TL Mafia LXIX: Carol Of The Bells

On December 08 2014 05:44 sicklucker wrote:
200, word essay? Like I never went to college but I think I did those in grade 3 thats not alot of words.

On December 08 2014 06:59 rsoultin wrote:


Ah, yes, mafia by filter.
First to 80 posts each day gets an automatic town pass!

On December 08 2014 16:54 KelsierSC wrote:
oh no Xatalos was the guy I spent all my first game trying to lynch

turned out he was cop.

I seem to have a talent for pinging out the cop as town

On December 09 2014 08:46 KelsierSC wrote:
So i have noticed something with this set up. If you are scrooge just claim.

On December 09 2014 08:55 KelsierSC wrote:
Ah ignore my scrooge comment i misread one of the roles

On December 09 2014 09:33 Fecalfeast wrote:

I don't expect you to have read my other town games but I've gotten exponentially worse as town.

GB do you have a comment on the current votes or discussion?

On December 09 2014 08:52 Half the Sky wrote:


Greetings everyone! 27NB, I'm also female, join the club and I drew town as well, so victory together!

Good luck and have fun with your date. As for me, well, shopping for my significant other is done and dusted. Some years it's easier than others.

Kelsier, can you please explain the Scrooge claim post? Agreed with HF, what are you seeing in this?

On December 09 2014 09:21 Half the Sky wrote:


Damdred, once I read that, I've put her in scumpile for now.

Froggy's post to me is a null, although that sentence is contradictory. I think he was trying to say that policy lynches are stupid in comparison to a scum lynch, and then he says "in the absence of a decent slip." Though poorly worded, I can still understand him and I believe he was the one who said before the game that he was returning here after 2 years ago or something, so I wouldn't blame him for saying that. I cannot comment on how things were 2 years ago as I wasn't around then. What I

Vivax's post is also null to me. Again very straightforward, I don't see any reason to sort him either way.

On December 09 2014 09:25 Half the Sky wrote:
Damdred, regarding the list post...honestly that's a lot of reads for this early D1. For now though, take what I say on that with a grain of salt because I have not looked at too many of the people's posts she listed except Templar's story, etc.

I mean calling Kita iffy for just saying hey? Hmmmm....what is the norm for him? That seems odd at face value, and not knowing him at all.

On December 09 2014 11:42 LightningStrike wrote:
I just got back and here my current reads
Town: HF,Templar, OWS, Slam, Damdred, rsoultin, FF
Null: 27ninja, HTS, Ritoky
Scum: sicklucker
sicklucker doesn't seem like he normal town self for this type of game with the post limit and he just throwing a lot of fluff more than anything trying to get the limit early
I need more posts from 27ninja and Ritoky to confirm which side they on
HTS doesn't seem like himself idk why I feel like that.
As soon more people post in the game I will make more reads to add the people.

On December 09 2014 20:56 Oatsmaster wrote:
Yeah Xata, lightning could be scum.

On December 09 2014 20:57 Holyflare wrote:
Its hardly "vivax has inconsistent reads" like you make it out to be though.

How is there nothing there in bunnies posts???? Are we even reading the same game. At least state why my case/points are wrong before denouncing them based on nothing.

Also in regards to xatalos, bunnies having a 1/4 of the votes doesn't really mean anything and there are people pushing in different directions. This means nothing about bunnies alignment at all though, mafia might not even have a voice in the thread yet so far too much wifom. Your points on hts are... Ehh.. Just not appealing? You pretty much base it all on one post which isn't even that scummy and then say the rest of her posts are fluff but they aren't really in the context, she also has no suspicion of damd and the association of bunnies/hts doesn't apply at all with the evidence.

I also don't know why you even have a kelsier read in your post at all, that looks really out of place.

On December 09 2014 21:14 Holyflare wrote:
There's quite a lot of europeans and a lot of americans went to bed so of course a case on mafia bunnies at usa bed time and europe waking up time wouldn't receive much counter pressure. I also still don't see how she shows suspicion of damdred at all? The post you quoted isn't her responding to Damdred? It doesn't show any suspicion of him at all it's a reply to him asking her to explain more reads iirc.

Not saying she can't be mafia but she's voting a good target for good reasons and her posting isn't as horrible as you make it out to be for like 2 hours of gameplay.

On December 09 2014 21:31 LoneMeow wrote:


Funny, except I wouldn't be surprised if it actually happened, knowing Holyflare :D

On December 09 2014 21:33 LoneMeow wrote:
Xatalos, what do you think about the others on the wagon? Especially the ones I commented.

On December 09 2014 12:21 The_Templar wrote:

And yet you missed every single post where I claimed joyful child...

On December 09 2014 12:02 Damdred wrote:


SL did notice my role droppings in the thread, I applaud that.

However I do not have a present to give, I think its random who gets them i'm just a named VT . However if i get a present i might pass it to someone or open it we will see.

On December 09 2014 21:52 Half the Sky wrote:
Xatalos, first, as explained, that first post I made towards bunnies was 1) before I read the trouble she'd gotten herself into, which I already admitted and 2) being the only other female in a male-dominated field, regardless of whatever roles we were, I thought it was cool to find another girl here. If you want to discuss usefulness of posts, that's fine, but there are a few others in the thread with far more fluff to start the game, as you put it.

Bunnies herself had more fluff at the very beginning of this thread (pages 16-17) and the whole Nicki Minaj thing on Ritoky followed by her vote on him is just...I mean if that's based on meta, I cannot tell that it is. I'm going to assume it's a joke vote, otherwise I cannot follow why she is voting him. Even worse, you look at her D1 list, she's voted Ritoky and she doesn't even scumlist him or change her vote before she leaves?

The rest of the posts are answers to questions, mostly by Damdred. Since you don't know me, this is my second game ever, first normal on TLM (thus unprepared for how quickly the thread took off) and I even told Damdred I had to keep reading other's posts to answer his questions on my reads.

Also where are you getting that I am suspecting Damdred? I even said later on he was reading town. The third post you cited (lot of reads for this early D1) was in reference to bunnies' list of D1 reads, which seemed like a lot to me given she was posting under pressure and it was so early in D1. My citing Kita was because calling him iffy for just saying hi seems like a stretch. Damdred asked me to discuss 27NB's list, so that's exactly what I did.

I was asked for reads on Froggy and Vivax and I was doing reads on multiple others at the same time.

LoneMeow: I did not skirt the issue. I broke up my response in two parts. First post was the reads on Froggy and Vivax. Second was a response regarding the 27NB's list of reads.

Also, the game started at 11pm GMT, and it was 1:30am when I went to bed with work at 8am. If I could have stayed up until 3-4am GMT to keep sorting things out, I would have.

I fell behind on the thread, which I've done some further catching up on just now.

On December 09 2014 22:01 Half the Sky wrote:
I also asked KelsierSC first thing last night to explain his logic for asking Scrooge to claim, he then acknowledged that he made a mistake in asking to claim, now I see that Kushm4sta has claimed scrooge.



Kush appears too experienced a player for this knowing the game mechanics (Marley, if he exists, goes through any protection) so assuming he's not Scrooge, why did he roleclaim? I'm not following.

On December 09 2014 21:57 Oatsmaster wrote:
I really dont know man Xata, her tone seems pretty happy and alright.

Meh, not making a read now on her.

Hey Holyflare, that is completely true on Vivax.
However, bunnies didnt explain shit on her change which makes me think it is really bad. So too scum to be scum.

Vivax's reasons for Bunnies scum are weak though, looks exactly like what he said bunnies was doing.

On December 09 2014 22:30 LightningStrike wrote:

Well not much of my reads did change as I did read the thread from where we were last night compared to today and it been mostly the same stuff as why I given them their original reads

On December 09 2014 22:39 LightningStrike wrote:

I did but it doesn't make sense though the way he acting though and when I played with him he was Vanilla town in the games I played with him when he had these weird shenanigans but I not seeing this game. This doesn't seem be the sicklucker I know.

On December 09 2014 22:43 LightningStrike wrote:

Strongest to Weakest in order
HF
Damdred
OWS
FF
rsoultin
Slam
Templar
Also I not buying sicklucker claim because he doesn't seem to be himself on making weird shenanigans early in the game which he does when he was Vanilla Town.

On December 09 2014 22:42 Half the Sky wrote:


Yes, I do.

My town reads seem very straightforward from everyone I've evaluated last night: Holyflare, Rasputin (rsoultin), Damdred, kitaman27 (who seems to be picking apart things as he should), you also appear to be doing the same atm.

Null - Froggy (one post discussing policy and that's it), Bats (retracted his previous argument as others had the same opinion), Vivax (talking about Froggy)

Null leaning scum - OWS - don't understand his posts, the SL lynch posts I believe were because SL was posting one-liner fluff but after that it was all one word posts.

Scum - 27NB and Kush for reasons I've explained.

I have to look into GlowingBear and Templar and a few others more. LS was null prior to his latest post updated with reads.

On December 09 2014 22:13 Half the Sky wrote:


I don't know that he's town, but I also don't know or think that scum would roleclaim this early on in the game. I would think it's too dangerous for them to do so. Additionally, the Kush I recall from last game makes these sporadic posts for whatever reason and he was town last time, so I am using meta here.

On December 09 2014 22:51 kushm4sta wrote:

That all depends on if scrooge is mafia or not. I kinda read the OP but not close enough to understand wtf is going on. I'm red but I have no scum qt?

On December 09 2014 22:56 Half the Sky wrote:


I completely missed the ninja vote until Ritoky drew attention to it.

On December 09 2014 23:01 kushm4sta wrote:
k im back for a second.
xatalos, you need to look at my behaviors in the context of me not giving a fuck. then they make more sense.

On December 10 2014 02:45 Damdred wrote:
Heres the group I would be happy lynching into today

Froggy: One post said he was going to bed, the post had plenty of double speak in it and he hasn't returned and its been quite awhile (which isn't inherrintly scummy)

Bats: Hes probably the least hesitant that I would be willing to lynch into. Besides a couple of posts he is completely forgettable, he misrepresented peoples posts and then was forced to play and lurked since then.

FF: His posts seem to lack direction and its really difficult to even remember what all hes been doing in the thread without reading his filter.

I'm not sure that I would lynch 27nb today, she has done some scummy things i'm just a bit hesitant and the follow up to her return will decide that.

People i won't listen about:
Damdred, SL, Templars, HF, Koshi, RS, Oats, probably LS, kush

People who i love but am suspicious of
Xatalos (its just so formulaic and looks so town, he once told me that hes probably mafia when he actually looks town)
GB: Hasn't really read the thread yet has pretty unexplained reads tried to get people to view him as town becasue he had a present what? Unexplained scum read on templars I think even though hes claimed
HTS pretty unremarkable play so far but i doubt i would lynch her, even though the posts are scattered does have a somewhat direction and train of thought.
Tube: Need him to post more but he is seeming okish so far

one of my top lynches is a policy lynch basically and i know that, which makes his post even more hilarious to me.

On December 10 2014 03:06 Damdred wrote:
Seriously we should lynch GB who's whole d1 policy is to lynch lurkers not ignore them completely and fo after active people this is what he did in the one hour titanic mafia as scum

On December 10 2014 04:24 Damdred wrote:



Well Xatalos you are just so overtly town I have to be suspicious of you right now its only the right answer. Besides that I figured that would be your response since we have post restrictions. You did ignore my next post where I said not to lynch you for today though.

The meta on GB isn't that bad, ever since avocado mafia its something gb has followed strictly as town to the point of getting scum read for it in some situations and as mafia going against the lurker lynch to pursue higher profile people. It is not a guaranteed scum to be sure but I think its a good chance at this point.

On December 10 2014 05:15 Damdred wrote:


No xata you have always been good at reading me you just never trust yourself and give into paranoia and scum pushing if you are town.

And yea i'm not sure that we should lynch GB based entirely on this piece of meta as meta reads can be a bit misleading, however we can lynch GB for not really contributing to the game not reading the game, not making any type of real push besides on someone who has claimed a role etc

On December 10 2014 05:18 Half the Sky wrote:


Xatalos, I'm noticing a trend here, after looking at GB's filter, I'm seeing one post refuting you for what is a pretty minor point, but most of his posts are all over the place. Damdred is correct, not sure where he's trying to go. The problem is there's a few others falling into this category (Kush, Lian, FF, one could argue Oats too) as mentioned before with random posts.
This may or may not be typical for D1, with meta being used to argue for or against some of these individuals (Kush for one, Oats was also like this last game, though I cannot comment on Ritoky, I didn't see a problem with him).

It is making some of these people though very difficult to read, and for a town agenda, that has been pretty frustrating.
Disregard meta for all of them, and they all look pretty bad.

Froggy, just read your post, I don't think #1 is entirely accurate, I got the impression people kept policy votes in the back of their mind whilst still scumhunting. Town should always be scumhunting. I think that's why Damdred called you on it.

On December 10 2014 12:36 Vivax wrote:


Yea gimme a read on Xata.

He did pull it out of his ass cause it wasn't a reaction test. A reaction test is something you purposefully do to fish a reaction. What Kelsier did was an attempt at taking advantage of the setup, then he realized it failed, then he looked at FF and called him scum for not looking more thoroughly at what he did there, meta-based.

On December 10 2014 13:02 Vivax wrote:
Then, what gave me more confidence is the matter of his read evolution on 27nb:

December 09 2014 12:42.:


December 09 2014 14:02:


December 09 2014 19:54.


December 09 2014 22:02:


Like, this doesn't make ANY sense. The reasons for her being scum were there from the start, yet all dismissed just cause so many people found them good and cause of the associative thingy. And when 27nb comes back at December 09 2014 18:07, to explain that iffy for her means null, Xata skips over it in his next posts to progressively get closer to lynching her as his traction on HTS loses strength.

It is a BIG deal whether iffy means scummy or means null in someone's opinion. Obviously you can't verify it for sure if it's just an excuse or the truth, but at least it takes some wind out of the former arguments.

And at the time when the arguments against bunnies were the strongest, Xata found some very questionable reasons for townreading her.

When the time comes where the arguments against bunnies should be put into question given her explanation, he ignores the new information and joins the wagon based on the old information, using it as the main argument.

Also notice the use of the word "fluff". "Fluff" in this game has been literally dropping down from the sky from a multitude of players, and I don't see how Xata applies it so selectively to only these two players.

I don't want to count the amount of the word "fluff", between being used as bulk of his case against HTS, to being differentiated into useless fluff and fluff with usefuleness (or something like that), to be called "not so bad in itself".
The use of the word fluff in here is mostly just an excuse to scumread people or not on a whim and completely arbitrary. You can't measure the amount of fluff, and it has to be seen in context.

When HTS posted fluff in her first post, it was scummy. Ninjabunnies had more fluff initially, but it wasn't so bad in itself.Why? Cause more people voted her! Clearly Xata has a blatant double standard here, and the read on NB should progress in the opposite way, if he had rolled town.

On December 10 2014 13:49 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Vivax is town.

Xatalos is scum.

Let's go.

##vote xatalos

On December 10 2014 14:49 rsoultin wrote:
Heh, I don't have to agree with anyone to prove I'm town, and you in particular do not intimidate me, Vivax. I think you made a good catch here. If I didn't I wouldn't have taken the time to try to verify it, even if I did make a mistake in doing so. I think this is a better case than OWS.

I still want to hear what people think of Glowingbear. Especially those who have played with him before. Is he always this...absent when he plays?

##unvote
##vote Xatalos

On December 10 2014 14:52 Fecalfeast wrote:
sheepalfeast


rasputin you didnt use the voting thread

On December 10 2014 19:31 Tubesock wrote:


I was pissed. I'm still mad. Once Koshi responded that my post was completely worthless due to the claim which I missed. I reverted to my previous read of Viv and sheeped him.

I calmed down a bit and thought about my scum read on Obi, my uncertainty about Rasputin, and realized that all through their talk about Xatas they never cited NB as a claimed role. So, I ninja'd back my vote to 27NB.

On December 10 2014 14:50 ObiWanShinobi wrote:


This is a much better response.

@FF: Xatalos made up reasons to hop on the NB wagon.

On December 09 2014 23:40 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Holyflare might be mafia for thinking I'm mafia.

On December 10 2014 11:42 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Working on them now. Tempted to call you town for holding me accountable for posting them. Give it some time because I'm going to post on a bunch of people I find important/interesting.

On December 10 2014 11:52 ObiWanShinobi wrote:


lol

Also inclined to townread this stud because he made me giggle.

On December 10 2014 13:49 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Vivax is town.

Xatalos is scum.

Let's go.

##vote xatalos

On December 10 2014 22:55 rsoultin wrote:
@Xata

Dude, give me something non-reactionary. Why, of all the people here, were your only scum reads HTS and 27nb? If they were your strongest scum reads, why? OWS is obviously scummy, of course, no matter how many times he's townread me, but your play only makes sense if you have no one else you think could be scum. I find that hard to believe.

The 27nb push is weak. Back up your push, prove to me it's strong with or without her list clarification (where you are claiming that she had a section specifically labeled "null" when she didn't), and I will change my vote on you. Or at least show why you think she's a better lynch than players like OWS and FF, liancourt, or me even. xP

That's my issue with you. All the other stuff Vivax said wasn't strong by itself, as I've already mentioned.

On December 11 2014 04:00 Koshi wrote:
Xatalos. Read my posts. I gave you 3 names I wanted to lynch.

If you can proof to me that OWS has a meta in which he is never less useful as town D1 I will revisit him for today. But you cant'. So stop being dumb. Thx.

On December 11 2014 05:29 Vivax wrote:
I'm actually content to lynch bunnies since she has not been doing much all this time. I was quite willing to listen since the post where she said that her iffy reads are her null reads but I didn't see her stepping it up so far, and she's quite capable of scumhunting when she's town.

Overall I'm willing to see where Xata and the other guys I've been calling out will be headed in the next days. Plus this game is just tiring on D1. There's no way anyone who isn't spending all his time on this game can have a good overview of everything going on, I just want this mountain of information to shrink atm, people shitposting didn't help the game.

And I don't think that this looks necessarily like a town lynch cause mafia players can simply be passive about it...Or tried to get another lynch but went down in the noise and have been forgotten about.

On December 11 2014 06:51 kitaman27 wrote:
I'm tempted to move over to Fecal for the sake of wagon of justice.

On December 11 2014 07:13 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Much brainstorm with Xat.

Maybe my vote is bad.

On December 11 2014 08:15 sicklucker wrote:
Shoot ff for suggesting it.

On December 11 2014 08:16 batsnacks wrote:
Shoot kush. The reward (2 dead scum) by far outweighs the risk.

On December 11 2014 08:21 batsnacks wrote:


He buses his team d1 as mafia in every game I can remember. If kush is mafia I would bet the game that ritoky is too.

On December 11 2014 11:12 ritoky wrote:
work op, wait what.....





what happened to that read?

you posted my name a total 0 times in your entire filter between when you made a read of me as town for making a good read on LS and trapping ff, WHO YOU THOUGHT WAS SCUM FOR MY REASONS; and then all of the sudden i am scum. because apparently i haven't done anything all game...yet in your filter you like what i did? you don't even mention me in the little blurb, i am just paired with OWS and you talk about OWS. like why am i even in this read? especially when it is contrary to what you previously said.

kels just seems like he changed his read because of thread sentiment, not because he actually believes it; hell he doesn't even try to justify the terrible read because he knows it is so terrible. this is not a read town makes at all, he is probably mafia.

On December 10 2014 09:04 GlowingBear wrote:
I'm also trying to understand why people are scumreading NB.

I have no idea.

On December 11 2014 23:33 GlowingBear wrote:
I don't have a meta. If you believe I have a town meta, you'll lynch me this game because I'm completely self aware that I'm playing completely different from my previous town games.

And guess what: I'm town.

It's very unfair to say that I've only brought things about Templar. I also had some town reads throghout my filter, like rsoultin and SL.

I will not post reads until half of day one probably. It's because I don't have time to read the entire thread properly.

On December 11 2014 23:41 Half the Sky wrote:
Vivax, since you're bringing up the idea of the "main wagon" what are your thoughts on Koshi's pushing 27NB the way he did? He's attacking a lot of the fluff (namely the manner of NB's rebuttal) though I do see he spent 3-4 posts on the same issue. Kelsier being her only read is a valid point, but it feels like overkill. Is this normal for him? I have never played with him.

On December 12 2014 10:37 Tubesock wrote:


YES.


He is of the 5.

On December 12 2014 07:37 Fecalfeast wrote:

Insightful as ever.

On December 11 2014 13:34 Fecalfeast wrote:
Finished Counting For Today

ritoky (1): 27ninjabunnies, kushm4sta, Fecalfeast
27ninjabunnies (11): batsnacks, The_Templar, Fecalfeast, Holyflare, batsnacks, Half the Sky, sicklucker, kitaman27, liancourt, Vivax, Koshi, Alakaslam, Xatalos, Tubesock, Tubesock, Trfel, Fecalfeast
Half the Sky (0): batsnacks, Xatalos, Koshi
The_Templar (2): GlowingBear, froggynoddy
sicklucker (0): rsoultin, ObiWanShinobi
ObiWanShinobi (0): rsoultin
Vivax (1): Oatsmaster
LightningStrike (0): ritoky, Alakaslam
sicklucker (0): LightningStrike
liancourt (0): LightningStrike
GlowingBear (1): Damdred
Fecalfeast (3): ritoky, LoneMeow, KelsierSC
KelsierSC (3): The_Templar, 27ninjabunnies, LightningStrike, Alakaslam
Xatalos (3): ObiWanShinobi, Vivax, Fecalfeast, rsoultin, Tubesock
froggynoddy (1): Half the Sky

Not Voting (0):

27ninjabunnies was lynched!

If you look at the final count I was on 27nb

On December 13 2014 03:25 GlowingBear wrote:
You guys are out of your minds.

I had to come quickly to my work so I couldn't bring the points on holyflare.

By the way, mass claiming IS okay now, as a lot of vts died.
It will narrow our lynches A LOT

On December 13 2014 04:11 Vivax wrote:
Not really sold on the ritoky wagon from what I've read of him lately. Most arguments are based purely on his gift claiming and scumreading somebody off that is insanity, if you want to convince me you will need more than that. His defense appeared townie to me and so did his push on his scumread.

Another townie bit I noticed about someone else was Obi saying "I don't have the grasp of what's going on in this game and that bothers me" which is something a townie will be subject to, not a scum. Don't see much reason for a scum to post such a thing. Just a thought that came to my mind and I'd like to share.

Having narrowed down the list of the NKs suspects eliminating ritoky, I'd focus more on Fecalfeast and the fact that I don't see him being pushed a lot, overall he doesn't have anything memorable to begin with and that usually alarms me. Playing doto atm will analyse him thoroughly afterwards.

On December 13 2014 04:35 sicklucker wrote:
Its interesting to note that if mafia has no rb they have all the incentive in the world to push ritoky hes already got alot of votes

On December 13 2014 04:44 Half the Sky wrote:
Xatalos, I looked over your explanation:



I'm thinking the mechanics through with the present, do you really think a scumteam would believe what he had or would they just try and continue to rolehunt?

Also I'm just trying to understand why any town would claim any present period (and especially what Ritoky has claimed) when scum have the advantage in KP (across all nights, not just the one night the present is used) and I would imagine the proportion of blue roles to VTs/named VTs is still small.

Absolutely I agree Tube is scum and he needs to go at this point, but I think a few of us were worried about that extra KP.
I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly.

On December 13 2014 04:58 Half the Sky wrote:
Alright, I see what you are saying now. First paragraph, I mainly was trying to think of him doing this from both sides
(town and scum) and how the other side would react. But you are right, scum have a lot less to gain and a lot more to lose. It is possible he could have made an honest mistake with claiming too.

Since Tubesock is the most likely scum given the slip, I'll go ahead and change my vote. I've had FF scumlisted for awhile given the inconsistencies, not answering the questions (as I cited before) and continued apathy, but Tube is definitely the better lynch at this point. He still hasn't explained that post.

On December 13 2014 05:01 Vivax wrote:


One interesting bit I find in retrospect is this one. He wanted to talk about the 27nb stuff apparently and when catching up with his comment he seems to rehearse what HF said but without taking any opinion on it. 27nb also doesn't appear in his further reasoning. As shown here:



This reply, in context, is meant to imitate what GB wrote, not really sure if trolling. I'll assume he isn't for now. I really hate posts like these cause they are so ambiguous. It's the sort of stuff people can use to say "but look I have made reads", or if you question their validity they can say "nah man I was just joking as a reply" as they see fit in a specific moment. Needs clearing up from FF.

______________________

Another matter is how he starts the game going after Alakaslam in a dramatic sumo-suit fashion. Again ambiguous so hard to tell if he's joking or serious, assuming serious again, then this later post of his doesn't make much sense:





So he's telling us he can't read Slam but still tries to at the start of the game. Obviously a futile effort. I have the same opinion about reading Slam and my solution to it is to ignore his posts until it really becomes a pressing matter to decide on him. Yet he tries it at the start of the game but sees 27nb as a secondary issue he barely comments on.

As of now I'd lynch this guy for making so little sense and talking about stuff that should be irrelevant to him (Alakaslam), and when he pretends it's relevant (comment on 27nb without ever further elaborating something on her) it really isn't. Overall his play is a pain to read and I have a hard time imagining him as town.

On December 13 2014 05:04 sicklucker wrote:
The only scenario is if they thought ritoky was going to get lynched and want to use his present to kill a town. He was far from a for sure thing but he claimed too early like I would expect mafia to wait till their about to get voted out to claim present.

Also who would have gave him a present anyway. Did gb claim to? I find it odd no third player claimed to have a present to give its so townie to say this only me and gb did. That means to me its probably in mafia hands so claiming he has it makes some sense. Expect another present claim when were about to lynch a mafia because I think they have one in there possession. regardless if its ritokys or not.

On December 13 2014 05:14 sicklucker wrote:
Na I dont think mafia would have killed dandred last night so I think they know its gone. It looks like were lucky mafia has the seer present and not the kp. Can you imagine if mafia has 4kp tonight?

On December 13 2014 05:21 Half the Sky wrote:


I don't know if we have a vigilante (I can't tell if Kush was killed by vig or Marley??), but if we're sure FF is scum, and we have the extra kp, we should probably use it on FF.

On December 13 2014 05:20 sicklucker wrote:
Na like im pretty sure ritokys town. And theres zero reason to ever kill him unless his kp can potentially end the game for mafia. I kinda wanna look at hf.

On December 13 2014 03:08 batsnacks wrote:
I hate you all

##vote: Half the Sky

On December 13 2014 21:00 Tubesock wrote:
GlowingBear. You had a nice post there, but then what happened man?? I'm holding my breath for your 2nd installment. Oh, sorry, too drunk to do it.

FecalFeast's lynch doesn't fit in my current worldview. Yeah, he's done a lot of scum things but him flipping mafia while great doesn't help me find his mates. Well, to be honest I haven't gone in with the zealousness I did with my 4 disclosed (In case Sicklucker forgot they are: The_Templar, KelsierSC, Sicklucker, GlowingBear). I have a 5th but I need the right person to flip and sadly that isn't Fecal.

To me HolyFire's really only drove the NinjaBunny wagon which we all were on and his investigating Ritoky pretty hard. He's hunting at least. Ritoky to me is very town. I read him today a bit and really the only thing I didn't really like is he likes good jokes when talking in the beginning. Yeah, so I have basically nothing on him.



You also post quickly you think it's an irreparable post. Which to me made me think of the Key & Peele Text Confusion skit specifically. I find it hilarious and very applicable to the game of Mafia. I haven't figured out how to embed it so you'll have to google, but it will be the first return.

Is he thinking he DID make an unexplainable error or is he testing and reading me? Haha, it's funny because it's both. You asked me to not remind you about flying so I'm going to spoiler the rest.

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 13 2014 16:10 Oatsmaster wrote:

Do I care?
no.

Trefel or Froggy is it today.
Actually do I prefer trefel?
Yes yes i do.

##unvote
##vote Trefel

On December 13 2014 21:35 Oatsmaster wrote:

changed my mind.
But then he stopped.

Why do people do this man.

On December 13 2014 21:46 Tubesock wrote:


Oats is making fun of me for my batshit crazy posts. His post is Foggy.

On December 13 2014 23:40 rsoultin wrote:
So everyone is seriously on Tube because they think him mentioning 5 mafia was a scumslip? Is that what y'all are really saying? Or because he was talking weird?

The seeming personality change from Day 1 to Day 2 I can kind of see but...what is the case on this guy? This smacks of picking random arbitrary reasons to lynch people again, and if we keep doing that, we might as well just be throwing darts at a dartboard. Or just give up now lol and cede the game.

Someone voting on Tube, help me out...what am I missing?

Also, if we're talking about scumslipping for him, why aren't we talking about it for me? I pointed out to SL how he broadcasted that he was turning his present over to Damdred...which would make him a good target for a KS beyond being a claimed named VT.

I must be missing something because this wagon isn't really making sense to me.

@Tube

Dude, when people ask you for scumreads they generally want you to explain why, and making pre-flipped associations (associations that so and so is scum because someone over there is also scum, when neither have been revealed as scum yet) doesn't tend to hold a lot of weight. If you can explain yourself, that would be great.

Sidenote: I think (correct me if I'm wrong here) Oats' point is lynching FF as a plynch doesn't make sense with his filter length. Lynching him for a case involving scumtells, and we have a good deal of material to work with, would be a good thing. I'm still reading him as null, perhaps null-leaning scum for not contributing a whole lot to the convos, but not like OMG you're SCUMMY. Can anyone make a case against him who thinks he's a good lynch?

On December 14 2014 00:20 rsoultin wrote:


No, I can't say that I feel 100% about anyone either, but some seem pretty scummy vice just sorta scummy, so either I'm the only one seeing/feeling that (which either means I'm wrong and seeing things where they aren't (possible)/not explaining myself well (also possible) or ppl are getting lost in the thread and going with comfortable/are scum themselves). GB, for instance. I won't say I'm 100% on him, but I did have an itching suspicion he might be a role (not because he half-claimed it, but because he kept delaying his reads like something else might inform it) but calling for a mass role reveal multiple times...yuck. No power role would want that. No plugged-in townie would think that was a good idea.

Tube...yeah he's weird. Granted. And the personality changes. I'd only half-noticed the second one, but figured that was just cause people beat him up for the Slam talk weirdness and he actually personally insulted Slam in there. But it's his first game, so him not knowing how to give reads is possible. I get the feeling that as long as he's trying he's probably not our best lynch, at least for today.

SL accused me of "slipping" because I could trace his convo and see where he hinted strongly that Damdred would be the one receiving his present. Also mentioning that mafia could easily target him to take that out of play, since essentially at the time he was the only "revealed" power role. Along with Ritoky (though it could be argued that since he said he'd open it and Damdred made no such claim, could have been waiting to see if it killed him or not...I still think the claim itself is scummy for reasons previously stated).

As for FF...would we even know when we're in LYLO? Most all of your points could be explained by apathy...just feels more policy than anything. I guess my main problem with most of the wagons right now is they're not strongly supported and I see players that we could actually make a relatively solid case against.

On December 14 2014 00:16 ObiWanShinobi wrote:
Agreed with Xat on the gamestate and FF. I don't actually feel like FF is a high percentage mafia lynch, but if he's not going to play then he should probably die.

I'm kind of "eh" on a Tube lynch. Then again, I'm kind of "eh" on every lynch because I don't see good reasons to vote a lot of people, and I feel like someone being super annoying and crazy is probably town. Inconsistent persona is something...I guess.

Can someone explain the scumslip to me again?

I'll have about an hour to play after I get back from business later today, and I won't be around for deadline. I'll do what I can when I'm around.

On December 14 2014 00:43 GlowingBear wrote:
Ok, now that I'm sober (although extremely hangover), and before I continue with the case on Holyflare, I want to say a word about presents. Although talking about the power presents give is useless, there is an important thing about its mechanics that we should consider:



+ Show Spoiler [Why?] +

Town, in the other hand, will give it to anyone day1 and the townie will most likely open it because they have a very good chance of opening a power present.

This means:

If damdred opened a present and flipped town, sicklucker is most likely town.

If ritoky claims he's got a present and that he is opening it, he's most likely town, because mafia would hold it and give to another partner to see if that was the death present or not. There is no motive for mafia to say they will open it, since that, if they open the death present, they will flip mafia anyway, so ritoky's explanation actually looks fair.

That's it guys.

Btw, no mass claiming. It was a bad idea of mine. I've just realised mafia will have problems with so many possible powers against them.

On December 14 2014 00:50 GlowingBear wrote:
Rsoultin, here is an example where mass claiming won the game:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/462188-iv-titanic-mafia-it-has-been-a-privilege

So, really, scumreading me for that is silly.

On December 14 2014 01:10 rsoultin wrote:


If all the presents except the one given to Damdred were in scum hands, let's follow this logic train, yes? They kill Damdred who obviously had the present and can't pass it on to someone else until the next day. Now they can claim what they want because no one can CC them. It's not a wild and crazy theory.

It does assume that Ritoky isn't stupid/suicidal. I've already acknowledged I have an anti-idiot bias, but I'd rather play that way than assume that no one's actions mean anything because no one is ever thinking. -shrugs-

On December 14 2014 01:19 GlowingBear wrote:


I'm not ignoring it, I'm considering probability. Mafia can do whatever they want to do. But it is likely that they do that? I don't believe so. He obviously received the present because I sent it to him. Unnecessary to claim it as mafia.

Also, I know the setup was open on titanic v, but the thing is that a lot of vts died, the probability of we having a lot of power roles alive is high and if we all claim, we will be able to narrow people and discussion. We will narrow our lunch targets a lot.
Anyway, it doesn't matter now because it is a better idea to not claim.

Masons are confirmed to each other, aren't they? Because if they are, we will have another confirmed town without a power role. Do you understand why claiming masons is okay?

On December 14 2014 01:20 GlowingBear wrote:
Xat, mafia gave up on that game because the threat of mass claiming was real. They conceded because of that, if I remember it correctly

On December 14 2014 01:27 rsoultin wrote:
Meh, I don't know.

My impression was ritoky and GB were already being scumread (ritoky more than GB) so it was a gamble. My impression may be wrong. I can see a legitimacy ploy (just like bussing a fellow mafia) if a mafia member is being scumread.

And no, GB, I don't. Masons narrows down who might have roles for scum. Scum can claim named VTs if they want or go with the whole we don't know how many could be this role card if questioned about claiming something more powerful.

I feel it's better for masons to only claim if they're in danger of being lynched.

On December 14 2014 05:37 rsoultin wrote:


It is and it isn't and I know why you're voting FF, I just don't see it as a strong case. But neither is my trfel one. With him, it's inactivity and meta (I've only seen him super try-hard before). It's also that he keeps saying he'll post cases/reads and doesn't. That his only read at all was FF, and town of all things. Okay, he can read him town, but why is that his only read? And that he spends more time telling us how lost he is and that we shouldn't lynch him (but would be justified to) than actually playing.

But if that's not enough for you, I can do FF. I just don't want to do one of my townreads...and that is where all the blasted wagons are going right now ><

On December 14 2014 05:40 liancourt wrote:
Stop throwing votes and vote kel

On December 14 2014 05:42 Tubesock wrote:
I WILL GLADLY GO TO ANY OF MY MARKS. i DON'T CARE WHICH. Slam did say he was leaving. I KNOW there are some of you that know he is town. If you wagon off HF or me, and think I'm possibly correct, then the wagon has to be big enough to account for him not switching.

On December 14 2014 05:45 liancourt wrote:


Dont vote hf

vote kel

On December 14 2014 05:45 Alakaslam wrote:
Not necessarily. I just finished my shower.

I am set to leave but the wedding does not start for an hour and 15. But it is...

... Bad manners to be poring over your phone at a wedding.

On December 14 2014 05:47 liancourt wrote:


This is such a bad reason.

If u vote kel there will be enough votes

On December 14 2014 06:00 Tubesock wrote:


You believe FF is mafia more so than Lightningstrike? They are each basically interchangeable for me.

On December 14 2014 06:17 GlowingBear wrote:


that's not the point.

The point is: he says people are looking terrible but makes no attempt to discover their alignments.
Simple as this.

He couldn't change his read on froggy noddy - who someone assumed hasn't posted much - like that. There was no particular change of playstyle and he was scumreading him since the entrance. A scumread that was reinforced by a wasted vote.

This kind of inconsistency isn't townie.

On December 14 2014 06:44 rsoultin wrote:
@Xata

Dude, you haven't wanted to lynch KSC all game. Trfel brought some good points against him. Do you have comments? Or a defense for KSC? Cause if not he's likely to be lynched.

I'll be honest, you're the sole reason I haven't switched over to him already.

On December 14 2014 07:05 liancourt wrote:


you said earlier why we should vote kel and said that kel didnt have enough votes.

now we have enough votes. Why aren't you voting him???

he is a contender for lynch and yet you are still voting for ff

On December 14 2014 07:30 KelsierSC wrote:
I'm really kind of out of it so dont know what the slam dunk case on me is. I adnit my d2 has been useless butninhave had to spend two nights in hospital.
i mean i made a lot of good town reads and made my case on ff d1 , pretty strong case. I had a logical progression to ny vote. For nb i analysed her play very strongly end of d1, my concern with lynching het was to do with her role claim, ibdidbt want to lynch a power rile, looking at the game from. Different perspectives is a towny action not scummy.

so i skimmed some stuff, i like gb he is town but just vote whatever my town circle votes.
dam,hf,bats kosh,kit,tenplar.xat are the town leaders invite what vou vote for!!
soulton is town too

where is the vote list?

On December 14 2014 07:39 KelsierSC wrote:
Xat i don't wna get lynched IM town my ff read is good in my filter, not just introspective. Isbhe a role claim though indidny see it

On December 14 2014 07:49 marvellosity wrote:
Counting something

KelsierSC (8): Alakaslam, liancourt, Tubesock, Tubesock, rsoultin, Tubesock, Fecalfeast, Alakaslam, Trfel, Tubesock, Fecalfeast, Half the Sky, rsoultin, ritoky, Xatalos, ObiwanShinobi
liancourt (0): GlowingBear
GlowingBear (0): Tubesock, rsoultin, Holyflare
Tubesock (2): sicklucker, The_Templar, Fecalfeast, froggynoddy, Xatalos, Half the Sky, LightningStrike
ritoky (0): Holyflare, rsoultin, Lightning Strike, Half the Sky
froggynoddy (0): Oatsmaster
Half the Sky (0): batsnacks
Holyflare (7): GlowingBear, Fecalfeast, batsnacks, Tubesock, Alakaslam, Tubesock, Fecalfeast, The_Templar, sicklucker, Vivax, Fecalfeast, Trfel
Fecalfeast (2): Alakaslam, Vivax, Holyflare, KelsierSC, Vivax, Xatalos, Half the Sky, rsoultin, Alakaslam, Tubesock
Oatsmaster (0): Vivax
Vivax (1): Oatsmaster
sicklucker (0): Tubesock
Trfel (1): rsoultin

Currently KelsierSC is set to be lynched. 11m until deadline.

On December 14 2014 08:28 sicklucker wrote:
I SAID IF YOU THINK YOUR GOING TO DIE TONIGHT AND YOU HAVE IMPORTANT INFORMATION SAY THAT INFORMATION RIGHT BEFORE TOMORROW STARTS. HINT HINT i DONT WANT ARE SANTAS ROLECHECKS TO BE WASTED IF ITS SOMEONE LIKE XATA WHO DIES.

On December 13 2014 17:58 Oatsmaster wrote:

Because you clearly aren't a policy lynch?
My views haven't changed, you are scum because you've shown none of the previous interest in the game.

Vivax, is your best argument, look what this dead dude said?? It doesn't even look like you seriously looked through my filter.

And kitas first point is speculation and bad.
Second point is bad too, why don't I just go on the nb lynch rather than suggesting my own lynch and making a 'weak' effort to question someone else?
Btw, froggy didn't respond to the question I asked.

I really rethinking my read on you. It really rubs me the wrong way when you use flipped townies to justify your read.

On December 14 2014 18:21 Vivax wrote:





I mean, look at this. The guy he first calls the worst wagon, is suddenly someone "he can lynch" before he even reviewed the KSC case.

On December 15 2014 04:18 Vivax wrote:


That's bullshit though, you mention arguments for Kelsier being town on multiple occasions, there is no evidence that all your arguments are based on PoE regarding Tube and ritoky.

You townread him for the trap play since D1, keep that argument all throughout D2, only to throw it away when it looks like he's getting lynched.

On December 15 2014 05:05 Vivax wrote:


Dude you have no idea how formulaic and artificial you sound when you're scum. I remember that game where you were town and EVERYBODY had trouble reading you until town started winning. That's cause you were more natural and less diplomatic than you are now.

I'm here in the thread, talk to me, you put a vote with no effect on a scummer you townread since D1 right at EoD piling up a bunch of half-assed reasons. You ignored what I wrote on Kelsier D1. You townread him for trap play before he explained it was trap play. Yes, I already mentioned this.

And if you want to push me as scumread then start immediately cause I wanna have a good laugh.

On December 09 2014 09:30 KelsierSC wrote:
So i think fecal is scum, we played a game together as town and early game he was very try hard, essentially Kush made a set up/mechanics comment and fecal went back to the setup, worked through all the permutations and then asked Kush to explain. Super town super eager.

this game i make a set up comment, then retract it and ff doesn't bat n eyelid. All he does is talk to slam about sumo. Which is pretty pointless. Like "herez an excuse nit to scumhunt" it doesn't feel towny at all

On December 10 2014 09:15 KelsierSC wrote:
Ah cool tubesock didn't read the thread.

my scrooge play was to get a specific read on ff i explained that before. Outside of that i have given lots of good town reads, all of which are developed reads not one liners, weird misrepresentation of my play again. If you need more explanation , ask.

fyi a guy talking to a girl isn't flirting, grow up.

On December 15 2014 05:38 Vivax wrote:
Judging from your filter, Xata, you have no scumreads now and for some reason you aren't suspicious of Oats.

On December 15 2014 06:07 Vivax wrote:


Cool that you try to take cred for pointing out something about someone you don't wanna read either way. If you're so sure your points were good, and still are, why not scumread him? There's plenty of scum left and FF was your last read. It's not clear where you stand now.

On December 15 2014 23:14 Holyflare wrote:
You don't have to look at meta to see oats is scummy. No idea why you only have a tiny bit based on his content and those things aren't even the things that make oats scummy.





It's things like this where he tries to shut down wagons (on conveniently town wagons (pending ff isn't gf or something) based on really just nothing. It's worse when he tries to shit on the ff lynch because of his post count and not the content especially as there were lots of content cases on ff at that point and i don't think it was till after vivax called him out that he started adding more reasons why the lynch was bad (the nk analysis things etc).

He is just uninvolved and downplaying lynches to end up only lynching lurkers.

On December 15 2014 13:16 rsoultin wrote:


Eh, Xatalos. For awhile I thought he'd be a good person to listen to/sheep. What I mean by that is people have town reads, yes, but not all your town reads are going to be players you actually agree with. Xatalos is logical and appeals to my need for things to make sense, and I was townreading him.

I'm less certain of him now. Not so much because of the voting at the end of the day, but because I went back through his filter when Vivax was riding him. He's very...noncommittal through most of it? Yes I know this is something to do with tone. But his reads and statements came off very cautious to me, like he's reluctant to make scum reads or something. Cautious about bunnies, reading KSC as town because his move was "too bold" for mafia, lynching bunnies cause no reason not to, noncommittal about HF and Vivax still being alive after night 1 (like he's hinting that they might be scum but not willing to pursue it), focusing on Tubes "scumslip", FF then becomes "too scum to be scum"...but then goes back to scumreading him for something called "Occam's razor"?

I'm assuming that means if it smells like a rat it's a rat in layman's terms, but I haven't looked it up.

Don't see any point where he's reading someone as strongly scummy, just this side of null. And he does seem to dismiss KSC as a potential lynch entirely, too, but that could just be a town being wrong. I also don't see (though I might have missed it) where his ritoky read changed from town to a possible lynch.

Xatalos said he had reads but wouldn't give them Night 2. He may have had his reasons, but I'd like to see them now.

I'm not scum-reading him, per se, but there are doubts in my head now. I think I just didn't notice him as much because he's not as vocal/confrontational as a lot of the other players, and I don't know that caution in and of itself is a exclusive to scum, but given how often he's commented that scum wouldn't do anything to draw attention to themselves, and then seeing how cautiously he's been playing...it does bring up doubts.

On December 16 2014 03:44 LightningStrike wrote:
Guys I think the Mass Murderer is out of bullets because he will be given only 2 bullets to try to kill people and since there is no refund in bullets if I recalled reading the role description it's only going to be 1 death per night now so we got some time to figure out who is scum but we still under pressure though to get out some scum members to make connections on the remaining scum members thus we win the game as town.

On December 16 2014 04:04 LightningStrike wrote:
I got GB null leaning scum but I would rather lynch Tubesock right now read my thing on him earlier on why.

On December 16 2014 04:18 GlowingBear wrote:
-.-

None of you has good reasons against me.

Jesus.

On December 16 2014 04:44 Fecalfeast wrote:
I was never sold on tubesack being town but there was one post that made me wonder



Who gives an ultimatum between himself and his scum buddy?

On December 16 2014 22:12 LightningStrike wrote:

rsoultin just made a case on GB a couple posts ago for next Day lynch. How you feel about the case rsoultin made for GB lynch for next Day lynch?

On December 16 2014 22:37 The_Templar wrote:

Are you serious?

On December 17 2014 04:39 batsnacks wrote:
How many people are scum reading ritoky but not HF?

If this is true for you pls explain why you are scum reading ritoky.

@ritoky please walk me through from the beginning exactly what happened with you claiming and how much of what youve said is true. Start from when you first received the present, if you even did receive a present.

On December 17 2014 11:25 Vivax wrote:


You forget to consider protective roles, and I'm sorry to disappoint you, but my claim is completely legit, the mass murderer only has 2 bullets he can withhold, and sl's claim is also most likely legit.

Basing all your reads on night actions and setup speculation presuming you knew what they were is veeeery bad play. On the other hand you 180 ° on HF knowing that scum preferred voting Kelsier over him (might be that he asked to be bussed while being in hospital cause he couldn't play though, so his buddies could harvest some cred, that's also pretty speculative).

Ultimately it's better to focus on the actual plays rather than all this stuff, although given the difficulty in reading HF's plays it might be worth giving it a shot in his case.

On December 17 2014 16:37 liancourt wrote:
whats happening

On December 17 2014 18:16 Vivax wrote:
Xata, help me out, these are the possible scummers in my book atm:

Templar
Froggy
Oats
GB
HF
You(?)
Hell even Fecalfeast doesn't seem unfeasible even tho he got greenchecked (I revisited the N1 kills, kita, Damdred, Koshi, all of them suspected ritoky, but most also FF, Kita suspected Oats, and froggy was suspicious-y.

Can you pick 3 you would lynch and tell me who you'd rather see as scum between HF/GB?

Not like you never talked about it but I 'd like to know your present opinion.

On December 17 2014 08:21 Fecalfeast wrote:
I received a present and am opening it.

On December 17 2014 18:39 Vivax wrote:


Any reason for froggy not being an option? He's like the least active of the bunch.

On December 18 2014 22:58 Holyflare wrote:


not gonna comment on that giant wall i just posted...?

On December 18 2014 23:22 rsoultin wrote:
Okay -_- So for those of you who don't like wall posts I will make my stance simple. Most of my points on GB could happen as either town or mafia. Town can flip their reads on a gut read (odd that the one it protects is scum, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything) to someone instead of focusing on genuinely scummy behavior. Town can digress into a "town only gives presents to town" WIFOM for no reason. Town can speculate on set-ups and base scum reads on that. Town can tunnel. All of these things together look worse...or at least make the player look like a bad town player...but there are a couple things that are scum-motivated that have no town motivation at all:

- Continually calling for mass claiming in an open set-up where scum has 2-3KSs.Or calling for certain individuals to claim (carolers, those who were roleblocked, vet)

- Attempting to take credit for a lynch when he did not catch the lie, and furthermore did not vote for the player being lynched, when he clearly had enough time to do so. His defense that he was trying to see who would jump onto a third train was never followed through on...he is back on his old soapbox today.

^ There are no reasons that these are town behaviors. Plain and simple. You can ignore everything else and write it off as a pisspoor town player, but there are no reasons for a town player to do these two things.

HF may well be scum, I don't know. But I haven't seen him do scummy things, and I have seen GB do a multitude. Again, if you want to base your lynch decisions on WIFOM, presents, and set-up speculation...be my guest. Don't be surprised if it comes back to bite you in the arse though.

On December 19 2014 00:30 Holyflare wrote:
rsoul's case on gb has been posted for like a cycle and a half already so all he did was repost what he's already said and it somehow suddenly convinced you from voting templar to voting gb

On December 19 2014 00:26 Holyflare wrote:
literally everything in my case makes him mafia unless you can prove that there is towny motivation behind it so to have a difference in care of who to vote is, like vivax said, fucking weird

On December 19 2014 00:58 Vivax wrote:
Xatalos is clearly squirming after saying that the only reason he prefers GB is that he's pushing scum agenda "more openly", cause it's very important to put an end to his poisonous thread influence while templar doesn't do anything of the sort and only scums in silence, so he deserves to live a bit longer (lol).

Xata if you were town it would be in your best interest to vote Templar cause he's likely to gain more traction than GB which would also prevent your townread HF from being lynched, and yet now you put it like you have reasons to believe one is more likely scum than the other??? What's giving you the feel that Templar could be town?

Nothing, but ... (insert your excuse here)