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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
So, fairly soon I'm going to host TL Mafia's 6th Student Mafia, and I can pretty reasonably say these games have been a resounding success. I'd like to put forward the idea that we consider replacing Newbie Games with Student games, or officially include Student games (maybe alternating between Newbie and Student) in the Newbie queue.
Student Mafia games are games that, like Newbie games, have slots reserved for new players with 3 or fewer played games on TL. Like newbie games, the setups are simple normal mini fare without any surprises. There is coaching for newbies, like newbie games. Unlike Newbie games, they also have slots available for experienced players to sign up. A typical 13p student game has 7-8 newbies and the rest TL Mafia regulars.
Completed Games:
(link) Student Mafia by Zona with Forumite.
(link) Classroom Mafia by Blazinghand with Keirathi and Koshi. - Note, game not played
(link) Detention Mafia by Blazinghand with Keirathi and Koshi
(link) Student Mafia IV by Blazinghand with ObiWanShinobi
(link) Student Mafia V by Blazinghand with Half the Sky
Thanks to our Coaches: Eden1892, Amiko, Hapahauli, Artanis[Xp], [UoN]Sentinel, GlowingBear, LoneMeow, Vivax, Darthpunk, Cephiro, HolyFlare, Marvellosity, vaderseven
My Thoughts
So, I think Student Mafia has a lot of advantages over the all-newbie setup. Now, the particular roles, game size, hosting style, etc aren't important to me here-- I'm talking only about the inclusion of some non-newbies in our introductory games. There are a lot of good examples of TL Mafia players teaching newbies by doing. A lot of coaches will tell you that many players don't take advantage of the coaching or maybe don't know how to. Having a few experienced players in a game can provide a bedrock of play that helps people in newbie games and deals with the "blind leading the blind" scenario that can happen at times.
I think I've also seen a lot of TL Mafia vets having a really good time in the newbie games and be rejuvenated by contact with early newbies. Like Emiya Kiritsugu, they were grateful they'd found someone, and by saving them, they saved themselves. hehehe. Seriously though I think there have been some really good interactions, and it creates a good learning environment with some experts, and helps our community absorb people better.
In a Student game, too, it's very easy to fill up. You don't have signups stretching for weeks like some newbie games do-- if you can only find like 10 newbies or 6 newbies or something, that's fine, you fill the rest of the game with regulars and get started. This way, we don't keep people waiting long when they want to try TL Mafia.
It's also a good environment for the many "I've played mafia before but not on TL" people who have things to learn but aren't sure where to start, but also aren't total newbies.
What do you guys think? I'd be especially interested to hear what people who played in Student Games,, regulars and newbies alike, have to say.
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I definitely enjoy the Student games, even as someone over the 3-4 game limit. It goes as a slower pace, and it's a good way to get to know the newbies and their playstyles for when they come out of the newbie status.
The coaching also allows for a second opinion on some things, even being an "open" player, it's still nice getting some coaching if that can be worked out, a second opinion on polishing parts of your game that need work.
Newbies are nice if they can fill up, but I'm not sure how quickly we are drawing in so much new blood, and that lies the question of whether all newbies are viable if we aren't drawing them in quickly enough.
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Lol, in the newbie game I played, as part of the critique I said I like the Student games better. I think that the Student games may be more intimidating to brand new players, but with the coaches and some players who know what they're doing, I think there are a lot less hiccups and it's a smoother transition to a regular game.
I know that Student games tend to have more strict behavior rules, but I think it should be made more clear that Student games are basically a recruiting tool; if the veterans in them are making the game generally unenjoyable, players are unlikely to return. Of course the argument can be made that new players have to learn and develop a thicker skin, but most will anyway as they get a better handle on how the game works...which won't happen if they're driven off too early by something that seems more antagonistic than it really is.
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I think you have some really good points BH.
I think playing with vets and more experienced players is totally different than playing in a game full of newbies. Student games prepare you for this much more and you don't feel dead in the water in your first vet game where people are making meta reads that you cant agree on because you have zero experience with these players and would have to go and read multiple previous games to verify what people are saying.
I also think that student games are great for the people who are like one or two games out of being classified as a newbie as after only 4 games a lot of people still have a lot more to learn.
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Student games seem clearly better IMO. Would support replacing newbie games esp. if new player count is declining
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
Oh yeah, Student Mafia is probably great for like, "semi-newbies" or people with 3+ games of experience who want a more comfortable environment. This might make it easier for people to become more active in TL Mafia since it's an easier transition. They also won't be forced to suddenly meet new people since regulars will play in the student games, too.
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From my "bitter-vet" perspective, I really enjoy the Student games. Not only have they produced some great games, but I think they do a far better job of integrating new players into the community. I'd be down for entirely replacing the Newbie games with this new format.
Of course, I'm not the type of player that these games cater to, and I'd love to hear more opinions from players who have dabbled in both the Newbie and Student games.
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I have already been of the opinion that it is more enjoyable and helpful to play in a game with a mixture of new and experienced players, as opposed to entirely new players.
I guess, two things that I think could be improved with the current student mafia setup are a bit more freedom in the exact number of experienced and new players, and I guess I would prefer a bit more variation in the setups (the current roles are fine, just a list of possible roles and no numbers of each given, to help encourage scumhunting instead of setup analysis).
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
Yeah, in terms of roles, I used a really really simple setup, as bare-bones as possible, since I was fiddling with the experience level. More flexibility in both will be happening going forwards now that I know mixed newbie-regular is working well.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
Hehe I was actually planning on making a "State of Newbie Games" post after the current game finished so it looks like you beat me to it.
Newbie game signups are obviously declining and when it takes 3-4 weeks to fill a nine player game things need to change. I've been trying to get in touch with GMarshal the last couple months because he mentioned that he had a few ideas about promoting newbies to try to attract more signups, but he's a busy man so we have been unable to chat.
For the last 12 months or so, I've been sending newbie players a post game survey when the game finished. There were definitely some good suggestions to improve the newbie experience. I'll try to compile the results in the next couple days.
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Newbie games are really frustrating to me because even as a coach it seems that the newbies fall into a lot of traps that more experienced players can help pull them out of. Like for example in the last newb game silver fake claimed medic with a flipped vet and kita likes two blues in his setup if a vet was playing with them could of caught them that day instead of mafia rolling town so effectively. Town in that game was pretty disorganized and no amount of coaching can really show what really happens in a game where town needs to come together.
That's why I like the student games better, one of the things I don't like about students is not knowing who you are talking to at points. That really frustrates me and leaves me scratching my head sometimes. However I think it really helps the newer players develop understanding what it is like in a more competitive environment than in the newb games.
I know one of my friends I invited here played in a newb game then played in a regular game and got curb stomped. While Rsoultin played in a student game and a newb game and has really made himself better by intergrating like that.
I really think student games are a better example of what mafia is to a point. Even if it is a headache for both sides sometimes.
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I have been in one newbie and one student game and I have no preference considering I didn't play long enough to form an opinion one way or the other.
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I've never played a student game or a newbie game. I don't know what would happen if I did.
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Two suggestions:
- Replace Newbie games with Student games; <insert made up stats here> show that the higher level of play due to the presence of experienced players increase retention rate of new players by XYZ%
- Whatever that thing was from not long ago where we were gonna try to make a move to get promotion across all of TL.net? Let's do that. It would bring in ABC% new people which according to <bogus survey> would increase the number of newbie games needed by <##>%.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On February 11 2015 14:06 Eden1892 wrote:
- Whatever that thing was from not long ago where we were gonna try to make a move to get promotion across all of TL.net? Let's do that. It would bring in ABC% new people which according to <bogus survey> would increase the number of newbie games needed by <##>%.
Unfortunately that's not up to us and none of the admins who can make it happen replied to Palmar's thread.
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On February 11 2015 11:53 kitaman27 wrote:
For the last 12 months or so, I've been sending newbie players a post game survey when the game finished. There were definitely some good suggestions to improve the newbie experience. I'll try to compile the results in the next couple days.
I am curious to see the results here. 
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From "vet" perspective I found it really enjoyable to play in the Student game i replaced in.
There are some really good advantages in Student games over newbie games imo:
- For students; people actually do (and have to) pay attention to what you say. Unfortunately in many normal games with newer people, the newer players tend to get ignored regardless of what they say just because the older players are more keen in finding scum / calling scum amogst each other (which is reasonable -- as they have meta, you know what to expect etc etc.)
- For vets; You actually learn -- or at least are forced -- to read EVERYONE's posts with thought. I know myself i tend to skip over some people in a "normal game" just because of my playstyle. I would assume many of the older players do so aswell. Also it's really easy for older players to just "decide" the one newer player is mafia because they are "off" (because noone takes them seriously anyways, so they "lose interest" or "don't interact correctly").
I can actually speak for this because when i started playing mafia my first game ever, and my first game here, both were heavily themed big games. Noone pretty much gave any shits about what i said (except for Palmar -- which is why i love Palmar ). It was really frustrating because i wasn't bad and actually found some mafia.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On February 12 2015 02:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:I can actually speak for this because when i started playing mafia my first game ever, and my first game here, both were heavily themed big games. Noone pretty much gave any shits about what i said (except for Palmar -- which is why i love Palmar ). It was really frustrating because i wasn't bad and actually found some mafia.
Large themed games are the perfect learning experience. Some lame newbie game wasn't going to teach you how to properly spell "because" 
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oh you.
+ Show Spoiler +neither was the ragequit on another game while having affected by a player on that game while he was saying he "would do anything to not get me banned" when influencing me in the game AND how i viewed the hosts in that game, despite doing nothing about it and me getting a 5-game ban because noob and emo. funny "
the best "newbie " experience of all times. I would suggest to not try tbh. ^^
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but at least i figured out you were mafia. <3
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
Over the past 8 months I've sent out surveys to players playing in their first newbie game and have received about 50 responses.
I asked seven questions and I'll summarize the responses I received below. Many people chose to skip certain questions or provide generic responses that I'll try to categorize.
How did you learn about TL mafia?
About 50% of players indicated they learned about the mafia forums on the TL sidebar
About 20% from another mafia site
About 15% from friends or family members
Other responses include the "We Want You" recruitment thread and google.
Was there anything that you wish you had known prior to the game beginning that wasn't clear ahead of time?
The number one response that I get here was a better explanation of the setup. I heard this from at least seven or eight individuals. For the newbie/student setups, I think we stick to either open setups or a list of possible open setups that may be run. There seems to be too much confusion with semi-open setups, including several players who had assumed that every role was present in the game.
Another common request that came from four to five people was a better explanation of mafia terms and abbreviations that they may encounter. I know LSB put together a guide covering that at some point, so we should probably include this thread along with the other list of guides in the OP for reference.
Finally several players indicated that they did not realize how seriously people took the game. They were expecting a more casual environment. Several people also wished they had a better idea of the time requirements before the game begun. I think I'll create a poll asking how many hours people play on average and see if we can work that into the newbie/student OP to give them an idea.
Did you find the coaches helpful? Is there anything you would change about the coaching system?
The coaching feedback was almost universally positive. Players indicated that coaches were a great resource and definitely helped improve their play. People were especially vocal in applauding the individuals who took the time to offer suggestions for improvement post game.
There were a few players who felt that their coach wasn't as active as others. They indicated that they felt ignored and sometimes received feedback long after it was relevant. I think coaches should make sure to be in the habit of checking their quicktopics frequently ones the game starts. Newbie players should also be aware that they can PM their coach to grab their attention if necessary.
One suggestion that I thought was a good idea was to attempt to match coaches to players based on their timezone whenever possible. We just need to be careful not to reveal the alignment of coaches if this is the route we take. Another player thought it might be helpful if coaches were willing to discuss the game over skype.
A few preferred to learn things on their own, rather than make use of their coach, but weren't opposed to others using them.
Do you feel that the 4 game limit for newbie games is appropriate or should it be higher/lower?
About 40% felt that it was appropriate
About 35% felt that it should be higher in the 5-7 range
About 20% felt that it should be up to an individual player to determine whether or not they are a newbie
About 5% felt it should be lower as the skill gap eventually becomes too high.
The large majority felt that the current standards are good or should be slightly higher. I think we should consider bumping it up to five games if no one is strongly opposed. There were several individuals who felt that they still would benefit from a newbie environment before moving on after four games.
Approximately how much time did you spend playing per cycle (day + night)? Do you feel that the activity requirements are reasonable or too demanding?
The answers varied a lot here ranging from a couple hours to 20+ hours per cycle.
7 hours
8-12 hours
5-6 hours
4-6 hours
7-8 hours
2-9 hours
6 hours
several hours
4-5 hours
16 hours
4-5 hours
25+ plus
6-7
20 hours
2-3 hours
4-8 hours
12 hours
4-5 hours
About 40% of players felt the activity requirements were reasonable.
About 30% of players found that games were too demanding. They described the game as exhausting, time consuming, and difficult to keep up. Several suggested that they were hoping for a more casual environment. One player suggested that we should remove the requirement for a post during the night cycle, so long as they posted during the day. I agree with that one.
About 30% of players found that the minimum activity requirements were too lenient. Activity at the start of the game was a very common complaint. Players felt frustrated when the thread would die for large periods of time due to players that were completely afk. I think we should consider bumping up the 1 post requirement to 5 posts. Almost every host I know is going to warn a player with only a single one-liner for activity, so we should update this to better reflect expectations.
Do you anticipate playing in another mafia game on TL? If not, please explain.
Most people who replied indicated that they had a positive experience and would return for another game.
About five people replied that they would not be returning or were undecided due to how time consuming the games were.
A couple decided the games were too stressful and that mafia was not for them.
A few stated that they would return, but only to play normal mini games.
Are there any other criticisms or suggestions that you have that would make the newbie games more enjoyable?
There was actually a lot of feedback given about the student mafia setup, even though most of the games that I polled were strictly newbies. The response to the student games was very positive. Players stated that they enjoyed playing with more experience players to guide them. A few went as far as saying that they preferred student games over newbie games. There were a few criticisms regarding the student setup from players who were frustrated that veterans dominated discussion. They found it difficult for their opinions to get acknowledged. One player suggested that student games should be open to only players who have a history not being overly aggressive and willing to be patient with newbie players. Overall, there seemed to be more positive feedback for student games than negative.
A couple players questioned the balance of the game and suggested that they be more newbie friendly. The all-vanilla setup in particular seemed to be disliked.
One player suggested a post restriction to make the thread easier to read and reduce spamming. I swear I didn't plant this one.
Another requested that hosts always use the date and countdown tags for deadlines to reduce the confusion for players in other timezones.
Someone suggested that we should update the mafia library sticky and make it easier to navigate. I definitely think this is a good idea and it's on my to do list. If someone else wants to help out, shoot me a PM.
A couple other various suggestions included better flavor and better advertisement for the game.
I think switching over to the student format is definitely something worth trying out. The games fill up faster and seem to be a decent experience for the players involved. I'll try to collect feedback and we can reevaluate in a half a year or so.
I think we should consider working in the Newbie title to the student games. Since so many players find out about mafia via the sidebar, we should try to make it obvious that the game is open to new players. The student name probably suggests that already, but maybe something like Newbie Student Mafia V brands itself better.
Also, it might be worth discussing whether or not these newbie/student games should return to the normal hosting queue. Over the last few years since Radfield ask me to take over, I've been trying to make sure a newbie game is running at all times by PMing a list of newbie hosts and posting in the queue thread if I can't find one. I typically send out a "newbie hosting PM" for players that are hosting a newbie for the first time with a few suggestions, such as confirmation PMs before the game starts. The current host list is completely outdated so I've been struggling to find hosts lately. BH has obviously been a ton of help carrying the load and thanks to anyone else who has volunteered at any point.
It might also be nice to standardize the default Newbie OP to include a few of the things mentioned above. If anyone else has thoughts or suggestions, I'm sure we would love to hear them! ^_^
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
Thanks for gathering all this information, Kita. It looks like you put in a ton of effort and this is very valuable.
Reading through it, I feel confident that Student-style games are good, and there are a few changes I can make to make things a little easier (better links to guides, making sure all non-newbies understand to play nice, try to match coaches a bit better). I think I'll add a bit more variability to the setup, but the current setup system in use which is "select from 3 open setups, which are explicitly listed out" will be kept since it minimizes confusion.
Since everyone seems unanimous in Student Mafia being a good addition, when the time comes for Student Mafia VI, it will be titled as Newbie Student Mafia VI and I'll run my Student Games as part of the newbie queue. Student Mafia is probably one of my favorite types of games to host, so I can commit to hosting them fairly regularly, though I won't be able to host more than every other newbie queue game since I like to take breaks between hosting, play occasionally, or host non-newbie games.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
you should use those stats as evidence that we need to be in the sidebar of all forums because 50% is no small number
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
Yeah, I'm not really sure if it's something they don't want to do due to the extra clutter, if it's not important enough for to spend the time, or if they simply aren't aware of the request.
I suppose more bumps in this thread might help for whoever hasn't already?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/476384-suggestion-for-shared-community-forums-mafia
Also, sounds good BH. I can probably host them regularly as well, though I'd prefer to do every third or forth game, rather than every other. If another 1-2 people would be interested in joining the rotation that would be cool.
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United Kingdom30774 Posts
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still need to get some cohost games under my belt...but once thats done id be happy to join the hosting rotation every 3rd or 4th game as well
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I came here to put some thoughts
But it's carnival
So I'll put thoughts in a week.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
I'm all in favor. I'll talk with Kitaman and Blazinghand about who is going to host these and how often.
I'm also in favor of the following items:
"A couple players questioned the balance of the game and suggested that they be more newbie friendly. The all-vanilla setup in particular seemed to be disliked."
"Another requested that hosts always use the date and countdown tags for deadlines to reduce the confusion for players in other timezones."
"Someone suggested that we should update the mafia library sticky and make it easier to navigate. I definitely think this is a good idea and it's on my to do list. If someone else wants to help out, shoot me a PM."
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Thoughts from a mafia player who's played a fair bit on other sites and is shopping TL Mafia to see if the community is a good fit - one of the attractive points of TL mafia is that there are games like this with formal coaching and help for new players. Student Mafia was one of the first games I read to establish if the site would be a good fit, and is a good advertisement if you want to attract folk. It's also definitely something I'd be interested in trying.
(I found TL mafia through good old Google).
Also hello!
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On February 14 2015 03:31 rsoultin wrote:
still need to get some cohost games under my belt...but once thats done id be happy to join the hosting rotation every 3rd or 4th game as well
I can pitch in as well or help co-host within the rotation.
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On February 16 2015 03:34 Tere wrote:Thoughts from a mafia player who's played a fair bit on other sites and is shopping TL Mafia to see if the community is a good fit - one of the attractive points of TL mafia is that there are games like this with formal coaching and help for new players. Student Mafia was one of the first games I read to establish if the site would be a good fit, and is a good advertisement if you want to attract folk. It's also definitely something I'd be interested in trying. (I found TL mafia through good old Google). Also hello!
Welcome to the fray, hopefully will be seeing you soon in game.
You are also more than welcome to either observe or signup as a replacement for the current Newbie game, which also features coaching, similar things for new players.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi
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Cool - I saw I'd missed signups, hadn't thought about observing. I'll do that, cheers
... I just express interest in the thread, right? Or will there be rage is a non player posts in the game thread and should I PM the GMs?
(often this kind of stuff is the hardest thing to adjust to in a new site, I reckon)
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
A new thread will go up shortly that you can sign up in
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On February 13 2015 23:33 kitaman27 wrote:
Also, sounds good BH. I can probably host them regularly as well, though I'd prefer to do every third or forth game, rather than every other. If another 1-2 people would be interested in joining the rotation that would be cool.
You can add me to the list of potential hosts.
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On February 16 2015 03:58 Tere wrote:Cool - I saw I'd missed signups, hadn't thought about observing. I'll do that, cheers ... I just express interest in the thread, right? Or will there be rage is a non player posts in the game thread and should I PM the GMs? (often this kind of stuff is the hardest thing to adjust to in a new site, I reckon)
Regarding the Newbie game itself, you want to PM kitaman27 since the game is in progress. Only post in the thread when they are taking signups.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
It's been a year since our last survey so I'll probably send out another one to our latest batch of newbies. If anyone has any suggestions for the survey or ideas for improvement to the newbie format or recruiting new players, feel free to share.
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I'd like like a higher ratio of newbies to non-newbies in the student games.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On March 07 2016 08:09 nnn_thekushmountains wrote:
I'd like like a higher ratio of newbies to non-newbies in the student games.
Might be hard to find the people to consistently get that.
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Great job Kita!
I agree with the changes in the spirit of simplicity, reducing spam and keeping things in line of what they should do. It's amazing to see that sidebar is 50% of our recruiting power - wonder how many people we have missed during all that time without us being there!
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On March 07 2016 19:44 Kurumi wrote:
Great job Kita!
I agree with the changes in the spirit of simplicity, reducing spam and keeping things in line of what they should do. It's amazing to see that sidebar is 50% of our recruiting power - wonder how many people we have missed during all that time without us being there!
The side bar is huge. I had never even imagined there could be such a thing as forum mafia until I saw it in TL's sidebar, and the idea was a revelation to me.
But we aren't in the sidebars of TL's hearthstone, dota, and LoL sites. I don't know how much traffic those pages get compared to the original, but it does seem like those games are a lot more popular than Starcraft.
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We are in the 10 commandments thread
Should be more goody two shoes people showing up
Or more nutcases
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EPT
