EPT[M][I] Rayn let's be nice Invite Take 2
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NocturneMage
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NocturneMage
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The argument about addressing Damdred - forget about it, nothing to even be addressed because what Damdred said was truly NAI. | ||
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the rayn breakdown makes sense, I know he is someone that thinks logically, sometimes a bit linearly, but there's no mafia motivation I can see in his posting. He has nothing to hide. Holyflare could very well be thinking along different lines here. He tried to draw a reaction, it was off an NAI post, but it doesn't exclusively make him mafia. Trfel's post on lack of emotions, plus the post with six questions does look fairly contrived. | ||
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On January 16 2016 06:10 geript wrote: I'm pretty sure that ASM is mafia too. His post made like 0 sense whatsoever. First post was under the influence, rest of filter seemed alright to me aside from the ignorance of who was in the game and who wasn't but that's not what I would consider mafia indicative. Break it down further? | ||
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I am interpreting his sentence on Holyflare to be that he's acting similar to how he read marv last game. I also don't think the reads are random, rayn has been active and engaged and as I stated before I read his posts carefully and couldn't see mafia motivation in them. If you think ASM is deliberately ignoring mafia motivations in rayn's post then that's an entirely different argument with a different breakdown. | ||
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Whoever said I was disinterested that isnt true. Unavailable is one thing. I will catch up when I get to my laptop in the next approx 45 min. Trfel I looked at the interactions between HF/Rayn to come to my conclusion. Damdred regarding point #2 in your conclusion re: Trfel you very well could be wrong, that was similar shit he pulled in Fullmetal when he was Mafia. I'll look/read more carefully and follow up. | ||
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NocturneMage
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Unless I missed one of Palmars posts, what changed? | ||
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I believe ASM and at least one other person also felt the similar logic in it so where did that come about you didn't understand, same thing with geript break down what made zero sense. Obviously if this was made moot in the last six pages then fine but just saying. | ||
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I believe ASM and at least one other person also felt the similar logic in it so where did that come about you didn't understand, same thing with geript break down what made zero sense. Obviously if this was made moot in the last six pages then fine but just saying. | ||
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On January 16 2016 06:32 Palmar wrote: alot is just bad or troll I am never changing my vote from HF while he's being a little bitch. If I change it, it'll be to trfel who is mafia. I prefer lynching little crying bitches over mafia though. On January 17 2016 00:37 Palmar wrote: we're 100% lynching hf and shooting trfel I'm not really gonna read anything until they're both dead. I'm here on the laptop. Finally. Alright, spiel on Palmar. Okay with his first point against Trfel, but here's what I don't like - why go for a policy lynch (from what I'm reading) over a scum lynch and furthermore, why is he banking on a role that may or may not shoot Trfel depending on how he's read? There are a lot of lurkers and others in the eyes of some of the other players have reason to be shot, hence a shot on Trfel is not necessarily guaranteed. Additionally in both cases both players are players who can more easily be read in subsequent days, it's not like HF is lurking and not able to be read. So I don't get that either. | ||
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On January 17 2016 05:55 Holyflare wrote: Because palmar's best day is day 1 unless he's mafia when it's not. From another ongoing game I cannot mention this was brought up where he finds mafia day 1, here in this game, he has Trfel as mafia yet doesn't vote for him, so I am trying to figure out what he gets (from his view) out of a HF lynch, like what, information? not if people (from what I see Damdred, DYH) are saying, whoops no, let's just get HF out of the way via policy. Given other possible candidates I think it's a cop out unless they are legit scumreading you. In any case I'm still catching up with the thread. atm I can't see any possible town motivation from Palmar, so atm can switch to him if town want to consolidate on him. | ||
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On January 17 2016 05:56 Damdred wrote: I do like how nm is totally ignoring me and just doing his own thing. ??????? On January 17 2016 04:49 Damdred wrote: Nm while it a true full metal for trfel did sort of fit into two I don't think that this fits exactly. At a certain point trfel just gave up that game. Not sure about here exactly cared a bot more about getting heard want to say town still. Something about geript makes me sorta say don't lynch today either. HF even though I think he flips town might just be the lynch to avoid distraction this game. But I want people's opinions elsewhere. I was getting there? If I missed something else you said, quote it. | ||
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On January 16 2016 06:27 ritoky wrote: in terms of game stuff i think hf and ve are town there's also a vast difference in palmar and rayn's interactions which suggests to me that rayn probably isn't mafia unless he is with palmar. On January 17 2016 05:38 ritoky wrote: i kinda wanna sheep VE this phase ritoky might be disinterested, but gut call based on these two quotes, and my read on VE, makes me think ritoky warrants a townlean here. | ||
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NocturneMage
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178 can come from either alignment. 175, the Palmar still doing town stuff allegedly part, I don't know why he doesn't just zero in on Palmar and take a stance one way or another. But just looking at his filter, not knowing anything else, I'd say it warrants a scumlean. | ||
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On January 17 2016 06:10 Damdred wrote: You will have to explain that one a lot more I'll assume that's on my post on ritoky. Sure. Disinterest can come from either alignment, so I'm going to disregard that or any possible meta (my only exp with ritoky is two scum games, I've never had a town game with ritoky) It's a shit associative read - but It appears he's townreading VE and recognising a town and who to sheep is a town trait (yeh I realise you can sheep as mafia for shite reasons too but,....) second, from his first post, he's not townreading Palmar. neither is/was VE, hence the connection. additionally Palmar's wanting to policy lynch over Trfel for what purpose I don't know. like I said it might be a shitty heuristic, obviously if Palmar flips town then I have to re-evaluate. | ||
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On January 17 2016 06:11 VisceraEyes wrote: I though I agreed with points he made last game. Maybe I'm misremembering. I though all he's done this game was vote for HF and male throwaway posts. I'll check me fax and get back with you. On January 17 2016 06:12 VisceraEyes wrote: Ya okay he can live I guess. My vote is still on Trfel in spirit. Except that's the thing. That's really all that Palmar has done - posts 150/212. | ||
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Read specifically posts 254, 275, 286 and 290. I can see easily where he's grappling between Trfel and Holyflare despite him saying that Trfel's initial posts make him sceptical of what he's posted since, and the case on HF appears partially to be based on a pre-associative flip, which he seems aware of. In any case, he's showing he's thinking it through and making the best possible judgement with what he has in front of him. DYH and Cephiro atm are coinflips, obvious, but there it is... Right now, I'll take a re-look at Trfel and rayn interactions, etc and see if I missed anything. | ||
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On January 17 2016 06:35 Damdred wrote: Here's the thing. I don't think that's enough to town read Ritoky on. For example,he has several scum games where he pushes the responsibility on someone else who is town. Down under I think he did this and he did it in a ongoing game which I can't talk about. So I don't get your town read and your lack of suspicion about him after playing with two scum rut is a bit disconcerting especially when I want to tr you. ritoky had a lot more material contentwise as mafia in the two games I've had with him and what made him mafia in both games I've had with him is not truing up here (if he should be mafia). I'm not saying he's inactive town, because the inactivity can come from either alignment. In any case, what I've mentioned is not a great heuristic, at best a very weak lean/gut call as I've mentioned before. I'm still looking through other people and if I feel I have too many town reads then I have to go back to my weaker reads/null reads. | ||
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which down under? 2 or 3? Also pushing the responsibility? You are referring to the sheeping of VE? That as simple as it is, as I said can come from either alignment though. And in "that other game we can't talk about" there was additional evidence that indicated a lot of the responsibility laid with him and what he said there didn't line up with what happened. That's where the abdication of responsibility was more mafia indicative. I know what you are saying but I don't feel that between "that other game" and here it's entirely the same situation. Like I see what you are saying and I get why it makes you sceptical but there is a town motivation side to that too, and I can't really discount that without more evidence or process of elimination over time. | ||
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On January 17 2016 06:54 geript wrote: Or someone like Ace. I don't think I've ever lynched Ace when I'm town. When I scumread Ace, VE said Ace isn't a good day 1 lynch based on meta, no dispute on that yet. If you have a different viewpoint that isn't policy lynch, let's hear it. Re ASM, why? same argument? I'm making sense of where he's grappling between HF/Trfel. | ||
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On January 17 2016 07:04 geript wrote: My arguments make sense. I'm maybe not explaining them well. Let me take this a different direction then - because unless you further break down the ASM not making sense -> exclusively mafia (through what? distortion of the facts??? playing it safe?) I'm looking at your post 191 and you are (apparently?) scumreading ASM for not commenting on someone? At best that's pre-associative if I am understanding you right. You said you didn't want to lynch VE off a single quote and it was based on Palmar. So, what are your thoughts on Palmar and his approach to HF/Trfel? | ||
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On January 17 2016 06:55 Damdred wrote: I think it's 2 it was a postvrestriction game I was in. Town Ritoky generally takes responsibility and pushes what he thinks. I don't even really know of there is much reason exactly for rot to town 've here besides just someone to,sheep for sheep sake Besides that there were other things in the other game as well I agree. Like I agree town motivated side is town looks for someone to sheep they trust and does so. But there's also rayn and his soul read buddy me in here, so do you think 've deserved that type of sleeping at this poibt? Okay, so this is basically a meta-related argument you are making against ritoky. I wasn't aware of the relationship/knowledge/whatever you want to call it between him and rayn, but I am aware of it between you and him. That's making some sense - I honestly don't know enough to figure out how much stock he should or shouldn't be putting into who he's sheeping and how much, I know he said he had a positive read sometime back on VE in Fullmetal but he was mafia in Fullmetal. IDK. But your argument is making sense....still don't think at this time it's enough to make ritoky top lynch though. | ||
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That is how and likely why I came to the opposite conclusion on him. | ||
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On January 17 2016 07:16 Damdred wrote: Honestly I don't know that I want to lynch him to say as I do think if he starts scrapping town rainbows he's an asset. The other nonprescenses in the thread worry me a bit,more. Don't you think? Well Ceph just posted a big case right now if he's trying to get more information on/from a scumread....but right now it's similar to how people are reading mderg for sounding too broad. I realise ASM and mderg are two different players here but it's a similar problem. I think the case, barring additional purpose/information is pretty bad. And DYH is a low-volume poster as either alignment, only substantive post he has could come from either alignment. Like I'm still going through a few other things atm, but if all else fails, I will fall back on a policy lynch. I'm also a bit puzzled as to the collective hesitation on Palmar (barring weekend inactivity). | ||
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On January 17 2016 07:26 Cephiro wrote: If he constantly thought that Trfel was the better lynch, why the hell would he ever take Trfel's case on Holyflare seriously? That doesn't make any sense. If your #1 scumread makes a case on someone, who the hell reacts to that by saying the case is good and has valid points, making that #1 scumread less scummy and the case they made the person on more scummy, and still somehow keeping the #1 scumread as #1? Someone explain me how you wrapped your heads around that logic? Because I sure as hell don't see why a townie would ever react that way. The way you are phrasing this, you are taking the points in isolation/absolutes. He even said there were other points of his play he considered plus Holyflare's play. In the event you are town, it's probably better at this point for ASM to straight up respond to you here, but I can actually see a town motivation. | ||
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On January 17 2016 07:48 DoYouHas wrote: @NM- how are you feeling about a HF lynch right now? Ignoring any of the mod-related stuff... Like reading his interaction with rayn first impression was town on town before I AFKed. Then he question's rayn's logic and thinks I'm mafia for that. My only caveat with HF is that he's not looking at the rest of my play, then again, that's probably NAI since he makes calls off one post. Like right now, I feel more sold on Palmar/geript, I see rayn is saying Palmar's play is NAI (ignoring his weekend going afk), geript pushing ASM for meh reasons and not addressing the ongoing Ceph/ASM interactions... I'm reading Trfel, and I feel there's a few more things I don't like either, his use of disinterest in pushing reads (????). He's scumreading HF's tone as aggressive but part of that aggressive tone is because of the whole mod situation which I'm trying to ignore. I wasn't around present with HF when he was alive in Outlaw, but I know from ages ago when I obsed Gaiden he was pretty aggressive as town pushing his scumreads, so that could be considered NAI. Like from Fullmetal, Trfel takes NAI points and makes them scummy...and if HF is going to be aggressive in pushing townreads and he's not pushing.....he's going to get scumread either way. I'm just feeling really meh about Trfel and at this moment, his cases are really poor and I'm just really struggling to understand why people are townreading him (you, Damdred). | ||
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Also you said I was pretty disinterested and comparing myself to ritoky so where do you stand on that now given what I've been trying to do and what ritoky has done since he last afked? On January 17 2016 01:13 Trfel wrote: I guess I could be willing to lynch NocturneMage. I don't think I want to lynch ritoky. It feels like NocturneMage is much more likely to be mafia. I'd rather not lynch DoYouHas or Cephiro today, they feel very much like coinflips. My thinking is that in a low activity, disinterested game like this, mafia doesn't need to be super involved with the thread and direct people, because town is going to be largely focused on town. So, mafia just wants to be in the background and mostly fit in, but look good enough to avoid suspicion and have the ability to start seriously pushing something if they need to. NocturneMage fits that description very well. The best example of this is how he was townreading Holyflare, but didn't care to explain it (or maybe gave one sentence that didn't really say anything, depending on how you interpret it), and was scumreadaing me (Trfel) and voted me. But he didn't seem to care at all that Holyflare was being lynched and he was the only person voting for me. I guess I'm not sure how to explain it, but to me NocturneMage doesn't feel like disinterested town, but like mafia trying to fit in. What do you think? | ||
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On January 17 2016 08:00 Trfel wrote: Holyflare  Can we just ignore raynpelikoneet and lynch mafia? Not considering material (or not furthering why what I've laid out since you last AFKed that it's scummy) and keeping the same stance doesn't make you look any more townie at all. | ||
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On January 17 2016 01:13 Trfel wrote: I guess I could be willing to lynch NocturneMage. I don't think I want to lynch ritoky. It feels like NocturneMage is much more likely to be mafia. I'd rather not lynch DoYouHas or Cephiro today, they feel very much like coinflips. My thinking is that in a low activity, disinterested game like this, mafia doesn't need to be super involved with the thread and direct people, because town is going to be largely focused on town. So, mafia just wants to be in the background and mostly fit in, but look good enough to avoid suspicion and have the ability to start seriously pushing something if they need to. NocturneMage fits that description very well. The best example of this is how he was townreading Holyflare, but didn't care to explain it (or maybe gave one sentence that didn't really say anything, depending on how you interpret it), and was scumreadaing me (Trfel) and voted me. But he didn't seem to care at all that Holyflare was being lynched and he was the only person voting for me. I guess I'm not sure how to explain it, but to me NocturneMage doesn't feel like disinterested town, but like mafia trying to fit in. What do you think? This is your most substantial argument against me and as far as I'm aware, your only one. When you re-enter the thread, or earlier before you afked you are trying to get others to discuss me. You return to the thread when DYH votes me and then maintain your scumread on me after a number of things have transpired in the thread. If I'm your top scumread, you should have noticed any and all of the material I've posted, so I want to know what in that you've found scummy and/or why you would maintain I'm mafia trying to fit in. At the time Holyflare was getting lynched, it's early in the day and everyone is still trying to figure shit out. I'm purposely ignoring the entire modconfirm/administrative stuff and just trying to play mafia, regardless of HF's alignment there are 2 mafia (in the event HF is mafia) so just centring things around him is a cop-out. My initial analysis was made off a conversation, I tried to read damn filters and I'm still trying to understand how you are coming to the conclusions you are about him. I might not be seeing the same shit you are, but that doesn't make me mafia. And even if I shouldn't lynch you because you're town and I'm making a mistake as town, I am also concerned at the people that are doing dick all and going ignored if we're all town and tearing each other apart. And why there's no commentary on that. | ||
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On January 17 2016 08:20 Trfel wrote: @NocturneMage, I am ignoring geript and Palmar (and AlotSomuch) because I am not sure about them, and because you are mafia  I felt that Palmar is town for meta reasons, but I should probably look again at Assassination Mafia, my meta could be incorrect. I'm not, and when I flip town, where will you go after that? Also IIRC Palmar's meta is finding mafia day 1 or being scum for not progressing the game. If you maintain he's town for meta reasons and he's policy lynching HF over a scum read (you) and you're town, why would you be townreading him? Or if your understanding of his meta is different from mine, then what is it? | ||
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On January 17 2016 08:30 DoYouHas wrote: So my thinking for a scum NM basically comes down to these two points, which tie together. 1. Strange approach to HF and rayn. NM's initial read is that their scumming eachother was town on town. NM is scumreading Trfel. NM isn't trying to convince people off of the very likely to be lynched HF when he has a townread on HF. Particularly strange since he also has a townread on HF's prime pusher, rayn. It is even stranger when the secondary wagon which has momentum is Trfel. 2. Something that NM was advised of last game by HTS after-the-fact was that something he does as town is to call out when people are using things to call others scum that do not make them scum. The lack of him doing that was one of the ways she was sure he was scum. This game, he is doing that. But he isn't doing it to stop a push on HF. Same response I just gave to Trfel now. EARLY ENOUGH IN THE GAME and those reads can change, also people policy lynching HF is another issue we have to contend with here. I can convince people of a scumread until I am blue in the face but if people want to policy lynch HF there's nothing I can do about it and I still maintain that Trfel is taking certain NAI factors and making it alignment indicative. (ritoky vs myself......uh hello?!??!?!?!?) One way to stop a push on a townread is to convince them more on your scumread but aside from saying "plynch is a copout/etc" I'm really not going to get anywhere. And Damdred truly believes in his townread on Trfel, I get that and looked into other people since this is a 10v3 game. | ||
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On January 17 2016 08:34 Trfel wrote: I don't know. I'm starting to remember some things that make me less sure that you are mafia, though, so I really need to look into that more. My perception of Palmar's meta is that as mafia he is serious and as town he is not. Basically just that, but relative to Palmar's play. That's why he was mafia in Outlaw Mafia (to me, anyway), because overall he was serious and actually playing the game as it's intended to be played. To answer your previous question, I did read the thread (if a bit quickly, there's some time pressure...), and I read your posts. And I still think that you are mafia, though I'm double-checking that read. Yes, I found several things about your more recent posts suspicious, but I don't share every suspicious thing that I see unless I feel that there is a point to it. Here's the thing, the reason I'm asking you this is accountability. You're driving a mislynch one way or another. DYH I can't tell at the moment if he's town having a bad read on me because he's just not been in this game or if he's mafia trying to get the easiest ML he can manage. And Trfel if you are town, then I think you're not entirely accurate on the Palmar meta. He trolled the shit out of people in Outlaw, and in Down Under 3 from obsing I recall him being more serious yelling at people who didn't follow him. It's a faulty reason to town him in your worldview. | ||
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Sure. I just asked him a question where does he go after I flip. I'm town, so if I get lynched, it's a mislynch. In the event I'm wrong on him and he's town ("one way or another") he comes under suspicion for pushing the mislynch, and in a way that is quite similar to Fullmetal (those who recognise the game will understand what I mean). If I'm wrong on him and he's town, any information he gives regarding other people might help me or others figure out his alignment. If he's mafia, then any answer he gives (or non-answer) may help others find partner(s) etc. | ||
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On January 17 2016 08:47 Trfel wrote: Um, my read is entirely correct. Palmar didn't troll at all in Outlaw Mafia (at least not in the first three days, pretty sure he didn't after that, either). At least, not relative to Palmar, anyway. An example of Palmar trolling is shown in Down Under 2, where Palmar was talking to two or three other Palmars. Another example of Palmar trolling is shown in Linux Mafia, where he mocked the recently released movie "The Interview" by drawing attention to himself without furthering the game in any way. It's not something I can explain, you'd have to read it to believe it. Alright, so you have your basis for that meta, fine. This doesn't make you mafia. I can shennanie onto Palmar or geript if we aren't getting the majority on Trfel. | ||
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I am going to afk, clear my mind and return. | ||
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nice to come home from work to this though. such is life. good luck. | ||
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Gameplay wise...at least I was right with rayn/HF being town on town at first glance but felt the interactions were starting to become a bit distraction so I deliberately tried to play around them. I think I realise why DYH saw it as scummy though. Really would like to know why Trfel shot me or why he thought I was the best shot when looking at the votes there were several better shots and other lurkers (i.e. geript). I was unable to play all evening (night phase) because of work so if that's why I was shot, I'll post something next time if I'm getting slammed, but if it was for my day 1 play then I really don't know what to say. I know he was unable to read me for most of Dark Tournament so I did have in the back of my mind he might have just been unable to read me this game. Trfel being vig, obviously means he knows he's the second wagon, but especially given the votes - and Ace pointed it out quite nicely in obs - Cephiro was a much better one that case on scumbuddy ASM was pretty bad and had many faults and I would have pushed him day 2 had I not been shot. DYH, I couldn't tell if it was coming from scum or town, and I knew he was probably fear reading me because of Newbie 18. I'm guessing that influenced his vote prior to shennanies. ritoky's last post was pretty bad, scumslips or interpretations of them aren't NAI, I probably would have called him out on that. doubt I'd have gotten ASM until later on. | ||
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also ASM, I'm with Damdred here, not all games are close to being like this. Modkills even aren't all that common when you consider the number of games played on the site. also on the topic of Coagulation or people who will not play as either alignment it boggles my mind as to why people won't just grow a pair and policy lynch on TL to at least deter others from not playing especially when an environment is ripe for shenanigans at end of cycle or it's evident that scum will keep someone like him around until he becomes a detriment late game. This game, policy lynching HF was a slightly different scenario since the issue here was not lurking but I know that was brought up in the obs QT as well. | ||
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