EPT/in
Alex if you are reading this get your bum in here!
[T][M] Resistance V - Section 31
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/in Alex if you are reading this get your bum in here! | ||
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Then he'd send it to you >_< Anything to deter me from drinking Talisker xD But that should be treated in the same vein as showing PMs  Silly silly Alex though he has that in mind but I have more travels coming up, I can drink all the whiskey (if I'm a spy) and he'll be none the wiser | ||
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And I miss playing with Kita. Even if he's Mafia, at least he can't N1 me! <3 | ||
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Rels, Kita, Lex...I love this group so far! | ||
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I fly home from Singapore tomorrow and will be turning around to Berlin for the full weekend. I think I've told you (James) at some point prior why I'm going to Berlin this weekend....pleaaasseeeee don't hold it against me And Superbia now in? <3 Damdred this lineup is totally worth coming out of retirement! YOU MUST /IN! | ||
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 Please I miss playing with you | ||
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<3 <3 <3 <3 I've missed playing with you. Bloody stoked for this game now...hopefully I survive the flight home though. Night lovelies! | ||
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![[image loading]](http://i978.photobucket.com/albums/ae267/Bm-Atticus/37623944.jpg) <3 this lineup. See you lovelies Sunday night/Mon morning <3 | ||
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Pre-game excuse: I'm in Berlin until tomorrow. With the midnight (local time) start, might or might not be active tonight depending on how late I can/willing to/able to stay up. I'll definitely pick it up though once I return to London tomorrow afternoon. edit for Fidei: yes I know it's my fault I'm stuck in Berlin. You and Lex will harp on me all day about that. It's okay, I have decontaminated myself. Mostly. I think, hehe. But still Berlin was fun  | ||
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On November 02 2015 20:53 Superbia wrote: HtS needs to be here soon and be transparent with the selection of team-members. I have skimmed the thread but when I actually get to the airport and past security, I will comment more in detail. Ill timing for me I know (on the back of a getaway with the husband) but I still have ~9h to be productive. From skimming the thread, Superbia will likely be one of my team members. Artanis/SL are null. Will almost certainly be leaving Kita off. After I clear security, I'm going to read more closely into Xata, Rels, Rayn (and the specific objections). | ||
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I see why rayn wants three reads from me - also with my limited time today, if enough people don't trust me I still want to show my thought process in coming with more townreads so that enough people will vote for a team they can trust, second the sooner we can find all the town/resistance the easier it gets. Starting with the question from Xata to me re: Superbia - first glance the final post from Superbia breaks down his position on Xata, second point I'd never have considered. To me, he's furthering the discussion, which is a town trait (bringing an original point up). I agree it doesn't make Xata firm mafia but it explains the skepticism he has. Right now I'm on page 11, and the way rayn is picking apart the posts he is, is town rayn. I like how he's picking about Rels (#204/211/212/216) If Fidei was holding his breath to my neck, my team would be myself, Superbia and rayn, but since I have more time, I'm going to find a third, and dare I say, a fourth town. (Curious to see what shockey comes up with.) Rels' posting on page 11 also confuses me. Will elaborate in another post. Sidenote: Artanis, congrats on the yellow cord in capoeria, I'll keep you posted on how my second class goes this week. Still on page 12, hang tight. | ||
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On November 02 2015 18:19 Rels wrote: OK bro. I don't have townreads on anyone that posted. I don't have scumreads on them either. I have suspicions on Superbia, kita and you. This post seems somewhat contradictory (not the only post I'll comment on from Rels). Based on the sentences bolded you should in theory be scumleaning the three you listed. I'm also not clear on why you are scumreading rayn or what is jumping out at yoru scumread on rayn. I understand your argument for your initial exchange on Superbia/Xatalos is that Superbia's read on Xatalos was manufactured and I'm seeing your followup on page 16, but where was the suspicion on rayn coming from page 11? Also Rels, my post on shockey was because of him saying he's catching up, he hadn't posted jack all before that. | ||
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On November 02 2015 19:15 Rels wrote: rayn leaving the thread as soon as he's being pushed is scum indicative. Please don't include him in a team. You sure about this? He's done this as town and doesn't take well to what he perceives as "stupidity". And there was at least one quote on page 11 where he clearly inferred that (if you were town) you were being "dumb". | ||
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On November 02 2015 20:11 Xatalos wrote: Rels seemed okay on activity and focus on interaction, town? Artanis and SL basically didn't do anything yet so null. Rels is very active as mafia (reference: Drams, SOTW 2) and in SOTW I believe he also did the latter. (This doesn't make you scum btw, I am just pointing the flaw in your argument and I don't recall you having played in either game.) | ||
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On November 02 2015 23:01 Rels wrote: I thought this question was scummy: It indicates that you read the thread, or at least the last few posts starting page 16, when you said you were stuck on page 12. Not sure it's alignement indicative but I have no idea why you would lie about that. I don't see how that made rayn scummy. He's coming to conclusions with his arguments and he's trying to see if you are coming to conclusions on people's alignments which is generally a town trait. And if you are struggling, why, townies can struggle with getting reads too (reference rsoultin in Drams) so naturally he's nitpicking to see your rationale. Also to your point on me, I do this frequently when I'm in catchup mode. I bounce between an area where I'm reading in detail (multiple tabs open on the laptop) and the end of the thread as it expands. I saw Shockey's post pop up at the end so that's why I made that comment. | ||
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Given my previous posts, this is obviously a placeholder, subject to change. Not that I anticipate problems with my flight or anything but just wanted to put something to a post. Still hunting for the third townread... | ||
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On November 02 2015 23:15 ShoCkeyy wrote: I haven't finished reading the thread, but since I did play with rayn last game where he was mafia and this really brings up his current meta: He seriously starts to get "angry" when things do not go his way. This is also my best suggestion as well. I know I said elsewhere, but rayn has done this as town (reference Drams and a host of other games lol), if rayn is indeed a spy, it's not for this. I did list my reasons for thinking rayn as town, if you dispute those, do let me know. Also I'm not sure you can reasonably meta rayn from one game (Himalayas if I recall right?) but your doing so is NAI. | ||
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On November 02 2015 23:21 Rels wrote: Mm maybe I didn't explain why I thought it was scummy. Oh I actually did! The scummy isn't nitpicking specific points, which is something town!rayn always do; the problem was asking a dumb question, when I remembered him getting angry at the fact he was being ask a dumb question, so I don't know why he would do this himself. Now rayn quoted the angry post, and it was not really the same context. Admittedly I'm finding this tenuous but after reading a few times I think I am understanding your viewpoint, you are saying that rayn isn't acting consistently between games (correct?). I don't agree this makes him scum, but I can at least see this. My only thing here - "are you mafia?" he and others have done this (example: Koshi - "how mafia are you?") out of spite/emotion, and I'm not sure such types of questions can really be taken seriously nor most people who ask them don't really expect, those questions are out of emotion imo - how can people really answer? For example when Koshi does this he accompanies that question with something else to substantiate that emotion (reference: Void), rayn does the same thing except he splits his posts up (reference SOTW I believe). The reason I disagreed with the question being dumb because I saw the purposes and how he reached his conclusions from the questions asked. Am I making sense here? | ||
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(for those not in Europe, London is getting nailed by fog and there's shittonnes of delays/cancellations.) fffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkk At least I'll be playing this game a bit longer here...that said I'm going to try and solidify my submission in the event I cut closer to the deadline. Hopefully not. | ||
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On November 02 2015 23:29 Xatalos wrote: What's your read on me btw, HTS? Would be nice to hear your reads on every player before the team suggestion really. Right now? nullish - I want to look a little more closely at any conclusions you make on people and how you get there before I'm a little more comfortable. At least I'll know I'll be getting to that sooner. | ||
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On November 02 2015 23:34 Half the Sky wrote: Right now? nullish - I want to look a little more closely at any conclusions you make on people and how you get there before I'm a little more comfortable. At least I'll know I'll be getting to that sooner. Actually l'll take this a bit further: Town/Resistance: rayn Sueprbia (will review the TMI argument) Town lean: none at this point Null: Xata (will review) Shockey SL Artanis Scumlean: Kita Rels (will review TMI argument) That's where I am now. | ||
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On November 02 2015 23:22 kitaman27 wrote: If everyone did that, then we would never be able to pass a mission so you can't publicly push that policy. Privately, I'd probably consider it in your position if there were legitimate reasons to distrust the first three, though not regardless of their alignments. Ah, is that a Kita I spot? I imagine still early for you stateside, but surely nothing more of substance aside from game mechanics? >_< I know you don't/can't play often, but I still have a decent memory of what to expect from a town Kita...and right now I'm not seeing a town Kita. | ||
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And yes there are still too many nulls. Artanis has legit reasons (the ones he's cited are reasons he's discussed with me out of game and prior to this game starting) and I know sicklucker sleeps during the day and works at night. So I don't know if that will resolve at least before I fly home before deadline, or if that even happens. | ||
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On November 02 2015 23:43 ShoCkeyy wrote: How much can I trust you with that piece of information? The one thing I'm getting from you right now is that you're friends with rayn, as to where I see rayn being on the other side of the fence due to my previous encounters with him. I think your meta read on rayn is wrong, but at least I understand why it's wrong. And when you say you are "friends" with rayn, can you clarify that? Are you suggesting he's buddying rayn (this is scum indicative) - because I cannot tell from context. Or are you suggesting those two are legitimately townreading each other? | ||
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On November 02 2015 23:55 raynpelikoneet wrote: There are certain situations where not picking yourself as town is the best move you can possibly make. I can agree with this. That said as for my picking the team, my RL situation aside, I have yet to see any objections from anyone to myself being on the team. | ||
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On November 03 2015 00:01 raynpelikoneet wrote: Did anyone actually look at the game and why i got mad there? This game? (or another?) Yeh this game, I know why, and even drew out that explanation in quering Rels. | ||
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On November 03 2015 00:05 Xatalos wrote: Well, continue reading Hm.. I'd maybe put Rels into the null pile. I think his explanations somewhat made sense, and he's actively doing stuff (even if he can be active as scum, it's still easier to be a little less active than that as scum). Otherwise it seemed generally okay. I don't think you ordered the reads within the groups? No not really but if I had to Kita was more scummy than Rels, and rayn is more town if I am splitting hairs than Superbia. Nulls - SL/Artanis are policy lynch equivalent. At least Shockey is now trying to do something. And rayn, quick response to your question as I read Xata's filter - my comments there were in reference to that Shockey is (meta) reading you off one game. The read isn't malicious (from what I can tell) but I pointed out that his tone is NAI and he assumed it to be so. It's wrong, I pointed out why it's wrong, but as we are discussing it, there is no malicious (mafia) intent. Still I feel I need more to see him more clear as town because that is the only substance I see from him now. Does that make sense? | ||
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On November 02 2015 20:55 Xatalos wrote: Yeah I was town and got shot eventually. Why does that make me townie? Alright, these questions are quite town. I know Rels argued TMI from Superbia. So at least I know to flag that argument reviewing Rels later... The only question I'd pose to Superbia is asking him how he knows Xata isn't breaking meta but maybe he hasn't reached that point yet. I'm not going to meta read Xata, largely because I'd be biased on that - the only games I've ever had with Xata (Carol and Assassination, both large normal) he's been scum and I've been town. I've never played with town Xatalos. So far Xata is looking town... Continuing... | ||
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On November 03 2015 00:17 raynpelikoneet wrote: Not really, no. Because the read is purely based on bullshit and that is the only thing he has said, in a game where you are supposed to find townies over scum. So based on this (bolded), we both agree the read is flawed. He used meta to scumread you. We both agree it's the only thing Shockey has said of substance. I put out my reasons why Shockey's read is wrong. However, based on your use of the word "bullshit" I am interpreting this as you seeing his read on you as malicious/mafia intent. I did not think it was. So what are you seeing that I am not? (Regardless I wouldn't be putting Shockey on my team as of now anyhow.) | ||
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On November 03 2015 00:21 kitaman27 wrote: @HTS what is your opinion on this post? What is the purpose of returning to the thread with this over-explanation when he already admitted that the line of questioning was a dead end. @rayn, you felt that his push on xat was town motivated when it occurred initially. I agreed with you at that time since pushing a player to generate discussion is generally town-motivated. However, do you feel this explanation is legit? At Kita - I know at least one player (Rels) questioned him on his approach to Xata. So him clarifying it is perfectly reasonable in context. I personally had no issues with this post, in fact I liked it. First paragraph also explains his previous behaviour - it's logical and makes sense (talking about the merlin comments). This followup is again, what I'd expect from a town Superbia. | ||
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That is going to put me close to deadline, so I am going to keep my primary submission to what it is now, and then have an alternate submission up ASAP so you people can discuss it before and then I will state what I'm going to do before I get on the plane. If I had to pull myself off the team, it'd be right now - Xata/rayn/Superbia. I'm feeling better about Xata but not as good as with Super/rayn and I don't believe sicklucker and Artanis will bleed town for me in time for deadline or even before I leave Berlin, if I even do. Also I don't feel Rels' TMI argument on superbia is valid, but will double check the rest of his followup. | ||
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On November 03 2015 00:56 Rels wrote: You are making sense. You are wrong concerning rayn. I don't see him asking dumb questions like that. In fact, he gets angry when he's being asked dumb questions. But I agree the "do you really have 4 scumreads ?" was more of an accusation that a dumb question. So you are saying that I'm wrong in my read on rayn (you are implying he's scum, correct?) Why do you think his "are you mafia" is a serious (albeit dumb) question that should be taken serious and such a scumread - and why do you think this offsets the rest of his play (play that does not involve you)? Are you suggesting in any form that I should remove him from my team? | ||
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On November 03 2015 00:43 ShoCkeyy wrote: Mostly everyone is still null for me. The first team still hasn't even gone out yet. What??!?!!?!? I posted my first wave of nominations: rayn/me/Superbia You are getting nothing from: 1 Superbia/Xata interactions 2 Rels interaction with anyone 3 My own interactions There's a lot of content out there. For you to say everyone is null you would have to explain why all of the above comes from both alignments, or why what we're doing gets nothing done for town So you would need to in my book explain possible mafia motivations - at the very least, for me. | ||
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On November 03 2015 01:11 kitaman27 wrote: Actually similar question for HTS regarding super. What about his play makes you think that he is town, rather than a mafia player who realizes the benefit of putting a player on the defensive early? Was there something in particular that stood out that was alignment indicative? Superbia putting players on the defensive from the off is something I've seen him do as town (reference newbie 9) he's done this to me out of nowhere and he's had out of the blue pushes as town to create discussion. When I first read it, it was NAI and then I saw his second post which to me was towny. And then that followup to this make complete sense, to me he came full circle and I saw the explanation for his change on his read whilst reading Xata's filter. I mean if he orchestrated this as mafia, then he's done a bloody good job of it. Also I felt the post you quoted on his breakdown was pretty town, and I argued the context of his argument put him in favour of being town, particularly with how he opened the game. With Superbia being out of the thread, if someone manages to "out-town" him I will certainly take that into account if I feel even more sure of someone else. | ||
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On November 03 2015 01:16 Rels wrote: Man HTS you're not reading properly. Are you on a phone ? First you messed up the TMI stuff, then this: No, I'm not implying he's scum in that post. I'm implying that he wouldn't ask a dumb question. I did it when I said "I don't see him asking dumb questions like that". I don't anymore. I did it when I said "But I agree the "do you really have 4 scumreads ?" was more of an accusation that a dumb question." (actually I did it before, but I restated it in the post you quoted) I didn't suggest anything from the post above. But since you're asking, I would like you to elect Xatalos / kita / me. rayn instead of one of the three could be OK too. And since I suppose the next question will be "but you were suspicious of kita!", I liked his recent posts. How are any of these people more town than rayn? Right now as it stands, I'm almost certainly keeping rayn on, and there's no way I'm ever putting Kita on at this moment (not ever, but at this moment) particularly seeing what I see so far, namely where is he taking his questions? From what I can tell he doesn't like Superbia, last post indicates he's null on me and Xata but the difference I'm trying to resolve there is how Superbia is exclusively mafia. The inactives in this game are also making interchangability difficult and that is not even considering my RL situation today. | ||
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On November 03 2015 01:26 Xatalos wrote: I may have missed something, but why did you say he wouldn't ask dumb questions if you didn't mean he was scum for it? That is exactly what I meant by that. Dumb questions - nowhere - scum implication. >_< | ||
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On November 03 2015 01:31 Rels wrote: It does for rayn, as he gets angry when he's being asked dumb questions; why would he do it as town ? ?????? Why would he do it as town? There's no rhyme or reason to that, he just does, other than he's explicitly said he doesn't deal with stupidity. Or am I misunderstanding you? Why would he do it as town - from context you mean get angry? Holy hell, I think we might be talking around each other. I am finding your posts extremely tenuous this game, and I know I've said that at least once before. | ||
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If you could find a way to bleed town in the next 3-4 hours it would greatly help me. Xx | ||
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On November 03 2015 01:36 Rels wrote: The sentence should read "Why would he ask a dumb question ?" Okay if this is the case, then no rayn wouldn't ask a dumb question as town, but then that takes me back to my previous post about me disagreeing with you that his questions were actually dumb. *throws her hands up in defeat* Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree here. | ||
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On November 03 2015 01:39 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Afraid I'm not gonna be home for another 4 at least so that seems unlikely. Phoneposting atm. Fair enough. Don't work too hard. Or at least I hope the tail end for you is the sport part. | ||
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Yeah I saw that part, but the underlined is what I was referring to. And you said I (my read) at that time was wrong on rayn. And I also interpreted that as you including the "are you mafia" part as a dumb question. Not just even thinking about the 4 scumreads part. Now do you see why we're going about in circles here? | ||
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On November 03 2015 01:43 Rels wrote: Alright leaving work. HTS, I won't vote a team you or Superbia are part of atm. Obviously that could change between now or deadline. I'm OK with Xata / kita / rayn / me. Going to be blunt, that's not happening, Kita is definitely not happening right now, if I swap Superbia out, it's probably going to be for Xata, and right now I'm not sure of anyone else to swap me out unless I went Superbia/Xata/rayn. *yawn* Thankfully this doesn't need to be unanimous. What is concerning is the lack of reads from a lot of people (inactives aside) because other than Rels saying he won't vote for certain teams, not knowing what teams are going to pass makes this doubly difficult. I know where rayn, Rels and Xata stand, kita to a lesser extent, the rest....shit. I'm hoping as the day wears on, we'll see more activity from the NA-based players (or at least I can resolve Kita). If I'm home on time, I should have at least 30m to see if I last minute swap someone. | ||
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On November 03 2015 01:48 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Someone talk to me. I'm lonely Where do you stand on people in general? | ||
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On November 03 2015 01:50 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I actually think shockeyy is kinda scummy for trying to nail rels on changing his reads. Town changes their reads a lot more than scum does and is less careful in general. There is practically zero chance he's getting on my team. What about Superbia/Rels/Xata/Kita or even myself? Any of the more actives? | ||
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On November 03 2015 01:52 Rels wrote: The low blow )= Hope you're not getting delayed too much See you in a few hours folks! Flights are getting delayed for up to 5 hours and this fog is actually looking worse than yesterday was. The further away from London, the worse it is. I'll know if this is going to be shite in another hour or so. I've been on fucking Eurocontrol for updates all day, and I know the fog had been starting to lift at least a few hours ago but there's no change in my status. I'm taking a break from this game for about an hour, we need food here. edited for quotes. | ||
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On November 03 2015 01:54 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Rels/xata/rayn townish, you leaning townish, kita and shockey leaning scummish, don't remember enough about super and sl. Don't recall much on Superbia? interesting. Rest of reads, fair enough. Alright, some food time. Will re-review Rels/Xata and get some alternatives soon after. | ||
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Read Xata. Could swap Superbia out for him. I'll sit on this. Current: raynpelikoneet/Superbia/myself 1st alt: Xata/rayn/myself 2nd alt: TBD Going through Rels again, then Kita/Artanis/Shockey. | ||
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And my proposed lineups? | ||
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And Kita, as for less active players, sicklucker has done jack all, and Shockey I scumread but not for activity, I did pick out what I didn't like about him. Artanis I can go either way - he's inactive so if he was town he wouldn't have good reads, but I cannot rank him above say, rayn. And "missing" for awhile, yeh that is why I am considering alternatives. | ||
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##nominate: Xatalos, raynpelikoneet, Half the Sky | ||
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##nominate: Xatalos, raynpelikoneet, Half the Sky Hoping there'll be more to work with when I'm home. Until later lovelies... | ||
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Give me another 30-45 minutes please - that gives me about 45-60 to give my last thoughts and re-eval one last time. From skimming on mobile, it looks like I'll be changing my noms again, and this time I might actually have a backup in case I feel like pulling myself off the team for any reason. Who knew... | ||
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Funny that, I am finding your posting significantly better and more of the town Kita I recognise. The final noms will change, I am mulling over whom at this point. 30 mins or so folks... | ||
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Still on my way home everyone. | ||
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##nominate: kitaman27, raynpelikoneet, Half the Sky | ||
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On November 03 2015 06:47 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Hello folks! Lex, please tell me you have something of substance to say. Or will soon, at least by the time I get home. | ||
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On November 03 2015 06:31 Rels wrote: I read this post maybe 10 times and I have no idea if it makes sense from a town perspective. It kinda does, but finding town goes in hand with finding scums. Don't know why someone would do almost exclusively one and not the other before the first mission. Don't think this is exclusively mafia indicative. I have seen several instances of townies trying to find all their townreads first even in mini normal and in this setup I would think it is even more viable. As for the criteria for finding those scums, is another matter that may be more alignment indicative and something that Kita did comment on. | ||
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On November 03 2015 06:53 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Not really, I'm kinda looking to be engaged in conversation to actually get the ball rolling and get into the game. .... Right now there's much debate over Superbia/rayn/Xata - that corner of things. Shockey's been back and forth on a few things. Does nothing jump out to you? Or anything that could change your reads? I just updated my noms too. What say you? | ||
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On November 03 2015 06:56 kitaman27 wrote: So you view yourself, me, rayn, super, and xatalos as trustworthy? Not a lot of wiggle room there with the nulls. Kinda similar to what had me concerned with xata earlier. Or did something that xata or super post move them over to your spy list? I don't mind this nomination as much as the other two....but I'd be much more satisfied with it coming back up for vote later on in the first cycle so I'd have a better grasp on you and rayn. Still not thrilled about accepting a team 24 hours into the game. Right now, I'm most certain on you, rayn, superbia. Less so on Xatalos compared to you three but I don't think he's a spy. The three of you - reads are partially based on meta but still conducive to how you have still played this game so far. For tactical reasons I could swap myself out but seeing as there is only one person disputing my inclusion on the team (who I'm not townreading anyways), it makes more sense to keep myself on the team with my two most certain townreads. Also agreed on the 24h thing, IRL really cut into my playing time, but it is what it is. | ||
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On November 03 2015 06:58 kitaman27 wrote: Well you had a scum read on me when you left the thread, now your return, HTS nominates me, and you don't seem that concerned? This so much >_< Which worries me a smidge about Lex....knowing him he generally can't be arsed to play scum (spy) side. | ||
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You know you want to. The category is Kita. The following questions will be about Kita's gameplay and your reads on him and myself. The questions are: What is your read on Kita after his latest series of posts? What is your read on myself after nominating him and/or my listing of who I feel is of the resistance (town)? You have two minutes to answer. You must submit your wager along with your answer. The timer starts now. | ||
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I'll keep on the thread through the final minute, but curious to see the input on Kita being on the team from a few others... | ||
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You initially had me as a town lean with my first wave of proposals. Why is the fear read coming up only now? | ||
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On November 03 2015 07:49 Xatalos wrote: What caused this dramatic shift on kita, HtS? I have to say I liked the previous team better... kita's recent posts were better than what he started with, but not even close enough to say he's "clear". His main point was that I was too focused on townreads... And I don't really see why that makes me suspicious when the main issue is to find town anyway... He was actually your top scum before? How was this enough to change that? It wasn't just his questioning of you, it was also his questioning of everyone. Read the posts that he's done on everyone else. Part of this read is based on meta. He is not a high volume poster as either alignment but as town he gets in thread and picks out critical parts of the thread or things that look off to him and drives discussion of it. The question is, do you think his opinion on you or anything else he has, is Mafia motivated. | ||
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Could pull myself off and go with Rayn/Superbia/Kita. But there are too many people not digging at least one of these as town. | ||
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On November 03 2015 07:55 Xatalos wrote: Besides, some semi-good posts don't really override the way he ignored what was going on and posted random filler throughout the day >.> But oh well... If this is to happen, then so be it. It's not like it's the final team yet. I can actually think of one good reason for his lack of activity early on. It is NAI but it explains his lack of interaction with the thread. | ||
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On November 03 2015 08:37 sicklucker wrote: w/e im just gonna catch later then i have time not alt tab and give it my undivided attention Sooner rather than later would be grand. And me being gone longer....eh, I blame that on my husband. 12:30am now though and I can't stay up for too much longer...figures. | ||
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Good night lovelies. | ||
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On November 03 2015 14:16 raynpelikoneet wrote: HalfTheSky; based on what does Xatalos drop under superbia in your reads? Superbia's last post, the one he mentioned before he was bathing. Post 580 on page 29. | ||
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On November 03 2015 19:24 raynpelikoneet wrote: sorry i misread the question. It basically has to do with me not seeing him playing towards anything.. ugh... idk it is hard to explain, i don't see him having scum agenda, or anything like that behind his posting. Same basically goes to sicklucker. and a part of it has to do with "reverse process of elimination". I am sorry it is really hard to explain, but i am quite sure i am right here. Alright I understand the rationale for SL (partially meta I think) but Artanis (irrespective of schedule which I consider NAI) it was harder to tell since I see his scum game as of late more apathetic/not caring. | ||
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On November 03 2015 19:19 sicklucker wrote: hts how sure are you that im town ATM decent chance. I wish I could have seen a little more from you admittedly as I was picking the teams. You could be breaking meta but ATM as scum I think you are more likely to pull a Guardians and shit up the thread. IDK. | ||
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On November 03 2015 19:45 Half the Sky wrote: ATM decent chance. I wish I could have seen a little more from you admittedly as I was picking the teams. You could be breaking meta but ATM as scum I think you are more likely to pull a Guardians and shit up the thread. IDK. also unless I missed it did you have any reads besides Rayn? | ||
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If my current team fails, no big deal, I think if it failing helps figure more people out, that's probably better instead of getting a surprise sabotage and already losing one of our three chances. As for me being more clear on Superbia, that comes down to me being much more familiar with Superbia's town game than Xatalos (as I said before I have never played a game with Xatalos as town) so if you are saying the read is flawed, great, but it's not maliciously flawed. I think I've said before in multiple games that I've played with you (rayn) that people not agreeing with you or seeing the same things as you doesn't mean they are mafia (or a spy in this case). If you're arguing that I'm not being transparent about my reads or something of that sort, then you have an entirely different argument on your hands as to why I might be a spy. | ||
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On November 03 2015 22:06 Xatalos wrote: I guess that makes sense.... I mean, clearing then with PoE / lack of scum agenda. At least for now. I think Artanis could be genuinely busy as either alignment, so that's not really a sure thing? That's why he's still a null for me. I'll probably have a more concrete read on him based on what he does on Thursday (the day he says he'll still be around). I have talked with him out of game re: his job/capoeira/sport so it's certainly true, but separate from what he puts in here. That said based on any game-relevant information he has I'd need to see something firmer based on what I do know of his scum play, which is generally lacklustre. | ||
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On November 03 2015 22:11 raynpelikoneet wrote: I would still like you HtS to explain why kitaman is town. Pretty sure I did through the course of things, but sure will do again. Basically I had gone though his filter and I'm seeing points where he's driving the discussion pretty constructively. #455 is a good example of this to a response from Xatalos that would appear somewhat worded vaguely "like solving the game" where he's asking him to substantiate his read. He did the same thing to me in #458, the followups were there re: Superbia. The other posts that I liked were 569 and anything he mentioned after the nominations went through. The responses to Xatalos re: Superbia were spot on - the latter was not engaged constantly with the thread and from what I can tell those questions would appear to me as trying to figure Xata's alignment since he's obviously said he's not sold on him. | ||
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On November 03 2015 22:20 sicklucker wrote: yo xataloser is a bad guy Why? | ||
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On November 03 2015 22:21 raynpelikoneet wrote: HtS here is another question to you: Here is what has happened regarding ShoCkeyy and his reads. He calls me scum. People point out how his reasoning is flawed. This makes him call ALSO Xatalos scum. Now okay, he thinks i am scum and Xatalos is scum, therefore he refuses a team of HtS/rayn/Xatalos. Logicwise this could make sense but the next thing he says is "at least switch rayn to Superbia so we know who is scum if the mission fails". This doesn't make any sense as town as: 1) If he reads Xatalos scum, he should want to swap BOTH of me and Xatalos from that team 2) therefore the only logical explanation for me is (if he actually wants to push a team of his liking and not just say something) that he needs scum there -> and that scum would be Superbia. Now i know this is unflipped association but you cannot basically deny that this is possible, and even likely. There is really nothing but unflipped associations in Resistance, and that is the only way i can see that (logically) making sense. Noone should ever push a team with scum in it unless they can logically explain it -- and "at least we know who is scum" is not a logical explanation for picking a team where there is scum over all town team. I don't disagree with this. Regarding the read on you, after we pointed out his flaws in meta, he should have gone to the database and at least seen where he could be wrong before proceeding, at least that would be my expectation. And yes I did check out that one round game. I agree with #1, that makes sense. I also don't like blowing one of our three chances to "test" out who is scum, also I've played Resistance much enough that even if there was a scum in the first team, most spies (at least in IRL for me) will pass the first mission so as not to give themselves away. (If this is not the case in forum resistance, then ignore this point.) Between that and his other reads I wasn't ever keen near term with a team with him on it. | ||
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On November 03 2015 22:24 sicklucker wrote: he failed my omgus test where I omgus people who put doubt on my not giving a fuck. I call it plan no give a fuck And you are saying that's unreasonable for town? | ||
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On November 03 2015 22:23 raynpelikoneet wrote: As you seem to be relying heavily on meta -- at least here on Xatalos and Superbia (basically the whole read of yours on both of them is based on meta), why are you not relying on meta on kitaman. A couple of questions regarding this: - Do you think kitaman is incapable of making those kinda posts as scum? - Do you think kitaman's play does not make sense as scum (see my post towards him a couple of pages ago)? - Do you think kitaman has hard reads and is taking hard stances? If so, who would you say he thinks is scum and why? First question, admittedly no. Actually early on, I was pressuing him because I wasn't seeing town Kita (read: meta). Kita is a capable player as mafia. Quite. I am aware of that. I'll look at your post again a couple of pages ago but if I recall the right post - I would not take the position that Xatalos is exclusively mafia for not having any mafia reads but at the same time, he's not the first person in TL to scumread someone for not having any scumreads. When I was reading his filter - did he explicitly say "X is (alignment), Y is (this alignment)," no he didn't and if that's what you are looking for, I can understand why you are scumreading him. But in going through his posts on various people, it was pretty easy to tell for me from context who he was townreading or not as strongly. I know I even commented on that somewhere earlier in this game too. So if people want to reject this team for that reason, that's fine. If people want to fear read Kita, I get that. | ||
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#413/426: scum read on Superbia - first paragraph suggests he has a spy agenda. Followed up with questions. Continues to state his problems with Superbia after his long post on Xata. so that was consistent. #455: Initial null read on me since he clearly sees my actions from either alignment. #599: suggesting a scum lean on Artanis, but knowing that Artanis is largely afk, I could take that one with a gain of salt. This is how I interpreted that. That said I can't argue with you that Xatalos has more reads period than him. And I also conceded that fundamentally it's not a crime to find all your townies first. I'll go through filter again and look for possible mafia motivations. The team from what I can tell will probably not pass largely because of Kita being on the team although I know two people won't pass a team with me on it (but whatever) but it can't hurt to do this and if there's enough I missed to give me caution at least I can point it out and hopefully future leaders won't include him. | ||
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That's Kita casing Xata's reads, not Kita's own reads. | ||
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On November 03 2015 22:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: Like i couldn't give any less fucks about this "now this guy looks a bit better" or "now this guy looks a bit worse" and yes, it kinda implies you think something of their alignment. So does Xatalos' posting. So saying kitaman's posting does imply that and his "case" on Xatalos (=Xatalos' posting doesn't imply that) is just aa bunch of bullshit. I'm assuming that post was aimed at me - fine. Like I said if you wanted him to explicitly say that, that's completely fine to vote him down. And his post on Xatalos like I said is flawed in the sense that townies can try to find townies first. And I don't think that's even what Kita was trying to say (bolded the sentence that doesn't make sense) - he was scumreading him for not having scumreads, not because his reads were vague. I don't think I'm misunderstanding there. | ||
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On November 03 2015 22:50 raynpelikoneet wrote: Do you think he read that post or the thread closely? I mean like if he did read that post closely and misread it maybe... just maybe... it would strike him odd that kitaman scumreads himself in that post. :p Probably not. | ||
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On November 03 2015 22:37 ShoCkeyy wrote: Yea sure why not, I have a better feeling about kitaman and rels than I do of you... Kita's getting discussed to death now, but Rels....how? | ||
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I know where rayn is coming from with Artanis/SL, but I agree with you that Artanis could be either alignment and sicklucker saying you're spy for omgus-like reasons....I don't know about the latter. | ||
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On November 03 2015 22:58 raynpelikoneet wrote: What does this mean? Like if you read someone's post properly (let's assume you can misread and think those are kitaman's reads) and actually think about the motivation behind the reads and the post, you come across the sentence that says "kitaman - scum", that doesn't make you ask yourself "wtf"? ???? Probably not as in he didn't read either the post or thread closely. Not disputing that. | ||
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On November 03 2015 23:09 Xatalos wrote: There's still time to decide the next team. If we go for the full-town team, then sure, I'll most likely include rayn... And we'll have to decide the third member. But rayn gave good reasons for proposing the full-scum (2/3 scum) team - lots of pressure on the whole team - and there are additional reasons having to do with miscommunications within the scumteam and such, so it might be better to propose that next. The only thing I cannot follow from that strategically is how do you progress from throwing multiple scum on one team - let's say if they fuck up on their end and all pass the mission - then what? Still scrap that team or how do you know it won't mess the townies up as in someone's bound to make the argument "well we passed, how do you argue multiple of us are scum" IDK. I have to get back to work but I'll just re-read again. Like I said, having done this in real life, I've never had a situation where resistance used a mission to ferret out someone who we knew was scum so something probably isn't clicking... | ||
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First, none of what you said has made me mafia. Zero. From RL resistance, there are situations where you don't want to have yourself on the team. There is nothing wrong with pushing to get the team you have accepted (even without yourself on it) provided you have the right thinking - yes you are obviously most sure of yourself, there's no denying that, but if you put someone else on, a good town will take you to task to make sure you aren't putting a scumbuddy on. I am not oblivious to that fact. If you're town, which I am, and there's a group that doesn't trust you on the team, the only way you're going to show that you are town or even get people to remotely trust you is to go scumhunting and put up three people that you've done some reliable legwork on, show you don't have an agenda as to who you are putting up. There's nothing wrong with swapping yourself out for people that are more universally townread provided you have a basis for doing so. If you cannot sell yourself for being on the team for whatever reason or if people are less sure of you as opposed to others then that is one of a few arguments to not have yourself on a team. If I want to test out a group of people (not the case here as it's the first mission) to try and PoE someone that's another reason to leave yourself off since you know what you are. Is it suboptimal? In some cases, yes. Is it risky? Of course, you're most sure of yourself. Does it make someone mafia? LOL no. It's not rocket science. If people can't see what you're working with then that's on the rest of town (just as how a lynched townie and the town shame some proportion of blame). If anyone wants to argue that I do have an agenda in who I am putting up or my reads are malicious, etc etc that's different but that isn't the argument you are making. My concern isn't really looking good - I've said at least twice now that if my team fails, big deal. My concern is being transparent enough to be read as town and if I can't get on teams, make sure the right people do. *yawn* rayn is fine asking me to provide multiple reads. I saw nothing wrong with that. It will be critical for future missions when we need more people. And once my teams were posted anyone can read the thread, follow up that no one is going to see it get passed and there's nothing wrong or mafia about talking about the next team and utilising your time so that the first mission is assembled right. I can't change my lineup and the discussion on Kita (between rayn/Xata/myself) as to why Kita wasn't a safe pick was fine as discussions on the next team. There is no reason that in of itself makes anyone mafia. It is entirely possible that in this next 24 hours I may find a reason to doubt my own picks. (Less time to decide the teams (24 hours) means that the chances of the team being flawed is higher than our standard 48 hour timeframes to lynch mafia in our normal games.) The first mission is really important to get right if you know the mechanics of resistance, there were 7h left in the phase, thread isn't as collectively active as it could be at points, so I'm working with what I have. If I want to think ahead to the next phase, there's no reason that makes anyone mafia, me or whoever. Maybe you have never played Resistance, but wow, I didn't think you'd bottom out like that, but somehow you managed to prove me wrong. Even rayn said earlier that there are situations you don't want to have yourself on the team so I'm surprised (unless I missed it) you haven't jumped on that point at the time it was made. Not surprised though, considering you are likely a spy. *yawn* | ||
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On November 04 2015 01:55 Xatalos wrote: Kita only attacked scummy players in that game then, or what? Didn't you just say that he makes sense as either alignment..? I think there's a fair scum motivation for pushing "odd" reads to manipulate the mission team selections.. Well if towny players act scummy it makes it easier to push them as a bad guy be it this game or regular mafia. *shrug* | ||
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On November 04 2015 02:00 Xatalos wrote: Hmm.. Well, I'd say it's not 100% good to always include yourself on missions, but it's still a bit odd that you were more concerned about having an approved team than a team with the highest chances of success (meaning that you'd be included, and rather trusting your reads over the consensus)? Here's the thing. Not everyone had the same reads on everyone. I could include myself with say, Superbia/Xata/whoever, and even if they trust me and don't trust the remaining team members, the team won't pass. You can have whatever reads you have on people but if you cannot sell them or if the people can't sell themselves, the team won't pass. Maybe I'm not being articulate on this, and maybe I'm making it harder for myself but at the end I kept myself on. Still it comes down to the argument that it doesn't make me a spy and the problem with Rels' argument is that he's trying to classify this behaviour as exclusively mafia. That's mainly what I'm trying to say. And I made sure my thoughts were out there too because I have nothing to hide. Rels trying to classify that as mafia motivated is hilariously bad. | ||
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I said before that I don't understand rayn's alternative strategy because it deviates from how I'm used to RL play. Ignoring numbers I would think it's easier, much easier to find 2-3 townreads and get the first mission passed, which is the easiest - it requires the least number of people, etc. I also proposed a counterpoint/what-if scenario relying on the scumteam Based on rayn's first cycle play I am still inclined to think he's town. But isolating the scumreads I think is much harder let alone put them all on a single mission team. If you mess up even one townie on that first team, you make it harder for yourself when you need more town/resistance on larger teams. That is the part that seems counterintuitive to me. | ||
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1 Above team is fine by me. Would vote yes. No issues with any of Xata's explanations on his team selection. 2 I will vote down any team with Rels on it (and almost certainly will be ignoring him as mafia onwards until something to the contrary jumps at me) assuming we are sticking to the conventional approach of nailing the first mission with three town. 3 I passed/scrapped my team to buy more time. 4 Artanis I think you need to re-read my filter. Unless I'm misunderstanding, you had a fear read on me before, not the other way around. my stance on your alignment is null because your RL situation is NAI and I needed more content to re-evaluate you. Seeing as you've posted more content, I'll re-evaluate after work. 5 Regarding the comments on defensiveness my argument is that for someone normally considered a very good town player Rels is scum reading me for things that do not make me Mafia. The basis for his position is actually pretty poor IMO with the caveat he has never played the game so this could explain (if somehow he's actually town) why he's seeing some things the way he is. | ||
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As for the association thing, at least when I play in real life, you use deductive reasoning from the most concrete evidence, that being based on whether people upvoted or vetoed the team put up for mission and whether the mission was sabotaged. IRL we usually query anyone that votes no on any mission team. If a mission has been sabotaged resistance try and work backwards based on previous missions as well as if there is any recollection of whether certain people on the failed missions upvoted certain missions or not. | ||
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Going to catch-up/cram 1-2h on this when I get home...because I get to do it all over again tomorrow working 0800-2200 again.... (read: another sporadic as shit day) Someone vig me please. | ||
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On November 05 2015 07:16 Half the Sky wrote: Just skimming I'd rec swapping SL for Artanis but I'll confirm when I do the deep diving. EBWOP Explanation being Artanis seems town from latest round of posting and bit more confident than him than of SL. Obv need to make sure I didn't miss anything. | ||
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On November 05 2015 07:20 Rels wrote: Can't believe I agree with HTS. If deadline was right now, I wouldn't vote a team with SL, I would vote a team with Arta. What temperature is it in hell again? | ||
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I'm not saying he's scum but just saying that's how you should meta him. | ||
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On November 05 2015 07:39 Xatalos wrote: Decisions, decisions.... Gut still says SL. In any case, it's not like Artanis or Superbia are probable scum either... Will probably go with SL and hope he appears tomorrow to do some good stuff. If not, we can just reject the team and go with Artanis anyway since he's apparently next... Why are you hoping someone will show town instead of someone that already has? The rationale doesn't make sense. | ||
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On November 05 2015 08:03 Superbia wrote: This one is probably going to get rejected straight out bc there's a good chance SL will just continue to lurk. =/ Artanis would've gotten some votes. That was semi-what I was getting at in my last query to Xatalos. Eh... I'm a bit settled so now I can really do some serious reading before bed... | ||
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On November 05 2015 08:20 kitaman27 wrote: lol this game is really going to drag on isn't it. Two down, twenty three to go. XD Need to play hangman or something. I don't get it... (still reading) | ||
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On November 04 2015 23:46 kitaman27 wrote: Even though the last game he is referring to with this chart was how he tricked people to trust him as mafia? Kita, what game do you mean? | ||
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Imperial (he pulled this in Imperial? I know he carried like a boss and will prob win the mafia performance of the year, but I don't remember a chart????) NSM 6 - he didn't do jack all in that game from what I recall and I know as I replaced out that game. I think you had the wrong person Kita? | ||
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eh....no change on my reads on Artanis. Reading pages 3-4 of his filter and not really finding any mafia motivation in his posts. Reading his queries (993/998) on Superbia and probably will read Superbia a bit closely now... | ||
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On November 05 2015 08:25 kitaman27 wrote: That ship has sailed. He was actually town. Was curious if someone would take a look at the game to draw conclusions and say something along the lines of "wait a minute, Artanis was actually town that game!" for free town points. Probably a long shot anyways. Yeh yeh, my mistake, I am sort of trying to catch up before I go to bed. I'm not sure how I feel about the sicklucker inclusion right now, because at this stage I feel there's a decent chunk of information that a more towny team could have been put up and sicklucker's inclusion is still (whilst I lean town still on him) weaker than Artanis. rayn is a townread so I get his point wasn't likely mafia motivated but I'm sort of still stuck on why you'd use the nomination to motivate someone who has been lurking and (if scum and people are wrong on him) could be disastrous. Maybe a scum sicklucker might pass this one and fail another later on (yes folks I brought this up before don't shoot me) who knows. I realise this is all hypothetical but I just didn't understand the rationale for keeping the team the way it was. Meh. We'll see what SL does the next 24 hours...at the very least, make it somewhat easier to determine your alignment? | ||
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On November 05 2015 01:27 Artanis[Xp] wrote: He's either mad because he's scum in which case you have no reason to be mad at him for playing to his win condition, or he's mad because he's being tunneled wrongfully. Neither is really anything you should be mad at him about. I think he might be town because he seems to really believe in what he's saying. I don't think there's any other reason to stretch it as much as he has. Read Superbia's interactions with Rels. Read his posts multiple times and this is where I am with the former (above) on that latest exchange. Reading on... | ||
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On November 05 2015 01:43 Superbia wrote: I'm not sure what SL's scum-play is there days. I think it's usually pretty easy to read him if he's not lurking. The fact that he's not coming up with weird ass logic/strategies this game is troubling. Yeh this is what is making it a bit difficult for me to be a little more confident on him as either alignment. I think of his town games like JOAT, NSM 9 (that game he was a bit more illogical and he almost got policy lynched day 3!!!) and in his scum games (TL LXX, Void, Drams, a few others) he does get in there and shit up the thread. I think if I remember LXX and Void especially correctly there was some content in there with intent to deceive and I think this is how Holyflare caught him both those games, but he was between that and a series of illogical crap. It's taken me 10+ games to try and read him a bit more reliably in general, but this game, this is the least I've seen him post as either alignment. 2+ pages so far... | ||
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On November 05 2015 08:56 kitaman27 wrote: You don't need give details or anything, but where would you everyone one through nine in terms of trustworthiness? With nine being most trustworthy kitaman27 6 ShoCkeyy 2 at most Rels - um, zero? Artanis[Xp] 7-8 Xatalos 7 Superbia 6 raynpelikoneet - 8-9 sicklucker 5 at most (although I'm atm trying to evaluate him on what he does have...) I am aware that Rels, you, Superbia have pretty damned capable scum games so there is some caution with some of the ratings. | ||
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On November 04 2015 20:35 sicklucker wrote: Its also not me being biased the chart says were the top 3 towns more or less as no one scum reads us. I know you town read artanis so from your pov if your town submitting that team makes sense. No one understands the logic of putting yourself in the team better then me but you also need that team to pass and its only attempt 2 of 5 so people are still very picky like me. Also if the said mission passes it would make a likely town circle of 4 people rather then 3 im not totally sure the mechanics but that seems like a good spot to be in. Hmmm somewhat dangerous sentiment if we might be collectively wrong on one player. Eh....could be reading too much into this. But in post 917, he says he's going to veto any Xatalos (I assume he infers on the team Xatalos being on the team). So how does he know or realise - from his own POV - he wouldn't submit a scumbuddy and then goes to say that it's a "likely" town circle of 4 instead of 3 when it's possible (again I bring this point up from before) that someone who passes a first mission who is spy can always fail a subsequent mission later. If he doesn't trust Xatalos on a team and then suggests Artanis wouldn't have the balls to fail it then he jumps to a likely town circle of 4 people.... ....it's quite illogical. Mafia motivated? Thoughts? | ||
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On November 05 2015 09:10 ShoCkeyy wrote: Trying to play ketchup, still at the office, will be driving soon, ughhh.... an hour commute gg. Other than that, can I get a quick list of the next team that will be up for voting? Xata/rayn/sicklucker The gist is that sicklucker is somewhat contentious on having been inactive but I am personally trying to pick through what he does have in his filter and see if there are any legit red flags. Some people didn't like Xata either but I'll let those who more object to him bring that side of it up. | ||
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On November 05 2015 08:12 sicklucker wrote: BUT I AM. LIKE I CAME UP WITH SOME PRETTY CRAZY SHIT I agreed with Superbia on this tbh, and I discussed some of the play from both town and mafia games I remember of you. I cannot easily say you are one alignment over another based on your current play this game but you are a lot more difficult to read as a result, so I don't see how Superbia's comment here is an issue that you made it out to be (per your filter). | ||
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On November 05 2015 09:17 Half the Sky wrote: I agreed with Superbia on this tbh, and I discussed some of the play from both town and mafia games I remember of you. I cannot easily say you are one alignment over another based on your current play this game but you are a lot more difficult to read as a result, so I don't see how Superbia's comment here is an issue that you made it out to be (per your filter). EBWOP - for clarification, I am leaning town, but what I meant to say is that I cannot more confidently read you as town (a hard town read). | ||
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sicklucker, post #1163 please...or whatever people are taking you to task for, probably going to affect honestly whether people vote the team with you up or down tbh. Good night lovelies. | ||
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And re: Shockey's post you quoted, um yeah, if you are playing the conventional resistance strategy you want the first mission to pass as much as possible. So the explanation should have otherwise been why he felt the first team was all town. Several people now have taken issue with the alternate strategy. | ||
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On November 05 2015 22:01 Xatalos wrote: Admittedly, his reads are pretty hard to make sense of. Further explanation would be nice. Well apparently not for rayn (or Superbia IIRC), of course there can only be one rayn. | ||
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On November 05 2015 21:57 Xatalos wrote: It's more that he was voting yes when his reads were (at least I think so) only rayn being suspect on the team.... I could understand if he scumread the whole team, but... That's just the worst possible outcome he went for. Did I miss something? Or probably misread...eh maybe I might have to filter dive one more time then around dinner. Still swamped today otherwise at work and probably will only leave the office 2100 at the earliest. | ||
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It was their most recent posts that I cited at the time, and yes I looked at both possible angles for those posts (mafia or town mindset) and being familiar with their town games I felt those respective posts were town. (There are game mechanics posts from Kita before and after the fact that I felt could come from either alignment but those were not the ones in question.) | ||
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Which means if he drops by in the UK, his first objective will be to dropkick me. Damn it. | ||
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On November 05 2015 22:28 Xatalos wrote: Ok... Though if you say they have "amazing scumgames", it's a bit difficult to see why they couldn't just post a couple of townish-looking posts in a short period of time.. The thing I took into consideration here is that they are both low-volume posters relative to most players on TL. Kita especially. They will not spam all day and not post unless they need to. Superbia will spam more if he's actually got time or (as I remember in NSM9) he gets in an argument - I remember both of us having a pretty lengthy town on town argument and I just kept point by point arguing with him as I threatened to get him lynched. (And then at some point I dropped it when he explained things that couldn't possibly come from a mafia mindset.) | ||
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On November 06 2015 06:52 Rels wrote: On my bed right now; will post the day post in my game then sleep. So I'm still there 10 minutes for additional questions. I think the team is some kind of rayn / Hts / superbia / sl. Xata and kita are town. I think arta and shockey are town, but I would like to see more from both of them. Still at Rels/Shockey/TBD but I know I have to catch up. Referenced to figure out the last partner. Also nice because if I'm wrong on one of my townreads, this could be a good place to start too. sicklucker still not saying much? I see he answered my question fine but I think Artanis or Kita had followups that he didn't answer. Shockey (in skimming) not saying much as a scum tell might indicate he's trying to not give partners away. Someone else had a question for me - rayn? or was it Artanis? damn I hate mobile. If Rels is scumlisting SL though, it probably means he'll be voting down the team (at least based on his most recent posts) and SL is town. Which means the final mafia would point me in the direction of Kita/Xata/Artanis (wtf maybe I'm wrong somewhere??) or he's just scumlisting Superbia to disassociate from him since Superbia isn't on the team. | ||
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So SL is doing jack shit and Rels isn't digging SL. SL has never been logical or together really, as either alignment. Ugh, I need to get on my desktop. I think at this point I'm confident I'm doing the right thing with my vote though. | ||
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On November 06 2015 02:15 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Nope, I'm gonna mostly have time for the next four hours. I may drop by to dropkick you anyway though *cry* On November 06 2015 02:23 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I'm not sure how this Lines up with this: When before, your read on me was this: And you never expanded on the change of your read on me. What made you confident I was town and why? Damn I need to be able to quote off the desktop but that first quote you listed Lex, was definitely AFTER yesterday (I believe) I skimmed the thread and said for Xata to switch SL out for you because I felt you were more town, and then from THAT I went to "no change in my reads on Artanis" - it was not an unexplained change in read, but I did say I was skimming so chances are on mobile I did not actually quote what made me think you were town. I just remember skimming the thread, liking your latest round of posts, and then pushing you to be on the team over sicklucker, but then rayn just assumed all the scum were pushing for you to be on the team. So you were more towny at the time I said no change. I remember this because I was getting the same read as Rels on you and I asked him what temperature it was in hell. Capisce? | ||
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Null on everyone else. Probably means I don't have to worry about a spy Xatalos fooling us all, with the third scum being Superbia/Kita, Artanis/sicklucker per this association is a longshot. This also means though I'm wrong on a townread though, and I'm now not sure whom without filter diving. It's one of Superbia or Kita, Rels is either defending scum Kita or disassociating from Superbia. If I had to tinfoil Kita, the former makes sense considering the early case on Xatalos. But now we have some queries on Rels. Hmmmm. The problem is, if sicklucker is mafia, and Rels is using reverse psychology on us, then this whole thing is blown out of the water. But Ockham's razor indicates SL is town, so I think that's what I'm going to hold for now, unless something else indicates otherwise. Random thoughts. Still on mobile, can't filter dive too easily. | ||
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sicklucker is probably town. Forgot for a second. | ||
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Self-meta as in he's aware and he easily has the ability to break that. | ||
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On November 06 2015 01:10 ShoCkeyy wrote: Hmmm rayn is starting to get mad again... Do you think this is alignment indicative? | ||
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So we have a scumteam of Rels/Shockey and one of Kita/Superbia. At least it's looking that way. I'm thinking Artanis should nominate himself, rayn and Xatalos. That is my first impression. | ||
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On November 06 2015 08:05 kitaman27 wrote: We'd be up to four for the next mission. I'm an idiot. The easy answer here would be that I'd throw myself on, but the team would never pass. Probably sicklucker as the fourth then, but this team narrowly passed. Then again, people would pass sicklucker and assuming this mission doesn't get sabotaged then it should be SL/Artanis/Xatalos/rayn. | ||
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On November 06 2015 08:06 Superbia wrote: There's literally no point in voting yes? Like look at the next on the leader circulation. I'd rather get as much voting logic as possible. I looked through your filter. You have sicklucker as a scumread so that makes some sense. But your last sentence here indicates you might just keep downvoting for more logic or...since you would appear to be townreading rayn/Artanis. | ||
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On November 06 2015 08:05 Half the Sky wrote: Superbia, why did you vote it down? Unless it's already apparent in your filter and I just need to open another tab on mobile... Actually I should be asking Kita this same question. Kita, why? | ||
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Weekend will afford me more time to this game, surely. | ||
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I'd say at least 2. I think maayyyybe one was smart enough to suck it up and pass? Could be SL for all we know. And that's a really good question to Shockey, Xata. | ||
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On November 06 2015 08:50 Xatalos wrote: How would it make sense for only scum SL to pass and for the others to reject? Wouldn't they want him on the mission? Disassociation. Obviously this violates Ockham's razor but it's something to come back to in the event of a sabotage. | ||
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I'll just keep my tinfoil hat but hopefully I won't need it Xata I'm just hoping we can get a good core of 4 that will pass reliably. If people don't trust me to be on the team, then I'm hoping I can figure out the final town player if we go to the five person missions. | ||
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Unless I pass out... >_< | ||
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SL/Xata/rayn = 1 spy Rels/shockey/Superbia/Kita/Artanis = 2 spies Latest voting results: On November 06 2015 08:00 Tictock wrote: Day 1 Xatalos Nomination (Xatalos, rayn, sicklucker) Vote Result Half the Sky - YES Xatalos - YES Artanis[Xp] - YES raynpelikoneet - YES ShoCkeyy - NO Rels - NO sicklucker - YES kitaman27 - NO Superbia - NO MISSION IS APPROVED Xatalos, raynpelikoneet, and sicklucker will be embarking on Mission 1 Mission will be completed in at 23:00 GMT (+00:00) on 6 November 2015. | ||
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The one spy possibility being Artanis and one of the nos. | ||
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On November 07 2015 08:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: We don't know that. There could be 2 spies in the first mission. Also, I guess we're not sending the same mission + me then. Huh. LOL no. Eh, in the actual resistance we know the number of sabotages, but I guess that's not the case here. NVM. | ||
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I was going to say.... My head is spinning. Alright, then my previous statements are true. Silly protoss! <3 | ||
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On November 07 2015 08:19 Half the Sky wrote: So at least from the above we know that at least one, possibly two spies voted no. Interesting. The one spy possibility being Artanis and one of the nos. | ||
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Kita had some case on Xata, although Rels metaed him by activity and the activity supported him being town. I'd follow up the depth of Xata's reads - the more shallow, the more likely mafia. And then rayn, looking at his play from a mafia lens...I know he was going at it with Rels and going at it with I think Kita? Time for filter diving. | ||
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On November 07 2015 08:23 kitaman27 wrote: One idea that I'm toying with is a Xata + Artanis team. It made much more sense for a town Xata to nominate Artanis from his position I would think. Him not doing so may suggest that he didn't want a double spy team day one. Need to evaluate if his reasoning to nominate SL over Artanis makes sense. I remember this - this I didn't like. But rayn kept saying no no the scummers (his reference I presume to Rels/Superbia/me) didn't want SL and wanted Artanis instead. it was rayn who really pushed SL at the end. | ||
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On November 07 2015 08:26 Superbia wrote: Actually leaning on TMI in my mind atm, but I'll re-eval your filter somewhere tomorrow. llllllllllooooooooooooooolllllllllllllllllllllllllll seriously though Shockey I broke down the numbers....you're not off the hook given what I said about the breakdown of spies. whom were you scumreading? rayn/xata right? hmmmmm. | ||
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On November 07 2015 08:23 Artanis[Xp] wrote: You do realize one of the spies could've voted pass, right? Read the operative post - Fidei explicitly says there was one sabotage - or do you mean there were two people on the mission and one passed and one failed? | ||
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Yeah I need to stop playing this game at late hours when I'm dead.....oh well :/ | ||
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Forget it, I'm just going to filter dive rayn/xata... | ||
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Does it make sense for a town rayn to read Superbia that way? That's probably the first question to think hard on. We all know that when rayn is town, he's nitpicky over semantics. As mafia....I honestly don't remember. I know the rage level is the same, the last mafia game I recall (TL LXX before he replaced out) I don't recall a lot of nitpicking but I might need to refresh my memory, that game was in March. Ugh. Does anyone else recall any notable rayn scum games where he was close to replicate town play? First wave of reads: On November 02 2015 18:21 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay i am gonna stop this conversation now as it's waste of time. I think both of Superbia and Xatalos are town. I don't see any reason to think otherwise. Artanis and sicklucker said nothing alignemnt indicative. Rels and kitaman are suspicious. Rels because he is refusing to read people. kitaman because he is talking about setup which is a big no-no in this game unless you are scum and want to give advice to your teammates, like "this is something i would not recommend to do". And that's all he said, except for; So; "I think people who claim town are more likely to be scum, but i don't really know if that's true" hmmm... what?!?! | ||
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Onwards... | ||
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On November 07 2015 18:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: Why do people talk about stuff that never happened? Especially HtS. I don't say things for the hell of it, rayn. Operative quotes. On November 05 2015 07:51 raynpelikoneet wrote: All the scum ppl dont want sl so he is a good pick. On November 05 2015 10:47 raynpelikoneet wrote: Fuck you are so town sl. | ||
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I was in the middle of reading rayn's filter when I collapsed in bed. As for the points I raised on rayn, I am NOT scumreading rayn, but when the first mission fails I want to make sure that we don't blindly go with a xata/rayn team and then fail mission 2. rayn, I know from history you never take well to being scumread, but that's really all that was trying to achieve. Kita is saying my first two points don't make rayn mafia - that's fine - but I'd rather have some discussion on that then blindly stumbling into the next team. People seem to be scumreading me either because they are not clear on how I am playing this game, or in the case of Rels if he is somehow town, not familiar with how Resistance works. Kita or whoever asked me about why I voted SL - I was 60/40 on him, and I certainly would have voted him over say Rels. Alright, lemme just plod along here and see what I can do. | ||
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On November 07 2015 08:55 kitaman27 wrote: HTS could you go over why you had a town read on SL again? What do you think about SL's reads on Xata and Superbia? Also, if you prefered Xata/rayn/artanis over Xata/rayn/SL why not simply reject the nomination? You knew Aratanis was the next mission leader, right? Eh, hold on I forgot this part, that was the part I didn't have time to attend to last night, even though I thought SL satisfactory answered my own question. | ||
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On November 07 2015 20:44 raynpelikoneet wrote: You somehow just completely forgot about these posts right? Last two days I had a grand total of 1 hour (maybe a little extra) to play this game - it's very likely I didn't even get a chance to read/refresh these posts. | ||
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On November 05 2015 09:43 sicklucker wrote: like if xata picks the team i want (he did kinda) that proves to me i can probably trust him On November 05 2015 09:45 sicklucker wrote: IF XATA puts up 3 towns and the mission passes without putting up himself. this like 100% proves hes town and thats why I suggested he do it. kinda annoyed he didnt do it but other things suggest hes town so ill go with it. Xata town read all 3 of us so I was very curious if he would do it. its kind of suspect he didnt tbh but im town reading him on other things On November 05 2015 09:46 sicklucker wrote: like i would never put up a team that didnt include me so its hard to be mad at xata for it On November 07 2015 11:09 sicklucker wrote: and xata if you are the town here oyu realize when you say you want you and rayn on the next mission I have to suspect you. because from my pov I 100% know that mission wil fail. Like your willing to put rayn in the next mission even tho hes scum 50% of the time mathematically. Like if your town your so stupid I dont want either of you on the next mission and theres no way you should. Thats why xata is the scum here. HE WANTS RAYN ON THE MISSION from xatas pov one of me or rayn is mafia. so rayn is mafia 50% of the time. and he wants rayn on the mission... Like no one can have that good of a town read The progression makes sense at least for the Xata read - need to review the Superbia read. | ||
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On November 07 2015 21:00 raynpelikoneet wrote: Like i literally can't understand the logic behind: Before the mission result: "I think the team is all town but if it fails sicklucker is probably scum" After the mission result: "Well NOW THAT THE MISSION FAILED time to re-evaluate all the three people" It doesn't make any sense. For the amount of games you've played on TL, it still surprises me you're completely oblivious to the fact that townies do illogical/suboptimal things from time to time. | ||
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On November 07 2015 21:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: So your explanation for doing illogical things is that "townies do illogical things"? Not all the time, but I'm saying it happens, and looking at my filter it should be pretty damn obvious context-wise as to why I'm playing suboptimally. If you want to dismiss that, that's on you. Honestly if this were a lynch game, my getting lynched would tell you something just as what happened when the first two people in Drams got mislynched and you nearly went off the deep end - to use an example coolTLname being very new to our way of doing mafia. Context, which you habitually disregard - no it doesn't make you mafia but this is just something that is characteristic of your gameplay in general. | ||
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On November 07 2015 08:22 kitaman27 wrote: I'll try to make it as simple as possible: 1) Superbia says that the team will get rejected because artanis should have been chosen instead of SL 2) You call Superbia for wanting to reject the all town team 3) The all town team that you claim to have been referring to was SL/rayn/artanis, rather than SL/rayn/xat How could 3 be true if he is clearly stating that he wanted artanis instead of SL? Kita, I'm assuming this is the post you are calling into question on SL's read on Superbia. For reference. Back to the filter... The "I don't understand English" is something I'm willing to believe, it was either in Drams or another game SL confirmed he was from Quebec and his English wasn't great. | ||
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On November 07 2015 21:17 raynpelikoneet wrote: The thing is scummy things are scummy. If a townie does scummy things it is their fault. In the last resistance game i played a townie nomninated a team they should know (by their own poe they pointed out) that there is scum in that team. I was a clear proof that "they are scum". Obviously townies fuck up sometimes, because they are bad. I don't care if i lose the game because of townie's bad play. But i will never townread a player who does scummy things, unless it is (almost) imppossible they are mafia, never. Just because someone has done that before as town doesn't make it townie in this game. The problem with resistance is that you don't actually lynch people. And you need people to vote a townie team. Therefore it's even more important that people actually think what they do post before they do. You and Shockeyy do scummy/illogical things. Therefore you are most likely mafia. If you are town, YOU fucked up, not me. But unless something changes drastically, i think the scumteam is you/Shockeyy/sicklucker. I think that's the most logical explanation votewise, and behaviorwise. If you and/or shockeyy are town, and by that i am gonna lose to scum!Rels, so be it, but i can't scumread him because it doesn't make sense, you two being mafia makes more sense. Feel free to prove me wrong. Welp, then with that mentality don't complain if we lose really. You aren't one to work really well with people so I'm not surprised by this reaction. I mean I'll keep plowing about since you are only 1 of nine players, but your attitude really isn't helping this game. | ||
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On November 07 2015 21:19 raynpelikoneet wrote: For the record, regarding Battle of the Drams, i would lynch both of coolTLname and JRoc 100 times out of 100 if they did the same thing again. I would, in any game, lynch anyone who does that, always. JRoc in that game was lynchbaity, but there were several lining in defence of coolTLname in that game, and there were pretty good reasons why despite his seemingly scummy gameplay. Anyways, I'll stop talking to walls. | ||
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sicklucker, thank goodness you're here. From your filter, you've decided Xatalos is the likely spy (or a likely spy) in the last team combination. Who is a spy WITH Xatalos? | ||
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On November 07 2015 21:35 sicklucker wrote: a little more reasonable.. But no rels? really? I would upvote this team pending another look at Superbia (but although low-volume, nothing is jumping out at me on Superbia as scummy). If I don't feel good with Superbia....eh I would have to decide between you and him since all that's left is Xata (review pending), Rels and Shockey. Only other thing I could do is re-read Rels if I'm wrong on him. Artanis, Kita and rayn all would appear fine, and I'm pretty sold on the latter two as town atm. Artanis's posting when I've been afk has been pretty towny. | ||
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On November 07 2015 21:40 sicklucker wrote: ok hts apparently i missed that you were suggested to be on a team with rayn and xata day one is this true? if so your town from my pov becuase you were the original fall guy My nominations: (1) rayn, Superbia, myself (8h45m left) (2) Xatalos, rayn, myself (4h45 left) (3) Kita, rayn, myself (1h9m left) - rejected It would have helped me greatly if I didn't have to play the game from the airport, but what's done is done. | ||
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On November 07 2015 21:47 sicklucker wrote: Day 1 mission. you,rayn,xata or was it atanis? day 2 mission me,rayn,xata Like we were both the fall guy since the scum of that group does not want to drop his town read on the other. (BOTH ARE NOT EVEN CONSIDERING THE OTHER TO BE SCUM THATS ABSURD) Hts if you vote that team im pretty sure we lose. Plz hold out and vote no and ill vote any team with you on it I want to be on a team, but I am near universally scumread. It will never pass. If you were to swap me in for someone, then who would it be? rayn? superbia? | ||
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On November 07 2015 21:48 sicklucker wrote: Oh ya but you made the team day 1 rofl. I dont know anymore except that town lost This was another team that I was looking at. On November 03 2015 07:57 Half the Sky wrote: 4 mins left. Could pull myself off and go with Rayn/Superbia/Kita. But there are too many people not digging at least one of these as town. For what it's worth. | ||
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On November 07 2015 21:47 sicklucker wrote: Day 1 mission. you,rayn,xata or was it atanis? day 2 mission me,rayn,xata Like we were both the fall guy since the scum of that group does not want to drop his town read on the other. (BOTH ARE NOT EVEN CONSIDERING THE OTHER TO BE SCUM THATS ABSURD) Hts if you vote that team im pretty sure we lose. Plz hold out and vote no and ill vote any team with you on it That said you have a good point for what I'm reading on Xata IMO, but I'm trying atm to follow up on the Superbia read, since Kita suspected you for that. | ||
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On November 07 2015 21:50 sicklucker wrote: ... super rayns scum 60%+ of the time from my pov im never voting any team with him or xata in it. Its the correct play knowing what I know You mean you'd keep superbia in and swap me in for rayn? (language check I know...) | ||
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Can you explain to me in a few sentences: (1) what made him scummy to you the first cycle (2) what makes you hesistant (based on post 1590) to have him on a team now. | ||
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On November 07 2015 21:56 sicklucker wrote: like with who i think scum im pretty sure all 3 of these teams include a scum. I dont like that But do you think it's because I was playing suboptimally or because I am mafia? From what you are posting, I don't believe you are aware as to why I made the selections the way I did or how I did. | ||
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On November 07 2015 21:58 sicklucker wrote: hes lurking like his mafia meta. all i remember him doing is putting my name in the mud. Kinda what scum is expected to do to the fall guy.. Alright, you answered #2, but #1? He was a bit more active first cycle than he is currently now. | ||
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On November 07 2015 22:04 raynpelikoneet wrote: You are scum because Xatalos is town. Kita was spot on about you talking in absolutes, holy shit, it is very frustrating if you are town and doubly so if both of you are. If you are town, illustrating why sicklucker is mafia (beyond Xatalos is town) would help the rest of town. If you are mafia, then obviously you can just keep doing what you are doing although if you are mafia, I would think you'd do a better job of casing SL. ATM, independent of this, I think both of you are town, but honestly your behaviour makes no sense for either alignment. | ||
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On November 07 2015 09:25 Xatalos wrote: Mehh... I guess there's the very slight argument against rayn that he so easily townread Superbia when I got the opposite impression from the events... I just kind of don't think rayn would go out of his way to townread Superbia in that situation as scum, no matter what Superbia is. From what I remember, he scumread very aggressively in the VS game as scum (for not-so-good reasons as well), but didn't have many townreads at all. Meanwhile in the last Vanilla game as town he gave away townreads very easily (especially the townreads to me, Vivax and ritoky right away). So this basically falls more into his town play than scum play, I think. On November 07 2015 09:31 Xatalos wrote: Yeah, I like how rayn approaches the all-scum nomination thing. He even warns me not to talk about it when I come to the thread I don't think there's any scum motivation in preventing discussion about that topic.On November 07 2015 09:37 Xatalos wrote: I guess it has to be SL.... I just don't see the scum motivation in rayn's filter. He's very "balanced", considering a lot of options and not just pushing a single agenda like in the VS game (lynch rsoultin D1 -> lynch me D2). Plus the contents of the last two posts about him.. What are your thoughts on this? (I have some, but as you were on the failed mission team I want to hear yours.) | ||
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On November 07 2015 08:53 Xatalos wrote: I guess SL's position on me and the missions is somewhat unnatural. He first scumreads me for not 100% townreading him at first... But he'd still want to go on a mission during my leadership, and even include me on the second mission if the first mission passed. Not really sure what his read on me was at this point? Still scum? Null? It kind of feels like it's a town lean or something already. And then when he's included with me and rayn, I'm very likely town...? Would be very curious to hear about this read progression on me. Ugh, the sad part here is that I could see both of you playing suboptimally here too. I don't think Xata should have had the reads he did on rayn, post-failure, the first two quotes he posted are IMO NAI, the second quote especially for anyone of either alignment who knows the game well can talk about the scum-packing strategy. (Kita did as well and I know I disregarded that as NAI and was townreading him on other things.) The problem here is that when I read your filter, I can actually understand your progression on Xatalos. That actually makes Xatalos worse to me and thus of the three, the most likely scum. | ||
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On November 07 2015 22:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Thanks. Hold on. | ||
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Even Rels aside, there should be some discussion on Superbia, whom some people are having doubts on. Enjoy the concert though. | ||
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On November 07 2015 22:38 raynpelikoneet wrote: HtS do you really think Rels and Shockeyy both voted nay as scum? Why? I brought disassociation up with Xata before but it was tinfoil for one player let alone two. That aside, their reads? I know Shockey was scumreading anyone who was scumreading him or at least heavily suspicious of you. And Rels was scumreading sicklucker or at least doubtful on him - if SL is town he's an easy guy to push. So for either of them to vote otherwise would fly in the face of how their reads were and they would have an unexplained change in reads. Or an unexplained change in reasoning, which scum generally want to keep things together on. If I had to go with the theory that only one of those people coudl be scum, since you are saying it's unlikely two scum voted no, then I'd probably say Rels over Shockey but that would mean that one of them is playing very suboptimally (and I know neither has played this type of game so this is quite possible) and I'd have to really look at both from the bottom up to determin that. | ||
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On November 07 2015 22:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Fair enough. What exactly made you decide to vote yes on the mission? Same thing I told Kita. At the time I was TRing Xata/Rayn and sicklucker like I said was 60/40 on him even though I was more sure on you. My scumreads at the time were Rels/Shockey/TBD. Seeing Rels and Shockey also downvoting the team, made me think that scum were downvoting the mission. It's possible given their reads, but I will probably need to re-evaluate those two. | ||
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On November 05 2015 22:10 Rels wrote: rayn and you are town. SL I'm not sure. Nothing scummy, but he's not doing much. Arta tomorrow will probably elect you / rayn / him; my vote will depend on who I think is towniest between SL and Arta at deadline. Waiting on Arta's answers to me + his analysis on me he said he would do. | ||
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On November 07 2015 22:55 raynpelikoneet wrote: That's not what i asked. Way to talk about something completely different that i in fact asked..... So your reasoning is "because they would then have unexplained change in reads". I believe Rels is good enough to figure a way out here -- especially if, as you claim, Xatalos is scum. Like if that is the case, i am 100% certain Rels could have found a reason to townread sicklucker -- because sicklucker would ACTUALLY be town (and he townread me + Xatalos anyways, before the team nomination went out). As I said, I could be wrong on Rels so I have to start from scratch on him. The argument you are presenting is that Rels doesn't have TMI (or however you said it) on SL, but this is also based on your pre-conceived notion that sicklucker actually IS scum. If Rels is scum, he doesn't just have to TMI sicklucker, there are other ways. Let's say that SL is town, and that somehow you're wrong on Xata (and you've been wrong on reads before, so don't say you aren't wrong). Surely you can entertain the slightest possibility that you are wrong. | ||
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On November 07 2015 22:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: That was regarding you saying "sicklucker would be an easy target to put the blame on". If you think that's true then "Rels is also pushing rayn now" doesn't make any fucking sense, or should not make any sense in your world from scum!Rels perspective. Eh, he has a good scumgame. If you're playing suboptimally and any good scum player wants to take advantage of that, they can. Rels has shown as either alignment (as mafia SOTW) he's not afraid of clashing with people. You've been wrong on him twice now in other games, but that's besides the point. That said I am generically wary of two spies voting no so I'll go ahead and re-eval Rels anyhow. If I think I have cause to be wrong then I'll state my reasons why and then wind up upvoting the team. | ||
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On November 07 2015 23:24 raynpelikoneet wrote: Basically HtS, if you are town, you should be really hard pushing someone from the mission 1 onto this team because i will not accept any team that does include you. We both agree on Shockeyy, I don't accept Rels as mafia as per what i said, so why is someone else on the mission scum? And who from the first mission should be included? If you don't think you can do that, then i am inclined to think you are scum. The quick version if you couldn't tell already is pushing you, between you and sicklucker I would put you on the team. | ||
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On November 07 2015 23:36 Superbia wrote: Rayn can be independent scum. I don't believe Xatalos can be. That's literally just a feeling. I don't think town-rayn can be fooled so hard so easily. Rels fooled him two games in a row (SOTW then Drams) Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice... | ||
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On November 07 2015 23:23 Superbia wrote: Actually barely have time today, unfortunately. Imo we have to find out which of the three is scum (maybe more). We can't exclude all 3 of them in the team, because if we get a fail we're essentially fucked in the ass. In my world Xatalos is either exclusively with rayn or not scum (though rayn could be independently scum). SL is a fucked-up case, as I really can't see him in the team ever again. His reactions don't help. My other problem is that Artanis/HtS are both on the yes votes despite not being on the team, which kind of means I don't want to include them on the team. The team I would suggest would be: Rayn/Xatalos/Superbia/Kita (or perhaps Artanis instead of Kita, since Kita could be with SL- I'm still a little stuck on who the last member would be- probably someone who is/was on the raynistown-train). Which means that if this team produces a fail rayn would probably be for sure mafia. Yes, I understand that this could be a set up if I'm mafia myself, but get fucked. So to re-iterate: we cannot make a team which excludes all members of the first team at this point in time, as a fail would mean absolutely fuck all. I also know that people had some questions for me: rayn and rels. Rels I don't remember your question so please restate it asap (maybe I'll find it after this post). Rayn, I stated that I had the willies on you and HtS even though you both felt town. I've explained this I believe. Why do you think Xatalos could be town? Read what I posted on him and tell me if you think that makes any sense. | ||
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On November 07 2015 23:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: So now there are three four who can't understand the fact that I NEVER PUSHED SL TO BE ON THE TEAM!!!! fucking retarded. I quoted two quotes where you clearly did, yes you said otherwise earlier, but there's a reason now why multiple peple are saying this. We all can't be scum rayn....or insane for that matter | ||
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On November 08 2015 04:07 Rels wrote: HTS you mentioned two times you will do a shallowness evaluation of Xata to know his alignement. But you didn't do it; you hard townread it before the failure; and you are now scumreading it. All of this happened without any shallowness analysis. 1 - Did I miss it ? 2 - If not, why are you scumreading him without it ? And will you do it ? On mobile. I took a comparison of scumreads in response to Kita's question and I made two posts and a few points. I cited the specific posts in my filter and asked people to comment. Superbia looked in it IIRC and couldn't make up his mind on Xata. | ||
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It's a start, it is not a full analysis. I went through SLs read progression and it seemed fine to me and whilst Rayn is stubborn as fuck he's probably town. That is the start. I mean here's the thing, first missions failing means town are doing very badly, you haven't played resistance so you probably may not realise this but scum having the gumption to fail the first mission means we are having a shit time or going to have a shit time figuring out the scum in mission 1 and its showing. For obvious reasons I'm going to have little to no say on the team so I am left with making sure my vote is a good one. I have to do an analysis on you at SOME point because as far as I'm concerned, town are playing a 5v3 game and if you (and especially Shockey) are town, this game is over. Because I will never make any mission team I either need to get out of a tunnel on you or fail to find town motivation in you or Xatalos. I've cased Xata before in another game, and I know you did some activity based analysis on Xata being town. However I know that activity meta CAN be broken and two of the games you cited his Mafia games were post restricted games (Carol, assassination) which is why I felt the read quality meta would be more effective. Now I need to actually get to doing it. I am trying to find pockets of time to work on one or the other. And I'm trying to not get discouraged despite rayn's overall toxicity to this game. I won't be the last. | ||
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Town failing first mission means we are doing very badly and generally in most situations most spies (at least in RL) don't have gumption to fail the first mission. The fact there is a failure and his lack of scepticism is a red flag, sicklucker I feel has an excellent point on assuming too easy of a fall guy. Do you think the least town read person, if scum is going to give himself away like that? Maybe people aren't understanding me but that is my perspective from having played in RL and the way this game is going, it goes against PPA but this is how townie looking scum win games. You have to look at all angles. | ||
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PPA - percentage play analysis I need to get to a PC but it's not happening until after deadline. Also people if I'm missing any questions (even yours Rels) flag me please. Even if I never get on a team if people can understand my direction on things, haphazard as it might be at least you'll consider the fact other people might be Mafia. (At least Superbia understood for a second why I'm playing a suboptimal game.) | ||
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The other three were fine by me. | ||
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So I saw this. I'll be honest, from this I actually cannot tell what you are asking, - I think you are asking me to make sense of why I think SL is sucking it up? I'll start by clarifying my statement. The "smart enough to suck it up and pass" comment was in relation to the fact that in RL resistance most three-person teams (mission 1) pass, based on my previous assumption that that three-person team was town and even with the conventional strategy that a scum would not want to give themselves away by failing the first mission. A scum SL (or scum anyone) would in theory be reluctant to pass that team. That comment was made BEFORE the mission failed. See page 67 of the game, and this was as Xatalos was talking about the no votes being scum votes. And that I was townreading xata/rayn at the time and making the assumption at that time the "least town" in sicklucker was mafia. (Posts 1334/1336) That was not in any way related to post-mission failure. If you read the comment in context on page 67, it should make more sense. | ||
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I answered Rels' questions, I got Artanis's earlier, if I missed yours, flag me. I read the last 10 pages and I don't think I missed any more. Since Rels is up for debate, I'll prioritise him over the Xata meta analysis... | ||
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On November 08 2015 12:00 ShoCkeyy wrote: How about you talk to me on how Xata and rayn both still town read each other and attack SL after the first mission? Alright, fair play, I actually saw one of your first quotes prior to that contention on that and there was a question that sort of popped up. Hold tight... | ||
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On November 08 2015 12:00 ShoCkeyy wrote: How about you talk to me on how Xata and rayn both still town read each other and attack SL after the first mission? Actually re-read this - the quick answer to this is Xatalos being suspicious based on how quickly he did it. I brought this point up discussing sicklucker and I went into detail citing two posts where I suspected Xatalos could be scum for this. rayn I have a slightly different take which I was going to do a separate walkthrough. I was planning on doing a Xata meta read analysis - as mafia Xatalos has shallower reads (and the last post I just cited from him sorta scares me tbh. But long story shot I think a number of the things you cited with rayn is (mostly) NAI. I'll try and explain why. | ||
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On November 08 2015 12:06 Half the Sky wrote: rayn I have a slightly different take which I was going to do a separate walkthrough. I was planning on doing a Xata meta read analysis once I need to get through with Rels - as Rels on the current nominated team is up for vote - as mafia Xatalos has shallower reads (and the last post I just cited from him sorta scares me tbh. But long story shot I think a number of the things you cited with rayn is (mostly) NAI. I'll try and explain why. | ||
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Now. This is the one. Now before I begin, a few things, just hear me out, I realise the entire game is scumreading me but I am going to explain point by point why most of what you are saying here is actually NAI on rayn. 1 rayn pushing for you hard to be scum is NAI. Here's why. As town, his tunnels are beyond brutal and sometimes beyond ridiculous, you ask any player (particularly the suboptimal towns or commonly scumread towns) he just assumes that logical = town, illogical = mafia. It has gotten townies mislynched and in Drams mafia left him alive (reference the mafia qt for that game) because he was massively wrong, and his attitude was destructive and created chaos for town. Other games where his tunnels have been criticised include Tropical Storm (GlowingBear? Damdred? I forget who), Drams (with rsoultin), Titanic 7 (myself), SOTW (with LightningStrike, etc), the list goes on. Now as mafia, the agenda is pretty obvious. If you're town, you are an easy player to push. But the point here was to discuss how his pushing you can be his town mentality. You may not trust my meta read, but at least two others have mentioned the "logical = town, illogical = mafia" and reading his comments on the game in Drams should shed some light on how he operates. (posts 1565 and 66) 2 That said. #1 lends him to talking to absolutes. Kita and myself have both mentioned this, which stems from the whole "logical = town, illogical = mafia" thing. From a mafia perspective you can argue if you want that they are buddying each other. Highlighting the quotes that show appeasement or TMI (usually after a prior scumread or as sicklucker said, Xatalos townread rayn almost immediately) would better help the rest of town see this if you are town. From a town mentality - again, this is meta, he always thinks he's right and he spent multiple points meta-reading and going into detail why Xatalos was town. See posts 222 (first read), 685, 760/761 (first explanation), 850 (shocking absolute statement - Xatalos is confirmed town), 1018 (this is partial meta, admittedly I couldn't trust it because I have yet to play a game with Xatalos is town). In all fairness, sicklucker who has a more erratic game, and is more difficult to read as either alignment is obvously never going to be townread as town, or at least not as easily. But based on all these posts he's made on Xata, he's not going to believe he's wrong or think he's wrong given the comp. The support WAS there. He won't consider for a second that Xatalos is (1) breaking meta (2) or taking advantage of suboptimal townies. TLDR - he just could be dead wrong and is too damned stubborn to admit it TLDR - possible town mentality is based in his stubbornness and his town tunnels are well known to be brutal, so what you are saying - yes again, meta, but I've given you multiple reference points - doesn't necessarily make him mafia. It just makes him ridiculously wrong. You haven't played enough games with him (and maybe that's a good thing? I digress) but this is what other players have cited. | ||
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(disclaimer: I'm avoiding any quotes/reads he's directed on me so that I remove any omgus issues or bias) Post 318 (and separately 330) - On November 02 2015 22:28 Rels wrote: Now I think you're town. You're being active and you meddle with everything in the thread, exactly like in the game I'm hosting. Could potentially be a bad read, but at face value for someone who's never played with Xatalos it's not a terrible or misleading read. Post 371 is pretty towny - it was tenuous as fuck but once I saw that Superbia had quoted the word nightmare and taking the entire thing in context, it's clear that he's seeing not a "nightmare" and "somewhat anti-scum" as too different things, although reading the exact words Superbia probably just saw him as exaggerating how difficult the game was. Could be an English language issue, who knows. Still can't argue this makes Rels look town. Post 578 - seems like he agrees with the meta read on Xata being town. Post 664 - Xatalos is described as maybe town. He seemed more confident in #318 so unless I missed it somewhere I can't follow how he became less confident. Given my current stance on Xatalos, this could be an issue. Minor atm, but something to note. Figures, after 4am so I'm going to stop here :/ | ||
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On November 08 2015 13:25 sicklucker wrote: hts just vote no on every nomination. I have the 5th and last nominationo f the cycle so I will just put a team of you and me and they cant vote it down Interesting thought, I see where you are going with this, but still this means we have to find 3 other people we're confident in if we get that far. It can't hurt for me to progress on Rels when I next get the chance to, you can't ignore he will come up before that 5th nomination. And Shockey, like I said, it's meta. I understand completely if you don't trust it, the only way you will truly understand is by playing and/or observing multiple games with rayn. I tried giving multiple reference points via others in other games so that you can at least see that I'm not saying this just to townread him - this is just how he is as town. And unfortunately as he's even said to me, he won't blame the loss of the game on himself, he'll only blame it on the scummy looking townies (or looking at that situation in isolation, in that case, sicklucker). 4:30am...I'm out. Night lovelies. | ||
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Back to filtering Rels. Kita, I have a null to oh-so-slight townread on Superbia. But Kita, other than me, who else are you scumreading? | ||
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Kita, I have a question. You are aware that sicklucker is tough to follow as either alignment and he contradicts himself a lot as either alignment. And if I recall correctly as town, you made a similar mistake to mislynch him in JOAT, and I did too (granted I was third party but I was looking to lynch mafia that day) we had trouble figuring him out. So how do you know you are not making the same mistake again? Why do you think his contradicting himself is mafia motivated? (or do you?) Or are you also partially scumreading sicklucker on the basis of other things? | ||
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And no I think I understood what you were trying to ask. | ||
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On November 03 2015 01:01 Rels wrote: I'm not sure you are. You're attacking people over small logical things and you are thinking about the game as a whole; that is town indicative, but I know you can replicate that as town; at least that what you and several other people claimed before. (I'm going to assume you actually meant "mafia" by the bolded and that was a mistake) On November 03 2015 01:37 Rels wrote: Cause he's attacking people over logical things, has hard townreads and is trying to solve the game as a whole. That's his town meta. I'm OK with him being part of the first team. Regarding your read progression on rayn, how were you sure day 1 that the above was town indicative (and not mafia) and how were you sure enough that "hard townreads" however they were, weren't mafia indicative? It is quite possible IMO for mafia to have hard townreads. (Now I realise you said meta, but how do you know - and especially for a player of that calibre - he's not breaking meta?) Post references - 448/496. (pages 5-6 of your filter) | ||
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On November 09 2015 06:40 Rels wrote: OK basically you're saying that's possible two mafias are voting no because they know two townies that are not on the team will vote YES, so they can disassociate; in this case, you're saying they knew you and Arta would vote YES. This is correct. I won't speak for Artanis but I thought I was pretty clear where I stood with who and how I'd vote certain teams. I mentioned at least twice this game (not sure if it was before or after the second mission vote tbh) that I was more concerned about being transparent as well. | ||
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You said that Superbia lurking was akin to his town meta? Can you name any other games offhand that this would apply? I remember you said sometime in another game (campus mafia) he played a cancerous game but was he inactive in that game or any other you can remember? His posting as far as I can see - and with Xatalos discouraging his inclusion day 1 - I am pretty sure he's town. Where are you seeing his inactivity as alignment indicative? | ||
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On November 09 2015 06:43 Half the Sky wrote: sicklucker are you here? You said that Superbia lurking was akin to his town meta? Can you name any other games offhand that this would apply? I remember you said sometime in another game (campus mafia) he played a cancerous game but was he inactive in that game or any other you can remember? His posting as far as I can see - and with Xatalos discouraging his inclusion day 1 - I am pretty sure he's town. Where are you seeing his inactivity as alignment indicative? EBWOP. Yikes, the bolded should actually be mafia not town. You said that Superbia lurking was his mafia meta....etc. | ||
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On November 09 2015 06:45 Rels wrote: Pretty sure he said it was his scum meta. Like 90% sure. Yeah I know I actually corrected myself (#1955) | ||
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On November 09 2015 06:47 Rels wrote: Alright going to sleep now. Have fun with my filter. (= Artanis; that's two times you postponed something to talk the day after. You better explain your thought process the minute you come back to the thread after voting is done. Could it be because he's scumreading you? IDK. | ||
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What do you think about what I posted on Xatalos and sicklucker's suggestion that Xatalos might have TMI on rayn? | ||
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On November 03 2015 06:23 Rels wrote: Pretty cool find! Xatalos definitely looked for scumreads in the vanilla game. If Rels concurred with this and this is in line with the Xatalos lack of quality reads mafia meta, then there's a decent chance Rels might be town? Ehhhh lemme read on... | ||
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I went to the database to look through Superbia's activity and sicklucker is actually correct regarding activity. Day 3 equivalent games show more than twice the number of pages for town as mafia. The same thing for 4 day equivalents. We are seven actual days into this game and more or less a normal game this would be Day 3. Only six pages. What gives me pause is Xata's approach day 1 (which I might need to double check) towards him. And I felt when he did post, he was town. Goodness this game is hard. | ||
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On November 09 2015 07:03 ShoCkeyy wrote: No but what is scum indicative is the fact that Xata was A) on the first mission, B) still town reads Rayn after said first mission. Isn't that the same kind of stubbornness that Rayn shows? In all honesty, I can find SL to be town, but there is definitely a mafia between rayn and xata, or theyre both mafia. Now for this next mission coming up, I really don't like the fact that Kita has a ton of mafia leans still while never giving his reads fully. Makes me question him at this point, but then there is Artanis too. Fair enough. ATM I'm trying to see a game where you and Rels are actually town and I feel that Xata is the scum that failed mission 1. I'm finding a town Rels more possible but....the rest of this team. | ||
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On November 09 2015 07:05 Rels wrote: Source on arta scumreading me for dodging plz. OH SHIT. I just read post #1962. No I misread with all those line breaks. Disregard that last post then. And then I see this explanation from Artanis. I have explained why I think you're likely scum. The gist of it comes down to how it seems like you're just throwing shit at everyone and seeing what sticks, and how you seem to be posting just to be posting. That "vote analysis" thing I dissected was an example of that. If I'm following those line breaks correctly, oh god that is a bad explanation from Artanis. I don't agree with that explanation. | ||
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Shockey, what do you think about Superbia/Artanis in general? I know Artanis looked at you (IIRC) saying you "could" be scum for not having much reads and not wanting to give teammates away. I know you are (were?) scumreading rayn but any developing thoughts on superbia or Artanis? | ||
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On November 09 2015 07:13 Half the Sky wrote: We have a rayn/Artanis/Superbia/Rels team up for the nomination right? I'm thinking I'm going to put in a no vote for now. No I stand corrected. This is what happens when you multitask too much. On November 08 2015 08:08 Fidei86 wrote: Artanis[Xp] has nominated the following team for Mission 2: Artanis[Xp] Rels Kitaman27 Superbia Please PM your votes to myself and Ticktock. You may switch your vote as often as you like, until the deadline. Phase will end in at 23:00 GMT (+00:00) on 8 November 2015. Still the point of contention is Superbia/Artanis. sicklucker can you help me on this re: Superbia.....pleeeeeaaaasssseeeeeeeeeee | ||
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From a town mindset Rels scumreading me could also be the result of him not understanding Resistance, which is why I ignored any interactions between the two of us. For example, my talking about teams one round in advance is something I do in the real game and especially as resistance. (At least in those games I've yet to be criticised for doing so if it IS a bad strategy.) | ||
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The concept of Rels pushing townleaders is possible given his scum game so for now I consider that NAI....almost through with this filter. | ||
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Sidenote: Should have time on and off tomorrow to keep playing. Tuesday's workday however is looking very bad though | ||
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On November 07 2015 10:10 Rels wrote: So SL is considered town because "all the scummy people don't want to vote for him"; but this consideration don't extend to HTS being pushed pretty hard by rayn's second hardest scumread after Shockey ? I completely missed this post. This is a really good response. | ||
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The third....ah shit. Thing is, I saw Rels'/yours (Shockey) explanation for saying they are scum, I felt your reasons were more NAI for reasons I previously explained and Rels....eh I see where he's coming from but I really do feel rayn is town. | ||
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On November 09 2015 07:01 Rels wrote: No here is why arta is probably scum: - voting yes to a failure team while not in said failure team - his read on me is super convenient and is based on nothing strong - he nominated a team without me; rayn tells him to nominate me; he argues that he thinks I am scum, then he nominates me anyway If Lex is mafia, from a mafia perspective it might be easy to set Rels up as the fall guy. And he could be taking advantage of rayn being wrong. When rayn is wrong (reference Drams) chaos ensues. Time to check that part of the game. | ||
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rayn's phase will be interesting. | ||
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Prior reads: rayn/HTS (red) rels/kita/artanis/super (green) Xata/SL (???) Change in reads: On November 09 2015 07:22 ShoCkeyy wrote: In all honesty, this is my town reads right now. Rels, SL, HtS and Myself... Straight up had to switch it. Shockey if you are still there and if you upvoted the team, I see Rels obviously there as a new townread, but if you thought scum Artanis was possible why upvote the team? I know you said you were struggling to decide but... | ||
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On November 09 2015 08:08 ShoCkeyy wrote: I think there's a definite possibility there was a mafia member on that team. Ah was in another tab, then what was your purpose (as stated in the last post) of you upvoting the team? Especially with one sabotaged mission already accounted for. | ||
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Oh wait, you wanted to see Artanis try and expose himself? (#1984) But why would you want to lose a second mission for that? Do you think you have the entire scumteam to suggest a perfect one onwards? After Xata/Artanis in your world then whom? | ||
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On November 09 2015 08:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Do you have an opinion on Superbia yourself? I told Kita slight town lean based on posting and the Xatalos disassociation, though conflicted by activity/inactivity upon looking in the last hour. I'd say closer to null. The reasons seem acceptable though but if he's town, I hope he'll give more reasons for us to call him town. | ||
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Although you are really up late Lex....this game aside, go to bed! | ||
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On November 09 2015 08:24 Xatalos wrote: Btw why am I missing from this list >.> Overall, I'd be much more interested to hear your own reads rather than listing others' reads. LOL I missed this first go, read the bottom two lines of his post! | ||
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sicklucker when you return, can you talk about Superbia more? Particularly in relation to campus mafia. Can you do a meta that does NOT touch on activity/inactivity? | ||
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Ah the wonders of actually having time to play this game xD | ||
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And fight me? I'm going to capoeira Tuesday but knowing you, you will still come in and dropkick me Now let me go to bed <3 | ||
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On November 09 2015 08:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Why don't you agree with the explanation? I just saw this :/ I honestly don't know where you get the idea that Rels is showing shit at everyone. I know or at least have a better idea that why his read on me is bad aside from what he's saying about the mission 2 votes but when I looked at his filter with fresh eyes (and for once, not horribly pressed for time) I felt there was some purpose to his post. I would put Xatalos WAY the hell closer to the category of posting just to post as opposed to Rels. | ||
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Kita/Shockey/Rels/Rayn If people are smart enough to re-consider Shockey, this team will pass and this mission should pass. That leaves Artanis and myself out (again I'm in a 5v3 mentality) with people doubting the mission 1 votes. Kita/Rayn are near universally townread. Rels is mostly townread. 3 of those people downvoted the failed mission and the only person - Rayn - who passed it is universally townread (and I'm again, confident he's town). | ||
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On November 09 2015 23:23 Xatalos wrote: You lost me Artanis >.> And HTS.... There's just no basis for your push on me. You say I "TMI"d rayn when the team failed, but if you didn't miss it, I townread him pretty heavily from like the latter part of the first cycle already. Why would I drop the townread over SL after the failure? Granted, rayn is a bit more likely scum now, but I still don't think that's the case, and SL has looked worse after the failure IMO. By that same logic, rayn also still townreads me........ Mission 1 failed. It was explicitly stated there was one sabotage by the moderator. There HAS to be ( (at least, but most likely) one scum between you/rayn/SL. If you are town, and you know you are town, and especially on the back of a heavy townread on rayn, the bolded doesn't make any sense >_< | ||
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Kita/sicklucker/Rels/Rayn For sure, three of the players should be Kita/Rels/Rayn, but the 4th we are going to have a hard time coming to a consensus. Ugh. Will be back. | ||
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On November 10 2015 02:25 sicklucker wrote: so my first thought is rayns the scum trying to bait me and my followers into voting an all town team + him. He knows if he if we wait till my team submited that team will pass and the game will be over for scum. Dont fall for his trick downvote this. He will just fail this mission too. Like town rayn would never submit this team for real... Everytime im scum against ryan he says stupid shit like im giving up but he always comes back into the game and trys hard. Hes never submitting this team as town Read the rest of the thread? He seemed to just want to torpedo his own team (this is his attitude in general when he gets discouraged with the game as town) and he had a more serious submission after this. The real problem now is Superbia replacing out, which means the lurkiness you described is really NAI. I'd focus on his second team him/superbia/rels/kita I know you are (were?) against Kita, though I'm not clear on why. I queried Kita earlier on how he's so sure you are spy because you being difficult to track is NAI. But I couldn't see him differentiating on any posts he's made on you yet, realising he's a American, maybe he'll do that in a few hours. | ||
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LOL, Artanis is pressing Xatalos on his soft stance. In his world if rayn is town, then you must be a spy. Xata's stance is fabricated and this shows it, but I'm of the opinion he's a spy anyways. | ||
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On November 10 2015 02:36 sicklucker wrote: that and xata is approaching too bad to be scum levels and is posting alot Do you really think any player of rayn's calibre would post a team that flies in the face of everything he's said AND has a zero chance of passing as either alignment especially with Shockey and myself near universally scumread? | ||
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On November 10 2015 02:42 Xatalos wrote: That's just too bad of an attempt, HTS. Looks like you even ignored my previous posts for you............ Your case is simply illogical to the extreme. You better pray I don't find the time to case the shit out of you, it probably won't happen until after I touch down in NYC on Thursday. I'm seeing a lot of things that make you mafia from a meta standpoint and that's ignoring your lack of skepticism on the first mission failure. | ||
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On November 10 2015 02:46 sicklucker wrote: idk how rayn plays scum since I have never seen it. But hes rarely this wrong as town Reference Battle of the Drams (most recent example) and like I said he blames things on bad townies. Anyways, welcome Vivax, glad to have you here <3 | ||
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On November 10 2015 02:46 sicklucker wrote: idk how rayn plays scum since I have never seen it. But hes rarely this wrong as town And again... Do you really think any player of rayn's calibre would post a team that flies in the face of everything he's said AND has a zero chance of passing as either alignment especially with Shockey and myself near universally scumread? In case you didn't understand that the first time. | ||
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sicklucker, I don't think either of rayn or Kita are spies here. I really don't think. Kita could you please answer why you think SL's erratic posting is alignment indicative? I asked a question of you sometime back....ehh let me find it. | ||
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On November 10 2015 02:52 sicklucker wrote: im asking myself if rayn would be a cry baby if the game was not going the way scum would want? Yes hes done this the one time we were scum together and he got replaced out day1 and banned Yeh you are talking about TL LXX, and I was just going to ask you about that game. But you look at Drams, you look at Titanic.... I think rayn's last decent scum game was Debauchery and I know he blamed the loss partially on the scummates that went down before him, he was caught out late game. I'm saying this from memory so you should verify. | ||
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On November 10 2015 02:31 sicklucker wrote: its not like you have any say in the matter. Just keep being town and stop suggesting bad teams with kita on it Oh I know, but it can't hurt to let people know what's on my mind. | ||
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On November 09 2015 20:20 raynpelikoneet wrote: So that was the only team that had a reasonable chance of going onto a mission. ##Nominate: raynpelikoneet, sicklucker, Half the sky, Shockeyy On November 09 2015 21:31 Xatalos wrote: Quite a curious nomination. Another reaction test, or you don't think any other team can pass at this point......? On November 09 2015 22:00 Xatalos wrote: Tbh I think this nomination is probably the only one where we have a chance anymore.... But I guess quite a few scumread you now so I can understand why it seems difficult. Then should we just try voting for a team or something? More on why Xatalos is a spy - Mission 1: Xatalos, rayn, sicklucker - vote passed 5:4, mission failed. Rayn suggested a team of himself, sicklucker (TWO FROM THE ABOVE FAILED MISSION!!!!) me, and Shockey. And then Xatalos turns around and says "this nomination is the only one we have a chance"?????? When in HIS world he's town and we know for a FACT one of these two failed, he's saying we have a chance? Are you remotely kidding me?!?!?!?!? That is one atrocious response if I've ever seen one. | ||
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See you soon lovelies! | ||
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On November 10 2015 05:29 Rels wrote: I don't understand how it doesn't make any sense. He's saying he wouldn't drop the townread on rayn over SL. Do I misunderstand his sentence ? If he meant he would drop the townread on rayn over sicklucker then I completely misunderstood the sentence. In any case, the contention sicklucker, Artanis (to a different degree if you read his latest posts) and myself are raising is not the exact townread, not THAT he is or isn't townreading rayn or sicklucker. It's HOW that read came about and more specifically the reactions to the mention of sicklucker in the discussion. There was practically zero scepticism demonstrated AFTER the failure. If you look at the questions that people are throwing at Xatalos (particularly Artanis) you can see the cracks in his stances. I'd quote it atm, but I'm not at a pc. :/ | ||
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On November 10 2015 05:32 Rels wrote: I would vote YES to that right now. I would prefer Shockey instead of Superbia though. Wouldn't shoot this down, but if Vivax becomes readable as town in the next 1-2 hours (which he said he'd engage) I'd prefer keeping the noms as is. I don't think you've played with him Rels but when he really puts his mind to the game (reference Gaiden when he went all out against the scumteam) he's pretty damned readable as town. | ||
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On November 10 2015 05:46 Rels wrote: That's true he feels non commital. But why is this sentence making no sense? He's saying he townread rayn and scumread SL. The fact that he is being pushed by Arta + you, when there is 99% mafia between you and XX*% you are both scum is also town indicative. * a big number The bolded is not necessarily conclusive. If scum know one of their teammates (and it doesn't matter who - all three people on the failed mission voted themselves on) was on the mission, it's easy to dissociate from that because they'd know it'd fail and it's not hard to see how others are reading people. I think I explained that to you before. It's possible and we can't fully eliminate the fact that 2 scummers voted no. As for the sentence "not making sense" I already answered that in the first paragraph. If I understood it correctly however that he would drop the townread on (over???) SL then it is impossible for him to townread BOTH rayn and sicklucker. I presented the alternative in my first paragraph if I misunderstood. | ||
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On November 10 2015 05:47 Rels wrote: BTW cant wait for your shallowness analysis you've talked about for one week. Sincerely, I'm hyped as shit for that now. Given the length of Xatalos' filter it's going to take me minimum 2 hours to sit down at the pc and pull the examples I need. There were also two meta cases that GlowingBear and I made on him in his scumgames based on read quality so those will be part of the case if I can find them because GB's case especially did a great job contrasting the reads. The games in question are Carol of the Bells and Assassination Mafia, both post-restricted large normal. I still have to work through the rest of Artanis' filter although he's not on the mission, he's less of a priority now than Vivax (or that slot) who is up for discussion. For Artanis, I'm ignoring the relative inactivity as NAI before he picked it up with his chart. Fair warning, work is going to bury me tomorrow and I fly to the US Thursday morning. | ||
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On November 10 2015 05:57 Vivax wrote: I'm still not caught up fully but I just read this like 50 pages back. Why is rayn sending himself with 2 people he thought were mafia? Pardon any ignorance. You're talking about the nomination where he did rayn/me/SL/shockey? I saw that as NAI, his attitude this game has been "I don't give a fuck" when things aren't going his way. The post in question http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=103#2049 | ||
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On November 10 2015 05:50 Rels wrote: I don't see how he would become obvious town in 2 hours. Maybe I'll be amazed. He did it in a lot less in Gaiden and way back in Carol. Different here though as he has replaced in. But still we'll see. | ||
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On November 10 2015 03:23 kitaman27 wrote: His strategy is essentially to accept any team that includes himself and attack any player that attacks him. I feel this is alignment indicative because it's exactly how I played as spy in resistance 2. + Show Spoiler + On November 03 2015 22:20 sicklucker wrote: yo xataloser is a bad guy On November 03 2015 22:24 sicklucker wrote: he failed my omgus test where I omgus people who put doubt on my not giving a fuck. I call it plan no give a fuck On November 03 2015 22:29 sicklucker wrote: No but I figured scum would go out of there way to not let me get away with being a shitty player On November 03 2015 22:36 sicklucker wrote: Note that xata is annoyed trying to convince me otherwise and backtracked later with reasons to townread me. He didnt bring this reason up when he complained to rayn On November 04 2015 19:44 sicklucker wrote: Like do you want me to summarize my filter for you. Ive given my plan. gonna veto any xatalos unless its like me and rayn then ill reread his shit. Taking it day by day. playing the long and underwhelming game On November 05 2015 09:43 sicklucker wrote: like if xata picks the team i want (he did kinda) that proves to me i can probably trust him He scum reads Xata, explains why, and states that he would reject any team with Xata unless SL is included. Whether or not your scum read brings you along on a mission set up for failure should not influence your read on that player. Xata + X + Y = Fail because Xata is scum Xata + X + SL = Pass because ???? He later explains that he "didnt think a scum xata would have the balls". He didn't have the balls to bring along a townie? As opposed to bring along some other random townie? Huh? Next, he calls super scum because super stated that the Xat/rayn/SL team would get rejected and that SL should have been replaced by Artanis. He explains that super wanted to reject the all town team, even though he didn't think Xat was mafia at the time. He then explains that the all town team in reference was rayn/SL/artanis. This doesn't make sense either because the post SL attacked super for stated that he wanted SL replaced by artanis. Next he uses this explanation to state that shockeyy and rels are town. Yet his scum reads include myself and super, also no voters. He is using the same argument to state that certain players are town, yet ignores his own argument in regards to others. He buddies the players that town read him and attack the players the scum read him. Right now the policy he is pushing is to fail every team until it is his turn to nominate himself. Alright, I have some alternate thoughts on this. I thought a bit about this post when I was at work... I see what you are getting at here, but I remember some of the things sicklucker said from his POV that would make what he said a little more plausible from his POV. Hear me out. Two points from this post 1 The "Xata wouldn't have the balls" comment actually DOES make sense - I'll explain how. 2 scum sicklucker would be playing too suboptimally, that is, giving too much information away if he was just knocking down nominations until his turn came up. sicklucker, if I say anything off target here correct me, but this is what I remember. First "the scum xata wouldn't have the balls" that comes from the fact that sicklucker thought xatalos would give himself away too easily with a team of two players that were more obviously read as town. rayn even said sicklucker was obvious town, and though other players were more doubtful on sicklucker (myself included) from his OWN perspective and especially where sicklucker had a more inflated view of himself as town, this would actually make sense. If you think about it from sicklucker's perspective it would make sense for town sicklucker to think that a scum xatalos wouldn't have the "balls" to reject a mission and given himself away in a 3-man mission team where the other two were more solidly townread. I had to read his filter numerous times to understand that, but he's French Canadian and admitted in Drams his English was shit-tier. Now obviously you can see the mission failed and given the way people were reading all three players you can tell we're all trying to struggle to figure out the one mafia in that bunch of 3. He also said something else to the effect of "oh wait maybe I can trust xata if he put out a team I wanted or a team with him on it or what have you" - again I don't remember full context without opening a thousand tabs on my phone but that was another point in his favour. The second point I see what you are saying just reading your post and I'd have to do a double take on that. The other argument I think that could potentially be flawed is that the whole voting no thing until your turn is up is a very risky thing to do as scum. In real resistance, he could afford to do this because scum win if the fifth team isn't approved. Even then town still have one more chance to get their team right (we only have one failed mission so far, not two). Scum sicklucker voting everything down and getting a team that would potentially fail or getting a team together that would purposely fail would a) give himself away and b) by association give his teammates away. I don't know what your situation was or the rules were in resistance 2, but with this setup, town are not completely out on the fifth group to go for a vote because if that mission team is forced and if for whatever reason that mission fails, that's a lot of information scum sicklucker is giving away for the town to get the next mission right. From a meta standpoint, (reference Void, Drams) scum sicklucker is concerned about giving away information on his teammates. Maybe that's the strategy you used in one game, but his mindset here might not be as mafia motivated as you might see it. Your post is thought out and it is not unreasonable but the flaw here is that like it or not, sicklucker plays this game a hell of a lot different than you do. | ||
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On November 10 2015 06:18 Xatalos wrote: HTS's "arguments" have already been shown wrong and she just continues to push it, ignoring my posts. The recent arguments are even dumber than the previous ones. I can't really even bother anymore, she's not going on a mission anyway..... (worth noting that the meta arguments are still lacking because there isn't anything of use there, instead some stupid stuff has been made up.....) I'm not the only one seeing problems with your position. Try again. Don't care whether or not I'm going on a mission, this game has been 5v3 for awhile now, but I can still see to it that you don't get on one yourself. | ||
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On November 10 2015 07:16 Xatalos wrote: "2 scum sicklucker would be playing too suboptimally, that is, giving too much information away if he was just knocking down nominations until his turn came up. " Isn't voting NO on everything until his own leadership just refraining from giving away information... His votes will mean nothing, and his own (failed) team won't be voted for either..... So there really isn't any information to be gained either from his own votes or the formation of his own team.... Voting no on everything (at least without explanation) looks scummy but more critically, his own team will be forced to mission as it won't be put up to a vote, period. It's the equivalent of a yes vote as he's the 5th mission holder, so he can force whatever team he wants. One mission has failed. If his mission fails, that's where the information is gained, from a second failed mission. | ||
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Kita, any followup, shout (#2183). I warn you as I did Rels, work is going to bury me tomorrow (0800-2200 again FML), but I'll do my best. Good night. | ||
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On November 11 2015 02:47 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Capoeira time. Wonder if daniele's going today too Can't. Had to skip today since it's a 11-12 (billable) hour day. >_< I'll try and answer questions when I return - if I return home on time or after or whenever :/ But since people probably want to know, I upvoted this team. | ||
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On November 11 2015 01:55 raynpelikoneet wrote: Regardless of everything i am going to say if HtS and Shockeyy are both town, this town is never going to win this game. 100%. Shockey and I both (more or less) got out of tunnels on each other. You should ask yourself why you were unable to. The game is lost as far as I'm concerned, I'm trying to see at this point if I can just solve the game for the sake of post game cred. I'm not going to learn anything if I replace out anyways, but I'll try and see what I can pull together before I go to the US Thursday. | ||
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At no point have I ever scumread you this game. So your saying that I'm scumreading you for bullshit reasons is completely false. I called your play toxic and NON ALIGNMENT INDICTATIVE in a meta argument to Shockey as to why you are town. Again your play is toxic regardless of the quality of your reads (you do not work well or foster an environment where people can show they are town) - Shockey saw you as scum indicative and I argued with examples as to why it was not. At no point did I say it was scummy. Toxic and scummy are two different concepts. So if you want to stretch things like you did in Titanic you only have yourself to blame especially for someone who says that I cannot read the thread properly. *hands you a mirror* | ||
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On November 11 2015 08:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: You need to understand. .. HtS, that just because i say "fuck you" to you or to anyone, instead of you telling me "you played bad" in a game where i found all scum it does not make me toxic.. ever.. sure you can try, but when i call out your bs take it, or prove me wrong. It makes you delusional. I say what i think. Just because you are more sensitive with words or as a person what the fuck ever idc. Get your facts straight and dont feed ppl with bs. I will be saving an appropriate response for this in the post-game as some of the problems here in question go beyond this game or really anyone's gameplay. I will leave it at that. | ||
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On November 11 2015 08:14 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Afk 24h, if the mission passes we autowin anyway since we can just send the same mission 2 more times. The autowin part is not entirely true, but for obvious reasons I won't go into detail. We'll see what happens in 24h, I should have some breathing room to play tomorrow. | ||
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On November 11 2015 08:29 Artanis[Xp] wrote: There's no reason for mafia to pass this mission then fail mission 3 when they'll just be identical if it passes anyway. If there's a spy on this mission he's going to fail it. Judging by the votes (specifically only 2 no votes), this mission will fail. (insert expletives here) | ||
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Good night lovelies. | ||
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Vivax seemed okay at the time my vote went in, I put it through around lunchtime (EU) because I was fucking pressed for time with this game. I accepted the fact that Rels could be town after a fresh (and attempt at being unbiased after seeing hsi filter), but upon seeing these votes, I very well could have been wrong - the fact that Artanis voted this team down and Rels upvoted it....IDK. My first thought - if this team fails and it likely will - is that the Rels/Artanis interaction is more likely that the former of the two is more likely scum. (I'm thinking the most likely scum in this group is between Rels/Vivax.) Doubling back on his filter....there was a quote where Rels said he wanted Shockey on the team and (not so?) tinfoil me thinks a scum Rels could try to set Schokey up as a scapegoat. Food for thought. rayn is 1000% town, this I am confident of. And yeah before anyone keeps saying I'm scum for discussing this ahead of time, hear me out, are any of the above four (kita/rayn/Vivax/Rels) being scumread or heavily scumread? No. At least one scum passed this. There's a reason why, folks. Anyways, second attempt at going to bed. At least today (Wednesday) isn't a 15 hour day... | ||
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On November 11 2015 09:57 sicklucker wrote: Like rels and shockey .HOW DO YOU VOTE YES HERE? Not only do you get to pick next, but I had already promised to put you on the garanteed team fi your teams you submitted did not pass. IT MAKES NO SENSE maybe you guys are just the mafia afterall #yolo prediction of Xatalos/Rels/Shockey for post-game cred!!!!! Okay, I was sort of kidding about Shockey, but see my previous post re: Rels. IDK. | ||
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On November 11 2015 09:47 sicklucker wrote: so many yes votes... well 0% chance this passes gg wp scum Damn, don't give up. Take the information gained from this failure and work backwards. We're down, but we aren't out yet. Good night. | ||
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On November 11 2015 09:57 sicklucker wrote: Like rels and shockey .HOW DO YOU VOTE YES HERE? Not only do you get to pick next, but I had already promised to put you on the garanteed team fi your teams you submitted did not pass. IT MAKES NO SENSE maybe you guys are just the mafia afterall sicklucker - tbf you wanted to put rels on your team, now you absolutely know you cannot. Like I said there is some information gained from this. rayn even queried some suspicion on Rels JUST before this vote on this team passed that I think might warrant paying some attention. I am reading and re-reading. Pay attention to that and Artanis' follow on Rels. I am at Xatalos/Rels/TBD Final mafia is between Kitaman/Vivax. It is not Shockey based on previous votes, and it's not you (especially with this vote). And I cannot see it being Artanis at all at this point particularly with this vote. Now between Kita and Vivax, I had associative reasons that it's probably not Vivax's slot based on Xata's early game play but Superbia's lurkiness, even if NAI in the end, which you pushed SL, gave you some pause, so it might be worth it to at least re-eval his posts before he went completely afk. I'm going to find the third mafia and then work backwards in constructing the cases. Right now, a team I know that will pass a mission based on everything I've looked through: rayn/sicklucker/Artanis/Shockey So if I absolutely cannot decide between Kita and Vivax (if Kita is mafia, then it's the point where I have to pretty much save Kita's filter somewhere and then try and solve the game on my flight tomorrow, which is about 8h) then we can start constructing the teams leaving both players out. Since the entire game is scumreading me, I am purposely leaving myself off. but only because I know my own alignment, I'd swap myself for the individual I've least sure on (at this point Shockey) but I am sure the above four are clean. rayn/sicklucker/Artanis/myself, I would be 100% confident the team would pass a 4-person mission. This is where my head is. | ||
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The quote you highlighted is self-explanatory. A 7-2 vote indicates the team will fail or at the very least there is a spy on the team. Considering the state of the game it is very highly likely there is a spy. Artanis downvoting the team (aside from other things) is a massive point in his favour. | ||
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On November 12 2015 02:34 Rels wrote: Here Arta: - says he's not suspicious of me anymore - says he will vote YES But in the end, after mostly everyone says they will vote YES, he ends up voting NO. Why ? It's not logical from his reads. One explication could be that he's scum, he knows the team is infected, and he wanted to be on the right side of the votes for towncred. For the Xata / rayn / SL team he had to vote YES 'cause it wasn't obvious if it was going to pass or not without his vote; for this team, he could vote NO, have the team go and get the town cred. I'm still going with the theory that the team is infiltrated, since if it's clean we won anyway. "Not that sure" (what he said) and "not suspicious" (what you said) are two different things. At best, someone saying "I'm not sure on you" means they have at best a null on you. And he said he was toying with it, not that he'd commit. Two different things. He already implied (bolded) what the count would be. If Artanis is scum it's sure not for that. | ||
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I looked at interactions between Kitaman and Superbia (now Vivax), Xatalos, and rayn, and the day 1 stuff all over again. Kita had a mafia lean on Xatalos and there was more dodgy interaction between Xatalos and Superbia which Kita pointed out. Post #563 in light of all these and casting doubt on both Superbia and Xatalos....he's town. sicklucker, I honestly do think that makes Kita town. What do you think of the puzzle now if you were to look at day 1 again? The final scumteam would put me at Rels/Xatalos/Superbia. I need to now re-read filters, interactions, and reactions and take another look at the votes to see if this team makes sense. I know I recall somewhere Rels had a reaction to either Kita's list or something that said along the lines of "oh yeah Xatalos did have more solid scumreads in Vanilla" or something of that sort. That would most certainly support the Rels/Xatalos tie-in, it's just a poke that doesn't go anywhere which is mafia indicative. Nevermind it would make his questioning (IIRC it was him) of my meta argument for Xatalos being mafia more awkward considering he had agreed with Kita on a similar point. | ||
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The final scumteam would put me at Rels/Xatalos/Vivax. | ||
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On November 12 2015 03:25 Vivax wrote: Do you really think I can be spy with Xata, Rels? After what superbia did to him right at the start of D1? For now we can just chill and wait for the outcome. All this speculation pre-result is even too tinfoil for me. Kita made a good point as to why you sure could be. On November 03 2015 00:07 kitaman27 wrote: This seems like quite the over analysis for an intro one-liner. There doesn't have to be spy motivation in every post. Why conclude that he is somehow pushing an agenda where it benefits him to trick town into thinking the spies will get steam rolled. Really a stretch here. More speculation without basis than anything. This is where Kita was day 1. Obviously on the back on new information, and looking how he has interacted with people and THESE READS.... On November 04 2015 04:28 kitaman27 wrote: Here are my reads so far. I'm sure they will change as time goes on. Admittedly there is a lot of wishy/washy or null reads. I'm still not completely sure about anyone really. [...] Xatalos - Leaning mafia This is a flat out false statement to justify his town read on Superbia. Superbia was NOT constantly engaged with the thread. He was absent aside from the start of the game, a 1 hour period where he made several posts, and a return post where he promised future reads. How can a player be both engaged and disconnected from the game at the same time. I question the validity of the town read because he isn't aware of Superbia's absence when several other players start to question the drop off. Furthermore, he justifies the scum read on me by stating that I am ignoring discussion topics. That makes Xatalos's mindset look even worse when you compare it to his defense of Superbia. Superbia never even comments about the nomination aside from a 1-liner after the fact that he has never elaborated on. I shared my suspicions on both Superbia and Xatalos during the nomination phase and my satisfaction with both HTS and rayn as nominations. It seems like Xatalos generated his reads a few hours into the game and hasn't re-evaluated based on the events of the thread, which I view as a scum trait. Superbia - Weakly leaning town Superbia + Xatalos doesn't stand out as teammates and I think Xat looks worse between the two. That's probably the biggest reason that I have him slightly townier than NULL. If I re-evaluated my read on Xata, I'd probably need to do the same here. This post felt genuine. He had no input regarding nominations. I won't necessarily interpret this as spy motivated since he has essentially been absent from the thread, rather than lurking. I felt this post was exaggerated. He suggests that Xat is pushing a mafia agenda with the nightmare for scum post in order to catch town off guard. I simply don't think a mafia Xat is looking that far ahead. If anything, I'd say reason 1 makes more sense. Trying to interpret what a town Xat would enter the game as is a complete guessing game so I felt he was really stretching his read here. AT THAT TIME, he mentioned they couldn't possibly stand out as teammates, but both have one major thing in common - the reads on each other were a stretch which is common(ish) when mafia need to discredit each other. From the first failed mission I am 99.9% Xatalos is the saboteur, and the above plus sicklucker's points on Superbia (prior to the fully afk) lurky game make this combination a bit more likely. Again, let me remind everyone SUPERBIA HAD JACK ALL ON NOMS Day 1. From a mafia mindset he might not have wanted to give anyone away! Thoughts? Kita, Kita, Kita, where are you... | ||
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On November 12 2015 04:17 kitaman27 wrote: When you were on the fence with the day one team between Xata and Super, Xata seemed pretty interested in getting himself included. He didn't discredit the super team completely, but he showed the preference towards being the one you chose. If they were buddies, it wouldn't really matter much which of the two was picked. I suppose he could be trying to emulate how a town player would think there. Super voting no on the rayn/xata/SL team suggests they aren't buddies, but I guess one of the spies voted no d1 if today fails, unless rayn is the bad guy. I'll have to do a re-read on super/vivax and Rels if the game isn't over in a couple hours More food for thought re: Xata/Super On November 09 2015 16:53 Artanis[Xp] wrote: You think Superbia looks the best between Superbia/Kita/Rels? He's actually the one I'm questioning the most from my townreads. He has looked pretty good at times, but the inactivity is worrying. Also, given how you've butted heads with him a lot, where does the strong townread come from? I know you read him as town earlier, but not strongly and he hasn't really done much since other than vote no. | ||
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On November 12 2015 04:55 Xatalos wrote: Well, it's more PoE than anything really. Meaning that I thought rayn and Superbia looked better than you two. I didn't even call you two scum there Vague as in being evasive about his own reads and mostly asking questions / taking a pretty neutral stance on things. Perfect timing, this (plus what Artanis highlighted in my previous post) is a few examples of what I mean by the shallow reads from Xatalos. "So can you expand on him being vague?" You said he was evasive on his own reads - he provided a list post early on and even clarified where he stood after he gathered reads from people. This one is particularly bad because there are no hard conclusions on anyone in that post and also Superbia had hardly done jack all - stressed again by Artanis in my last post, yet he's placing him above Kita/Rels, both of whom have done/posted a substantial amount for the game regardless of their alignment. And he PoEed someone (anyone, be it Rels or whoever) after eliminating someone whose hardly done much for the game in comparison, and especially without explaining why. The reads are beyond awkward for a town player. | ||
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On November 10 2015 21:54 Xatalos wrote: I was considering voting YES (since the next leaders wouldn't most likely suggest anything better than this), but these endorsements really give me the creeps....... Both SL/HTS being excited about the team..... Geh :/ Kind of feels like there could be scum included after all. Thoughts, rayn? On November 10 2015 22:00 Xatalos wrote: You seemed very confident in the earlier me/SL argument though? You mean they could be trying to reproduce that argument now....? I guess it's possible. Still concerns me quite a bit.... On November 10 2015 22:02 Xatalos wrote: Then again, otherwise this will probably go to SL's decision -> fail..... It's like picking between ebola and AIDS.... On November 10 2015 22:33 Xatalos wrote: Mainly just that I'm not that confident on them + SL/HTS endorsing this team. It's not like it's the worst team in itself. Just not the best, and endorsed by the two most likely scum :/ And after all this, guess who voted yes to this team? Not sicklucker, folks... (Yeah, I did too, but I explained why immediately after the result.) | ||
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On November 12 2015 06:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So after hard scumreading both me and hts for the better part of the game, rels decides I am confirmed mafia and HtS is confirmed town in the event of a fail as soon as he comes back to the thread, with me being in all of his potential teams. Why does anyone consider him town again? THIS SO MUCH. | ||
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If I'm wrong on Vivax, then it's Kita. 99.9% sure on Xatalos 99.9% sure on Rels At least 75% sure on Vivax #youhearditherefirst #postgamecred #itsnotover #nevergiveup | ||
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On November 12 2015 06:44 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So anyway, the fact that rels is already trying to throw shit on me before the mission failed makes me pretty sure he's scum. Looking at potential partners, I actually don't think shockeyy's scum. Two reasons: A) he really hasn't been playing to any kind of wincon and in the end I have to admit it probably means he's town. B) I don't think mafia rels would be the first to risk townreading shockeyy whom looked really bad. As for HtS, I actually think she might be town. The way she keeps on trucking and focuses on solving the game even in the face of being nearly universally townread makes me eerie. Which means there must be a scum in kita/vivax too since scum xata would never nominate scum sl with him and rayn is never scum this game. Gonna have to focus on that later. So it looks like we are on nearly the same page, although you think I must be universally scumread, not townread lol. What do you think about the interactions between Kita/(then) Superbia/and Xatalos day 1? Points against and/or of discussion on Superbia - lurky mafia meta - a bit of a stretch read against Xatalos - no input on any of the nominations day 1 Thoughts? | ||
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rayn was not mafia. His overall behaviour this game is not alignment indicative. He shitfights commonly as town. His nitpickiness/scumhunting method he's had this game was pretty towny. I tried to explain this to Shockey. Coagulation I look forward to your thoughts (or seeing as you are American, waking up to reading them). | ||
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On November 12 2015 07:23 Vivax wrote: Like there's a super good reason why a rayn you are townreading 100 % only puts people on his wagon who voted no to the failed wagon. You're referring to the team he picked just now, right? Assuming you are: I'll tell you the same thing I told at least three other people earlier in the game, disassociation. Xatalos was picked with rayn and sicklucker to mission. Do you realllllllyyyyyy think Xatalos is going to vote no? It is also not hard to figure where people stood on reads with people. If you know where enough people are going to place their votes on a flawed wagon you can separate ahead of time. Let's recap: sicklucker went into mission as the weakest townread, and rayn pushed SL at the end on account of his own read, but more critically, the people he perceived as being mafia at the time (IIRC myself, superbia, rels) opposing his inclusion and wanting Artanis. As I said, if I'm wrong on you for whatever reason, it's Kita. Even then the game is nearly solved. I am very confident on Rels/Xatalos as the first two, and very confident on the following as town: rayn (Coag)/myself/Shockey/Artanis/sicklucker. Any combination of the above 4-5 is fine by me over the final three missions. One of the things I am going to do before/on my flight tomorrow is go through Kita's filter and tinfoil the shit out of it. | ||
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On November 10 2015 06:46 Vivax wrote: I think rayn and shockey are both town. Xata and SL must not be on the mission. That's good so far, they both look craptastic. I'm not sure who of them more with my current knowledge. I just noticed SL posting that if I don't rat him out we can be friends, something an actual mafioso would probably say. Rels looks good too just for saying this cause knowing I'm town and thinking Shockey is too, I just see no point for a spy to tell rayn to swap out a town for another town (unless speculative wifom planting which is something I don't see here). I'm vigilant about kita as he's one of the people I can get really paranoid about. I have a history of reading him correctly too so until I get to do that and given that his first posts in the game didn't really scream town to me, I'd prefer to not have him on a mission for now. I'd be fine with rayn/me/shockey/Rels Vivax Let's say I'm wrong on you. For your filter, these are your current reads. You don't like Xata or sicklucker. Fine. What do you make of the first failed mission as both were on it? Do you have an updated read on Kita? At this stage, based on the information already out (or seeing as it's 20m prior to mission flip if you only see this after the flip) who are your scumteam? | ||
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On November 12 2015 07:49 Vivax wrote: I make of the first failed mission that I don't want both of Xata/SL on a mission, and that I'm fine with a team of people who voted no on that mission. We're heading there. I already said I'd look at kita if the mission failed cause I don't trust him for pushing my slot and something about his first post bothering me. Any thoughts on Artanis? Not really any comment on him in your filter. | ||
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1NBguEX.jpg?1) | ||
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Pick any four of: rayn/HTS/SL/you/Artanis rayn is town, please trust me on this one, if you cannot, then go with you, me, SL, Artanis. Absolutely positively avoid Xatalos or Rels. I am still up in the air with Vivax/Kita. Avoid them not because both of them are scum but I am still looking at both. Artanis is also examining both atm as well. | ||
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On November 12 2015 08:07 Half the Sky wrote: Shockey, please trust me on this: Pick any four of: rayn/HTS/SL/you/Artanis rayn is town, please trust me on this one, if you cannot, then go with you, me, SL, Artanis. Absolutely positively avoid Xatalos or Rels. I am still up in the air with Vivax/Kita. Avoid them not because both of them are scum but I am still looking at both. Artanis is also examining both atm as well. EBWOP for replacement: Pick any four of: Coagulation/HTS/SL/you/Artanis Coagulation (rayn's old slot) is town, please trust me on this one, if you cannot, then go with you, me, SL, Artanis. | ||
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See you tomorrow....in NYC. (God help me.) | ||
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I have to shut my phone off in the customs zone but before I do... sicklucker, I'll read your filter and your rationale for scumreading Artanis/changing on Rels. Rels to me has both town and mafia motivations for posting. Just quickly skimming through all these pages I don't understand how Kita is townreading Rels but he might not be familiar with Rels' scumgame. I'm on mobile - Kita if you are town, please reference Rels' SOTW 2 and Drams mafia filters so you don't get fooled here? He's good at LOOKING town when he ISN'T town. I'll read closer when I'm in a taxi or at lunch or something. On November 13 2015 00:16 kitaman27 wrote: Wait, so you expect me to consider the scenarios where I could be mafia? How does that help me figure things out in the slightest? Are you considering the scum team to be Artanis/X/Y? Of course not. And of all the things that I have said this game, THAT is the reason you don't want me on any teams? You explain that Vivax is more likely town than me because of the relationship with Xata, yet never once bring up the topic of myself and Xata. In what way does that make sense? Vivax, I want you to read the bolded, I looked at Superbia/Xatalos actions and I looked (if you haven't read my filter) at Kita interactions with Superbia/Xatalos. I felt his were more on solid ground and less likely to be mafia motivated than Superbia's/Xatalos. Why do you think this method of PoEing into you as the final mafia is flawed? From that same vantage point, why WOULD you think Kita/Superbia/Xatalos interactions are mafia motivated (from Kita) or DO you think so? If you don't understand me now, I'll try and hash it out when I'm well out of the airport. | ||
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I do it all the time in real life. And how are you going back and forth from your penultimate read clearing me and then saying "oh wait she's thinking of teams ahead, she's mafia" that makes zero sense especially when most of thread sentiment has been to sit on their bums and wait for the flip once the team is submitted. You also have failed to take into account that especially most of the first half of this game I have had VERY little choice in when I could play this game and until yesterday very little time period to play, with 3 15-hour days at work so far with this game. I have had to choose between posting when I actually can post or not posting at all. Additionally, you are unfamiliar with this game so from that standpoint alone - I know you scumread me from the beginning when I did that, so why aren't you tagging sicklucker (or did you and I just missed skimming it????) for doing the same thing in round 2 when we were both convinced the mission would fail on a 7-2 vote? | ||
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On November 13 2015 00:42 ShoCkeyy wrote: HtS how long will you be in NYC? I'll be up there next week for a few meetings. 10 days. 21/22nd. Beware though, I work minimum 12 hours when I'm here. And then I want to shoot myself after! | ||
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On November 13 2015 00:45 ShoCkeyy wrote: ##Nominate ShoCkeyy, Vivax, Artanis, Sicklucker Okay, I know you don't like rayn/Coagulation. Why Vivax/Artanis over myself? I need more information from Kita/Vivax before I feel comfortable voting ANY team with either on it. | ||
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On November 13 2015 00:42 sicklucker wrote: Hts from your perspective you know one of art/rels is scum. Even if your pretty sure on rels its still silly to nominate the other. Im in the same spot with rayn and am only willing after he spewed out of the game. If we were desperate i would understand taking that leap of faith but I think we already have a solid 4 we can come back ot that decisions on mission 4 or 5 I understand and do not disagree here. I would submit me/you/Shockey/Coag. The real problem is if Shockey cannot trust Coag, and you want me to hold off on Artanis, then I don't know how the hell I'm going to confidently figure out Kita v Vivax before a (now) 1800 deadline. Once I clear the airport, I have to work 6-7h, that will take me easily closer to 2000 EDT. | ||
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And people shouting that 2 mafia cannot have voted NO, it's called dissociation. Is it LESS LIKELY than just ONE mafia? Of course. But I made the point that Xatalos was already on the team, he just needed to vote yes. That's IT. Why do you think we're in the position that we are in right now? Scum know they have had us fooled. I'm not saying it's absolutely the case and sicklucker I get why you want to townread Rels over Artanis but there are a number of things in Rels filter I do NOT like, and especially the flip in reads on Artanis/rayn/myself.... rayn being mafia? no. Just no. I don't even. Among other things. | ||
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On November 13 2015 00:52 ShoCkeyy wrote: Because HtS votes yes on both failed missions and has the most consistent yes votes along side with Xata and Rayn. Doesn't make her scum, but that voting pattern scares the shit out of me. Did you read my explanations for why I voted yes and do you think they are town or scum motivated? Ask that to yourself. If you don't buy it fine, but I also tried to explain to you why rayn's behaviour is NAI. A lot of people DO shit up the thread as mafia, but rayn will always pick shitfights as town. It is just who he is as a player. | ||
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Now I have to go, and fight the customs battle at JFK. Christ I hate this airport. | ||
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On November 13 2015 01:30 kitaman27 wrote: This has to be the most sketchy thing you've said all game Rels. It's stuff like this that makes me think he's reaching for scumreads. Post #2341 is a good example of this. Look at his read progression on Artanis/rayn and myself from his posts into 2343/2344 from 2364 and 2365. How does he put rayn as mafia? Look at the flips on Artanis and myself. Also Rels calling me defensive (ie a reason to call me scum) when it is he who brings up that same reasoning 4h ago in #2566, how would he expect me not to respond to that? He's been hammering that point up all game until Kita called him on it. From my mindset, if he's town (and I don't think he is for other reasons) he's not familiar with thinking ahead, if he's mafia, he needs a reason to see my behaviour as mafia. Regardless of familiarity, the fact that Kita is able to see a town mindset from #2566 and Rels was not able to for the better part of the game (after me telling him multiple times) is telling. | ||
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Kita, regarding the scum meta on SOTW 2 and Drams, being on mobile, I cannot quote, but I will do my best to try and direct you based on everything I recall. From those two games, Rels thrives in environments where there are scummy townies. The same parallel is here - you have Schokey and myself scumread nearly all game until this most recent cycle and sicklucker has and still has chock decent doubt on him. Let me try and break it down as best I can. SOTW 2 - scumteam were Damdred/Rels/Fidei 1 The scummy townies from my own recollection from DAY ONE are: Shining (day vigged day 1)/Dandel Ion (lynched day 1 because of activity/nonsensical)/LightningStrike and there might have been one more. If I recall right, focus on the interactions between Rels vs Lightning Strike and I BELEIVE Dandel Ion. HE IS OUT TO GET THEM. Rels is able to take control of the thread day 2 onwards because he is the only one that fully understands the complex mechanics of SOTW 2 and rayn was forced to trust him. A lot of the tone reads you cite here are present there and you will see are NAI. Battle of the Drams - scumteam sicklucker/Rels/Shining 1 Again focus on interactions. The scummy townies this game were scott31337 (replaced in and mislynched day 1 for J-Roc a smurf who left him in a bad position), coolTLname (mislynched day 2, unfamiliar with TL mafia style coming from SC2 mafia). He pushed Trfel hard early day 1 (607/620) from baic questions, coolTL name from #751/753 in that thread. Also look at 751/753 posts in Drams and compare that to the posts in this game where he's pushing Artanis. There are places he stretches the truth and I caught where he was doing that with Artanis this game. And people who want to townread Rels on activity. No. Filters - SOTW 2 - 21 pages (3 cycles I think, endgamed n3) Drams - 28 pages (3 cycles I think, conceded n3 as the entire scumteam was exposed) | ||
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If I can find that shit on here you'll see why a lot of his posting can easily come from mafia mindset. The kicker is you need to see the parallels from those two games plus this game and you need to see how he pushes townies that arent' clear in their thinking, or in the case of Trfel, someone who is nto very confident in the way they are going. Rels' tone is very similar between both games. If you want a decent town game I would try Newbie 13 (I want to say 13, it was the one where n00bking rage quit). Obviously I'm not delusional here, 90% of this game I've been on my phone so I've not been able to case or articulate the way I've wanted to like previous games, it's been almost exclusively thought dumpting all game from me and I have just not adjusted well to that. | ||
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Because right now, scum see an opportunity to get their final mafia on this team and this is the equivalent of triple lylo and we honestly need all hands on deck. We are having a VERY difficult time between Kita/Vivax and some looking into Artanis. I'll continue doing my part but you really need to help by doing yours. | ||
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Easy, me and sicklucker whom any townie familiar with his game should know that he's not the most articulate person in the world. He's been jumped on all game for stuff not lining up. Which is exactly why I sought his side form his perspective as screwy as he might play this game, that's the way it is. I've played games with him as town, as mafia and hosted several games where he was mafia. If ANYONE should have his alignment spot on especially by lategame, it's me. Early game, not so much but lategame absolutely. LightningStrike isn't present this game and neither is marv/JAT/etc but they are examples of others who do better with figuring him out. | ||
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On November 13 2015 01:00 ShoCkeyy wrote: ##Nominate ShoCkeyy, Vivax, HtS, Sicklucker oops. I am going to look into Vivax and the voting patterns again....since that is what my priority should be. Here's the thing, Rels is mafia. This is my world. Rels wanting to replace Vivax out is scaring the shit out of me (#2640) and earlier he wanted to swap Shockey in (forget the mission number) for Superbia (#2156). The mafia motivation for this is an easier fall guy whom at the time was being universally scumread or near universally scumread. This would point to a Xatalos/Rels/Kitaman team in which case I'd have to re-review sicklucker and Vivax's points against them. Do the votes make sense.... This would mean rayn was right early game to be more hesistant to townread Kita....and that Rels townread....ignorance or a reason to get him on the team. WHY IS THIS GAME SO HARD. #rantover | ||
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I've reached my destination in Manhattan, I have to go for now. | ||
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(No I am not trying to determine his alignment, but rather trying to figure out whether we focus on getting Shockey out of the tunnel or we try and work on Vivax.) Off I go lovelies. | ||
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On November 13 2015 03:23 Vivax wrote: I'm at a friends pc while he eats, wont stick around for long until I get back home. Coag, something's off about you? Where's the townie seal I am eagerly expecting? Er....I take it the answer to my previous question was no? | ||
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On November 13 2015 03:31 Vivax wrote: You don't just walk into TL and townread kita. Especially when he pushes my slot who will start expelling massive townie bricks when I have more time for this game. I just went a bit over Xatalos last pages and I like where his head is, actually. I need more time for this game :> , but my SL read will probably stay as it is, so will the kita read. The last mafia is tricky but I'm leaning towards HTS. This is fair enough. Because I haven't forgotten what you did in Gaiden when you nailed the remaining members of the scumteam so I know what you are capable of. If you are town, please make it easier for me to upvote what Shockey has. Also remember there was early discussion on why Kita's posts were NAI. I haven't forgotten that either. And sicklucker who I am strongly townreading had a lot of suspicion towards Kita. | ||
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On November 07 2015 11:04 sicklucker wrote: kitaman the angle your pushing is pushed on me everygame EVERYGAME. I ignore it because its dumb and it does not make anyone scum. Its literraly a mix up of words. Even if I said it the way you want me to have said it that does not make me scum On November 07 2015 21:44 sicklucker wrote: Anyway we need to vote no to todays noms its going to fail over half the time its just a bad mission with the info I have. I obviously have more info but come on you guys can peice this together to you have to. If you guys dont get off your ass we already lost this game. Id say town has under a 10% chance reading the thread the last day. Mission team needs to include hts and rels. I might even gamble with someone like shockey at thes point. I think the third scum is one of kita/super who is trying to distance and put scum on me. Like all kita is talking about is some stupid shit I wrote out of context over a week ago. Whatever one of you is town get your head out of your ass On November 08 2015 01:49 sicklucker wrote: you dont? I have no reason to believe he cares about whats going on except putting scum on me and asking me the same stupid qeustion On November 09 2015 03:40 sicklucker wrote: its the worst attempt i ever ever seen. Like you dont even know your top scum reads. reads? your wrong about like 4 people on that list. more like town shockey rels hts scum everyone else but especially you On November 09 2015 03:48 sicklucker wrote: kitas whole being town platform this game is questioning me on my reads. but he just proved he did not even know my reads? anyone? anyone seeing this? On November 12 2015 18:55 sicklucker wrote: anyway kita it looks like the majority of the game dont want you and your buddy on any missions. so take your rels town read to the timeout corner Going to task Personality Mafia parallels tonight with this game.... Also someone else (Artanis? I forget whom?) said they had issues following Kita's reads throughout the game. I know earlier I cited the two list posts or the one list post or whatever.... Maybe another parallel to look for there. Takeaway from Personality Mafia where mafia Kita carried was that his game was squeaky clean (WaveofShadow) and the amount of posting increased exponentially as the game went into lategame (Damdred). So now I have to crosscheck lack of reads here with Personality and then contrast all the parallels from these two games with more recent town games....ones I remember are JOAT and Aperture. Both spamfests. Great. At least this gives me a starting point for the Kita tinfoil. And off I go yet again. | ||
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On November 13 2015 03:31 Vivax wrote: You don't just walk into TL and townread kita. Especially when he pushes my slot who will start expelling massive townie bricks when I have more time for this game. I just went a bit over Xatalos last pages and I like where his head is, actually. I need more time for this game :> , but my SL read will probably stay as it is, so will the kita read. The last mafia is tricky but I'm leaning towards HTS. sicklucker and Kita have been at it at each other nearly all game. Why do you think (or am I misreading) they are double bussing? Are you sure those interactions are scum on scum? How do you know that Kita isn't doing the same thing to sicklucker that you claim he's (analogously) doing to you? | ||
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It's not going to do town any good if I'm the only one in the game understanding his approach to the game. Lex do you have any additional experience with scum Kita btw that I should be on the lookout for? Going to extensively meta him tonight. Some of the things in 2765 have me a bit wary at the moment (particularly WoS' caution about his squeaky clean scumgame) but I am going to try and compare to his games in JOAT/Aperture to be sure. | ||
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On November 13 2015 06:56 Vivax wrote: I can tell you already that I would send or accept HTS/Coag/Artanis/myself. I can compromise on swapping myself out with either Shockey or Xata (who I think is more likely to be town than SL) if you don't trust me. If you also TR rayn who in my opinion is a good player but had to be wrong on someone last cycle, that sort of coincides with his reads, with exception of HTS/Shockey. I'm so sure on Xatalos and Rels as spies at this point but if we must compromise and you want SL out, then Shockey in for sure. Also the frustrating thing here is that rayn is town but Coag needs to do his part in getting Shockey out of the tunnel. Goddamnit. Part of the problem there from Shockey's POV is that rayn voted for two failed missions and was in two failed missions but that must mean that who else is scum? But there's a reason that not even scum are trying to bury him for that even. His reads were off this game (Shockey/myself) so that should lend clear to him as to why he voted that way and put the people on his mission that he did. And to be quite frank, if it comes down to you and Xatalos, I would take you over Xatalos by a country mile. Because I really really think he's mafia and if he gets on a team again, this game is over. | ||
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I know what he is capable of when he bleeds town, namely Gaiden. So I am going to give him his chance. | ||
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On November 13 2015 07:07 Vivax wrote: He's a good mafia, will never forget the game where cultkush converted him and then he owned the town :/. I'd claim he can be on the level of BH in mafia mini mafia which is recent, if he puts enough effort into it. I don't think he's on the level of BH in this game teehee. I think the best way to read him is just checking if he pushes townies (or scum objectives) or is actually believably correct on something.Imo he has been focusing on the wrong things, like his setup talk in the start when to me all the exchanges between Xata/super and rayn/Rels felt really interesting (although he could only have commented on Xata/super, rayn/rels happened later and I have to see if he took a stance there). And he has tried to push my slot as being spy which I also didn't like. I thought my slot was looking townier than Xata at the beginning of the game. Well setup talk is always NAI. I get that. But the latter exchange with rayn/Rels is a blur so I go and add that to the Kita meta read tonight then. And Kita's game so far has had that squeaky clean attribute that WoS described in Personality Mafia. In both my worlds with Xata as scum, there was SOME double bussing going on and there was disassociation day 1 (which is what my scumreads are pushing against because it is obviously less likrly), so for me it's an issue of metareading and re-checking filters. The problem is for me there's a lot of stuff in the filters esp with Rels that really don't add up and when you do associative from Rels it's pointing to Kita as scum. | ||
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On November 13 2015 07:07 kitaman27 wrote: I think this is more than enough evidence that he hasn't looked at me in the slightest. If he honestly isn't familiar with my interaction with SL, yet concludes that SL and myself are buddies together, how can anyone possibly think that his read is legitimate? He attacks me for the "meh I don't care" post an hour into the game and he attacks me for the "spammy" list thing I did last night, but completely ignores any analysis relevant to the events of the game. Kita Vivax has said he's not have had the time to play this game. He is probably going to have bad and/or suboptimal reads regardless of alignment. Why are you suggesting (if you are?) this could be mafia motivated? | ||
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On November 13 2015 07:18 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Anyway, gone for the rest of the night. Good night Lex <3 I know I'm right on sicklucker and Xatalos. I just wish we were both a little more articulate about it (although it's better for sicklucker at this point to be so). I tried explaining it once. Ugh. | ||
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On November 13 2015 07:07 Vivax wrote: He's a good mafia, will never forget the game where cultkush converted him and then he owned the town :/. I'd claim he can be on the level of BH in mafia mini mafia which is recent, if he puts enough effort into it. I don't think he's on the level of BH in this game teehee. I think the best way to read him is just checking if he pushes townies (or scum objectives) or is actually believably correct on something.Imo he has been focusing on the wrong things, like his setup talk in the start when to me all the exchanges between Xata/super and rayn/Rels felt really interesting (although he could only have commented on Xata/super, rayn/rels happened later and I have to see if he took a stance there). And he has tried to push my slot as being spy which I also didn't like. I thought my slot was looking townier than Xata at the beginning of the game. There was a very recent example of this - Kita carried mafia in the New Personality Mafia which is why I've picked that game to meta (he aliased as Judge Judy). | ||
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On November 13 2015 19:24 Rels wrote: HTS you need to stop being so tunneled and THINK You are town => Arta is scum Others have to decide which of you, or if both of you are scum, but you have a big chance: you know your alignement. Two people voted YES on the first team and wasn't on the first team: there is 99% chance one of them if scum. And YOU are one of them. Here you are pushing a me + Vivax or me + kita team, which is extremely unlikely. I know where you are. I was tunneled on you with rayn before, specificaly for that reason: you refuse to admit two people voting NO is next to impossible with such a close vote. Your stubborness modkilled rayn. Don't make it lose the game and think; even if you can't decide I'm town, at least stop townreading Arta, 'cause it doesn't make sense. BTW if you're scum and Arta is town, fucking WP. I mean, it's more Arta failing than you being good in this case, but WP for keeping the effort. HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Rels, I know you're mafia here, but on the bolded, thanks for making me laugh. rayn lacked self-control, that's why he was modkilled, not because of anyone. Honestly it didn't matter what my reads were at the time or what I was doing, what happened, happened. And Rels, there's so many things wrong with your filter, it's not funny. Funny that Artanis even highlighted some of them. Again, Xatalos got on that team, and that's all that needed to happen with where the reads of people were. rayn was scumreading Superbia, you, and myself at the time, and he pushed sicklucker over Artanis because the "scummier" people were voting for the team. If you voted yes, with a mission failure and you couldn't line your stuff up as scum, you'd look bad. And scum are concerned about how they look. Voting no doesn't necessarily vindicate you when there's other things going on. | ||
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I'm going to explain sicklucker's read flip on you, since (sigh) he failed to do it himself. I saw the reasoning in the thread, but I'll walk you through it. I think you should focus on his mindset and Rels' especially, if you think sicklucker in his flip on you is being mafia motivated or if he's falling for the whole "omg only one person could have voted no" and not take anything else into consideration. Start at the conversation from pages 126-128 (between SL and Rels) and then follow these quotes from page 130 through http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=130#2595 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=131#2609 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=131#2610 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=131#2612 I remember it because I had just touched down into the US and Shockey was trying to pick the teams. But basically he's convinced that only one person voted no. Even then, the interactions should tell you something about Rels. On November 12 2015 20:55 sicklucker wrote: Maybe art just wanted more information? Every vote is more info for town its pretty smart to vote no alot as town. Like really smart... That post indicates that SL wasn't out to get you in that convo. He was thinking it through. Read in that convo up to post 2558 and you can see why Rels is pushing that one line of thinking so hard after sicklucker was taking other things into consideration ("that false world" in post 2558). That's another thought process from his end that should make him more towny if you can see it. | ||
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On November 13 2015 08:04 Vivax wrote: Actually I want to take this to a new level kita, cause just as I realized while checking if you posted any teams, I also realized there's little point in calling people mafia if you can't start pushing preferred teams and making compromises with others (which is what you have been lacking). Mention a team of people you would accept being sent, cause there's little point in me just calling you mafia if what we're discussing isn't a team with you on it. On November 13 2015 08:08 Vivax wrote: Cause one particular thing about this game is that mafia has an easier time just creating scum combinations and being "whatevs" if anyone of the spies outside of that team makes it (cause then they will just vote yes with a short term justification whenever one of them makes it into the team). Which is what you have been doing contrary to other people who actually propose teams of townreads, not scumreads. These are actually really good posts. (#2714/2715) | ||
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Then later on, this quote more or less supports my "let's see where everyone stands" theory. On November 05 2015 22:10 Rels wrote: rayn and you are town. SL I'm not sure. Nothing scummy, but he's not doing much. Arta tomorrow will probably elect you / rayn / him; my vote will depend on who I think is towniest between SL and Arta at deadline. Waiting on Arta's answers to me + his analysis on me he said he would do. Page 65 you're voting no, rayn is trying to still push the team though in the argument between him and you, although his pushing we might need another look at. (page 64-65) In any case, to answer you Rels, a scum Rels would know that Xatalos is obviously going to vote yes on the team he puts through. You're waiting for SL, so that's basically the reason for you to vote no. What I'm trying to say is that you voting no doesn't necessarily vindicate you from being scum. Especially if everyone else's thoughts are making sense. Does this make sense now? Actually the biggest problem overall is that you are almost overfocusing on the votes alone, and there are other layers to this game (namely the filters when I look at theirs and when I look at yours). Obviously we're "forced" to eliminate one of you and PoE it down to two townies. Duh, of course that's what scum are banking on here. And there was a really good gem from rayn on Kita that I'll put in another post. It's decent food for discussion. | ||
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On November 06 2015 02:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Rels, why did you flip your Rayn read based on things that had already happened before you townread him initially? What made you think about him again? Your argument's revolved around things he should know, but no part of your argument was new to when you said he was definitely town. On November 06 2015 02:18 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Like you went from calling him basically confirmed town to very suspicious in 3 hours without anything seemingly triggering you. On November 06 2015 06:28 Rels wrote: I'm on phone so no quote: read my big post. The first line is something like "I thought he was confirmed because he made a very similar post about noobking in newbie XIII". But actually its super suspicious that he uses this game to prove that my case are boring, when my play D1 this game was boring. Now he defends himself saying "But its not THIS kind of boring!", when he clearly said in example of me being town " look how he's always looking for something new on noobking". I get that this is not very clear without quote; read my big post and the reactions after it to understand. On November 06 2015 06:35 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Yeah but what made you think about this? He hadn't said anything new since your last post. On November 06 2015 06:40 Rels wrote: I don't know. I just thought about it and realized it didn't make sense to take as example a push of mine in one game, and forget another one in the same game that was the opposite. So Rels ends with an "I don't know" which indicates it might not be a natural thought process, and mafia have to make something up here. Which lends this to being scum-indicative. He also fails to answer the question as to whether rayn did anything new or that he did anything new to change that read or not (Artanis' "he hadn't said anything new [for you to think] since your last post"). I think (???) rayn called him on this earlier but in any case this was a bit easier to follow. | ||
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On November 06 2015 00:36 raynpelikoneet wrote: Well he's gonna vote yes since we are all mafia, then we just don't send any of us into next missions and his town wins. EZPZ. Unless he wants to claim scum ofc.. On November 06 2015 00:38 raynpelikoneet wrote: He said if one of me / you were on mission 1 it's okay, because the other two are town, so he would know for sure who is scum. But if me AND you are on the mission, he wouldn't know for sure which one of us is scum. But then he also townreads everyone except for me/you/sl, so why would he need to "figure out which one of rayn/xatalosis mafia" in the first place? On November 06 2015 00:39 raynpelikoneet wrote: and this points to kitaman being scum. because i think the real reason was not to "not have both of xatalos/rayn on a mission" but instead have mafia on a mission -> kitaman. This (assuming rayn didn't misread) actually further lends support to the Xatalos/(whoever)/Kita scum team. Or in the infintessimally small chance that I'm wrong on Xatalos, that Kita is scum without using any meta. | ||
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On November 13 2015 23:26 sicklucker wrote: hts you dont have to convince anyone of my alignment. We either lose here or im confirmed town anyway Eh part of this problem is that townies are scumreading other townies. I still remember NSM6. Town lost because everyone was tunnelling the wrong people for the wrong reasons. I think the same thing is sort of happening here, and people are missing important things. I was trying to look into Kitaman as well to be honest. Because the way it's looking right now, I might have been wrong here - Vivax is looking more town and Kita not so much. That last thing by rayn shows something potentially fabricated by Kita and even if I cannot stand the former's way of working with people, his nitpickiness does ferret out key things like this. Which means we could likely have a team on board - even if it is one that Shockey didn't want - that will successfully complete this upcoming mission. Shockey/me/Vivax/sicklucker Right now? I would bet on this. | ||
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On November 13 2015 23:39 kitaman27 wrote: You're really starting to become difficult to deal with, which is problematic considering that I want to town read you. Please lets not go through another Aperature Like I told Rels, ignore post #2801. I'm reading the thread and 2 filters at once. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=51#1018 so rayn was the other saying Kita didn't have concrete reads, need to match up with Personality when I return. Now I'm off. | ||
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On November 14 2015 01:29 Vivax wrote: I don't think I'll be pursuing further conversation with you, kita. I'm dead set on you being mafia, you are on me. I'm perfectly fine with just no-voting any future team with you in it, and so should you, this game isn't about lynching. Just hope to catch you in another game where you're actually town. HTS/me/Artanis/Coag ftw. Swap me for Shockey, or Xata if needed. Btw I hardly see people considering putting Arta on a team, which I really don't get. 1. He looks townish, 2. He's good at resistance. I really think you are town here, you're wrong on sicklucker v Xatalos - but from what I can tell how you think SL is mafia - but not because your thinking comes from a mafia mindset. With the associative read from Rels pointing right at Kita it makes me more confident of this. (And then I saw Kita's latest proposed scumteam and I just facepalmed.) #2 honestly is NAI, but Artanis' posting really doesn't appear to be coming from a mafia mindset. If people are afraid of sicklucker or cannot decide sicklucker v Xatalos, then pick any 4 of the 5 we're most sure on: Vivax/Artanis/Coag/Shockey/myself If anyone's afraid of me, just leave me off. I can trust the other four. | ||
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6000! And for my 6000th post, it is aimed at Vivax. You stated how Xatalos you thought his mindset was town. Explain the town mindset from this set of quotes (for full context pages 111-115, when the mission is deemed passed) On November 10 2015 21:54 Xatalos wrote: I was considering voting YES (since the next leaders wouldn't most likely suggest anything better than this), but these endorsements really give me the creeps....... Both SL/HTS being excited about the team..... Geh :/ Kind of feels like there could be scum included after all. Thoughts, rayn? On November 10 2015 22:00 Xatalos wrote: You seemed very confident in the earlier me/SL argument though? You mean they could be trying to reproduce that argument now....? I guess it's possible. Still concerns me quite a bit.... On November 10 2015 22:02 Xatalos wrote: Then again, otherwise this will probably go to SL's decision -> fail..... It's like picking between ebola and AIDS.... On November 10 2015 22:33 Xatalos wrote: Mainly just that I'm not that confident on them + SL/HTS endorsing this team. It's not like it's the worst team in itself. Just not the best, and endorsed by the two most likely scum :/ Then we had this. On November 11 2015 08:03 Fidei86 wrote: Day 2 raynpelikoneet's Nomination (raynpelikoneet, kitaman, Rels, Vivax) Vote Result Half the Sky - YES Xatalos - YES Artanis[Xp] - NO raynpelikoneet - YES ShoCkeyy - YES Rels - YES sicklucker - NO kitaman27 - YES Vivax - YES MISSION IS APPROVED raynpelikoneet, kitaman, Rels and Vivax will be embarking on Mission 2 Mission will be completed in at 23:00 GMT (+00:00) on 11 November 2015. And as we know that mission failed. One thing to note in Xatalos' explanation to rayn (expand the 4th condensed quote) is that he was very vague (again another example of a vague explanation from Xata when he's mafia) in saying "not the very best/worst" as opposed to explaining to rayn why either of Kita or Rels was or was not mafia. Him not giving a direct response on the individuals up for discussion here (Kita/Rels) and instead using how sicklucker and I reacted to the team shows he's trying to disassociate from them (or at least giving reads on them since for whatever reason he has to watch himself). Now I voted for this team myself as you can see - yes - but it was after re-reading Rels' filter and re-considering other things, which I came forward with immediately when I saw the voting results. | ||
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On November 14 2015 03:33 sicklucker wrote: How sure are you that vivax is town More than half. In a short rundown: - similar reads to mine, which is more critical as we're in the late game. Look at Kita's last suggested possible scumteam (Vivax/Artanis/ and either you or Xatalos) - does that make any sense to you? Can you draw any association with that at all? - aside from OMGUS, which omgus in of itself is NAI, can you find any mafia agenda/mindset in Vivax's posting? His expectations from Kita, are somewhat meta based (for example post #2838), which shouldn't be hard to tell if you are reading his posts correctly. - Vivax is scumreading you, but the process is clear but he's not out to bury you, he even said he'd read Kita's materials on you. Compare and contrast the approaches of those willing to re-evaluate and those that aren't. In fact look at Kita's approach to Vivax, early on you can see how Vivax tries to engage Kita (it was right after the team was formally nominated) Kita sounds reasonable yeh, but he was like this in Personality. He's got a calm reasonable go as both alignments. The kicker here is that Vivax is appearing to expose an agenda (e.g #2836) Admittedly the associative read between Rels/Kita is also making me more sure it's a Xata/Rels/Kita team. | ||
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On November 14 2015 03:57 sicklucker wrote: 5. ShoCkeyy 6. Rels -likely scum 7. sicklucker - no one will vote yes on my team 8. kitaman27 - scum 9. Vivax - Him controlling the vote is the same as me amusing hes town eh acualy we probably have to vote here to win hts scum controls most of the noms. Gambling on vivax is a big risk but he controls the 5th and last nomination so we may as well gamble on him with the team of are choice. He will probably put a worse team up if hes town They will vote yes on your team if the team doesn't include yourself. I know you're town, but other townies are scared of you. Look at Vivax's combination and except for Xata, you find the rest of his suggestions palatable, you should. If there's a reason you want me to downvote this team instead let me know. From general thread sentiment I gather it won't pass. | ||
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On November 14 2015 04:04 sicklucker wrote: Alright hts you gotta be that dude from house of cards and wrangle up the votes we need. I can help but Ill probably jsut make it worse I'm still at work. Remember I'm stateside for another 8 days | ||
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He was re-evaluating both you and sicklucker in any case. Kita, Kita, you are breaking my heart. | ||
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On November 14 2015 04:21 ShoCkeyy wrote: Because in the end then that should mean Xata is town, you're town, Rels is town, everyone could be town... Like you seriously think that by having some one that was in two failed missions could possible be more town? That's the complete wrong logic to think about it by. I don't care how good meta read he is, it's the worst thing to do is place him into another team when two with him already have failed. Don't give two shits if he's town or not. I rather just not have him on a team again... You need to ask yourself why mafia are NOT trying to bury him (note: I'm not saying this makes you mafia) when he was on both failed missions. I don't know if you are biased somewhat because of how rayn was treating/reading you earlier this game but if you ignore everything he has said and done towards you this game and focus on the way he was reading others, ask yourself if that come from a town or a mafia mindset. (I realise Coag's inactivity isn't helping atm, but that is a separate issue.) | ||
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IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO UPVOTE THIS TEAM. | ||
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On November 14 2015 05:53 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I said that the way he was pushing it, he seemed to be trying to bury Rels. That's how I read it. I didn't have much time. I mentioned this as soon as the game started. I also shared my reads when I had them. I've explained this before. I thought all three players were likely town. If I was correct in that, I got to nominate myself the day after with the group and win the game. I took a risk in presuming all three were town and it didn't pay off, but the logic is certainly there. You're simply framing it in a mafia mindset when the townie mindset is obvious. The chart was a single moment in time. Sicklucker had been open and aggressive. I didn't have time on Day 1. Monday through Wednesday are very busy days for me. I can keep repeating that if you want. Furthermore, no team that I wanted that I could suggest would go through. By sending a mission that would not pass through, there'd be more days to gather information and I'd have more time to actually get more accurate reads as well as make myself townread and get on a mission I favour. So now I'm being scumread for voting no on a mission with scum on it. Yeah, I'm pretty sure you came into this analysis with a made up mind already. I'm sorry that I didn't have the time to push hard on not wanting the mission to go through. That doesn't actually make me scum. Outcome does not matter, it's the mindset going into it that matters. I really don't believe any scum player, especially Superbia would come up with the idea of "let's attack Xatalos for some awkward wording he made and keep hammering on about it for no reason, I'm sure that's going to get me so much towncred!" I really don't. Scumreading eachother is also not as big a deal in Resistance as it is in real mafia, since it only matters to get on a mission yourself. I play a reply-based game. Look at all my town games. I gain reads through interaction and push those reads through, which is what I have been doing all game (albeit not pushing them as hard as usual, which is due to restricted time). I'm also clearly not avoiding confrontations as can be observed by how I've treated Xatalos, Rels, and Sicklucker this game. Your analysis suggests you've made up your mind before even going through my filter. It makes me pretty sure you're scum. Furthermore, the fact that Xata seems to have gone MIA and isn't really trying anymore leads me to believe he's probably the last scum since I don't think he does that as town. That, combined with the resistance from scummy players to this team leads me to want to yayvote it. sicklucker, read the last paragraph from Artanis. Does that look like mafia Artanis to you? + Show Spoiler + It's not. | ||
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On November 14 2015 05:15 kitaman27 wrote: Why do you say this though? By throwing a few questions my way about town reads? When I respond to him with a second explanation of my town read on Rels he responds with the random "DUNKED" comment. This isn't interacting with me. It takes me asking him to comment on Rels for him to respond. I also ask for him to comment about artanis and he gives a one liner without explanation that he is town. I ask him to explain the kita + SL read further by reading my filter and he states that he won't be discussing things with me further because I'm scum. He is not re-evaluating me. He claims that he has read the first six pages of my filter. He later states that he hasn't had a chance to look at my interaction with SL yet. How is this possible? Pages four through six of my filter are essentially ALL INTERACTIONS with sicklucker. Here are a bunch of posts that he would have had to read. So did he miss all of these during his "re-evaluation"? He very well could have not read properly if he was short on time. He owned up to the fact he was short on time. I remember that when he told me he was short on time. Does that exclusively make him scum? No. | ||
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At least you can't kill me again like you did in Personality though. That was evil, what you did to me. | ||
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On November 14 2015 07:13 Vivax wrote: I really have a hard time here deciding if I should send SL on this mission. I wrote up a post on trying to get (I forget who it was) someone to get out of their tunnel on sicklucker. Basically to try and understand why the things he does is not necessarily scum. I'll try and dig it out. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=109#2170 Also I urge you to look at the last team that sicklucker proposed if he wouldn't be on it. You asked him yourself. Coag/Vivax/HTS/Shockey Now you tell me if he might be town or mafia based on that | ||
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But no worries, he will never put Rels on a team, rest assured. | ||
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Shockey here's the thing. if you think mafia are trying to keep rayn in, then who are the scumteam? | ||
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Because I am sure you nominated a clean team. I realised you thought you made a mistake but that doesn't mean we cannot discuss whoever you put up here. | ||
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Coagulation, whenever you get the chance, if you have a list post, it would be really helpful. Potential scumteam(s) would be a bonus. | ||
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On November 14 2015 08:01 kitaman27 wrote: Crazy stuff happening in France. Hope everything is alright Rels. OH SHIT. Oh wow. I really hope you are okay. | ||
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On November 14 2015 08:08 Rels wrote: Thanks mates that touch me a lot. I'm OK. Fuck them all THANK GOD, I was worried knowing what I know about you (outside this game). I'm so sorry and I hope everyone is safe. | ||
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On November 14 2015 21:18 Xatalos wrote: HTS is the most likely other scum yeah. Her terrible vote record and bullshit reasons to push me/rayn after the first fail should be reason enough. The last scum I'm not sure about atm. I thought it was Rels, but then he voted NO to the team just now....... Hm. I guess it could be Artanis as well. His vote record approaches HTS levels of bad if we include this most recent vote. It's probably not you, also considering the most recent vote as well. Meh. But SL/HTS I'm like 95+% are scum at least. Hahahahahahaha!!!!! I have never once scumread Rayn. Hilarious. | ||
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On November 14 2015 22:17 Vivax wrote: Fair point, I shall revisit HTS. But it would mean that I'm wrong on kita and that's kinda tough cause I always had a bad feeling about him. Tinfoil request accepted. Coag might as well not have voted anything and have defaulted to no on the last mission. Maybe spies missed a victory just cause he's a lazy bum lolz. Fidei said he didn't receive all the votes. Vivax In both cases I explained why I voted for the failed teams. And if it comes to it I can come up with the teams you need that leave myself off. The scumteam are Xata/Rels/Kita so its super easy to sort out the rest. What I suggest you look at is the rationale leading up to the failed votes. Xatalos should have never voted mission 2 on for all the reservations he had. Also extra town points to you (Vivax) for the smokescreen...not like you needed them. I have no idea tbf what Coagulation is doing though. | ||
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I am sure rayn had the same rationale or explained why he was doing what he was doing prior to voting for the failed missions. | ||
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I also recall sicklucker and I calling out people right when the mission 2 team votes passed and we knew immediately the team would fail. He mentioned something about Rels should have never passed the team based on his reads but there I honestly cannot remember why. Xatalos was more obvious because I'd actually caught it and he put the frame of reference on "sicklucker/myself upvoting the team" rather than what he thought of Kita Rels when Rayn queried him. | ||
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AFK for a 15km run then I will be in and out. | ||
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On November 14 2015 19:37 sicklucker wrote: So all this analyst confirms that the scum team is xata/rels/kits + an outside chance of vivax but this is less likely because he had a very good inthread excuse to vote. I think if hes mafia here he would have voted yes so acualy im pretty sure on vivax vivax can be town. Art is also likely town but his yes vote is worrisome since his last inthread posts were talking about how he cant vote yes because of me. But his most likely partner is hts. Hts is probably on my mission so including art is not the worst. Replacing coag with art is possible. That leaves me with coag. im not as sure as the rest of you that hes town but there are obvious meta reasons to think thats the case. While I originally wanted to include him im thinking I might not just because the last team seemed pure already based on votes. He was on both missions and there is weird worlds were he is scum with the no voters. one of ryan/art will have ot be included on mission 4/5 anyway so I dont think it matters much if we put one of the two on the missions. Acualy since we need 5 confirmed towns heres what I promise to do on my noms. I will try to nominate a team of 4 that does not include myself. This will confirm me (again) and the 4 people who I submitted. This will give us 5 confirmed towns and force the scum the concede earlier and make you morons less suspicious of me since im not submitting myself. But if I have doubts I will include myself 100% agreed. btw | ||
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On November 14 2015 22:49 Xatalos wrote: Much like shockeyy, you never directly called him scum, but made a lot of posts putting suspicion on him. rayn himself at least was sure that you pushed him. Stop distorting the facts. I explained multiple times over that rayn's behaviour was TOXIC but NON ALIGNMENT INDICTATIVE. I also fuether defined what i meant by toxic for town. This was because at the time I felt Shockey was wrongfully scumreading him. Shockley's conclusion was reasonable as Mafia do prefer to shit up the thread at times but he doesn't know rayn's meta and there's where I did examples. Rayn saying that I was scumreading him (and I told him it was not true either) was because he cannot take any criticism of his play and it had ZERO to do with determining alignments. I corrected him as well. Fair bit of reaching you are doing there. | ||
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as for Kita's voting record, again disassociation. Same thing I told with Rels and sicklucker called the same thing out earlier, Rels voting no alone will not vindicate him. The SAME applies for Kita. All you people need to do is ensure but one Mafia get on a team and then cruise on that regardless of who voted what. The voting records are one set of data points, filters/reads etc are a big part as well. | ||
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Why do you think I was trying to convince Shockey out of the tunnel? In what world does that make sense if I thought Rayn was scum? Please. This is pretty pathetic from you because you are scumreading me based on fallacy. | ||
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On November 14 2015 23:13 Xatalos wrote: Look in the mirror None of your reasons to scumread me have made the slightest amount of sense.It's also pointless for you to say that you "never scumread him" when a lot of your posts are about putting suspicion on him / discrediting him. You can say that all you want since you are a spy...except I'm actually reading threads and pulling shit together and you're coming up with entirely fabricated reasons but whatever. Lol. Not once any suspicion on him being mafia, and discrediting him for this game was BEHAVIOUR BASED NOT ALIGNMENT BASED. "Not read based not I felt he was wrong based." And most people here are smart enough to know his meta but Shockey was unfamiliar. His behaviour destroys towns in a manner that is NAI. IF you want to keep stretching the truth on that one go right ahead. | ||
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On November 14 2015 23:14 sicklucker wrote: thats a good point but i would expect coag to no vote that if hes town again well done Vivax. Now I'm going on my run. | ||
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On November 14 2015 22:51 Xatalos wrote: Btw I did explain why I voted like I did. SL's auto-nomination would have been a surefire way to lose. At least that team had hope. But you haven't read my posts in ages anyway so whatever. No, that was you not answering rayn's question as to Kita/Rels - AND RAYN CALLED YOU OUT ON THAT HIMSELF. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=112#2225 YOU EVADED HIS QUESTION. | ||
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On November 14 2015 22:55 Xatalos wrote: Not really sure why you call kita scum when he has voted against every failing team while you have voted FOR every failing team without even being included in them And on pretty shaky grounds such as voting in SL even though you suspected him to be scum at the time, and Rels whom you had scumread up to that point.You conveniently forget that I re-read Rels' filter to see if I could see town motivation in his filter and I did prior to voting. I also made it VERY clear what votes I was putting in with the team prior to upvoting or downvoting and (IIRC most cases) why. It should be VERY easy to follow and if anyone wanted to stop me or protest my logic they should have. I made a mistake - and I admitted it right away - not fully tinfoiling Kita, but with Rels on the team, it would have been a moot point anyways. The other funny thing is that you and Rels are pushing the same angle, relying on the voting records (and hyperfocusing on them) and pretty much nothing else. That is a red flag, because it is not the only thing that comprises this game. Like I have said before if people feel my votes disqualify me and they don't understand my explanations or my re-evaluations, I will come up with teams without me to achieve the victory for town. | ||
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On November 14 2015 23:25 kitaman27 wrote: Riddle me this, if there were two spies on the second mission where did me and Rels coordinate how to avoid the double sabotage? We chose to pass it, so there had to be some secret communication to avoid essentially loosing the game automatically, yet there was only one sabotage. It's very rare for a scum team to upvote a double spy mission because of this reason. No coordination is needed. If I recall correctly, it was also discussed prior to the game that the spy at/closer to the top of the list would be the one to pull it off. It was hashed out by Artanis and rayn. Posts #67 and #69 of the thread. | ||
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On November 15 2015 00:50 Xatalos wrote: SL is HTS's #2 suspect here after Rels..... Vote justified anyway just because Rels disagrees with the team. Townreading me/rayn. Putting some suspicion on rayn for a bit.. But it doesn't really work out too well, so next is me.... Even though SL was the main suspect of us 3 before, now he's off bounds somehow. Well, here's the main argument. That I decided SL was scum rather than rayn too "quickly". But rayn decided that even faster.... So ?????? It just doesn't make sense. I did at least entertain the possibility of rayn being scum, but I never really thought that was the case, and my filter dive confirmed my stance there. I was pretty sure it would be SL if the mission somehow failed. This is where it really starts going downhill. Read this post and the following posts to see why. Nothing fits this argument more than "absolute bullshit". And the following new arguments are pretty much the same. Alright, to answer these points. 1 First your "vote justified...." doesn't account for the fact I townread you up to that point (first sentence of quoted post, I had reason to townread you anyhow). Additionally, rayn made the same point that scummy people wanted sicklucker out for Rels. So what on that note alone made him more town than myself making the same point? 2 It would be negligent to not question potential scum motives on rayn after the failture. Did I push them? No. Kita answered the questions (or someone did) and if there's no mafia motivation, of course I'd drop them. I wanted discussion and I wasn't going to push rayn unless there was actually evidence of such a mindset. It is a town tell to express some scepticism which is what I did. I said it before (post 1850). It is a known fact for anyone familiar with rayn that rayn does not take well to being scumread or to me doubting him in any way. I did it, it didn't check out, I moved on. rayn suspecting me does not mean he's right, nor does it mean I'm scum. He was wrong on me in Titanic (and got mislynched for it, mafia took advantage of my tunnel on rayn) and he was wrong on me here. 3 rayn townreading you (and stickling to it) is the type of thing he will do, he has his one way of thinking - many players agree on this - and I know he said a few times early on "Xatalos is confirmed town" (erroneously). Anyways, he is the type of player who doesn't change his reads much if he thinks the player is being "logical" enough. At that point in time, he was scumreading both Shockey and myself pretty hard, and did not change his reads on us at any point in the game until he was modkilled. I know the very last thing he said about both of us was that (paraphrasing) "and I keep coming back to how Shockey and HTS are so scummy because of everything they post..." .....but this is because rayn plays the game very different from either of us so he will say things like that. The meta expectations for both of you are different because you play the game differently and this is the same argument I made in defence of sicklucker. Using a different example, Artanis is/was scumreading you for not re-evaluating on me. The biggest difference between you and rayn is that rayn will not re-evaluate if he feels there are more scummy townies. And that is typical town rayn. (And I know I'm not the only one who said this either.) 4 Regarding the last quote I told Rels (because I beleive he queried me on it too) that it was possible I could have misunderstood you regarding the first mission and I spliced the words for a double take. At this point in time I am pushing you harder on Mission #2 (posts 2363/(my 6000th post)/2990). You cast doubt on sicklucker and myself upvoting the team, and took attention off your own scummates. THAT IS MAFIA MOTIVATED. 5 A few other people drew into question your reads - #2361 and 2362. I keep forgetting those posts. Finally, again, if people are so scared of me, I can come up with 4- and 5-player teams without myself on it that suit the town agenda. You (from your recent posts) can not. | ||
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Team of 4: Artanis/Vivax/sicklucker/Shockey (Shockey is switchable for Coag depending on how people feel) Team of 5: Artanis/Vivax/sicklucker/Shockey/Coagulation I strongly feel that rayn was town, but if people have had doubts on him respective of his voting record, I am confident in the other four. I have nothing to hide. | ||
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On November 15 2015 01:53 Xatalos wrote: Hm, so I assume you've dropped the earlier arguments by now then? It's just hard to tell because it's a continuous push where you switch arguments whenever you can, and kind of leave the earlier arguments hanging in there. I think you said you haven't seen my towngame, so I'd say you're unqualified to talk about my towngame in any case. I usually stick to my reads as town, unless there's heavy reason to reconsider. Your vote record and push on me have kept being awful, so... That latter argument "I took attention off my teammates" is just unflipped association. You just assume someone is scum and I'm scum when I'm not scumreading them (at least as much as you are). Not very convincing. The point I tried to make and I did in my earlier post is that you failed to answer any question or take a stance on Kita or Rels prior to the team going up. "It's not the best and it's not the worst" simply means it's easier for you to evade accountability regardless of anyone's alignment. The answer you simply gave to rayn was poor irrespective of their alignments. | ||
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You basically said Kita had more credibility based off an associative read. On November 10 2015 23:39 Xatalos wrote: The NO votes look good for you two, it's just not on the level of a confident townread. Kita for being so vague and non-committal throughout the game, and you because your recent scumgames looked pretty similar to this game too (very active and engaged..). Now that I think about it, though, scum HTS would have had no good reason to put scum Kita into the first team.... So that gives kita a bit more credibility at least. (post 2232) You even said that Kita was vague and noncomittal. Irrespective of your read on me you should have voted this team down. I was negligent with Kita and I openly admitted that. I fucked that one up. Rels when I re-evaluated him, I was wrong in my evaluation. But with (now knowing) two on the team it was moot. Even if I HAD tinfoiled Kita, I would have fucked up on Rels still. In any case, if you had reasonable doubt, you should have proposed an alternative to those two players or searched for one. Not fade out (yes I read from there to page 115 which was end of phase) and pass the team. | ||
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On November 15 2015 02:01 kitaman27 wrote: I was under the impression that the host decided the rules, not some random comment from rayn. Coagulation said the same thing I did. Are you trolling me now Kita? | ||
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I'm going out again. Will be in and out. | ||
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On November 15 2015 05:36 sicklucker wrote: im pretty sure im vivax's strongest townread now and its very logical. Do you live in paris? The answer to that question is yes, we've chatted out of game Aside, overall I feel this is a WIFOM attempt to (perhaps?) eventually get on someone's team and eventually fail a mission. I will explain why in his world, this proposal does not make sense from town side. (All references at bottom of post so you can see context and judge for yourselves.) From town side. Rels was hard scumreading Artanis and in his world one of Artanis or myself has to be mafia. He is proposing a team with both of us on it. He was asking me multiple times (well at least once I know I recall) why I was townreading Artanis. He concluded that one of us has to be scum. Now? He places both of us on the team. Second he hard townreads rayn. Now? He leaves him off. Not as sharp as the first point, but quite curious given prior reads. Furthermore he pushes the line that it's not possible that two scums voted no, and then Artanis and I having both voted yes, he puts us both up. (I don't believe I misunderstood this.) What changed? (of course, when you can answer, I understand obv not right away) Overall, ironically the team he's put up is a clean team, but seeing as town have to get three missions passed to win and scum only need to fail one more, I have a strong sense of WIFOM/disassociation/tinfoil/whatever you want to call it about so another scummer (or him?) can slip through on a later mission (Kita's or someone else slipping up). Follow the read progression folks. References: 1 Scumreading Artanis v myself Rels' filter page 20/thread page 127-128 (posts 2540/2552) Rels' filter page 21/thread pages 129 on and off through 138 (posts 2572, 2638, 2639, 2640, 2654, 2667, 2758) Rels' filter page 22/thread page 139 (posts 2766) - trying to convince Artanis he's scum) 2 Townread of rayn Rels' filter page 22/thread page 139-140 (post 2769/2773/2775/2777/2779/2782/2783) - Artanis' post on familiarity is valid as Rels has played 3 games with rayn (SOTW, Newbie 13, Drams) at least 2 he was abrasive, warned in Drams (which rayn admitted to). 3 Rels pushing the two scums voting no line Rels' filter page 23/thread page 143 (post 2844) - he was pushing that well before that page before but that was the latest he was pushing that idea | ||
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On November 15 2015 06:49 sicklucker wrote: well if rels is mafia (he probably ) then hes not gonna go. well you got me guys! hes gonna try to position himself to get on the 5th mission Are you scared of Artanis/myself because of tinfoil/voting record or something else? If it's voting record, read my explanations right after the voting passed for the mission 2 team plus my last explanation to Xatalos (post 3032/3044) and let me know if you still have a problem with me at least. | ||
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On November 15 2015 07:26 sicklucker wrote: we should all vote no to this and see who votes yes. ill put up pretty much the same team next anyway. more info the better and artanis can still be scum. Dont say you agree if you agree ill vote no I will be very honest, I really feel this team is clean. But if you want me to downvote this team, I can. I definitely trust you and Vivax and that will put the 5th mission in my hands (assuming we all downvote whatever Kita puts up) so I can go either way on this. I can also do one final check on Artanis as well prior to upvoting. | ||
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But if it is trust you need me to resolve and you're tinfoiling me, then I'll downvote it for you. I think that might be the issue here. | ||
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On November 15 2015 07:31 sicklucker wrote: Like i just want more information. please dont prevote like me I just had to because if im the only no vote it will probably pass. If the info gained favors artanis ill probably put him up myself Alright, fair enough. I can accept this. | ||
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rayn (if town) was so tunnelled on me, he wasn't going to believe anything I said and I know he will storm back into the thread to spite me post-game. IDK, just keep reading all the comments....I see that as full tilt rayn (which is NAI) and not mafia rayn, but he pulls this shit on people who don't see things the way he does. I don't think you played Drams and his treatment of rsoultin that game was beyond awful. I also retorted against that comment "she makes up bullshit reasons" and we just go back and forth, I mean if you really think it's mafia rayn shitting up the thread, then.... Team of 4: Artanis/Vivax/sicklucker/Shockey Team of 5: Artanis/Vivax/sicklucker/Shockey/myself If people are paranoid about my voting, then I've tried to give every ample opportunity to explain myself. | ||
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On November 03 2015 15:10 raynpelikoneet wrote: kitaman here is my problem with you atm. You don't actually have a stance on anything until it becomes / when it is "relevant". In hindsight that looks "good" since you are discussing important topics in the game. But if you are scum you only need to include yourself into the team and you can easily call the other two people town and "look good", and when there is an all town team you only have to cast doubt on one player and again -- you can easily call the other two people town. So here is what i see has happened: - HtS nominates herself/rayn/Superbia - you become anti-super, as you yourself put it - HtS wants to swap Superbia to Xatalos - you become "anti-Xatalos", and not only that, you even say "maybe i judged Superbia too harsly early on"...... The problem here is that it seems almost too convenient, the topics you discuss. You never really discuss HtS (which is understandable as she is the leader -- and you want yourself into the team). You never really discuss me, just call me town (which makes sense since you couldn't call me scum anyways if you're scum). So basically, if you are scum here, you take the only possible route you can -- or rather, the route that gives you the best chance of getting scum into the team (if we assume HtS is town here -- and i find it almost impossible you two are scum together). Not only that, you don't actually have any reads, which is kinda funny since you call Xatalos out for that exact reason (when Xatalos actually DOES have reads -- you don't). You have called me town, i assume you think HtS is town, and Superbia and Xatalos are "not trustworthy enough". Isn't it a bit hypocritical to entertain a scenario where Xatalos is not town - or cast doubt on him - for "not giving reads" when you yourself haven't really given any reads? This is exactly what i was talking about and this is basically how i usually find scum in Resistance (players who are good). People who don't talk about the game as whole, and only focus on "important" parts on the game -- the team in question. It's really easy to "look townie" if you only have to "prove" you are town, and two townies are town, rofl. There is also this problem where if all the townies play like this the town will never get a team through. Three townies are not going on the first mission anyways, and what i see here is the characteristics of "i am a better pick than this guy, but i don't really even call him scum, nevertheless this team is not good". So, here is what i want from you; Detailed reads on everyone, thanks. Let's see where you stand for real. On November 05 2015 01:51 raynpelikoneet wrote: I didn't want to say this early on in the game but it seems like the game is not going anywhere right now since it HAS TO be a fact there are too many townies scumreading other townies so i'll say it now. The best way of playing Resistance, at least what i have figured out is to play the first cycle as you were playing mafia. What Rels said is completely untrue, just because if mafia does not look town they cannot bus, everything is situational. The way to play is to give out reads, town and scumreads. While townreads are "more important" here, the fact is that mafia doesn't want an all town team to go on a mission, that should be obvious. Now if scum are bussing, it hinders their changes of getting a mission where there is scum on it to go through, just because they have to downvote missions (unless they themselves are the scum there). Now if mafia busses, and there happens to be a town leader, they might find themselves in a situation where they must accept an all town team, because otherwise they give themselves away. You can't just have three scumreads and when a mission goes up where all the people there are townread by you, you just can't say "i am nay-voting this team, because...". The fact is mafia needs to play reactionary in this game. That leads us to a situation, where people who are hesitant to give out reads are more likely to be mafia -- or if mafia gives out reads early on, they have harder time winning the game and it is more likely for them to fuck up the game (as they can't even communicate outside the thread). And that is exactly why i read you scum early on kitaman. I saw these characteristics in your play. Technically there is nothing "wrong" in what you said during the first 1,5 irl-days, but you were not being pro-active, i found you out to be reactionary, which is a scum trait. Like you said here: + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2015 00:41 kitaman27 wrote: The problem here is that you are making the assumption that I am scum and then using my play to "prove" that assumption. The argument is invalid because you come to your conclusion and then piece together evidence that fits the scenario. Of course I am going to discuss whether or not superbia or Xatalos should be included in the team. Everyone should be discussing them. Discussing SL, Artanis, and Shoccky is more difficult because they have posted less content. I did provide my thoughts on on Shoccky. I still have no idea about SL. Artanis I shared dissatisfaction about his post nomination reaction, but I will need to reread. Convincing HTS that she is a spy as leader doesn't accomplish anything and I felt okay with your inclusion. There are only eight other players in the game. That leaves Rels I guess, which I've been on the fence. I will go into further detail later. Perhaps but I feel that I do have reads, though I probably could have expressed them in a single post or something to make it easier to follow. List posts at this point are kinda meh though, but I'll oblige sometime today. Yes, again, technically you are absolutely correct here. I created a narrative and called you scum for it. Well to be exact i explained to HtS why your play doesn't make you town, but yes, i found out your play to be more likely to come from scum. But in my opinion i have good reasons to think the narrative i was entertaining is the right one. Now let's go onto your reads: + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2015 04:28 kitaman27 wrote: Here are my reads so far. I'm sure they will change as time goes on. Admittedly there is a lot of wishy/washy or null reads. I'm still not completely sure about anyone really. Half the Sky - Leaning town. At the start of the game, I was concerned with the fact that she essentially posted exactly what I typically hear from scum players 6-12 hours into the game when I rarely choose to participate much. Since then, she has stayed pretty active and shows evidence of reading the thread. At certain points there was a pretty easy opportunity to My biggest concern would be that between her, myself, rayn, xatalos, and superbia was that she really did not seem to explain herself very well why she went from one to the other as nominations changed. At the end of the day, there were little suspicions towards anyone in the group of five, yet its pretty unlikely the entire group is town. raynpelikoneet - Leaning town. I'm willing to give him town points right off the bat for saving us from having to play with VE. In general he seems to be pushing forwards discussion and looking at player-player relationships to try to piece things together. The plan that he put forward with the scum nominations may be really poor, but a couple posts suggest that he actually believes in it. I hate the way he talks in absolutes regarding alignments of players that he certainly can't be so sure of. The conclusions come way too quick. However, I know he tends to do that a lot as town from past experience as well. Xatalos - Leaning mafia This is a flat out false statement to justify his town read on Superbia. Superbia was NOT constantly engaged with the thread. He was absent aside from the start of the game, a 1 hour period where he made several posts, and a return post where he promised future reads. How can a player be both engaged and disconnected from the game at the same time. I question the validity of the town read because he isn't aware of Superbia's absence when several other players start to question the drop off. Furthermore, he justifies the scum read on me by stating that I am ignoring discussion topics. That makes Xatalos's mindset look even worse when you compare it to his defense of Superbia. Superbia never even comments about the nomination aside from a 1-liner after the fact that he has never elaborated on. I shared my suspicions on both Superbia and Xatalos during the nomination phase and my satisfaction with both HTS and rayn as nominations. It seems like Xatalos generated his reads a few hours into the game and hasn't re-evaluated based on the events of the thread, which I view as a scum trait. Superbia - Weakly leaning town Superbia + Xatalos doesn't stand out as teammates and I think Xat looks worse between the two. That's probably the biggest reason that I have him slightly townier than NULL. If I re-evaluated my read on Xata, I'd probably need to do the same here. This post felt genuine. He had no input regarding nominations. I won't necessarily interpret this as spy motivated since he has essentially been absent from the thread, rather than lurking. I felt this post was exaggerated. He suggests that Xat is pushing a mafia agenda with the nightmare for scum post in order to catch town off guard. I simply don't think a mafia Xat is looking that far ahead. If anything, I'd say reason 1 makes more sense. Trying to interpret what a town Xat would enter the game as is a complete guessing game so I felt he was really stretching his read here. sicklucker - Null lol there is always at least one of these guys I'm really bad at reading low effort players. Usually it comes down to looking at their past games and seeing if the low effort trend occurs as only a single alignment (I haven't done this yet, but it is on my to-do list). We aren't really in a position to exclude him for the rest of the game so hopefully we get a few more reads. I guess the posts on Xata is a start. Artanis[Xp] - Going to hold off until we see a few more posts from him. I'm not very sure where his head is at. At some point someone mentioned that had a very strong read on him. If you could elaborate, that might be helpful. ShoCkeyy - I'm struggling between low thread presence mafia and "lynch bait" town. He doesn't seem comfortable giving out statements which he isn't confident about. This could either mean that truly isn't sure and wants more time until it is clear or that he doesn't want to make a statement that could backfire later on in the game. I didn't like the meta read he made on rayn by taking only the experience from the game he has played. There were a few other statements that seemed like they came from town. "I will rject this combination" etc. I took a look through some of his past games. There were a few similarities that popped up. All of these quotes come from games where he is mafia compared against posts from this game. I know this method of scum hunting can be a bit dangerous because you're cherry picking posts without context, but there were enough similarities between his play that it warrants concern. From his town games, I didn't really have success picking up many trends aside from generally low post counts, though he was willing to call players scum without having "proof" like he suggests in his most recent post. I'd say Shockeyy would be in my exclude list for the time being. Rels - Weak town He is changing his mind a lot, which suggests read progression. A lot of the posts that he is making wouldn't necessarily further his position to get included in a mission, which gives him town points. Getting into a fight with rayn early on in the game and digging up stuff on HTS when a lot of people town read her could create problems for him if he wanted to be trusted by the more vocal players. He brings a fair amount of new topics to the thread and seems to believe in most of the stuff he is posting. Something of interest is that our reads don't match up very well. Usually when town hunting you look for people that are thinking similar things. I need to decide whether one of us are off by a significant amount or if he is pushing a mafia agenda by swaying the thread in a certain direction. sicklucker and Artanis - i disagree on the null read. I have explained why. Superbia - i agree, almost definitely. I disagree with the "over-explaining" stuff. I would still say i am weakly leaning town on him, but later on his presence has been underwhelming, and people are right in saying he hasn't given opinions on much. ShoCkeyy - You have expanded on this and my thoughts on what you said match exactly. My problem is i don't usually care to explain stuff that is really obvious, and it is really obvious he is scum and why he is scum, has been for a long time. HtS/Xatalos/Rels - here is where this gets tricky. I kinda understand the read on HtS. What gives me pause on HtS is the fact that he last-second swapped Xatalos to you. Now i don't think you are both mafia with HtS. The problem is why does he swap? I don't find her reasoning good. She basically did that because you called Xatalos mafia, and she townread you for it. As i said -- if you are town here, and Xatalos is town, there is a perfectly good scum motivation to switch Xatalos <-> you, just because you are scumread by more people than Xatalos is (or at least was, at that time). I understand this doesn't make her scum, but i can't understand why she does the swap, especially as she STILL thinks Xatalos is town (the team on her/me/xatalos was definitely more likely to get yay-voted than her/me/you). I mean like; if she is scum, and picks you over Xatalos, then i don't know which one of you is scum -- hell it's probably (at least at that point) more likely i am gonna call you scum over her (which never happens if the mission gets sabotaged with her/me/xatalos). Do you see my point? I also don't like her downgrading Xatalos even below Superbia, just because "she liked Superbia's latest post"..... Those are the things that bother me on HtS atm, otherwise i think her posting is fine. I am really conflicted with your reads on Rels and Xatalos. The first thing that raises my eyebrows is the fact that you read other people based on motivation, but there is zero analysis of motivation regarding Xatalos. The read on Xatalos is actually based on something you think is scummy in what he has said. The fact is, if you read Rels' posts in this light, there is literally way way way more things that are just plain out fucking scummy. Why do you jsut ignore them when you read Rels, and give a read like "he is engaged and changes his opinion", when Xatalos actually does the same thing. It's like... - from Xatalos you pick something that could be scummy, and ignore everything else (his play as whole) - from Rels you ignore the things that could be scummy, and say he is town for his play on whole It makes very little sense to me. Especially when i think your case on Xatalos is really weak. The fact is Xatalos does not read the thread entirely properly as town. As mafia he is way more "clean" and actually thinks more than he posts. As town it is the other way around. You claim that he is scum for certain things he said about Superbia and you. The thing is, there is no reason for Xatalos to say what he said about Superbia if he is mafia (especially if Superbia is town). Why does he give out a townread on him based on "shit reasons" when he has scumread Superbia before? It doesn't make any sense, especially if the reasoning is -- as you claim -- made up, and he doesn't genuinely think so. I also think the read on you at the time was not scummy at all, because i felt the exact same way about you back then. On the other hand there is Rels. I would like to ask you this: - Why do you think his read (reasoning/changes on it) on me throughout the game is not scummy? - Why do you think his townread on ShoCkeyy was not scummy? It was literally based on the worst, and the most scummy post in this thread. - Why is it impossible that he changes his read on HtS when he does (or rather -- more likely to come from town)? If HtS is town (as you assume) and i am town (as you assume) and i think you assume you are town anyways --> HtS has put on a team that is all town, what choise does he have? He has to call someone scum. I don't find his reasoning to be even good. - Why do you read Rels town for his "level of engagement". Rels is a player whose engagement level is pretty close to what it is as town as mafia. You could compare that to people like HF/bugs/you/DP/marv/me (when the last two plays scum properly). I can also tell you that Xatalos' level of engagement isn't the same as either alignment... I literally can't see why you townread Rels. The next thing i want to talk about is this: I don't like this post, and the fact that you are not looking behind the words at all. Let's break this into pieces: My reasoning for doing this is the following: 1) town - i believe that you three are scum (in which case it makes this the best play if all of you three agree - it just does, as the town auto-wins after regardless of what team we choose next )2) town - i believe there is a chance that you all three are scum, and i know you will never agree to this as either alignment 3) mafia - idk... you can insert your reasoning here because you seem to think there could be a reason, i can't give one, since i am not mafia and i would never do that when i am ALREADY on the team and (heavily) townread by 7 other players.... Now the point of all this was a couple of things: - Rels; i didn't learn anything, although he called my logic "twisted", and i still don't know why. maybe he explains it someday, as there is nothing twisted in my logic. (i am pretty sure Xatalos & Artanis see what i was after here) - ShoCkeyy; i don't really care since he is scum anyways, but he thinks i am scum (regardless of what he tries to say -- he does), so why does he accept a team proposed by scum? Like.. if i was scum i would put a teammate there, obviously, i am not stupid. - regarding you, i wanted to push your reads out, because i was annoyed of you not giving any concrete reads. I know you would never agree to this regardless of who is mafia and regardless of your alignment. The thing that confuses me is that you kinda called me scummy for it, when there is literally no scum motivation for me to do that (i actually did a similar "anti-town" thing in Nuclear Winter mafia (which never had any anti-town motivation that anyone could explain) -- and caught Ace pants down on N1 ).Anyways, my problem right now is the following. Your read on Xatalos (and his (and my) read on you) is the biggest issue here, since other people can't agree to anything. The fact is that there is basically no other team than me/you/Xatalos that will EVER go to the first mission based on people's reads and how they differ from other people's reads. I am really really sure Xatalos is town. So it basically leaves me with; I have to prove to other people you are scum (for them to agree onto some fucking team ever), or if you are town i have to prove you that Xatalos is town -- and vice versa (otherwise no team will go until ShoCkeyy posts a team and it will 100% fail). Like... you have to admit there is a chance you are wrong on Xatalos. I don't find your case good. I admit i COULD be wrong on Xatalos, i am just really fucking sure of my read, more sure than anything else in this game. I also admit i am not sure if you are mafia or town, because historically i am not that good in reading you and i kinda end up thinking you are scum in any game we are in. That's why i am basically trying to talk to you (and Xatalos -- at least later on). I think the key of your two alignments is the key to solving this game. So if you could answer my concerns it would be nice. Posts 648 and 1018, similar sentiment for the former on what you said re: Kita. Vivax, do you think those posts are mafia motivated as well? | ||
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On November 15 2015 23:07 Vivax wrote: Maybe I'm just being stupidly paranoid again, cause this argument is still golden imo: Except that Fidei said not all votes were sent in, so something might be fishy about this. Tbh I think it would be fair to know who defaulted to "no", the voting outcome should be public, but it might be game breaking, idk. As for this, tbf I think most moderators most games make it clear that if votes don't go to all moderators, and the "wrong" moderator tabulates the votes....too bad, but that gets around any risk of breaking the game. | ||
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On November 15 2015 23:01 Vivax wrote: If you're town trust me and don't yay-vote anything until it's clear wtf spies have been doing. Your scumteam is what I was at yesterday before rereading anything but it's too easy. And Ockhams razor isn't how you play mafia. Not everything that rages and gets mad at stupid things is a town rayn. He uses being mad as an excuse when he plays mafia. Like I told SL, though yesterday, fair enough. But I am feeling much similar to Artanis right now. | ||
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On November 16 2015 00:36 Vivax wrote: And I think rayn bussed the hell out of you. It just made no sense for him to get mad about you calling his play in some game shit. I think it was an act, otherwise if he gets mad he does it for a reason and if you respond to him in a calm demeanor he can tone it down and say something normally. He didn't do that with you. He acted like he hated you all this game and yet you both always voted the same on the fail teams. I can't speak for rayn, I just know I was pretty clear in why I voted the way I did, and that two scum voting no is very possible, and again, that voting no on the failed teams does not clear people. Multiple people have said that now. And honestly rayn doesn't take any sort of criticism well, I went back and forth as to how I called his game NAI yet toxic and he kept interpreting that as trying to discredit/antagonise/whatever words he used. I know he slips with English sometimes so I'm not going to put that past him either. | ||
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But let's just see how these votes pan out and take it from there. | ||
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On November 16 2015 00:50 Rels wrote: K HTS just slipped right there. I purposefully did the same thing Arta did when he picked rayn's team to gather reactions. The normal reaction of someone scumreading me should be: I'm scum because the team goes against my reads and I dedouaned myself from nominating a team. People thinking that should be thinking Arta is scum, or at least suspicious 'cause (1) he did the exact same thing and (2) I'm putting him in my team. Here is what HTS did: Rels is scum 'cause he nominated a WIFOM team that was against his read. But the team is clean, so Arta, who did the same thing, is town. Second thing, kita has tried to get HTS talking about things about Arta and I. HTS didn't answer in details to these unless I missed it. But now that she sees the opportunity to both: - explain how I am even scummier than before - push people to vote YES she's putting the effort to do it. Third thing, town is one failure away from losing, and she's OK voting YES to a team nominated by her scumread. TLDR 1. Arta does something, he's town; Rels does the same thing, Rels is scum and Arta is still town 2. She's putting the effort to convince even more people I'm scum. 3. She's OK voting YES to a team nominated by her scumread. Now this doesn't mean Arta is scum by itself; but since HTS is OK putting herself out of teams only if Arta is instead, there is a relationship. As to why Arta is scum, see kita's big post about him. You're cherry picking a LOT of stuff here. Artanis had a response to what Kita said and why Kita was guilty of framing that in a mafia lens and not seeing the townie half of that. I am saying that what you are doing if taken seriously makes no sense for a town standpoint. As mafia you have every incentive to try and fool people when you're up 2-0 so you can find a way to slip one of yourselves in a team. Independent of whatever you pick, there's nothing wrong with looking at the people independently and the way they have played the game so far and reach a different conclusion on what you are trying to do with that information. Additionally, you fail to consider the conversation that I had with sicklucker before the team was formalised. Such selective reasoning, it's pathetic. VERY mafia motivated here. | ||
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On November 16 2015 00:57 Rels wrote: And now Arta is pushing people to vote YES with overexplanation. This is making soooo much sense. Not overexplanation, but re-emphasis, this is just a summary of all of his reads of the game to another player who has replaced in and may not have grasped everything he's absorbed in a shorter amount of time. This is absolutely pathetic from you, how you are re-framing this from an exclusively mafia lens. If you are going to call this mafia, explain why the reads themselves (or his bases) are mafia. | ||
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On November 16 2015 00:56 Vivax wrote: But why are you so forgiving towards him? Why does he have to be 100 % town all the time? If he used the arguments on you that he used on me I'd be scumreading him 100 %. I think he just thought you and Shockey looked awful and wanted to send you where the sun doesn't shine and get nomd on every team himself. That's scenario 1. Scenario 2 is that he's mafia with Artanis. That would have worked up until the point where his reads stopped making sense and he went for suicide by mod. Now tell me again if rayn isn't capable of replicating what he did in his last town game you cohosted if he were mafia, do you think he has the short term memory of an ant? I rage ergo sum ? Here's the thing Vivax, I'm not just looking at his anger. I'm looking at his overall nitpickiness this game. I'm looking at every way he's been framing arguments and looking at different people, not just myself. There was one sentence where he's obviusly going to be wrongfully townreading people if he scumreads people - "but I keep coming back to everything Shockey and HTS are posting and it's so scummy" (paraphrasing). Additionally, he never took into account rightly or wrongly my RL schedule the first half of this game (before Thursday when I was still at home) but this isn't outside the boundaries of town rayn as was stated. When he tunnelled the shit out of Scott in Drams for example, Scott had replaced in for a player (J Roc) who was extremely scummy when he left, and IN SPITE OF SCOTT CLAIMING TRACKER and posting his last will especially prior to getting lynched, he never wavered on that tunnel and the tracker got lynched even though Scott was way more towny than his precedessor. To that, rayn responded that once he saw that J Roc was scummy, he felt there was no further discussion and wanted to lynch the replacement and moved on, He tunnelled the shit out of LS in SOTW if I recall correctly. He has unintentinally misinterpreted things as town, so I cannot exclude that possibility here. Now, if you want to talk about the anger alone, the last several games now he's been going crazy and in Drams (I warned him in Drams, which he publicly disclosed), he was directly/indirectly responsible for making people quit TL. Now I really did not want to bring that topic up whilst in the thread because I honestly thought it was inappropriate and I thought it would caused even larger problems than it did, but now that he is gone and that you are asking me this, I will say part of the reason I responded to him the way I did was because I saw a larger issue with his behaviour (see the part where I said "I will save this conversation for post-game") and he just continued to get angry at me. This is something I've seen as destructive to town (and by extension to the community) regardless of his alignment, and as such, I have tried to evaluate him away from his emotions. | ||
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On November 16 2015 01:02 Vivax wrote: Challenge of the day: HTS vs Rels. I think early game holds answers to this quest. Like I said before, disassociation. If you don't believe Artanis' explanation or my reasoning for voting the team in, you'll see endgame he and Kita made quite the play, all they needed was one person up there, and IIRC both rayn (in your world) and Xata had voted themselves in. | ||
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Anyways Rels, please, it's a damn summary, not "vague" (3115), you continue to frame that to your liking. | ||
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What I found hilarious is that AS YOU NOMINATED YOUR TEAM you quoted a team that I had previously selected (team of 4 and team of 5) and then you swapped my name in for sicklucker (for whatever reason) and now you are turning that argument around and trying to say I'm mafia for it. How do you say I'm being unreasonable saying I would upvote a team with 3 people I would create the team from PLUS MYSELF?!??!?!? (3051) I separated that from your probable intention with your nomination. And that's why I made the comment I did. | ||
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On November 16 2015 01:29 Rels wrote: It is unreasonnable 'cause you should have been "wait Rels is 100% scum, maybe he's pushing for victory" which is what SL did. But you're right, it was targeted specifically at you, 'cause the kita's post saying "now whatever I say doesn't matter since I'm scum" stuck in my head. You're playing a game of absolutes, which is something mafia does when chosing their fake reads. As scum, you have the ability to win the game now or wait out 1-2 cycles (not that long, each cycle is 24h not 48h) and you have that luxury when you are up 2-0. There is no reason I should discount either potential strategy. When I am that confident in my reads, I have to question what you are doing with the information you are presenting. My reads are based on all actions over the course of the game, and I'm not the one doing the cherry picking. Nearly everyone has had more or less the same 1-2 scumreads and obviously throwing any of the suspected on now isn't going to get you anywhere. Now you get to see if you can try to fool anyone by putting up what a few of us perceive as a clean team. There is a motive for that. There is nothing mafia indicative about discussing that. As for Kita, his saying that is NAI. *yawn* | ||
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I have to afk now anyhow but that is something I can continue if it clarifies things for people. | ||
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That and the connection between me and rayn is beyond absurd based on my recent and out-of-current-game experience with him. Like I said before, sicklucker, I express the above team is clean for reasons that have nothing to do with Rels nominating the team, but you mentioned it was on you to figure out Artanis. Thing is, from 3110 Artanis has figured you out (and hilariously Rels is trying to frame that from a mafia perspective) the question is now do you trust him over Rels? That was pretty much your intention for saying what you said before. Even Rels thinks it's mafia motivated for me to discuss it as a WIFOM attempt when it's clearly not so and he's scumreading Artanis. | ||
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Also Rels, the whole "not one ounce of tinfoil that SL is scum" makes zero sense. Funny you say that as it was pointed out that prior to mission 1 if the team were to fail, my first look would be AT sicklucker. When the team actually DID fail, I re-evaluated everyone. What is the mafia motivation to look at rayn and question him when I did after mission 1? I mean, Xatalos made SUCH a big deal on that one. At points in the game, I was the only one townreading sicklucker and I was trying to get people to understand his mindset why he might not be scum. A lot of the incoherence he's displayed is of both alignments. Keep stretching the truth, I can only hope people will see right through you. | ||
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The way Rels is going on about is borderline pathetic. Somewhere Holyflare is laughing on his retirement chair. | ||
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On November 16 2015 04:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Sure feels scummy in the past few pages over here. Sicklucker, just vote yes. Scum is Rels/Kita/Xata and maaaybe it was Rayn but probably not. None of those are on the mission here. I am honestly voting yes now because I'm at the point I really don't care anymore. They aren't idiots, all the scummers will vote it down. Rels is trying to work off his alternative theory. | ||
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I'm looking at a 12h day today and tomorrow, should ease up later this week. Not much to add beyond this regardless. | ||
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On November 17 2015 02:03 sicklucker wrote: ##nominate: Sicklucker shockeyy half the sky vivax I expect yes votes from us four and artanis based on how you have voted and your in game reads. This should be a guaranteed pass Will upvote the above. No gimmicks. | ||
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On November 17 2015 07:39 sicklucker wrote: Do i have the votes for a sl/shockey/coag/vivax? You would have mine. No problem. | ||
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Again, nothing really to add, unless I see the voting results. I expect Kita/Rels/Xata will downvote, curious on the rest though. | ||
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Kita was town? really? At least I was 2 out of 3.... | ||
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Should I go into hiding after work tonight? >_< | ||
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yeah Lex....fuck you too <3 <3 | ||
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I bought into the wifom on Kita....oh god, kill me please. | ||
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Yeah I dunno what Coag was doing. | ||
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Friggin' protoss.... | ||
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Ugh, I should have seen this coming. | ||
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On November 18 2015 08:15 sicklucker wrote: good news at least. Every ryan read was wrong. Literraly all of them I don't feel so bad. I fucked Kita but it could have been worse on my end. Sorry Kita :/ Cheers James and Tictock for hosting. I'll return for the next assuming I'm not too busy. | ||
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Wasn't making up anything about the post-game address, but obviously I will be saving that for the ban list at this rate but on topic, I really want to know why you thought that was fake on his part. | ||
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Normally I construct cases, but that becomes impossible when you are working 12-15 hours a day (which honestly, I know I have other issues outside this game which a few of you are already aware of), and so now I really feel bad I couldn't get things down in one post that I would have otherwise done for Kita. There were some posts that I got an extremely dry tone from him (which I never experience from Kita in any of his town games) so I couldn't tell if it was him being mafia or just his frustration at the state of the game. That said, I think I know where I made mistakes and what I need to do next time I am very pressed for time (before the game started going on autopilot, once it started grinding out at the end, it was like meh). I think had I been able to communicate a little more effectively with Kita and Vivax it might have turned out a little better, IDK. As for game's balance, I think this is where the Merlin, etc aspect comes in for RL resistance, but at the same time, I know that for whatever reason it doesn't work out that well on the forums. marvellosity played Merlin apparently and he said it was VERY boring. IDK. | ||
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On November 18 2015 08:25 kitaman27 wrote: I think both the balance and the player experience would be improved by cutting the length of the game by a third. I'm not really sure the best way to do so, but the mafia team doesn't need to keep up the act for as long and we don't have to put up with so many dead cycles towards the end of the game. Ideally, town should probably fail the first 3-4 nominations each cycle for info, but when that adds an extra 48 hours each time it really becomes a drag. This so much. It's hard to say for the moderators though. | ||
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