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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
So, fairly soon I'm going to host TL Mafia's 6th Student Mafia, and I can pretty reasonably say these games have been a resounding success. I'd like to put forward the idea that we consider replacing Newbie Games with Student games, or officially include Student games (maybe alternating between Newbie and Student) in the Newbie queue.
Student Mafia games are games that, like Newbie games, have slots reserved for new players with 3 or fewer played games on TL. Like newbie games, the setups are simple normal mini fare without any surprises. There is coaching for newbies, like newbie games. Unlike Newbie games, they also have slots available for experienced players to sign up. A typical 13p student game has 7-8 newbies and the rest TL Mafia regulars.
Completed Games:
(link) Student Mafia by Zona with Forumite.
(link) Classroom Mafia by Blazinghand with Keirathi and Koshi. - Note, game not played
(link) Detention Mafia by Blazinghand with Keirathi and Koshi
(link) Student Mafia IV by Blazinghand with ObiWanShinobi
(link) Student Mafia V by Blazinghand with Half the Sky
Thanks to our Coaches: Eden1892, Amiko, Hapahauli, Artanis[Xp], [UoN]Sentinel, GlowingBear, LoneMeow, Vivax, Darthpunk, Cephiro, HolyFlare, Marvellosity, vaderseven
My Thoughts
So, I think Student Mafia has a lot of advantages over the all-newbie setup. Now, the particular roles, game size, hosting style, etc aren't important to me here-- I'm talking only about the inclusion of some non-newbies in our introductory games. There are a lot of good examples of TL Mafia players teaching newbies by doing. A lot of coaches will tell you that many players don't take advantage of the coaching or maybe don't know how to. Having a few experienced players in a game can provide a bedrock of play that helps people in newbie games and deals with the "blind leading the blind" scenario that can happen at times.
I think I've also seen a lot of TL Mafia vets having a really good time in the newbie games and be rejuvenated by contact with early newbies. Like Emiya Kiritsugu, they were grateful they'd found someone, and by saving them, they saved themselves. hehehe. Seriously though I think there have been some really good interactions, and it creates a good learning environment with some experts, and helps our community absorb people better.
In a Student game, too, it's very easy to fill up. You don't have signups stretching for weeks like some newbie games do-- if you can only find like 10 newbies or 6 newbies or something, that's fine, you fill the rest of the game with regulars and get started. This way, we don't keep people waiting long when they want to try TL Mafia.
It's also a good environment for the many "I've played mafia before but not on TL" people who have things to learn but aren't sure where to start, but also aren't total newbies.
What do you guys think? I'd be especially interested to hear what people who played in Student Games,, regulars and newbies alike, have to say.
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I definitely enjoy the Student games, even as someone over the 3-4 game limit. It goes as a slower pace, and it's a good way to get to know the newbies and their playstyles for when they come out of the newbie status.
The coaching also allows for a second opinion on some things, even being an "open" player, it's still nice getting some coaching if that can be worked out, a second opinion on polishing parts of your game that need work.
Newbies are nice if they can fill up, but I'm not sure how quickly we are drawing in so much new blood, and that lies the question of whether all newbies are viable if we aren't drawing them in quickly enough.
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Lol, in the newbie game I played, as part of the critique I said I like the Student games better. I think that the Student games may be more intimidating to brand new players, but with the coaches and some players who know what they're doing, I think there are a lot less hiccups and it's a smoother transition to a regular game.
I know that Student games tend to have more strict behavior rules, but I think it should be made more clear that Student games are basically a recruiting tool; if the veterans in them are making the game generally unenjoyable, players are unlikely to return. Of course the argument can be made that new players have to learn and develop a thicker skin, but most will anyway as they get a better handle on how the game works...which won't happen if they're driven off too early by something that seems more antagonistic than it really is.
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I think you have some really good points BH.
I think playing with vets and more experienced players is totally different than playing in a game full of newbies. Student games prepare you for this much more and you don't feel dead in the water in your first vet game where people are making meta reads that you cant agree on because you have zero experience with these players and would have to go and read multiple previous games to verify what people are saying.
I also think that student games are great for the people who are like one or two games out of being classified as a newbie as after only 4 games a lot of people still have a lot more to learn.
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Student games seem clearly better IMO. Would support replacing newbie games esp. if new player count is declining
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
Oh yeah, Student Mafia is probably great for like, "semi-newbies" or people with 3+ games of experience who want a more comfortable environment. This might make it easier for people to become more active in TL Mafia since it's an easier transition. They also won't be forced to suddenly meet new people since regulars will play in the student games, too.
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From my "bitter-vet" perspective, I really enjoy the Student games. Not only have they produced some great games, but I think they do a far better job of integrating new players into the community. I'd be down for entirely replacing the Newbie games with this new format.
Of course, I'm not the type of player that these games cater to, and I'd love to hear more opinions from players who have dabbled in both the Newbie and Student games.
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I have already been of the opinion that it is more enjoyable and helpful to play in a game with a mixture of new and experienced players, as opposed to entirely new players.
I guess, two things that I think could be improved with the current student mafia setup are a bit more freedom in the exact number of experienced and new players, and I guess I would prefer a bit more variation in the setups (the current roles are fine, just a list of possible roles and no numbers of each given, to help encourage scumhunting instead of setup analysis).
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
Yeah, in terms of roles, I used a really really simple setup, as bare-bones as possible, since I was fiddling with the experience level. More flexibility in both will be happening going forwards now that I know mixed newbie-regular is working well.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
Hehe I was actually planning on making a "State of Newbie Games" post after the current game finished so it looks like you beat me to it.
Newbie game signups are obviously declining and when it takes 3-4 weeks to fill a nine player game things need to change. I've been trying to get in touch with GMarshal the last couple months because he mentioned that he had a few ideas about promoting newbies to try to attract more signups, but he's a busy man so we have been unable to chat.
For the last 12 months or so, I've been sending newbie players a post game survey when the game finished. There were definitely some good suggestions to improve the newbie experience. I'll try to compile the results in the next couple days.
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Newbie games are really frustrating to me because even as a coach it seems that the newbies fall into a lot of traps that more experienced players can help pull them out of. Like for example in the last newb game silver fake claimed medic with a flipped vet and kita likes two blues in his setup if a vet was playing with them could of caught them that day instead of mafia rolling town so effectively. Town in that game was pretty disorganized and no amount of coaching can really show what really happens in a game where town needs to come together.
That's why I like the student games better, one of the things I don't like about students is not knowing who you are talking to at points. That really frustrates me and leaves me scratching my head sometimes. However I think it really helps the newer players develop understanding what it is like in a more competitive environment than in the newb games.
I know one of my friends I invited here played in a newb game then played in a regular game and got curb stomped. While Rsoultin played in a student game and a newb game and has really made himself better by intergrating like that.
I really think student games are a better example of what mafia is to a point. Even if it is a headache for both sides sometimes.
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I have been in one newbie and one student game and I have no preference considering I didn't play long enough to form an opinion one way or the other.
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I've never played a student game or a newbie game. I don't know what would happen if I did.
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Two suggestions:
- Replace Newbie games with Student games; <insert made up stats here> show that the higher level of play due to the presence of experienced players increase retention rate of new players by XYZ%
- Whatever that thing was from not long ago where we were gonna try to make a move to get promotion across all of TL.net? Let's do that. It would bring in ABC% new people which according to <bogus survey> would increase the number of newbie games needed by <##>%.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On February 11 2015 14:06 Eden1892 wrote:
- Whatever that thing was from not long ago where we were gonna try to make a move to get promotion across all of TL.net? Let's do that. It would bring in ABC% new people which according to <bogus survey> would increase the number of newbie games needed by <##>%.
Unfortunately that's not up to us and none of the admins who can make it happen replied to Palmar's thread.
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On February 11 2015 11:53 kitaman27 wrote:
For the last 12 months or so, I've been sending newbie players a post game survey when the game finished. There were definitely some good suggestions to improve the newbie experience. I'll try to compile the results in the next couple days.
I am curious to see the results here. 
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From "vet" perspective I found it really enjoyable to play in the Student game i replaced in.
There are some really good advantages in Student games over newbie games imo:
- For students; people actually do (and have to) pay attention to what you say. Unfortunately in many normal games with newer people, the newer players tend to get ignored regardless of what they say just because the older players are more keen in finding scum / calling scum amogst each other (which is reasonable -- as they have meta, you know what to expect etc etc.)
- For vets; You actually learn -- or at least are forced -- to read EVERYONE's posts with thought. I know myself i tend to skip over some people in a "normal game" just because of my playstyle. I would assume many of the older players do so aswell. Also it's really easy for older players to just "decide" the one newer player is mafia because they are "off" (because noone takes them seriously anyways, so they "lose interest" or "don't interact correctly").
I can actually speak for this because when i started playing mafia my first game ever, and my first game here, both were heavily themed big games. Noone pretty much gave any shits about what i said (except for Palmar -- which is why i love Palmar ). It was really frustrating because i wasn't bad and actually found some mafia.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On February 12 2015 02:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:I can actually speak for this because when i started playing mafia my first game ever, and my first game here, both were heavily themed big games. Noone pretty much gave any shits about what i said (except for Palmar -- which is why i love Palmar ). It was really frustrating because i wasn't bad and actually found some mafia.
Large themed games are the perfect learning experience. Some lame newbie game wasn't going to teach you how to properly spell "because" 
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oh you.
+ Show Spoiler +neither was the ragequit on another game while having affected by a player on that game while he was saying he "would do anything to not get me banned" when influencing me in the game AND how i viewed the hosts in that game, despite doing nothing about it and me getting a 5-game ban because noob and emo. funny "
the best "newbie " experience of all times. I would suggest to not try tbh. ^^
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but at least i figured out you were mafia. <3
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EPT
