On February 15 2015 19:51 ElyAs wrote: Came back from sleep to see this was on. Gonna share my thoughts on what on some posts that I find significant.
On February 15 2015 10:24 Trfel wrote:
On February 15 2015 10:22 rsoultin wrote: Since when are you so confident, Truffle?
Remember last game where I opened confidently?
I do. It was the game where I was mafia.
[...]
Hier, I don't like your plan, but I agree that all participants should post as soon as possible
If everybody was willing to follow the plan, it could work, but I can't see either mafia or townies with strong reads willing to break the circle. Plus pressure vote is a good tool in my opinion and your plan forces you to cast a vote on a strong read, it's harder to pressure with only 1 switch. Still, I'd like for more people to comment on your plan.
Please be careful of what you say, typically only a mafia player would include themselves in a set of people that require "strong reads"; it's done for inclusion's sake because the mafia don't have "reads" - they can see everything as is.
Your rationale is flawed. People with strong reads are more willing to break the links, not less. Further, the number of switches you have has nothing to do with how susceptible you are to be pressured to a vote. With 2 people, out of only 9, dying every vote cycle having more than 1 switch trivializes the tool, which is what The Bridges is, and deprives each switch of its subtle meaning.
On February 15 2015 19:58 zlefin wrote: I don't like that plan, too complicated for a newbie game, and it's not like a methodology can force a superior outcome. The only achievable objective would be getting people to play more, but I think there's better ways to accomplish that.
[...]
Don't assume everyone here can't comprehend a simple set of rules. In a vacuum nothing can force a superior outcome, however passivity favours mafia.
Hit me, what "better ways" are you thinking of right now? In your experience, is the use of a smiley face signal scum for you? What about people analysing your analysis of that suspiciously sarcastic undertone some guy is utilizing? Can you analyse that analysis of your analysis and get a good read on the person?
We can go around in circles aimlessly. An engraved method forces people with a little too much knowledge to act the way people without said knowledge wouldn't.
He made a mistake and meant the opposite of what he said in the quote you posted. Still I really liked your post here.
Have you used this idea in a past game? Has it seen success? Did you just come up with it?
First you're nitpicking a post that has already been corrected xP Bad form.
Second, while I find your little set-up thing interesting (read: a concept I haven't seen put into practice before) it has flaws. Namely, it puts everything on auto-pilot and actually makes it less likely for people to do any work or analysis unless they're the ones on the block. Yuck. Admittedly I could still see a townie bringing up the idea and thinking it's good.
Third, and most damning...all you've done all game is blather on about setting up an automated circle lynch. Got any reads, Hier?
On February 16 2015 00:58 jarjarbinks wrote: I actually liked the plan just because it was different and promoted discussion. I think it could also produce some insight on who mafia kills at night too. Say if mafia kills the next guy in the link, you might take away that mafia isn't worried about being on the chop block soon. Plus people's one time ability is something real, like votes, in comparison to words. If I use my one-time ability on rsoultin, it means a lot more than me defending her in discussion.
I guess I could see either mafia or strong town reads be more willing to break the cycle over more quiet town. They are probably going to lead the vote wagons and the discussions anyways?
You don't see a problem with the simple fact that town is in the dark and mafia isn't? Most games I've played I have so many nullish or slight leans, especially early game, but using a one-time-ability on someone I'm far from certain of? That's lolworthy when it might better be preserved for later xP
Also, town not knowing each other for sure, what's to encourage making reads if the lynch is already set at start of day? How will you make your vote analysis?
Not a fan of this style of play at all. If it was so effective, it would already be in use.
Admittedly I did not notice ElyAs's edit. I am not used to the long acronym "EBWOP" so I kind of skimmed over the 1-liner to type up my response to the original post.
On February 15 2015 19:51 ElyAs wrote: Came back from sleep to see this was on. Gonna share my thoughts on what on some posts that I find significant.
On February 15 2015 10:24 Trfel wrote:
On February 15 2015 10:22 rsoultin wrote: Since when are you so confident, Truffle?
Remember last game where I opened confidently?
I do. It was the game where I was mafia.
[...]
Hier, I don't like your plan, but I agree that all participants should post as soon as possible
If everybody was willing to follow the plan, it could work, but I can't see either mafia or townies with strong reads willing to break the circle. Plus pressure vote is a good tool in my opinion and your plan forces you to cast a vote on a strong read, it's harder to pressure with only 1 switch. Still, I'd like for more people to comment on your plan.
Please be careful of what you say, typically only a mafia player would include themselves in a set of people that require "strong reads"; it's done for inclusion's sake because the mafia don't have "reads" - they can see everything as is.
Your rationale is flawed. People with strong reads are more willing to break the links, not less. Further, the number of switches you have has nothing to do with how susceptible you are to be pressured to a vote. With 2 people, out of only 9, dying every vote cycle having more than 1 switch trivializes the tool, which is what The Bridges is, and deprives each switch of its subtle meaning.
On February 15 2015 19:58 zlefin wrote: I don't like that plan, too complicated for a newbie game, and it's not like a methodology can force a superior outcome. The only achievable objective would be getting people to play more, but I think there's better ways to accomplish that.
[...]
Don't assume everyone here can't comprehend a simple set of rules. In a vacuum nothing can force a superior outcome, however passivity favours mafia.
Hit me, what "better ways" are you thinking of right now? In your experience, is the use of a smiley face signal scum for you? What about people analysing your analysis of that suspiciously sarcastic undertone some guy is utilizing? Can you analyse that analysis of your analysis and get a good read on the person?
We can go around in circles aimlessly. An engraved method forces people with a little too much knowledge to act the way people without said knowledge wouldn't.
He made a mistake and meant the opposite of what he said in the quote you posted. Still I really liked your post here.
Have you used this idea in a past game? Has it seen success? Did you just come up with it?
No. This is a fresh approach I've come up with, unless something similar has been used by someone else in the past.
On February 16 2015 01:16 rsoultin wrote: [...]
Got any reads, Hier?
No. So far I have been the only one to open myself up to non-gimmicky criticism. Once everyone's viewpoint of my model has been posted and everyone's criticisms of those viewpoints start cropping up things will be a little more clear.
On February 16 2015 00:58 jarjarbinks wrote: I actually liked the plan just because it was different and promoted discussion. I think it could also produce some insight on who mafia kills at night too. Say if mafia kills the next guy in the link, you might take away that mafia isn't worried about being on the chop block soon. Plus people's one time ability is something real, like votes, in comparison to words. If I use my one-time ability on rsoultin, it means a lot more than me defending her in discussion.
I guess I could see either mafia or strong town reads be more willing to break the cycle over more quiet town. They are probably going to lead the vote wagons and the discussions anyways?
You don't see a problem with the simple fact that town is in the dark and mafia isn't? Most games I've played I have so many nullish or slight leans, especially early game, but using a one-time-ability on someone I'm far from certain of? That's lolworthy when it might better be preserved for later xP
Also, town not knowing each other for sure, what's to encourage making reads if the lynch is already set at start of day? How will you make your vote analysis?
Not a fan of this style of play at all. If it was so effective, it would already be in use.
Nobody is forcing you to use your switch on a target you aren't sure of.
I am sure some people will have a problem with a specific person being "auto-lynched", in which case anyone is free to save that person by using up their switch ability, allowing for a standard vote we will see on Day 1. Or you can convince someone else to do it, someone who isn't in danger of being dragged into a lynch.
On February 16 2015 00:58 jarjarbinks wrote: I actually liked the plan just because it was different and promoted discussion. I think it could also produce some insight on who mafia kills at night too. Say if mafia kills the next guy in the link, you might take away that mafia isn't worried about being on the chop block soon. Plus people's one time ability is something real, like votes, in comparison to words. If I use my one-time ability on rsoultin, it means a lot more than me defending her in discussion.
I guess I could see either mafia or strong town reads be more willing to break the cycle over more quiet town. They are probably going to lead the vote wagons and the discussions anyways?
You don't see a problem with the simple fact that town is in the dark and mafia isn't? Most games I've played I have so many nullish or slight leans, especially early game, but using a one-time-ability on someone I'm far from certain of? That's lolworthy when it might better be preserved for later xP
Also, town not knowing each other for sure, what's to encourage making reads if the lynch is already set at start of day? How will you make your vote analysis?
Not a fan of this style of play at all. If it was so effective, it would already be in use.
Nobody is forcing you to use your switch on a target you aren't sure of.
I am sure some people will have a problem with a specific person being "auto-lynched", in which case anyone is free to save that person by using up their switch ability, allowing for a standard vote we will see on Day 1. Or you can convince someone else to do it, someone who isn't in danger of being dragged into a lynch.
You're not addressing the problem of no information vs. perfect information in this set-up, or how an auto-lynch discourages town trying to figure things out. Not saying people won't still try, but the pressure is less, and I don't know about you, but I personally put less weight on what people who are about to be lynched are saying versus someone who apparently has nothing to gain from speaking up?
Something I've overlooked: If a player gets successfully lynched on Day 2 by "following" the lynch on Day 1, the lynch on Day 3 has to go back to a free vote; a third person in chain cannot be auto-lynched. This is alleviate the situational initial set-up of its impact on the game.
On February 16 2015 00:58 jarjarbinks wrote: I actually liked the plan just because it was different and promoted discussion. I think it could also produce some insight on who mafia kills at night too. Say if mafia kills the next guy in the link, you might take away that mafia isn't worried about being on the chop block soon. Plus people's one time ability is something real, like votes, in comparison to words. If I use my one-time ability on rsoultin, it means a lot more than me defending her in discussion.
I guess I could see either mafia or strong town reads be more willing to break the cycle over more quiet town. They are probably going to lead the vote wagons and the discussions anyways?
You don't see a problem with the simple fact that town is in the dark and mafia isn't? Most games I've played I have so many nullish or slight leans, especially early game, but using a one-time-ability on someone I'm far from certain of? That's lolworthy when it might better be preserved for later xP
Also, town not knowing each other for sure, what's to encourage making reads if the lynch is already set at start of day? How will you make your vote analysis?
Not a fan of this style of play at all. If it was so effective, it would already be in use.
Nobody is forcing you to use your switch on a target you aren't sure of.
I am sure some people will have a problem with a specific person being "auto-lynched", in which case anyone is free to save that person by using up their switch ability, allowing for a standard vote we will see on Day 1. Or you can convince someone else to do it, someone who isn't in danger of being dragged into a lynch.
You're not addressing the problem of no information vs. perfect information in this set-up, or how an auto-lynch discourages town trying to figure things out. Not saying people won't still try, but the pressure is less, and I don't know about you, but I personally put less weight on what people who are about to be lynched are saying versus someone who apparently has nothing to gain from speaking up?
Have you played mafia before somewhere else?
The mafia start off with an advantage of knowing everyone's alignment. To counteract that I introduced a system to try and put them in a situation they don't want to be in. The rules of the model are immune to informational bias.
I don't think a newbie game is the place to try such a method, and I again stand with those who note that if such methods were truly effective, they'd already be in use the regular games.
It is however generating discussion which is useful.
Introducing a free vote after two auto-lynches would help, yes, lol.
Maybe it's my American blood, but I'd like all the votes to be free There's also the added scum WIFOM that can be introduced with NKs. Just not feeling it, Hier.
Also not really following how the rules of the model are immune to informational bias? I think having that information makes it much easier for scum to manipulate the vote.
I guess I feel that the RNG lynch has all of the positives of the Bridges method, but without many of the obvious downsides, and is this a superior method. And I have already discussed why I feel that standard, critical analysis is the best method.
By making everything automated, players would be less likely to say things or analyze the game, since it isn't necessary, and things will keep going on their own. This means that when it actually is time to vote for a lynch as normal, town has basically nothing to work with, even if it is LYLO.
In addition, this method gives mafia perfect information as to the lynch order, and without incentive to post, they should have no trouble surviving a few mislynches and winning the game.
On February 16 2015 02:24 Trfel wrote: I guess I feel that the RNG lynch has all of the positives of the Bridges method, but without many of the obvious downsides, and is this a superior method. And I have already discussed why I feel that standard, critical analysis is the best method.
By making everything automated, players would be less likely to say things or analyze the game, since it isn't necessary, and things will keep going on their own. This means that when it actually is time to vote for a lynch as normal, town has basically nothing to work with, even if it is LYLO.
In addition, this method gives mafia perfect information as to the lynch order, and without incentive to post, they should have no trouble surviving a few mislynches and winning the game.
+1, parroting me, but saying it better than I did, lol
On February 16 2015 00:58 jarjarbinks wrote: I actually liked the plan just because it was different and promoted discussion. I think it could also produce some insight on who mafia kills at night too. Say if mafia kills the next guy in the link, you might take away that mafia isn't worried about being on the chop block soon. Plus people's one time ability is something real, like votes, in comparison to words. If I use my one-time ability on rsoultin, it means a lot more than me defending her in discussion.
I guess I could see either mafia or strong town reads be more willing to break the cycle over more quiet town. They are probably going to lead the vote wagons and the discussions anyways?
You don't see a problem with the simple fact that town is in the dark and mafia isn't? Most games I've played I have so many nullish or slight leans, especially early game, but using a one-time-ability on someone I'm far from certain of? That's lolworthy when it might better be preserved for later xP
Also, town not knowing each other for sure, what's to encourage making reads if the lynch is already set at start of day? How will you make your vote analysis?
Not a fan of this style of play at all. If it was so effective, it would already be in use.
Good point. Only if everyone is actively discussed how inclined they are to save the person would there be any real discussion. If the person being "autolynched" is someone you aren't sure of or isn't you, then there isn't much incentive to use your one-time only switch. So if no one uses their switch then there probably won't be much of anything going on. I guess this strategy is banking on people using their switch?
On February 16 2015 02:24 Trfel wrote: I guess I feel that the RNG lynch has all of the positives of the Bridges method, but without many of the obvious downsides, and is this a superior method. And I have already discussed why I feel that standard, critical analysis is the best method.
By making everything automated, players would be less likely to say things or analyze the game, since it isn't necessary, and things will keep going on their own. This means that when it actually is time to vote for a lynch as normal, town has basically nothing to work with, even if it is LYLO.
In addition, this method gives mafia perfect information as to the lynch order, and without incentive to post, they should have no trouble surviving a few mislynches and winning the game.
+1, parroting me, but saying it better than I did, lol
Not my fault that you woke up before me.
Anyway, if anyone would like to discuss more about the Bridges method, I am free to share thoughts. To explain a little more of what I'm getting at, both town and mafia players want to avoid being lynched. So, they will always try to use their switch ability to not get lynched. In a normal game where someone is being pressured, you not only see how people react to pressure on them, but you also see how everyone else reacts. But using the Bridges method, then if someone is being lynched, everyone else will probably watch in silence, at least until the vote order changes. It basically changes the game so that both sides are playing to survive, instead of the mafia playing to survive and the town playing to find the mafia.
I tried to put this idea in a spreadsheet, the odds are very similar to just RNG lynching like you guys said. Mafia stands a decent chance of not even needing to use a switch (47 ish percent). Plus mafia can switch if the odds don't work in their favor.
I'm inclined to take the prior page of discussion as minor evidence of Hier and Rsoultin being town. For Hier, it seems like too complicated a plan for a scum to want to put forth. for rsoultin he was putting forth good reasons for town to dislike the plan with good analysis.
Or it could be a plot by the two of them (both being scum) to make themselves both look like town through such an exchange. So I want to make a note of possible link between the two. I think this very unlikely though.
On February 15 2015 10:22 rsoultin wrote: Since when are you so confident, Truffle?
Remember last game where I opened confidently?
I do. It was the game where I was mafia.
I really don't like Trfel's post, it is WIFOM as hell. I guess it doesn't mean a lot this early into the game, but why would you post that?
Why do you think I posted that?
On February 15 2015 22:58 zlefin wrote: I can't explain my reads well, they're only quite mild reads at this point.
For Trfel, it's partly a tonal read, and partly that he's encouraging discussion and trying to get things going. So he's either town, or a well-played (and hence dangerous) scum.
For jarjar, it's just an impression, I can't really explain why.
I actually like this post a lot. It seems very honest and genuine. I don't think that mafia players would be inclined to say that they can't explain their reads. This is tempered by the fact that zlefin is very clear to say that the reads are weak, however at this point in the game it would be foolish to say otherwise (except in extreme circumstances).
I also really like that jarjarbinks used a spreadsheet to test the Bridges method. That is something that I would expect him to do (I would have done it myself if I had the technical ability). Thus, I am more inclined to think that he is town than I was previously.
EPT
There's also the added scum WIFOM that can be introduced with NKs. Just not feeling it, Hier.
