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On November 02 2015 23:21 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 23:12 Half the Sky wrote:On November 02 2015 23:01 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 22:56 Half the Sky wrote:On November 02 2015 18:19 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 18:11 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 02 2015 18:09 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 18:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 02 2015 18:02 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 17:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I take it that you don't have any townreads Rels? No. That's interesting since there are five people who have posted something that can actually be at least considered as content. If you exclude yourself from the pool, that leaves you four people. Now for you, it is impossible that those four people are al scum -- there has to be at least one townie in them. So what, do you think we are all scum or what? No. That is a dumb question. I'm pretty sure you were the one refusing the answer dumb questions like "are you mafia ?", maybe in the newbie game with noobking. Let me check that. What i am trying to say that i find it suspicious you are not trying to make reads yet, and i think that is not normal for you. Especially when this is not a situation where making reads does not help anything (unlike for example if in a mafia game you think everyone who has posted so far are town). If i compared this to a normal mafia this would be a situation where you know at least one of the people who have posted is mafia for sure but you are refusing to figure it out further. OK bro. I don't have townreads on anyone that posted. I don't have scumreads on them either. I have suspicions on Superbia, kita and you. This post seems somewhat contradictory (not the only post I'll comment on from Rels). Based on the sentences bolded you should in theory be scumleaning the three you listed. I'm also not clear on why you are scumreading rayn or what is jumping out at yoru scumread on rayn. I understand your argument for your initial exchange on Superbia/Xatalos is that Superbia's read on Xatalos was manufactured and I'm seeing your followup on page 16, but where was the suspicion on rayn coming from page 11? I thought this question was scummy: On November 02 2015 18:09 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 18:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 02 2015 18:02 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 17:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I take it that you don't have any townreads Rels? No. That's interesting since there are five people who have posted something that can actually be at least considered as content. If you exclude yourself from the pool, that leaves you four people. Now for you, it is impossible that those four people are al scum -- there has to be at least one townie in them. So what, do you think we are all scum or what? No. That is a dumb question. I'm pretty sure you were the one refusing the answer dumb questions like "are you mafia ?", maybe in the newbie game with noobking. Let me check that. On November 02 2015 22:56 Half the Sky wrote:
Also Rels, my post on shockey was because of him saying he's catching up, he hadn't posted jack all before that. It indicates that you read the thread, or at least the last few posts starting page 16, when you said you were stuck on page 12. Not sure it's alignement indicative but I have no idea why you would lie about that. I don't see how that made rayn scummy. He's coming to conclusions with his arguments and he's trying to see if you are coming to conclusions on people's alignments which is generally a town trait. And if you are struggling, why, townies can struggle with getting reads too (reference rsoultin in Drams) so naturally he's nitpicking to see your rationale. Mm maybe I didn't explain why I thought it was scummy. Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 18:09 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 18:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 02 2015 18:02 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 17:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I take it that you don't have any townreads Rels? No. That's interesting since there are five people who have posted something that can actually be at least considered as content. If you exclude yourself from the pool, that leaves you four people. Now for you, it is impossible that those four people are al scum -- there has to be at least one townie in them. So what, do you think we are all scum or what? No. That is a dumb question. I'm pretty sure you were the one refusing the answer dumb questions like "are you mafia ?", maybe in the newbie game with noobking. Let me check that. Oh I actually did! The scummy isn't nitpicking specific points, which is something town!rayn always do; the problem was asking a dumb question, when I remembered him getting angry at the fact he was being ask a dumb question, so I don't know why he would do this himself. Now rayn quoted the angry post, and it was not really the same context.
Admittedly I'm finding this tenuous but after reading a few times I think I am understanding your viewpoint, you are saying that rayn isn't acting consistently between games (correct?). I don't agree this makes him scum, but I can at least see this. My only thing here - "are you mafia?" he and others have done this (example: Koshi - "how mafia are you?") out of spite/emotion, and I'm not sure such types of questions can really be taken seriously nor most people who ask them don't really expect, those questions are out of emotion imo - how can people really answer?
For example when Koshi does this he accompanies that question with something else to substantiate that emotion (reference: Void), rayn does the same thing except he splits his posts up (reference SOTW I believe).
The reason I disagreed with the question being dumb because I saw the purposes and how he reached his conclusions from the questions asked.
Am I making sense here?
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RL update - Poor visibility at Heathrow/Gatwick. I thought we could eek by here and things would clear up, but in reality I'm not going home for awhile.
(for those not in Europe, London is getting nailed by fog and there's shittonnes of delays/cancellations.)
fffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkk
At least I'll be playing this game a bit longer here...that said I'm going to try and solidify my submission in the event I cut closer to the deadline. Hopefully not.
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On November 02 2015 23:29 Xatalos wrote:
What's your read on me btw, HTS? Would be nice to hear your reads on every player before the team suggestion really.
Right now? nullish - I want to look a little more closely at any conclusions you make on people and how you get there before I'm a little more comfortable. At least I'll know I'll be getting to that sooner.
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On November 02 2015 23:34 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 23:29 Xatalos wrote:
What's your read on me btw, HTS? Would be nice to hear your reads on every player before the team suggestion really. Right now? nullish - I want to look a little more closely at any conclusions you make on people and how you get there before I'm a little more comfortable. At least I'll know I'll be getting to that sooner.
Actually l'll take this a bit further:
Town/Resistance:
rayn
Sueprbia (will review the TMI argument)
Town lean:
none at this point
Null:
Xata (will review)
Shockey
SL
Artanis
Scumlean:
Kita
Rels (will review TMI argument)
That's where I am now.
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Also Xatalos, especially now with the flight/visibility situation at home, it's a bit more imperative I have the submissions in earlier (at least based on yesterday's info) but I will be very clear on how likely my stuff is to change when I submit.
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On November 02 2015 23:22 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 15:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:
kitaman: Do you argee or disgree with the statement that if i am town the best play would be to reject the first three teams regardless of the first three player's alignments? If everyone did that, then we would never be able to pass a mission so you can't publicly push that policy. Privately, I'd probably consider it in your position if there were legitimate reasons to distrust the first three, though not regardless of their alignments.
Ah, is that a Kita I spot? I imagine still early for you stateside, but surely nothing more of substance aside from game mechanics? >_<
I know you don't/can't play often, but I still have a decent memory of what to expect from a town Kita...and right now I'm not seeing a town Kita.
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Xatalos - because I haven't looked into you that closely. Aside from yourself, where else do you disagree, or do you? At least you agree on the other two to take.
And yes there are still too many nulls. Artanis has legit reasons (the ones he's cited are reasons he's discussed with me out of game and prior to this game starting) and I know sicklucker sleeps during the day and works at night. So I don't know if that will resolve at least before I fly home before deadline, or if that even happens.
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On November 02 2015 23:43 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 23:31 Xatalos wrote:On November 02 2015 23:23 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 02 2015 23:18 Xatalos wrote:On November 02 2015 23:15 ShoCkeyy wrote:I haven't finished reading the thread, but since I did play with rayn last game where he was mafia and this really brings up his current meta: On November 02 2015 19:05 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Okay i gotta get off for some time. I am starting to get angry at this. He seriously starts to get "angry" when things do not go his way. On November 02 2015 19:15 Rels wrote:
rayn leaving the thread as soon as he's being pushed is scum indicative. Please don't include him in a team. This is also my best suggestion as well. Which game are you referring to? I think he can get plenty angry as town too lol He can get angry as town too, haven't never seen him play as town. I'm just basing it off my previous game with him, which is why I rather not have him on the first mission. Here is the page where he gets angry because he messed up and/or things just didn't go his way. (Super mini mafia, you can read through it fairly quickly). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497064-star-fox-64-mini-mafia?page=5 Well, he did get pretty angry as town in the Vanilla game... The one that just ended. Tbh I think it's not alignment-indicative for him. How much can I trust you with that piece of information? The one thing I'm getting from you right now is that you're friends with rayn, as to where I see rayn being on the other side of the fence due to my previous encounters with him.
I think your meta read on rayn is wrong, but at least I understand why it's wrong. And when you say you are "friends" with rayn, can you clarify that? Are you suggesting he's buddying rayn (this is scum indicative) - because I cannot tell from context. Or are you suggesting those two are legitimately townreading each other?
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On November 02 2015 23:55 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 23:53 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 02 2015 23:52 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 02 2015 23:46 kitaman27 wrote:On November 02 2015 18:21 raynpelikoneet wrote:
kitaman because he is talking about setup which is a big no-no in this game unless you are scum and want to give advice to your teammates, like "this is something i would not recommend to do". Well the goal was indeed to give advice for my teammates. You don't need to automatically conclude that the advice was spy motivated. 36% success to 18% success is a significant drop off. The problem is that is actually bad advice. How is that bad advice?... There are certain situations where not picking yourself as town is the best move you can possibly make.
I can agree with this.
That said as for my picking the team, my RL situation aside, I have yet to see any objections from anyone to myself being on the team.
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Also I'm still null on Shockey, I think what he is discussing whilst reasonable on rayn could be coming from either alignment.
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Now unless some other distraction comes up, moving to Xatalos.
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On November 03 2015 00:01 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Did anyone actually look at the game and why i got mad there?
This game? (or another?) Yeh this game, I know why, and even drew out that explanation in quering Rels.
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On November 03 2015 00:05 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 23:54 Half the Sky wrote:
Xatalos - because I haven't looked into you that closely. Aside from yourself, where else do you disagree, or do you? At least you agree on the other two to take.
And yes there are still too many nulls. Artanis has legit reasons (the ones he's cited are reasons he's discussed with me out of game and prior to this game starting) and I know sicklucker sleeps during the day and works at night. So I don't know if that will resolve at least before I fly home before deadline, or if that even happens. Well, continue reading  Hm.. I'd maybe put Rels into the null pile. I think his explanations somewhat made sense, and he's actively doing stuff (even if he can be active as scum, it's still easier to be a little less active than that as scum). Otherwise it seemed generally okay. I don't think you ordered the reads within the groups?
No not really but if I had to Kita was more scummy than Rels, and rayn is more town if I am splitting hairs than Superbia. Nulls - SL/Artanis are policy lynch equivalent. At least Shockey is now trying to do something.
And rayn, quick response to your question as I read Xata's filter - my comments there were in reference to that Shockey is (meta) reading you off one game. The read isn't malicious (from what I can tell) but I pointed out that his tone is NAI and he assumed it to be so. It's wrong, I pointed out why it's wrong, but as we are discussing it, there is no malicious (mafia) intent. Still I feel I need more to see him more clear as town because that is the only substance I see from him now. Does that make sense?
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On November 02 2015 20:55 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 20:52 Superbia wrote:On November 02 2015 20:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Superbia FYI Xatalos has not played forum Resistance. ...That makes me slightly more suspicious rofl. But whatever, I have concluded that you are likely town, and that Xat may be town too. Partially due to me trusting your read a little, and partially because of how he's mentally (i.e. logically) handling my push. Actually Xat was town in the vanilla mafia game too right? The one in which he died n3 or whatever (I've half-followed it)? And where they lynched scum on d3 only? If so that gives him some town-points this game so far. Yeah I was town and got shot eventually. Why does that make me townie?
On November 02 2015 20:59 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 20:56 Superbia wrote:On November 02 2015 20:55 Xatalos wrote:On November 02 2015 20:52 Superbia wrote:On November 02 2015 20:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Superbia FYI Xatalos has not played forum Resistance. ...That makes me slightly more suspicious rofl. But whatever, I have concluded that you are likely town, and that Xat may be town too. Partially due to me trusting your read a little, and partially because of how he's mentally (i.e. logically) handling my push. Actually Xat was town in the vanilla mafia game too right? The one in which he died n3 or whatever (I've half-followed it)? And where they lynched scum on d3 only? If so that gives him some town-points this game so far. Yeah I was town and got shot eventually. Why does that make me townie? Your posting style and activity level seems similar to that game. Mind you that I've read/skimmed maybe 7-8 pages, so I'm not confident enough to give you a lot of townie-points. Okay, that makes sense.
Alright, these questions are quite town. I know Rels argued TMI from Superbia. So at least I know to flag that argument reviewing Rels later...
The only question I'd pose to Superbia is asking him how he knows Xata isn't breaking meta but maybe he hasn't reached that point yet.
I'm not going to meta read Xata, largely because I'd be biased on that - the only games I've ever had with Xata (Carol and Assassination, both large normal) he's been scum and I've been town. I've never played with town Xatalos.
So far Xata is looking town...
Continuing...
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On November 03 2015 00:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 00:14 Half the Sky wrote:On November 03 2015 00:05 Xatalos wrote:On November 02 2015 23:54 Half the Sky wrote:
Xatalos - because I haven't looked into you that closely. Aside from yourself, where else do you disagree, or do you? At least you agree on the other two to take.
And yes there are still too many nulls. Artanis has legit reasons (the ones he's cited are reasons he's discussed with me out of game and prior to this game starting) and I know sicklucker sleeps during the day and works at night. So I don't know if that will resolve at least before I fly home before deadline, or if that even happens. Well, continue reading Hm.. I'd maybe put Rels into the null pile. I think his explanations somewhat made sense, and he's actively doing stuff (even if he can be active as scum, it's still easier to be a little less active than that as scum). Otherwise it seemed generally okay. I don't think you ordered the reads within the groups? No not really but if I had to Kita was more scummy than Rels, and rayn is more town if I am splitting hairs than Superbia. Nulls - SL/Artanis are policy lynch equivalent. At least Shockey is now trying to do something. And rayn, quick response to your question as I read Xata's filter - my comments there were in reference to that Shockey is (meta) reading you off one game. The read isn't malicious (from what I can tell) but I pointed out that his tone is NAI and he assumed it to be so. It's wrong, I pointed out why it's wrong, but as we are discussing it, there is no malicious (mafia) intent. Still I feel I need more to see him more clear as town because that is the only substance I see from him now. Does that make sense? Not really, no. Because the read is purely based on bullshit and that is the only thing he has said, in a game where you are supposed to find townies over scum.
So based on this (bolded), we both agree the read is flawed. He used meta to scumread you.
We both agree it's the only thing Shockey has said of substance.
I put out my reasons why Shockey's read is wrong.
However, based on your use of the word "bullshit" I am interpreting this as you seeing his read on you as malicious/mafia intent. I did not think it was. So what are you seeing that I am not?
(Regardless I wouldn't be putting Shockey on my team as of now anyhow.)
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On November 03 2015 00:21 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 20:41 Superbia wrote:
Xat&rest- Xat's initial post set me off. Saying something like "this is a nightmare for scum" has two results (from writer POV):
1. It distances you from "scum".
2. It downplays scum.
1. Is NAI. 2 is super weird from a town perspective, and leans me more towards mafia. I feel like if you were town and believed this you would've focused on the strength of town, rather than the weakness of mafia, and as a result, would've said something along the lines of "mafia gonna get #rekt #noqt" (or something less trolly). Regardless I feel like commenting on how "weak" mafia is is mafia indicative as it sets up for a lax game.
Now I already had a very real suspicion that you knew that this set up is not a "nightmare" for scum, as you have played resistance(/avalon) before (noted by you correctly associating my merlin comment with avalon). So that double begs the question why you felt the need to point out that mafia was "weak".
I also understand that there is no resolving this situation regardless of your alignment. We can't talk this shit out- since it my suspicion and your possibly-innocent post. I am going, however, going to be suspicious of you. Unfairly? Maybe. But we'll see how your day plays out. So far I don't really like how you've been soft-pushing my push on you. But that may be biased of me. @HTS what is your opinion on this post? What is the purpose of returning to the thread with this over-explanation when he already admitted that the line of questioning was a dead end. @rayn, you felt that his push on xat was town motivated when it occurred initially. I agreed with you at that time since pushing a player to generate discussion is generally town-motivated. However, do you feel this explanation is legit?
At Kita - I know at least one player (Rels) questioned him on his approach to Xata. So him clarifying it is perfectly reasonable in context. I personally had no issues with this post, in fact I liked it. First paragraph also explains his previous behaviour - it's logical and makes sense (talking about the merlin comments).
This followup is again, what I'd expect from a town Superbia.
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I'm looking at a three-hour delay for my flight home. Fuck this weather.
That is going to put me close to deadline, so I am going to keep my primary submission to what it is now, and then have an alternate submission up ASAP so you people can discuss it before and then I will state what I'm going to do before I get on the plane. If I had to pull myself off the team, it'd be right now - Xata/rayn/Superbia.
I'm feeling better about Xata but not as good as with Super/rayn and I don't believe sicklucker and Artanis will bleed town for me in time for deadline or even before I leave Berlin, if I even do.
Also I don't feel Rels' TMI argument on superbia is valid, but will double check the rest of his followup.
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On November 03 2015 00:56 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 23:27 Half the Sky wrote:On November 02 2015 23:21 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 23:12 Half the Sky wrote:On November 02 2015 23:01 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 22:56 Half the Sky wrote:On November 02 2015 18:19 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 18:11 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 02 2015 18:09 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 18:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:
[quote]
That's interesting since there are five people who have posted something that can actually be at least considered as content. If you exclude yourself from the pool, that leaves you four people. Now for you, it is impossible that those four people are al scum -- there has to be at least one townie in them.
So what, do you think we are all scum or what? No. That is a dumb question. I'm pretty sure you were the one refusing the answer dumb questions like "are you mafia ?", maybe in the newbie game with noobking. Let me check that. What i am trying to say that i find it suspicious you are not trying to make reads yet, and i think that is not normal for you. Especially when this is not a situation where making reads does not help anything (unlike for example if in a mafia game you think everyone who has posted so far are town). If i compared this to a normal mafia this would be a situation where you know at least one of the people who have posted is mafia for sure but you are refusing to figure it out further. OK bro. I don't have townreads on anyone that posted. I don't have scumreads on them either. I have suspicions on Superbia, kita and you. This post seems somewhat contradictory (not the only post I'll comment on from Rels). Based on the sentences bolded you should in theory be scumleaning the three you listed. I'm also not clear on why you are scumreading rayn or what is jumping out at yoru scumread on rayn. I understand your argument for your initial exchange on Superbia/Xatalos is that Superbia's read on Xatalos was manufactured and I'm seeing your followup on page 16, but where was the suspicion on rayn coming from page 11? I thought this question was scummy: On November 02 2015 18:09 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 18:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 02 2015 18:02 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 17:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I take it that you don't have any townreads Rels? No. That's interesting since there are five people who have posted something that can actually be at least considered as content. If you exclude yourself from the pool, that leaves you four people. Now for you, it is impossible that those four people are al scum -- there has to be at least one townie in them. So what, do you think we are all scum or what? No. That is a dumb question. I'm pretty sure you were the one refusing the answer dumb questions like "are you mafia ?", maybe in the newbie game with noobking. Let me check that. On November 02 2015 22:56 Half the Sky wrote:
Also Rels, my post on shockey was because of him saying he's catching up, he hadn't posted jack all before that. It indicates that you read the thread, or at least the last few posts starting page 16, when you said you were stuck on page 12. Not sure it's alignement indicative but I have no idea why you would lie about that. I don't see how that made rayn scummy. He's coming to conclusions with his arguments and he's trying to see if you are coming to conclusions on people's alignments which is generally a town trait. And if you are struggling, why, townies can struggle with getting reads too (reference rsoultin in Drams) so naturally he's nitpicking to see your rationale. Mm maybe I didn't explain why I thought it was scummy. On November 02 2015 18:09 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 18:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 02 2015 18:02 Rels wrote:On November 02 2015 17:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I take it that you don't have any townreads Rels? No. That's interesting since there are five people who have posted something that can actually be at least considered as content. If you exclude yourself from the pool, that leaves you four people. Now for you, it is impossible that those four people are al scum -- there has to be at least one townie in them. So what, do you think we are all scum or what? No. That is a dumb question. I'm pretty sure you were the one refusing the answer dumb questions like "are you mafia ?", maybe in the newbie game with noobking. Let me check that. Oh I actually did! The scummy isn't nitpicking specific points, which is something town!rayn always do; the problem was asking a dumb question, when I remembered him getting angry at the fact he was being ask a dumb question, so I don't know why he would do this himself. Now rayn quoted the angry post, and it was not really the same context. Admittedly I'm finding this tenuous but after reading a few times I think I am understanding your viewpoint, you are saying that rayn isn't acting consistently between games (correct?). I don't agree this makes him scum, but I can at least see this. My only thing here - "are you mafia?" he and others have done this (example: Koshi - "how mafia are you?") out of spite/emotion, and I'm not sure such types of questions can really be taken seriously nor most people who ask them don't really expect, those questions are out of emotion imo - how can people really answer? For example when Koshi does this he accompanies that question with something else to substantiate that emotion (reference: Void), rayn does the same thing except he splits his posts up (reference SOTW I believe). The reason I disagreed with the question being dumb because I saw the purposes and how he reached his conclusions from the questions asked. Am I making sense here? You are making sense. You are wrong concerning rayn. I don't see him asking dumb questions like that. In fact, he gets angry when he's being asked dumb questions. But I agree the "do you really have 4 scumreads ?" was more of an accusation that a dumb question.
So you are saying that I'm wrong in my read on rayn (you are implying he's scum, correct?)
Why do you think his "are you mafia" is a serious (albeit dumb) question that should be taken serious and such a scumread - and why do you think this offsets the rest of his play (play that does not involve you)?
Are you suggesting in any form that I should remove him from my team?
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On November 03 2015 00:43 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 00:40 kitaman27 wrote:
Who do you trust the most at this moment ShoCkeyy? Mostly everyone is still null for me. The first team still hasn't even gone out yet.
What??!?!!?!?
I posted my first wave of nominations: rayn/me/Superbia
You are getting nothing from:
1 Superbia/Xata interactions
2 Rels interaction with anyone
3 My own interactions
There's a lot of content out there.
For you to say everyone is null you would have to explain why all of the above comes from both alignments, or why what we're doing gets nothing done for town So you would need to in my book explain possible mafia motivations - at the very least, for me.
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On November 03 2015 01:11 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 01:08 kitaman27 wrote:On November 03 2015 01:01 Xatalos wrote:
Yeah, HTS/rayn/Xata could work... HTS has seemed pretty focused on solving the game How do you differentiate HTS solving the game as town from HTS setting herself up as a likely nomination as spy by bringing along active players? Were there certain posts that you can point me to that suggest she is analyzing things from only a town perspective? Actually similar question for HTS regarding super. What about his play makes you think that he is town, rather than a mafia player who realizes the benefit of putting a player on the defensive early? Was there something in particular that stood out that was alignment indicative?
Superbia putting players on the defensive from the off is something I've seen him do as town (reference newbie 9) he's done this to me out of nowhere and he's had out of the blue pushes as town to create discussion. When I first read it, it was NAI and then I saw his second post which to me was towny. And then that followup to this make complete sense, to me he came full circle and I saw the explanation for his change on his read whilst reading Xata's filter.
I mean if he orchestrated this as mafia, then he's done a bloody good job of it.
Also I felt the post you quoted on his breakdown was pretty town, and I argued the context of his argument put him in favour of being town, particularly with how he opened the game.
With Superbia being out of the thread, if someone manages to "out-town" him I will certainly take that into account if I feel even more sure of someone else.
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EPT
