Newbie Student Mafia XI - Page 69

Sulfurus

United States166 Posts

June 16 2015 06:32 GMT

#1361

K I just realized that Oats is scummy.

I looked through his filter and minus the fluff it's just him asking questions (interspersed with attempts to discredit towny posts)

Now I'm sure n00b would be quick to remind me that asking questions is actually towny as it provides valuable scum hunting information But even if Oats has gotten anything from his posts he hasn't actually provided any of it to the thread in fact it's likely that his questions are helping mafia more then town.

##Vote: Oatsmaster

ruXxar

Norway5668 Posts

June 16 2015 06:56 GMT

#1362

Just a friendly reminder to my fellow townies.
Just because you are not the target of suspicion right now does not mean you have a valid excuse to stay inactive.
Help us hunt mafia. Please!

Rels

France13467 Posts

June 16 2015 07:11 GMT

#1363

On June 16 2015 11:08 Kickstart wrote:
People are just desperate to get a lynch on me, to the point they are making stuff up. I never promised anything, people saying I did is a lie.
[...]

You actually did. Please read my case on you.

On June 15 2015 23:19 Rels wrote:
Kickstart
I think the guy is mafia for these reasons:
1. Lots of fluff and not a lot of analysis. I didn't believe that before rerading his filter but that is true: there is almost no analysis in it.
2. This case is super forced 4 hours into the game.
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 12 2015 11:16 Kickstart wrote:
Here's something of a mini-case on why I am scum reading ruXxar atm.

First several posts he seems quite concerned about the scum team! Why is this. This doesn't seem to be normal new town player concerns to me.

Show nested quote +

Then there was his answering question slip which has been the topic of much debate. It is really weird because I said I don't like people answering questions directed at others, Trfel asks me why, and then ruxx answers -______-. I think a townie would read that and be wary of answering because they see me saying that answering for others is a bad thing. My take on it is that ruxx maybe saw an easy opportunity to seem helpful and didn't even pay attention to the interaction going on there.

Show nested quote +

Another post which doesn't seem like a town mindset at all to me. Why would town try to defend lying. This seems like scum saying "lying is ok" but trying to make it seem like something town just does all the time too, it isn't, and this is scum mindset imo.

Show nested quote +

And yet another on the lying thing that I just don't see a townie making. This just stinks of scum mindset to me again.

Show nested quote +

On June 12 2015 08:04 ruXxar wrote:

On June 12 2015 07:56 Trfel wrote:

On June 12 2015 07:54 ruXxar wrote:

On June 12 2015 07:50 Trfel wrote:

On June 12 2015 07:46 ruXxar wrote:

On June 12 2015 07:41 Trfel wrote:

On June 12 2015 07:36 ruXxar wrote:

On June 12 2015 07:32 Trfel wrote:

On June 12 2015 07:18 Kickstart wrote:
A friendly PSA: I don't like lurkers or liers or people who answer questions directed at other people.

Why don't you like it when people answer questions directed at others?

Usually you want to hear the reasoning of the person you're asking.

If someone answers the question before him, you potentially open up for someone else to make a logical conclusion beforehand, and then the guy the question was directed at get an easy bandwagon onto that guys conclusions.

At least that is what I think.

........

The "at least that is what I think" pushes it over the top. I could see it as a joke, but then there's no reason to include the last sentence. It's either inherently contradictory or unnecessarily cautious.

Scum lean.

What I meant by the last sentence was that that was my number one assumption of why he made that statement.
I won't pretend to be a mind reader, but I find it strange that he throws out unsubstantiated claims like that.

So far kickstart is a scumlean for me.

Wait....

So you are serious about your explanation for not answering a question directed at someone else, because it helps them answer the question if they are scum. But in saying this, you answered a question directed at someone else, your scum read?

This explanation is going to be good.

Yes my answer was serious.

I see now how that actually denied us information from kick start.
It was a mistake on my part to actually answer that question.

Can you please clarify, why are you scumreading Kickstart?

I didn't like his statement about not liking liars.

This whole game is based on the concept of deception.
If you don't like that aspect of the game, why are you here?
You might claim that you like hunting lying mafia,
But it's not a given beforehand what role you will be, so that doesn't make sense either.

I have no prior info about any of the players here, so he might have some personal conviction for why he said that, but to me it didn't seem like a genuine well thought through statement.

And here is a ton of WIFOM that is literally useless to town. Ended with a pointless question to me. Again to me it is just obvious why as town you don't like people to lie, I even explained a few times what I meant by the statement, so he is either not reading or pressing a nonsensical point.

Show nested quote +

On June 12 2015 08:43 ruXxar wrote:

On June 12 2015 08:19 Trfel wrote:
ruXxar

1. Answered a question directed to someone else, while explaining why answering questions directed at others hurts town
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 12 2015 07:36 ruXxar wrote:

Show nested quote +

RuXxar provided a reasonable explanation for why it is bad to answer questions directed at other people. However, this explanation was an answer to my question directed at Kickstart. In this very post, he's doing why he says that this is bad.

He's confident enough to ignore any potential purpose that I had for this question, confident enough in Kickstart's alignment that he doesn't want to hear Kickstart's answer, but not confident enough to leave the post without stating that this is what he thinks, implying that he could be wrong.

2. The person he answered a question for is now his scumread
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 12 2015 07:46 ruXxar wrote:

Show nested quote +

When he is questioned, ruxXar throws out a scum lean. However, he does this on Kickstart, the same player he just answered a question for.

Imagine that ruXxar is town. He sees Kickstart make a post, but doesn't try to look into his alignment. Then he sees me (Trfel) ask a question to Kickstart about that post, then immediately answers the question without stopping to realize that this is the same behavior criticized in his explanation (and he realizes that his play hurt town here). Only after answering my question to Kickstart does he bother to actually think about Kickstart's alignment.

I can't see this coming from a town mindset, from someone who is actually interested in determining people's alignments.

Furthermore, he hasn't made any alignment-related comments about anyone in the game other than Kickstart.

RuXxar is being contradictory, cautious, and is showing a mindset that isn't towny at all. He's not interested in thinking about people's alignments.

I beg to differ.

I've been leading an open and active discussion, answering and asking questions.
If I was scum I would be very careful not to expose myself like that.
I already admitted that I missed the logical inconsistency in answering kick starts question.

If I had been mafia then I would have been way more careful in considering my response and not make such an obvious error.

The only one that has made any statements that I don't understand / agree with so far is kick start.
He's also dodged my question so far.

Liers means if you say you are going to do something but don't when it comes to forum mafia. Also good job breaking one of my rules,

He only explained what it means, not why he said it.

So @ kickstart.

Please explain why you don't like liars.

On its own this post isn't too bad but coupled with his general tone I think this just adds to it. A tell that a lot of new scum players fall for is proclaiming their inexperience. He does this a lot in his earlier posts in the way of justifying various things because of not knowing the game or the players, and in this post he does it again when it is needless imo. Saying I agree would have sufficed but for some reason he feels the need to proclaim his inexperience, something that everyone in the game knows.

Show nested quote +

I am usually forgiving to players I don't know or newer players, but to me there are so many things that seem scummy to me that I can't do that in ruXxars case.

Thoughts?

3. Posted a lot day 1 and left a good impression on everyone, then left. Came back multiple times with an excuse but didn't a whole lot and left again. Even worse, promised something and never did it.
+ Show Spoiler +

First time he came, he promised an analysis of bats filter that never came.

On June 13 2015 05:37 Kickstart wrote:
Damn I went back to sleep and slept forever. 2 replacements already whata game. Still think ruXxar is slightly scummy but several people think he isn't so that's that. Sulfuris did come in and logic up his posts but that still leaves me baffled about his initial vote. If he is so concerned with the logic of his arguments and reads then how the hell did he make that post with that mindset. Seems like he did something scummy then tried to logic his way out. Seems the idea of a bats lynch is gathering steam. I actually thought his posting was weird but I have only played with him in 1 other game to go off of. I'll reread his filter at some point before EoD and see if I still get that impression.

On June 15 2015 07:17 Kickstart wrote:
First of all I want to apologize for my lack of activity. It isn't fair to everyone that I am usually quite active and in this game I neglected to play for some time. I am town though.
Secondly this end of cycle times is getting really stupid, please set a time and stick to it. I thought it was 21:00 originally then it was 1 hour earlier and now its 18:00.

Originally was suspicious mainly of ruxx and sulf. Sulf still scummy ruxx not so much. Hate to just come in and agree with thread sentiment but rels is scummy as well. Tbh I just skimmed through most of the EoD and the night stuff though.

4. This post seems forced to me too. It's about how he doesn't like noobking's posting. Not sure about that one though.
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 12 2015 16:38 Kickstart wrote:
Eh got some beauty sleep so I'm a bit calmer, lets see how long that lasts. Don't like n00bKing's posting in general. First game here, very lectury. Goes out of his way to tell people not to post fluff, yet posts nothing in the way of reads.

@king
Who are you suspicious of at the moment, who do you think could be scum?

5. His progression of his read on me is so bad. I think at least one of the people pushing me is doing so because I'm an easy mislynch. And I think kickstart is the most opportunistic person that came into my train. Here is his train of thought regarding me. Please read at least the last quote in the spoiler, it's hilarious as hell.
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 12 2015 16:53 Kickstart wrote:
Either Rels is second smartest person in here behind me or he is trying real hard to pocket me D:. Everything hes posted has been in line with my thinking as well.

On June 13 2015 07:35 Kickstart wrote:
Wheres does scotts 'wouldn't lynch rels' read come from. U wot.
Gosh i rly dont like list posts with no reasoning in them. Are me and rels suspicious to you but not enough to not vote and that is why we aren't in your 'like' list or what.

On June 15 2015 07:18 Kickstart wrote:
meant to go ahead and vote.

##Vote Rels

On June 15 2015 07:34 Kickstart wrote:
Yeah I don't agree with everything in noobs large post but I tend to agree that the most likely scum trio to me atm is sulf, ruxx, rels. And if one of them flips red it makes the other 2 look even scummier.

On June 15 2015 07:35 Kickstart wrote:
Maybe me being suspicious of all of them early day 1 will buy me some town cred???? I need some after being afk so long.

Conclusion: Mafia

Rels

France13467 Posts

June 16 2015 07:15 GMT

#1364

The strongest point of this case to me is the last one. Here is what happened:
1 - you were scumreading ruxx and Sulfu
2 - you jumped on my train and your only reason for doing so was:

3 - Then not long ago you came back to the thread and posted this:

On June 16 2015 08:07 Kickstart wrote:
Ill be a misslynch guys, if you are that concerned wait for a cop check or something. Should just lynch sulfurus like you were supposed to day 1.

##Unvote
##Vote Sulfuras

Really. It is your fucking first post after coming back. You obviously read the thread 'cause you unvoted me. But you didn't bother respond to the case or explain your thought process.

You're so scummy.

Trfel

7015 Posts

June 16 2015 07:24 GMT

#1365

Hi.

Reading through ruXxar's filter now. If anyone wants to talk about anything, just let me know.

Rels

France13467 Posts

June 16 2015 07:27 GMT

#1366

Hello (=

Can you confirm that the way Kickstart changes opinion is super opportunistic ? Read his filter from his vote to me to the end.

Trfel

7015 Posts

June 16 2015 07:32 GMT

#1367

On June 16 2015 16:27 Rels wrote:
Hello (=

Can you confirm that the way Kickstart changes opinion is super opportunistic ? Read his filter from his vote to me to the end.

This is a true statement, however I think his reduced activity makes it seem worse (he has less ability to push the thread where he wants it to go). Though he hasn't done this in the times where he has had a chance to.

Rels

France13467 Posts

June 16 2015 07:37 GMT

#1368

Yeah I agree AFK != scum. But since his post saying he came back to the thread:

And his last post of the day:

On June 16 2015 14:37 Kickstart wrote:
I tend to agree with your reads. Ive been suspicious of ruxx and sulf from the start and theyve not done much to change that. Like I said ruxxars posting is a bit odd so I'm not entirely sure but I would say they are my strongest scum reads. I think Oats play has been suspicious for reasons I pointed out already. I pointed it now but I also pointed it out way early in Day1 because he was doing it then too. Kept asking everyone "Can we just lynch _______?" which I think is weird because it seems like he has had no concern over who the vote is on, ever. Rels was scummy but then he wrote a dissertation so he seems alright for now. Of the veterans I would only be willing to lynch Oats probably, I think we got at least 2 scum in the new players :D. After sulfurus then ruxxar I would have to look at scotts and moosy's filters. Off the top of my head I am more suspicious of scott but that is probably just because he has scum read me and moosy hasnt so I probably need to take a closer look at them both to see how they stand on reads apart from me.

That said it's late and I'm going to sleep~

He posted 9 posts in 6 hours. If he wanted he had the time to explain his thought process, and didn't.
It's not like he just posted one post and left. He posted things over 6 hours and didn't explain shit or scumhunt or analyze shit.

Really. His reason for voting me was:

On June 15 2015 07:17 Kickstart wrote:
[...]
Hate to just come in and agree with thread sentiment but rels is scummy as well. Tbh I just skimmed through most of the EoD and the night stuff though.

And his reason for unvoting me was, 6 hours after the unvote:

On June 16 2015 14:37 Kickstart wrote:
[...]
Rels was scummy but then he wrote a dissertation so he seems alright for now.
[...]

Trfel

7015 Posts

June 16 2015 07:39 GMT

#1369

Yeah, I'm pretty convinced that Kickstart is scum at this point. Give me a bit longer, working on a cool post.

Trfel

7015 Posts

June 16 2015 07:50 GMT

#1370

Kickstart from Start of Day 2

1. Excuses instead of scumhunting
+ Show Spoiler +

I've said this before. I can't emphasize how important this is. He's been lurking and posting "I'm not scum, I'm a mislynch" instead of explaining why he isn't scum or doing actual scumhunting. This isn't a townie mindset at all.

2. Inconsistency with regards to cop check on himself
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 15 2015 09:18 Kickstart wrote:
Cop check on me is only useful in confirming im town. I am not mafia nor is anyone really suspicious of me of being mafia from what I can tell, aside from being somewhat concerned over my afkness, cop should check someone that they think will turn up red. You are awfully concerned with what blue roles we have and what they do and you are quite wrong in what actions they should be taking. Let the blue roles play their roles and stop trying to direct them into bad plays or outing themselves.

Hm, what caused the change? He says that a cop check on himself is bad because he is town, but then says that he shouldn't be lynched until he gets cop checked.

I don't think I should need to say why this is incorrect, but here goes anyway:
1. If he is in fact town, the cop check comes back green, and it's generally not good for the cop to claim a green check
2. There might not even be a cop
3. Imagine if everyone was given the right to wait for a cop check instead of getting lynched

This isn't townie at all, he's making reasons to not lynch him that he knows are bad and that he already directly contradicted.

3. Read progression
+ Show Spoiler +

On June 15 2015 07:17 Kickstart wrote:
Originally was suspicious mainly of ruxx and sulf. Sulf still scummy ruxx not so much. Hate to just come in and agree with thread sentiment but rels is scummy as well. Tbh I just skimmed through most of the EoD and the night stuff though.

This is Kickstart's first post back. And he didn't give a single reason for these reads.

On June 15 2015 07:18 Kickstart wrote:
meant to go ahead and vote.

##Vote Rels

Adds a vote on Rels.

And then he switched his vote to Sulfurus, with no reason at all? What happened to Rels?

His wagon lost momentum. But Kickstart doesn't say why he doesn't want to lynch Rels any more, he doesn't say why Sulfurus is scummy until much later.

He's not interested in actually pushing Sulfurus, but complaining about getting lynched for false reasons and inactivity. I don't see him being interested in catching scum.

His read on ruXxar doesn't make any sense. It's in these two posts.

On June 16 2015 11:08 Kickstart wrote:
The people who are extremely interested in starting this wagon on me are damdred and ruxxar it seems. Damdred I don't know how to read because he did this same retarded shit last game and was town so I don't know. Ruxxar has been scummy all game. Going through Ruxxars filter he is literally all over the place. From weird asoociated cases that make no sense, to saying sulfuras is scum to then saying if sulfuras flips red town can go ahead and lynch him next (first he is sure sulf is scum then few posts later he is sure he is town). It doesn't make any sense. Parts of his filter seem reasonable but then others he is just way out there. Checked to see if there were any shenanis from him around the grept lynch but his vote is just as weird as anyone elses. He did a complete 180 on his bats read though but not sure that indicates much.

On June 16 2015 11:11 Kickstart wrote:
ebwop: should clarify that while ruxxar being all over the place is concerning, I think it could also be typical of a new town player trying to figure things out. So while some of his actions are suspect, I think sulfurus has been more scummy in that I dont get that same feeling from his posting.

"So, ruXxar is scummy for all of these reasons. Oh wait, but this could also be a new town player. Sulfurus is scum though because I don't feel he's a new town player trying to figure things out."

.....

That said, his read on Oatsmaster isn't inherently bad, though I disagree with it.

##vote Kickstart

Rels

France13467 Posts

June 16 2015 07:56 GMT

#1371

Good case and good fucking catch on point 2, didn't see that at all.

Rels

France13467 Posts

June 16 2015 08:09 GMT

#1372

Alright most people are in the US and sleeping so let's not circlejerk about KS and talk about something else.

I you agree, I would like to have your opinion on this post of mine:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486978-newbie-student-mafia-xi?page=57#1139

Trfel

7015 Posts

June 16 2015 08:10 GMT

#1373

Yeah, I don't think I want to lynch ruXxar today. He's quite active, and he does raise some good points. He's generally clear about why he's reading people as he is.

I'll re-evaluate him more closely when I get a chance, but Kickstart is far and away the best lynch

John Williams

Rels

France13467 Posts

June 16 2015 08:16 GMT

#1374

Hehe nice

I'm listening to this myself:

Trfel

7015 Posts

June 16 2015 08:23 GMT

#1375

On June 16 2015 17:09 Rels wrote:
Alright most people are in the US and sleeping so let's not circlejerk about KS and talk about something else.

I you agree, I would like to have your opinion on this post of mine:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486978-newbie-student-mafia-xi?page=57#1139

I was writing this answer, then realized I got a bit long-winded. Spoilered for those who aren't interested.
+ Show Spoiler [Answer to Rels] +

Haha, well first, I'm in the US.... Should probably go to bed sometime myself XD

Anyway, I'm somewhat suspicious of scott31337 myself.

As to your reasons for scott31337 and MoosyDoosy being scum, I disagree. First, despite n00bKing being a flipped town, and their statement that they liked his analysis, that doesn't mean they have to follow it exactly. N00bKing's post was based on a faulty premise, that our two main wagons some time before the Day 1 lynch contained one scum, therefore Sulfurus was scum. The real contribution that n00bKing provided was the unflipped association case, which while good, is still an unflipped association case and therefore is unreliable. In the same way, scumreading MoosyDoosy and scott31337 for this reason suffers from unflipped association (relies on Sulfurus being mafia). If there's something scummy about these votes, this isn't why.

Furthermore, mafia simply won't be able to get away with choosing their targets based on a dead townie's post, as doing so is terrible and ignores a ton of information that's filled the thread since then. For example, you've started looking a ton more townie since n00bKing made this post. However, Sulfurus doesn't seem likely to put up a lot of resistance to being lynched due to his inactivity. So there is mafia motivation to lynch someone else and then Sulfurus later, though this wouldn't be based on n00bKing's post.

Rels

France13467 Posts

June 16 2015 08:30 GMT

#1376

On June 16 2015 17:23 Trfel wrote:

Show nested quote +

I was writing this answer, then realized I got a bit long-winded. Spoilered for those who aren't interested.
+ Show Spoiler [Answer to Rels] +

Alright TY. It's true that it is super weak. I agree that them utilizing noobking's post is NAI at best. But what I'm suspicious of is that they both looked like they wanted to jump on my wagon at any cost at the start of the day.

I also made a case on scott, but for now KS is scummier. I'll update my scott case day 3 to see if I still want to lynch him or no.

Trfel

7015 Posts

June 16 2015 08:35 GMT

#1377

On June 16 2015 17:30 Rels wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah, I'll definitely need to look at scott31337 Day 3 as well.

Anyway, I'm getting really sleepy, not sure I'm much more help here. See you guys tomorrow.

Rels

France13467 Posts

June 16 2015 08:36 GMT

#1378

Have a good night (=

ruXxar

Norway5668 Posts

June 16 2015 10:25 GMT

#1379

On June 16 2015 15:32 Sulfurus wrote:
K I just realized that Oats is scummy.

I looked through his filter and minus the fluff it's just him asking questions (interspersed with attempts to discredit towny posts)

Now I'm sure n00b would be quick to remind me that asking questions is actually towny as it provides valuable scum hunting information But even if Oats has gotten anything from his posts he hasn't actually provided any of it to the thread in fact it's likely that his questions are helping mafia more then town.

##Vote: Oatsmaster

What do you think about kickstart ?

Oatsmaster

United States16627 Posts

June 16 2015 13:42 GMT

#1380

Pretty ok case I guess. Dammit I hate being a wrong but now kickstart actually looks like mafia.

It's weird that sulph wants to lynch me rather than kickstart though.

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