EPT[M][N]Holy Guardians Chapter 1
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Fidei86
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I have a reasonable enough grasp of the rules, and I'm happy to do further homework and reading. If you get enough experienced people, feel free to boot me for one of them though :-) | ||
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@Viscera - thanks | ||
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On June 03 2015 07:18 milo109 wrote: I'm not exactly sure how to defend myself here. I decided to vote because I didn't like ritoky's play style. I made it clear that it was not for reasons of reads. I cannot justify my vote in terms of reads, as I've already said. If you lynch me for that, it's fine. Actual reads so far that I can justify: I don't like the use of the word 'Unfortunately' in Kickstart's accusation of me. It seems to be an attempt to come from the point of view of a paternal town, who only sadly pronounces judgement. It's possible that he actually feels that way, but it feels scummy to me. I'll read Damdred town for now just based off his questioning of me. He caught my mistake of logic, while Ritoky and Kickstart both seem to just dislike my vote. Ritoky is still null for me. Still don't like the playstyle. Still keeping my vote. No idea on the others. Hi all I've read through the thread just now. I only have one thought immediately off the bat, which is that I find it suspicious that milo comes out with the "if you lynch me for XXX, that's fine". The only thing that regular townies know is that we are not mafia, and that means that the one thing we cannot do is let ourselves be lynched without giving everything first. It's possible milo just felt a bit band-wagoned, but I thought I'd point that out. @milo - I'd like to hear your reasoning for why you said that. | ||
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Just a note, I'm heading to bed now (it's past midnight). I'll catch up on posts in a couple of hours when I wake up. Apologies for not having more to say from the get-go, this is my first game and I'm having trouble just keeping up with all the back-and-forth, let alone getting enough to get any good reads on people. | ||
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I have to admit, I'm a little blown away by how much back and forth there was. I guess there's no other way to do forum mafia, but still, it's tough. I sort of feel like I should print out all of your names on a big A3 page and then draw lines between each of you representing defences and accusations. In fact, if anyone has the time to do that, I think it would be helpful (especially later in the game, when nobody can be bothered to go through a bazillion pages of text). My only reads, and I admit they are very weak, are on Kickstarter and Viscera. I thought that both have taken a somewhat 'holier-than-thou' tone in their posts. Kickstarter started off with a very lecture-y post which felt to me like an attempt to stake out his town credentials before the mud began to fly. Then again, maybe that's just how he is as town, I dunno. Viscera has similarly been very confident in his/her posts, which is suspicious to me because I'm just not sure about anything at this point. | ||
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== @Kickstart - You said on your post on page 13 that you found some things scummy, but you were going to wait and see whether they changed. Can you now say what you were talking about? @Damdred - In your post on page 14 you said that ritoky shouldn't be lynched and that you would "revisit him during the night to make sure". Am I missing a rule here, or did you just come out as the cop? Is it possible that there is even a cop, since Onegu has claimed VT (I assume that's veteran?)? @Ritoky - You asked me a question on page 15 which I missed, I think. I got a poor read from your initial posts. My (admittedly newbie) view is that a mafia member wouldn't paint themselves all over the first two pages of a thread, especially with things as banal as you did. However, the obvious "next-level" play is to do it as mafia, relying upon everyone thinking that it would be far too weird a play for a non-mafia to make. One thing that struck me was that Kickstart changed his view on you when he said your posting style had improved, even though it hadn't by that point. That was strange to me. You were still posting gifs and one-liners, and I don't think you had really contributed anything of merit. It's not a lot to go on, but it all strikes me as a possible attempt for you to get yourself established as the harmless town clown, which naturally sucks all of the venom out of your accusers. Then again, later on I've already said earlier in the thread that Kickstarter's opening post was not to my taste. If I had to say, I'd say I have you both as slight-mafia reads. As to your question about VE and Chocolate, I think I answered that later. Sorry for not spotting your question until now. @Onegu - Can you explain to me why you would claim the special town role (VT) so early on? Doesn't that just make you an easy take-out for the mafia, since nobody (except Damdred?) has counter-claimed you? Having seen more of milo's posts, I'm leaning back towards null. We honestly didn't have that much to go on at the start, and I think his reference to being okay with lynching was probably just a slip. His recent posts strike me as the most genuinely typed things (ie don't read as being written with an agenda). I've made a list of all of the positive and negative things that people have said so far, and the person I come out most closely aligned to is Nydus, which I guess would make him my biggest town read. Specifically, Nydus has voiced suspicions on Kickstart and ritoky, which I share. He has also been suspicious of Damdred, and I have to agree with that. Whereas Kickstarter is coming across more as a traffic cop, I think Damdred seems too keen to infuse his posts with a sense of "I am town, no arguing", which seems off to me. VE's posts have the same tone to me. When Damdred got pushed on page 28, he reacted very viciously ("this is shit!"), which doesn't read to me as frustration (which a townie would have), but more like faux-righteous anger (which is more scummy). I also, as I stated before, generally agree with Chocolate as well, which puts him more towards town for me. However, after all of that, I see on page 27 that Kickstarter has the same view of Nydus as me, and also seems similarly critical of Damdred. So now I'm not sure what to believe. | ||
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Sorry for the double-post. | ||
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As to the change, it could be because he realised that if he kept going, people might want to vote him off anyway for being annoying / cluttering the thread (I think several people mentioned that they would 'policy' vote him), and that he can now transition into sounding like a good town, but having had all the suspicion sucked out of his play right at the start. For me, that is very suspicious. I have read and liked a lot of the stuff he has posted subsequently, and has left me not knowing what to think, hence why I asked the question. Answers to 'difficult' questions can often be quite telling, and at worst all I've done is waste a little bit of forum space. | ||
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On June 05 2015 00:36 Chocolate wrote: It's a really hard choice, honestly since i'm not really sold on anyone being 100% mafia I would just get rid of Onegu/SL as my first choice because 1. it's easy to hide as mafia if you never contribute 2. even if they are town they aren't very helpful unless someone makes a very good case for someone else or wants to vote one of these people with me I'll probably just leave my vote on VE because it looks like he isn't going to get lynched and (I think) we need to vote for at least somebody I really agree with what Chocolate said about Onegu, save that the lurking is so obvious (and lurking is such a classic mafia play, as I understand anyway) that he would be mad to play like this if he were actually mafia. Still, I'm leaning towards voting for him just because I don't think there's any totally slam-dunk targets today and if we mislynch on him, at least we won't be losing anyone who is being a useful townie. Obviously I'm not saying that I want a mislynch, just saying that statistically the likelihood is quite high that we will, so we should take town-contribution into account as well when voting. Some people sort of defended him earlier, saying that this was just his usual play style when he was town. Can we hear from those people again, just to get their read now we're going into the first night? | ||
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:-( Well that's really ruined this evening for me. | ||
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I wasn't sold on lynching either of them, honestly. I wanted to lynch Onegu. As the deadline approached, however, it became clear that one vote would flip the vote between Chocolate and Kickstart. I've never believed (outside of mafia) that people should dodge difficult votes - even though I didn't want to lynch either of them, I thought I should cast my vote in the race and save the person more likely to be town. I wasn't furiously clicking refresh on the page, so I didn't see KS's claim. If I had, I would have obviously switched my vote (maybe back to Onegu, or over to Chocolate, I guess it would have made no matter). | ||
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I would hesitate to include Damdred in this, since he was on the KS wagon from the start, so it could have just been a bad read. I've played with the rest of the permutations in my head a bit, and I don't think either or both of us being confirmed town does anything to exhonerate chocolate, and nor does chocolate being mafia necessarily implicate us (although it would look super bad). | ||
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One piece of useful information for the town, I guess (although it doesn't exactly help me :-\) is that if either, ritoky or I are mafia, Chocolate is also basically 100% guaranteed mafia as well. My reasoning (just in case it isn't obvious) is that if either of us are mafia then we would have known Choco was mafia and jumped on the KS wagon to save him. It would make no sense if we were mafia and chocolate was actually town, as there would be no reason for us to jump on one town bandwagon over another, especially as we had both lots of other plausible targets to go on. I would hesitate to include Damdred in this, since he was on the KS wagon from the start, so it could have just been a bad read. I've played with the rest of the permutations in my head a bit, and I don't think either or both of us being confirmed town does anything to exhonerate Chocolate, and nor does Chocolate being mafia necessarily implicate us (although it would look super bad). | ||
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1. If Damdred is mafia then Chocolate is almost 100% town because it would be very strange indeed for the mafia to target another mafia like that. 2. If chocolate is town, it makes it very unlikely ritoky and I would be mafia, for the same reasoning as above, namely that it would make no sense for ritoky or I to get involved in that kill if both the 'wagons' were actually town. We could have very easily left it alone, knowing either way a town was most likely to die. Obviously it wouldn't totally exhonerate us, but I find the other possibility (that we were mafia and just wanted to get on a town v town wagon for some next-level reason) extremely unlikely. | ||
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Just to recap the events, we had an almost guaranteed lynch on Chocolate but then ritoky and I moved in to lynch Kickstsrter (who is confirmed town). Here are the things I'm pretty sure on now: 1. If either ritoky or I are Mafia, Chocolate is almost certainly also mafia (although me being Mafia doesn't mean that about ritoky, and vice versa). This is because it would make no sense for either of us as Mafia to get involved in a town v town wagon-off. However even if ritoky and I are both town, that doesn't exonerate Chocolate. 2. If Chocolate is town, it is again almost certain that ritoky and I are both town.the reason for this is that if either of us were Mafia, we would know it was town v town and would most likely have not gotten involved. However, if Chocolate is Mafia it doesn't necessarily follow that ritoky or I (or both of us) are Mafia 3. If VE is Mafia then Chocolate is almost certainly town, as it would make no sense for a Mafia to tunnel another Mafia to the point that they were almost lynched. The reverse is true - if chocolate is Mafia, VE must be town, for the same reason - a Mafia would never tunnel a Mafia. Either of them being town doesn't exonerate the other though. I think I've got it straight now (hopefully).. Obviously there is lots of other stuff to parse over too, but I wanted to game out the most striking stuff first. What do you guys think? | ||
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Regarding whether it is normal for a townie to post hypotheticals about if they were Mafia, I can't say whether it's normal or not, as this is my first forum game. My reasons for writing it as I did was because I wanted to be as objective as possible. Obviously most things in Mafia are pretty ambiguous (ie Damdred tunnelling a townie - could be misguided town or could be Mafia trying to keep attention elsewhere). However, the events of the last EOD gave, I think, an opportunity to draw some pretty bright lines, which I did. I think these will be really helpful to the town - not on their own, but combined with reads and also any further stuff we gather as we move forward. Since I voted KS over Chocolate, just as ritoky did, it would be disingenuous at best for me to exclude myself from reasoning that purported to be objective rather than subjective. My view is that when ritoky and milo jumped on KS over Chocolate, it was not at all clear that the vote would flip. My guess is that Mafia would be very wary about so publically committing themselves to a townie lynch this early in the game and so late in the day. I don't think they are confirmed town, but my town read on both of them is pretty strong. | ||
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On June 05 2015 15:00 scott31337 wrote: Maybe - Chocolate town? EZPZ read - scum don't like scumming anybody. Rit super town? No, he's a light town. I see Fidei's ideas of "if this one mafia, etc" but he could be coached that as well, do not see any of it. ## Chocolate / Milo / (one of my pocketed vets, Ritoky/VE/Damdred) with a lean on Damdred. Damdred is playing his shit game, at least Onegu is pulling more off. I'm about 85% sure one of these are mafia, a slight lean on two. Ritoky looks a lot better then the other two, but worry when none of them die Day 3, check them out again. I just wanted to say, if you were suggesting it, that I do not have a coach or a shadow, or really anyone looking over my shoulder/whispering in my ear. Thoughts are my own. You might think they're misguided, but I'd like it if you said why you thought that, rather than just trying to dismiss them as 'coached'. | ||
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Chocolate is town I believe, he does have some problems with him. Some of his early things that he said were pretty grating to me. VE jumping on him put him under a lot of pressure and he was one of the leading candidates going into eod, in fact once GG came back he was the only candidate. However his response to this was pretty interesting, he pushed off his own wagon onto someone who wasn't getting lynched, but then he did vote KS to survive which isn't alignment indicative. However a lot of his responses at eod I liked and right now its enough to town read him. Later you say: However I will say this, Chocolate Could very well be scum here and a Ritoky, Chocolate and NydusHerMain team makes a lot of sense to me and it should to everyone else. Chocolate does just enough to survive and leaves the door open to ritoky who hesitates just enough and jumps on KS is super active up until KS claims but isn't around to unvote until near after (I believe). It makes sense and saving a scum partner might be preferable here. Which is it? | ||
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Sorry for having been quiet over the last day or so - I went out with work last night and drank waaay too much, then I've had friends round today and have just caught up with the thread. I want to talk a little bit about the ritoky night-kill. Someone said earlier that it's mostly circular (WIFOM?) to try and think too much about it. That makes sense to me, because if you say "so and so would have wanted to kill Ritoky because he was on to them", the obvious counter-argument is "well maybe the mafia are trying to set up so and so". On top of that, Ritoky was a relatively easy target because most people had him town-read (or, at least, he had barely taken any criticism apart from very early on regarding his posting style) and he was also really driving discussion in a pro-town way. However, I'm now going to totally crap on everything I just said above, and say that I think that the two people that Ritoky's night kill reflect badly on are scott and Ticktock. Ticktock Early on in day 1, ritoky was all over Ticktock. In particular, look at this. Ritoky was concerned that something was off with the post. (Honestly, I'm not sure I follow what Ritoky was on about, but that's not really the point.) He then later says this, where he says "I think me and this guy are reading separate games". However, he quietened down a bit on Ticktock as we came up to EOD 1, especially as everything turned on the Chocolate/Kickstarter debacle. After the vote, ritoky then said: TT also seemed overly upset/miffed by the vote for how little he did to try and stop it/get his target lynched. Seems like a bit of a disproportionate response. I guess a lot of people already said that but gonna echo it. TT ended up as the most yellow on ritoky's final list, which I assume means most scum.Scott Ritoky had less to say about scott, probably because scott just hasn't been as active as Ticktock (or, at least, it seems that way). Still, right at the end, in his table, ritoky wrote next to scott's name "very different from previous game". I've also had a scum read on scott for a while. Reading through his filter, I just don't think he has every contributed much of value. He posts lots of lists, but they generally only refer to vague feelings, rather than anything more substantive. He also has a serious tendency to respond to questions or comments with a "what do you think?" or "what's your list", which I think looks like a tactic to avoid answering questions. One thing in particular that I didn't like was where, when the Chocolate/Kickstarter thing was getting started, he had his vote on Chocolate. He then posted in the midst of it all here that "I'm starting to think both wagons are town". However, he didn't move his vote off Chocolate. That's a big tell to me. If he had honestly believed that, and was town himself, the logical thing would have been to try and look for a different candidate. In fact, both Chocolate and I were pushing an Onegu policy vote around that time, which would have succeeded if he had come on board and helped us to get one or two more supporters. Why a ritoky NK makes sense Ticktock is being tunnelled pretty hard by GGTemplar, but he doesn't seem to be on many other lists (I think he drew some fire from Chocolate earlier, but that seems to have died down a little). Scott doesn't seem to be on anyone's list at all - in fact I don't think anyone has really said much of anything substantive about him. Ritoky wasn't pushing either of them to get lynched, but he clearly had suspicions. To me it makes perfect sense for them to lynch him - it wouldn't draw too much fire because ritoky wasn't tunnelling either of them, but he definitely had a sense about both of them that nobody else had, and scott/TT silencing that voice totally makes sense to me. The other thing to bear in mind, for me anyway, is that Ritoky seemed like he was a really strong player, and since he is confirmed town, we know his views were genuine. It looks to me like these guys were his top targets. OMGUS (My understanding of this is that it's where people counter-accuse mafia). I recognise that scott and Ticktock are the two people who have really said negative things about me. They haven't ever said "oh, he's scum", but they've both just criticised my posts without giving good reasons, and I seem to have made it to the "null" section of their lists. As this is my first game of forum mafia, I accept that all of the above could just be confirmation bias. I'm raising this just so you guys can bear it in mind when you read the above. What does everyone think? TL;DR: ritoky was suspicious of scott and TT, so it makes sense for them to NK him | ||
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Your first post made no sense. We had plenty of time to get an alternative wagon going. KS only got four votes - two or three thrown somewhere else would have been enough. And moreover, it shouldn't really matter - if you thought Chocolate was town, you shouldn't have been voting for him, period. Looking back at it now, it looks like you could have been just laying the groundwork for reticence after the event. Your second post comes across horribly, to me anyway. Why would you want me to vote for you? If you're town, you'd want to convince me I'm wrong. I wasn't aggressive in my post, and I don't think I was rude (certainly much less than others have been in this thread). so rather than swearing, why not make a case? and if there is something you think I'd missed (ie the other ritoky game) then you could have at least linked to it and explained why my interpretation is wrong. You didn't do that. Then you immediately transition to making a more substantive post, but without referencing my accusation that your posts aren't overly detailed. if I was wrong, you could have pointed out previous posts where you did (ie that I was wrong), but you didn't. Finally, you say that you want me gone. But you don't actually give a reason. The natural town thing, if you want to get a Mafia lynched, is to make an argument that other townies might buy. But you didn't do that either. Overall, your posts come across like you're panicking at having been called out. The reason I haven't voted on you yet is because I also think TT is Mafia, and it seems like there's more chance of getting a coalition to vote him off for now. But if there isn't much movement in the next 12 hours or so, I'll vote for you - unless you turn it around and make a real case that you're town. | ||
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I have a town read on milo. I've also come round on Damdred and VE. They both got out in front of their wagons, and I don't think that it's usual Mafia play to do that. I also really liked Damdred's response to my last question. Mafia are usually (I understand) obsessed with getting things right and are wary of admitting mistakes. When I pointed out Damdred had two different reads on Chocolate, he admitted it straight up. That makes me think that he was posting an honest stream of conscience, which I don't think a Mafia would do. I'm leaning towards Chocolate being town, a lot because his behaviour during the last EOD seemed really genuine. As to SL's replacement, I'm null. It's too early still. I'm also not sure on Nymus. As for GG, I originally thought that he was scum leaning, as all his posts were just "I think you're town". But he's changed it up since then. I'm null on him too. Also, yeah, my heart is going pretty quickly. Mafia is a hell of a lot more stressful than I thought it would be. I still feel awful for being the casting vote on KS. Being town and not knowing who to trust is giving me paranoia. It's fun, but once this game is over I think I'll need a break.. | ||
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Why did I like Chocolate at eod 1? My recollection of it was that I found his posts very genuine. He seemed honestly frustrated by everything. Then again, since this is forum mafia it's perfectly easy for someone to write something that sounds genuine, but is actually fake. His reads across the entire game are totally all over the place. He had me at the bottom of one of his lists (most town), but then later said that he thought that me and milo were on a team with GGT. That's weird because I think milo is basically the closest thing we have to a confirmed town in the game (and I'm basing this mostly of ritoky being convinced milo is town, and the fact that we know ritoky is town). Also I know I'm town, and I don't think I've done anything really that would mean I should be that closely associated to GGT (although going through GGT's filter, I see that he's got a pretty strong town read on me). Honestly at this point, he isn't contributing much. Then again, I could say the same about quite a few people here (VE and Damdred aren't saying much, really, and Onegu still hasn't started really contributing, save for 'coming out' as having been pursuing some sort of eclectic sounding theory). Re GGT By "changing it up", I meant that he had stopped just wildly labelling everyone as town and had started posting more substantively. Looking over his filter now though, I see that happened earlier than I'd thought. The thing that stands out most to me about GGT is that his reads are very similar to mine. He has Tick Tock as his number one mafia, and he also has Scott on the list. His third one seems to be Damdred, and this is making more and more sense to me. Damdred and VE have both played pretty similarly, honestly. Both led D1 lynches and both make lots of short posts that are more based on discourse than analysis. I'm also going to say that I think Shen is probably town. His activity has blown everyone else's away thus far, and his style of combining questions with analysis is very townie to me. It feels similar to how ritoky was doing it, and it's also in my view the most helpful town style. Anyway, after the KS debacle I'm going to get my vote in earlier this time. I'm going to go for TT. I note that he hasn't responded at all to my WOT earlier about him and Scott. I haven't heard or seen anything to change my mind. Scott, to me, is very slightly stronger mafia read to me, but that doesn't seem like it's going to happen today. ##Vote Ticktock | ||
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If your main reason for thinking I'm Mafia is because of the EOD1 lynch vote, then surely that only makes sense if Chocolate is town. I honestly can't see why I, as a Mafia player, especially a new Mafia player, would come off one town wagon onto another town wagon, when I already had a perfectly acceptable policy lynch vote already. obviously my KS vote was disastrous, and I was the first to admit that. I've shown far more remorse than Damdred has for leading two town lynches. | ||
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The issue I have with your entire approach to this game is that it's now too late for policy lynches. After the NK we're down to what, 6 town and 3 mafia? At some point - and you can see it already - the mafia team (if you aren't mafia) are going to start laying the ground work for a "lynch all lurkers" wagon, which townies, frustrated with all the MLs and the general sense of confusion in the thread, are going to jump on. Hell, I already feel like jumping on it now despite having literally just given my reasons for why it would be a bad idea. So basically, all of the above is a plea - please, PLEASE, start taking this game more seriously and give us some actual reads and non-troll thoughts. Otherwise, if you're town, you're throwing the game. Obviously if you're actually mafia, then you're clearly one step ahead of the meta. | ||
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@TT I'll try and read Damdred's filter at lunch and come back with thoughts. | ||
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In the UK, we call it "tactical voting" - it happens all the time in our general elections due to our stupid electoral system. | ||
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I just re-read Damdred's filter, and it's honestly just a mess. Strategically, I hate it. He pussy-foots around, alluding to reads and making hyperbolic comments. His read on KS was totally wrong, obviously. He was apparently less sure on GGT, but still voted for him over TT. But as I'm reading his posts, I keep getting this annoying feeling that he's actually being genuine. His posts seem like honest reactions to events, even if he could really use to get his anger/emotions under control. | ||
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The thing is though, I'm not entirely sure it's a bad thing. Hell, I have literally no clue what's going on. If I'm coming across middle of the road, it's because this is a genuinely creepy experience. I'm just staring at the list of names, hoping that some will jump out at me, but they aren't. | ||
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I obviously know I'm town. Ritoky believed milo was town too, and actually so did you during the early part of the game. Even if you're right on NHM and Chocolate, that still only leaves two. You don't seem to have accounted for the possibility that someone is playing a great game here. I don't think that if you, TT, VE, ritoky, scott and Onegu were all town, you'd be losing to a team of me (first game), Chocolate (18 y/o who has been barely active), NHM (who has been quasi-lurky) and/or milo (who mostly everyone has or had as town). I recognise I'm utterly rubbish at this game (or I'm brilliant and TT/Scott are evil geniuses), but if all those good players were lined up against all us terrible players, I don't see how that ends up at this point. | ||
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I've already said the reasons why I'm suspicious of TT and scott. I think that an Onegu, TT, scott lineup would look pretty reasonable. The only reason I mention scott and Onegu together is that it seems to me the only reason we haven't lynched Onegu is that scott mentioned that this is Onegu's "town" meta. Which is a bullshit reason, because a player as experienced as I assume Onegu is (given he is running his own game) would be perfectly capable of acting in the way he has, town or scum. Hell, it's hardly challenging to troll for an entire day, then to show up and say we should vote for Damdred because of some stupid meta rule which sounds to me like it worked one time. | ||
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I also don't know whether to read anything into the fact that after both mis-lynches, TT has come out and said "well, I guess they were just bad town". I've never been mafia, so I don't know what that's like, but as town mislynching feels like the worst shit in the world. | ||
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Town: milo Null: Chocolate, NHM, VE, Damdred Mafia: Scott, TT Policy: Onegu I recognise that's very "middle of the road" of me, I'm just struggling. | ||
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And the more I read Scott and TT's interactions, the more they just seem like they're on the same page. Their thoughts seem to overlap, they never really give reads on each other, but rather just either make little comments back and forth. As I said, it reminds me of a man talking to a sock puppet. I'm actually going to try and get some sleep now, but if I can persuade myself to get out of bed, I'll go find some examples for you. Finally, I'm shamelessly sheeping ritoky. Ritoky said two or three times that he wasn't sure TT was even reading the same thread as him. I'm not an experienced player, at all, but Rit was and given that I'm all out at sea, the one thing I feel safe clinging too is that he strongly read TT as Mafia. GGT did as well, but I'm honestly not sure I thought his reasons were any good. | ||
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The situation at the end of EOD1 was that it was 5-4 to KS. Milo, at the last moment, after the role claim, took his vote off KS leaving it 4-4. If milo was scum with Chocolate, there is literally no reason for him to come off the KS wagon. He knew that I was around on the forums, and clearly Ritoky was because he posted just after EOD. So there was a very real risk that the vote would flip to Chocolate. Why would you bus a fellow mafia on day 1 right at the last moment to protect a blue, when you could very easily just AFK through it. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. The fact that you're contorting things to this degree just to try and get some sort of wagon going on milo with Damdred is extremely suspicious to me, ESPECIALLY when we have Onegu who is a confirmed and unabashed troll as a much juicier target, if you're truly a flailing towny. Honestly, the move also doesn't make sense even if milo is scum and Chocolate is town, because milo still would have no incentive to come off the blue for a different towny. This is a little less certain though, because I concede it is possible milo was doing some sort of next level play. But I think the strong likelihood is that he is town. | ||
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##VOTE: Ticktock | ||
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All of that comes to why I honestly believe Chocolate is town. Chocolate was getting very heavily tunnelled on Day 1, but he was still willing to throw his vote onto Onegu with me. I see voting Onegu day 1 as the most pro-town thing it was possible to do. We definitely should not have lynched KS, not only because he ended up being blue, but because he was actually reading and contributing and pushing things. Also, Chocolate is only 18 and he hasn't played much mafia. I see his playstyle more as inexperience and a small amount of immaturity, not scumminess. He posted a couple of stupid things and, as a result, got really heavily tunnelled by VE. He also got abused by Scott (who said "you'd better start shitting townie rainbows"). I'd be pissed too. In fact, Chocolate's reaction was similar (albeit more whiny and less righteous indignation) than GGT's. If he's mafia and he's totally hoodwinked me, I'll feel like a prize chump. But those are my reasons and I'm going to stick by them, for now at least. | ||
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Let me go have a flick through VE's filter, because I think he and Damdred have played very similar games. If one of them is town and the other is mafia, that would be very surprising to me. In fact, I can't recall a time when either of them has actually read the other one. Hmmm. I'm going to go and look now. | ||
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Can you rehearse your arguments for a VE town read? I've just been over his filter fully for the first time, and it's actually completely useless. The only reads he makes all game are town on Scott and Nydus and scum on Chocolate and GGT. Almost every other post is him congratulating himself on being such a great townie, or responding in a "he-says she-says" ephemera type way. I had thought that he had tunnelled Chocolate pretty hard, but it wasn't even really a tunnel, it was more of a lynch mob. As soon as Chocolate made his (admittedly weird) first post, VE started on him and essentially didn't let go, but he kept his arguments almost exclusively to one-liners and angry rebuttals. All in all, I found it EXTREMELY unenlightening and unedifying. Also he hasn't posted anything for over a day - at this rate he's on track to be mod-killed. | ||
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That is even after the Day 1, where the people voting on KS were me, him, ritoky, Damdred and milo. Ritoky is confirmed town, and most people have milo confirmed town too. On the assumption that you believe I'm town, that leaves only Damdred voting on KS (other than Choco himself), and I'm pretty sure Damdred was on the Chocolate "wagon" before it even started. This analysis rings especially true because the vote was so close, one more mafia vote on KS would have swung it. Obviously this whole thing rests on the premise that milo isn't scum. We've all been over several times why we generally think milo is town. Therefore I think the only reasonable conclusion is that either Damdred and Chocolate are both mafia, or neither of them are. Has anyone noticed Damdred deflecting off Chocolate at all? | ||
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What do you say? | ||
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Hey Damdred and NHM. You've both said before quite a few times that you thought TT was Mafia. If you both, along with Chocolate, me and milo vote for him, he's done. I've given the reasons before why I think Chocolate is town and is definitely the wrong lynch today. If you look back over the fall out from EOD 1 then you'll see ritoky was also convinced (or thought GGT and Choco were scum together, which they obviously weren't). Neither of you have, as far as I can see, rescinded your scum reads on TT (well, my re-read of the thread is only at page 47, so maybe you do later, but I don't think so). What do you say? | ||
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Fidei86
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One thing really struck me about the GGT wagon - it was basically entirely started by VE, but only after GGT had raised utter hell about Ticktock already. And that was on top of VE having previously had a mortal lock scum read on Chocolate. There was literally no reason not to continue to push for the Chocolate lynch, especially because plenty of other townies were crowing for him to be lynched as well (indeed, Shen continued to advocate it for a while). I don't see why VE would move off one of his "confirmed mafia" onto another, particularly as GGT was literally tunnel-visioned on Ticktock. I see no reason why a townie VE ships his vote from Chocolate to GGT, except to try and "bury" the Ticktock train that might have started to form. I'm very happy to be talked down from this, but that's how I see things. | ||
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Also, how about the new "Fidei" rule - first three players (TT, Scott and VE) to give up and ruin the morale of the thread are Mafia. It's that easy folks. | ||
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On June 11 2015 23:47 VisceraEyes wrote: Fidei, you think I'm mafia for giving up after my scumread on GG was proven to be wrong. I think you should be reading me as town for that, and here's why: as mafia, after leading a mislynch I should be thinking about some form of dmg control. After all, several people had intimated suspicion of me up to that point, I should be doing something like trying to mass post or lead town or SOMETHING to pick up the pieces from the GGTemplar lynch. Not AFK out of frustration, right? That's a townie thing, no matter how you slice it. Like you could WIFOM that I did it because.....why? Why would I just disappear after very vocally and very wrongly push on GGTemplar? It's not like I can just "skate" at that point because I spent the whole cycle making people look at me and my posts. It makes no sense from a mafia perspective. You didn't push the KS lynch, Damdred did. But point taken. | ||
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Of course, NHM could just be misguided town. But I hate the read. | ||
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In fact, I recall several people saying "Onegu is trolling and we need to re-evaluate". They haven't yet. Which is super suspicious. | ||
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