EPTI might be embarrassed if Robik was my coach :o
hi bunnies
(:3
Newbie Mini Mafia LV
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I might be embarrassed if Robik was my coach :o hi bunnies (:3 | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
It usually does not affect the death-flip, and it usually only makes the person appear as scum for one night. Does jailkeeper get a QT with the jailed person in forum mafia? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Before that, was posted 2/27 and started 3/5 so maybe not tooooooo long On April 09 2014 13:36 Cavalinho wrote: Play or I'm going to punch you in the ovaries. I admit I'm curious how you've ordered everyone on your policy kill list. :3 On April 09 2014 09:13 27ninjabunnies wrote: Yeah, can I just say, don't give me Rob as my coach. Jkjk  And hi Amiko! Are you from video mafia? Maybe it would be good to have a coach who knows both, I don't know ^^ | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
There is no medic in this setup, though, so.... yeah careful with the d1 cop claims :3 (I guess you could get the jailer to protect you, thereby ensuring you live but have no checks) | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Usually the D1 post has the host/cohost die :3 On the one hand, it's nice because none of the players are immediately eliminated from the game; everyone gets at least one day (well... unless there are dayvig shots). But, it can be harder to start because you don't have n0 kills or facial expressions to make gutreads on. Anyway I won't say much more than that, you'll figure some things out and your coach will help | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
/in (but please confirm with me!! If it starts too soon I can't do it, but I'm thinking it will take at least a week. On April 11 2014 09:43 27ninjabunnies wrote: That is one smart bunny! I shall recruit him/her into my army of ninjabunnies!!! But then you have to update your name to 28ninjabunnies :x | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I will hopefully be able to /in again if things are a little less busy next week! | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
HEEY Valenius you should get in this game :D Just don't join until next week so there is space for both of us  We can mislynch sqrt together :3 (sry sqrt) | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
/in :D | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
though if Promethelax isn't here maybe we have to modkill him | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Just maybe make sure you confirm people who did /in are still paying attention and will know the game may start I actually want to try coaching a lot ^^ but I don't think I have seen enough games to really do so yet. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Monday evening is ok with me Here's the only rule things I am not sure about- > Can a cop investigate someone who is jailed, or is the cop roleblocked by targeting someone jailed? > Does a roleblocked/jailed miller still return as scum to cop checks? > If mafia kills a vigi, does the vigi shot still go through that night? > If a framer frames the miller, does the miller return to checks as town? > If a framer frames a serial killer who is not investigation immune, how does the sk return for cop checks? > If a framer frames a godfather (lol) does the godfather return to checks as scum? I hope none of these come into play in the game at all :D | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
(I know miller usually doesn't know, but for this thread OP says miller is self aware) | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Since sk is not investigation immune, would normally be red, but is framed, so green? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Hold hope in your heart so that it can be smashed | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
(also whoever gets framer should frame cavalinho every night) | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Also @sqrt: I don't think the rules limit us to voting for players in the game, so Cav is still on the table :D | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I was just setting a trap for eden. GOT EM | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
(I edited this post though so now I'm dead with you so it's cool) | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
FYI I haven't played with Eden or Sqrt (I think of him as "square" since it's a great deal nicer than squirt) but I observed a prior game or two with them, so if you want to bug me about them that's fine! ninjabunnies / mtamburini do you know anyone else besides each other in this game? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@mtamburini: What do you think are the qualities of a good leader in mafia? @sqrt: When you said "last time" what were you referring to? (usually I can't remember anything like this, but I am pretty sure I know) | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On April 29 2014 11:12 sqrtofneg1 wrote: Oh, and I know akimo a bit as well. AKIMO | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@sqrt: Yep! I thought so. I was just wondering why you were looking at that thread when this game started? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@mysterymeat: I'm a little confused by your post, are you counterclaiming bunnies on being a girl? Remember there can be any number of the same role  | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@Yell0w: What do you think of ninjabunnies voting for you? As in, do you see that as a more town response by her? A more mafia response by her? Neutral? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
1) Seriousness of Votes Eden has thrown around a few votes, I think he’s changed more than anyone else so far. That isn’t inherently scummy to me – voting for pressure is fine. However, it makes me confused why his initial reaction to ninjabunnies’ pressure on yell0w was to question ninjabunnies rather than yell0w. I was thinking about voting for yell0w to add to the pressure (incidentally, it seemed like tamburini may have been as well – I’m not sure, but he did vote for yell0w after ninjabunnies removed her vote to at least keep pressure on). Basically, my point here is this: Given Eden’s willingness to vote without too much basis (on sweetfrost as a lurker, on epishade for his comments on yell0w, on dfs as a lurker) I would have expected him to be more initially supportive of pressure on yell0w from ninjabunnies. 2) Eden’s interaction with ninjabunnies To go a little deeper on Eden/ninjabunnies, Eden essentially asks ninjabunnies twice what she learned from the pressure on yell0w. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=13#255 and http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=14#272). Initially, he seems to see bunnies as genuine, but also says she didn’t really answer his question – that seems a little weird. When bunnies responds again, I feel like she didn’t fully answer his question (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21278572) – Eden had asked what she learned from the post, and she responded that bunnies avoided the question. In response, Eden names bunnies as his top town (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21278604) The point here is this: Eden asks ninjabunnies some questions regarding her pressure on yell0w. When ninjabunnies doesn’t fully respond, Eden calls her genuine (though he notes she didn't respond). When she doesn’t fully respond again, Eden calls ninjabunnies his top town. This feels weird because if I ask someone a question and they don’t respond I get interested. If I ask again and they don’t respond, I get suspicious. So, Eden's response to ninjabunnies felt off to me. -- I would especially like to know thoughts on these points from the players who just recently started posting. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I don't put much weight on his initial post, but there's a few followups that were odd to me. (1) Discussing Bunnies After bunnies puts some pressure on him, yell0w posts this: On April 29 2014 11:46 Yell0w wrote: @bunnies: Why would I need luck? Are you that convinced I'm mafia? Or is it that you just want to lynch me anyways for other reasons? Like, you actually are mafia and you're just jumping on any reason to lynch a town? He is sort of throwing around some ideas and suggests bunnies could be mafia. So, I asked him a question a little more directly on her pressure and his response was a lot more cagey: On April 29 2014 11:55 Yell0w wrote: I don't really know, she has a reasoning for it, she played with people who claimed mafia like that and ended up actually being mafia, but obviously it's flawed logic and anecdotal evidence, it's not because someone did it that me making a joke about being mafia means I'm mafia. But that fact that she has that reason makes me think she's not doing it as a mafia play, but obviously she might just have come up with it to make it seems that way, so I don't know. These posts have some consistency - neither seem sure what ninjabunnies' motives are. But, I feel like yell0w's first post reads as far more suspicious/unsure of ninjabunnies, whereas the second seems to be neutral/unsure. --- On April 29 2014 23:21 Sweetfrost wrote: I must agree that Yell0ws joking claims makes him a prime suspect. I feel he tries way to hard to convince everyone that he's not scum with his joking and sarcastic remarks. @Sweetfrost: How do you think yell0w viewed the points raised on him by ninjabunnies? Which comments do you feel are joking/sarcasting? Why do you think him joking around is indicative of him being mafia? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
 Basically the second point on yellow is just that it seems weird he has cleared both bunnies when he initially was not sure how to read the pressure on him. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I'll add this since we have players that are new or new to forum mafia. If there are masons, consider including some code that indicates who your mason partner is. It shouldn't be clearly detected, but should be fairly straightforward if it is pointed out. That way if one of you dies, the other can point to it if necessary to prove they are your mason teammate. For example, if I was mason with sqrt, I might write something like this into a random post I made and tell him about it: As sqrt wrote, mtamburini likely isn't amazing mafia... essentially, someone knows xyzxxzyzxyzxy. If you look at all the second letters, it spells sqrt is mason... if I was mason with sqrt and I was killed/lynched, sqrt can point to this post to semi-confirm he is my mason partner. This isn't the kind of trick you can do that easily in live/video mafia, so I wanted to bring it up in case it didn't occur to masons (if they are in the game). | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
We don't know how many mafia there are. In 13 player games, my guess would be 3 mafia, maybe also a serial killer. This is just based on knowing a popular 13-player setups is C9++ (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9%2B%2B#Setup_Determination) typically has 3 mafia. There's no certainty, though, since our setup is different (there's no medic/doctor, for instance). 2 mafia seems too few, though, so I would say 3>4>2. We can make some better guesses after n1 - based on the number of kills it can indicate if there's a vigilante or serial killer. You haven't talked much in thread yet, so here's a few questions: - Any thoughts on sweetfrost at this point in the game? - What is your current position on yell0w? Also, do you feel joking is indicative of being scum? Why? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I can try to reread the last game (probably not until this evening, though) and see what I think on the same point. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@Sqrt: Can you talk a little on why you feel epishade is clear? I don't feel like you seem to have commented on him at all aside from mentioning he looked through prior games. I do feel that point is towny so I agree with you somewhat there. But, what did you think about epishade's interactions with yell0w/bunnies? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On April 30 2014 02:39 Yell0w wrote: And about Eden, I was asked, though I was planning on talking about it a little bit anyways, he was actually the person I thought was the most suspicious last night, I just don't think his behavior made sense. I didn't have time to analyse it fully though and I will probably talk about it some more, but I am glad someone brought it up. If you are town make sure you follow through with this. In your filter I don't see Eden mentioned at all until this post, so if you felt he was suspicious you haven't shown it so far. I do think mtamburini may be overstating it a little with what he said here: On April 30 2014 00:17 mtamburini wrote: Your grasping so hard right now at things to take pressure off yourself and onto someone else for your slip ups it's laughable. But I think it is reasonable to think you want to shift things to Eden. I'll be out for a few hours :x | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@27ninjabunnies on Eden (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=20#393) This isn't too important but it should be a quick clarification so I'd appreciate it if you did. Eden says you didn't fully answer his question ("What was your reaction test, and what did it teach you about the game state?") + Show Spoiler + On April 29 2014 11:55 Eden1892 wrote: That you're new to forum mafia and have a chip on your shoulder. This doesn't tell me anything about either of your alignments. You seem genuine enough so far, so I suppose it's not all bad. But you didn't really answer my question. Maybe we're not referring to the same thing. What was your reaction test, and what did it teach you about the game state? I think these are the only posts you made between Eden raising the point (that you didn't answer his question) and him giving you a townread: (1) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=14#277 (2) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=14#280 (3) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=15#283 I think these posts answered the first part (what was your reaction test?). I don't feel you answered the second part (what did it teach you about the game state?). If you did, could you just quote it and bold the language for me? As an aside, I think your post @Epishade was directed to Epishade, not Eden as you said here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=20#393) unless I'm misunderstanding... thew post begins with you answering Epishade's scumread. Were you referring to another post? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@ninjabunnies re: Eden (pt 2) I did find the post where you were speaking to Epishade but meant to write to Eden. But, that isn't relevant to me because you made that post after Eden said you were his top town. @sqrt re: number of mafia Yeah, I can’t be certain but I think it’s a fair assumption to imagine there’s likely 3- 4 mafia. Your newbie game hosted by Balla was 9 players (2 mafia), but this is 13 players. With more town, you’ll (usually) see more scum to keep the game balanced. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I feel the core of suspicion on mtamburini is that he voted for yell0w after ninjabunnies moved off of him. From my point of view, that action is not scummy for these reasons: (1) I think ninjabunnies’ push on yell0w was fine. I mean, I wasn’t about to lynch yell0w for those early posts, but the inconsistency (even if it was a joke) was a fine thing to push him on. (2) tamburini voted for yell0w after bunnies moved her vote off of him. To me, this doesn’t really seem like a mafia play. I usually think scum would want to join a growing lynch to give it support, but here tamburini seems to want to re-open a case that doesn’t seem to have support. This doesn’t feel scummy to me. (3) I think tamburini had a fine reason to bring new pressure to yell0w. I don’t feel like yell0w asking “What was the ideal response?” is strongly scum indicative, but again, it’s something I feel pressure. That said, I need more from mtamburini's - his posts so far have been too focused on yell0w. If he wants to push a lynch, that’s fine, but I want to see some interactions with other players. If yell0w isn't the lynch, it'll be tough to draw new conclusions on mtamburini because he hasn't weighed in on some of the other players. @mtamburini: Please comment on Eden. In particular, could you discuss Eden’s case on yell0w? Also, is there anything about the timing of Eden's case on yell0w that strikes you as unusual? (I haven't reread enough to decide for sure whether there is, but I think there might be) | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On April 30 2014 13:47 27ninjabunnies wrote: @ Amiko As for my @Epishade post, it was directed to eden, but I messed up the names. Eden asked this And my response was this As for not answering the game state question, thank you for pointing that out, I actually didnt answer this. I must have looked over that question focusing on other things. I apologize. But as the game state has changed since then, imo, I shall nt revisit that, but I can elaborate on the game state now. Ok let me explain this better. Eden reads you as his top town on page 15 (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=15#284). The post you are referring to is on page 17. So, when Eden read you as his top town, he didn't have that answer from you yet. When he read you as his top town, he should have still thought you had not answered his question. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I don't really call people "clear" unless I feel they are proven town. Rather, I will just comment on who I don't want to lynch today, some of that is because people seem townie. I do not think I would not lynch the following players today: bunnies: I thought the early push on yell0w was fine, and the subsequent questions on Epishade and mtamburini felt like things I would ask. Responses seem good, and I like that she is reading other posts to try to clarify things. Feel good about her as town right now, not a d1 lynch for me. sqrt: Yeah, you're in this one buddy - my concern on your play is that although you have developed some players as potential scumreads, I don't see you strongly pushing on those players yet. However, you've been active in the game, and responsive. So, you are not a lynch for me day 1. That said, some of your reads are still weird to me.I thought someone asked this but rereading I was confused- @sqrt: How did you see meat as town? I feel like he posted next to nothing when you read him Epishade: Epishade is less town to me than sqrt or bunnies, but right now I don't think I would want to lynch him. I felt his early defense was reasonable... I feel he focused a little too much time on yell0w, but it seemed fine given that the thread has given so much attention to yell0w. Moving forward, I'd like to see epishade focus tamburini more if tamburini is his highest scumread, I may reevaluate based on how he goes.. I can't say I have a well-based townread on other players yet. I'll try to take a better look at dfs/ritoky/ashwtini/sweetfrost - these players have given some posts but not enough to stick out in my mind beyond that (in contrast to other players have given posts that I know are insufficient to give reads like meat). I think when I read ritoky I felt good about his posts (even though he scumread epishade), but I am getting a little too sleepy to adequately think through them. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On April 30 2014 14:13 27ninjabunnies wrote: @Amiko So are you saying he is scummy for calling me town, even if I didn't fully answer his question? I'm actually not entirely sure where this conversation stemmed from, or where you are trying to go with this questioning. Maybe I have missed something from your posts, and I apologize. It is pretty late, and I shall be hitting the bed soon. I know tomorrow, we need to make a lynch. Hopefully we will see more posts from the lurkers. As of now, I'll try and post here and there if need be. Yes - that was one of the two points I raised on him earlier (the other was regarding his voting). It was important for me to understand you on this because if you had answered Eden fully, it would mean one of my points was invalid (and make me feel better about Eden). Anyway, Eden did post a response to it so I'm content to move to other points for now, I think I need to go through his case on yell0w but I would like to see mtamburini to post on it, first. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On April 30 2014 14:40 Yell0w wrote: @amiko So who are your scumreads? Is it still me and Eden? Yes, though I'd say sweetfrost is more scummy and you are less scummy than the last time I mentioned it. My feelings on Eden/mtamburini depend a little on mtamburini's reads on Eden, so I can get back to you on that maybe. I am somewhat willing to vote off MysteryMeat... if I knew we had a vigilante, I'd much prefer him as a vigi-shot to a lynch, though. I am okay with him dying because if he's following the thread and has nothing to comment on, I think he is not useful. There's certainly things to talk about - there has been suspicion on quite a few players and he hasn't weighed in. I'd prefer a vig-shot him to lynching just because I think lynching sweetfrost/yell0w/eden is more likely to give information (which might help inform town night actions). I don't know if we don't have a vigilante, though, so lynching him is acceptable to me, mostly as a policy lynch. I haven't given adequate time to dfs/ritoky/ashwtini/dravernor so that'll be my goal for tomorrow, I think. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On April 30 2014 14:41 Eden1892 wrote: I didn't phrase that as precisely as I'd have liked. What I meant is that you were already suspecting him, and so your test was designed with an innate bias toward finding him suspicious. It's a moot point now, obviously I found Yell0w suspicious anyway in the end and I'm satisfied with your play for the moment. Amiko, I like the precision of your questions, but where are they going? I can give examples: - I asked sqrt about his prior game because I figured if he was looking at his prior game, it might be to copy his town meta. - I asked sqrt about his reads on epishade and meat because I felt he didn't provide an adequate explanation for those reads so I want to see if he has one. I felt sqrt didn't provide much justifications for his reads in his prior games and it was one reason he got mislynched, so I want to ensure I question him on his reads to understand his play better. - I asked mtamburini about leadership qualities to see if he would follow through with the descriptions he gave through the game. Not likely to be something worth revisiting for a day or two - I asked mtamburini to comment on your case on yell0w because I have some questions on mtamburini's alignment and the two of you have indirect but similar plays this game when it pertains to yell0w. - I asked bunnies about whether town needs a leader because she knows tamburini and commented on it, and (personally) I feel leaders are more important in video/in-person mafia where only one person can talk at a time. - I asked yell0w about his thoughts on ninjabunnies to follow up on his confusion re: her push onto him. Initially he suggested she was scum, but when I pushed him he seemed to back away and say he wasn't sure, it could be town or scum. I think he did the same thing with you, Eden, I'd have to check to make sure. etc etc. Some questions are to get people I feel aren't talking into the game (as with questions to ashwtini and sweetfrost) | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Dravenor hasn’t posted much and I feel like he has some weird comments. A few things I would highlight as strange comments: On April 29 2014 14:18 dravernor wrote: I think we've been off to a pretty aggressive start already tbh. I now think I am going to be useless at this game because everyone and no-one looks scummy. I think the top two suspects here in my eyes are Epishade and 27ninjabunnies as they have been pressing and deflecting the most for what looks like an early lynch. But, the game is still young and I don't really know many of you yet, so I could be reading wrong completely. On April 30 2014 01:26 dravernor wrote: This all seems a bit of a mess and confusing. So many accusations flying around. I still don't see anything as overly suspicious behaviour, and it kinda scares me because someone here is hiding. My suspicion of Epishade and bunnies still stands though – They both seem overly aggressive/defensive, which may actually be a deliberate ploy to make each other both look like townies. As you can see sqrt has already cleared them form his list, and Yell0w too. I'd actually like some clarification on this please: (cut) The bolded sections are double-talk. Do these players look scummy, or do they not look scummy? Are these players aggressive, or are they defensive? I don't like these comments because they feel noncommittal and meaningless. He does give reads on Epishade and ninjabunnies, however, which makes the posts a little better. I do disagree with those reads, but dravenor made them earlier in the game so I don't find his view on them as different to be particularly suspicious. He didn’t followup on his read of Eden as he had indicated. Altogether Dravenor hasn’t commented enough that I can make much more of his posts than that. @dravenor: We need you to weigh in on some of the prevailing arguments. Obviously I care about your thoughts on Eden, but I think we should start consolidating a little. So, please talk about yell0w and mtamburini and the points made on the two of them. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
This one is pretty short. So far I like dfs' posts. I don't agree with dfs seeing sqrt as scummy from sqrt's reads. But I think that's a reasonable feeling for dfs to have. I don't know sqrt's scum play yet (I've only seen him play town) but I feel like in his prior games he posted some reads that were not very well explained and seemed confusing even though he was town. It'd be a mistake to give him a free pass, but it is something I will value a little less in evaluating sqrt. That said, I feel like without having read sqrt's prior games that feeling is legitimate so I like dfs for his suspicion of sqrt. Thinking through this, I feel a little bit better on SweetFrost who had a similar response to sqrt's reads. I still feel SweetFrost's explanation when voting for sqrt (numerous, short, prodding posts) is weird, though, since those qualities don't strike me as scum indicative. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I still want to comment on Eden's case on yell0w but I'd like to see mtamburini's response to it first. If anyone is in thread and doesn't know what to talk about, I think a good focus for now is yell0w/mtamburini. I'd also like people voting for mtamburini to give thoughts on this post I made earlier ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=25#483 ) which is why I don't feel mtamburini's push on yell0w was that scummy. If you think mtamburini is scum then give me some responses and maybe you'll convince me or at least help me read you better. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
---------------- ---------------- First, I want to address timing of vigi claims and why I don't like mtamburini's claim. This is Second, I want to address looking at tamburini as vigilante or serial killer (probably another post) ---------------- ---------------- I agree with most of Eden’s points here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=28#543) and essentially agree that mtamburini should not have claimed vigilante when he did. I don’t entirely agree with Eden's the first point - if mtamburini draws a mafia roleblock, it at least frees up other blue roles to perform night actions, but that isn't too important Second, I don't really like the claim because he claimed before defending himself. I'd have liked to see him push back more on the pressure on him. At the very least, shouldn't mtamburini be responding to the people putting pressure on him and seeing how they respond to determine if their pressure is legitimate or from a scum mindset? Third, mtamburini's explanation for revealing isn't that applicable to this game. On May 01 2014 07:18 mtamburini wrote: Its common practice in the video mafia games that I play in the Vigilante claims and lets everyone know that they will be shooting in case they die in the night and 2 kills happen instead of 1 so there is no confusion the next day ( we usually play with 2 kp for mafia until there is 2 of them left with no flips). In this game, mafia KP is always one. So if we see 2 KP, we have no doubt/confusion that a kill is coming from a vigilante or serial killer. In other words, this explanation makes sense in the video games, but it doesn't fit in this game. A quick note on claiming targets If you are a vig, I think it's often a good idea to only reveal who you are shooting shortly before night ends. If you post when the deadline hits 10 seconds or so, it denies scum the opportunity to respond to who you will kill (because their night actions are also time-limited). If we take tamburini as an example: he indicated he plans to shoot yell0w. This information could help town in limited situations (for instance, if yell0w is a blue role, maybe he claims it to avoid the shot, saving a town blue). But, it’s probably more likely to help mafia… if yell0w is mafia (which mafia knows), they have a higher incentive to try to lynch mtamburini today. If mafia has a roleblock, they can use it on mtamburini if yell0w is scum, or let mtamburini shoot yell0w if they know yell0w is town. Now, it’s fine if mtamburini is just being tricky and will actually shoot someone else, but it’s hard to really say much on WIFOM plays so let’s leave it at that. Even if that is his plan, I think it helps town for him to claim his actual shot shortly before the night ends so if the person dies we have a better idea where KP is coming from. -- That said, I do think it's good that mtamburini claimed early enough that we can respond to it and we get to see who wants to lynch him and who doesn't. I feel it's reasonable to think if yell0w is mafia, his teammates may be more likely to want to lynch mtamburini today; If yell0w is town, mafia is less likely to want to lynch mtamburini today. We can't necessarily expect mafia to be uniform on this, but it's something to think about if we see a flip on yell0w/mtamburini. --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- Questions: @mtamburini: If you are alive tonight, my preference is that you post just before the night-action deadline and indicate who you will target (confirming that you are killing yell0w or revealing your actual target). Also, since this pertains to timing a little- On April 10 2014 03:10 27ninjabunnies wrote: I totally agree. Claiming a role should be done at the last moment possible. So you immediately start with day in this setup? Interesting @ninjabunnies: This was a pregame post so I won't put much emphasis on it, but I would like to ask you this: what do you think of the timing of mtamburini's claim? @ninjabunnies: As a video mafia player with mtamburini, what do you think of mtamburini's explanation regarding claiming your target? --- I’ll comment in a few minutes on serial killer vs. mafia, with particular attention to Eden’s post here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=28#551 | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
So this is more of the reason I don’t want to lynch mtamburini today. I think Eden makes some good points in his post here ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=28#551 ) but is missing what I feel is the central difference between SK and Vigi. I think a serial killer does not want to appear that towny. If a serial killer is a good town leader, mafia probably kills the SK. If a serial killer catches mafia, mafia probably kills the SK. Given that, I don’t see mtamburini’s actions as strongly indicative of SK instead of vigilante. Specifically: - I don’t think a serial killer would start the game with a declaration of town leadership – this draws attention to himself when he should want to stay on the sidelines. - I don’t think a serial killer would put pressure on yell0w when people were starting to move away from him. - I don’t see why a serial killer would claim vigilante so quickly - mafia may reasonably believe he is a vigilante and shoot him. --------- So my feeling is: I don’t really feel mtamburini’s claim or play is great vigilante play; But, I also don’t really feel like it’s great serial killer play. Admittedly, I don’t think we are likely to have much amount of information tomorrow about mtamburini’s role (unless he gets killed). But, remember that whether you feel tamburini is vigilante OR whether you feel tamburini is serial killer, scum doesn’t know know which role it is, either. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On May 01 2014 11:51 Eden1892 wrote: Town: I want to kill the serial killer and the mafia if I believe both to be in the game. I think mtamburini is fakeclaiming as serial killer because his claim only makes sense in the scenario I described in my big post. He's just making himself the n1 kill if he's actually the vigilante, which is colossally stupid. It's better for me to kill the serial killer over a mafia because removing the serial killer takes away 1 of the 2 anti-town kp. If I killed, say, Yell0w and he flipped scum, we've caught a mafia, but we're equally close to winning (as in either case we've killed 1 anti-town player), and we still have 2 anti-town kp instead of one to deal with. The serial killer is always the better kill. @Eden1892: I agree with you generally, this doesn't make sense to me given mtamburini's preferences. Please answer this: Why is the serial killer a better lynch when the serial killer seems to want to shoot yell0w, who you think is mafia? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@ritoky: What are your current feelings on SweetFrost? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@dfs You will probably be around before lynch since I think you haven't voted yet. Could you comment on sweetfrost? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
If tamburini is the serial killer, he still has to play as a vigilante. If mtamburini doesn't shoot at yell0w, his play is strongly inconsistent since he has basically tunnelled yell0w the whole game. His best chance at passing as vig is shooting yell0w. If he shoots someone else and claims WIFOM then it is very suspicious (well... if he kills a mafia that isn't yell0w, that's not so bad). While mtamburini hasn't stated straight out that he will kill yell0w, I think that's the only reasonable person he can be referring to with his target with 85% certainty comment. For one, I don't think it would refer to anyone other than who he is voting for. Even if it did, it would be pretty awful to have that much confidence in someone as scum and not bring the person up as a lynch candidate. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Strongest point for Sweetfrost's is probably on reads, which have been contrary to most other players' views and not well explained. The initial suspicion of yell0w seemed fine, but when she says she sees either yell0w or bunnies as scum but not both, it's hard for me to see how she seem to see one as more persuasive than the other. The later vote on sqrt feels underevaluated. The paragraph above has been discussed before, but there is more to support a lynch on sweetfrost. I think Sweetfrost is a suspicious with regard to epishade/ritoky interactions. Sweetfrost clears ritoky for his posting style. That doesn't strike me as that unusual - ritoky had just presented reads that I felt were fairly clearly written. But, > Ritoky reads sqrt read as unusual/odd/difficult to read. Sweetfrost sees sqrt as scum. > Ritoky suspected Epishade. However, when ninjabunnies asked Sweetfrost about epishade being scummy, Sweet disagreed/didn't trust ninjabunnies' (gut)read of epishade as scummy. > Ritoky leaned town on bunnies, and odd on yell0w. Sweetfrost seems to see one of the two (but not both) as scum. This isn't totally inconsistent, but you'd think agreeing would mean considering yell0w the more likely scum. Sweet hasn't talked about many players, so there's not much more to compare. But, for the people she does comment on, it seems suspicious that her Sweetfrost's actions don't seem very aligned with ritoky's reads, which Sweet liked. Basically, I would expect agreement from SweetFrost on some reads, or think SweetFrost would pursue/question Ritoky's scumreads. Since we don't get much of either, looks bad. ##Vote: SweetFrost I do think there is a weak point in a case on SweetFrost - I will probably post it when I get back from lunch. It's better to hold onto for the moment. --- Two side notes: (1) Mysterymeat has given almost no contribution, but I don't see a lynch on him as useful. I would be okay with his lynch as a general lurker policy lynch, but it feels a little unfair - if he is tempbanned, he can't post here so he can't defend himself, can't roleclaim, etc. However, do we actually know when he can post again? If he's going to be unable to talk for any significant part of the game that's going to be an issue... + Show Spoiler + maybe we could get cavalinho to /replace so we could lynch him instead. (2) @all: In the next few hours, votes need to be consolidated. Mafia probably have three or four votes they can use, so to have a significant chance of lynching mafia we need to have town votes move together. If votes are spread out, they are easily manipulated. If you think someone you are voting for is clearly mafia more than the other potential votes, make your case ASAP. But, you need to move to the major wagons and sooner is better. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Also I thought he was straightforward on shooting yell0w, but as his post just now indicates he's got more than one potential target I think your read on his post (not necessarily shooting yell0w) is probably correct. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I wanna write about mtamburini but I gotta grab lunch, sorry. I'll consider your points on lynching him more when I get back, I don't think you'll convince me but I do like the idea more given mtamburini's last post. @mtamburini: I'd like you to weigh in on an acceptable lynch who is not yell0w. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@sqrt: I think his post just above yours is relatively straightforward about his other targets (mtamburini / yell0w / sweetfrost) | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@sqrt: It seems like one indicator you like to use to feel towny about people is that the player is contributing, making reads, trying to figure out the game, etc. Earlier you said meat may be town when he wasn't talking much. Given the posts meat did make, what about them makes you opposed to lynching him? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
) | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
My concern or weakness with a SweetFrost lynch (mentioned earlier) is that I don't feel that anyone is really putting much effort into defending SweetFrost. I don't think anyone has given a townread of SweetFrost (?) which is strange seen even Meat has managed to pull a semi-townread. I don't feel too bad about that, however, as there are some competing wagons. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I'm fine with mtamburini keeping quiet about his shot for now, as I said it should get declared just before night ends. But, I still think my point on Eden is fair (even if he thinks mtamburini is SK, if he thinks the SK is going to shoot scum then there's no reason to lynch the SK tonight). sqrt Sqrt has some votes and I want to at least explain my feelings on him a little better. I don't really see votes on him as scummy because my reluctance to lynch him d1 is largely meta-based, so it's understandable other people would feel differently. I do not read sqrt as a solid town, but here's why I tend to discount the current things that people feel are scummy: (1) Post length sqrt's short comments/posts are not a good indicator that he is scum. - In Newbie Mini Mafia LIV sqrt was a medic. Take a quick look at his filter in that game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/445959-newbie-mini-mafia-liv?user=sqrtofneg1&view=all - In Newbie Mini Mafia LIII sqrt was vanilla town. Take a quick look at his filter in that game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/444775-newbie-mini-mafia-liii?user=sqrtofneg1&view=all In both of those games he was town, and made mostly short posts with occasional longer posts. This doesn't mean sqrt is town. But, I think it does mean sqrt can't reliably be seen as scum based on making short posts. (2) Weird Reads In LIV, as an observer I really suspected sqrt strongly based on his reads (Eden could confirm this from the /obs). Some of sqrt's shifting reads felt really off to me - for instance, he read a player (Tolkien) as scummy d1 for a trap Tolkien claimed to have made, then read him as towny d2 for the same trap. Sqrt ended up getting mislynched, and I think a fair part of that was due to explaining his reads poorly. I'm not saying "excuse sqrt's bad reads" - actually, I think sqrt was the only player alive at the end of the game who suspected one of the mafia (Onceking). But, I think looking at some of the other things he's done may be a better indication. I don't know sqrt's scum game so any meta read is limited to that, more or less (I can't say what he does as scum since I haven't seen him as scum yet). If it doesn't persuade you that's fine, but I hope it at least pushes sqrt down a bit and Sweetfrost up by comparison. @mtamburini and @Eden: You were each in a game with sqrt, do you have any thoughts on his play this game? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Things I would like you to comment on: (1) What do you think of tamburini's vigilante claim? (2) Does my post here ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=33#648 ) make you feel differently on sqrt? It's fine if your answer is no, but I want to at least know that you considered it and still wanted to keep your vote on sqrt. (3) dfs also voted for sqrt. Could you give a read of him? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
[QUOTE]On May 02 2014 05:00 sqrtofneg1 wrote: [QUOTE]On May 02 2014 04:59 27ninjabunnies wrote: I honestly don't think that tamburini should out his shot.[/QUOTE] Oh yes before the end of night 1, I agree. however right now, no. For this reason, mafia can't double stack on his kill if they don't know who it is. [/QUOTE] I feel a double stack is possible but unlikely, but this is something I probably won't want to discuss until d2 so if you care about it and want to discuss it remind me then | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
1) Why does a SK enter thread the way mtamburini did? 2) Do you think SK is more likely to take veteran-power or scan immunity? @ninjabunnies if you are around I'd like you to answer the second one since you may feel differently as a video player. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
(1) I don't think a serial killer begins the game by calling himself a town leader, and (2) I think if tamburini is serial killer, he would take bulletproof. If he doesn't, claiming vigilante is very risky as scum may shoot him suspecting he is a vigilante. That seems like a greater risk than check-immunity, especially since this setup allows godfather/framer/miller so there's potential to argue over a bad looking cop check... it's harder to argue with being dead | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Your vote on ahswtini isn't likely to get more support, particularly since you are not here to argue for the lynch. If the votes are close between the other players (as they are) it's easy for mafia to move a few votes to avoid lynching scum. -- I will say SweetFrost has done something that reminds me of Cavalinho d1 my first forum game that is town-indicative to me... I'll think about it a bit. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
This is at least somewhat town indicative to me because I think scum could try to live longer- scum Sweetfrost could say that after looking at tamburini's claim it's untrustworthy and vote for him to hope at least one more vote moves over. I am not really happy with the tamburini wagon so I don't want to swap, but it is a concern for me with so little time left. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
If Sweet didn't, it indicates to me either (a) maybe sweet is scum and tamburini is also scum; (b) maybe sweet is town and believes mtamburini's claim (why I asked about it); or (c) sweet just didn't realize the potential to survive. And yeah that's what I was referring to with cavalinho (where he could have voted someone else to survive) - I think he didn't move the vote because he wasn't sure how majorities worked and maybe also was not present for the lynch. I guess deadline is up so we'll see how it goes.  (btw if there's any new players, posting the popcorn smiley is a very important part of forum mafia) | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I'm going to focus on work for a few hours since we don't have pending deadlines but I'll try to see if I can draw anything from the votes when I get back. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I think talking at night is good. Just generally, don't claim a role or an action unless it's just before deadline. I feel we should be looking at the votes for yesterday so I'll do that a little now. -- Vote thoughts- (1) Vote Spread If the prevailing wagons (sweetfrost we know was not; mtamburini we think is not) are both non-scum, then mafia has little reason to join the wagons since they don't have a preference as to who ends up getting lynched. (2) I feel Eden is less likely to be scum based on his activity around the vote. This is based on Eden asking players to move onto mtamburini from SweetFrost. If we go with the prevailing thoughts that mtamburini is probably vigilante/sk (not scum), it seems like scum-Eden wouldn't have a strong preference between the two because either way, the lynch gets a non-scum. One way this explanation might make sense is if Eden was trying to save yell0w by killing vig/sk (mtamburini). I think this is pretty unlikely, however, because an Eden/yell0w scumteam seems inconsistent with Eden's push onto yell0w d1. (3) I have a thought on existence of certain roles based on the vote patterns, but it's not something I want to discuss right now. (4) We do see Epishade and sqrt voting together (on Eden and Sweetfrost). Both also appear in each others' filters quite a bit. @sqrt: Can you explain your current reads on Epishade & dravenor? @Epishade: Can you explain current reads on sqrt & dravenor? I'm interested in including reads on dravenor because he ended the day voting on Epishade. ----------------- | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
- Mafia KP is always going to be one. If no kill comes from scum, it's due to (a) a roleblocker targeting the scumplayer who is doing the kill; (b) jailer protection on the kill target; (c) serial killer protection taking a hit; (d) mafia not killing. Based on that, if we see more than one kill tonight, we know there is at least one vigilante/serial killer in the game. - If you are roleblocked tonight, you should be notified (even if you have no role). I think town should almost always claim if they are roleblocked. There is a potential downside (ex: it can inform scum there is a town roleblocker/jailer) but I feel it's usually more beneficial to town. I have also have an idea about scum/tamburini night actions but those can come tomorrow if I'm alive or maybe at the end of night. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Remember if you are town you should help with analysis and comments, not just shooting. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On May 02 2014 09:57 Epishade wrote: Very well, I can wait until the next day to make my case if I'm still alive. If this is really a concern, just post your case shortly before the deadline. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
--------- (). --------- @dravenor’s post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/447955-newbie-mini-mafia-lv?page=38#743 Epishade: I think Epishade has done a better job than many players of explaining his reasoning. His reads feel like they are reactive and change in reasonable ways which I think is usually a good indicator of being town. For example, Epishade’s vote moved around some d1 (mtamburini, sweetfrost, eden, sweetfrost) but I feel like he gave explanations as he did change his vote which were mostly reasonable. I feel like your concern over Epishade is largely drawn from his defensiveness early game. I just don’t find that to be strongly mafia indicative. In other words, I think the possibilities (scum-Epishade defend town-yell0w, scum-Epishade defend scum-yell0w, town-Epishade defend town-yell0w, town-Epishade defend scum-yell0w) are all somewhat reasonable. ahswtini- I have to take another look later if I’m alive, sorry. Time limited. tamburini thought If tamburini is the SK, I still don’t think he’s necessarily a great lynch tomorrow. If he is SK, his goal should be to keep some balance between the alignments. Since we mislynched d1 and we’ll likely lose another person to mafia KP tonight, a serial killer should probably try to kill a mafia to keep the game balanced out. In other words, I still don’t trust tamburini, but I do feel like if he isn’t scum he should still be working toward a town goal, at least for now. If there’s a scum killed tonight we can re-evalute this. me/bunnies/Eden (and general “if I die thoughts”): I understand the point that bunnies & I are fairly townread by most people, but I think you may be overstating town reliance on us / influence we wield. I mean, even if bunnies and I are the most townread, we still only got sqrt & Epishade to join the push on Sweetfrost. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Just filter people, see if their reads make sense, see how they talk about other people. As the game continues and people claim roles, refer back to votes/comments and see if it is consistent. I don't have any secret suspicions right now. Win for town | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I forgot to make this point, but thanks for indirectly reminding me. Sqrt asking about mafia action does strike me as suspicious partly because of his questioning in another game - in a prior game, sqrt asked the following n1 as doctor: On March 28 2014 08:06 sqrtofneg1 wrote: Eden, if you were doctor, who would you save now? Who's your top town? | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On May 14 2014 07:00 sqrtofneg1 wrote: | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
![[image loading]](http://24.media.tumblr.com/db1483b0e93fad389585cec520b66a07/tumblr_n19vli1uFI1qegob8o2_500.gif) This was a really fun game to watch. /obs chat was an emotional rollercoaster, I think we were all certain mafia won but when Epishade unvoted our hopes flew. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Coach QT (with Artanis http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/S48eVWsTWJLPt Not very long since I died D1, but I tried to make good use out of it. Helped in thinking through mtamburini's claim (also let me just say again MTAMBURINI LOL WHAT). General game thoughts I thought this was a really fun game. Activity was good for the most part, and there were no modkills. Not really any raging or insults. I felt there could have been more analysis, but it wasn't terrible. There were some flubs - meat getting banned, meat talking about his coach getting banned, the misreport of role.... but, thankfully none of them seemed to materially affect the game. On that note, I'm really glad we didn't lynch meat d1, despite his slow start when he came back I think he played well. I felt there were very few real defenses when people started to get lynched, which was unfortunate for both town and mafia. I'm glad the last day was more active in that respect. Thoughts on my own play after dying n1 (posted from obs qt) + Show Spoiler + In terms of play, I think I did pretty well pushing on people d1 and working through reads. I didn't actually feel that confident in my reads, but I felt like it was important to get people talking about each other and I felt my points on SweetFrost and mtamburini were decent. I'm disappointed SweetFrost was a mislynch. I did consider trying to get votes moved after SweetFrost said he wouldn't move his vote, but it felt like the only wagon I could have gotten people onto was sqrt and I didn't feel it was a tempting enough alternative. For my play, I am mixed. As Miller, I felt it was important that I either appear townie (so I don't get checked) or get shot (so it didn't matter). I was thinking I would probably claim d3 at the earliest, hopefully later, since that would be the soonest someone would out with parity cop checks. I think my style is to vote when I'm ready to lynch someone. I tend not to vote for pressure, and I rarely unvote when I pick someone to vote on. I will try to improve on that and maybe be a little looser with my vote next game to see how it helps my play. Thoughts post-game on my play I give myself some credit for making some points on Eden and dravenor d1, but don't feel that great about it since I also raised some concerns on yell0w and ended up pushing for SweetFrost. I think D2 would have been really different if I was alive- I think I would still resisted a lynch on sqrt and pushed on Eden that day, but I really can't say how that would have panned out. For myself, I promised I would try to do more to defend other people I townread this game. I think I did that okay... sqrt and epishade only got a little pressure when I was alive, and I didn't really need to pressure bunnies. Getting killed n1 felt like a compliment :D Dying D1 as miller was totally acceptable to me, though I was bummed when it turned out there was no parity cop. Oh well. I'd still love to read the scum QT when someone gets a chance to post it. -------- As always if anyone has any advice/suggestions/comments on my play I'm always glad to hear them :D | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On May 17 2014 07:23 27ninjabunnies wrote: Yeah. Real life got in the way. Between finals, moving out of my dorm, working. I couldn't post as much as i was at the beginnig. And then me having to drive 8 hours for my cousin's graduation today didnt help either I remember when I was driving home (~30mins) on my LYLO day I felt super frantic, lol, if I had to drive 8 hours I think I would have found a cliff and driven off it. | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
LOL, I died d1 and I still feel exhausted as if I was playing in LYLO. I need an /obs vacation :D | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
That said, I really like the idea that Eden would have believed a parity cop claim on d6 when he wouldn't believe Cav's claim on d1. :D In all seriousness though, I think you played well Eden. I feel like you probably could have fought off my early suspicions of you if I pushed them harder, and you put a lot of effort into the cases. Well played! Drav I don't think you were awful the way you are suggesting... although you were definitely in my scum list, you clearly put effort into your posts. I think because your posts were less frequent, though, each one received more focus and small comments that would have otherwise gone unnoticed ended up working against you. No worries | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Sqrt had great activity and really good reads (he called all 3 mafia in obs right after he died) but still was mislynched d2, I think largely because of his semi-undirected questioning style. If people know that's his style, hopefully they'll see that as alighnment-neutral for him. I guess my meta is to get my preferred lynch d1, except it is a mislynch. Then, get carried to a victory somehow :D | ||
| ||
