like that. Hypotehtical situation, say if for some reason other blues are NKed early because they are game-solvers/threats/etc (many reasons people can be shot). Say scum incorrectly blue read someone. Shot missed. Named VT claims subsequently. Just saying. Good play can narrow down the lynch pool for scum, and I don't think giving extra kp is the way to do it. Some people tend to solve better late game for instance. Just play the game and ignore mechanics for the purposes of that argument. - Marv calling out the reaction test and the purpose after the fact is another interesting point. These were the little things I had issues with VA on. (2) The vote on Palmar is suspect given his timing and explanation - see spoilers again. + Show Spoiler [all quotes/interactions] + On February 08 2016 03:33 NocturneMage wrote: There were a few things I didn't like about VA which I discussed, and he's not done much to show he's town (the lynch Palmar thing after the day 1 lynch where he's effectively claimed scum won't say much). Additionally, if Palmar is scum, his vote on Palmar is actually bad - it screams bus city for 3 reasons. (1) it was inorganic (2) it was well after concerns about Palmar had been expressed (pokes particularly by Marv early in the game I'm sure were before this) (3) it was done at a time where he needed town cred (mafia motivation is to bus for cred), because at that time, only Damdred was townreading him, or heck it might have even been before that. ritoky and I were scumreading VA to some various degree, and I don't think most of this game had a read on VA when they were asked to eval VA v myself VA prior to getting on Palmar's wagon was pushing me and when he couldn't do that, he dropped the scumread, Additionally when I pushed him further earlier on, he got very defensive. Quotes: Especially the problem with the above is that the "sleep" explanation doesn't cover for his push on me earlier and his not mentioning Palmar at that time. It doesn't answer the concern in the least. Now admittedly at this point in time, the vote thing is unflipped association, but if Palmar flips mafia, then he looks really bad despite voting Palmar. VA's reaction - On February 08 2016 03:40 VayneAuthority wrote: dam dude you are even worse then I thought. Thinking I am lying about sleeping, that is really reaching. Especially when the reason for me being mafia would make you mafia by proxy, pretty faulty reasoning. And I push him further on the matter + Show Spoiler + On February 09 2016 01:24 NocturneMage wrote: Trfel told me something valuable in the Fullmetal postgame - it's not just the timing of your vote that counts - it's also the content and your involvement related to the vote. And on your (VA) end it was pretty minimal. (1) There was no mention of Palmar anywhere in your filter prior to your vote. Marv had been probing Palmar quite a bit and voted 5 hours prior to your vote. (2) AFAIK, you were not sheeping a townread or anything like that. The basis for your vote was unrelated to the interactions with marv/Palmar/etc. Just because you voted before me doesn't make you any more townier. To be fair, I could not play most of the first half of day 1, and because I was not present in thread with Palmar, I had to use different criteria to evaluate him (as opposed to my interactions, of course there were none). Even then my case on Palmar was roughly 3 hours before marv's vote on Palmar. + Show Spoiler [Focus on timestamps] + On February 05 2016 15:45 NocturneMage wrote: Why I have a bad feeling Palmar could be mafia Palmar - read the following games for a compare/contrast: Tropical Storm, Down Under 3, Generic Boring. - In Generic Boring, he was dead wrong everywhere but he was assertive as all hell, was n1ed - Tropical Storm, looks like one right read, one wrong one (Damdred/rsoultin) but here, he goes pushing rsoultin on voting record, and is adamant he knew when to drop a townread on someone/knowing whom to sheep, not seeing that here. Important because a number of people in reading this thread are saying "game is hard" to some extent. They all can't be mafia. A cursory look through Palmar's filter - no strong town reads (i.e. I would sheep so and so) - Down Under 3 - Here, another example of one of his "absolutist" posts. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/490661-mini-mafia-down-under-3?page=52#1026 Checking OP, all but one of these are wrong. Note: I purposely ignored PYP because a) it was a themed game b) multiple mafia teams The big contrast for me is tone. I'm seeing a lot of conditionals in this game (i.e. bf might be mafia), and a lot of absolutes in the above three games. Like he's so sure of himself even when he's wrong. The one thing I notice is his main involvement with JAT/marv/Koshi - two of which I'm townreading. Leads into the big contrast is his normal meta of lynching the inactives, the scummy players, etc. I'm looking for a push or even a trifle of anything against the sheer number of lower content players or even (almost universally?) scumread/discussed myself. Nothing. From Tropical Storm - and I know he applied this in PYP Finally I re-read his Outlaw Mafia filter for day 1 to refresh his day 1 scum play (go to his filter - read pages 1-3, day 1 ends at page 3) - and I'll be honest - his game so far here is a lot closer to his Day 1 play in Outlaw. I think people should read it - there's a lot of missing town tells that were present in the three games I discussed above. On February 05 2016 20:01 marvellosity wrote: ##unvote ##Vote Palmar First mention of Palmar in your filter - On February 06 2016 00:38 VayneAuthority wrote: oh and ##vote: Palmar He is supposed to be my day 1 antithesis, the pinnacle of good day 1 play. where is that here On February 06 2016 00:40 VayneAuthority wrote: ##vote palmar That's the difference between my vote, and yours. Even though I didn't place the vote until after yours, you had zero mention of Palmar contentwise. On February 09 2016 01:36 VayneAuthority wrote: Find me games where I am invested in the lynch as either alignment, its null. That's my playstyle and many people here can attest to that. Conveniently you use meta for everyone else but not me, funny that is. Also you are putting words in my mouth, never said it makes me townie or anything. Literally could not care less about looking or being townie. I only play this game for one reason, to be right. (3) Lack of direction - again others have articulated this a lot better but here are some quotes in spoiler These are quotes that just don't go anywhere - and I mean ANYWHERE + Show Spoiler + On February 08 2016 23:38 VayneAuthority wrote: saving this post for later in my filter, suspicious and ill forget Nothing on disformation after this. On February 08 2016 03:46 VayneAuthority wrote: 1. you are tunneling 2. you are fabricating whatever your point is, the only way that explanation makes sense is if you think I was lying about sleeping. The only way I would be able to join in the palmar discussion was if i was in the thread at the time. On February 09 2016 00:34 VayneAuthority wrote: There was also the thing with NM where he says I am bussing palmar pre-emptively and at the same time paints me for things as scummy that would by proxy make him scummy! which is terrible hypocritical logic that is often used by scum. Quote on me day 2. He's been going back and forth, back and forth. (4) Remember that conversation from when he was discussing the blue roles and the named town? I think that's scummy and especially now when you take that point in conjunction with everything else. Really curious if marv can reflect on his post-hoc comment thing, it was something that jumped out to me day 1. + Show Spoiler + On February 05 2016 00:38 VayneAuthority wrote: interested in hearing people's thoughts on the named VT role. Should we have them claim here and lead the day 1 lynch, or should they just play as normal On February 05 2016 00:42 VayneAuthority wrote: well it would depend on who it is but gives a confirmed town basis. What is the cons? On February 05 2016 02:12 VayneAuthority wrote: I actually suggested the named VT thing with regards to the strongman shot, seems like good bait to have that killed rather then actually good role and i thought i played 2 normals since I came back but I guess I only played unoriginal mafia by artanis marv. On February 05 2016 02:23 VayneAuthority wrote: nah my motivation was to generate discussion/see if anyone tried to paint me as scummy for it, didnt really work. Only good players on atm. But I simply had that in my mind as an afterthought/clever play | ||
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On February 10 2016 00:03 boxerfred wrote: I think interpreting "dunno" as hedging is wrong here. I ask a question to bring attention to something. Maybe I should've said "I'm not too sure what to make of that quote so please give me your thoughts"? To the VA post itself: while the thought process of that quote appears rather towny to me, the last sentence in it ("if you believe... go for it") would be hedging, right? So this post becomes scum indicative. Do you think VA's post is scum indicative, NM? That sentence, yes, because it's a leading statement. He's not taking the stance himself, he's asking (whoever) to do it. | ||
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I pointed out a flaw in his VCA regarding Moosy that I felt might have been "sloppy" as they said. boxerfred's answer to my question on MoosyDoosy - him coming to a more reformed and believeable view might be indicative of this. He considered both angles. so it's quite possible boxerfred is town. from before, day 1 interactions between him and ritoky as I said before were in my eyes town on town. food for thought. still haven't finished his filter though. | ||
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On February 10 2016 04:26 boxerfred wrote: By the way, everyone's so sure on Koshi and Chez, yet I am the only person to actually have voted? Are you guys unsure suddenly or what? it's night phase. | ||
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On February 10 2016 04:03 MoosyDoosy wrote: Also, that's a very strange reason to townread someone. If you think Koshi is scum then both scum switching to save Palmar would have looked very strange, especially as JAT flipped town. So definitely one scum wouldn't have switched while Koshi worked to save Palmar's ass. Unless you really think mafia would be so dumb as to all switch to save Palmar. So Moosy, what do you think of boxerfred's response to me, now that you've read it? (still reading) | ||
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On February 10 2016 04:31 boxerfred wrote: What the fuck I feel like I messed up the cycles completely. 24 night 48 day, right? I thought this would be first 24h of day 4? This is night 2, ends tonight midnight CET, then begins 48h day 3. boxerfred, what do you think about my post on page 117 (post 2333). You asked for it. | ||
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In the event Chezinu got modkilled, whom would you lynch next and why? (Ignore Koshi for obvious reasons) | ||
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+ Show Spoiler [Your Moosy read] + On February 09 2016 23:20 nooniansoong wrote: [*]Chezinu
[*]MoosyDoosy
Do you see a pattern here? Day 1 reads + Show Spoiler + (Regarding townreading ritoky versus Damdred) On February 05 2016 15:11 MoosyDoosy wrote: I would honestly not take you ritoky. As adorable as you are, I prefer a Damdred leap of faith over you right now. Especially right now. On February 05 2016 15:11 NocturneMage wrote: Why? On February 05 2016 15:13 MoosyDoosy wrote: something about reading disfo, and ritoky by extension, his push onto someone, and something else i forget. On February 07 2016 02:55 MoosyDoosy wrote: Rels - I have a soul read situation with him that he knows as well. Every time in the past that I've been wary of him he's turned out to be Mafia. Every time I town read him immediately, he has been town. It has to do with how he sets himself up in the game. His opening made me wary. But I do agree with a lot of what he's been saying which is shit for me because logic > feelings from my experience in Mafia. Rels, I'm going to keep off of you for now, but that's on the basis you keep shitting townie rainbows. ritoky & disfo - Bear with me, things are foggy because I read quickly to catch up and play D2. There was a situation where ritoky pushed disfo and disfo made a shit case. I think NM and/or Palmar was implicated somewhere which should be interesting. Day 2 + Show Spoiler [Moosy Day 2 reads] + On February 08 2016 06:45 NocturneMage wrote: phoneposting So what about it? What are your thoughts on Rels now? What is this heuristic/tell you are using on Rels for? On February 08 2016 07:09 MoosyDoosy wrote: mMmmm i currently have no thoughts on Rels. This day is enough about Palmar that Rels has dropped off and there’s not enough for me to read him. This waits until N3/D3 where things should pick up. mMmmm...I'm interested in what you're aiming for D2 in general. Who are you looking into? What exactly are you trying to question? On February 08 2016 07:17 NocturneMage wrote: I don't find this believable or you haven't read the thread. Rels posted quite a bit earlier on Koshi and he pushed Koshi I believe. That's not the definition of falling off. He posted a massive case. On February 08 2016 07:22 MoosyDoosy wrote: bruh, do you seriously expect my thought process to make sense? Along with another point raised earlier to disformation about Moosy dodging questions: + Show Spoiler [addressing the question dodging of Moosy] + On February 09 2016 03:02 NocturneMage wrote: at disformation between the two solo voters, MoosyDoosy is more likely mafia than Onegu. it isn't super likely a scumteam would have 2/4 off wagon, even so look at other attributes. onegu there is absolutely zero indicative information either way. MoosyDoosy could be scum because: (1) repeated question dodging/not giving reads when requested (at least 3 occasions I've counted) - has bailed on me twice when questions have been asked directly of him, once day 1 and once early day 2 (2) reasons for scumreading/not trusting ritoky day 1 in context were extremely murky, vague and evasive (3) even if Rels verified that MD's meta read on him was correct, he also townread me a bit too easily. namely that I was town for being illogical/convoluted, whereas disformation and Rels scumread me for the exact same thing. pretty sure now that read was contrived. (4) Day 2 he stated that Rels' activity dropped off when the opposite was true - he was pushing Koshi. Instead of giving a read on Rels, Moosy gave another evasive answer (post 1854) (5) bottom of page 95, I pressed him for a read on Rels AGAIN. He gave another deflective answer AGAIN. (post 1898) Nothing after that after I had to go to bed. his "dumbtelling" is very easy to fake as mafia, and it's been a known fact since Fullmetal. I would use other criteria (less fake-able) to ensure he's town if he somehow is. I will expand on these points with quotes when I'm back on a laptop if I need to but references should be obvious. Are we possibly seeing a pattern here? All in all, if you read Moosy's entire filter, he's not committing to much of anything in terms of scumreads (except the obvious town ones). These points together? Alongside the solo vote, Moosy has a decent shot of being scum. Thoughts? | ||
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As in, when he DOES make reads, how does he actually do it? You said day 1 he talks in code or by theme or whatever it was and he was sort of doing it day 1? Also is he a low-volume poster? Does he interact with people and then make reads? I know this sounds dumb but given the sheer difficulty I've had trying to figure out the damn filter, I'm probably going to need some help here. My big issue is that there are three mafia left here, Koshi, almost certainly one of them, and I have decent reason to scumread both Moosy and VayneAuthority. boxerfred is possible, the day 1 vote is yuck, but I'm seeing town tells scattered throughout as I read his filter. I wouldn't lynch him before Koshi or VA at this moment. | ||
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On February 10 2016 05:25 disformation wrote: Not sure which pattern you mean, besides him not given good reads/cases and generally being a bit dodgy? But yeah that is probably enough to give him a fair chance at being scum. xD Also skimmed over his filter and it wasn't hot at all. That was pretty much the gist of my argument. Especially when you compare that to his filters - in terms of sheer quality of reads - from Fullmetal and Drams and you should have a much better idea of what I'm talking about. | ||
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On February 10 2016 06:10 Rels wrote: Oh no we're 9-3. 8-3 tomorrow, so 2 mislynches, unless the anti blue stuff hit, then we need one KP-free night to keep the 2 mislynches. Reminder: We can no-lynch this game. Does that change anything? | ||
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On February 10 2016 06:33 marvellosity wrote: i think we lose a lynch if we no-lynch I'm writing this out - let's assume a worst case scenario. Someone gets obliterated tonight. 9:3 NK and cannon 7:3 mislynch 6:3 nightkill 5:3 mylo - take your no lynch here??????? 5:3 nightkill 4:3 lylo I'm doing this right? Pretty sure I am. I mean if you no lynch at 5:3 you still have another shot at figuring shit out anyways because mafia HAVE to shoot? Am I derping again? | ||
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On February 10 2016 06:44 Rels wrote: Meh I see what everything is saying in VA's filter. The thing is, he voted Palmar, his GF if he's scum. With minimal explanation too, and Palmar was lynched until the last second. He could have switched anytime if he wanted to. The thing I don't like the most about him is the named VT plan, it's (1) bad and (2) he changed his story about it. But him voting Palmar is much stronger than that. I wish I could have been clearer about this the first time around I tried to explain. I am relieved more people are seeing and understanding this. I really do believe VA is mafia. | ||
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On February 10 2016 06:45 marvellosity wrote: on the other hand, VA would be 100% dead at this point if he had switched off late in the day. He wasn't all that great day 1 when you look at the grand scheme of things and Noon/myself/ritoky had pointed out varying reasons why. The mafia motivation to bus is to gain cred. Context/timing of the vote, he's poor either way. | ||
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On February 10 2016 06:47 boxerfred wrote: NM, what do you think about Moosy? He is likely scum. Very likely, and likely over you tbh. I'm at Koshi/VA and then one of Moosy or Chezinu. | ||
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On February 10 2016 06:53 boxerfred wrote: I actually didn't. 24 hours ago, I was sold on the idea of a scum vig. Now, I'm thinking that there's a town vig in, too. I'm actually not that great at balance for more than 13 players, so I'm not about to point fingers. That said....there's enough kp flying around as it is. There's no town vig. And it's a scum vig because Palmar should have been shot night 1. The fact he wasn't indicates there was a scum vig - plus, no one claimed the shot. Typically, when there's an errant shot like that the town vig usually claims. Here there was no claim, so you can assume it's a scum vig. | ||
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On February 10 2016 06:55 marvellosity wrote: what insane town vigi do you think would shoot any of those players instead of Palmar? why are you even thinking this?! Bah you ninjaed me. | ||
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On February 10 2016 06:54 marvellosity wrote: Koshi -> Chez -> the rest tbh i'm coming round to bf town. I'm just not letting myself think about all the contradictions I found. It's bad for my health Why is Chezinu "more" mafia than VA/Moosy? | ||
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On February 10 2016 06:57 disformation wrote: you do not claim ever with that BS starkiller thing. I am honestly going to rage at HTS if we lose because of that thing. Like I really want to flame her because it's HTS but I would probably get modkilled because it's HTS. And we obviously can't afford modkills lol. Back on topic though - I honestly think boxerfred is town. Rels I honestly think you are tunnelling him. Have you played with him before? Were you in Firefly? There's just no way I would lynch him before Koshi/VA/Chez/MoosyDoosy. | ||
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On February 10 2016 07:11 MoosyDoosy wrote: Meh, I mean. My alignment is fairly obvious but if you read it that way. You should also revisit that last quote block. :p I didn't take the time to refute it, but a lot of it was incorrect. Actually, no it wasn't. All of the points had references, some can doubt the subjectivity of number 3 but the rest of the points it is pretty clear if you read the filter and read the thread. You might also consider addressing Nooniansoong's case against you too. He brought up some original points against you I think that I didn't consider when I first read them. | ||
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On February 10 2016 07:15 disformation wrote: btw where is LS? IIRC from Dark Tournament he has school or is at uni. I think he might be at class. NAI. | ||
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marvellosity - duh Rels - duh disformation - duh Nooniansoong (same reasons cited by Marv, Koshi pushing hard for his lynch/similar scumreads as myself plus rationale to arrive at them) Pretty Sure He's Town (Only Lynch in a 2:1 lylo situation) darthfoley - wrong side of the Day 1 lynch, but pretty invested day 1, pretty substantial arguments days 1 and 3 Give Him More Time To Show Himself as Town LightningStrike - From experience with him in Dark Tournament, I found his town playstyle very scummy, I remember Rels and a few others correcting me on how to read him. I want to see him make more substantial reads on finding the two remaining mafia between Chez/BF/VA/Moosy. That should give you an answer I think. Gut Call - Town boxerfred - There's a few tells on his end and there's a few peripheral things I'm seeing. Things I don't like about him - the self-meta, the vote day 1. (If Palmar had flipped vig, he'd look significantly worse I would say.) For someone who might struggle as town, his response to me regarding Moosy's vote makes sense. Having mislynched him in Firefly, I can see the reasons his towngame might not be great if he's afk; in Firefly boxerfred was scumreading me all game for really dumb things, so it's very believable he's not focusing on the right things as town. Peripheral things - he's on a LOT of people's scumlists and most concerningly, he's on the scumlist of my two top scumreads (Koshi aside). Now I realise the last is unflipped association, but my remaining top scumreads have nothing townie about them - and I would lynch them any day above boxerfred. God Help Us All Chezinu - The two things Chezinu has going for him if I had to get ANYTHING from his filter - ignoring meta is that (1) he's not playing to survive - that "don't give a fuck" attitude and (2) he's on too many scumlists, particularly my scumreads. Even then I've been very frustrated with his Day 1 vote for God knows what reason and not making any sense with any of his reads, why he says certain reads are "interesting" MoosyDoosy - Get Your Red Flags Up - Probable Scum (1) Voting Analysis - Solo vote/off wagon (2) Repeated question dodging (3) Point taken from Nooniansoong - constant second guessing of his reads 99% Scum - Koshi - LYNCH HIM WITH FIRE DAY 4 (1) Voting Analysis - Made the vote to save flipped scum Palmar before Damdred switched again (2) Directionless reads on DF/Damdred/ritoky Day 1 (3) No followup on a scumread on me Day 1 (4) General scumclaim conversation with marvellosity Day 2 as Palmar was getting autolynched (5) Burnt out quip - in of itself it's not alignment indicative but taken with everything else it is 1000% SCUM - VAYNE AUTHORITY - LYNCH HIM WITH FIRE DAY 3 (1) Voting Analysis - Early vote on Palmar for towncred, lack of substantiation or investment in the lynch, points on Palmar were made (a) unrelated to the key arguments for this game and well after I meta-cased him. (2) Overall lack of direction/reads Days 1 and 2 - in particular you need to really read his filter. Look for lack of followup on me, DF, disformation and one other player. (3) Point from marvellosity - "post-hoc" explanation for reaction test. (4) Playing for survival/cruising on his town meta - just look at his day 2/night 2 responses to me - "this is my town meta". Both Nooniansoong and ritoky have called him on reasons he's mafia. (5) The "how did he know I was a good player" issue? I've never played with him. How would he know? (6) The Intangible - Finally, you've just got to trust me with this read. IF I DIE THIS NIGHT PHASE, VA IS CONFIRMED MAFIA. I AM NOT INSANE. THERE IS A REASON I AM SAYING THIS. ANYONE WHO CAN THINK A MODICUM OUTSIDE THE BOX SHOULD REALISE WHY I'VE BEEN PUSHING HIM HARD. I HAVEN'T STOPPED AFTER DAY 1. YES KOSHI IS MAFIA. BUT PLEASE LYNCH VAYNE AUTHORITY BEFORE KOSHI. IF I DIE, THAT SHOULD BE EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW. DO NOT LET HIM TALK YOU OUT OF IT. JUST DO IT!!!!!!!! | ||
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On February 16 2016 10:09 LightningStrike wrote: Also NM for MVP of the game he pretty much nailed the entire team Day 1. nah, cheers for the sentiment, but the town collectively played well, I think most of the town worked fine together, I mean towards the end of day 1 after I read a bunch of filters, I had reasons to think some people were mafia but there was no way I could get certain people lynched day 1. my day 1 was 50% inactive because of real life and two of my scumreads I couldn't interact with, I just couldn't be in the thread at the same time they were so it was really hard for me to actually illustrate why they were mafia. and yeah LS, I just have a rough time reading you but I was explained after Dark Tournament on how to appropriately read you. like in Dark Tournament I felt you were posting just to post, but you seem to be more townie when you interact with others. it's hard to articulate properly but I think I know what to look for now with you. | ||
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chezinu....I don't know I don't really understand his playstyle, until he started breadcrumbing his checks, he was difficult to read. so disformation, keep it up, hopefully we'll roll another one as town together. | ||
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I had trouble deciding n1 between va and koshi to track that night. I switched 3-4 times. 2259 I settle on va. looks like I'd have gotten a result on koshi too reading the mafia qt, though. damn. afterwards it was you, but regardless it'd have been a smattering of you/md/boxerfred/chez depending on how I felt. regardless even as vt, I'd have been pushing both va and koshi pretty hard. chez from his checks checked disformation night 1, then he was roleblocked either night 2 or night 3 but the night he wasn't roleblocked he checked disformation. I can't tell from his posts. I don't understand chez-speak lol. | ||
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On February 16 2016 10:49 ritoky wrote: naw VA or NM was always scum cuz of how they was fighting early on, wasn't town v town kinda fighting, i just thought it was NM before VA cuz he was defending me so hard which creeped me out didn't realise that was purely scummy...I've seen town try and defend someone they were absolutely sure of too. someone else pointed out (forget whether it was in obs or the thread) that va dropped his scumread on me at odd times. really odd times. and then some of us saw how a decent chunk of his pushes weren't going anywhere, even Noon had a nice case on him end of day 2 I think. | ||
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damn it's late. gonna turn in. ggs again. and hts, watch it with the kp plz (kidding, I'm aware it's not easy to host, just giving her shit) seriously though, thanks hosts as usual. | ||
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On February 16 2016 11:18 disformation wrote: Oh, btw b4 I forget: you should be a bit careful about tilting. Scum would have probably shot you either way, but I felt the post where you were really raging at HtS about the strong arm shot was fairly blue indicative. I remember you went at Trfel super hard in DT, too. Just step back a bit. I know it is easier said then done, but I don't think that stuff is good for your play. Points taken. Thanks. Dark Tournament there was specific language that Trfel used that made me think he was out to get me, I think had I approached it a different way I might have had a different outcome. Admittedly I'd have raged at HTS even as VT and the mafia actually yolo shot me from their QT, still not a great post considering others commented on balance and I know dick all on that. Bah. I will admit I get kinda get a bit invested in these games as both alignments I'll admit but I'll do my best to try and not come off as a dick next time. I know it's a turnoff for some. | ||
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