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On December 21 2014 23:01 rsoultin wrote:@ Xata Could you please give me reads on Oats, Slam and GB? @ GB Same, only Oats, Slam and Xata? The same way Slam gave them is fine, really. Doesn't have to be fancy at all. Also, I know the following isn't like a major shocker or anything given the fit and the tunnel vision this dude has, but he can't even be assed to make a post in the thread at all? Not even just a, you guys stupid; vote HF? I saw him do this yesterday, but held off just in case he planned on making a follow-up post in here.
Oats: scum lean based on overwhelming disinterest towards scumhunting (or pretty much anything)
Slam: no idea, I can't really read him well
GB: scum lean based on previously mentioned reasons
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On December 21 2014 23:06 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2014 22:58 Xatalos wrote:
Oh, it might even be LYLO right now? Then I think we definitely shouldn't lynch for "information" or something equally stupid. Let's just lynch the player with the highest chance of flipping scum. Probably Templar... But luckily there's still quite a bit of time left to make that decision. We've got 12 players still. If it's LYLO that's a shit ton of scum in the wings. Though I will say it doesn't look like anyone's lynching for "information" but lian. What do you think of FF? I'm a fan of the most simple explanation theory, which means either you were protected/RBd and are actually scum...or he is scum and was RBd last night, and is trying to throw the blame on someone else. If he's town, there is no reason for him to lie about who he took a shot at.
Yeah I guess it might not be LYLO yet (unless there's 4 scum left?).
Hm. I think that FF was most likely RB'd if he's town (the only clear "role" to RB after all) and it's possible that he was also RB'd as scum, although it's less likely. Either way I don't see how this makes me scum?
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On December 21 2014 23:27 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2014 07:58 Trfel wrote:Ok, a few thoughts at the end of the night. I'm not going to go super deep into this, since the nightkills do provide information that can be useful, but here's my thinking. I'm also not going to call someone super scummy or clean right before a bunch of new information comes out, for obvious reasons. VivaxVivax seems... strange. I'm not really sure what to make of it. The first thing to note is, he has been making a lot of reads. From looking at his filter, here's what I found. + Show Spoiler [Vivax's Reads] +suspicious of 27ninjabunnies
suspicious of ritoky
suspicious of Tubesock
suspicious of KelsierSC
suspicious of Xatalos
suspicious of rsoultin
no longer suspicious of Xatalos
suspicious of batsnacks
less suspicious of batsnacks
suspicious of Fecalfeast
suspicious of Trfel
suspicious of GlowingBear
suspicious of The_Templar
suspicious of Oatsmaster
suspicious of Holyflare
suspicious of Xatalos I think that this is just a playstyle, and not a sign of being mafia. It's not good or bad. Also, his reads are all well-explained and what he is doing makes sense to me. Really, I don't see any signs of him being scum here. Except, his play leading up to the day 2 lynch deadline has felt a bit off to me. On page 120, GlowingBear posts Part 2 of his case on Holyflare. The full case summary is posted on page 121. On page 122, I post a case on KelsierSC. Vivax posts a few pages after this, but doesn't respond to either case. Then he mentions the Holyflare case on page 125 and says he is tempted to go for it, and then votes for Holyflare on page 126. No mention of the KelsierSC case at all, despite being suspicious of him earlier in the game. On page 129, I post a response to GlowingBear's case, hoping for a response from one of the GlowingBear voters. Vivax posts like this: On December 14 2014 07:34 Vivax wrote:
Lynch HF On December 14 2014 07:41 Vivax wrote:On December 14 2014 07:35 Trfel wrote:On December 14 2014 07:34 Vivax wrote:
Lynch HF I would love to. Please tell me why, other than linking GlowingBear's post. Cause I read his post and it convinced me, nothing else really. No reference at all to the KelsierSC case, no original reasons for lynching Holyflare, no response to the criticism I presented of the Holyflare case, no sign of the critical thinking and analytical Vivax that I saw throughout the rest of the game. The only town explanation I can come up with for Vivax is that he was reading sporadically and missed my repeated questions on GlowingBear's case, and really was that convinced by GlowingBear's case that he didn't mention the KelsierSC case in an attempt to gather support for lynching Holyflare instead. I'm very hesitant to call Vivax mafia for this. It's the only suspicious thing I see in his filter, while the rest of his play seems to be searching for mafia and being constructive. In the end I leave him at null/town, but he is definitely on my watch list. ______________________________________________________________________________________________ batsnacksIt's sort of the same thing for batsnacks. The fact that I tried to get batsnacks lynched last game for not providing scumreads and him ending up being town is still heavily in the back of my mind. So I'm not going to try and get a read on him, but here's some thoughts. Batsnacks makes an early read on Half the Sky, and his reasons for this read have been heavily criticized. I still think this read makes him seem a bit towny, but I could be wrong. His push on LightningStrike is good, too. Batsnacks clearly noticed that I posted a case on KelsierSC, and he put KelsierSC into his "would lynch" list. His vote remained on Holyflare, and he seemed desperate to get people to switch from KelsierSC to Holyflare. He never provided comments on the KelsierSC case, either. On December 14 2014 07:42 batsnacks wrote:On December 14 2014 07:41 Trfel wrote:
Switching to Holyflare because of a gut call. It's hard to explain. If someone really wants me to, I can try though. ^ ppl voting KSC ______________________________________________________________________________________________ GlowingBearI don't have a big read on GlowingBear yet. I am just including him here because he pushed on Holyflare over KelsierSC, and it would seem incomplete if I mentioned Vivax and batsnacks without mentioning GlowingBear. The main reason I find GlowingBear's push on Holyflare instead of KelsierSC less suspicious than the two previous cases is that GlowingBear acknowledged the KelsierSC case and said that he was fine with a KelsierSC lynch. ______________________________________________________________________________________________ FecalfeastI've been defending Fecalfeast a bit throughout day 2. I suppose that was the first controversial read I made all game, since I only started seriously being suspicious of KelsierSC midway through day 2. Anyway, I maintain that Fecalfeast's play seems to be poor town instead of inactive mafia. He should be on a relatively short leash, though.______________________________________________________________________________________________ sickluckerI said I wouldn't make meta reads. Well, here's a meta read. The main reason is because I tend to have trouble understanding sicklucker's arguments, so I usually somewhat ignore him. Usually, sicklucker is constantly posting and providing tons of different thoughts. Last game, he said that he likes to make fast reads and he was making reads all over the place. One example of that is when I posted a long post on batsnacks, sicklucker responded “I haven't read your post yet, but you are so town for writing that up”. This game, he has definitely done weird things and made a lot of posts, but they are all related to setup, presents, and roles. Very few reads. I don't think it makes sicklucker scum, but I don't see him as a sure town like some other people do. ______________________________________________________________________________________________ Then there's the arguments between Vivax and Xatalos, and GlowingBear and Holyflare. I haven't put enough time into the recent development of those cases, so I don't feel that I have a right to offer an opinion of those cases at the moment. I hope to look heavily into those tomorrow. In case I die, good luck and happy scumhunting! ... That really does not look like a green check. I mean, that really, really looks like a poor assumption we all made as a thread. Why would he say anything about keeping FF on a short leash if he thought he was town?
Hm. My first thought was he'd word it that way to confuse the scum bluehunters, but on the other hand, he posted that at the *end of the night* when it was too late to change anything. So it's possible that you're correct.......
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On December 21 2014 23:37 Half the Sky wrote:
Xatalos, Ockham's razor. There were what, at least six people scumreading you after N4? I don't see a reason to doubt FF, but I've been townreading him since end of D2. It is possible but statistically unlikely he is the godfather.
But others have brought points against you too. And leaving out GB's case, Vivax had flipped town, so now we know the stuff he said would tend to be more reliable.
Town != correct. Vivax even scumread you last night so it's hard to imagine you're sheeping his opinions... And he was a role so it's not a wonder to get killed. And what case from GB? I don't think he made his case yet.
Even without assuming that FF is GF or that we misunderstood Trfel, there are several ways that both me and FF could be town (for example: FF got roleblocked or I was attacked or scum attacked a Veteran).
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On December 21 2014 23:39 GlowingBear wrote:
This is the laziest town ever, including me. I didn't see anybody trying to filter dive the scums to find out associations.
Xat, inactivity is not really the problem. The problem is that I can't see you dropping your thoughts clearly in the thread or actually trying to solve the game like I'm used to see you doing. I remember perfectly me getting all crazy in you for you saying "If he isn't town, he is scum", lol. This was after a long description of your thought process. I don't see any of these things in your filter. Actually, I see more rough, objective reads, without too many stream of thoughts, which, in my experience, isn't your usual play.
@Rsoultin:
Oats: probably scum due to inactivity. If town is degladiating themselves, scum will usually sit back and let town die. This image fits oats behaviour. This is how scum usually plays big games. More than this, oats tends to be more contributive, actually calling people scum and going for it. I usually see oats doing this as town: "you're stupid, you're wrong, because of this." In this game, he is just saying "you're stupid, you're wrong". He says everything me and Vivax speak of is convoluted, but then agrees with Vivax list. I have yet to understand he logic behind this.
I've explained Xat on the first paragraph.
Slam: I don't know man. I saw things that makes me believe slam is town. But I think slam would be more involved in the game when it's LYLO, like he was in Avogadro Mafia. The worst part now is that he is clearly reading the thread, as you ask him for reads and he answers, but doesn't provide reasoning. This is a sign that slam may be mafia. So I'm going from town to null on him.
Well, my playstyle fluctuates too. A heavy factor in this game is that I can't just spam the thread when I have a post limit.
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On December 22 2014 00:23 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2014 00:18 Xatalos wrote:On December 21 2014 23:06 rsoultin wrote:On December 21 2014 22:58 Xatalos wrote:
Oh, it might even be LYLO right now? Then I think we definitely shouldn't lynch for "information" or something equally stupid. Let's just lynch the player with the highest chance of flipping scum. Probably Templar... But luckily there's still quite a bit of time left to make that decision. We've got 12 players still. If it's LYLO that's a shit ton of scum in the wings. Though I will say it doesn't look like anyone's lynching for "information" but lian. What do you think of FF? I'm a fan of the most simple explanation theory, which means either you were protected/RBd and are actually scum...or he is scum and was RBd last night, and is trying to throw the blame on someone else. If he's town, there is no reason for him to lie about who he took a shot at. Yeah I guess it might not be LYLO yet (unless there's 4 scum left?). Hm. I think that FF was most likely RB'd if he's town (the only clear "role" to RB after all) and it's possible that he was also RB'd as scum, although it's less likely. Either way I don't see how this makes me scum? We had one NK last night and FF claimed to try to shoot you. My two versions were the simplest ones, nigella attempting to "block/save" you would negate his shot and yours if you were scum. A roleblocker on a scum FF would also explain the night actions without assuming multiple role interactions. There are of course other possibilities involving multiple role interactions, but statistically it's more unlikely the more roles you assume were involved in night actions.
Well, I think FF being RB'd is the most likely scenario. I guess it's more obvious to me since it's quite a bit more likely than me being saved, I'd think :D
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On December 22 2014 00:33 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2014 00:31 Xatalos wrote:On December 21 2014 23:39 GlowingBear wrote:
This is the laziest town ever, including me. I didn't see anybody trying to filter dive the scums to find out associations.
Xat, inactivity is not really the problem. The problem is that I can't see you dropping your thoughts clearly in the thread or actually trying to solve the game like I'm used to see you doing. I remember perfectly me getting all crazy in you for you saying "If he isn't town, he is scum", lol. This was after a long description of your thought process. I don't see any of these things in your filter. Actually, I see more rough, objective reads, without too many stream of thoughts, which, in my experience, isn't your usual play.
@Rsoultin:
Oats: probably scum due to inactivity. If town is degladiating themselves, scum will usually sit back and let town die. This image fits oats behaviour. This is how scum usually plays big games. More than this, oats tends to be more contributive, actually calling people scum and going for it. I usually see oats doing this as town: "you're stupid, you're wrong, because of this." In this game, he is just saying "you're stupid, you're wrong". He says everything me and Vivax speak of is convoluted, but then agrees with Vivax list. I have yet to understand he logic behind this.
I've explained Xat on the first paragraph.
Slam: I don't know man. I saw things that makes me believe slam is town. But I think slam would be more involved in the game when it's LYLO, like he was in Avogadro Mafia. The worst part now is that he is clearly reading the thread, as you ask him for reads and he answers, but doesn't provide reasoning. This is a sign that slam may be mafia. So I'm going from town to null on him. Well, my playstyle fluctuates too. A heavy factor in this game is that I can't just spam the thread when I have a post limit. Again, I'm not talking about level of activity. I'm talking about the way you're writing your posts or the way you're approaching the game, which is different from the way I'm used to see you doing.
If you mean I'm more collected/focused, that's probably true. The post limits are the biggest reason for that I'd say.
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On December 22 2014 00:33 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2014 00:29 Xatalos wrote:
And what case from GB? I don't think he made his case yet. Maybe not formal case, but this is the post I was referring to, but I had said before this anyway. Show nested quote +On December 21 2014 09:47 GlowingBear wrote:
Aaaaaaand I'm drunk.
Alright, listen.
We've discuss a lot about HF and we couldn't get him lynched easily. We almost said everything that has to be said about him. I don't think we should waste more breath about him TODAY. We have to catch the other scum.
By the way, is there someone firmly believing that HF is town? This is important so please answer me.
Now, I believe we should follow Vivax reads because (1) I agreed with him and (2) we now know he is confirmed town.
Considering this, I believe we should lynch Xatalos
Why Xatalos instead of oats? Because he wasn't firmly mafia read by Vivax, because he was town read by obi, and because HF, one possible scum, also list him as mafia. I'm aware HF also lists Xatalos, but there are these two that didn't cite/townreads oats. I don't want to risk the game on him yet.
I don't believe nigella would protect FF because he could be godfather and I don't believe nigella would block Xatalos because he wasn't actually the top scumread. But I really think nigella would try to roleblock a possible mafia because top town was Vivax at that moment.
I also want you to remember that ff is only SOFT CONFIRMED, because Santa didn't explicitly said he had a green check.
Nigella, don't out anymore. You'll be important night5, specially if we lynch scum and if you roleblock one mafia.
Like, consider this: if there is only 3 scum left and we lynch one now, you'll try to roleblock a possible mafia and if only one kp goes through the night, you have a confirmed mafia.
So, lynch Xatalos.
So you're willing to throw away everything else for some highly speculative night action analysis?
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On December 22 2014 00:40 sicklucker wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2014 00:32 rsoultin wrote:
There's also the consideration that if scum is roleblocking FF, assuming they have a roleblocker which we don't know for sure (thank you for bringing up the vet HTS), then since FF was being pretty much universally townread he'd be a good KS I would think. So the last "simple" scenario is nigella RBing/saving him...
But here he is pre-claiming a present again, and claiming the KS again, and scum already knows that no one will counterclaim the KS or they would have when ritoky first claimed. So it's really quite possible for FF to be scum here, and that's why I'm asking if anyone's townreading him for anything but trfel's statement right before he died.
@Xata...I'm not saying it's not possible that you can't both be town. I am saying that I favor simple explanations over complex ones. Regardless, I think it would be foolish not to look into FF at all. Well for one he wasint one of five idiots who voted out an obvious town yesterday????. Like we dont worry about ff unless we think the last mafia is that specific role
Haha actually he started the wagon? :D
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Hm. Trfel really had no other townreads? I guess I might need to read through his filter later.... If that's true, then it's quite a bit more likely that FF was a check.
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Well, I ended up reading through Trfel's filter anyway. I think it's about 90% likely that he greenchecked Fecalfeast. He never once mentions the possibility of FF being scum after D2 starts and he even partly bases the KSC case on the assumption that KSC is town. So most likely FF is town or GF.
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He had to check someone though? And FF seems like the most likely candidate?
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On December 22 2014 11:21 GlowingBear wrote:So, if we talk about town Xatalos, we are mostly talking about an absurd filter length. But more than filter length, Xatalos is a guy who keeps his thoughts in the thread, not in his mind, and is constantly trying to solve the game. I've picked up a game where we played together, it was Guilty Mini Mafia. This is a post he had on his second page of filter: + Show Spoiler +On August 22 2014 19:17 Xatalos wrote:
Damdred -1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)?
raynpelikoneet -1 Robik made a funny point about the way how rayn would have stayed up as town (and he even said that he would stay for the deadline too??) haha - started really aggressive after that, nothing really special to say about that, just a bit of an uncomfortable feeling with the not posting at night despite apparently staying up around the deadline... and somehow his reads feel a bit too certain/forced? let's just say null with some concern for now
Hapahauli 0
justanothertownie 0
Onegu 0
VayneAuthority 0
IAmRobik 1 Casually townreading people etc. just feels a bit towny, probably
KelsierSC 1 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe
yamato77 1 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town?
turtlevine 2 obvious smurf... pretty funny/constructive opening post, townish feels I guess
GlowingBear 4 a LOT less awkward than in the Arnie game IMO, so town? yeah seems pretty natural at posting overall, and constructive, so towntown
WaveOfShadow 4 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now You see, he is someone who has reads on a lot of people and contributes with discussion by exteriorising them. More than that, he takes original stances on people. Here is another post by Xatalos on day 1: + Show Spoiler +On August 23 2014 00:08 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 23:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So far were doing good.
We are not lynching me, KSC, JAT or Robik in any case. Because we are town.
Hapa and Onge have not postesd yet so there is at least one scum in active players.
I am leaning scum on Wave and Glowingbear, strongly.
Is there anyone who thinks they are town? KSC - yeah probably town, really feels like he believes his own ideas and pushes them strongly without care for how he's viewed as a result jat - no idea, how do you townread him so strongly? he had a humongous filter as scum earlier so not activity... and he immediately jumped to discredit me without calling me scum when you called me scum... I just can't feel the strong townread so help me here Robik - not as sure as last game but yeah leaning town for being pretty active and posting stuff you - still not sure, I think you're very capable of doing everything you've done so far as scum so hard to townread you WOS - my earlier townread on him was a bit faulty so I don't really anyhow heavily townread him anymore, why is he scum though? GB - I don't necessarily think he's town anymore, his weird connection read on me+WOS, curiousness about someone townreading him, and overall awkward posts lately don't look good... could be scum I guess You see, he is already giving reads on a lot of people. But more than this: he is contributing without being asked to contribute. Take a look at the nested quote. Rayn isn't directing a question towards Xatalos. Xatalos is posting this because he wanted to contribute, he wanted to discuss his reads. I'll go ahead into later days to show you that he keeps the "solving the game" stance throughout the whole thread: + Show Spoiler +On August 27 2014 01:15 Xatalos wrote:
Still weird that he refused to vote for Robik when 1) he claimed to follow jat's lead and jat voted for Robik 2) he didn't have any real opinion of Robik (except "Robik being Robik") and didn't exactly townread me, but agreed with me a lot and didn't seem to at least suspect me. On August 26 2014 02:17 Xatalos wrote:
Actually I just had a thought. In the Arnie game Damdred constantly asked me these little questions to share my reads more / make me more readable. Damdred's play here reminds me a lot of that. So yeah, I don't want to lynch Damdred today. On August 26 2014 02:50 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2014 02:32 KelsierSC wrote:
Xat Could you give me a condensed version of how you read the game right now after the night kills and the VA claim? Here are my "condensed" reads >.> VayneAuthority -2 not really a fan of his posts so far, I think someone said that he's pretty serious as scum and trolly as town? serious so far... seems to focus only on survival + made a rather dubious roleclaim claimed JOAT early on D2 "to survive" Onegu -1 AFK and still catching up :/ - entered the game constructively and tried to figure out the game, probably town... Hapa made good points about him being reckless to push rayn as scum + showing suspicion towards a Mason claim haha - well hasn't done much lately so dropped points - rayn flipping town puts him into worse light especially since he just threw his vote on rayn and disappeared Damdred 1 Pretty forgettable posts so far instead of awkward like last time.... scum(my)? - actually his more recent posts mirror my thoughts so town? - rayn made a decent(ish) point about him perhaps being SK since he's a bit forgettable/passive??? and also looked for bluetells earlier... but still not a D1 lynch - worst D1 deadline vote, not good - actually his little questions to me remind a lot of the Arnie game so rather wait and see than lynch for now, feels like potentially town Hapahauli 2 entered with great posts on rayn & me, quite confident that he's town - then dropped rayn suddenly, weird, possible scum after all? dunno, doesn't feel like a good D1 lynch anyway - went on to lynch Mafia GF which makes him a lot more towny - possible SK still considering rayn NK? KelsierSC 3 "tryhardish" opening post that is actually fluff - and the theme continues.... :/ ugh so awkward, but also confrontational, so maybe just awkwardly tryhard? - really eager to lynch "useless" people ugh..? what is this... well continues to antagonize people so prolly town maybe? dunno... well seems so tryhard that I guess town maybe... yeah I guess so - well he's been defending rayn and pushing me with very forced reasons so not confident about him being town anymore (though he'd be very stupid if he's scum with rayn) - well more likely town still, very fearless if scum WaveOfShadow 3 Reveals willingly which players he's confident in reading and responds to Kelsier in a pretty casual/townish(?) way - really casual posting style so town lean for now - really active/chatty in Championship as scum though so could be scum too - but he's still pretty happily participating in the discussion and felt genuinely frustrated at some point so town after all? - away for a lot of crucial discussion which drops his points by one - well he's come back to the thread and his posts seem pretty good lately - his thoughts resonated with my thoughts around deadline quite a bit which is good yamato77 3 said nothing noteworthy yet - well started making some jokey posts so town? very lurky though which is scummy for him - re-entered the thread with vengeance and has been very townish, I'd say even obvtown level pretty much - Hapa made some good points about him lacking confidence and going on lurking periods though - still (actively?) lurking and posting here and there... gave up exactly like in the PYP game ALERT ALERT - went on to vote & kill Robik though and started actually doing stuff so probably town after all Look at how he has opinion on everybody and shares it with everyone. Look at how he tried to see things from people's perspective. Look at how he has a thought and posts it in the thread to share his opinion with everybody. This is town Xatalos. ************** Mafia Xatalos is determined by suing the necessary, asking questions, and not really having original thoughts and stances. Moreover, he doesn't have an overall view of the game. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 06:49 Xatalos wrote:
Kushm4sta, by the way, I hope you're planning to play this game seriously. I've witnessed several games that you've partly ruined by lurking or worse.
If you're scum, you can get policy lynched. That's fine. High level of certainty/aggressiveness, uncommon on his townplay described above. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 07:43 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie Well, that game is special in the sense that it started during night and nights were PM-only within given Houses. I definitely put pressure on gumshoe and Grackaroni during the night, I'd say. And I was relatively aggressive during the first day, as well. Probably not as aggressive as here, I agree. Do you mean that passive = townish and aggressive/proactive = scummy? Or what? I can't really see myself playing like this as scum. It'd have to be pretty carefully crafted at least. Too defensive when inquired, lacking deep reads on people. + Show Spoiler +On December 10 2013 08:09 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 08:01 Holyflare wrote:On December 10 2013 07:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:36 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. In my opinion natural scum play is to stay low, especially on day 1, the town tends to self destruct anyways day 1. This whole entire "starting shit" strat is actually pretty good, even though it is counterintuitive to the idea of trying to not draw attention. Thus I assumed this strat is not very obvious, especially since I personally never considered it. This is all pure speculation. Something more grounded is that Xatalos is definably acting very different from before, and in my eyes less of a townie I don't feel like Xatalos put himself in the spotlight as much as trying to put others in the spotlight. Corazon put himself in the spotlight without any scum gain. When you look at his post from a scum point of view, it doesn't make sense for them to make it. I can see a scum agenda behind Xatalos' posts. That said, I do like his view on my pressure on him in that it was nuanced rather than trying to score town points. The rest of the day should provide more information. On December 10 2013 07:36 Holyflare wrote:Nobody going to discuss cora's mindset or are you going to dismiss it outright for xantos discussion some more? On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. Given you quoted me I take it you'd like a response from me? I don't find Corazon scummy at this point in time because he drew attention to himself without any scum benefit. Is it not also a scum mindset to heavily defend themselves when attacked, unnaturally so? Also while defending themselves to then deflect upon another person? Why are you only looking for the people that are "starting shit"? I only know a few scum that play that way. Have you any scum meta on Xatalos that suggests he plays like he is? I don't like how you're so dismissive over cora without discussion when with Xantos you skim the filters to discuss him further. On December 10 2013 06:52 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Holy, I don't feel like his response is that different. I also don't think he'd put himself out there so much at the start of the game. No reason to draw attention to yourself like that as scum. On December 10 2013 07:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:21 LSB wrote:On December 10 2013 07:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On December 10 2013 07:17 LSB wrote:
I think we need to calm down. My "townie on townie day 1 shitstorm" sense is tingling.
That speaking, oddly enough it does encourage a Xatalos lynch Whom do you feel are townies from this and why? It hasn't really been one on one. It's been HF and Xatalos against Cora, and myself, Alakaslam and you against Xatalos. If you feel it's townie on townie, then you'd think Xatalos was town. So far I think I am townie, I haven't really thought past that. I just don't think this day 1 attitude is gonna be very productive. The whole entire Xatalos suspicion does require a meta read on Xatalos to see if he is brilliant enough to try for the plan on day 1, or does he just play like this. I just skimmed through the filter he linked and I don't think it looks like the start of this game at all. He's far more aggressive here. What were you trying to say exactly with your initial post if you didn't mean to give anyone a town read but yourself? I'm confused. I don't think a plan other than "starting shit" is required for scum. That's always a good thing. Look at the difference between these two points - on the one hand (cora) is dismissed by saying "I don't think scum plays that way" whereas the second (Xatalos) is "I have skimmed it briefly and think it's different because X,Y,Z. Question, question. _____________________________ In regards to the point that you made about cora, I don't think he's "putting himself out there" like you suggest, he said that he couldn't dedicate some time towards the game but would still post actively and got picked up on it and was like OMGNUUWRONGRAWRRR!!!!!! and then didn't discuss why with people further or indicate that he had reads on other people because of what happened. He left the thread and then returned when people started mentioning Xatalos and piggybacked upon that with no new reasoning other than what people had said before. He mentions how people in the thread were piggybacking previously (me, etc.) and had qualms with them but then does the same thing here: On December 10 2013 07:10 Corazon wrote:
I do feel like Slam was right as well. If Xatalos was using good logic and pushing me like a townie, I wouldn't have a problem with him. However, he is using faulty logic on purpose and trying to pass it off as correct when in fact his conclusions only come about because he needs to fake pressure on me. This is contradictary with his previous approach of disliking people that piggybacking and is essentially +1ing another players points. Take this in B2B for example, people had a bad read on him and he DISCUSSED why it was bad: On November 21 2013 01:00 Corazon wrote:
When did I say that sciberia was bad town? Please find a post where I said he was bad town.
I didn't vote for sciberia because 0% of wagons in the first 2 hours of a game actually get to the deadline? None. What is the point of vote-jumping? It just allows people to skim my cases once they see the bold vote and only really look at it once it's my turn to be under the gun. Voting for people at this stage is pretty useless because it's not going to get a lynch going. I guarantee you that our reads and opinions are going to change before the deadline and it's useless to lock yourself in (or at least making a statement saying you are going to) 2 hours into a game.
That case was confirmation bias because you took 1-2 decent points about me (which alone are not enough to justify a vote or my lynching) and then supplemented them with saying "Corazon is doing stuff that he always does in every game, he has to be scum for it in this one". He mentions WHY the case was bad etc etc, discusses it and outlines why he thinks it was bad croming from X player. Where is that here? It was a dissmissal of a case from me and a sheep onto townish consesus Xatalos. __________________________________________ I don't like how these things are most definitely brushed off for simplicity that "I don't think scum do this" when there is a body of evidence that suggests a player does not play like this. Vote Cora for best lynch. These are definitely some good points. It's surely premature to declare Corazon as today's lynch, but it would be a good pick in the current situation. I dislike Artanis's dismissal of Corazon's play as well, but I doubt Artanis and Corazon would be scum together. It would seem risky to make a connection like that. That's WIFOM, though. Commenting others ideas without actually bringing his own to the table. Says something wishy washy without risking himself with his reads ********* Xatalos is playing much more like his scum game than his town game here. This is specific and out of context, but illustrates what I'm saying: + Show Spoiler +On December 18 2014 23:31 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 23:22 rsoultin wrote:
Okay -_- So for those of you who don't like wall posts I will make my stance simple. Most of my points on GB could happen as either town or mafia. Town can flip their reads on a gut read (odd that the one it protects is scum, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything) to someone instead of focusing on genuinely scummy behavior. Town can digress into a "town only gives presents to town" WIFOM for no reason. Town can speculate on set-ups and base scum reads on that. Town can tunnel. All of these things together look worse...or at least make the player look like a bad town player...but there are a couple things that are scum-motivated that have no town motivation at all:
- Continually calling for mass claiming in an open set-up where scum has 2-3KSs.Or calling for certain individuals to claim (carolers, those who were roleblocked, vet)
- Attempting to take credit for a lynch when he did not catch the lie, and furthermore did not vote for the player being lynched, when he clearly had enough time to do so. His defense that he was trying to see who would jump onto a third train was never followed through on...he is back on his old soapbox today.
^ There are no reasons that these are town behaviors. Plain and simple. You can ignore everything else and write it off as a pisspoor town player, but there are no reasons for a town player to do these two things.
HF may well be scum, I don't know. But I haven't seen him do scummy things, and I have seen GB do a multitude. Again, if you want to base your lynch decisions on WIFOM, presents, and set-up speculation...be my guest. Don't be surprised if it comes back to bite you in the arse though. Yeah I agree. For both of those the scum motivation is strong and the town motivation is non-existent. I like Templar as scum too, though. But at least he hasn't actively pushed scum agenda. ##Vote GlowingBear This is Xat agreeing with an idea which is not his own, going against a townie, which he had no deep read or strong push. He also doesn't have any list post like I've brought from Guilty Mini Mafia. (Town game: Guilty Mini Mafia Scum game: Titanic II)(
Heh, this would be a decent case if not for a couple of errors...
1) The town game you're looking at is my most active game ever. It's a bit unfair to compare that to any of my other games... Especially when there are town games where my activity levels are similar to this game (for example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/440546-golden-sun-the-lost-age-mafia-djinn-edition?user=Xatalos my activity there would actually be very low if not for all the fluff posts). There's also one earlier town game where my activity was less than in previously mentioned game, but I can't seem to find it anymore.
2) There's an easy reason for why my reads aren't as "super-transparent" in this game. I posted this already before the game started:
On December 08 2014 15:09 Xatalos wrote:
Oh, as a precaution: I won't be using the MafiaTools notes for this specific game regardless of my alignment. Just so that there won't be a policy lynch for that reason (lol)
Which means that I wouldn't be describing my reads quite as closely no matter my alignment. My greatly specific reads in that game had to do with my MafiaTools notes testing.
3) You can't really base an argument on yourself being town since that's all but clear...
4) As said previously, IRL stuff and post restrictions have limited my "stream of consciousness" style of posts. It's quite necessary to condense my posts just in case something surprising happens and there's a need to post a lot of posts at deadline, for example.
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What does auto even mean? Autopilot? If that's the case, then I don't think this game is quite at that point. Templar seems like the obvious lynch here, but after that we'll have to consider carefully since we're probably at least not far away from LYLO. Oats/GB seem like the most likely other scum. HTS *might* be scum, I guess, with her very blended in posting style... Probably not a lynch for today or tomorrow though.
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It's over. Well played HTS, you hid your role well. As a sidenote, the reason why we didn't kill you earlier was because you didn't say that you were townreading Vivax D1/N1. So well done.
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On December 23 2014 08:10 LightningStrike wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2014 08:09 Xatalos wrote:
It's over. Well played HTS, you hid your role well. As a sidenote, the reason why we didn't kill you earlier was because you didn't say that you were townreading Vivax D1/N1. So well done. You conceding?
Yes, it'd be practically impossible to win anymore. Just waiting for confirmation from my remaining buddy.
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Oh, almost forgot:
![[image loading]](http://s10.postimg.org/tet33yjdl/Baby_Seal_1.jpg)
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GB: your meta case was actually the best case against me all game. Far better than Vivax's arguments.
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I think HTS was probably town MVP. She successfully saved 3 townies: Vivax, rsoultin and Alakaslam. And confirmed me as scum. If we sniped her early, I think our chances to win would have been pretty high.
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EPT
