EPTI feel like I should be WaveofShadowing somebody lololol
[I] [S] Shadow Mini Mafia
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I feel like I should be WaveofShadowing somebody lololol | ||
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/shadow if people will have me then. Same boat as fubadooba though---if I'm too 'experienced' give the spot to someone else. | ||
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On December 25 2013 01:24 justanothertownie wrote: See, that's why I would like to shadow one of those guys. Playing the following game is a whole different story. Obviously people are different. That's why I said "at least for me". I didn't critisize anyone of a different opinion and I didn't say this project isn't a good idea but the things I said are the reasons why I personally won't join this although I would like to shadow a good player. WoS asked why and I answered. I was about to say that I'm surprised you think that way considering many of the people who want to shadow aren't exactly inexperienced or newbie players and are quite skilled in their own right, and then I looked at the list again and realized that a great deal of that category of players isn't being allowed to shadow lol. Maybe at some point down the road we could do this with an 'intermediate' level as well?  | ||
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On December 30 2013 07:18 jaybrundage wrote: So the question is... Who's the weakest player on the list That's a very interesting question. Are we allowed to talk about that in the thread? (I know if I end up replacing somebody it'll be me lololol) | ||
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(Just don't do that again  ) | ||
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For my baby. | ||
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On January 21 2014 00:36 Holyflare wrote: This better be actually rng'd :x I can't think of a game I've ever played that wasn't RNGed... | ||
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On January 21 2014 01:14 kitaman27 wrote: Don't mind the fact that they are RNG'd multiple times until they get the outcome that they want. Don't lie to me kita. It's bad enough I'm going to have to deal with you doing that once the game starts. | ||
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I think the only difference here is for the first time I'm actually relieved to roll town. I'd be pretty terrified to go up against this town as scum. One of these days I will have another scumgame; it seems that day is not today. Holy! Where you at? I've never played a non-voice game with you before. Let's do something. | ||
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On January 21 2014 10:46 kitaman27 wrote: I was kinda hoping to role mafia with the all vanilla setup. They probably have the advantage regardless of who is playing. Wanna vote sandroba with me? He may or may not be scummy. lol I'm really hoping you're not scum kita. Nah no reason to vote sandroba yet. Not only is there basically nothing to vote him for, I've seen what he's capable of as the game progresses (from PYP) and if he is town and plays this game anything like that, he'll start slow and then start bringing the pain to scum. | ||
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I only offered that as an aside anyway, my main reason for not wanting to vote him is because I literally don't see one. Hapa, do you see yourself getting shot N1 in this game? | ||
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On January 21 2014 11:35 Promethelax wrote: Okay broskis, this is just silly. We know how to start a game and it isn't this Mafia Scum inspired baseless lynches shall we discuss policy? Why yes we shall because you all will actually have to commit to something. Since we aren't the run of the mill hokey dory TL types I think its time we set a few ground rules: there should be no discussion of policy lynching lurkers. We simply lynch them. If everyone is good enough to be shadowed everyone is good enough to play the game and we cannot tolerate lurkers. It is my hope that this particular policy doesn't come into play since, obviously, we are the best that TL has so we should play the best as well and lurking simply isn't the best. We are all good enough to carry a town and I would like us all to be that good this game. Play your hearts out gentlemen. I would also like a non-aggression pact. That is we all agree to play nice since I'd rather like to be good role models for our newbies. And yes, I know I'm scummy for posting this, does someone want to come out and say it so that I can defend myself and we can move on with this game and make actual cases on each other and find scum. Unlike WoS I was excited to roll scum in this game, I figured I'd have an excuse to be steamrolled but if I did a good job it would be a huge accomplishment but no, I'm town, I have to figure things out. I would much rather lie to you all but fuck me, I don't get to lie to you. I gotta work for my money. So get it together boys, we are policy lynching lurkers, we aren't going to be mean to each other and we are going to catch scum. And we'll start with Hapa making a case on me, why? Because its tradition is why. I don't think lurkers will be an issue in this game. I'm really confused by your opener though...you want to discuss policy and then you state right after that you don't want to discuss it? Like...discussion of policy on its own isn't scummy imo but why did you go about it so awkwardly? I do agree with the non-aggression thing, but no offense---I'd imagine you'd have to be one of the primary people to agree with that (and it seems as though you have?) Now onto more important details: why specifically Hapa? Do you two have a history? Is he going to want to make a case on you at all, never mind find something specific in this post of yours in order to make one? | ||
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On January 21 2014 11:47 Promethelax wrote: You got so close to making that case on me. So close. And yet so far. It is policy and we could discuss it, I just assume no one will disagree with it so there is no discussion which will stem from it. The discussion comes from me posting things which you can call me town on or base a case on. That is what generates discussion, not policy we all agree on. Since you are, so far, the only person interrogating people on the shit they post I'm choosing to believe you are town for the moment. Since I am town that means you and I shall discuss other people. In this case VE and this post: You see VE knows how to say things. But this post doesn't say things. This post, when the fluff is removed says that we should let Sandroba do his own thing because no matter what he'll do his own thing and that Sandroba may or may not catch scum. It shows such a lack of curiosity that I am disturbed. Do you, Hapa, agree? y/n? Will you go on a date with me y/n? O I C It's gonna be one of these games. And of course never mind that I said the exact same thing VE did before he said it. Prome I feel rejected. | ||
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Get out of my head VE Though I must admit two of these this early bodes pretty well for us, does it not? | ||
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On January 21 2014 12:02 kitaman27 wrote: I can't call VE scummy, else he will vote for me. I KNOW YOUR SECRETS. I'd rather talk about marv. He suggest that the all vanilla setup makes things difficult to start off rather than attempting to generate conversation. I'm kind of interested to see a game in which marv is not likely to take over. On January 21 2014 11:57 Hapahauli wrote: Yeah I agree. I've been put off by VE's posting so far, mostly because he's been one of the more active people in the thread and hasn't managed to post anything substantive. It's reminiscent of my last few voice mafia games with him, where he's willing to talk a lot about irrelevant things at length, while ignoring attempts at any meaningful discussion. My initial vote on him was random, but I like where it's parked right now. What's your favorite restaurant? I'll make the reservations <3 I'm fine with VE for now for reasons stated earlier. What does bother me a little Hapa (and I'll admit, bothers me every time this is brought up by anyone in any game) is your comparison of VE's play to voice mafia games. There is very little if any indication at all that you can base people's play in forum games on how they play on TS. Par example (though not the only one), in voice mafia I am supremely confident, can sniff out scum with just a few words from them, and play mafia really damn well. Would you say that describes my forum mafia play? Essentially text and forum-based games are way too different to make proper comparisons in my opinion, and I would really think that you'd be aware of that. | ||
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On January 21 2014 12:36 kitaman27 wrote: I wanted to see whether you thought that I was pushing sandroba based on his first post or not. Regardless of whether or not sandroba will react to having votes on him, I still think the best way to start off a game is to place votes early on 1-2 targets. If we're discussing players that have recently posted, I'm not really interested in joining you on VE. Would you be willing to support a Wave bandwagon? I find very few of his questions relevant thus far. I don't see what he is looking for. Wave, would you like to explain your approach to the first few hours of the game? I get a feel for reads through conversation. My questions to Hapa/Prome are to try and get a feel for them while creating conversation at the same time. When I'm curious about something or something strikes me odd, I mention it. I'm not sure why that isn't obvious to you. | ||
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On January 21 2014 12:44 Hapahauli wrote: So what's your feeling of myself and Prome as of now? Any other reads worth mentioning? Only preliminary reads I really have are those who have been actively participating in the thread. I have VE as my strongest townread atm, which I believe I have mentioned before (or at least hinted towards). Hapa I have you as slight town because your entrance and play thus far is consistent with how I remember you from that one game where I smurfed as Gravityman, though I remain wary here because I am not the best meta-user around. Your lines of questioning appear pretty towny as well so even without meta you keep the cursory townread. I have Prome as null atm for a combination of things that VE is also on him about (though the difference may be I don;'t find him scummy necessarily)---his entrance seems way too weird, attention-grabby and most of all forced to be something scum would attempt, but then again I'm not a big fan of the content nor his seemingly baseless townread of me. Is there anything else anyone wants before I'm off to bed? I won't be around for much of tomorrow but I will return in the evening. | ||
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On January 21 2014 15:41 Foolishness wrote: This game just got a whole lot easier. ##Vote: WaveOfShadow o.O Welp, don't know what to make of that, so I'ma ignore it for now. Welcome to the game Foolishness? | ||
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On January 21 2014 15:45 Foolishness wrote: Wait. Wait. If you are going to ignore it, why did you respond to it? Because I'm responding to you, having just entered the game, and being polite. If you're not going to provide reasoning for your vote, I have no way or reason to discuss it. | ||
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Foolishness I'll admit, when you first posted this I was going to drop the hammer on you when I came back. WaveOfShadow I will go into a little more detail here. On January 21 2014 10:39 WaveofShadow wrote: Welp, gonna go with my usual opener. I think the only difference here is for the first time I'm actually relieved to roll town. I'd be pretty terrified to go up against this town as scum. One of these days I will have another scumgame; it seems that day is not today. Holy! Where you at? I've never played a non-voice game with you before. Let's do something. What about this post is good? He says generic things that anybody can say. Also the "Let's do something" seems incredibly forced. What does he hope to accomplish by saying that? I don't know (most likely he's mafia) and it feels like he's trying very hard to sound like he's vested in the game (when all he would have to do is just post whatever his thoughts are). And then there's this post as well. On January 21 2014 11:41 WaveofShadow wrote: Show nested quote + I don't think lurkers will be an issue in this game. I'm really confused by your opener though...you want to discuss policy and then you state right after that you don't want to discuss it? Like...discussion of policy on its own isn't scummy imo but why did you go about it so awkwardly? I do agree with the non-aggression thing, but no offense---I'd imagine you'd have to be one of the primary people to agree with that (and it seems as though you have?) Now onto more important details: why specifically Hapa? Do you two have a history? Is he going to want to make a case on you at all, never mind find something specific in this post of yours in order to make one? Which fails to do nothing but ask more questions of which he never followed through on (neither of them really followed through on to be honest), when he could do have done something like actively push Promethelax to say something of substance. People seem to have a great deal of trouble when I post things like this---it gets me in trouble a lot (marv can probably attest to this, and as well can probably attest to many thing I may bring up). WHy do I keep doing it then? Becuase I spit out what I'm thinking. I am open and honest with my posting, and I get my thoughts across. Not all of them are useful or relevant, but it shows a certain townie attitude, and is one of the reasons I never get lynched. There is nothing at all forced about it, in fact it's the opposite. I always comment about what I roll at the beginning of the game, and you should know that if you read into my meta as you said. As for the second quote, you're right I never did follow through, but I did mention here that I simply wanted to get some conversation started and satisfy some of my own curiosity. No ulterior motives here. On January 21 2014 12:40 WaveofShadow wrote: I get a feel for reads through conversation. My questions to Hapa/Prome are to try and get a feel for them while creating conversation at the same time. When I'm curious about something or something strikes me odd, I mention it. I'm not sure why that isn't obvious to you. And yet even though I answered why I asked those 'odd' questions ages ago, people constantly bring it up. To me this post appeared lazy as hell. It looked as though you picked me out of a group of vets, said to yourself' Here's an opportunity to mislynch an easy target or force some pressure for weak reasons. I'm not a big fan of either. I hate being baited and unless you're bad at this game (which I do not believe from all of the praises people have spoken of you), that's all your early posting amounted to me. I imagine you expected me to respond in some way or overreact and I had no desire to do either, when all you can bring up as a mafia case to me is that you don't like my entry post. There is absolutely nothing inherently scummy about my posting in the slightest, and this post certainly did not prove it. On January 22 2014 09:22 Foolishness wrote: Yes I did that yesterday when I first accused him. However I did not find anything really damning on that front. He's only had one game as mafia here and there weren't any glaring similarities to that. For example, when WoS was mafia he swore a ton (just skim through his posts and you will see that) but when he's town that kind of attitude is absent. Also feels like he might be slightly more trolly when he's mafia. I'm still suspicious of him and want to clear the air on him now and not later because as I said in my previous posts he made a lot of generic statements and had opportunities to answer questions and instead only gave more questions to the thread. And a part of me does feel that his interaction with Promethelax says that at most one of them is mafia. I may be reading into that too much. Now this I liked a little better and so instead of attempting to tear into you I'm writing this post a little more neutrally. Not finding anything damning is meh, because people find terrible reasons to look and compare to my meta every game, but there's an inherent problem with looking at my meta that you really should realize, Foolishness. I have played ONE scumgame. One game does not a sample size make, ESPECIALLY one game played what, 7 months ago? Do you honestly feel it would be accurate to make a comparison of my meta in any way to a sole scumgame when I have changed things about my TOWN play multiple times since then? The last person I can think of who tried to make bad meta arguments against me was Palmar in Thug Life I believe. Oh and by the way, if you think I don't swear as town, you should check out Thug Life for another reason. Bad meta thoughts here are real bad. Now, if you'd like to have a conversation or ask me anything in particular to 'clear the air' as you said, or learn something that's not blatantly false about me, then by all means. I'll be here the rest of the evening doin' some much needed filter diving. Something struck me about Holy in particular and I'm not sure I liked it. More posts inc. | ||
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On January 22 2014 06:02 Holyflare wrote: @Hapa, the part of VE is irrespective of whether you are voting him or not. I am not you and I do not know how you play. The fact that you had to explain how your process of scum hunting works to me should be justification of that. All I can see is a person who was making points that were contradictary and sticking to things whenever he found them, thus, I ask questions to determine mindsets and thought processes so I can get a better read on someone further into the game. Thank you for responding. If you are town, you are obviously town to yourself. When another player that you do not know the alignment of says you are town, when there was plenty of information that made you look not town, (the stuff that I was bringing up) then alarm bells should ring. I do not know if it's a difference in styles or because I'm just super paranoid in general but these are the things I look out for. This post in specific by Holy I feel is important. The nitpicking he has been doing in regards to gonzaw and Hapa feels townie to me, and I do agree with his final thoughts except that final sentence rubs me the wrong way. The game of mafia is by nature a game of paranoia and I don't really feel that his line of questioning needed justification in that way---the 'things he looks out for' seem perfectly natural things for a townie to look out for (and hence why I was liking a lot of his posting), but then why make excuses for yourself at the end with that final sentence? Where is the holy wrath, righteousness and vindication ina townie knowing you're doing the right thing? Holy, your filter has completely been devoid of me, and I believe I get my best reads from conversing with people directly, so maybe now that we're both here we can talk just a little? Since you were curious over some people's obsession with Foolishness before he started to contribute, I might guess that now that he's actually done something you might actually have something to comment on the matter? What do you make of the fact that he has apparently chosen you as one of his primary targets for the day? (He still has his vote on me i believe but I imagine that will be moved one way or another.) | ||
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On January 22 2014 10:12 VisceraEyes wrote: Here's something that I still find off about Foolish's reentry post. This is where he explains his super townread of me right? But look at the bolded bit. He's criticizing me asking marv about my Prom post and the part where I share my observation about our interaction, but says that the TOWNIE bit is the last two sentences, the "fluffy" angry nonsense at the end. Like, I'm trying to wrap my head around this. He thinks I'm town, presumably he knows that I share at least Promethelax as a scumread, but he tries to lightly discredit me while calling me townie? And after the entire post, I STILL don't know if he actually READ my post on Promethelax. Something doesn't add up. I'm missing something, somewhere. He called what I said 'forced,' too. It's a weak buzzword imo that only serves as you said to lightly discredit somebody. It has no 'meat' to it, no evidence of foul play and is part of the reason why I really didn't like his return post. | ||
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Kita I need to go back and look at the games I've played with you. I dislike regarding meta primarily as a rule, but I can't remember if you play all your games by incessant questioning and seemingly 'starting shit.' I know you're capable of well-formed cases as either alignment but I really wish I could see one right now. So much of your filter is just questions; I don't know what you're building towards at all, and it bothers me. | ||
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On January 22 2014 10:17 gonzaw wrote: So VE, WOS, is Foo's entrance the Return of the Jedi, or the Revenge of the Sith? As I've said, I probably need to talk to him to be sure. His initial return post left a bad taste in my mouth because the case on me felt extremely weak and dare I say....forced? Facetiousness aside, the post just didn't seem worthy of someone of his apparent calibre. His second one dropped a few more thoughts but as I've said, I gain my best insights when I can talk to people one-on one so I can't be sure one way or the other. Overall I'd be most suspicious of him, Holy, and kita atm. I can't attempt to make much of a read on sandroba/marv/austin yet, but I'd very much like to. | ||
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On January 22 2014 10:21 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm not ignoring you bbygrl, you need something specific? Nah you know me, just like to shoot some shit and see what rains down. Talk to me about kita a little. He can be pretty tricksy; what do you make of the fact that he doesn't appear to have dropped any solid reads so far, but rather is content to poke whatever and whoever he can? | ||
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On January 22 2014 10:28 VisceraEyes wrote: Meh, I try not to read Kita's posts too much because he's mean to me  In all seriousness though, I haven't had a problem with the way he's questioning people. Like, the questions seem to have a guiding thought-process, which is something that I find townie. However it IS strange that he's not come out hard against anyone yet. I'm reserving my judgement on him until he does. That should shed some light as to what is/whether there is the thought-process he's following. It's totes gonna be me I CAN FEEL IT Your current scumread is still Prome I believe? Prome is also a player who often comes out with a massive case against someone and pushes it pretty hard. Why do you not reserve the same judgment for him? | ||
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On January 22 2014 11:36 VisceraEyes wrote: I just said that I get townie feels from the way Kita is questioning people - that earns him the hold. Prome has done something suspicious, and if he comes back and turns on the town then sure my mind could feasibly be changed, but I'm suspicious of him based on what he's already done in the thread. They're two different scenarios. Your main point against him is the weird take on our similar posts early, I get that. You also specifically state On January 22 2014 01:38 VisceraEyes wrote: This was a terrible reasoning for suspecting me in the first place, but to be fair it looks like a conversation starter more than an actual accusation, which can and does come from both alignments. However as a conversation starter, I do notice a distinct lack of calling me scummy or suspicious, only "disturbing". Could be benign icebreaking, or malicious doubt-weaving. Who can be so sure so early? I think it's suspicious because I think the rest of his play following this has been suspicious to me. What about the rest of Prome's play aside from the comparison between us has been suspicious? | ||
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On January 22 2014 13:09 VisceraEyes wrote: My main point is the rest of his play from his original point against me. There hasn't been anything else Wave, what do you want me to say? I don't, I'm just sort of curious because the day is ticking down, I'm looking for scum and I don't find myself convinced to vote Prome. Kita re: your list. I don't know whether to be relieved or insulted. Is there a reason you left out reads of me/Holy/Prome specifically until tomorrow? Gonzaw: On January 22 2014 13:40 gonzaw wrote: I'm still not convinced on Foo's posts. A "big meaty post" is not what makes Foolishness town, in any of the games he plays in, in my mind. More recently, he didn't act like it in Personality 2, and didn't in Liar Game either. I.e Foo is not the scummy guy who revindicates himself with that big post. At least that's the picture I get from reading his filter those games. Like Hapa said, "big meaty posts" can and usually do (even if it was just once) come from scum Foo instead. His second post "seemed" townie...but then again he just sheeped my Holy read, and biffle-waffled on WOS a little bit. It's also pretty funny how he says something like this... ...yet he makes posts like this: He 'biffle-waffled' on me and yet his vote remains. I don't know about you but I'm not convinced to vote me. | ||
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What the actual fuck is with the activity on D1 with 10h to go in a lynch? Somebody talk to me; I'm sick of being around when nobody else seems to be and vice versa. | ||
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On January 22 2014 13:00 kitaman27 wrote: I brought up some minor suspicions of Hapa early on in the game, but on second thought they probably didn't warrant much weight. When the game began, I was hesitant to trust the player that was going out of their way to look pro-town and generate "discussion" figuring that there might be a mafia player who is trying to teach their shadow how to maintain a strong thread presence. However, while Hapa is certainly capable of presenting strong town posts mid-game as mafia, I found that he appears to strongly prefer a backseat role on day one. He has mostly stayed active even after the start of the game, so I'm willing to put him in the back of my mind. Foolishness is pretty reliable for the one big post after people share their annoyance that he hasn't solved the game yet. I'm satisfied enough to move my vote, as long as he doesn't expect the one post to buy enough town cred to ride out the rest of the day in cruise control. His reads match up pretty closely to what I'm thinking at the moment, although I suppose it's not too difficult to call townie looking players town and then pick a couple personal preferences from the remaining group. There is one thing that I disagree with in Foolishness's assessment. He states that sandroba has had a strong appearance and has brought things to the thread. I don't see it so far. When he rejoined the thread, his re-enterence was extremely vanilla. He asked Foolishness about his WoS, which had already been beaten to death and he gave a softball to marv. His statement about Prom wasn't really anything new that he brought to the thread. I'm always hesitant to go after sandroba because I know a lot of the time he goes long periods of time without contributing much and then bursts into the thread with a great case. However, there is a distinct lack of aggressiveness in his posts and after 30 hours into the game, if he can't be bothered to play, that's on him, not me. I may have overreacted to gonzaw's Foolishness case. I completely skimmed past his thoughts on VE and he moves onto sharing thoughts about Holy when he had the option to stay where he is. I haven't decided between town or mafia with a lot of spare time, but activity buys him enough town cred that I don't want to lynch him right now. marv hasn't made a lynch push yet, which is a concern. On day one especially, I know I like to wait until late into the day to make my mind up, but at least I try to provide some direction to where I am leaning. With marv, I really don't know who he is suspicious of. He appears curious about myself, but only really brings stuff up casually without much resolve. He comments that gonzaw made some valid points, but he hasn't followed up on this by attacking any of the targets in question. Nothing really comes to mind when I think of how Marv plays mafia. I remember when he fooled me with active posting when he was new to the forum and I believe he played a backseat role in themed game, but I'll have to take a closer look at his filter. I can definitely see a mafia Marv from a gut read though. There was a post from Prom where he commented on something I was thinking so I gave him town cred, but I can't even find it now so it couldn't have been very strong. I hope to look at Holy/Wave/Prom tomorrow. I'll be at work all day so the 6PM lynch doesn't leave much time to come up with a preferred lynch candidate, but I'll try to do my best. I think austin may have buddied up to me when he defended me where I didn't really need defending. He amuses me though, so I'm not sure we should lynch him yet. @Foolishness, was there anything in particular that made you eliminate sandroba from lynch consideration? ##Unvote ##Sandroba + Show Spoiler [Potential Mafia Pairs] + {Foolishness,Marvellosity} {Foolishness,Promethelax} {Foolishness,Austinmcc} {Foolishness,Sandroba} {Foolishness,VisceraEyes} {Foolishness,HolyFlare} {Foolishness,Hapahauli} {Foolishness,Gonzaw} {Foolishness,WaveofShadow} {Marvellosity,Promethelax} {Marvellosity,Austinmcc} {Marvellosity,Sandroba} {Marvellosity,VisceraEyes} {Marvellosity,HolyFlare} {Marvellosity,Hapahauli} {Marvellosity,Gonzaw} {Marvellosity,WaveofShadow} {Promethelax,Austinmcc} {Promethelax,Sandroba} {Promethelax,VisceraEyes} {Promethelax,HolyFlare} {Promethelax,Hapahauli} {Promethelax,Gonzaw} {Promethelax,WaveofShadow} {Austinmcc,Sandroba} {Austinmcc,VisceraEyes} {Austinmcc,HolyFlare} {Austinmcc,Hapahauli} {Austinmcc,Gonzaw} {Austinmcc,WaveofShadow} {Sandroba,VisceraEyes} {Sandroba,HolyFlare} {Sandroba,Hapahauli} {Sandroba,Gonzaw} {Sandroba,WaveofShadow} {VisceraEyes,HolyFlare} {VisceraEyes,Hapahauli} {VisceraEyes,Gonzaw} {VisceraEyes,WaveofShadow} {HolyFlare,Hapahauli} {HolyFlare,Gonzaw} {HolyFlare,WaveofShadow} {Hapahauli,Gonzaw} {Hapahauli,WaveofShadow} {Gonzaw,WaveofShadow} Strictly from a meta standpoint, fabricated reads are not something mafia kita couldn't come up with, so the existence of the post doesn't say much to me. The content however is a different story. He appears to be saying a lot but he takes no hard stances that I can see. He is missing reads on me/Holy/Prome specifically, who I believe were the three mafia candidates that Foolishness came up with? That kind of surprises me because the largest part of his post is dedicated to Foolishness so you would think he would go a little deeper and have a look into those people Foolishness was interested in to try and get a read on him, at the very least. He finishes off the content with a direct question, something that makes me feel oddly more at ease because I know it's something I do a great deal (as people have been so kind as to pick out multiple times against me this game)---it's a somewhat relevant question given sandroba's (and Foolishness'?) absence and while questions like this, especially towards afk players are easy to toss out as either alignment, it's basically impossible to do ask question like that without showing some form of thought process. The problem here is I can't necessarily tell which as the question itself is kind of disjointed. The 'mafia pairs' business means absolutely nothing to me whatsoever. Kita is one of those players I inherently have a hard time trusting---this could simply be personal bias because I believe it was the first two games I played with him (The Game/PYP Dr Who) that I got pretty burned. I know him to be a very intelligent guy so I know what he is capable of, and I will admit I can't tell what he has in mind a lot of the time, so I work with what I've got in thread. | ||
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My last note on him in my QT was something along the lines of 'fucked if I know.' I want to say I lean scum on him, but I really can't tell if that's just the bias/paranoia talking or it truly bothers me that despite all of his posting I don't feel that I know what he's actually thinking. Kita is your vote on gonzaw anything but policy atm? | ||
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On January 22 2014 23:12 WaveofShadow wrote: I don't think I have one, honestly. My last note on him in my QT was something along the lines of 'fucked if I know.' I want to say I lean scum on him, but I really can't tell if that's just the bias/paranoia talking or it truly bothers me that despite all of his posting I don't feel that I know what he's actually thinking. Kita is your vote on gonzaw anything but policy atm? That should say sandroba. whoopsie. Too much filter diving | ||
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On January 22 2014 23:18 kitaman27 wrote: My vote is on sandroba. I suppose you could call it policy. I'd much rather lynch him now, over an individual who is playing if he isn't going to contribute. I also expect more than one big post if he does return. I hadn't looked into Prom/Holy/yourself since your names are coming up the most often. I will certainly change my vote from sandroba if I find someone that I'm confident about. Possibly even slightly less than confident. I really wish people would vote sooner though, even if they need to change their mind. This seems like it is going towards the path where everyone shows up with their vote an hour or two before the lynch. Can you explain the logic behind the bolded? On January 22 2014 23:21 kitaman27 wrote: If that's the case, Wave must be town! *wink wink* I see what you did there. | ||
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On January 22 2014 01:59 gonzaw wrote: Anyways Ehmm, I'm not really convinced by this. Yes, I cherry picked, and knew it is kind of pointless. I could have just said "read all his filters", but I needed to at least quote 1 or 2 posts (for those that can't be arsed to read his filters). You can easily read his filters (they are short) and come to the conclusion yourself. I'm wondering though, if you think the guide is wrong or something? You don't mention. Do you realize the differences between "scum Foo trolly start" and "town Foo trolly start"? Why do you insinuate his start this game is his "town trolly start" and not scum? If you vote him based on activity that's actually more lame. Town Foo isn't super active as marv either. This post of his is just one example I found of towniness in gonzaw---once again I'll state I'm not a huge fan of meta but I did find his earlier argument somewhat compelling. I also find it pretty unlikely for mafia to storm into the thread with a whole bunch of obviously cherry picked posts to implicate somebody, and then be fully prepared to admit it. | ||
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On January 22 2014 23:27 kitaman27 wrote: You guys are likely going to take the most time. Mostly split my time looking at 5 people last night, those 3 today (and possibly relooking at sandroba/marv) and leaving the rest out of consideration for now. I disagree. At the time of you posting that, Prome and I didn't exactly have long filters full of varied content---shouldn't be particularly difficult to come up with at the very least a cursory read on either one of us. I agree that Holy (at least to me) would take a little bit of time. Why would you say that Prome and I will take a lot of time? MAYBE Prome I can agree with if you wanted to do some meta-analysis, but I get the feeling you know me pretty well from this post: On January 22 2014 03:16 kitaman27 wrote: I haven't spent much time looking at Wave yet, aside from a couple filter dives, though I don't believe I had a scum read on him at any point. He had a series of uninteresting questions, but that seems to be a common trend in his town games, so I felt it was worth dropping. What should take a long time about giving a read? On January 22 2014 23:28 kitaman27 wrote: What type of answer were you looking for by the way considering you asked that multiple times? See the above. | ||
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On January 22 2014 23:38 kitaman27 wrote: Okay, I guess we choose to use our time differently? Not sure what you're getting at. Err reading? Looking at Prom at the moment. What I'm getting at is that I find it odd that you specifically chose three people who appear/appeared to be under scrutiny as lynch targets (named specifically by Foolishness and you, though I'm not certain if the entire thread thought/thinks so) as those you would wait to give reads on, when I would think that giving reads on said targets would probably be the most useful thing for town at any given point. I'm not even entirely sure the three of us WERE under as much scrutiny as you appeared to believe, but that skirts a fine line between subjectivity and objectivity so I'll let that go. | ||
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On January 22 2014 23:59 kitaman27 wrote: If that is the case, is there a reason that you haven't given a strong opinion yourself on either individual? Because I haven't been driven to through conversation, which is often when I do most of my reading/analysis. Very few people have interacted with me at all throughout the game, Holy himself has basically ignored direct posts/questions from me, and so beyond my own cursory notes I have made I haven't attempted to delve much deeper. Unprovoked I often make posts that go ignored until somebody decides to find something scummy in one of them. I am not you, however, so I am unsure why you think the comparison is fit despite what I said. Now, would you like to see what I have on Prome/Holy thus far? | ||
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Reading Prome's recent summary has actually inspired me, especially given how a few other players have come up with similar concerns about your posting. ##Vote: kita My vote on you atm remains independent of my thoughts on Prome at the moment. Whether you want the reads or not I'll go into Prome and Holy now, kita, so thanks for the indirect push on that subject. On January 23 2014 00:05 kitaman27 wrote: Prom, are you going to be posting a lot within the next hour? If so, I'll move on to Holy and come back to you. Ehhhhh I still don't understand this. | ||
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Until then, notes: Firm null on Prome - VE's points about the 'conversation starter' similarities to LX ring true with me, though he appears to have more of an actual direction this game. There was stuff about his earlier content I both liked and disliked, too early to tell on him. Still waiting on breakout case from him and others. Holy - No fucking clue---never played with him before. Some of the pseudo-anger displayed could be seen as townie but I don't really give it much weight---nitpicking Hapa seems really odd. Gonna have to look deeper on this. Be back in a few hours. | ||
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On January 23 2014 02:55 marvellosity wrote: yuh huh. you've been giving me the jeebies all game. but you're too active to lynch today in the end. Agreed. I also sort of saw something in your read of me. ##Unvote On January 23 2014 02:57 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't know man, the catchup posts seemed disingenuous, but I'm afraid I'm biased. Based on the posts I'm more willing to admit that I could be wrong about Prome, and yes the alternatives are looking better. The thing about Prome is that there's no POP to his posts - when he's town, when he thinks he's found something suspicious something clicks and his confidence shoots up and you can see it in his posts. I didn't get that feeling when he was posting about you. But again, I'm not sure how much of it is my own bias speaking. Foolishness/Sandroba/HolyFlare are three targets who are, in my opinion, well equipped to prove their worth D1 if they're town. That none of them has been able to do this is troubling to me. My problem with Prome as well is contained in here (regarding the POP, as well as the other players who should have...done more?), but I do feel good about the stream-of-consciousness reads as he caught up. I don't feel he was disingenuous. | ||
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On January 23 2014 04:01 austinmcc wrote: WoS, you around? Gonzaw, I don't think we can be sure what nobody defending HolyFlare means, but I think in the bigger context of this game, we can't get too much from that. Nobody is defending Foolishness either (I might, yeah, think I will), nobody really popped up to defend WoS or Prome while they were getting more attention, and for the most part it's people dropping off "x is scummy" after they've posted more, not actively pushing "WoS or Prome super town." Just not a ton of defending this game in general, imo. Gonzaw, 2 question to start off since you're active right now.You keep poking at Foolishness's past games. Do these things, dinky votes, horrible entrances, pointless posts, fit with scum Foolish? Also, honest question, if someone did these things vs did NOTHING, no votes, no real posts to be scummy or townie, etc, which player would you find scummier? Yup. What's cookin'? Random unrelated thoughts: I'm bothered by the fact that I'm not bothered by marv this game. Every game I've ever played with him he's been town and I often don't trust him for a while before he calls me dumb and then I do, but this game it hasn't happened. Can't tell if it's because marv is lurkier and done less than usual and/or because he has no need to 'take over' in a game like this with multiple people who can lead. Regarding the Holy replacement: I REALLY WISH people would not talk about being replaced in thread---it essentially artificially makes us give up what may or may not be a valid lynch target today and messes with the game. | ||
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On January 23 2014 04:16 VisceraEyes wrote: Not the tone - the act itself. Like, if he were town I feel like rather than do a stream of consciousness thing, he would read and have actual suspicions and post those. I disagree. I could swear he's done this specifically as town before (as have I) but I'd have to check which is kind of difficult for me atm. Either way he's given me enough that even were I able to be convinced before his return (which I kinda doubted) I certainly won't be voting him today. Like I get the we 'expect more' but is it not possible that Prome simply hasn't gotten to his 'POP' case yet? I don't allow this defense for people like Foolishness/Sandroba because they haven't actively been here. | ||
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On January 23 2014 04:32 gonzaw wrote: Austin, let's not chat. Tell me who you want to lynch. We need a lynch, YOU need a lynch (if you are town). lol Austin I was actually going to 'ask' you along the lines of the same thing. Who is scum? would be my question. (As far as marv goes, I don't have anything specific I can pick out from him, so probably 'usual' suspicion. I also haven't looked into him in any detail however) | ||
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On January 23 2014 04:39 VisceraEyes wrote: That's the thing though, we don't "expect more" we expect actual thoughts and opinions. Having suspicions of someone, and succinctly explaining them, takes actually LESS effort than doing a stream of consciousness catch up thing. It's that I expected LESS. Like, I don't know, it's hard to explain. But I'm not voting for him so ultimately it doesn't matter much. We'll come back to him. I want to post about him and kita again when I have more time later tonight, but I don't think either should be lynched. I feel like I'm defaulting to Foolishness now along with other people, and I worry because this feels like one of those games (and I think I mentioned this before) where someone is going to drop a massive bomb like an hour before lynch and completely mess with shit. If Foolishness does this, what will happen? | ||
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On January 23 2014 05:07 Foolishness wrote: Bringing light to the fact that your post was incredibly weird minus the last two sentences. It was really odd, and I don't think I'm the only one who said so. You're town and we all know it. Don't pull a gonzaw. 1) I explained why I kept my vote on WoS, since then he has responded and I liked what he said. He's being very affirmative and speaking his thoughts. When I first accused him early in the day I thought the opposite of this (also explained in my earlier posts). Now he's here, he's posting, and he's trying for the town. And that's the direction I started to lean towards when I made my big post. My vote on WoS was to affirm this suspicion, and also to get other people to comment on it. 2) Don't know what you're exactly referring to. But you were being trolly at the start of the day and it was impossible to know what your motives were. Your motives are clear now. As I also said in my recent post, you dying would answer a lot of questions. Not that that's going to happen anytime soon (or ever really). 3) Promethelax is scum. WoS probably not. Read above. 4) Nope. ##Unvote ##Vote: Promethelax No no. I'm not satisfied here. What exactly about my early posting would ever make you think I wasn't posting my thoughts then, but all of a sudden I am now? WHY is Prome scum? Spell it out for those of us who might be a little bit slow. | ||
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On January 23 2014 04:39 VisceraEyes wrote: That's the thing though, we don't "expect more" we expect actual thoughts and opinions. Having suspicions of someone, and succinctly explaining them, takes actually LESS effort than doing a stream of consciousness catch up thing. It's that I expected LESS. Like, I don't know, it's hard to explain. But I'm not voting for him so ultimately it doesn't matter much. Foolishness can you comment on the conversation VE and I had about Prome that ended with the above post? | ||
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On January 23 2014 05:31 Foolishness wrote: Sounds like you're making good arguments why he should be lynched. Look at it this way. Let's say I posted and said, "Kitaman is the best lynch right now!" what would you respond? You'd say, "wtf he's been pushing the town in the right direction and asking good questions." Now I say, "Promethelax is the best lynch right now!" (or Holyflare) what is your response? You say, "Eh, I feel like he's doing okay..." I don't see any arguments that show that Promethelax is pushing the town in the right direction or pushing a pro-town agenda. He's responded sure, but where's the conviction and the push to get something done? In relation to what gonzaw just posted, I feel like the above could be applied as well to either marv or snadroba----and actually starts to mesh with the idea that I haven't been feeling anything at all from marv all game aside from a little bit of agreement in some posts that I quoted earlier in my filter. Taking a closer look at marv. | ||
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On January 22 2014 07:50 marvellosity wrote: I think his post looks reasonable townie and there's a lot of effort. I'm not sure how much i agree with his reads atm kita lower, prome higher, marv much much higher, WoS ??, gonzaw higher But his reasoning feels townie - putting me where I am because I'm forgettable, while ego crushing I like it as an angle to take, it's non-routine i think he's capable of these posts as mafia, especially after the champions game, and the way he made a list at the end was actually eerily similar to how he made lists at the end of those posts :p but overall the meat of it made sense. and he's trying Yeah...I'm in agreement with a lot of marv stuff from his filter, and the timing at which he posted stuff. One thing that stuck out is the above. I'm wondering why marv gave me a ??? at that point considering it seems likely he thought I was town before that from his attitude towards me. Meh..maybe not. And then this comes after my return On January 23 2014 02:49 marvellosity wrote: Wave is waffling earnestly at length as I'd expect him to. Although he's only got one scumgame, I'd very much expect him to be more direct than he has been if mafia. I've been suspicious of him in two reasonably recent games for being slow and waffly (##, LXIV) and now it just seems it's how he opens day 1 as town. So maybe not obvious after all. I just think his thought process is transparent. Like he's posted a lot of his thought process, where's his agenda? Mainly with Holy that he seems angrier than was justified. But most of all it's the constant niggling at Hapa, especially with his last post(s) when Hapa was by a large margin the towniest guy in the thread. It's just not natural at all. Tbh I don't make a massive amount of his absence, I believe he'd be here posting as either alignment, so not that alignment indicative. I guess I expect marv to know...I dunno...more about me? Maybe why I was shocked he found me scummy in those games because I don't believe i've shifted my meta all that much in between games, and town-marv always seems to find me town eventually for all the right reasons. Yeah....would not lynch, but marv you left me high and dry---our palaver did not quench my thirst for you this game. (And it's basically become tradition at this point) | ||
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I'm quickly running out of time as I won't be here for lynch so I may have to sheep someone---my other strong townreads aren't here atm so it may be gonzaw. Gonzaw assuming you now hold my vote as well and could place it where you wanted, which of the two you mentioned would you put it on? | ||
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On January 23 2014 05:51 Foolishness wrote: I'm not upset with any of Marv's individual posts, but his overall play so far. There's a lot of 'overall play' I'm disappointed with atm, Prome included to some degree. Does it make those people scum? | ||
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So not marv/sandroba then. I might still be able to get behind that. His answers were good enough...they fit for lack of a better term, and I'm not bothered by the same thing you are regarding his read of austin but it's the early play that doesn't make sense to me. I can't reconcile his using the barest effort he put in for the first 30 or so hours of the game to first toss a vote up on me and give what appeared to me to be 'not the greatest' reads... I want to re-look over his case on Prome because I already know I thought hsi case on me was pure bunk and I said so earlier---I'm a little too self-focused. | ||
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Call it a sheep of gonzaw or thread sentiment if you want, if not you can use my current line of questions/suspicion including my earlier problems with his first case on me. This may be one of the most difficult games I've played in, and it's a good kind of difficult. ##Vote: Foolishness Be back a little bit after deadline. | ||
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On January 23 2014 08:34 austinmcc wrote: It's part paranoia, but I don't think we can quite read the entire game off of today's lynch. People here are hopefully decent enough not to ALL make scummy votes, or do super scummy stuff, and I know in recent games I've been bitten by assuming scum didn't want scum lynched or blah blah blah. It wasn't D1 and D1 seems super different cuz you don't want to lose scumbuddies, but...there are enough crafty fellas in this game that I worry about shifting 7-8 reads based on the votes/lynch. Not because I don't agree, but because 1-2 of those shifts are probably scumbuddies and we'll be wrong later. I find it to be almost universally true that on D1 lynches scum will just vote with the rest of town like good little sheep. On TL it's way more common to bus than to try and save a teammate. In others news, fuck yeah! I knew I had good reason to be thankful I didn't roll scum in this game. Sorry I wasn't around to help with last-second vote shenannies, though I did call the afkers coming back to mess with shit in the last moments of the day. Not that it matters much, but I can't say I would have been opposed to switching onto sandro were I here; I don't think I would have switched off of Foolishness to Prome though, especially considering I really didn't like sandro's post. I RAN that PYP game and I know exactly how Prome stormed into that thread and posted; the circumstances were completely different and incomparable. I don't know what any of that means for Prome though, likely we just ignore Sandro's late posting entirely and move on. | ||
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On January 23 2014 09:04 Foolishness wrote: I don't think that's actually possible. Look at the order of events. Starting at this point where there are 6 votes on me and 3 on Promethelax (keep in mind this is 12 minutes before the deadline): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=41#820 The six votes on me are (in order of when they occurred): VisceraEyes, gonzaw, WaveofShadow, Promethelax, marvellosity, Hapahauli. Now there is definitely some analysis to be done on how these votes accumulated on me but I will save that for later. At this point gonzaw started the switch on sandroba. Austin immediately joined in. Now only gonzaw was voting on me so I'm still winning by a landslide. It's possible that they did this thinking there is no way a bandwagon on sandroba would start, but I highly doubt they would have that attitude. That is, entertain the thought for a second that gonzaw/Austin are actually mafia. They could just hammer the vote on me to ensure a town lynch (incredibly easy for gonzaw to do, Austin could just toss his vote on Promethelax or somewhere else). But that didn't happen. Then marvellosity switches his vote as well. At this point I have 4 votes and Promethelax and sandroba both have 3. Hapa and Promethelax also follow shortly after. It's definitely clear that the switch to sandroba was started and enforced by towns. This was not mafia bussing each other. The big question to answer here is: what reason would mafia have for switching off of me onto sandroba? If I'm town, there's definitely no reason to. I'm hovering around 50% of votes (HolyFlare's vote isn't going to count), it'd be so easy to just ensure that I got voted. The only scenario where the mafia would have reason to switch is if I'm also mafia (which isn't true). But that scenario, however absurd, would be reasonable, thinking that I'm more valuable to the mafia than sandroba is at this point. Thus I am in the belief that the votes on sandroba were mostly, if not 100%, town. Including my top suspect Promethelax. This seems to make a lot more sense given how that went down. What does this all mean? Mafia could have ensured I was lynched if they were on the vote switch, so why bother vote switching in the first place? No, mafia did not vote switch. What's more likely is that the mafia were voting for me but not on the switch (VE, WoS) or the mafia were all voting for Promethelax (me, sandroba, kitaman). Note that kitaman was going against sandroba during day 1. Remember that assuming Promethelax is town, mafia were in a great position at the end of the day. Town Foolishness has 6 votes and the runner up at 3 votes is also town. This is great for them cause they get to decide who's getting lynched. If I'm mafia why is there not more votes on Promethelax and where is my team to defend me? Sure I got kitaman pushing for Promethelax but I was in a desperate situation there. Things wouldn't have unfolded the way they did if that was the case. So instead this means that mafia were likely already voting for me. But they wouldn't want to go with the vote switch since that was on a mafia. VE is the only person that fits this bill since he was strangely absent during lynch time (and he posted 15 minutes after the lynch). WoS would be gone but I did feel his vote on me was questionable (will look into that later don't worry). Mafia were voting for me and were sitting comfortably, and when a vote switch happened they weren't around for it. Problem here is the fact that there is nothing that precludes scum (assuming they were around) from realizing where things were going and jumping aboard. Scum on TL bus. All the damn time. It's what they do, and I wouldn't put it past them to do it here too. | ||
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On January 23 2014 09:13 Hapahauli wrote: But Wave, rather than speculate on whether a bus could have occurred, which votes do you think are possible bus votes? Surely we have the time to look into this now. Of course. I'm not in anyway stating that is for sure what happened, but I'm not crossing it off my list or considering it unlikely. I've seen way too much retarded bussing, and just because of the supposed calibre of player in this game I refuse to discount it. Now considering the lynch happened with only 5 people and gonzaw is all but confirmed town that only leaves the other 4. The 'hammer' happened too quickly for me to put much thought into it. The scenario I could see here is an indignant scumteam member looking at sandro's 'contributions' this game, realizing where it was going once the push began and jumping on for supercred (supercred, considering how most people it seems will be viewing this lynch, ie all 5 voters being likely town considering circumstances), especially since snadro didn't seem to do much to change things after he popped in, spewed some crap and left. The other scenario is sandro giving 'permission' to bus once he himself realized where it was going once gonzaw started up. In terms of likelihood I can't honestly be certain if one scenario seems more likely than another here, as there are many people in this game I have never seen play scum and so marv's saying 'only bad TL scum do this' doesn't mean much. | ||
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On January 23 2014 09:14 austinmcc wrote: I have not seen as many D1 busses as you, apparently, WoS. But yeah, the way the switches were working, I don't think ANYONE could see thread sentiment. I would happily have lynched someone else with 5 minutes to go, don't think I even voted until right towards deadline. I think the push was sudden enough that mafia either hops on or not, but only out of gut reaction, not because they could really see where things were headed. I mean, it was fast enough that, apart from foolishness, there wasn't really any push BACK that I saw. Because pushing back is DANGEROUS when shenannies are involved, and scum are often really concerned about how a strong push away from someone will look later on in a game. That's what causes ridiculous bussing much of the time. Again I want to make this clear, I am not assuming that the last 2 scum are among austin/marv/prome/hapa, but I would not be surprised if that list contained one. | ||
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On January 23 2014 09:16 gonzaw wrote: I started this conspiracy theory in a joking manner, but lol it does have lots of points in favor of it. Although, I think getting VE lynched comes before that. I just don't see VE as town here. He did absolutely nothing since his Prome "read". Just pressured Foo' a little bit, then did absolutely nothing. He randomly says "Holy/sandro/Foo are interesting guys", and then doesn't give a shit and flings his vote at any of those (not at sandro though coincidentally) without any reasoning whatsoever, and doesn't give a fuck about justifying himself even when I try to get it out of his tongue. Then he shows up at deadline, is there, but wastes his time posting some questions to Prome and doing shit all. Had his vote parked on Foolishness, did shit all with that. He even asked Prome about sandro being suspicious or something, yet he had vote on Foo'. Doesn't do any more shit until sandro flips, then comes here and posts ONLY to defend himself. Yeah...he dies tomorrow. I guess I can put some pretty colors and quotes later on. It'd be funny if the scum team is sandro - VE - Prome and they have been setting up this whole show lol I mean, Prome found VE scum initially with "shitty" reasons and the like, right? (when he ignored WoS, etc). Then VE found Prome suspicious initially right? They were the only 2 "going against each other" initially. Yet nothing came from that. VE then promptly forgets about Prome, yet somehow says he still has a scumread on him. Prome ignores VE as well. When deadline comes, VE ONLY talks to Prome about sandro. It's like he's setting stuff up, he even asks Prome: And look! Prome responds! Prome's vote is on Foo. VE's vote is on Foo. sandro has a very weak vote on Prome and disappeared off the face of the earth. Foo and Prome had the same amount of votes there (although Foo was leading). Prome then promptly tried to explain himself to Hapa so Hapa would unvote him and Foo would gain the most amount of votes! And well Foo later gained 6 votes to Prome's 3 votes Doesn't seem too good to be true!? Whenever sandro flips, Prome and VE look good for life! If Prome flips, VE and sandro look good too (VE for the initial "suspicions" on Prome, sandro for the vote) If VE flips, Prome looks good (for that initial push) I FOUND OUT YOUR SECRETS SCUM!!!! lol this is incredibly fun OH jesus it's PTP: Dr Who all over again | ||
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On January 23 2014 09:22 Hapahauli wrote: No no, this is still all speculation. We need to talk about votes. Which specific votes in particular look like possible bus votes? Which look like town votes? You can talk all you want about the scumteam, but it's pointless unless you determine which votes are the ones in question. Alright. Gonzaw is clean, likely austin as well because there isn't even any time in between those votes to discuss anything if austin were scum, and it really would be a horrible thing to do to your team if he were considering where the therad was at that time. Right around then, (page 42) Foolishness can be seen to be basically defending sandro. Again question becomes, is this scum blatantly defending a buddy here, or town pushing his own idea of what's good? Impossible to tell. Moving on, marv and hapa votes. There was enough time in between where gonzaw did his thing and the 3rd/4th votes popped on that either of my earlier scenarios could have taken place, especially if 2/3rds of the scumteam are around. Pure voting analysis with my 'speculation' in mind does not eliminate either of those two, however it does likely preclude them BOTH being scum because the only way that happens is if sandroba told them both to bus him immediately. Plausible, not likely (since it eliminates the lone 'indignant scum member' case). If that did in fact happen, we may very well be in trouble, but given the thread's (and my) townread on Hapa I don't think it's the case. Prome obviously cannot be eliminated either, and may in fact be most likely considering all that went down, and his considerable decline in posting quality right around the deadline. Conclusions: I believe one scum to be on the sandroba wagon---either marv/hapa OR Prome, and one more on Foolishness (or is Toad). | ||
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On January 23 2014 09:32 austinmcc wrote: I like hapa's chutzpah here, but am too content and lazy to engage in answering I do too, and that's why I'm answering. | ||
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On January 23 2014 09:38 Hapahauli wrote: @ Wave OK so we've identified 3 possible bus votes. Marv, myself, and Prome. You apparently don't believe that I'm scum, so what about the other two? What are your reads on Marv and Prome? Is there anything about their voting that's sketchy, or are they just possible bus candidates? Secondly... Why can the scum not be on Prome's wagon? Why is it more likely that there's 1 scum on the sandroba wagon than 0? I have to go back and look at more on marv/Prome in detail when I get a chance. Scum (aside from sandroba) can be on Prome's wagon, I corrected the post. As for why it is more likely to be 1 scum on sandroba than 0...call it an educated guess. Scum are pretty damn paranoid about where their votes end up and what better place for a vote to be? | ||
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On January 23 2014 09:48 gonzaw wrote: Hey kita, I think your Mafia Combinatorics thing might be useful here. For example, VE and Foo just can't be scum together. I believe Prome and kita can't be scum together either (BOTH kita and sandro being on him and kita doing nothing, specially not jumping on the sandro wagon (when he already has a vote on another scumbuddy) doesn't make sense). We could cross other possible scumteams out, and maybe get somewhere. I could get in on this. Why can't VE/Foolishness be scum? Purely interaction-based? | ||
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On January 23 2014 09:49 Hapahauli wrote: Do that. mmmkay. Do you think scum have the time to be paranoid in a 5 minute vote swing? If they're around, yes. | ||
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On January 23 2014 09:51 gonzaw wrote: We also have to consider the possibility of Holy/Toad being scum. If that's the case, then there would only be 1 more scum at deadline besides sandro, and that changes things (for instance, that scum alone can't do anything and he can't plan anything, etc). I'm kind of gearing towards H/T being town. Specially with Holy's last vote. It seemed genuine (that a host would tell him to vote). Even more, it would be a good opportunity to vote Prome, or Foo, or some other guy right? But he obviously wasted it on me. If he's scum, seems like a waste opportunity. Ehhhhh....I see what you mean but then he also sets up his replacement to look like absolute shit in the opposite case. I imagine if he was scum a host would still tell him to vote, and I know I certainly wouldn't lie as either alignment. | ||
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Just popping in to say that I have been following the thread on my phone, and I wish I could have been posting during this point because I have a great deal to say---it'll have to wait until later tonight though (even though nobody will be around). I do plan on being extremely active tomorrow, so hopefully you guys will be around and don't drop off. I have maybe 5 min. Anything anyone wants that doesn't required anything in depth atm? | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:41 kitaman27 wrote: Wave knows he's still going to be alive tomorrow. Only mafia know they won't get shot. ZOMG ZOMG! Troof. I slipped cuz I am most obvious D1 lynch. More slipping below: Gonzaw, I won't get a chance to talk to you it seems before you die, but GG. I may have to fight the posthumous incoming tunnel on VE that inevitably comes tomorrow, so don't yell at me too much from obs QT, k? | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:44 WaveofShadow wrote: Troof. I slipped cuz I am most obvious D1 lynch. More slipping below: Gonzaw, I won't get a chance to talk to you it seems before you die, but GG. I may have to fight the posthumous incoming tunnel on VE that inevitably comes tomorrow, so don't yell at me too much from obs QT, k? LOL and I actually slipped 'cause I meant N1 kill. haha that's gonna look AMAZING | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:47 gonzaw wrote: Wouldn't it be funny, if scum wanted to create WIFOM by letting me live, even after I've been saying so much that I'll die tonight? Wouldn't that be funny? Very very funny *wink* *wink* I WAS GOING TO TYPE THAT MYSELF AND THEN DECIDED AGAINST IT | ||
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I can't say there won't be more of it from me, but at the very least it'll be interspersed with 'better' stuff. | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:54 gonzaw wrote: kita is not untouchable You have my permission to touch kita all you want Yours is the only permission that matters. | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:56 gonzaw wrote: I also doubt you'll find VE town.. ....well...you did before (and it baffled me then).. ....ehmm..just read more carefully okay? See when you talk to me like that, how am I supposed to believe you truly want me lynched? <3 Again, there's things about VE's play earlier that REALLY led me to believe he was town. Of course I am going to re-read and consider, however. + Show Spoiler + One of these games I'm going to have to try and go with the opposite of what my reads and gut tell me---it's often in these cases where I firmly believe something that goes WAY against the grain of the rest of the entirety of town that I am wrong (see Vanesco in WC2 or Seuss in....## I think? Though those were 'noobie reads' and I often get burned on those specifically). I will read VERY carefully Gonzaw, this I promise you. | ||
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On January 24 2014 07:21 Toadesstern wrote: EBWOP I don't recall anything WoS said during that period, which isn't anything good that was supposed to be "the fact that nothing stood out is bad", not "there wasn't anything that wasn't good" Phoneposting just to say this is horseshit and pissed me off as I read it. You don't remember anything I said from around the lynch BECAUSe I WaSNT rTHERE for it | ||
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On January 24 2014 07:48 kitaman27 wrote: Not being present for the lynch isn't exactly a strong defense. I won't be apologetic absolut that, its not a defense. When I can be around ill be around simple as that. If toad is reading casting doubts on me and wanting to lynch me let it at least be for legitimate reasons | ||
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On January 24 2014 08:09 gonzaw wrote: ##Vote: VE I guess Wifom and unsubstanntiated for now but this may be why hapa instead of you (if VE is actually town) Its what I didn't post earlier with all caps. Sorry for more spoeculative shit I promise ill tone it down for wjhen I'm back Eta 4 hours | ||
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Two things I can say with the utmost confidence right now: 1) I am NOT getting lynched today. 2) I will be spending the rest of my evening posting reads and responses to whatever I feel is necessary, whether or not people are around right now to read them. If they go ignored then so be it. If there are people around right now, I'd love to talk with you, but just know it may be difficult for me to do two things at once. | ||
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On January 24 2014 12:48 gonzaw wrote: Oh....now you just make me want to test that! It would be a pleasure. To you I say, bring it! (But in all seriousness I say that in the sense that I will prove my innocence and you will not want to lynch me, rather than goading you into simply lynching me to prove me wrong. ) | ||
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Post 1 The above is so I can keep track of where I am, what I've put into each post, and possibly make it easier for other people to dig stuff up in what is sure to be a LONG series of posts I'm going to start with Prome and VE since I promised reads/dives of those two yesterday. VE: On January 21 2014 11:49 VisceraEyes wrote: Counterquestion Promethelax. Why VE and not WaveofShadow, who posted this at approximately the same time as the post in question. I'm starting from way back here. I know this one has been done to death but this was the stat of where my townread of VE came from. May have been an obvious point but both VE and I came up with this at the exact same time. I know I am town. Usually when you have two people of similar mindsets in a given scenario, coming up with things independently, it means they are of similar alignment. I know I am town, ergo, VE must be town. Moving on: On January 21 2014 11:22 VisceraEyes wrote: If we're talking meta, pressure won't mean anything to sandroba. He'll either play or he won't, and if he's town he'll probably find some scum. People like kita voting for him as a joke will probably not pressure him as much as you seem to think. Now this one is slightly more interesting. VE and I again both came up with this at the same time. One must ask oneself here, given that we know now the alignment of one sandroba, do you really think VE and I would both defend him at the exact same time with basically the exact same post? Originally this was simply another thing to add to my believe that VE was town (see thought process above this one), but now I believe this proves that VE and I cannot both be scum. (Never mind us both leaving votes on Foolishness and 'disappearing,' that would be ludicrous scum play). Once again though, thinking of this in context of a flipped sandroba, I agree this makes the both of us look bad---it is very easy as scum to toss this out as an innocent reason to remove suspicion from him early in the game, but I would look more closely at the formatting here. VE simply says that sandroba will not respond to pressure, whereas my post (that has been much maligned) On January 21 2014 11:21 WaveofShadow wrote: As far as I can tell, he doesn't respond to pressure on himself this early so it wouldn't matter. I only offered that as an aside anyway, my main reason for not wanting to vote him is because I literally don't see one. Hapa, do you see yourself getting shot N1 in this game? actually talks about my own personal reasoning for not voting him---I am actually holding myself responsible here. IF VE is scum and my earlier inference was wrong, I think this post arguably implicates him more than myself. On January 22 2014 01:39 VisceraEyes wrote: Regarding Wave, I mostly have a townread on Wave, but am biased because I'm super town to him. It's a failing. This post belies a towny mindset. Nothing much more to say about this one---I believe a post like this probably isn't easy to fake as scum. It's a known fallacy to gutread someone who thinks you're town as town, an obviously doesn't always apply given the people in this game life Foolishness who were suspect for throwing out random-ass townreads, but as scum it's certainly easier to throw out those townreads without coming up with a specific reason such as this. It's all in the mentality. For most of the rest of D1 aside from the time around the lynch, VE didn't do a great deal. I could point out some more posts that make me think he could be town but they'd be weak proofs to add to the above. I do want to point this out: On January 22 2014 10:03 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm not trolling - that was a genuine thought I just had. Town gonzaw is well familiar with my play, and I honestly can't remember a game he was scum in. But in the games I've played with him before he's been able to correctly deduce my alignment (generally town, but he's caught me as scum AND SK before) pretty much every time that I recall. So this game is an anomaly because he's NOT correct about my alignment this game. You think maybe you can stop being hyper critical of like everything I do please? <3 The beginning of some conspiracy theory business, a type of post he continues with into N1 upon his return. People are overly critical of conspiracy theory-posting and I can understand the basic reasons why (cluttering up the thread, conjecture, etc) but others have mentioned that they offer a unique thought process and bring information and ideas to the thread that may not come up otherwise. This may help to jog an idea from another townie, or they could even possibly be right every once in a while. I don't believe conspiracy theory-ing is inherently scummy, and I personally do it all of the time or the above reasons (and also because I generally tend to toss into the thread whatever comes into my head). There is a scum reason for VE to toss random conspiracy-ish suspicion on gonzaw, obviously, but I believe as scum he would be aware it looks like shit. As town he's not worried about how bad he looks, he just wants to get possible ideas and info out there. Here he also begins to complain about gonzaw's beginnings of what for most of the day and night has been a vicelike grip on VE, which came to a head when VE ragequit the thread earlier. I'll come back to that. | ||
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Post 2 On January 23 2014 02:10 VisceraEyes wrote: I could MAYBE vote for HolyFlare. I'm teetering on the cusp of voting for Foolishness. This is VE's return nearing the end of D1. Where in all that is holy did this even come from? He started to suspect Foolishness a little bit but Holyflare? And what happened to Prome? On January 23 2014 02:51 marvellosity wrote: I'd very much like to hear from VE as well re: Prome Seems kita and marv noticed too, and they get a couple townie pts imo. On January 23 2014 02:57 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't know man, the catchup posts seemed disingenuous, but I'm afraid I'm biased. Based on the posts I'm more willing to admit that I could be wrong about Prome, and yes the alternatives are looking better. The thing about Prome is that there's no POP to his posts - when he's town, when he thinks he's found something suspicious something clicks and his confidence shoots up and you can see it in his posts. I didn't get that feeling when he was posting about you. But again, I'm not sure how much of it is my own bias speaking. Foolishness/Sandroba/HolyFlare are three targets who are, in my opinion, well equipped to prove their worth D1 if they're town. That none of them has been able to do this is troubling to me. Here some ideas of his have begun to resurface and I remember agreeing with this post, but in context it seems really weird and out of place. I think the absolute worst thing VE has got going for him in his filter is his 'round-the-lynch' shenangians, Vote-swapping all over the place with zero justification. In my opinion however, that is the ONLY scummy thing he has going for him at this point in his filter. It's not small, but it is enough to ignore everything I've posted about thus far? Marv may have had the right of it here...the fact that VE didn't in fact care at all about the lynch. This could mean it was because he is scum and didn't care, town and didn't care, and/or was simply too engrossed in his other business or the other game. I'm not sure how alignment indicative it is for VE, but I think it makes marv look even better as an aside. The beginning of VE's depressed/martyring stage. On January 23 2014 09:17 VisceraEyes wrote: Whatever just lynch me next, I'll help you guys decide who to lynch after me. On January 23 2014 09:18 VisceraEyes wrote: Whichever one looks the worse of Prom/Foolish is where I'm at now, I'm going to reread the thread when I wake up tomorrow. I think this is where I was at here as well, but I digress. It was mentioned that a scummer who just had a buddy get lynched is going to show up angry and depressed in thread; this was even a point brought up against me when I raged at the end of D1 in the aborted LXIV. I find this to be ludicrous. If a scummer is being browbeaten by people like gonzaw and Prome into submission before the second day even begins, why bother to respond at all? Why bring a negative attitude into the thread where people are likely to pick up on it and say the things they have? This may be WIFOM, but way more often than not, I find emotion such as this is not faked, and does not come from a fake place either. I've seen it come from scum (DrH in Bluelightz) and I've seen it come from town (way too fucking many to name). At the very least I can say that VE is pissed off here because he is telling the truth. It does not 100% mean he is town telling the truth, but I personally believe it to be so. The idea that VE may be well aware of his meta and is faking the rage is certainly prevalent but it certainly doesn't appear to be fooling anyone (aside from me) if he is scum so why bother? DOES VE ragequit as scum? His discussion with Prome at the end is one thing that really doesn't make him look good since Prome was actively REALLY trying to engage him and get something good out of him and he quit on it, whatever his reasons may have been. Ultimately when gonzaw said it was VE's 'trial by fire' he has the right of it---his actions and behaviours don't always quite line up but if he doesn't show up to steer us in the right direction (one way or another) he is going to be lynched today. I for one would be very glad to talk with him to figure him out and prove things to the thread once and for all. The only way I will be voting VE today is if he gives up entirely; until then I consider him town. VE doesn't always do things well, and doesn't always do things right; Prome mentioned that he's 'not bad:' On January 24 2014 05:59 Promethelax wrote: I just don't see it. This is so not the reasonable conclusion to come to from this day one. I can't balance out VE being not dumb and ve believing this. I get that you'd consider it because paranoia happens to all of us and I've considered a lot of weird stuff this game, I just don't that this theory is the one you think is most likely and most worth pushing. You've been convinced since early day one that I am scum and haven't updated that read at all through the game, it isn't evolving instead you are working a crazy conspiracy theory to make sense of me still being scum after essentially being the hammer on a scum lynch, So VE why is this the most likely situation for you? Why am I more scum than fool? Why was Kita mentioned but dropped? but I believe that it is entirely possible for a town VE to play this way. | ||
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Stop calling 'fluffy' shit mafia-indicative. It's null. Everybody posts 'fluff.' Some people more than others. Some people don't even really realize when they're posting 'fluff.' I think one of the only times I can think of where mafia actively tried to post fluff to shit up a thread was BH as Wade Fell in The Game. Otherwise mafia have plenty of other ways to ruin a thread, and that's by injecting false reads, misleading the thread and looking good themselves. Why would anyone actively post arbitrary bullshit if they're constantly going to be called out for it? Two reasons: 1) They don't believe it's bullshit. You know, 'cause the idea of what's bullshit and what isn't is PURELY SUBJECTIVE. 2) It's fucking IMPOSSIBLE to keep every post full of perfect content that will please everybody. In this game and in a lot of others, people are always getting called out for posting things that other people don't find important or up to their standards. Sometimes people actually do post nonsense but it ends up being for no other reason than they feel like it. It may shit up the thread a little bit but that alone is not enough to derail a lynch or mislead a town. No, shitting up a thread is things like long-drawn out arguments, attempting to actively steer discussion off-course, things like that. Things that are often accomplished by non-fluff-type posting. Sometimes I post fluff. Sometimes austin posts fluff. Sometimes kita posts fluff. Sometimes VE posts fluff. SOme people post higher frequencies of it than others, depending on game timing and circumstances. For the people who don't (or believe they don't), I guess you're all just better people than me. /rage /fluffpost | ||
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Post 3 (Oh I can;'t edit but I wanted to mention in there something about the act of martyring itself---an extremely townie trait considering recent trends.) Moving on to Prome: On January 21 2014 11:41 Promethelax wrote: I have but you guys had to go and produce actual content while I was bitching about having no content. Stellar start to the game, eh? In all honesty everyone is suspicious given how little content came about in the time when I couldn't post (couldn't = had to eat sushi with the girlfriend) the fact that the vettiest vets in vetland couldn't figure out how to start a game of mafia gives me the willys. Again, the sort of stuff that's been rehashed over and over but I bring up some of it anyway. VE originally suspected Prome because of his townread of me and not of him---difference between VE and I was that I believed that kind of thing possible whereas VE did not. VE also (correctly in my opinion) brings up the example of mafia Prome in LX with his 'conversation starter' business (which VE didn't even attempt to debunk). Maybe it's not the fact that Prome is putting in effort to create a conversation starter here, but why does he feel the need to brag about it, and shit on the rest of town in the process? 'LOOK AT HOW TOWN I AM, STARTING STUFF WHERE THE REST OF THE VETS COULDN'T!' Unnecessary. The talk about policy early on I originally had issues with but ultimately I let it go as it doesn't appear to be particularly alignment indicative. Before disappearing for a day, he calls kita scummy and says he doesn't like Foolishness for obvious reasons. Prome then returns triumphantly, defends himself from VE and votes kita. I then join him (which was called a sheep vote by someone + Show Spoiler + who shall remain nameless right now but oh boy am I gonna get to him VE seemed to think these reads were forced but I didn't then nor do I now think so. He came back, provided reads as he was catching up, and I found them useful. On January 23 2014 00:20 Promethelax wrote: 20-22 Bro bro, bro. BRO! WoS asked Hapa a question in a 'tone' that seemed curious to me. Which didn't do. That made VE more worth pressuring than Wave. It isn't a big point. It doesn't say a lot but I happen to believe that the question WoS posed Hapa is more likely to come from a town WoS than a scum one. So I went after VE. Along with that attacking VE was more likely to generate content in the thread which was my real goal since WoS is more likely to have a reasonable conversation with me while VE is more likely to do silly things and go crazy. Crazy VE says crazy things. Those things can cause thread interaction to happen which is good. Two reasons to accuse VE over WoS 1. VE seemed slightly more suspicious because WoS said one thing I liked while VE said 0 things I liked. and 2. VE is more likely to respond with OMGUSes and strange ideas which would, I hoped, jumpstart the thread. because I was pressuring VE who felt wrong and not WoS who did not feel wrong. I really don't understand what it is that I need to explain more. WoS had the same thoughts as VE but had a thing that made me think he was WoS there was nothing to suggest that it was VE and not VE so I pressured VE and not WoS. /logic okay, I'm done responding to this point because I think I've explained it enough for you to get. If you have another reason to accuse me I'm happy to hear it but this one is played out either you buy my explanation or you don't. I can't explain it more because I've done it two or three ways already and, well, that is all I've got. If you don't believe me lynch me and if you do believe me stop trying to lynch me over this. Find something else worth lynching me for or don't. I was writing up a thing but I'ma just +1 this post instead. Right now, no order within the lists: Hapa Marv WoS Gonzaw VE Sandroba Austin Kita Holy Fool Looking at the reads section of this post, I'm kinda wondering now what has made Prome completely drop his townread of me and reverse it. All I found upon looking was this: On January 23 2014 14:47 Promethelax wrote: But he is thinking like town. Lynch VE I think. No interest in lunch. Also: maybe WoS? He thinks I could be s um with what in my mind was hammer vote. I think you'll agree that me+fool =/= scum pair so if I was scum I could have left my vote on fool and lynchedvhim overs and. So because I refuse to immediately consider a bunch of people (who frankly don't deserve it) confirmed town I'm instantly scum? Odd. He doesn't even bring up my posting re: sandroba which I would argue is more incriminating. He focuses mostly on VE for the rest of his filter but I'm pretty shocked that #2 on his scumlist gets no consideration whatsoever. Anyway backing up: On January 23 2014 07:22 Promethelax wrote: I keep wanting to think you are town but you come up with bullshit like this that isn't even remotely true. I cannot believe that town foolishness actually believes these things as they are not remotely true. ##unvote ##vote: foolishness I simply cannot connect the idea of foolishness being a good town player and him being town while saying things so blatantly false about so many players in this game. This sounds familiar. That's right, it's the exact same rationale he uses against VE later on in the day! Now while this doesn't indicate scum, I'm not sure of the viability of applying the same heuristic to multiple people like this---essentially every time somebody doesn't perform to your liking, you try to call them scum? I maybe should give it a little more credence because this heuristic is entirely meta-based and I know Prome is good at meta, but where is the proof? For us laypeople, how do I know that Foolishness is better than this? This kind of thing falls into 'stuff that doesn't pop out' territory. I can throw this back at him; I've seen Prome play, and I know he is capable of blasting people away with insane cases. He hasn't done it this game. Scum? (See how easy that was?) On January 23 2014 07:35 Promethelax wrote: It's because I'm kinda confused. It is what sand is pulling out in my filter. In pyp I had to do something to move town in the right direction (and had 140 pages of thread to work with) and things popped out to me. I had sheep to lead and scum to find. Here no one has made me really hard for their lynch. Although sand bringing in meta from my strongest ever town game is a little funny, I wish I was that good all the time. Here he is 100% right and honestly this would probably be one of the main reasons I would have found Sandroba scummy at the time: that case he made was terrible. Would a scum Prome be the one to drop the perceived final vote hammer at lynch time, but also be the one that began to set that lynch in motion? Kinda stretching it. Hmm. Actually... On January 23 2014 07:26 austinmcc wrote: His filters are markedly different from the two games, yes. But that's just a single game and he replaced into PYP LOL but didn't here. I feel the exact same way about the difference, but I discount that as solid evidence more than you seem to. You basically just chopped out a single thing that Prome has done this game, pasted it next to a thing from one past game, went NINETY FIVE PERCENT SCUM. All while, at least to me, you two are the leading candidates for lynch. Talking about someone else who might be scum, or talking about why Prome is scum beyond his kita vote + comparison to a game he replaced into, might go a ways towards making people more convinced on Prome or less convinced on you. Austin brings it up. Wayy fewer townpoints for Prome, sorry dood. | ||
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On January 24 2014 14:25 austinmcc wrote: WoS, if you're still up, can I ask you to undertake a funky made-up task for me? Pretty please? If your answer is yes and you're up and active, when you finish going through whatever you want to go through, I'd like for you to play along with this scenario. I am a cop. I have a red check on gonzaw. I tell you this. You smack your head and go, "Aha! It all makes sense now. I should have known Gonzaw was mafia, because __________." If you so choose, you can keep going and add, "Also, now that I know the mafia team was sandroba/gonzaw/?, the third member is almost certainly _______." EVERYONE ELSE I'M NOT A COP. I DON'T HAVE A RED CHECK. Just curious. If it were to turn out that Gonzaw is mafia, when you look at his filter, what would give you that, "man, I should have seen this thing because it points towards mafia Gonzaw" feeling? You know how I feel about your funky made-up-tasks, but at least this one doesn't involve you being a female hot-dog vendor and actually appears to be relevant to the game somehow, so let me finish Prome then I'll do it. | ||
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On January 24 2014 14:25 austinmcc wrote: WoS, if you're still up, can I ask you to undertake a funky made-up task for me? Pretty please? If your answer is yes and you're up and active, when you finish going through whatever you want to go through, I'd like for you to play along with this scenario. I am a cop. I have a red check on gonzaw. I tell you this. You smack your head and go, "Aha! It all makes sense now. I should have known Gonzaw was mafia, because __________." If you so choose, you can keep going and add, "Also, now that I know the mafia team was sandroba/gonzaw/?, the third member is almost certainly _______." EVERYONE ELSE I'M NOT A COP. I DON'T HAVE A RED CHECK. Just curious. If it were to turn out that Gonzaw is mafia, when you look at his filter, what would give you that, "man, I should have seen this thing because it points towards mafia Gonzaw" feeling? Actually let me give a preliminary answer to that right now: I would say Gonzaw got framed. There is no way in hell I can believe that the way he has been playing currently points to a scum gonzaw---that's one conspiracy-theory-rabbit-hole I just won't fit my fat ass into. I'll read his filter *shudder* once I finish what I'm doing just to be absolutely certain but I don't see my answer changing. | ||
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Post 4 I do so love talking to myself. This will be the last one until tomorrow--- I'm exhausted and I think I will have given people enough to consider/talk about in the few hours I am not here without flooding the thread TOO much. On January 23 2014 08:06 Promethelax wrote: Yes you see I had a policy I was hoping not to enact because we are all better than this. You see? But we had to lurker lynch, it ended up being right but I'm pissed at sandroba about it. I wanted a high quality game with crazy good scum and town play. Scum (or anyone else) getting lurker lynched d1 is disappointing to me. So, on one hand Prome DOES kinda look bad for this, but it's such a minor point that, even were he contradictory wouldn't be something to nail him to the wall for. Foolishness goes for it anyway...it's little things like this that may have me looking at Foolishness as my D2 lynch, but I'll get to that eventually. On January 23 2014 14:51 Promethelax wrote: Fuck. English hard. VE isn't interested in the lynch, let it go with even votes, just doesn't seem right. Which is why he might be scum. WoS keeps pressuring me after a lynch that should look really good for me. He isn't terrible (though he isn't top rung in this game in particular) and so he should know that hammer voting scum d1 usually indicates town. And yeah, I didn't actually cast the deciding vote but I thought I did. Already brought it up but yeah, it's this again. "So and so isn't bad but look at what they do here, must be scum!" Here's Prome's reason to apparently drop me to #2 lynch and once again, the SAME REASON AS ALL OF HIS OTHER SCUMSPECTS. Now we have an issue on our hands. On January 23 2014 15:22 Promethelax wrote: To the bolder: hohoho. Scum calling out their own tactics. Sand defends fool, Kita. Attacks prom, gonzaw Buddies WoS Between me/fool I'm trying to think of who I'd see as an easier target from a scum perspective if both were town. I think I'm harder to lynch thn fool since I have more thread or essence and a better excuse to be bad while fool has poor thread presence and less excuse to be bad. Thing is I'm pretty sure sand is one of those player who has a vet hard on and would know fool way better. Than he knows me (though in three games with him I've voted him d1 twice when he was scum and bossed the fuck out of pyp once). Still think he'd respect fool more than me so I'm not sure his choice to attack me over fool is deeply enlightening. You know, the bolded is the same thing I've been considering with me/VE. But I find issue here with the fact that he thinks that scum sandroba actually would think to take on one of town Foolishness/Prome and push them all the way to a lynch. I believe this was just a bandaid post by sandroba trying to get SOMETHING out there before the end of the day but it's what did him in precisely because it was it so weak/forced/bad. He comes to a similar conclusion as I come to in the end (the post is useless to try and gain info from) but I don't see the fact that sandroba chose to 'attack' him with such a shoddy case as proof of Prome's towniness. Prome's long case on VE (not gonna copy it here) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=51#1002 Some of it is fairly decent---he;s right in that VE around the lynch looked crappy and he didn't do a whole lot in the day, but then he is MASSIVLEY hypocritical with the stuff that compares the two of us: Prome: Again people have already commented on VE's early defense of Sandroba but it is worth bringing up again now that Sand has flipped. This preemptive defense of Sand's play seems a little too aware; while Sand could do this as both alignments if I were scum with him this game I'd be worried that he would play his usual shitty scum meta (as he ended up doing) and would be hyper aware of people talking about it. Bringing up the defense of Sandroba to call VE scum but not me. I stated earlier how this can actually be reconciled (in my VE post) yet Prome doesn't bring me up AT ALL. AND STILL THINKS IM SCUM. Prome: So this post happened. VE thinks I am biased and that makes me more likely to be scum. And yet, for no reason, I am town to him. Hapa said he thought this was indicative of a townie who was bothered at being accused for something that didn't make him scum but I see it as just as likely to come from a scum mad at a townie calling him scum for a reason that he feels could be equally applied to a town player. The above having been stated I don't think WoS and VE can be scum together because if I was right to call VE scum for something that WoS did too and both were scum it would be a valid read on both of them. If VE flips scum I'd say WoS is not scum. So while I agree with the conclusion again, the way he got about getting there is so massively wrong I don't even know what to say. There are MULTIPLE things that both VE and I do throughout this game that can be compared, yet Prome doesn't even bother talking about them, he simply cherry-picks what he wants to refer to here and just lazily makes reference to me, setting himself up for what could be a double mislynch if VE flips town. Like...maybe he can come back and explain this himself because I actually don't understand the ligic behind point he is trying to make here AT ALL. At this point despite some decent parts of his cases, this VE case is not the polished triumphant hammer I would expect from Prome (at risk of sounding hypocritical, this is NOT a sticking point for me---I am generally not great at meta). It reeks of an easy case on an easy target which IS scummy. On January 24 2014 06:06 Promethelax wrote: Kita: do scum slips exist? You know who else nitpicks at obviously stupid things? Foolishness. Then comes the prodding of VE, and while I like the attempts to engage him (in that I don't think he expected VE to rage out necessarily) I don't think is necessarily indicative because even as scum it's very easy to pursue the attack on a downtrodden townie---the worst case scenario for scum there is he may find some of his points weakened, the best case is probably what VE did to himself. Conclusion: Prome is scummy. There are things that I liked about his filter: the engaging of the thread, the stream-of consciousness catch-up, but overall there are way too many glaring inconsistencies, and faulty periods of play that can't be explained away simply. I've already explained why in my opinion Prome does not deserve a free pass based on his position in the sandroba lynch. Eventually to come: proper defenses to stuff like Foolishness/Toad. More filter diving (Foolishness/Toad/marv warrant a look in that order) Anything else that may be necessary. | ||
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On January 24 2014 22:12 gonzaw wrote: @Steve WoSniak: Ehmm. Seems you are trying way too hard to justify some of VE's behaviour....when it's basically injustifiable, you just say "it makes him scum" or "I'll ignore it". Actually, yeah, it is. Way more important than "Does VE ragequit as scum?" speculation and "Scum VE wouldn't post shit on gonzaw with shitty reasons because he'd know it'd look bad therefore VE is town" I also wouldn't really talk too much about that "if sandro is scum he'll do good later" stuff you both posted. Yes, if both of you are scum it's weird......but like really it seems to just have no importance at all when looking at the big picture or at stuff that matters (like....the lynch and shit) It's obvious I tried to save my scumbuddy Foo by trying to get him lynched, then get my actual sandro buddy lynched, to make me and Foo look good so then I can fake having a change of heart on him and ride that town cred to victory Of course. Then you and I have vastly differing opinions of what is important and what isn't. We should only be focusing on what happened around the lynch and ignoring everything else? Kinda strange because aren't you waffling on which of 'the five (now four)' are immune or not? (Personally I am of the belief it's only you and probably austin based simply on voting). I could also swear there was talk about how voting analysis shouldn't be the only thing we consider for the lynching today...? I'm not going to dump everything else from a filter (mine, Prome's VE's) just because of what happened in a one hour span of time. Now that I'm up, I think it may be time to move onto defenses and Foolishness, unless anyone else has anything to talk about with me/add. | ||
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On January 24 2014 22:29 marvellosity wrote: Some of this Wave stuff is so bad. Parsing it now. Yeah, expecting this. Not really caring, nor am I going to stop so do as you will. | ||
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On January 24 2014 22:34 gonzaw wrote: So you don't think VE randomly voting Holy for no reason, then randomly voting Foo for even less reasons, then not giving a shit and parking his vote on him, is important? You really think stuff like him shitting on me "coming from town VE who wants to put info out there!" is more important than that? If VE comes here and says "I'm scum we are conceding bye", are you just going to say "Oh, good ol' town VE shenannigans! Ta-ta!" or something? As much as I appreciate your snide attitude, yes of course its important. There are, however behavioral matters that can also be taken into consideration that YOU are ignoring. We are looking at this differently. | ||
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(Also important to consider, though it's up to you whether you want to or not, but by defending VE and doing what I am doing, not only am I drawing all attention to myself, but I am also attempting to eliminate one everyone's strongest scumreads from the list, forcing everyone to move down the list----to me.) | ||
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Marv I went through filters and I went through what I found to be important one way or another in isolation from voting analysis because it's been done to death, both by me and everyone else in here. No one has been able to draw effective conclusions one way or the other---some people still suspect austin for example, while I don't. | ||
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On January 24 2014 22:53 gonzaw wrote: That might be right, you don't have to instantly assume the guy is scum by that stuff... ...but you are calling him town for it. That's a big difference, that's what doesn't make sense. I consider him town due to earlier actions and the stuff in his filter I talked about, not for the vote switching. I am weighing his entire filter and to me, the other stuff I mention outweighs the potential scumminess of the vote switching. | ||
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On January 24 2014 22:55 gonzaw wrote: If you want to play this game, I can play it too. Tell me, if you and VE are scum, what possible play can you make to salvage anything this game, huh? Well again, aside from us being absolutely retarded leaving both our votes on Foolishness if we're both scum, I could do exactly what I'm doing, except instead of hard defending VE, I either ignore him and let everyone else push while I bring up shit distracting everyone on Fool/Prome, or I jump on the bandwagon and admit I was wrong. VE probably has to show up and actually attempt to defend himself here one way or the other, but I have no idea whether he is going to do it or not; I doubt what I say would be enough either way. | ||
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On January 24 2014 22:56 marvellosity wrote: This is absolutely the money question (to the bolded) As an aside to your 2nd paragraph, VE was pretty muted towards me in LXIV where we were both town. I think he was in a huff that I was talking to rayn so much, although I'm not entirely sure that was the actual reason, but it's what he told me :p Town-VE and Mafia-VE buddy with marv. Town-VE attacks marv if he thinks marv is mafia, and Scum-VE won't attack marv because marv can take him apart. So that shit is kinda neutral. Going back to your first question, I'm gonna ask something to Wave instead: do you think the game-state + how other players have been talking to VE warranted a ragequit? Debatable. I can understand the frustration (given I just experienced just a little bit of gonzaw's high-and-mightiness) but VE and I may simply react differently to tunnely pressure. Marv you remember how angry I got at the thread for nearly lynching me in...## I think it was? I fought like hell against that lynch but I was experiencing stomach ulcers at the time I was so pissed off. Not everyone can endure tunneling like that, especially if they feel railing against it is a futile effort (from a town OR scum perspective). If anything I would imagine being town and experiencing it is MORE frustrating because you KNOW everyone is wrong and there's not a whole lot to do about it. In conclusion does it warrant the ragequit? Tough to say. From my perspective? No, not really, but is it something VE would do? Marv if you are a VE expert, can you tll me if it is something VE would do as either alignment? | ||
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Do you think all of the 'WoS is wishy-washy' cases hold water? Because I can tell you right now that shit pisses me off (maybe less so because the players who talk about it---Fool/Hapa I believe don't know me that well). My D1 is usually pretty bad. I almost NEVER have strong scumreads on D1 and I'm not going to fake confidence about them if they don't exist. If I'm wishy washy about something in thread it's because I'm not afraid to show the rest of the town my thought processes on a matter, which I would think is fairly obvious that that is what I am attempting to do. | ||
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On January 24 2014 23:05 marvellosity wrote: yeah VE ragequits. As either alignment. It's whether I can see it as an emotional response I understand. At the moment it seems over the top and artificial. And see that's where we disagree. I find stuff like that is rarely artificial. I'm not even sure I can think of a faked ragequit or anything like that in recent games (though you know better than me meta-wise, obviously, so maybe an example exists?) Gonzaw, from my perspective, town brings themselves closer to losing if I let you go through with lynching the both of us. Hell even if I'm wrong about VE, you bring yourselves closer to losing if you lynch me. Of course I'm going to fight this, I don't know what you expect from me. Lay down and die so you do nothing productive for the next 2 days and then realize you were wrong? | ||
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On January 24 2014 23:12 gonzaw wrote: If you are town, I expect you not to make bad defenses of scum VE. If VE is somehow town, I'd expect you to make a better defense of him, or counteract that by finding the hidden 2 scum we are apparently completely missing. Yeah gonzaw, things don't work that way. You can be as salty as you want that I haven't given you what you want in the way that you expect it, but you sure as hell can't say I haven't tried. From my perspective I am doing exactly what you expect. | ||
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On January 24 2014 23:12 kitaman27 wrote: I think in the end you have to push yourself to pick a read even if you're not 100%. I wasn't rock solid on Prom and I had sandro in my top 3 scum list, but I still stuck with my lynch because that was the player I had the best feeling about at the time. It may get me in trouble in the long run, but sitting back and allowing others to determine the fate of the lynch doesn't do you any good when 3/10 of them have an anti-town agenda and the other 7/10 likely are just as puzzled as you. I don't do things like that kita. Never have. Maybe if I was around for the lynch I would have jumped on sandroba in a heartbeat from the terrible Prome post, but I wasn't and I can't expect you guys to take my word on that---before that point I did not have anything i was confident enough to push in the thread. | ||
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On January 24 2014 23:13 marvellosity wrote: If I really spent a lot of time, I could go find a whole bunch of games where VE "ragequits" as mafia. But you'll just have to take my word for it, because... effort for no reason. No, that's fine obviously. What you need to understand is that I believe that could have come from town, and just because we may disagree on that doesn't make me scum. Nor does my different perspective (and methodology) of providing reads make me scum either. I believe if you really consider (and normally I wouldn't ask anyone else to do this because I don't have much faith in meta, but I do you are particularly good at it) the way I play in my past games, you should be able to find reconciliation with the way I've played here. | ||
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On January 24 2014 23:20 marvellosity wrote: Why do you think I'm fencesitting like a baws? ^^ I guess mostly I'd like to see the rest of your content. And for VE and Toad to come play the game some. Well the rest of my content will probably look like the earlier parts of my content, so if you didn't like that much I can't say for certain you'll like what's coming. Still going to do it though, if you guys are done w/me for now. | ||
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On January 24 2014 07:55 Toadesstern wrote: sorry my bad, I read really quickly and I just didn't remember anything from you. I assumed I must have forgotten anything but if you weren't there than you obviously weren't there to begin with. However, it's the same problem I'm having with VE. I can see a good reason for mafias not to post during the last 20 minutes. It does sound a little convenient. Like thsi is Toad's main reason for calling me scum, because he didn't 'notoice' what I did when I wasn't around. When I correct him he says 'whoops but you weren't around for thsoe last 20 min and mafia would totes do that.' If he actually bothered to read my filter he'd know it was a lot longer than20 minutes. Just horrible misrepresentation here and he brings up absolutely NO other rationale before ethis point, just saying 'I found him scummy for some reasons.' he LATER brings up a case, but this looks like he picked a target and is finding the rationale later. | ||
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There IS NO OTHER CASE. I'm scum for Toad simply because I couldn't be around at time of lynch. | ||
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Anyway gonna do a full filter of Foolishness now. | ||
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On January 23 2014 05:07 Foolishness wrote: Bringing light to the fact that your post was incredibly weird minus the last two sentences. It was really odd, and I don't think I'm the only one who said so. You're town and we all know it. Don't pull a gonzaw. 1) I explained why I kept my vote on WoS, since then he has responded and I liked what he said. He's being very affirmative and speaking his thoughts. When I first accused him early in the day I thought the opposite of this (also explained in my earlier posts). Now he's here, he's posting, and he's trying for the town. And that's the direction I started to lean towards when I made my big post. My vote on WoS was to affirm this suspicion, and also to get other people to comment on it. 2) Don't know what you're exactly referring to. But you were being trolly at the start of the day and it was impossible to know what your motives were. Your motives are clear now. As I also said in my recent post, you dying would answer a lot of questions. Not that that's going to happen anytime soon (or ever really). 3) Promethelax is scum. WoS probably not. Read above. 4) Nope. ##Unvote ##Vote: Promethelax Hey so Foolishness, I'm still doing what you described. Am I still town? If I'm not, your townread was weak to begin with because I haven't changed my behaviour any, and it was just a method to brush off the crappy way you attacked me and called me scum and then started to back off in the first place. On January 23 2014 05:44 Foolishness wrote: Marvellosity. He's posted a bunch and hasn't done anything. Can you tell me without looking at his filter something that marvellosity has done for the town this game? + Show Spoiler + The real answer to your question is "both" Are you going to vote for HolyFlare then? Looking at this now makes me want to try even harder to confirm VE's Foolishness/Sandroba/Prome scumteam. Prome's early push on Prome was okayyy, but then he doesn't do anything else about it even when prome returned to thread. makes sense from the POV that he wanted to let his buddy come back and start to look better while making his own early case look weaker, and if so mission successful. His question about if I'm going to vote Holy looks like a deflection given the above scenario. (Toad/Prome/Fool can't all be scum so once I'm done I'm going to have to consider everything at once---just going through it atm) On January 23 2014 05:57 Foolishness wrote: I already said that I'm prefectly okay with HolyFlare getting lynched. And by perfectly okay, I really mean okay. As in, if guys are that convinced that Promethelax needs another chance then please let me know now so I can move my vote. Same as above. Looks horrible if VE is right. On January 23 2014 06:39 Foolishness wrote: It's nitpicking cause I said that his opening was fine (when he first started posting). And I posted that not too long after he was here and posting (check the timestamps). Now you're claiming that I am, but am not but maybe I was interested and oh here's a quote from Liar Game with some analysis that is only tangentially related to my argument. At least Gonzaw's tunneling has conviction behind it (which is why he's town and you aren't). Show some conviction if you think I'm mafia. I would not bat an eye if sandroba died. The problem is is that Promethelax is mafia and there is solid information on why. What's the information saying sandroba is mafia? oh he's inactive. Well great, welcome to day 1 sandroba. Moooooore deflection, this time from sandroba. And he hard defends sandroba the rest of that day if i remember correctly. Question then becomes is that something a mafia Foolishness would do? I'd be inclined to say no tbh, but in discussions other people have had about Foolishness I get the idea that a lot of 'classic' tells that wouldn't necessarily work on most people would still work on Foolishness---like defending a scummer. That one is just gut feels though so I'd probably have to give the above a null or even slight towniness since I find hard defending a scummer that will be lynched a little bit ridiculous---unless he started defending him assuming he wouldn't pick up enough steam and by the time it did it was too late to stop...? On January 23 2014 06:53 Foolishness wrote: 1) To see how people would respond to it, but mostly to see how he responded. I quoted his first post (which is suspicious as I've already explained) so that you would know where I saw the evidence before I revealed my whole hand. 2) Which 2 guys? I'm pretty sure I explained everything here. + Show Spoiler + On January 22 2014 07:19 Foolishness wrote: Here's what I think is going on this game. There are quite a few questionable people in this game, but by eliminating some obvious town players things start to make more sense. Towniest of towns Hapa VE Kitaman Hapa is by far the most town person in this game? Why, put simply if you read his filter he is here, he is active and he is pushing pro-town agendas. This is seen because he is generating conversation, trying to organize the town and get everyone on the same page, and questioning suspicious players where appropriate. This is not a matter of debate if you have read the thread. Kitaman is similar in matter and this has already been brought to light by a few players. Actually when I started reading the game yesterday his posting reminded me a lot of myself. Slight trolly attitude to try to get things moving, but when push came to shove he was there to call people out on their shit. Now, if you want to read into that and say, "But Foolishness, Kitaman is usually a strong analyzer, posting paragraphs of information and analysis about a person's behavior and actions" I got nothing to say back about that yet. Though I'm sure time will confirm what I think here. The thing with VE is that yes, on his own some of his posts are suspicious. This one in particular made me raise an eyebrow: + Show Spoiler + On January 22 2014 01:16 VisceraEyes wrote: Morning guys. Marv no, I don't think it's the same kind of Prome that I'm used to seeing. What it reminds me of is that game I was the mayor and lynched the piss out of Prome D1. He was a lurky little shit that game, but I caught him on something very similar to what I noticed this game. Like I think it's awful that I have to ask this, but did you read my post on him? That being said, I at least dig one of his targets. I asked Foolish about his thoughts on this same matter and what I got is "lol you and Hapa townies" which is definitely NOT what I was after. He answered my question as if he'd read the exchange between us, but left me with a feeling that he hadn't actually read anything at all. If I see one more person say they're going to ignore my posts, I won't be responsible for the outcome. You have been warned. where the first two paragraphs seem really out of place and forced, though the last two sentences of the post read very town. However I think if you just read through his filter and analyze it as a whole there's nothing to be afraid of. Is he pushing any sort of mafia agenda? No. Does it feel like he doesn't have the town's best interest in mind? No. Does it feel like he's actually trying to figure things out? Yes. Now I can see why some people have shed some suspicion on him (unlike anyone calling Hapa or Kita mafia), but he just does not feel mafia, and he's definitely interested in the game. Questionable players Austin sandroba marvellosity Holyflare Gonzaw This is roughly in order of most to least town. Austin and sandroba might as well be afk until 3 pages ago, but since coming to the thread both have had strong appearances. I'm okay with them right now because they have brought things to the thread, and it is also obvious that if they continue their activity then they are town. If they keep going afk for long periods of time then start to worry. But I don't feel like that will happen. The following 3 people are all in the ? category. Marvellosity and Holyflare in particular because for all that they have said I don't feel they have really contributed much. Even as I'm writing this I'm thinking back, "what has marvellosity or holyflare done this game", and I cannot remember a single post they have made. That's a bad sign. Anything mafia indicative off the bat? No so much, but then seem to be here without actually being here. Gonzaw is only questionable and not mafia because of his recent vote on me. As kitaman properly pointed out, gonzaw brought up a lot of new information about the case on me. That's good and productive. But as he also pointed out, gonzaw just kinda did nothing with it. "Oh here you go I did some research, now don't mind me anymore let me go be trolly and lurk some more" is that kinda vibe I got from that. mafia Promethelax WaveOfShadow I will go into a little more detail here. What about this post is good? He says generic things that anybody can say. Also the "Let's do something" seems incredibly forced. What does he hope to accomplish by saying that? I don't know (most likely he's mafia) and it feels like he's trying very hard to sound like he's vested in the game (when all he would have to do is just post whatever his thoughts are). And then there's this post as well. Which fails to do nothing but ask more questions of which he never followed through on (neither of them really followed through on to be honest), when he could do have done something like actively push Promethelax to say something of substance. The thing about Promethelax is that his first post is a big pile of words and nobody said anything about it besides WoS which was just a passing remark. Here's the post again: + Show Spoiler + On January 21 2014 11:35 Promethelax wrote: Okay broskis, this is just silly. We know how to start a game and it isn't this Mafia Scum inspired baseless lynches shall we discuss policy? Why yes we shall because you all will actually have to commit to something. Since we aren't the run of the mill hokey dory TL types I think its time we set a few ground rules: there should be no discussion of policy lynching lurkers. We simply lynch them. If everyone is good enough to be shadowed everyone is good enough to play the game and we cannot tolerate lurkers. It is my hope that this particular policy doesn't come into play since, obviously, we are the best that TL has so we should play the best as well and lurking simply isn't the best. We are all good enough to carry a town and I would like us all to be that good this game. Play your hearts out gentlemen. I would also like a non-aggression pact. That is we all agree to play nice since I'd rather like to be good role models for our newbies. And yes, I know I'm scummy for posting this, does someone want to come out and say it so that I can defend myself and we can move on with this game and make actual cases on each other and find scum. Unlike WoS I was excited to roll scum in this game, I figured I'd have an excuse to be steamrolled but if I did a good job it would be a huge accomplishment but no, I'm town, I have to figure things out. I would much rather lie to you all but fuck me, I don't get to lie to you. I gotta work for my money. So get it together boys, we are policy lynching lurkers, we aren't going to be mean to each other and we are going to catch scum. And we'll start with Hapa making a case on me, why? Because its tradition is why. Promethelax even admits that his post is awful and that we should call him out on it. Sounds great to me! This kinda bait is definitely a mafia trait and if he thinks he's posting bad then we should definitely lynch him for it. The reason being, if he knows his post his bad why is he making it in the first place? His initial post accomplishes nothing and says nothing and only adds fluff to the thread. I am also bothered by his most recent thread post: Because all his reads feel very convenient. There is nothing in his filter that gives us new information or his original thoughts. I'm leaving my vote where it is for now, honestly Promethelax is the best lynch right now because the case on him is the strongest, but I need to hear opinions on WaveOfShadow while we have the time. Who we are lynching today: Promethelax, WaveOfShadow. If they died probably not a huge loss: marvellosity, HolyFlare, Gonzaw Everyone else deserves to live another day at the least. In case you're talking about something more recent, the mafia are in the following people: Promethelax, HolyFlare, Sandroba, Marvellosity. WaveOfShadow's vote is really meh but he's probably town and I'm over-thinking it (and I'm also probably biased from my day 1 read of him). Everyone else is town, if you want an explanation then ask and say who. I don't have time to respond to all your tunnel arguments. Hey look at that, I'm still town! What changed in the time between then and when you started calling me scum? Something else that bothered me is this is one of many times Foolishness says "I'm maybe overthinking this" or something of the like. SO I'm not allowed to be wishy-washy but Foolishness is? Thems looks likes some double standards to me---especially if Foolishness ever calls me scum for being wishy washy. On January 24 2014 11:46 Foolishness wrote: Feels like this isn't the first time he's gone back and forth on something. Hey look at that! On January 24 2014 04:52 Foolishness wrote: I don't see any reason why all five of the people on sandroba aren't exempt. Yes I know what I said about marvellosity yesterday and that I would lynch him, but as I pointed out in my previous post here it doesn't seem likely for mafia to hop aboard the sandroba bandwagon. Really the most likely scenario of this happening is the mafia bus of sandroba, and given by the votes and who was voting that would probably mean that I'm mafia as well. I suggest reading my post I linked above again because based on the timestamps and who was voting and why I think it's clear that everyone on sandroba is town (as unlikely as that sounds in terms of raw numbers). Any of the people that switched had good reason to keep their vote on me. Moreso, as I pointed out, it is likely that Promethelax is town because mafia were sitting good with myself being the top lynch and second in line (Promethelax) also a town lynch. The overall point here is that the sandroba bandwagon was not initiated by mafia nor exacerbated by mafia. Mafia were sitting pretty and never expected that sort of switch to happen in the last 10 minutes. Furthermore the votes on sandroba were so close (1 minute apart for the last two) that it's very unlikely Promethelax was like, "oh I can vote for my mafia scumbuddy to gain credibility cause he already has the most votes". No, things happened too fast for it to be planned out like that. No scum would have moved to him at the start, no scum would have moved to him during the middle, and no scum would move to him at the end. Based on what happened, I suggest we look at WoS as well as VE. I like the arguments brought up against VE so far and I think a lot of the same thing can be applied to WoS as well. In particular lazily throwing his vote down on me. Here are his posts about me after I started posting in the second half of the day up to the point where he voted for me and left. What is disturbing about this is his wishy-washy behavior about me. He says he doesn't agree with my case on Promethelax, and that's fine in itself, and he also says he wants to "lynch me less". Then before voting for me says that my answers were "good enough" and that they "fit for a lack of a better term", and that it's my "early play that doesn't make sense to me". If my answers are fitting and good enough why are you voting for me? Just cause you don't agree with me on a person being mafia does not make me mafia. I was actually really surprised when he dropped his vote on me, who tells someone that they have good answers but they are still lynching them? What is also interesting is that he's entirely sheeping a read and admitting to it. Admitting to sheeping a read does not exempt you from sheeping a read. Does it seem like he has his own opinion on the matter? Does it seem like he has an idea of who to vote for? No. Look through his posts, he never really accuses anyone, and never says that he thinks person X would be a good lynch (as I said above, he never said that directly about me either). He dances around a lot of people, myself, marvellosity, Promethelax, etc. Sure, he threw his vote down and knew he wasn't going to be here before the deadline, and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is that he had no opinion on who should be lynched before the vote. Also his vote started a landslide, since there were already 2 votes on me, and at the time the next closest persons had 1 vote. This is a critical vote because it started the pile up on me, and when people came back and saw this they started piling on (even though those people piling on are likely town cause they all jumped ship to sandroba). Ok so here's where Foolishness actually comes out and gives reasons as to my scumminess. problem is they're terrible. yeah I sheeped, yeah I didn't have strong convictions before I left, but guess what? Them's the breaks. He then attempts to blame me for the way the votes started to go down on him? lol. When I asked Gonzaw who he wanted me to vote for I thought he was gonna say somethign like sandroba at the time considering where the conversation was at the time. I was surprised he said Foolishness, and I was ok with that since overall there were things that I both liked and didn't like about his posting at the time, but if someone I found supertown felt good about a Foolishness lynch, considering I had no strong convictions I had no problem with that. On January 24 2014 05:44 Foolishness wrote: Right, and what I'm trying to say is that the timing does matter here. Sheeping a read with 10 minutes left in the day makes more sense because you're in a high pressure situation. I don't think WoS was in a high pressure situation even if he had to leave. Why not just vote for who he thinks is most scummy even if it's not Promethelax or myself? Would it seem odd to you if instead his last post was, "Foolishness lynch doesn't seem right, case on Promethelax is weak, I'm voting *insert random other player here* because he's not contributing, not active as usual, saying silly things, whatever"? No, that wouldn't be odd cause that would be a townie's mindset. I'd have to go back and reread his filter to be sure, but from what I remember it seems like he was contributing a lot to the current lynch suspects but never bringing up suspects of his own. So should I have randomly just brought up Hapa as a lynch just to be different? Wtf. I've already explained about my conviction so going over that again is useless. Foolishness wants me dead because i'm wishy-washy. Got it. On January 24 2014 05:48 Foolishness wrote: If I'm mafia what is my game plan to win this game? That'd probably mean the other member was on the sandroba train and I'm hoping that he can cruise the next 4 lynches to victory. If my mafia buddy is in the pool of Toad, Kita, VE, WoS then we're pretty much screwed since they are already under suspicion and I can only survive so long and divert so many lynches before I get punished for it. If one of you, austin, marvellosity, Promethelax, Hapa is mafia I'm pretty sure they will reveal themselves over time. Not tomorrow, maybe not even day three, but they will show it eventually. Off of long term behavior. Precisely why I don't believe all of the sandroba lynch people are immune. Deflection at its finest. On January 24 2014 12:01 Foolishness wrote: Also consider how sandroba's vote went down. He comes in and slaps his vote on Promethelax when I'm at 3 votes. Why would he do this? As I explained before, mafia were very happy with the votes at that time. Town Foolishness is in the lead with 3 votes and it's looking bad for him. Second in line is town Promethelax with now 3 votes with his. No mafia is being pressured and it's looking good for them. He didn't want to vote for me since that would look like a bandwagon vote and he would be suspicious after I flipped town. After that happens he can play up that I was right about Promethelax and push for his lynch on day 2. Furthermore, let's say that somehow I didn't get lynched and Promethelax got lynched instead. Now he can just play up that I'm mafia and that I misled everyone and plan to get me lynched day 2. Sandroba's vote at the time makes perfect sense in conjunction with the line of reasoning that mafia were very happy with the way the votes were going day 1. Which correlates to the switch on sandroba being a town move (probably 100% town). Just a little bit on Foolishness's vote analysis: I love the assumption that he's town here despite sandroba's vote making more sense if Foolishness is scum. Amazing. (Makes slightly less sense if Prome is also scum, and the bus theory is a little convoluted but not impossible). Of course he addresses this right after but not properly. On January 24 2014 12:10 Foolishness wrote: It does make sense if I'm mafia, and I said this before. But as Austin correctly pointed out who is the third mafia and why wasn't there a bigger push to save me? Sandroba's vote is a comfortable vote, if the mafia needed to save me there would have been a push to save me. They were letting the town do the dirty work for them. If votes were mostly on mafia all that day (especially in the prome/Fool/Sand theory) then there couldn't be any big push to save him at all. I don't think I've EVER seen a big push to save ANY scum, and I've already said as such in my post-lynch vote analysis. Scum are hyper-aware of looking like shit with their votes so I find scum would more often bus than try to actively save a scumbuddy. Marv says only bad scum on TL do this but I disagree. Anyway, would lynch today. Probably over Prome. | ||
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On January 25 2014 00:12 kitaman27 wrote: Additionally, a "mafia push" to save you can't exist if you're mafia, sandro is mafia, and the third player is either absent or has no thread presence. Earlier I brought up the "who is the third mafia" question as well, but I don't think that's solid enough reasoning to leave you out of consideration. I essentially just said this. Gonzaw I haven't looked at Toad extensively; I mentioned somewhere in my Foolishness post that I'm going to have to consider which two of the three are the most scummy and move on from there. I haven't looked at Toad in detail yet so he's next. Technically I have been *mostly* considering each scumspect in a vacuum but obviously that can only go so far and there are some posts throughout that consider the teams. Either way I get the feeling that you are not going to be satisfied with anything I do, so I definitely have an understand of VE's frustrations. I'm going to keep doing it and keep pushing and you can continue to push back. | ||
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On January 25 2014 00:42 austinmcc wrote: (If you want a break from people not being satisfied, maybe, you could always look into what, in a world where Gonzaw got shot N2 and flipped red and everyone who has ever hosted a mafia game came into thread and said "Yes, Gonzaw was red," we all missed about Gonzaw and what should have tipped us off that he was mafia. And then also maybe maybe his third buddy if someone would then slot into place particularly easily) (I know there I other stuff going on, but I'd actually still be interested in your thoughts there) Austin, why? Even before the sandroba business I thought he was town. A bus makes absolutely NO sense here, so I don't understand why you're bringing it up to me. There is no way I see Gonzaw getting lynched today (or likely the rest of the game..? Dunno if he was alive long enough I suppose maybe we'd be forced to reconsider) or for the next little while at least so I don't see a point in the topic. Are you baiting something? You haven't asked this to anyone else. I hate being baited because I feel belittled by it, and it's bad enough that I have an inferiority complex in this particular game. | ||
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On January 25 2014 00:43 gonzaw wrote: Yeah marvy is town Wos pleasd understand my vocal resistance,to your and VEs theories when they hinge and all 3 scum bussing all of them and no one of them even bothering to mysslynch a townie on fricking D1 I do understand it. Doesn't mean I'm going to stop, that's all. On January 25 2014 00:45 austinmcc wrote: Not just bussing but SANDROBA bussing instead of them bussing sandroba. In that situation, I don't know why anyone would have Sandroba work to kill off 1/3 the mafia team so that he could get to D2 and....continue to do nothing for the rest of the game? There are aspects off that team that you can MAKE work, but I don't think Sandroba works in that setup, based on his push of prome, the strategy that would have to be behind it, and his late return with the LoL game stuff. It works if you consider an apologetic sandroba who pissed off his scumteam by lurking or who considered a bus like this woudl be a good idea. Again I believe if Prome is scum then sandroba's case on him was PURPOSEFULLY weak. | ||
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On January 25 2014 00:49 austinmcc wrote: I don't plan on making the thread 80% gonzaw could be scum. I don't think you ARE scum, and it's not about finding actual reasons why you might be. It's more just trying to get folks I want to hear more/different things from to post on odd subjects, to critically look at filters that aren't being critically looked at (people READ your posts, but always as you being towngonzaw. Maybe coming from the other side pulls up neat things that we aren't seeing, emphasizes certain parts of your posts, whatever). I also just want to see how his thoughts go when he's considering something like that, which will end up being relevant to my read on WoS. At worst, this is something dumb that, for good or bad reasons, can affect my vote today. At best, something interesting gets found, it affects other people's votes, whatever. lol. And you don't find the fact that I continually go against the thinking/grain of the thread 'odd' enough, huh? | ||
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On January 25 2014 00:55 marvellosity wrote: This might hold water if Prome wasn't one of sandroba's original targets. That's a very long play that I find really quite unlikely. Yes to the question about Foolish. And I suppose you're right about prome/sandro but can you really call what sandro did 'targeting?' It was an early game read. Hell if anything bussing is EASIER at that stage in the game; he very easily could have just stuck with prome to try and stay consistent (which is also something scum often strive for). | ||
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I mean it can still be oddball in such a way as you get what you want but maybe it should be thread-relevant? | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:01 marvellosity wrote: This is stupid. Is it scummy? | ||
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I'm getting a little burnt out tbh, and I get the feeling nothing I've done has even budged anyone's opinion of me or of their current reads. Can we have a discussion about something that doesn't require me filter diving everyone in the game? Because it seems I'm going to do that anyway eventually and it's probably going to be useless considering how it's gone so far. | ||
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(Because it's not me) | ||
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We lynched Prome and town lost. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:15 gonzaw wrote: WoS, please, let me get this straight: You think, there are 3 scum: X, Y and Z. You think scum X bussed scum Y ALL D1, without wavering, without changing his vote or even attempting to change his mind, and doing so up until the final minutes of the lynch You think Z casted suspicon on Y, and 30 minutes before deadline decided to bus Y You also think, that immediately after that, Y decides to come to the thread and bus X back. All of this, while this is the votecount at the time: (X): 4 votes (Y): 4 votes (Z): 1 vote You are going to tell me, not a SINGLE townie had a vote on them by the end of D1 (not taking into account Holy's wasted vote). You are going to tell me, that scum made a plan, where they cross-bus each other, vote NO ONE other than each other, end up with ALL THREE OF THEM having votes, and (again BECAUSE THIS IS IMPORTANT) end up with NO TOWNIE HAVING A VOTE ON THEM AT ALL. Not only this, you are going to tell me that scum were completely happy with this (check Prome and Foo's behaviour at the deadline, they were pretty calm about it). You are also going to tell me, that after whatever sick plan they had, which involved getting X lynched, crumbled when a last minute switch to Z happened, then Y was still calm as fuck (even though their whole convoluted complex bussing plan they've been trying to perfect for hours and hours just crumbled at their feet) and even decided to jump on the bandwagon when he had stated in the thread he thought Z to not be that scummy and could be bad town. WoS, repeat what I've just said Do it, with a straight face. If you keep up with this absolutely. Replace the letters with names please because I'm actually having a hard time following your post. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:16 gonzaw wrote: @kita: Who is scum? You posted this like 20 hours ago. I suggest you stop fooling around and get to it. Enough with the thread bully routine gonzaw. It's getting old. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:15 gonzaw wrote: WoS, please, let me get this straight: You think, there are 3 scum: X, Y and Z. You think scum X bussed scum Y ALL D1, without wavering, without changing his vote or even attempting to change his mind, and doing so up until the final minutes of the lynch You think Z casted suspicon on Y, and 30 minutes before deadline decided to bus Y You also think, that immediately after that, Y decides to come to the thread and bus X back. All of this, while this is the votecount at the time: (X): 4 votes (Y): 4 votes (Z): 1 vote You are going to tell me, not a SINGLE townie had a vote on them by the end of D1 (not taking into account Holy's wasted vote). You are going to tell me, that scum made a plan, where they cross-bus each other, vote NO ONE other than each other, end up with ALL THREE OF THEM having votes, and (again BECAUSE THIS IS IMPORTANT) end up with NO TOWNIE HAVING A VOTE ON THEM AT ALL. Not only this, you are going to tell me that scum were completely happy with this (check Prome and Foo's behaviour at the deadline, they were pretty calm about it). You are also going to tell me, that after whatever sick plan they had, which involved getting X lynched, crumbled when a last minute switch to Z happened, then Y was still calm as fuck (even though their whole convoluted complex bussing plan they've been trying to perfect for hours and hours just crumbled at their feet) and even decided to jump on the bandwagon when he had stated in the thread he thought Z to not be that scummy and could be bad town. WoS, repeat what I've just said Do it, with a straight face. If you keep up with this absolutely. Oh I see and so if you magically convince me now, all of a sudden I'm off the hook? lol what a joke. I see EXACTLY the problem VE was having. You leave absolutely no room for anything other than your current views when talking to either of us. Considering this, and the fact that we still try and converse with you and you have no intention of changing your mind in the slightest (me more so than VE) I think it's a fucking miracle that anybody would continue. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:21 marvellosity wrote: Aww Wave <3 you never bitch when I'm thread bully. <3 Yeah...you're right. I guess I've been sensitized to your bully routine or something. Or I expect you to throw me back in line? | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:23 gonzaw wrote: Sorry, but I think I have to do something if not everybody's going to go crazy. That's the point. Abstract away from the specific people you are talking about (which you clearly have bias against), and it doesn't make sense. X is Foolishness Y is Promethelax Z is sandroba I get that, but I actually couldn't follow it without the names. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:24 gonzaw wrote: Well WOS, only you and VE seem to have that problem (I don't see Toad nor kita complaining). Both of you came up with this ridiculous idea of the Foo/sandro/Prome scumteam. Coincidence? Nope, it's the reason I've been considering him town. Go ahead and tell me your post is not bias right now. Tell me how likely it is that as scum I'd take the difficult way out here, hard defend my scumbuddy ALL GAME rather than acquiesce quietly. It's waaaayyyyy more likely that I am wrong about VE than we are both scum. KISS. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:30 Toadesstern wrote: Let's assume I'm in your shoes. Let's assume your shoes are townie shoes. I don't think I put it that way. I don't give a shit because it's the truth. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:31 marvellosity wrote: This is getting ridiculous. Are you really KISSING given your current theory? Can we move on to something that isn't this? This isn't helping me getting a read on you really. Then, pray tell, what will? I'm quickly losing steam for today. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:31 gonzaw wrote: Yes it is. But with good reason. That's misdirection. The current discussion has nothing to do with you defending VE or whatever, it's you pushing that ridiculous scumteam. Anyways, you still think those 3 are scum? Did my "reality check" make you try to rethink it or anything? I prefer AC/DC to be honest. I have to interlace the scumteam theory with my innocence because you people clearly still do not believe it. As for your post, I'm working on it. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:32 Toadesstern wrote: what's the truth. VE being mafia and you being wrong? Why didn't you say so from the beginning instead of doing those 2 wall of texts telling everyone how town he is for things that are in your opinion most likely not alignment indicative. No Toad, don't twist my words. I believe we are both town, but i am trying to show from an outside perspective how much more likely it is that if the first isn't true (which everyone assumes) then VE is the only scum of the two of us. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:33 marvellosity wrote: Wave: Toad stuff maybe. The problem with this whole conversation is this: a)townie paranoia and weird connection theory b)mafia inventing some theory and sticking to it ??? Or maybe - are you voting Foolishness? Or what's going to happen there? I'd probably vote Foolishness over Prome at this point because I find Foolishness scummier, and haven't done Toad yet. Should I be reading Holy as well? Because that will take a little longer. Actually I will. It may be a little bit, especially if I continue my thread presence. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:35 gonzaw wrote: Actually it's the anti-LI. Did VE tell you to do that? If so he's a boss lol Stop it gonzaw. How many times? | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:40 kitaman27 wrote: On a side note, I hate the fact that the name Foolishness can't be easily shortened. I suppose I could start calling him Fool, but then people wouldn't know if I'm referring to him or VE. I've never understood why people on this forum go for WoS over wave. TL mafia is the only place this occurs and i use this name everywhere. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:44 gonzaw wrote: WOS, what worries me is your lack of doubt. You are just assuming VE is town. The stuff you posted is not alignment indicative at all basically, but you attribute subjective value to it. Your wording shows that basically. Then you have lots of people with cases on VE, posting stuff about him, telling you "Hey, maybe VE is not town". I'd think you'd reconsider VE, take into account town sentiment, etc. But you straight up jump to "VE is so so town" (even if you aren't saying it, you are heavily implying it). I don't understand how you don't even leave the possibility of VE being scum open, again, considering how unconvincing most of your defense of VE was. Your defense on VE is based on nitpicking some posts of his, and showing in a contrived manner how, maybe, perhaps, in your opinion, from your own experience, can come from town VE. Every single one of your points is like that. I find it kind of hard to believe WOS, unless you are having some of weird anxiety attack or something? Dunno lol. I ALWAYS have doubt. Always. But apparently when I have doubts and show them in thread I'm being wishy washy. When I don't it's 'contrived, nitpicky and forced.' I am not certain of VE's alignment; I have talked about how I certainly don't like what he did around the lynch, but his behaviour for the rest of the game is what convinces me--- town is what I'm going with right now. Even were I to change my mind, reconsider, do all of the above, I would STILL find the other people I have mentioned scummier. | ||
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If you're going to lynch me, whatever, let's at least talk about other subjects so you'll have what to go on when you realize you haven't already won the game. Reading Toad/Holy atm. | ||
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On January 25 2014 01:31 gonzaw wrote: Yes it is. But with good reason. That's misdirection. The current discussion has nothing to do with you defending VE or whatever, it's you pushing that ridiculous scumteam. Anyways, you still think those 3 are scum? Did my "reality check" make you try to rethink it or anything? I prefer AC/DC to be honest. Coincidence?? I'm actually pretty pumped now tbh. And I remembered something I should have remembered a while ago. I feel pretty damn good about this right now, fuck the conspiracy theory for now, fuck VE, this is where we go today. ##Vote: Foolishness Explain soon, and reading Toad. | ||
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On January 25 2014 02:23 austinmcc wrote: I do but I also need to get brussels sprouts. So I run errands. Also, you're doing a lot of talking and a lot of "this is too much talking." If you want to chat about hypothetical Gonzaw-scum world, yippee. If you want to pick marv or kita, and read a little of them, or grill ME about them/one of them, mostly yippee. I've come up with some topics, promise, you just think they silly/too much work. Because you're picking topics that are less/not important in my opinion. I can get to those with you, but not until I'm finished doing what I believe needs to be done, and right now that's determine if Holy/Toad is scum. | ||
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On January 25 2014 02:26 marvellosity wrote: Be more interesting if he did you tbh. I think that would be pretty boring honestly. Activity is real good, analysis at important points in the game and is relevant, stuff like this: On January 23 2014 04:01 austinmcc wrote: WoS, you around? Gonzaw, I don't think we can be sure what nobody defending HolyFlare means, but I think in the bigger context of this game, we can't get too much from that. Nobody is defending Foolishness either (I might, yeah, think I will), nobody really popped up to defend WoS or Prome while they were getting more attention, and for the most part it's people dropping off "x is scummy" after they've posted more, not actively pushing "WoS or Prome super town." Just not a ton of defending this game in general, imo. Gonzaw, 2 question to start off since you're active right now.You keep poking at Foolishness's past games. Do these things, dinky votes, horrible entrances, pointless posts, fit with scum Foolish? Also, honest question, if someone did these things vs did NOTHING, no votes, no real posts to be scummy or townie, etc, which player would you find scummier? that draw attention to those not under scrutiny and effectively and without bias pick apart those reads that may not be the best. On top of that I find it fairly unlikely that a scum austin would hop aboard the sandroba wagon in the way that he did and as quickly as he did---I'm trying to keep conspiracy theory comparisons out of this one, but to jump on an town-led wagon as quickly as he did there was no way he could be sure sandroba wasn;t getting lynched---on top of that he very lightly says just before that he could vote sandroba wihtout any hesitation and not when it seems unlikely either. Pretty damn sure austin is town. | ||
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On January 25 2014 02:32 VisceraEyes wrote: Like, I would contribute, but I've been told that my suspects are off limits so I'm kinda at a loss as to what I even CAN do to prove my innocence. Maybe a story? VE am I going to be vindicated or very cross with you for making me look rl dumb? | ||
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On January 21 2014 22:05 Holyflare wrote: You used a post from a player that has had 0 contribution to the game as a platform for you to further your paradigm of VE. Not only is that strange but you do not question HOW he could have those reads (something you absolutely should because how else do you learn about another player's mindset?) The only thing you question is his read on wave. You should absolutely not be happy when someone calls you or someone else town for no reasoning and should be questioning it as you have been questioning mostly everything for the entirety of the game. As for the rest of the thread: I don't understand why this conversation was ended around here. We absolutely should be pushing everyone and not letting them ignore posts and accusations directed at them. It's a team game where we have to demonstrate our townieness to each other. Why should we let a player not participate in the game just because he gets better later when in fact we have the potential to learn more about his alignment today? This sentiment was echoed by hapa BUT THEN TOTALLY CONTRADICTED AS WELL. I don't understand the mindset behind this. You suggest we find his alignment by way of pressure but then give into the sentiment of other players of which you do not know the alignment of and say that we should not pressure him because he won't respond instead of taking the initiative of your confirmed alignment to yourself and pressuring sandroba yourself. This isn't something a townie mindset does at all. I'm interested to hear your reasoning before I put my vote down on you though because there's no reason being hasty. That being said the thing that stuck out to me the most was VE's posts and vote on Prome. I actually agree with much of what he has said and I do not get the motive behind happa's line of questioning. Hapa mentioned: Why do you assume that it is retroactive justification instead of new evidence coming to light after a troll vote? What he was saying made sense and prome's opening post seemed like it was pre-written before he even read any of the game. I'll get into this later when I have the time and get back but for now I'll leave you to talk about what i've said above. Whoa chainsaw alert. Did anyone pick up on that? Very subtly says 'well we should have continued the discussion about sandroba BUT LOOK AT WHAT SCUM HAPA DOES!' On January 21 2014 23:07 Holyflare wrote: Why Foolishness over sandroba? They have both posted nothing. Your goal is clearly to lynch a lurker today so why are you going to ignore the rest of what has happened on day 1 when your intentions are already set in stone? Same thing here. Asks about sandroba but doesn't talk about pushing him, just uses it as a way to attack gonzaw. On January 22 2014 06:13 Holyflare wrote: I do not want to participate in a discussion based on a person with 4 posts, it is futile. Foolishness has posted nothing and gonzaw is spending his entire time focusing on that person. I want to know what Gonzaw is like in other games, does he tunnel like that, does he declare he is not reading the thread till he gets home only to still spend his time on futile research? These are all questions I would like to know the answers to based on people's previous games with him. Just because he has put effort in and has posted does not make him towny. I asked that question specifically to kita because I think me and him are on the same wavelength (he asked gonzaw how long it took him to do the foolishness meta post - what I assumed to be seeing how he was allocating time) and I would like him to elaborate on his thoughts. I have no attitude towards foolishness other than my dislike for his unexplained reads. It's not scummy, it's not towny, I want to know his reasonings before I take my read further. Could he be scum? Yes. Could he be town? Yes. I do not know and cannot know until he posts, so of course my attitude to him would be a net null read. Again, much of Holy's posting looks like chainsaw-type stuff. Makes sense here if Foolishness is scum, but unflipped association, no, bad Wave. At the very least Holy went hardcore on the two towniest people in thread. On its own that's alignment non-indicative (Holy could be just wrong or scum) but it's still something to consider. I don't believe that ages-old defense that 'Why would a scum Holy attack the people who looked the best?' applies. On January 23 2014 03:08 Holyflare wrote: I don't get why people are picking up on me attacking hapa who "looked towny", he had contradictions in a thought process that I picked up on and questioned. Either way, I apologise for my lack of playing this game. I fully expected to be able to contribute time but my circumstances changed on the day the game started and so each and every single one of my posts has been posted from my phone, I was just picking up on points that I thought were contradictary and the such, no "aggression" is intended it's just how I post (Hogwarts I got called out for being aggressive as scum so there is no way I would ever try and look like that in a game again as scum). Either way, my initial read was on gonzaw being scummy because of his time allocation, that subsequently changed based on his responses and although I mention the repeated bastardisation and misconstruing of my posts that increasingly (as he kept doing it and still is) looks more and more like a tunneled towny and so I used my time to defend myself from him so as to divulge my thought processes and vindicate myself to the person that I think is towny (from the people that I have focused on). I thought hapa was looking scummy because of his contradictions but his response to me made me back off of that. I can't delve into quotes and things like I normally would but please please look at when gonzaw posted that "case" (that I said was heavily misconstrued) on me. The responses that meekly followed that said "yeh, that's true" and "hmmm yeh I can see that" should be heavily scrutinised as they were, like was just said, not backed up by votes. Like I said at the start, you shouldn't let people who get better later "sandroba AND foolishness (although he has posted now)" sit back, they should be entirely pressured. Sandroba even went so far as to get a good ++ (I think?) from foolishness??? despite his less than 1 page filter with nothing contributary in. Either way, I've asked to be subbed out so have fun. This post of his actually kinda looks good, especially considering I do believe he was somewhat correct in that critique of Hapa, though it clearly did not make Hapa scum. I refuse to apply any thought to his vote or talking about subbing out in thread. That opens up a huge can of worms that probably ends up with geript talking about it somehow. Next post will be Toad. | ||
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On January 25 2014 02:42 VisceraEyes wrote: And I'm not even going to be around to be all "NAH GUYS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WE'RE BROTHERS!" VE. VE don't do this to me. There is a reason I was hesitant to invoke the name. | ||
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On January 24 2014 06:26 Toadesstern wrote: like I said, I'm reading. Time spent posting is time spent not reading right now... But we can talk a little if you want, I spent the last hours and I'm getting a headache so I need something else to do for now or I'm going crazy. I read everything from the point I replaced in. From the people that seem to be worth looking into I really don't see foolishness being mafia. As far as I've come, I liked his posts and agreed with most of it, I liked his thought process when he pointed it out and when he didn't I found myself knowing what he's getting at because I had the same idea when reading something. VE is weird but I'd lean town on him so far. Town-VE is a man who likes to go on an adventure and posts like he doesn't give a crap. He posts weird, he posts stuff that makes people go "wat?" and all that kind of stuff. Mafia VE restrains himself more because he knows he has to and I'm not seeing that. Not sure about Kita yet, he's all over the place. WoS certainly the one I'd want lynched the most atm. Some stuff I didn't like about him. So pretty much start from the bottom and work my way up. Other than that I do have some beef with Hapa but he seems not to be an option right now due to votings so I'll trust you guys on that one until I'm done reading. Anything you want to talk about in specific? I'm not going to ramble or hypnotoad this game if you're looking forward (?) to that. Kind of got myself lynched as town (like actively, not passivly...) in the last game I played on d1 because I couldn't stand talking to rayn anymore and he kept tunneling everyone no matter what... so main goal right now is to make sure that doesn't happen again. Toad seems to actually put effort into keeping with Holy's reads. That strikes me as REALLY weird. Like...he defends Foolishness similarly to Holy, has 'beef' with Hapa similar to Holy....why would a townie who replaced in ever need to try and stay consistent with the person he replaced's reads? (Terrible grammar but whatevs). Already mentioned the useless suspicion on me that is never truly followed up on. On January 24 2014 08:22 Toadesstern wrote: well I'm missing out on some 10 or so pages inbetween but yeah I guess. I don't really see a conundrum on Foolishness to be honest. I'd rather lynch into one of you five guys than Foolish atm. I really do not think he'd behave the way he did before deadline if he knew Sandro was mafia so either he played withough knowing his alignment or he's just town. SO this post is just stupid. And was pointed out already---overcompensation maybe to make him defending a scumbuddy look REALLY unlikely but that kinda seems like I'm injecting my own bias in there. He goes on to clarify though and rethink it after marv calls him out again on it: On January 25 2014 01:14 Toadesstern wrote: I'd actually like to take that back. No idea what I was thinking yesterday... Had the whole voteswitch happening over a longer time period in my head and after rereading some of the posts Foolish did I just don't think they're that alignment indicative as it seemed on first look. Like when he mentioned that if he's mafia he has no plan to win because he's limiting the lynch candidates. Same thing can be said about Kita and myself and VE certainly doesn't look like he's having any kind of longterm plan whatsoever either. The exception here's WoS as he still holds firmly on this prom lynch he wants to get, only ever so slightly hinting at maybe being willing to lynch Foolishness a little more but not actually doing so. checking out his filter atm, you'll get something from me in a while. I actually kind of like the WAY in which he reconsiders this in terms of talking about that 'longterm scumplan' thing. The way Foolishness talked about that reminded me of scum Ace in a way I don't think I can describe. But once again, I'm the primary target here so it doesn't ultimately matter what he thinks of Foolish, right? As long as I get lynched today. For crappy reasons. On January 25 2014 01:32 Toadesstern wrote: what's the truth. VE being mafia and you being wrong? Why didn't you say so from the beginning instead of doing those 2 wall of texts telling everyone how town he is for things that are in your opinion most likely not alignment indicative. And THIS post was infuriating but I already addressed it. Obvious attempt to discredit me and twist my words. Like...at least gonzaw has some legitimate points to bring that I can think of, but all Toad has done is take the 'easy way out' to my lynch, bringing up thinks like 'was afk for lynch,' and 'stuff looks forced,' while not-so-subtly slinging shit. I could definitely see a Foolishness/Toad scumteam especially considering how hesitant and tentative Toad discusses him, but as for the other way around I seem to remember Foolishness actively calling Holy scum so I'm not really sure. I'd still lynch Foolishness above all right now but I'd probably put Holy/Toad above Prome in lynchworthiness. Simple due to this I may be forced to completely drop the conspiracy theory for now. Scum order for me would be Foolishness Toad Prome and by PoE kita Decently sure marv is town. Gonna do kita/marv later I think. | ||
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On January 25 2014 02:59 VisceraEyes wrote: Kita has a few big posts that have very little in the way of conclusions. Any that do have conclusions have the word "null" attached to them...."leaning townie null" or "scummy null" etc. Doesn't make him scum, but doesn't make him contributory either. He was NOT on sandroba, but WAS around. His largest post in the thread is his combinatrics post. Flashes onto minions to steal farm. Could maybe lynch. Ugh I laughed but please don't troll VE. Why am I town when the whole thread disagrees? What about Toad? | ||
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On December 24 2013 13:57 gonzaw wrote: Hello guys. Nice to finally start the game! :D I think marv is being very suspicious, here: Everybody knows Hapa was just trolling, like all trolling town do on early D1. You know, have some banter, some chats, random vote, etc, the usual stuff. It happens every game, we all know townies who do that to try and pass the time and have some fun early D1, or maybe to even get the ball rolling and get people to post and react. Marv should know this. Like...it's part of the TL Mafia "meta": derpy townies on D1. Yet marv instantly jumps on Hapahauli the first instance he can, just because of that? And he seems so sure about it? Really? I don't buy it This is just hilarious. Trust me, this is not "Classic scum Foolishness". If Foo' was scum, I'd know by now. Or at least, I wouldn't have such a strong townread on him. He's been posting very actively, being part of discussions, and in general trying to enforce some order in this D1. Scum Foo doesn't do that. Scum Foo lurks a little bit, posts some (kind of bad) suspicions on people and that's it. Even more, marv doesn't even attempt to defend himself against Foo's accusations (which I agree with, see previous quote), he just OMGUSes him and tries to deflect attention. Yeah...this is no town marv. I think the bonfire does not want green blood today marvy-marv. Would you like to get closer to it a little bit? Why? Oh, nothing, I think I saw a coin in there....yes....go closer....yes more more. ##Vote: marvellosity Oh, btw, yeah any Self-Aware Miller should obviously claim. Don't waste pages and pages discussing that shit, everybody knows that by now. Also, yeah blabla "lurkers are bad", "we should policy lynch lurkers and inactives" bla bla, we all heard it before so let's cut the crap and lynch marv. Austin austin! Look at the post I found for your game! I knew it could be done! + Show Spoiler + Just ignore the post that comes after this one. | ||
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Whatever I can accept that to some degree but it still pisses me off that I essentially have to lie to the thread on my D1 if I don't have a strong read to show people I'm town. That isn't right. And as for the point about me not being here for lynch? Marv, if you would be so kind, what happened the last time people tried to get me lynched for not being around? Have I ever ONCE lied about not being around when i could be? This in particular REALLY fucking gets my goat because it's like it's the best you can do and it's blatantly false, and I have no way to effectively prove it. Are you purposefully trying to antagonize me with your case? | ||
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Want to know why I said yet? Because if sandroba showed up and started to do something that looked scummy, then I'd have reason to vote him! Hurr durr But please by all means put a mafia spin on it without even considering the fact that it is equally likely to come from town. | ||
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On January 25 2014 03:31 gonzaw wrote: Here Wave, I'll make your Foo+Holy/Toad case for you: Holy is like 100% scum for him initially. However Foo doesn't talk or do anything regarding Holy for like 24 more hours, where he backs out ONLY based on the sub thing, and nothing else (i.e forgets the previous case) + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2014 05:31 Foolishness wrote: Sounds like you're making good arguments why he should be lynched. Look at it this way. Let's say I posted and said, "Kitaman is the best lynch right now!" what would you respond? You'd say, "wtf he's been pushing the town in the right direction and asking good questions." Now I say, "Promethelax is the best lynch right now!" (or Holyflare) what is your response? You say, "Eh, I feel like he's doing okay..." I don't see any arguments that show that Promethelax is pushing the town in the right direction or pushing a pro-town agenda. He's responded sure, but where's the conviction and the push to get something done? On January 23 2014 05:44 Foolishness wrote: Are you going to vote for HolyFlare then? On January 23 2014 05:57 Foolishness wrote: I already said that I'm prefectly okay with HolyFlare getting lynched. And by perfectly okay, I really mean okay. As in, if guys are that convinced that Promethelax needs another chance then please let me know now so I can move my vote. But now he wants him lynched as well? Second to Prome in a wishy washy manner of course. In the italics, he calls him "good lynch", yet in the bolded he backs out again in a wishy-washy manner? How can you say "I could also just be reading too much into this" if you just called him "good lynch" and are saying "He's a very good lynch I wouldn't mind him dead" and the like all the time? This is his last thoughts on the matter at the end of the day basically. Prome and Holy NEED to die. Yet his vote is on Prome, never even considers changing it to Holy (only saying "Yeah! If it comes down to it I will surely vote Holy of course!" when pressured and the like), and even backed out of Holy before so is he still wanting to lynch him or not? Anyways, before sandro died, he wanted Prome and Holy dead. What about after sandro died? Here is his 3rd page of his filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137&user=Foolishness¤tpage=2 Check from this post basically: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=44#872 Now CTRL+F Holy and Toad. Here are the results: Holy: Toad: That's it. Those are the ONLY mentions of his 2nd scumread. Sorry, LEAD scumread (after backing out of Prome), all of N1 and D2. How so? Well, remember this post? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=46#914 In this post Foolishness proves Promethelax is town. Therefore, Foo stops chasing Promethelax. Makes sense. That post, and posterior posts of his though, make little mention of the non-sandro voters though. So, check this again: Foo's 2 SUPER HEAVY scumreads are Prome and Holy. Sandro dies, he "exonerates" Prome... ...so what about Holy? Nothing. He even says stuff like Foo, shouldn't YOU be advocating Holy is mafia....since you know...HE SHOULD BE YOUR LEAD MAFIA CANDIDATE NOW? No mentions of Toad either, just in passing. Woudln't a Foolishness+sandro+Holy scumteam make sense? Think about it: Holy has IRL issues and can't be active. Holy was AFK for most of the day (just was posting early D1 nothing else). Most likely, in scumland, he was AFK as well. sandro was AFK too. So, the ONLY active scum is Foolishness. That does seem to make sense right? Foo is alone to fight town. Therefore, all the votes piling on him without "resistance" isn't really a problem, since only town is active in the thread (sandro and Holy are afk, thus can't do shit) and only town is voting in the thread. When sandro does come back though, he tries to save Foo somewhat by going against Prome who had 2 votes at the time. Holy voted me (and not Prome for instance). Here is his vote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=41#807 The votecount at that time was 5-Foolishness and 4-Prome. You could say scum Holy would vote Prome to save Foo right? But then again, that'd basically make him out himself. Holy didn't do anything, had no scum reads. Why the hell would he randomly vote Prome? It would make no sense and out him as scum. This he takes the safe route out and wastes his vote. Foo had the most votes at that time, and even if Holy voted Prome it'd be 5v5, with Foo still getting lynched (because he had 5 votes first). It could also make more sense of his actions "confirming" the townies and acting pro-town. He says so himself, the only suspects left would be Wave, VE, kita and Toad. But, he, and we as well, are focusing on VE, Wave and kita. Those could be 3 misslynches, before we get to Holy. Scum wins with 3 mislynches, so it's a viable strategy for scum Foo to act "pro-town", make sense, confirm those townies, etc. That way he makes us all believe he is town (so we don't lynch him), and he uses his influence to avoid getting Toad lynched. Hell, maybe after this he backs out of his "these guys are confirmed town" read and goes after marv or Prome again (when town starts to panic and get paranoid) ..........did I just convince myself of this? Fuck if I know Fuck this game, I'm going to watch cats on youtube. Yay I said this earlier On January 23 2014 09:54 WaveofShadow wrote: Ehhhhh....I see what you mean but then he also sets up his replacement to look like absolute shit in the opposite case. I imagine if he was scum a host would still tell him to vote, and I know I certainly wouldn't lie as either alignment. | ||
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On January 25 2014 03:45 Toadesstern wrote: you didn't even read it. IT had nothing to do with him being unmotivated but with him faking. He SOUNDED unmotivated in that one specific post, his entrance post when he should not have. He should have sounded delighted to be town, like he said. What he said and how he said it didn't add up. I'm not making a case on him being unmotivated, I'm making a case about how he's not making sense in the way he's talking and constantly has posts that read like a farce, like the two big posts about VE, like the opening posts. What he posts and how he reacts are completly off in those posts. Just ignore the rest of my filter though, k? So ridiculous. There is nothing in your case against me that brings up anything legitimate in any way. | ||
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On January 25 2014 03:50 Toadesstern wrote: how is not unmotivated. That's the most whatever-post I've ever read. If he actually is happy to have rolled town he would have posted something different, probably even something stupid just to express that, instead he just goes with his "usual" opening without anything at all. He's either lying about being happy to have rolled town, which I don't see a reason for either alignment to lie about. Or this post doesn't add up with what he's saying. First of all, don't talk about ongoing games. Second, if you would like to hear my entire thought process, yes I am relieved to roll town because of the stacked-ness of this game but part of me is slightly meh about it because I ALWAYS ROLL TOWN AND IM SICK OF IT LOOK AT MY PAST GAMES. Third, do you actually and truly think that as scum, I would come into the thread, and make a post like that which would give my scum-thoughts away like 'oh shit I'd better pretend to be happy in writing' but I'm too stupid to make up a post that actually gets that across? Like it's as fucking ridiculous as calling someone scum because they're pissed off post-lynch. Just retarded fucking arguments. And don't you DARE try to get out of this by using my second point and being like 'well now I understand his thought process so I guess that's out' You shouldn't even be using arguments like that in the first place, they're fucking terrible. HEY FOOLISHNESS IM SWEARING< MUST BE SCUM LOLOLOL | ||
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I'll be back this evening, usual time. | ||
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Oh as an afterthought, hey marv, I'm emotional, must be faking it, amirite? | ||
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On January 25 2014 07:20 Toadesstern wrote: see this: so he agrees in principal, but you seem to have a problem with the fact that I didn't go back and read his filter and like I said, I still had 10 or so pages left inbetween to read, I still had to reread the voting section, I still had to watch through WoS filter and that's what I've done so far. Like I said, reading Holy's filter isn't even on the list of things I want to do, I'm going through foolish's filter right now and probably will take another look at prior to deadline afterwards. I just don't get why you think it's that strange that if I left them out in the first place it's so weird that I haven't read his filter when obviously other filters are way more important And what a thorough read of my filter it was. You read it so well you didn't consider anything post lynch, you didn't realize I was afk WELL before the lynch, and you nitpick and single words right at the start of the game. This totally explains how you didn't have time to read the thread and your own predecessor. | ||
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On January 25 2014 07:45 Toadesstern wrote: That one, right? I think it makes him look bad to just drop it out of nowhere, without any kind of explanation and to do an almost 180. Just like I said when I answered it from the Sandroba point of view and if what you pointed out in your bigger post is true it's literally the same thing. Want me to repeat it? That's the reason I'm in his filter right now. He did mention BOTH Holy (aka me) and Sandro early, really early and he has been going on about it + Show Spoiler [example] + On January 23 2014 06:59 Foolishness wrote: Yes Yes As I said, my posts always accomplish something (besides the one I posted before this cause you guys frustrate me to no end). You want to run wild theories that's fine by me, but I'm pretty sure you find less mafia than I do. Yes, HolyFlare lynch is good. I find that post to be the prime example of this to be honest. So he thinks Sandro is mafia and very clearly states so, but doesn't vote him, he thinks marv is mafia, he thinks Holy is mafia and I guess he was on prome around that time already? That just doesn't make sense to me and yeah like you said he completly and utterly dropped both Holy and Sandro later on like nothing happened. Marv and Prom are understandable because they voted Sand but the Sand and Holy drops are weird. Oh and for the record, this is the kind of post I'd make if I were scum worried about what people think of my reads etc. Very safe, agreeable, non threatening, following sentiment. Though I guess if he was trying to blend he wouldn't say something like 'I didn't read Holy.' | ||
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On January 25 2014 07:50 marvellosity wrote: honestly wave, gonzaw's case boils down to simply that central point. an I want to put serious though into it when I'm not on my phone. I'm not being useful right now, just flinging shit at toad so ill bbl | ||
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I think it is even more apparent through the entirety of day 1 as a whole. Where is my mafia team to save me? Are they just afk (we all know mafia games on TL are never that easy)? The only one trying to deflect votes off of me was me. Sure, kitaman and austin both said I was town, but there was never a hard push. It seemed like their attitude was, "yeah Foolishness is town I'm sure, but I got nothing better to propose". Kitaman's push on Promethelax was mediocre at best (in terms of aggressiveness, not content). I was 100% on my own for all of day 1. I see absolutely zero reason why this section of your post is relevant, and I've said it multiple times before. I don't ever see mafia members actively trying to push lynches off their scumbuddies. However if you actually do think this way, maybe it explains why you as scum were trying to save sandroba? | ||
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On January 25 2014 10:06 Foolishness wrote: As I said above, if you and kitaman want to run down the conspiracy theory hole even after there's a boatload of evidence proving my innocence and very little evidence proving yours (and VE's, and Toad's, and Kitaman's) then that's cool when you lose the game for the town. I win games. Silly question then in regards to your last post: Which two of the four of us are scum? And 'it doesn't matter' doesn't cut it because there is no way in hell the rest of the players in this game will simply follow your instructions and lynch those 4 without considering all options. | ||
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On January 25 2014 10:15 Foolishness wrote: That's not a silly question. I believe it is you and Toad. Though I go back and forth on whether it's Toad or VE. Kitaman went after sandroba a lot on day 1. He called him out early, voted on him (twice) and pushed his case. I don't see him doing that to his own scumbuddy (moreso since sandroba was inactive so his case just kept looking better over time). And what makes me the most likely scum candidate over someone like VE or Toad? What have I done in this game to deserve the 'Most objectively scummy award?' And you know, as an aside something gonzaw mentioned really strikes home with me here. You keep pushing the lynch on four of us---if Toad is scum as I surmise, then you win simply because you mislynch the other three, and you hope to gain the sweet lovely towncred you crave. Even IF I somehow go down today (which isn't happening), immediately upon my flip the thread realizes something is up and your 'lynch 4 and win' plan never comes to fruition. | ||
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On January 25 2014 10:49 Foolishness wrote: Me explaining why you are mafia and should be lynched: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=53#1056 What I said about VE on day 1 still applies: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=23#447 But as I said I would be fine lynching either of you. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=63#1246 Now that I gave you indisputable evidence that Promethelax is town (regardless of what you think I am) who is your mafia team? As a side note, for the list of reasons I want to lynch you we can also add "diverting the town with strange conspiracy theories about what happened on the day 1 lynch". Best of luck with that. I'm not getting lynched today, and certainly not for the reasons you have posted,as I have already explained why they're shit. And hey look, kita just did too! Like really? Diverting the town? Sure let's ignore everything else I've done all day. My scumteam atm is you and Toad and has been since earlier today; if you read me you should know that. | ||
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On January 25 2014 10:54 Foolishness wrote: Wait, how is it bullying someone into looking elsewhere when it's the truth? That's like saying someone who says, "there's no way the government would plan the attack on 9/11", is bullying you into becoming a slave to society. But also, your analysis fails to comment upon the numerous vote information I brought to the thread during the night (all made before your post keep in mind), the clear evidence that Promethelax is town, the mindset the mafia had during day 1 and the first lynch, and an outline of a plan for the town to win the game based on the lynch, votes and interactions. I brought vote information to the thread too, you simply don't agree with it. Offering clear evidence that Prome is town doesn't catch us scum. Your outline to 'win the game' as has been said multiple times by multiple people doesn't necessarily win anything at all, and anyone with a basic idea of what's going on in this thread should know that, including you. We don't just 'assume you're town.' You want confidence instead of wishy-washy? Here it is. Vote Foolishness. He should have been lynched yesterday and i am confident now my vote was in the right place even though it wasn't originally directed there myself. | ||
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Since there's no one else around no problem. Be back soon | ||
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The gonzaq q? Because I dove through his filter and it honestly looks damn squeaky clean to me. I would almost be paranoid enough to think 'too squeaky' but with a filter length of his there's no way to fabricate and look that good. | ||
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On January 25 2014 12:11 kitaman27 wrote: I think it's between VE and Foolishness for me. Wave seems like he is putting enough effort into the game to warrant surviving at least one cycle longer than these two. I haven't seen a compelling argument against Toad yet. Holy was scummy null for me, but that was off a limited amount of posts. I'm mostly in wait and see mode on him. I'm on the fence with VE right now. A lot of the things he is doing I can see from a town or mafia VE. As of right now, Foolishness is the best lynch in my opinion. You haven't seen anything compelling against toad? What about gonzaw and my prodding of him? Do you agree with any of toad's case on me? Why or why not? (Goes for you too austin) | ||
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On January 25 2014 12:17 kitaman27 wrote: I don't have you in my top 2 at the moment? I know that, but the question stands, because you're clearly still entertaining the thought. | ||
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On January 25 2014 12:28 austinmcc wrote: The thing I like least about Toad is that there's no branching. You were mafia before he read your filter thoroughly (all this filter stuff MAY be "i read his filter, then he posted a bunch of large posts at the start of D2, then I have to read his new filter", not sure. If this bit is the case, all of this is less applicable to everything). He recognizes that VE hits some of the same triggers as you do - lack of activity at lynch time, specifically. But he doesn't look harder into VE. He's tunneled into you. I don't love that, but I don't think I dislike it in a "toad looks scummy" way, more in a "I wish that toad would also tunnel everyone else, because he's just going full bore after one guy pretty much and wasn't around for D1 so that's not a lot of toadthoughts" But here's the problem with his tunnel: it's fucking terrible. It's like...Sandroba's Prome case terrible. He calls me mafia for me use of the word 'yet.' He doesn't even read my filter properly before calling me scum for being afk for HOURS pre-lynch (which imo isn't a good reason in the first place ANYWAY), and he never even retracts it. Why does stuff like that make him towny? I don't understand. | ||
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On January 25 2014 12:26 austinmcc wrote: I still kinda like Toad. Liked HF. Don't care that Toad didn't read HF's filter. Wish there was more current contribution, because I think a lot of the early stuff has to be discounted given his lack of feel for the time right before lynch. As far as his case on you, I think it starts off in a ... townie way I guess? For whatever reason, I view him as accusing you SOLELY because of your absence at lynch time, the 20 minute stuff, to be a townie-ish thing? That's a weak ass reason to vote someone over anyone and anything else in the game. He explicitly states, with his vote on you and having said you're his favorite lynch, that he's still trying to get through your filter (vote early on, reading filter recently). I don't LOVE the idea of mafia straight up saying that they're going through the filter of a guy AFTER voting him. So, right now I was townie on HF, and I'm now looking kinda townie on Toad. I think the majority of his early posts on you are not convincing of anything because they're based on little and he explicitly hasn't read you. Overall, I find his case terribly unconvincing, but I think it comes from the right place. Your reasons for finding Toad towny in this post remind me of the reasons why I find VE towny. What say you to that? | ||
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On January 25 2014 12:33 kitaman27 wrote: I think it's a valid point that you weren't sharing any strong opinions or pushing a lynch on day one. Some of the things that I've said about how Foolishness treats the lynch could probably be applied to you as well, which is why I'm not eliminating you. I disagree with the way he paints your absence from the lynch as "convenient" as if you planned to throw down a vote decided not to post because it benefited you. I think it's more likely that you simply weren't around. I'm also concerned about the fact that he seems to only take day one events into account. It's unclear how caught up with the thread he actually is. Could you refer me to the posts that from yourself/gonzaw that you think best summarize the case against him? Gonzaw probably does a better job, but here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=72#1422 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=72#1428 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=72#1437 I'd follow the page or two around those posts too. A lot of low-brow shit flinging from toad in my direction (and I will admit I did some later as well). | ||
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On January 25 2014 12:33 kitaman27 wrote: I think it's a valid point that you weren't sharing any strong opinions or pushing a lynch on day one. Some of the things that I've said about how Foolishness treats the lynch could probably be applied to you as well, which is why I'm not eliminating you. I disagree with the way he paints your absence from the lynch as "convenient" as if you planned to throw down a vote decided not to post because it benefited you. I think it's more likely that you simply weren't around. I'm also concerned about the fact that he seems to only take day one events into account. It's unclear how caught up with the thread he actually is. Could you refer me to the posts that from yourself/gonzaw that you think best summarize the case against him? And I do agree with the thought that I was not pushing a strong lynch or had strong opinions D1, but that is often true of me in any given game. Hell look at the most recent LXIV as an example. I explained this before but my D1 is often slow it is very rare I have strong scumreads by the end of the day. (I think we discussed this too...) I'm not comfortable trying to appear confident and lying about it if I am not. | ||
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On January 25 2014 12:43 austinmcc wrote: I'm not seeing the connection, tbh. If you mean because you're townie on VE for conspiracy theories, I don't think that translates. Toad is less conspiracy theory and more...jumping straight into things, convinced, and PUSHING them. I think, honestly, otherwise, you don't actually have good reasons to think VE is town. I think it relies very very heavily on both talking about sandroba, except that you are both saying the same FACTS. Sandroba being a lazy scum is known. Apparently sandroba not caring about pressure is KNOWN. You're not both taking in information and spitting out these same weird thoughts or anything, you're mostly just both saying "the sun is hot." You have a minor point on VE's ragequitting, how it's honest, more likely town, but you ask whether he ragequits as scum. If you believe the answers to that question (marv said yes, dunno if anyone else chimed in), then...all that ragequit jazz is null now. alktjghaelkteahtea. Whatever. I don't see why you think the reasoning on the two are similar. And I don't think you have good points about VE. Sry. It's not simply because of conspiracy theories that I think VE is town, it's behavioural analysis, similar to what you did in that post on Toad. I don't find the idea of him saying that he's going through my filter to be something mafia couldn't say. Nor do I find his tunneling me based on my not being in the thread towny either, and I have no idea why you think that. Why is a shit case towny exactly? I don't think you have good points about Toad. Sry. | ||
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On January 25 2014 12:49 austinmcc wrote: It's a shit case on N1/D2, when he replaces in, in which he, at times, says things that put up big neon lights going  O NOT TRUST THIS CASE IN THE LEAST*.I have played with scumToad, and I feel like USUALLY he gets himself caught trying to do something tricky, or clever, or fun, but that was in themed games. I don't see the scumToad that I've read translating, even in a vanilla game, to O NOT TRUST MY CASE* ALSO HERE IS MY CASE.At least to me, the toad that just blunders into replacing and is part wrong on some timings, is making accusations based on very little, whatever, is PROBABLY town. It's the WAY he's making his case and the WAY he's tunneling you that I attribute to him being townie. Well then that's meta-based and I tend not to give that much credence. Especially since I've only played maybe 2-3 games with Toad, one of which was LX AGES ago. | ||
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On January 25 2014 12:56 austinmcc wrote: Sorry for spam, I need to consolidate. WoS, I'm actually interested in your right-now-up-to-the-minute stock ticker read of VE. I see stuff like this and I KNOW THAT THESE THINGS DON'T MAKE VE SCUM but You admit that VE has some stuff that, at the very least, looks objectively scummy from D1. You note that a giving up VE gets your vote, and that he can show his colors by showing up to steer things in the right direction. Do you believe he has taken control of the wheel? Given/not given up? He started to come back and do some stuff, which obviously means he hasn't in fact given up, but I wish he would do more than he did (which can probably be gleaned by my essentially pleading with him in-thread not to troll). That being said what I originally posted on VE, lynch targets were likely him and me, and I wanted to make it pretty clear I did not agree with that, though I did not have any other clear targets of my own at that specific point in time. Now I do, and I feel way more comfortable voting for Foolishness and/or then Toad over VE, even if he does nothing for the rest of the day. If other people were so quick to determine his scumminess, it certainly wouldn't be the worst thing to leave him alive another day to get rid of the more...manipulative and threatening scum rather than the one that is already caught? | ||
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On January 25 2014 13:11 gonzaw wrote: Mostly because....then our super awesome last minute switch to sandro...was kind of pointless? That's kind of depressing. I really want to think about that vote switch as super awesome Nah it still was. Last minute shenannies are fun and I'm sad I wasn't there for them. | ||
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My activity will also likely be sporadic tomorrow until my usual evening time. Are there any requests/suggestions for me? you all know my reads already I believe. | ||
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On January 25 2014 13:22 austinmcc wrote: If you don't want to go through his filter, ain't no thang. But could you give quick, dirtay, thoughts on marv? Yes. | ||
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On January 21 2014 19:34 marvellosity wrote: Oh, Foolishness just dropped that and left? I was expecting more. Seems like he's just jumping on a somewhat generic opening post and going "omg scum" (although he doesn't even deign to explain this). Nothing else was very interesting to me ##Vote: Foolishness The right read to get from this imo. Doesn't say a lot because I would think it's easy to come by but whatever. Oh let me preface this read post by saying I have still to this day never played with scum Marv and I have no idea what it looks like. I tend to suspect him early on in most games and then he tells me I'm dumb, bad or both, we talk for a while and then we get along great. That hasn't happened in this game. Not sure what to make of that if anything. On January 21 2014 22:33 marvellosity wrote: Hmm. Alright. That might be reasonable. Defending marv always pro-town btw I'm fine with Hapa atm, seems like his typical tryharding. Should be relatively obvious by the end of the day whether he's scum or not. Banking on no currently Also the right read, but also an easy one to come by (if I can do it, it's easy lol) On January 22 2014 05:31 marvellosity wrote: Just popping in between exercise and dinner, i'll go find kita's stuff a bit later. Mostly 1, maybe a touch of 3? It's just something I don't find very surprising. I've often remarked to Prome that I find his opening to games bad/weak/scummy because he makes senseless accusations/stupid fluff/whatever. Really (and this is to VE mostly I guess) I don't really care so much about him doing that at the start of the game, nor Hapa either, because it's what they do. The difference between here and LX is that on LX it was abundantly clear he was on the backfoot about his RNG plan, here his defence was on the frontfoot (partly *because* he didn't try to overjustify it again and again) and he simply moved on from it. I sincerely wish I found it as interesting as you and VE seem to :p I think I missed this insight originally on VE's LX comparison and now that I think about it he *may* be right? I mean, it doesn't necessarily answer the fact that Prome made the 'policy' post in the first place, but whatever. Marv appears to go from suspicious on kita to...not around the time Foolishness showed up and did stuff. That was a little strange On January 22 2014 08:42 marvellosity wrote: I did play in that game so I remember ^^. And yes it's the content. Enough for me to not want to lynch him atm. gonzaw: Holy or Wave. Dunno about Prome, I don't have the issues other ppl seem to. Apparently I'm seeing ghosts with kita, I'll come back to that (or not) later. The Holy emotional stuff is pretty good as mentioned Here he moves on to Holy from gonzaw maybe and me as well. This does seem typical to the marv I've seen who flip-flops reads very quickly and without bias, all the while considering things closely (but often in a hidden manner). On January 22 2014 23:08 marvellosity wrote: Sorry Wave, what's the actual alignment conclusion (if any) about that post in the end? Good question here because i didn't really have a good one at the time. On January 23 2014 02:49 marvellosity wrote: Wave is waffling earnestly at length as I'd expect him to. Although he's only got one scumgame, I'd very much expect him to be more direct than he has been if mafia. I've been suspicious of him in two reasonably recent games for being slow and waffly (##, LXIV) and now it just seems it's how he opens day 1 as town. So maybe not obvious after all. I just think his thought process is transparent. Like he's posted a lot of his thought process, where's his agenda? Mainly with Holy that he seems angrier than was justified. But most of all it's the constant niggling at Hapa, especially with his last post(s) when Hapa was by a large margin the towniest guy in the thread. It's just not natural at all. Tbh I don't make a massive amount of his absence, I believe he'd be here posting as either alignment, so not that alignment indicative. In this post marv nails me completely, and yet throughout D2 he has problems with my posting and still may think I'm scum....I suppose that may be due to the somewhat odd-considered nature of my Prome/VE reads posts rather than me being tentative but I wonder if he considered me scummy before that point because as far as I knwo my play didn't change throughout all of D1 so the read he had here should have held. On January 23 2014 02:55 marvellosity wrote: yuh huh. you've been giving me the jeebies all game. but you're too active to lynch today in the end. I commented on this one earlier on somewhere but this is one of those 'mind meld' moments Marv was talking about where I felt really good about him. Ok so here are the posts about me post0lynch and they actually show a little of where he got to where he is now on me: On January 23 2014 08:07 marvellosity wrote: lots of interesting things with this lynch, VE is one Fool/kita/Prome/WoS are others for various reasons. I'll probably chat at length about it tomorrow. On January 24 2014 00:43 marvellosity wrote: also Wave your posts post-lynch have been shocking. General wishy washy fingerpointing without actually fingerpointing. "there's gonna be a scum on the sandroba wagon" ... "cos feels bro". Can't actually tell what you're trying to achieve at all. Like...the 'wishywashy' thing kind of bothers me because he should know that's how I am, but I guess I hit his limit to wishywashiness or something? Maybe marv himself should answer that. I was just about to post how marv made a large 'suspicion' post on kita post lynch and then never came back to it, but here: On January 25 2014 02:29 marvellosity wrote: Basically being petulant :p kita is more interesting, if Wave has things to do first then that'll probably line up with when I get around to looking at kita again. Although I kinda want to wait until kita has done his latest round of posting. Pretty consistent, though I want to see where he is on kita now, especially since kita is one of the 'Foolishness Four.' Conclusion: Typical marv imo. Town. Asks the right questions, gets to the bottom of stuff, good suspicion, all around townie stuff. I still have that little voice that says 'BUT WHAT IF?!' but for some reason this game I've been able to suppress it where marv is concerned. | ||
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On January 25 2014 13:53 austinmcc wrote: HAHA I LIED DON'T LYNCH ME THOUGH I'M STILL AWAKE AND YOUR THOUGHTS HAVE PLEASED ME. YOU MAY STILL BE THE MILKSHAKE OF MY DESPAIR, BUT I AM LACTOSE TOLERANT lol you're lucky that I don't even consider that a bait because I was doing that shit anyway, otherwise I might be very cross with you right now. | ||
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On January 25 2014 13:59 gonzaw wrote: I still can't believe VE spends 5 hours making porkchops. At least 5 hours from where he heats up the oil until he's done (he could have spent more time before defrosting them, etc). Unless you are at a charity or wedding making porkchops for 100 people, I don't see that happening? It's insane. Heating up oil and cooking 2-3 porkchops takes 40 minutes at most to me, not 5 fricking hours. Maybe he's just fucking with us? Remember his excuse for not being around deadline is that he was with the porkchops too. Maybe he'll say he's still cooking those porkchops now? lol I read that and I wtfed too, but I personally hate judging people on RL shit. (I could be biased because I know I never lie about where/when I go or why I'm away and as you can see, I get retarded suspicion for it a lot.) Yes it's a viable way of getting out of suspicion by lying, but I find more often than not people do tell the truth. | ||
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On January 25 2014 14:06 gonzaw wrote: That's why I backed out of it, because I didn't want to start a shitstorm trying to figure out the average cooking time of porkchops and discussing the consistency of oil or whatever shit. But...there is suspension of disbelief, and there is "wtf is that true?" territory. Like, what if he had told us he was cooking the porkchops ever since he FoSed Prome? Would you believe him then? It's too wtf to ignore. The problem is that most of VE's "problems" with the lynch, thread, etc back on D1 hinge on this excuse of his. His unfounded vote on Holy then Foolishness, his behaviour from then until the deadline, etc. If it wasn't for that I wouldn't give a shit how much time he spends cooking food, but if his entire alignment hinges on that....well then you have to ask yourself "Is what this guy is telling true or possible?". I had a thought that I could start some sort of fake defense about how I know his RL can be difficult sometimes so that he'd really feel like shit if he were scum if I defended him based on that, but I'd probably feel like shit myself even faking that lol. Ultimately I guess we see how he behaves around this lynch. I'm personally still ok to give him another day but I completely understand how others don't want to. I think on the 'objectively scummy' scale though there are scummier people. It's almost like we're back to D1 and trying to decide to lynch a lurker vs trying to find active scum. Although that actually did turn out in our favour on this particular D1. | ||
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On January 25 2014 14:08 austinmcc wrote: I don't think I ever asked people questions just as bait, or ... I probably have, but not at all in the way you seem to mean? No. Even the worst of my stupid questions I ask 90+% of the time because I really want to see the answers. BESIDES. A MILKSHAKE CANNOT BE MAD Wat. | ||
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Maybe to replace 'dick move' analysis 'cause I'm kind of sick of it. | ||
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VE wtf was that vote on me? I don;t even understand your reasoning for it. Because I think you're town and no one else does? Is that it? As far as marv;s argument, the problem is not only would you be comparing mafia to town mindset, you also have to remember that VE and I are two different people. My motivation has been ridiculously on this game not only because I'm not and want to win, but because of the game itself. Marv you remember me asking you pre-game if I should even play in this game? Part of my motivation this game is to show myself (and others) that I deserve to be in here. In any other game I highly doubt I would be spending such a great deal of the free time I barely have to post in massive bursts. VE may not be similarly motivated as town (or obviously as scum). Now as for Foolishness, call me dumb but I'm starting to worry about how quickly it's being picked up. Especially by people like Toad. And even then if I'm right and Foolishness truly is mafia, is everybody going to be bamboozled by him again when he comes back with an hour to go and posts a flashy essay? | ||
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On January 26 2014 04:22 gonzaw wrote: Will someone please think of the I've actually been trying to avoid talking about mine too much because it seems like it treads dangerously close to cheating somehow. | ||
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On January 26 2014 04:26 VisceraEyes wrote: It was that and the fact that Hapa suspected you and died - but gonzaw pointed out that he posted his suspicion AFTER the scum had made their shot, so it comes back to the "he's the only one who's right about me" which is NOT a strong enough point to lynch imo. It'd be pretty ballsy (if I'm right about you) as scum to be the only one. Hapa's suspicion is a stronger point if anything and I'll grant you that, but surprisingly nobody brought it up. And his case on me was vastly different than anyone else's I believe---I think it actually wasn't terrible. So, is Toad's voteswitch authentic or is he trying to jump off a losing train early and trying to gain some towncred on a bus? | ||
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On January 26 2014 04:32 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm done trying to find scumteams. We can only do that when we can start looking at associations and sandroba didn't associate with like anyone meaningfully, so I'm waiting until ANOTHER scum flips to try and find the last one. I'm looking for one scum at a time at this point. I think it's either Foolish or you right now - not because I think you're on a team together, it's for strictly separate and mostly unrelated reasons. You're serious? You actually think it's me at this point? Like....the only thing I can think of right now is that you're going against the grain on purpose to look towny. And that doesn't look good. VE instead can you give me something novel on Foolishness? Do you have any particular reasons as to why he's scum? I want to be sure of this. | ||
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On January 26 2014 04:35 Toadesstern wrote: you're welcome. Also wtf is that kind of a question. I'm getting cold feet here as I'm seeing you and VE on the same guy I want lynched and you have the balls to call Foolishness 100% mafia and say it's either a bus from me or a townie being right? Sure I think Foolishness is the best lynch but I wouldn't have the balls to call it that 100% certain oO Also when I voted foolish it was 2-2-2 in votes. I might be called the reason you're "wagon" is losing steam, again you're welcome Yeah I was watching you subtly try to take credit for that. Horseshit, good sir. If there's any reason I'm not getting lynched today it's through my own damn merit. This is another one of those cases Toad where I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't. If I'm not 100% confident people call me wishy washy, and now that I am you find it fishy. Fuck 'wishy-washy,' I'm never using it as a strict tell ever again. | ||
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On January 26 2014 04:39 gonzaw wrote: VE, this is simple for me: If you are town, well then fuck I guess, what are you going to do? But if you are scum, and we let you live....what will this tell us about valid scum strategies for future games? If you are scum and we let you live, you just successfully NOT played the game, and survived. You, and other scum in future games, will see this as a viable strategy. Scum in next games will just go "I'm under pressure what do I do!!!? Oh wait I'll just give up, appeal to their emotions and they'll let me live, easy as pie". Do you want to see this happening in future games? Do you want to see scum intentionally NOT playing the game, just because it would seem to be a viable strategy for them to survive and push their scum agenda? That's not how I envision mafia games. So, I don't want to let you pass VE. It goes beyond this game. Like I said, this is what made me make my switch to sandro last game. I also don't want to enforce the fact that scum can go AFK for 30 hours, come with a shitty case and coast through the game. I don't want mafia games to be like that, therefore actions like that should not go unpunished. Same happens to you VE. Actually, yes, the point that I want to make is that town should punish this kind of behaviour more and more in games. I've seen lots of games where stuff like this happens and the scum coasts through the game and wins (Risen in TLIII anyone?). But town gets second thoughts, or gets too scared to actually do something, and scum win (IMO) unfairly. The problem is that you aren't even attempting to find scum either. You randomly voted your highest townread because of false shitty WIFOM, then parked your vote on the dude with the highest votes. Tell me how that's "finding scum, my #1 priority"? Not to delve into policy too much, but I believe this game to be an exception. People don't policy vote in most games, it's just that we have a lot of clear-thinking, rational people in this game who are ACTUALLY playing, which is an anomaly. Anyway re: the question about Toad voting for Foolishness, it's more because I find it a little unlikely that if they are both scum you'd attempt to bus this early when the decider is still pretty unclear at this point, but I'm trying to get some thread input. I could totally be wrong about Foolishness, and when people start to agree with me (or at least a lynch I'm supporting) it makes me nervous so I want to poke everywhere I can in every way that I can to be as sure as I can. | ||
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On January 26 2014 04:46 austinmcc wrote: VE, I read back over your filter. I read back over Hapa's. Hapa Stuff Hapa may have wanted to kill WoS today, but he was on your nuts D1. A ton of his D1 is back and forth with you and suspicions on you. HE DID CHANGE HIS MIND. Come N1, he didn't post on you as much, but he appears to be less certain on you, trollpost but also indicates that he doesn't think it's an awful idea to lynch you or find you scummy - + Show Spoiler + Your Filter I was townie on you D1. But if I'm LOOKING for strange stuff, your reads/votes stuff come off a little janky. You're suspicious of Prome. With reasons. With posts. Also somewhat suspicious of Foolishness, sometimes toying with suspicion on HF. You've got stuff like this: that indicates you might be worried about Sandroba as well, but you never fully vocalize that for a long time. You're start bugging prome about sandroba shortly before the lynch:You think prome is scummy, or are pushing that, yes yes yes. But you've barely said a word about sandroba yourself, AT ALL. You say he can prove his worth, but you never even add the other half of that at any point in the day", he has/hasn't proven his worth. Even BEFORE the voteswap at 10 minutes, there were posts on sandroba. Foolishness's comments on Sandroba got poked at. Sand caught a couple vote/unvotes iirc. And i KNOW you can be asking prome those questions from a townie standpoint, but it feels awkward for you to be bringing up sand without ever speaking YOUR mind on sand, despite, from your earlier post, you probably having a clear scumread on him for not proving himself. I dunno. I don't like those sand posts even though I know they can be read from both sides. I know this post doesn't go anywhere, but I think if you want to vote VE for inactivity/giving up, that's a policy matter. If you want to say he's mafia for his posts, you can do that too. But some people are overconnecting the activity/quitting to scumminess, imo, and they need to find some real justification in his filter for votes. Does that mean you won't be voting for VE, austin? | ||
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On January 26 2014 04:47 Toadesstern wrote: okay here's the thing. I said I'm ignoring you for today because I got that people disagree with what I said about you and I'm rethinking the whole thing. You just implied that I was trying to get off a losing wagon which was obviously horseshit because it wasn't a losing wagon until I unvoted. Gonzaw specifically said something along the lines of "well looks like Foolish or VE day today" after I voted Foolishness if I recall correctly. I'm not taking credit for anything, I'm rubbing it under your nose because that comment of yours annoyed me. So sorry for rubbing it under your nose but I can't stand it if you're flinging shit at me that's completly made up. See, I'm taking my time to rethink you, I'm actually doing that because I know how badly tunneling can end up and especially you should know so as well. So could you please take a bit of that same medicine and just stop the flinging shit for no reason-part? It's not no reason, you're attempting to take credit for something I don't believe deserves it. I wasn't getting lynched once I showed up last night and started talking, despite where the votes were/are. I do appreciate you untunneling however, though I'm not really sure you had a choice given your case was pretty torn up. I'm sorry my comment annoys you but it's the way I am attempting to think about the game right now, especially because I am worried about Foolishness's inevitable return pre-lynch, which i will likely not be here for. Toad let's just talk. If Foolishness comes back and posts a whole bunch, do you think he is still likely to be lynched? | ||
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Gonzaw on a scale from 1-10, how likely are shenannies today? And if so, is today's '3rd place' a likely target (like yesterday)? I get that it might not be possible 9or even a good idea) to answer this but I dunno, give me something mabes. | ||
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Why? He was pretty decent about not getting himself lynched yesterday, why wouldn't he be able to do it again? | ||
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On January 26 2014 05:00 gonzaw wrote: Toad, why are you refusing to talk about VE? He's the hotspot in the thread at the moment, yet you are the only one going on a tangent with WoS about Foo or whatever and not discussing him at all. Isn't that because I've been asking him? As far as VE goes I'd like to try to understand how I'm VE's #2 personally above someone like Toad tbh. | ||
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On January 26 2014 05:04 gonzaw wrote: Well..yeah, but still. You've been going in that back and forth with him, but you also discuss VE. Why can't he? Unless he still didn't have time to properly read filters or something I wouldn't accept not reading as an excuse by this point. Hell I didn't really accept it earlier. | ||
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On January 26 2014 05:05 Toadesstern wrote: I've said that I'd like to see if this continues and judge him the next day. I know ongoing game... but check out SMB mini mafia d2 lynch and my post directly before that. That gives you a good idea. Shouldn't be a problem to mention this as I've already flipped. That'll maybe take you 60 seconds You think VE is doing something similar to what you did in that game? | ||
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I miss Ace. | ||
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On January 26 2014 05:35 austinmcc wrote: Mostly afk while cooking delicious foods. Still considering. I don't think I'm straying from VE and Foolishness today. Don't want to vote Toad right now, so if I strayed it would be possible WoS (weird townread on VE, some posts with a small quantity of meat (same applies to Foolishness), and he also +1ed Foolishness's "sandroba active now so he's probably townie" statement). Kita is entirely off my radar in a bad way, I have not chatted with him today like I wanted to, and when I think of his filter this game, nothing particularly good or bad springs to mind. He's also still the probably candidate for a Foolishness partner, i THINK. Can you show me that? | ||
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On January 23 2014 04:41 WaveofShadow wrote: And for the record I probably am probably scummier on inactive Foolishness than inactive sandroba. Could be bias because I have precedent in PYP for sandroba in terms of an early game lurk then blasting onto the scene, but as was mentioend before (I forget by who atm?) sandroba was actively engaging the thread when he was around, whereas Foolishness basically hasn't talked to anyone, he just threw stuff and fucked off multiple times. In which all I say is I find Foolishness scummier than sandroba, not that he is town. And if they are both scum, well then I consider myself correct. | ||
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On January 26 2014 05:40 gonzaw wrote: We are at 4v4 (votes on Foo and VE) right now. Very interesting... I'm REALLY interested on what Foo has to say when he gets here. Will he keep FoSing WoS? Will he vote VE to save himself? Does anybody have any thoughts about this lynch polarity right now? And that's why I ask about shenanigans, because the dead-heat means conditions are prime. | ||
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On January 26 2014 05:48 gonzaw wrote: I mean, it's interesting because it's very likely the scum is in that group of 5 "unconfirmed". Thus, the scum (or at least 1 of them if Foo is scum) are basically ignoring the "super townies" and going straight against the wall against Foo. It's sort of interesting, but it doesn't really explain much, especially if Foolishness is scum because he's not voting for either himself or VE. Like all that says if I'm right is that one scum is bussing Foolishness right now. | ||
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On January 26 2014 05:53 gonzaw wrote: One way I think about it is this: By doing so, the scum in the "unconfirmed" blend in pretty well. If ALL the "unconfirmed" vote for Foo once the day ends...how do you distinguish between them? They all voted the same guy for the same reasons basically, you can't really differentiate them that much. This is independent on whether Foo is scum or not. If Foo is scum, then 3 out of those 4 is town, and 1 is scum. The scum is jumping on the bus on Foo. But why? This makes it very likely Foo gets lynched, yet by sheeping the "confirmed", he can easily get VE lynched...if VE is not scum. Would he be scared, because he "jumps out" of all the other unconfirmed by being the only "unconfirmed" on VE? Then if VE flips town he'd be put under scrutiny? But bussing Foo is basically losing the game right now, isn't it? Wouldn't he take the chance? Or maybe he thinks Foo is still not getting lynched today and is bussing him anyways? Of course, a very interesting scenario is both VE and Foo being scum. Wave, Toad, kita, VE. You guys are the ones doing this. What do you think of this phenomenon? Personally if you're going to use this to try and assume scum is in the 'unconfirmed,' then this almost confirms me as town. I was the first on Foolishness today (and technically even yesterday at your urging), and I have been hardcore defending VE since the start of the game, when it would have been super easy for me to retract that read at any time considering the pressure I was under and get an easy mislynch. VE and Foo could both be scum as well, yes. | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:06 VisceraEyes wrote: I would vote for Kita if the "confirmed" people wanted to not lynch VE. Toad too maybe. WoS too maybe. Looking at Foolish' posts makes me not want to vote for him though, and Toad's explanations make me like the whole thing less. I think Kita is my preference though. lol so in other words you'd vote anybody if it wasn't you. | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:08 gonzaw wrote: No. Explain what made you go from "He's obvious town and my only ally in this whole game!" to "I'd lynch him too" Yeah I haven't gotten an answer to this either. It's like VE wants me to vote for him. | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:10 VisceraEyes wrote: I just stated who I would lynch. That's not even close to "anyone but me". It's everyone in the 'assumed threadwide lynch list.' (Which by itself makes me go mehhhh) So you don't want to vote for Foolish and your vote is on him? Survival I assume? | ||
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And what of your recent post with suspicions on Toad? Like...you say you're looking for scum but I can't see any justification for votes on like, anyone. Just like at lynch yesterday. VE why are you trying to get me to vote for you? | ||
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Ughhhhhhh Now I'm tempted to move it myself. I'd be almost willing to believe you're doing scummy things to spite the thread or something but so much of this looks so awful. | ||
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VE I...I just don't even. GL with lynch guys. In case shennanies for some reason move to me and I die, most of my reads are updated but I'll say I feel a little better about Toad quite recently and a little worse about kita (or maybe that's bias 'cause i can't remember anything productive he's done in forever and I haven't read his filter in a while?) Lynch Foolishness and consider what he says VERY CAREFULLY if he comes back because his only out as scum may be a push onto VE. | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:20 VisceraEyes wrote: Talk all the shit you want, this is the second day in a row I show up and try and contribute and get "look so scummy lol he's trying that's so fucking scummy" VE I'm not following the rage. Can you show me some recent posting that outlines the reasoning behind your voting and reads? That's all I ask and you go ahead and fucking explode in the thread. It's not even an unrealistic thing to ask. I'm forced to believe that rage/martyring is genuine because that's just how I am, but I have zero fucking clue why. Outs fo reals. GL with lynch everyone. | ||
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There are a lot of things that I want to say and a lot things that I want to do, and I'm going to get to all of them. First things first: I don't care if people think I was scum picking a townread to lean on from the start for cred, that my reasons were garbage, that I was being stupid. I feel pretty goddamn vindicated right now and it feels pretty damn good. I'm thinking I may have to start bringing the way I play voice mafia into forum mafia a little more. More than anything I think my VE read could be described as gut feeling+, and while the reasons didn't always come across strongly, or I didn't do a good job of proving it evidently, I did my best not to waver and I was right. I feel good about myself for that and I'm going to be letting my confidence continue to shine through for the remainder of this game. The one thing I do regret is that I didn't push even harder for VE not to be lynched, and I couldn't be around to push Foolishness, because now as a collective we pay for that mistake, and for that I'm sorry. VE...I did what i could but you made it REALLY hard, man. Much <3 but in postgame I feel like you and I are going to have a chat. More than ever now though, I know I have to win this game in order to continue our streak. Now obviously this isn't the most important thing to be talking about, but that's why I'm getting it out there first. Say what you like about me or what I just posted, but every once in a while, it feels good to be right even the outcome was shitty. I'm going to be re-reading the thread from the time that I left up to this point and posting some thoughts and things. I'm not sure if people are around, but I may have to wait on responding to anything new in specific. I'm already going to be holding myself back from raging a little at some things I remember reading, and I'm also going to be trying not to be overly arrogant and snide because that doesn't help anything much, and trying to keep a calm and collected mindset probably won't jive if I have to discuss certain things with certain people. Posts to follow. | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:29 Toadesstern wrote: hey VE, if you're still there, do what WoS asked you to do. Start quoting what got you angry. I don't care what it is, start doing so. This and one of Toad's posts earlier struck me as buddying considering I was nigh unlynchable at that point, but I am going to leave that thought behind and move forward, because more than anything he was right. On January 26 2014 06:35 austinmcc wrote: Yes. It's not about saying one scummier than other. It's about saying "like someone else said, sandroba was actively engaging the thread when he was around." I was the guy he was talking to. I got a couple posts from him, all of them not quite about what I was asking, and then he dipped. Not so much a +1 as I LOVE THIS, but a +1 like..."someone brought this up and it carries weight with my read." At this point, I haven't looked into VE yet is NOT AN OPTION/EXCUSE/WHATEVER. If you want VE alive tomorrow, you gotta do something about it. If you don't care, you're fine not to read him. But not looking into one of two main lynch candidates because you want to read his posts tomorrow is smelly. Why do you care if he changes tomorrow if you haven't looked into his D1/N1/D2? How are you going to know if ANYTHING changes? What sort of change are you looking for if you have no basis/read to work from? So austin, does that mean I am your primary target now that VE is gone? I'm honestly shocked at how you have me so high up on your scum list after our talk last night. On January 26 2014 06:51 austinmcc wrote: A lot of his filter is his GIANT posts. The size doesn't necessarily equate to content though. His giant giant posts are VE is town, Prome is scum. But his reasons for VE being town are kinda murky, and he spends boatloads and boatloads of time on all these little things that make Prome scum, despite Prome being pretty much off the table (it would seem for WoS as well? I have not seen him pushing Prome lately). So while there's a lot, a bunch of it is stuff that nobody really believes, and it picks up after we lynch a mafia. You can say he's responding to pressure by posting a bunch, either side can do that (I know not all mafia do, but I know I've gone post-crazy as mafia, and we don't have a good example of WoS's scumplay so it's unknown). Maybe it's knowing that town lynched mafia D1 and WoS/buddy need to kick things into gear and take control. Add in Hapa and others finding his D1 scummy. Whatever his D2 is, his D1 still exists. Also just minor nitpicky stuff. Putting some credence in the argument that sandroba was around and active. You're 100% right that the giant posts don't necessarily equate to good content. The point wasn't for them to necessarily be solid airtight cases, they were to showcase thought process. I would have hoped I've gotten that across by now but apparently not because there are still a LOT of doubters. As for Prome I mentioned I wanted Foolishness and Toad lynched before Prome so there was no point in pushing him the rest of the day as he wasn't getting lynched. It's in my filter somewhere. Does all of that stuff you've talked about really overshadow my effort and contributions for the past day enough to put me as the number 1 scum suspect going into day 3? There isn't a whole lot more I'm going to be able to do than what I've done already, so if no amount of effort is going to prove anything to you, then I would posit that you're not properly considering the most simple case scenario, which is that I am town, I am not concerned with what people read in my filter (hence the massive amount of posting) and I am putting forth the utmost effort to win this game. you are considering only the mafia options and what's unfortunate is you're not even the worst offender in that regard. 'Whatever his D2 is, his D1 still exists.' My D2 was DAMN good, and you know that. Leave the bias at the door and help me lynch scum. | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:35 Foolishness wrote: Depends on what you mean by around. If your vote is on WoS I will 100% respond to any questions you ask. If your vote is on VE I'll probably respond as long as it's a good question. If your vote is on me then I probably won't care as I need to figure out whether it's mafia pushing on me or just paranoid townies so you guys have sufficient information for the next few days. What's up? I hate this. I HATE THIS. Shows up DIRECTLY after I leave the thread to begin his weak attempts to get me lynched. This post is absolutely disgusting from a town perspective---Foolishness if you are indeed town somehow you should be ashamed. Blatant bullying and holding the thread hostage at a time when people need information, and need it FROM YOU under the guise of attempting to help the town is not right. I have never seen anything like this in any game I have ever played, and is an extremely dirty attempt to get what you want. From a scum perspective, well, it makes sense I guess, doesn't it? On January 26 2014 06:42 Foolishness wrote: I may have actually seen stars after reading this i was so angry.Because VE actually seems like he's trying to figure things out and is listening to arguments brought forth. WoS seems very headset on lynching a few people (he's pushing what could be a mafia agenda) and seems to be ignoring critical information brought forth about the lynch yesterday. But I could very well be wrong on both accounts. How DARE you accuse me of not actually attempting to figure things out and being so hypocritical as to accuse ME of being headset on lynching 'a few people' WHEN YOU HAVE NOT MOVED OFF OF ME ALL GAME. The 'critical information' brought about the lynch? i'll say it again. I don't give a flying fuck about who's 'confirmed town' to other people. I'm going by my reads and my analysis, and right now from my perspective it seems like I'm doing a much better job of it than you. VE 90% scum huh? Ugh getting through these Foolishness posts is going to be harder for me than I thought. | ||
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On January 26 2014 07:02 Foolishness wrote: What doesn't make sense? I told you I will respond to questions. You just saying I don't make sense is not productive, not contributing information, not generating information, and not helping the town. Instead it is distracting the town, and pissing people off. I will be here for the next hour, if you want stuff from me, don't be sarcastic and don't be egotistical. Hypocritical again. if anything pissed people off (maybe only me lol) it is what YOU posted, and by shutting people down YOU are the one preventing the thread from receiving needed information. Now obviously eventually you responded and you were writing things up, but it's the attitude I don't like. I don't see how something like this is supposed to help town morale any. On January 26 2014 07:20 kitaman27 wrote: There was the interaction at the beginning of the game where VE and Hapa were going at it and Foolishness interjected saying "lol you're both town". You think that happens as scum to scum? Maybe I didn't understand this at the time I read it, but if it means 'would scum give another scum a townread,' then I say why the hell not?! Alright, a Foolishness post. Deep breaths. On January 26 2014 07:40 Foolishness wrote: 1) 2) I'm referring to his posts where he calls VE town (at least I think he calls him town cause I was never actually quite sure) and Promethelax mafia. Here is the post (he made about 5 at the time, I'm referring to all of them). Now keep in mind I'm still reading the thread so his opinions might have changed since then. But at the point there was good evidence to show VE is mafia (for example, lack of aggressive day 1 posting, not pushing a case, being strangely absent at the lynch time, and perhaps an unwarranted vote on me). Furthermore I made posts showing that people on the sandroba vote are very likely town, and everyone else should be under scrutiny. However WoS seemed to ignore this information I brought forth and his thinking is going in the opposite direction. I still haven't seen a reason why my post that proves Promethelax is town here has faulty logic. People, such as kitaman, seem to quote this post and say "why is Foolishness spending so much time proving that Promethelax is town instead of defending himself or doing a 10-page analysis?" That is because by confirming him as town I now have a better idea of who is mafia. Furthermore that argument is a Jub-Jub argument (you should all know what this means). Why was WoS so intent on saying Promethelax is town, especially after saying he was okay with him on day 1? This isn't the only post he made where he said that Promethelax is okay. Sure we all change our reads over the course of the game, but the progression of his change doesn't make sense. He thinks the case on Promethelax is bad on day 1 and votes me instead. There isn't anything wrong with that fact. However after sandroba gets lynch Promethelax looks really town (put simple, why would sandroba vote on Promethelax when the vote count for him and myself was tied?) Also I think Promethelax's night 1 posts had a town mindset (for instance this post here shows a town mindset of analyzing the votes after a lynch). No, WoS turn around on Promethelax is not congruent with a town mindset, and this is what I meant by he's ignoring key information about the lynch. That is a mafia agenda to push, he doesn't want to bring light to the things the day 1 votes say (such as the 5 people voting for sandroba should be confirmed town). Yes so as you've heard me say I think the town wins if the following four players die: VE, WoS, Kitaman, Toad (if you want to be really technical you can add me to that list but the day 1 events should show that's not likely. If you don't know what I'm referring to let me know and I'll explain some of my previous posts again). In terms of actual connections between I haven't done a thorough analysis to say "these two players could be a likely pair". One thing I did take notice of was that in day 1 Kitaman was pushing hard for sandroba (and voted for sandroba twice during the day). I think this says something because why would Kitaman be drawing so much attention to his obviously semi-inactive mafia teammate (especially on day 1, and especially on a player who is known for being inactive as mafia)? Because of this I don't find Kitaman likely to be mafia with sandroba. For the remaining three players I could potentially see any of them being together at this point. I haven't read Toad's filter closely, and everytime I read HolyFlare's I go back and forth on whether I think he's mafia or town. At the moment I think Toad is least likely mafia out of the three. I still think it could make sense for you (Toad) to be with either VE or WoS or sandroba but I don't have anything hard to give you in regards to that. Yeah sorry didn't answer question 1 yet, wanted to get this out there before it's too late. Remind me later I will give you what I was thinking. I'm curious as to how anything you said about me makes me mafia. I was calling VE town when other people said he wasn't. Clearly must ONLY be because I had prior knowledge of his alignment, right? # of times Foolishness refuses to acknowledge something I did came from town: 1 As for the Prome thing, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I absolutely do not give a flying fuck about who you think should be confirmed town. I wanted to analyze things for myself, and I did. I found Prome to look scummy as hell, and I don't believe when he voted proves a damn thing. People are not always going to play the game the way it is expected for them to play, and if anything VE being town proved that; the trick is to realize when that happens and adjust accordingly. This is a special game with many special players and I refuse to eliminate any options completely no matter how crazy they sound. For example, eventually even gonzaw is going to have to be looked at for scum too, isn't he? As such, your voting analysis doesn't hold water for me, and that doesn't make me scum. (There are holes in your voting analysis as well that I believe have been pointed out to you in the past as well, but I'm not looking for them right now, and I'm pretty sure you ignored them anyway, but as I don't have proof to show right now that could just be blatantly false.) On January 26 2014 07:50 Foolishness wrote: I didn't even realized that happened my bad lol I gave my thoughts at the time. I already said I could be very wrong on VE. I'm confident about my read on WoS. If you have the same read and gave good opinions then I got no reason to think you're mafia. As I said I've not closely read your filter because I've been focusing on WoS and the day 1 votes. I did say that I think you can prove your innocence to us by the end of night 2, and from what I've seen I don't really doubt that at this point. Phew, good thing you covered your bases VE here! Your posts are so littered with 'VE is probably scum but probably town but I'd be ok lynching him' I'm dizzy from trying to keep my head straight. Of course you always have to remember to hammer home that despite how unconfident you may be about the person-who-may-be-lynched-if-not-you, you are SUPER confident about the guy who has ZERO chance to be lynched today. Sneaky and useless at the same time. Awesome. More coming. | ||
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On January 26 2014 12:14 gonzaw wrote: Hmm, I guess I can blame this mislynch on marv, Prome, austin and Wave for not being around deadline. Yeah, that'll make me feel better about myself. Shame on you marv/Prome/austin/Wave for not being around! Pheww... I do accept partial blame for this mislynch, and I said so---what is the point of this post? | ||
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Oh, it read like sarcasm. Sorry. I think I'm almost done for now and as much as I like talking to you right now gonzaw, I feel like Prome and marv need to be here. What would you suggest we do when I'm done? | ||
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On January 26 2014 12:38 gonzaw wrote: Hmm, how about talking about kita? Does VE's mislynch tell you anything about a possible scum kita? What about his actions near the deadline? You can do this after you are done of course I will. But of course when I do I'm sure it will be seen as 'not wanting to figure the game out,' 'wishy-washy,' 'scummy,' or all of the above. Either that or completely ignored in favour of my cases that people didn't like. So goddamn frustrating to read this thread | ||
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^^Oh and obviously all of the above is faked too. | ||
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On January 26 2014 07:51 Foolishness wrote: I've explained that my read on VE is just like, a gut feeling and not much more. I can see his actions from a townie mindset. I would not lynch you until both WoS and VE are dead (unless I was able to get a really good case on you of course). On January 26 2014 07:52 gonzaw wrote: Hmmm.... Well.......maybe we should keep the lynch on VE. Toad, I don't get it: VE basically gave up a long time ago, and I doubt he'll "pick up" and start putting effort. Why would you think reading VE will get any easier? What if he keeps doing nothing and saying he's apathetic and doing the stuff he did this D2? Will you say "Let's keep him around till D4, SURELY it'll be easier to read him by then"? So here's a gutread for you. The juxtaposition of these two posts struck me because it makes me wonder if a scum Foolishness gave VE a weak townread on purpose, knowing he looked like ass himself in order to further fuel people onto the VE wagon. I mean...that's so WIFOM-y I can taste it coming out of my mouth but it's out there anyway. On January 26 2014 07:57 kitaman27 wrote: If VE is unwilling to return to save himself, then I don't think we should bother trying to save him. On January 26 2014 07:58 gonzaw wrote: He had all D2 to "pull himself together". Remember how nobody pressured him or anything on D2? He basically said he's not mad or anything, just apathetic. That's basically proof he won't "pull himself together". ughhh....they're right and that's what sucks. I'm only curious as to which people voting for VE took serious advantage here considering how easy it was. On January 26 2014 08:01 Foolishness wrote: In terms of what is good for the town yes. Even if I'm sure about WoS and not as confident about VE, a VE lynch is probably better for the town. Hence why I agreed with what Gonzaw said above even though my heart tells me that Toad is right in waiting another day to evaluate him. On January 26 2014 07:43 Foolishness wrote: Let me clarify again that I am perfectly happy with VE getting lynched. I just have a strong read on WoS and VE's frustration makes sense as a town frame of mind. When you say things like, "VE didn't push a lynch day 1, he wasn't accomplishing anything with his posts, he has since been not contributing" I have nothing to say except, "yep, I agree". I am not deflecting off his lynch, I just think WoS is slightly better and will tell us more. If you guys are convinced that VE needs to die now and that WoS is town I will gladly ablige; I've even admitted I could be wrong on both accounts. It's shit like this. How can you call me waffly and whatnot when you do shit like this? It's infuriating how much you strive to misrepresent everything I do, and apparently how many people are still eating this shit up. A VE lynch and a WoS lynch cannot be simultaneously 'better' for the town. You switched off of me because nobody wanted to lynch me, end of story. Call a fucking spade a spade. On January 26 2014 08:09 gonzaw wrote: Foo, right now these are your "scum suspects": Toad/kita/WOS. Choose the scum between them based on this lynch. Now This seems pretty silly to me considering he's been saying he's liked the stuff Toad was saying and 'lynch into these 4 people' and OH WoS IS SCUM I AM SUPER CONFIDENT. On January 26 2014 08:09 Foolishness wrote: Because I was focused on the day 1 vote switched. There was a lot of good information in that, including the timing of the votes on how sandroba voted for Promethelax. That was higher priority since I knew that it could possibly nearly-confirm 5 people as town. Would you rather try to confirm 5 people as town or 1 person as mafia? I went through the votes and all the timing to make sure that that analysis is sound because it sets the town in motion for an accurate plan to win the game. Also because it was pointed out that VE and WoS were likely mafia because of the votes on me. When this was brought up with compelling arguments I focused on WoS because he was one of my initial suspects day 1. Since HolyFlare got replaced I thought that Toad could have a day to convince us of his alignment, and that seemed okay because town was focused on VE and WoS. And that was good for the town and the right thing for the town to do. If the town spent the entire day debating about HolyFlare and newcomer Toad it would not have been as productive. And that's still true even after VE now flipped green. Hold the phone here. First of all, 'compelling arguments' as to why I was on you? Like, I was afk? And porkchop analysis? And not talking about Toad for most of the day isn't productive why, exactly? What is this bullshit hindsight post? On January 26 2014 08:15 Toadesstern wrote: can I answer this? Can I answer this? I got a pie-chart: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7sroMdW.png) I gave in to being a dick... Bias says I really like this post...but I don't. Who's to say that just because I was 'right' in not voting VE today that I'm not scum. Why is it not possible for townies to have voted VE and not voted sandroba? Here is also where gonzaw starts piping in and attacking Foolishness: On January 26 2014 08:39 gonzaw wrote: Foolishness, what do make it of you being the lead lynch candidate in 2 consecutive cycles (but somehow miraculously escaping the lynch both times)? Does that give you any info about it? Are both pushes lead by scum or misled townies? Do you care about being such a hot topic? Why are you so calm at times where you almost get lynched? If you get lynched, from your POV town lynches a townie. Wouldn't you make your best damned effort in trying to get town to lynch scum? If they lynch you, town loses in the long run by default (you are town). Last cycle, you got quite a bit of votes (4, you were leading at one point), and your runner up was VE. Yet you didn't really seem to care that much? Your lynch would be town (from your POV), and the VE lynch would be kind of random (specially since you said you didn't really know and you thought maybe the scum would be between WoS and Toad, etc). Are you apathetic to the fact that town should lynch scum? This is a massively important post. And everyone needs to consider this when lynch comes up tomorrow. Foolishness was essentially pushed by independent targets on both days and came up in different scenarios, but he came up both times. Surely there is a reason he is continually up for lynch, and it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to have been scum-led-on-town both days. On January 26 2014 08:50 gonzaw wrote: Anyways, apparently that "super bad case" from WoS about VE being town was right...... ...congratz Wave? @Foo: You think scum Wave was buddying up to VE there then? Your read of him changes nothing based on that fact? He defended VE ever since D1 (way WAY back), and he kept consistent with it. At points even he felt almost compelled to vote VE based on VE doing some shit, yet didn't. Also, please explain, in really attentive detail, what makes you go from having Holy as sure scum on D1, to having Toad as "very very likely town" right now. I mean, from your POV you have 3 people to be scum, and you leave Toad out of it. From what you've been posting I don't see anything to make me think you really think he's super duper town. So what is it? Care to point out some quotes, or something? @Toad: What do you think of Foo apparently buddying up to you now? I mean, he called you the most likely scum after VE, yet now he backed out of that apparently and thinks kita is scum with Wave. You "know" he's scum, so do you think he'd continuously buddy up to you to bus his teammate kita? He could have easily said "WoS/Toad" up there. That would be consistent with what he said last night, and from your POV it would be on 2 townies. That'd be good for a kita+Foo scumteam right? Gonzaw, the problem is, (and I think you've realized this) Foolishness justifies everything in the way he wants to. I can't think of one time he has considered anything i have done to be town-motivated for any reason in his posting today, and that is not how you are supposed to play. This is actually something I need to remember myself in my long-ass tunnel of Foolishness and at some point today when I'm less rage-y I'm going to step back and consider what it means if Foolishness is town (I'm not so sure I like that idea, honestly considering what it might mean for our chances this game). On January 26 2014 08:56 Foolishness wrote: How did I not make myself clear? I explained my thoughts about the votes here, and here, and here. In that last post I explained why I was onto WoS again. In subsequent posts I explained why I was going in that direction and I clearly wasn't hiding any information. I didn't make mention of my read on HolyFlare? That's right I didn't, because why is it necessary when I'm bringing other information to the town? Crucial and new information about the votes and the timing of the votes. You said to choose based on the lynch and I gave you the answers just based on the lynch. From what I've seen of the past 24 hours Toad's actions seem more congruent than Kitaman's. I will go make sure their posts are in line with this train of thought (keep in mind there are pages I didn't read and some I quickly skimmed through). I also liked what Toad said about VE, but that could just be because I was feeling the same way. And yes, so far I think Toad has the best intentions with his vote. Question for you now: this isn't the first time I've explained something and you said you were "not convinced". Furthermore, when I bring up facts and thoughts about the game thus far you seem to ask questions about other related things instead of bringing up my points directly and either refuting them or disagreeing with them. This tells me that you are actually in agreement with a lot of things that I'm saying and are just trying to look for things about me that may or may not be there. Are you so concerned about the slim chance of me being mafia that you are willing to sacrifice the good of the town just to make sure? This is an interesting post of Foolishness's.You say Toad's actions seem more congruent, so once again here I believe you are giving your reads where they're convenient and not considering all of the options. For example, Toad made a very obvious voteswitch off of me when it became clear I wasn't going to be lynched---you never even consider that and simply assume that he's town with the best of intentions. What are those best intentions that Toad actually has, and how are they different from mine? I'm REALLY curious about this. On January 26 2014 10:01 Foolishness wrote: Ugh I have no desire to go through this one---besides gomzaw sums it up nicely later on:It's certainly possible scum Wave is buddying up to VE. Why? Because he knows that the remaining 2 mafia (himself and whoever) is in the group of four that I proposed. What is his options as mafia after I come in and demonstrate it's very unlikely town is on the sandroba vote? First off, he (or his buddy or both) have to run interference on me to make sure I don't organize the town and figure them out. That means pressuring me, pissing me off so I can't analyze accurately, and making sure my time is wasted responding to thread questions about my actions instead of reading filters and looking at the game. And speaking of that, if you ask where my ten page analysis post that you think indicates I'm town is (cause somehow in your mind this is the only way you are able to read me...) it's just as much your fault as it is mine? Why? Because you are demanding answers of me because of paranoia and some of my actions might not make sense to you. I am choosing to spend what time I have responding to you because I believe it is more important to convince the town that I am town instead of just ignoring you guys. I say this because I firmly believe that the 5 people who voted for sandroba are town (and I also think time will confirm this suspicion as well). And I believe that once I am in the clear the path to victory is simple. Furthermore, you are asking me a lot of questions and at some point you need to make up your mind. Because this cannot and will not continue. We will be running in circles with these questions instead of doing something productive, sooner or later we will be distracting the town. Eventually we're both going to get frustrated at each other (or someone else will get frustrated) and we will start yelling. And this is exactly what the mafia want. They want me getting pissed off at you so I get mislynched, and they want you paranoid at everyone because that's what they need in order to win at this point. You and I and everyone else all know this. I'm not going to let the mafia control my thoughts and you should do the same. ----- That was a long tangent. But second, they need 3 mislynches in order to win the game, which means they need to establish themselves as town and find someway to gain town credibility while ensuring that the towns in the group of 4 (or 5 if you include me) get lynched. Of course the mafia can call someone else in the group town, and of course they will call others in the group mafia. They need to push whoever is the easiest lynches and make the town paranoid of me so I get mislynched as well. On the off chance there is a mafia voting for sandroba they need to keep up activity over the remaining days otherwise we will get suspicious of them. There's no reason why a mafia WoS wouldn't call VE town, and there's also no reason why a mafia WoS wouldn't call VE mafia. They can play it either way and at this point they could probably even bus each other. So no, I don't read into the fact that WoS has been defending VE. Does it make WoS slightly more town? Sure. But the fact that he defended him means nothing, it's how he defended him. I read his initial case on why VE is town and I felt it was misleading and had an agenda behind it. These posts by HolyFlare are what irked me + Show Spoiler + On January 21 2014 23:20 Holyflare wrote: Well I'm sorry if it comes across as antagonism. I just find it odd that your contribution in your work time would be to mention someone that has little to no posts that are suspicious as hell rather than read the rest of the thread and portray your fresh ideas when you are home. I will take a step back and let you do your thing though. I have yet to play with everyone here so will learn your meta eventually. + Show Spoiler + On January 22 2014 06:13 Holyflare wrote: I do not want to participate in a discussion based on a person with 4 posts, it is futile. Foolishness has posted nothing and gonzaw is spending his entire time focusing on that person. I want to know what Gonzaw is like in other games, does he tunnel like that, does he declare he is not reading the thread till he gets home only to still spend his time on futile research? These are all questions I would like to know the answers to based on people's previous games with him. Just because he has put effort in and has posted does not make him towny. I asked that question specifically to kita because I think me and him are on the same wavelength (he asked gonzaw how long it took him to do the foolishness meta post - what I assumed to be seeing how he was allocating time) and I would like him to elaborate on his thoughts. I have no attitude towards foolishness other than my dislike for his unexplained reads. It's not scummy, it's not towny, I want to know his reasonings before I take my read further. Could he be scum? Yes. Could he be town? Yes. I do not know and cannot know until he posts, so of course my attitude to him would be a net null read. Because I felt like he was dodging questions and not contributing to the conversation. For some questions his response was just, "got nothing cause I don't know this guy" and I did not feel like he cared about this game. Reading through Toad's filter it actually seems like he's making a genuine effort to figure out the game. I really like some of his posts here: + Show Spoiler + On January 25 2014 04:24 Toadesstern wrote: No idea, I haven't read a single post from Holyflare so no idea if his accusations on my predecessor as you coined it so nicely make sense, btw also something WoS mentioned about me how I kept the reads from Holy... I didn't even know that lol I did ignore it in general as I was seeing the same thing from foolishness about Sandro and it was so extreme that I just thought it has to be an exaggeration until austin pointed out that is indeed weird. He has been on Sandro for a while, called him mafia and suddendly started calling the lynch bad and wasn't willing to vote him. Haven't put too much thought into it. I had to catch up, I had to reread a bunch and as stupid as this situation may be I just can't catch up, reread and at the same time put the same amount of time into reading yet other filters as you guys are doing right now. I have to make this work somehow and I start out with what's #1 on my priority list. Just saying because you still don't seem to understand the situation I'm in. Yes a bunch of stuff I'm going to say will be less in detail than stuff you do and I don't have the time to do proper research like you guys. That's to be expected and there's nothing I can do about that. Yes I'm slightly angry about the fact that you've basicly called me out about not reading carefully enough... Yeah I'm explaining it from the Sandro <-> Foolish perspective but it seems to be the same thing you're getting at? Because like I said I haven't read Holy's posts. + Show Spoiler + On January 25 2014 04:36 Toadesstern wrote: the thing is, if foolishness is mafia that explains why he didn't vote Sandro despite being a very shady explanation. If Sandro and Foolish are mafia together Foolish has nothing to lose, it's either him or Sandro to get lynched, might as well just do nothing and hope that in the confusion of voteswitches Prome (assuming he's town) gets into a more favoreable position to be lynched. If Prom however is mafia as well, so saying it's Sand - Foolish - Prom, that unwillingness from Foolish to vote Sand makes no sense whatsoever. He has nothing to get out of not voting Sand except for a 1-1 trade with Sand which doesn't change a thing for him. Voting Sand however gives him the chance to get some towncred out of it and he WAS around, he could have certaintly voted Sand. It just doesn't make sense if Prom and Foolish are both mafia. Why? Because it shows a townie mindset as he is trying to make connections between possible suspects and figure out what's going on. He's eliminating possibilities to determine who is likely town based on sandroba connections. I'm not really sure why he went against that and started calling me mafia. Well, I see his reasons for doing so but to go against his earlier reasoning does seem a bit out of place considering it was at a time when the thread was giving me a bunch of heat. Toad, do you not believe in any of those posts you wrote before? Also, did I say that HolyFlare was my top scumread? During day 1 WoS was my top town read until he and others convinced me that I was wrong, and then Promethelax was my top read (hence the case on him and voting him). After the flip and I analyzed the votes WoS was my top read (and still is). On January 26 2014 10:33 gonzaw wrote: Foo, if I'm being honest, I get the feeling it's you trying to muddle up the waters and stuff. I don't see you being direct about anything. At one point you call WoS scum, then you call Toad+WoS possible scum team, then you call VE+WoS possible scumteam. Then you back off and just call WoS scum, then now you, out of nowhere, call WoS+kita scum. You think Holy is sure scum at first, then you still want him dead by the time sandro dies, then you don't mention him at all, then now you mention you thought at some point he might be town but never bothered to tell us that. You make walls of text with apparent justifications, and going on about the "sandro vote means I'm town", which is immediately followed by "actually it's possible I am scum and Prome town", which you then kind of confuse us by still calling you apparent town from the sandro vote. Dunno, I don't remember anything "clear" from you Foo, you keep confusing me over and over. Kind of like this: And when exactly was I your 'top' townread on D1, btw? What I think we may need the most on N2/D3 is an actual conversation between me and Foolishness. No essay posts from either of us, I demand a confrontation. Worst man wins the noose. 10 paces at dawn. What say you? You are allowed to say no, I won't be all 'he's avoiding me that's so scummy,' but I refuse to accept the answer that it's because I am trying to fuck with the thread. D3 will be about you whether you like it or not, so best embrace it. | ||
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On January 26 2014 12:50 gonzaw wrote: How about this: If you manage to have a filter bigger than mine, then I'll consider you confirmed town and beat everybody that suspects you to death. Deal? Posting pictures of baby seals over and over not allowed. Top be completely honest I hate having to resort to spamming...I promised myself I wouldn't do it after my massive filter in Thug Life but here we are. It seems a lot of the time it's the only way to prevent myself from getting mislynched---oh well at least it's effective. Oh before I forget, I do want to mention a little gutread-y feely thing on Foolishness. Not to be taken as sole evidence because obviously it's not, but I should have mentioned this way earlier. Much like my read on VE, I notice odd patterns in play across games and I develop tells, as I'm sure many people do. One such tell is one that has worked for me quite a few times, and his been right more often than not. This tell: When some forum vet I don't have a great deal of experience playing with tries to shoehorn me based on my 'meta,' they are scum. It was true of BH in Carnival Cruise, of Palmar in Thug life, and Foolishness's case as well. I believe there are more examples throughout my games as well but I can't think of good examples atm. My meta should be damn near impossible to read for people who don't know me, because I have only one scumgame to my name. Bad meta cases like Foolishness's (I swear a lot, lol) coming from someone of his experience should be an immediate red flag because they would KNOW BETTER than to say stuff like that, and I should have remembered to post about it earlier than this. It's not an amazing reason, and is only a tell that may or may not work 100% of the time, but I think the time has come for me to embrace stuff like this as part of my play rather than shy away from it, not only because I haven't been truly successful changing my playstyle thus far, but because it actually helps my normally terrible D1 reads become more accurate much of the time. | ||
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On January 26 2014 13:12 Foolishness wrote: I'm leaving this thread for the next 24 hours or so. I can't think straight because all my posts are being misconstrued and misused. I also can't make my trademark analysis because you guys keep distracting me and are all focused on the wrong things. I don't know how trustworthy my reads are because I have to dedicate 90% of my time to defending myself, instead of typical games where people ignore me and I spend 90% of the time constructing a flawless analysis. I don't have the confidence to push my reads right now because I feel they would just be spammed away, misconstrued or flat out ignored. How about this? If you talk with me now, I will leave you alone for 24h so you can do what you want. | ||
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On January 26 2014 13:09 gonzaw wrote: Anyways, is it bad that I'm kind of scared of Prome being scum now? At least right now I see WoS more townie than him to be honest. Hmmm, I'll have to reread him. It'd be funny if the scum team DOES end up being Foo+Prome and we bitched at VE and WoS for no reason lol. It worries me that my reasoning for including you austin as almost-confirmed-town are wrong because sandroba could have said in scum QT 'HAY GUISE LETS PLAY FOR THE LONG GAME.' I have to force myself to drop that line of thinking but it's always there. For now I'm confident of Foolishness but if he flips town I'm pretty damn sure we're fucked because it may mean that some sort of scenario like that is occurring. (Or Foolishness was right, and kita/Toad scumteam is also possible.) | ||
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If I am wrong about Foolishness (and of course it's possible), AND he is right about the 'confirmed list,' then it means that form my perspective we have already won this game, because the only remaining possible scummers are kita and toad. This is a pretty farfetched thing for me to try to accept, and because I will apparently never be able to convince Foolishness of my towniness, he will never consider the though of a kita/toad scumteam and will not perform that 'flawless analysis' we need to convince everyone else and win. | ||
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On January 26 2014 13:31 gonzaw wrote: Hmm, right now I'm convincing myself that Foo will indeed flip scum. There are other little tells that I pick up that tell me "Hmm, I can really convince myself he's scum based on this". Mainly his Holy/Toad stuff. His Holy/Toad reads are stuff that are "obviously" out of place. You've noticed it in that "case" of him I've made for sure. It's obviously out of place in a way that can convince me of that above (him being scum). And on the other hand.... Wave, imagine Foo is scum. In this case, I'm sure you do pick up a certain association, between him and Toad right? If Foo flips scum, what would this association tell you of Toad? By association, I mean it from Foo's end mostly. I.e how Foo acts regarding Holy and Toad. I have a certain theory about it, but want to know what you think first. I mean...he acts really weird about them both---the basically unjustified townread on Toad now and the stuff in your case regarding Holy, but I'm not sure what that says about Toad's alignment tbh. I've typed out three different things now and deleted them all because they don't make any sense. | ||
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On January 26 2014 14:03 gonzaw wrote: I'll repeat what I said on N1: We should follow the bold. We misslynched right now. We only have 1 more mislynch to spare. We shouldn't really have dangerous assumptions that could hinder our winning chances. Nobody is untouchable right now, at least not just because (they can be untouchable by their own merits, like leading a scum lynch, being sexy pro-town muthafucka's, etc). Let's tread lightly with the "confirmed list" stuff I've been saying that from the beginning, though. I hate 'confirmed' town as an idea before flips; I have seen way too many people get burned way too many times. Obviously we know who continues to push the idea. The bolded is the most important section---if you can consider someone town, continue to do so but don't do it only because of D1 vote analysis. | ||
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I'm around in limited capacity. What you're seeing in foolishness's push is most likely some version of what I dscribed as my tell earlier. Town Foolishness couldn't be so terrible as not to see anything I do as towny, I don't get how he could wilfully ignore anything positive I have done. I dunno though at this point talking about him is getting redundant unless you have anyrhing new/interesting to add. | ||
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On January 26 2014 22:41 marvellosity wrote: I may or may not later, lol, as 'limited capacity' describes me quite aptly right now also. The timing of him leaving the thread as you reappeared is just so off. Dunno if I noticed especially because I was reading a large chunk of the thread at once, but it was like a) fool talking about how wave is almost certainly mafia b) wave comes in and starts posting about stuff c) fool immediately decides to leave the thread It's something I'll probably check out later but it feels like, in general, there's been a lack of engagement with you on his behalf. Which I have noticed, specifically called him on and tried to see if we could do something about. As for filter length, as people have said quantity != quality but I'd like to think there's at least a little bit in there. It pisses me off that anyone can say I'm not trying. As either alignment. | ||
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On January 26 2014 22:46 marvellosity wrote: Pretty unlikely, I'd say. Partly because of the players in the game (sensible), partly because most of the time mafia ##bigplays are usually borne out of the situation at hand, not pre-planned/done randomly Alright 'cause my mind keeps wandering...and I worry that if Fool is town we may lose flat out because it means everyone has had the wrong train of thought all game. Who are your top 2 atm? | ||
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On January 26 2014 22:52 marvellosity wrote: Put it this way: if you're mafia, I'm extremely impressed with your effort and commitment this cycle. Lol and if I'm town? | ||
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On January 26 2014 23:01 marvellosity wrote: Try me. I can only tell you you're stupid, after all. Oh trust, I know and its never stopped me. I've already said the little I've considered on it (I think last night to gonzaw). I'm sure I could delve deeper but its not productive atm because there's way too much there without any real answers. | ||
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If so for how long have you believed it and have you been questioning it at all? Why/why not? | ||
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Alright so if there was one (or for bonus derp points, two) scum on sandroba, which would be the most likely and why? | ||
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On January 27 2014 00:36 Toadesstern wrote: Gonzaw, VE and I were town in LI, agree? So far all I'm seeing from you about WoS is about his activity, I go back to his posts, especially those about VE and they just don't make sense. You even pointed it out yourself. How is it that the activity of WoS alone is enough to make him town in your eyes? I just don't get it and you seem to be the only one thinking that way, so what gives? Anyways I'm off to my place by train and will check out Kita's filter when I'm home. It's probably going to be a decision between Kita and Foolish tomorrow, so I'll focus on those 2. There's a great deal of 'wat' in this post. Lessee who else picks up on it. | ||
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Seems some people are afraid of the big bad scummers. Not meeeee though! | ||
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I'm not even mentioned in NK candidates? | ||
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On January 27 2014 07:17 marvellosity wrote: If you die, I'll have to lead town though. And I'm so enjoying just being a contributor for a change. If Prome is mafia in the end, then this game isn't worthy of it's billing :< Its a shadow game. Its all about me. Be back lata, and I will look into kita as I promised. | ||
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I agree with the 'odn't judge me solely by the length of my filter,' but I really feel at this point my contributions should speak for themselves. My worse D1 can more be attributed to my D1 not usually being particularly good, and having one of those days be on a day where I couldn't contibute much at all. I grow more confident in my reads and posting as a game goes on, and I don't plan on falling off much (maybe solely to reduce spam). At some point my later day efforts SHOULD overshadow slightly poorer performance, especially if that performanve is not objectovely scummy (rather being painted as such) | ||
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Its definitely tougher to post freely and there is way less motivation to 'be around' if the thread is going how you like. | ||
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On January 27 2014 07:41 marvellosity wrote: You've been paying for that with my suspicions on you ever since, probably. And you will pay when you finally roll scum in a game with me | ||
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So will thread activity apparently.... Post on kita at some point tonight. | ||
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On January 27 2014 12:24 kitaman27 wrote: I ended up coming to my senses and skipped the pro bowl. I read through Foolishness's filter like three times and like 12 of his past games. While there was one mafia game on his which showed a focus on vote analysis over scum hunting, I also found several town games where he was happy to provide a list of players that likely contained the remaining mafia and lynch off that. I had anticipated that as mafia he was more likely to bully reads, but I didn't get a strong sense of that after reading. I did find once instance where he failed to acknowledge the existing cases against him, though I don't really want to read into that much, Going into the cycle, I intended to write a post about how he was mafia due to the lack of strong analysis on why certain players are mafia, unwillingness to reevaluate his read on Wave after 100 posts of new content, the way he seems to be willing to bet the game on marv/austin being town without a hint of concern and his priorities in using his time. All of these concepts still apply. However, I went into the evening more confident than I am now. In the end, I want a chance to at least look at the alternatives another time, mainly toad. I'm frustrated to see that I don't have a great amount of content to provide after spending another 2-3 hours reading. I'm back to work on Monday and I might be pretty busy in the evening, but I'll do the best that I can to put more time into this. Should I be convinced by this? I dunno, if you're saying that because of meta then Foolishness is likely town, then as I said earlier, the only possible scum from the 'non-confirmed' Foolishness list are you and Toad. I'm thinking some massive re-evaluation may need to be done here, but other than yours when I stop procrastinating and getting to it, I'm not doing any more massive filter-dive reads posts. Actually here's a question for you kita. It's a massive meta undertaking and it may be pretty useful (hell maybe I'll do it myself). Does Foolishness have other games where he barely dodges the noose like this? Does he often get lynched as town? ...I don't like it but I'm trying to come up with what happens if Foolishness really is town---I think it means Toad has to die. I dunno until I get to that searching ##Vote: Foolishness because I'm sticking to my guns right now and he hasn't done anything himself to change my mind since the last time he posted. | ||
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On January 27 2014 12:24 kitaman27 wrote: I ended up coming to my senses and skipped the pro bowl. I read through Foolishness's filter like three times and like 12 of his past games. While there was one mafia game on his which showed a focus on vote analysis over scum hunting, I also found several town games where he was happy to provide a list of players that likely contained the remaining mafia and lynch off that. I had anticipated that as mafia he was more likely to bully reads, but I didn't get a strong sense of that after reading. I did find once instance where he failed to acknowledge the existing cases against him, though I don't really want to read into that much, Going into the cycle, I intended to write a post about how he was mafia due to the lack of strong analysis on why certain players are mafia, unwillingness to reevaluate his read on Wave after 100 posts of new content, the way he seems to be willing to bet the game on marv/austin being town without a hint of concern and his priorities in using his time. All of these concepts still apply. However, I went into the evening more confident than I am now. In the end, I want a chance to at least look at the alternatives another time, mainly toad. I'm frustrated to see that I don't have a great amount of content to provide after spending another 2-3 hours reading. I'm back to work on Monday and I might be pretty busy in the evening, but I'll do the best that I can to put more time into this. This is how I feel halfway into your filter. I'm even pulling up meta on you I'm so desperate to find SOMETHING worthy of note but everything just seems so...'meh.' So many pressure votes D1, so many questions but very little commitment. Like...the Holyflare post and vote MAY be the most commitment you showed all that day, but you left yourself an out as usual and it was a weak read to begin with so I don't know what to call it other than another 'pressure vote.' My opinion on him will likely change based on his return to the thread, similar to sandroba. Like why so many outs needed? I know I'm not a confident guy D1 but I've seen your D1 in other games and I know you can come in strongly as either alignment. On January 24 2014 06:01 kitaman27 wrote: This is probably the best place to start with the voting analysis. With 50 minutes to go, the Foolishness vs Prom lynch is wide open. At this point, mafia has their choice of either player to flip. In a town vs town scenario, mafia generally prefer to vote the player that is not going to flip. That gives them an excuse to push the same player the next cycle, rather than finding a new target to go after. In town vs mafia, it can usually go two ways. A strong scum player will give their support to their scum buddy by voting the town candidate. From my experience, it is pretty rare to see a mafia player vote their own scum buddy in a close lynch early. A weaker scum player will generally wait until more town votes come in and there is a clearer picture of where the lynch is heading. They may decide to vote for their scum buddy later on if they think that is where the lynch is heading. If they can put their vote on an buddy that isn't going to flip, that's usually the preferred scenario. Next, sandroba comes in with his vote on Prom. This actually makes me reconsider my red Prom read. If it's town vs town here, sandroba doesn't really care and Prom is town. If it's town Prom vs mafia Foolishness, then the vote makes sense. A mafia prom vs a town foolishness doesn't make much sense. It would be incredibly risky to tie the vote up at 3v3 and his little reward. Sure, Foolishness could flip and sandroba might look better, but at the expense of endangering his scum buddy when he could make it 4v2? If the bus is going on, then it must have been a last minute decision because there is little interaction between the two in the thread. Not much reward there either. At this point, I also don't think the mafia team was thinking about a sandroba lynch. With 1/8 votes actually on Sandro, he knows he is going to get in trouble for showing up at the last minute, but I don't think mafia is in "lets bus sandroba" mode. Prom returns to the thread and moves his vote over to Foolishness. I had an issue with this at the time, but on second thought I think it's fine as town or mafia. He has already shared suspicion of Foolishness earlier in the thread and his vote is going no where on myself. He doesn't seem to consider sandroba, but it's possible that he doesn't see that as an option yet. Hapa joins Prom, Marv joins Foolishness. Not much to say here. Vote could still go either way. I think this vote from Holy eliminates a Fool-Holy and Prom-Holy mafia team. As a player without any value for the mafia team due to replacement, unless a mafia Holy is 100% cut off from all communication with his scum team, I think he would vote to save a buddy, rather than abstain, even if he wasn't totally caught up. At this point, it seems pretty likely that Foolishness is getting lynched with only 10 minutes left in the day. The vote swap to sandroba comes in the following order: gonzaw, austin, marv, Hapa, Prom I don't see this as a swap that was mafia driven. It's likely that they were caught off guard here. I have a strong town read on gonza/Hapa, and I'm thinking town Prom due to the reasoning above. marv I was suspicious of most of yesterday before the lynch, but he plays a strong role here and makes some good points throughout the later part of the cycle. Unless it's marv + foolishness (which seems unlikely), I'm leaning town on him as well. I don't feel that I have a good grasp on austin. He does play a role in the lynch by getting on sandroba 2nd in the swap, but he seemed mostly willing to go with where the town lead him. If Hapa/marv went to Prom instead, it seems like he would have joined them. If there is a mafia in this group of 5, it seems like it would be him, but I need to think more about that. Finally, we have Foolishness. Based on the way the votes went down, I'm struggling to see who the third scum buddy would be if he is mafia. I don't think he would be with Holy due to the reasons I mentioned earlier. Does VE or WoS really leave Foolishness out to dry by leaving the thread when he is in trouble? marv has too many interactions with him, unless they are trying to put on a show. Prom seems unlikely. gonzaw and Hapa look town, unless there is something I'm really overlooking. That really only lives Foolishness/sandroba/austin. I suppose that could be a possibility with austin being on the "anyone but Foolishness" side of things. It might also explain why austin was reluctant to vote prom when he seemed to be one of his preferred targets a bit before the swap since it would mean all three scum players would be on the same player, which could get ugly late game. I'm somewhat concerned with the fact that he doesn't seem to consider that I could be mafia at any point in the game. From my experience, I usually get called town by the mafia players, while town players are a bit more paranoid. sandroba and austin are also guilty of that this game. I'm probably still leaning town on him, though less so than others. It seems to be that the individuals who were absent are the ones most likely to be mafia (VE, WoS, Holy), which seems to be where the town is leaning as well. I'm going to reread all three when I have the time. I think I'm going to have to come back to this read later. I can't concentrate on the game right now. Preliminary thoughts are that large post probably comes from town because the way in which possible mafia partners work out and the way he outlines mafia thought processes but I need to do some in-depth thinking about it specifically that I just can't do right now. I think this vote from Holy eliminates a Fool-Holy and Prom-Holy mafia team. As a player without any value for the mafia team due to replacement, unless a mafia Holy is 100% cut off from all communication with his scum team, I think he would vote to save a buddy, rather than abstain, even if he wasn't totally caught up. This section I really don't like because it's been brought up multiple times and every time it's brought up I don't believe it---I see no reason a scum Holy doesn't throw his vote anywhere at random so he doesn't risk his replacement looking bad. There will be more on kita, but I fear it's going to be inconclusive in the end---I can never read kita. (Random meta shit says he may be town simply because he hasn't made any long aggressive cases against anyone that wasn't already under heavy suspicion---he is really good at that as scum. The Foolishness case MAY fit but I think I'd need to do a comparison that I just can't do right now.) | ||
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And before anyone says it, once again I don't and will not use RL as anything other than a true explanatioon as either alignment. Marv is it bad that I'm attempting to try to come around on Fool based on stuff kita said and looking at his massive analysis posts? I mean..glaring problem right now I see is its been well over 24h and he has not done anything of his own accord---im sure he'll show up eventually once pressured as always but then it'll seem meaningless. I just think the key to this game may be figuring Fool out once and for all. Are his analysis posts actually 'flawless' as he says? Despite all of the possible distraction, tunneling a nd odd reluctance to talk, is this town Fool's way? If so, again from my perspective Toad (or kita) could be the best lynch. | ||
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Prome I'm looking at you. Ill be back and active in about 3h for the rest of the day and then evening. My hope is that we can figure this shit out before tomorrow because I won't be around like...at all tomorrow until after lynch. | ||
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On January 28 2014 00:06 marvellosity wrote: This is even wonkier though, seems like Fool is threatening gonzaw, or gonzaw is suspicious, or something? But then immediately following these posts Fool is treating gonzaw as town again. What do you make of this Wave? (or anyone about who cares to read) None of Fool's recent posting reads like it comes from a townie, from his intransigence on the Wave read (along with the rationale), to the being ok but not ok but ok with the VE lynch, to being sure about Wave but saying he might be wrong, to the weird threats to gonzaw. I am frowning. I've mentioned this in talking about Fool before. The bullying Foolishness has been doing---is that typical of him? Because on its own that's incredibly anti-town, whatever his reasoning (I'm trying to my own thing/what's best for town and you're messing with me etc). As far as his utter confidence in the read of me, again it's the fact that he has held a tenacious grasp on that read when he didn't bother considering my D2 work more so than his willingness to drop it before the lynch imo, though I agree it looks fishy. | ||
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On January 28 2014 01:33 kitaman27 wrote: I think that's the most likely pair right now, but there is some degree of distancing between the two. Toad is attacking Foolishness, while Foolishness wants to bring Toad to lylo. I'll need to see if it seems likely that Toad is pushing the Foolishness lynch with the hopes of winning a 2v1 endgame, if he is town and has a legitimate scum read on Fool, or if he is mafia with another player that we're overlooking. At one point foolishness argues that we shouldn't consider lynching sandroba, while Holy is still around. Do you think it makes sense to attack one inactive scum buddy, while defending the other, which could be a risk if the wrong one flips first? Or is it more likely that he simply doesn't see Holy flipping that cycle after the replacement has been announced so he feels safe doing so? I think this post actually makes a Toad + Foolishness pair more likely. A lot of the time when you see a bus, you'll hear a mafia player say something along of lines of "I've told you guys, but you didn't listen" when the town alternative is about to flip. It could be a case of Toad knowing more than he should, since I think it definitely makes more sense to think that reading Foolishness the next day would be easier than reading the player that got frustrated with the thread and voted himself. This kind of post is what makes me think kita is town (along with that one I mentioned earlier, the long one). How easy is a post like this to make when he's talking about theoretical mafia POV? From a town perspective it sounds like a completely realistic mafia perspective but so much that it sounds fishy. Am I explaining this right? Essentially it truly sounds as though this is town trying to explain things from mafia POV rather than mafia explaining mafia POV. A lot of Toad's posts around that point (which I mentioned and Toad and I argued about briefly) just reek On January 26 2014 03:21 Toadesstern wrote: See I don't even mind that WoS vote but I really think Foolishness is the much better option today. The guy makes sense whenever he posts but as soon as he comes to some conclusion Sandro bad lynch despite having Sandro in his scumreads earlier on / WoS + Toad scumteam despite me voting WoS at that time and still harboring fuzzy feelings for him (not in a romantic way) it just goes batshit crazy. He doesn't even feel the need to explain his mafiareads and instead writes wall of texts about his relationship with prome. Like I said, I don't mind that WoS vote one bit but do you really think he's a better lynch than foolishness? All it looked like around this point in the day was him trying to get himself out of the 'strong scumread' on me based on his horrible case on post earlier. He tries to defend/explain himself here, but it just doesn't jive with me On January 26 2014 04:35 Toadesstern wrote: you're welcome. Also wtf is that kind of a question. I'm getting cold feet here as I'm seeing you and VE on the same guy I want lynched and you have the balls to call Foolishness 100% mafia and say it's either a bus from me or a townie being right? Sure I think Foolishness is the best lynch but I wouldn't have the balls to call it that 100% certain oO Also when I voted foolish it was 2-2-2 in votes. I might be called the reason you're "wagon" is losing steam, again you're welcome Like all of Toad's activity since that point feels like subtle buddying/apologizing to me for earlier D2 to get me off of him, and it actually kind of worked for a while. | ||
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Like, I can clearly outline a mafia thought process and agenda from within Toad's posting and how it's evolved over the game, but then of course we run into the 'who's his partner/who's he bussing' kinda problem, so marv, as you mentioned earlier we may just have to drop trying to come up with partners and lynch the scummiest. Assuming Fool doesn't come back (which is probably a bad assumption considering his play so far---always coming back or leaving exactly when it's perfect for him) I'd still go Fool--->Toad. And where the shit is Prome it's really really bad that he's not here. Mebbe a case of 'welp, confirmed town so I don't need to do shit anymore?' Doesn't seem like Prome to me. I really haven't been impressed with his play this game and I kind of hate the fact that we're semi-forced to ignore him as a suspect above all of the way scummier people. | ||
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'Cause as i remember it, I was the one who recognized my own state and chose to take a break from the thread. On January 25 2014 07:53 WaveofShadow wrote: an I want to put serious though into it when I'm not on my phone. I'm not being useful right now, just flinging shit at toad so ill bbl So that certainly doesn't explain your change of route. Not to mention the fact that I was pissed off at your case because of how terrible and obviously so it was. You're saying you opted not to keep pressure on me because of my emotional state? Would you have continued with the arguments you were pushing if I didn't yell at you, Toad? I'm pretty calm right now, would you like to continue to 'pressure' me about something? | ||
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On January 28 2014 03:37 Toadesstern wrote: yes I've been trying to be nice to you and you can call that buddying, but it's obviously a gross misrepresentation given that I still think you're scummy and still don't understand why Gonzaw thought you're town. You seem to be conveniently forgetting that part when talking about how I'm "buddying" you. Do me a favor and don't just read my filter, open those posts and look at those posts in context, especially read your own posts as well to get an idea. You were emotional, I tried to talk to you, you got super angry for no reason, you got pissed for no reason and you've been screaming and kicking in the thread whenever someone mentioned your name without praising you. I'm certaintly not buddying you, I'm ignoring you while you're impossible to talk to, may that be because you're faking emotions or because you're actually emotional. There was literally no point in talking to you so I stopped the hardcourse and instead tried a more relaxed approach to figure out if you'd still keep on doing that or if you'd chill down. If you look at my posts you'll find the exact same approach everytime someone posts emotional for an extended period, in this game for example VE. People are different and telling someone who's clearly screaming like a 5 year old to cool down while keeping pressure on them might be something gonzaw likes as an approach and it may work on a select few people but I think it's usually pointless. So yes I've been posting nicer when talking with you but I certainly wasn't buddying you. Gonzaw explained pretty damn clearly why he thought I was town, whether you believe it or not is another thing. Apparently you still think I'm scummy despite your change of direction and attack on Foolishness (which was in itself a soft defense of me at the time given what the thread was up to)? Go on, Toad, let's hear what still makes me scummy. I'm all ears. | ||
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On January 28 2014 03:57 Toadesstern wrote: and you'll realize that I started posting nice with you a lot sooner than that, but I'm sure you're aware of that as well. You even just admitted that you were pissed and yelling at me. Yes I don't talk with people who are yelling at me, remember rayn? Yes you do but you obviously don't seem to remember for whatever convenient reason right now. Yes probably. Most likely not with you but with other people but you kept derailing the thread whenever I mentioned your name so I stopped it. No, I still have to figure out if I'm wrong about you or Foolishness first or if Kita is the one being town and I don't see a lot of reason to talk about you with you. You say you calmed down but you don't seem to realize the way you're posting right now. Crazy conspiracy, tunnely without a reason, still emotional inbetween as can be seen in the above post and the first 2 can either be contributed to a scum plan or to actual emotions. I'd be willing to talk with other people about you For fuck sakes I just deleted my post. let's try again. What? Crazy consipracy? How is a scumread on you a crazy conspiracy? And how am i tunneling you without reason? I have offered plenty of reason. I defy anyone else in this thread to look at what I've written about you and say it doesn't at the very least appear true. As far as emotional goes, there's a difference between the emotional and the tone I'm using right now. it's called accusatory, and considering I believe yo to be scum, I think it's pretty appropriate. All this post looks like is you trying to opt out of conversation with me, kinda like Foolishness. If you believe Foolishness to be scum and you're doing the same thing he is...well..... On January 28 2014 04:06 Toadesstern wrote: [/red][/red]Okay let's give it a try. I'm cooking so I'll f5 every 3 or so minutes but keep that in mind. From your PoV Foolishness is you main suspect. You and I are the ones that ended up voting him. Kita was the one that got Foo into trouble innitially, I know he wasn't the one with the first vote but people started seriously considering him ever after his case. Kita was more than willing to help Gonzaw to get VE lynched. The lynch was between Foo and VE. Toad kept voting Foo, while Kita, the innitiator got off to ensure a VE lynch and help Gonzaw. You are certain that Foo is mafia. This story makes no sense. Ok so you are going to try and talk. Good. Now as far as things making no sense? Wrong. VE was a viable lynch target for yesterday, even I was strongly considering lynching him but in the end guts won out. I see no reason why a theoretical town kita wouldn't change his vote to VE. I have also explained multiple times why if you and Foolishness are scum a bus from makes some degree of sense, but how about you do me a favour? Why don't we drop the idea that Foolishness is scum altogether? What happens to this post then? | ||
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For a game we were so certain we had won by N1 because 'scum are in a shitty position,' with a mislynch behind us and nobody talking they don't appear to be in such a shitty position anymore. | ||
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On January 28 2014 04:22 Toadesstern wrote: [/red]only answering the last part right now because like I said, cooking: Then you end up with Kita + Toad. You are willing to drop your strongest mafia read in foolishness and consider me mafia as Kitas ally instead of going for the thing in comming, Kita being mafia according to you no matter what. fixed the tag btw. That post is kinda wonky but I think I understand what you mean. No, the difference is kita, not you. You're mafia no matter what. Kita could still be town and a theoretical town Foolishness's analysis could also be wrong and scum could be someone like austin. The point being that I'm kidna through with considering association---this may be why this game has been so difficult so far. Every time someone comes up with something viable/likely as a scumread, it gets shot down because 'well so-and-so can't be scum with so-and-so because insert unflipped association case here' I'm done doing that. I'm considering you scum based on your own merits entirely, so if you forget about what Foolishness's alignment is completely in your above scenario, then you simply look scummy for switching off of me when the attack turned to you. | ||
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FREE OF ASSOCIATION, the scumteam that makes the most sense to me at the current time is Foolishness/Toad. When one includes association, that scumteam is certainly not eliminated, but I don't see any merit to considering the association right now at all. If you want to defend yourself Toad, do it without associative tells. | ||
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I dropped Foolishness where? He is who I am voting right now. I am simply doing my best to cinsder all options, have a discussion with you, and scumhunt because as far as I remember even if I'm right about Foolishness and he is scum, I still have to find the second scum. Are you seriously trying to spin my words in this way? This is like the third example of you trying to misrepresent me in this game that I can think of, and I really don't like being misrepresented. I also really don't like being baited. Are you purposefully trying to make me angry again right now Toad? | ||
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On January 28 2014 04:48 Toadesstern wrote: Ok this is the last time I'm telling you that. I'm not trying to make you angry, you basicly accused me of posting too nicely whenever I'm talking with you just 5 minutes ago. That's your beef with me and you're telling me I'm actively trying to make you angry? One more of those posts and I'm done talking with you for good. You do consider your options but you completly drop Kita out of the equation which I don't see someone doing if you actually happen to be town. You don't see those blatant mistakes in your arguments that makes everything you're talking about just not work out. I'm sitting here trying to figure out which assumption of mine is wrong. I don't see you doing that, instead you're ignoring it and continuing like nothing happened. That's the exact same thing I mentioned last game. You should be sitting here thinking "what that doesn't make sense, let's try to figure out why" instead of just ignoring it and continuing like nothing happened. First of all don't threaten me. I don't respond to threats. Second I drop Kita out right there because you said to me 'Kita must be mafia no matter what,' when that is simply not the case. Kita could very well be scum, true, but my current read of him has me attempting to consider him town. I'm not even going do discuss your nicely subtle discrediting of everything I've done in that second paragraph. Very nice. Like...how could you say I am not trying to consider my options when I take by top scumread since like D2 and try to consider him town in the scenario I offered you, and THEN you have the audacity to say 'Look at how scummy he is he flipped his scumread of Foolishness,' and THEN when I explain myself you say I'm not open to options? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? | ||
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On January 28 2014 04:54 Toadesstern wrote: for crying out loud, you were CERTAIN that VE was a townie and now you came in and tell me you, that at that time you thought the VE was a good one? Objectively he likely was. Yo won't find me in my post-lynch rant calling VE a terrible lynch anywhere---and i've done that before. I have railed against lynches before (I can't think of an example right now but if you absolutely need the example I can find one later tonight). He had all but opted out of the game, had a lot of things goign against him, but my personal townread on him overshadowed much of that---I'm couldn't rightly expect everyone else to drop their scumreads or at 'wanting-to-lynch- of VE for the so-called 'terrible reasons' I had for considering him town in the first place, could I? If I were better at this game and/or had more time I would have been there trying to push against VE and would have actually been able to explain myself better but I couldn't and I wasn't. Doesn't mean I don't understand why he was lynched. | ||
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On January 28 2014 04:59 Toadesstern wrote: Done talking with you about you. Anything else you want to talk about? You don't get to be done, Toad. You haven't answered any of my major questions to a satisfactory degree. Can you give me a non-bullshit reason why you think I'm scummy? Because I haven't heard one yet. | ||
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I still have stuff to write about kita so I'm going to go attempt that again. | ||
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On January 28 2014 07:55 Promethelax wrote: Howdy Boys, I'm back. Sorry for my absence. Work and I had a disagreement about my free time which work won. I have a few hours tonight and all day tomorrow though and I plan on using that time to my advantage in this game. My goals for the next 24 hours are to filter dive all living players with a primary focus on Kita/WoS/Toad/Fool My secondary goal is to spend time discussing with Austin a conspiracy theory fermenting in the depths of my sanity-lacking mind. I hope he can dispel the notion from my head. My tertiary goal is to prove my townienss to the thread since, with my long absences, there should be some amount of doubt about my towniness and, due to our position it would be a great benefit to town to eliminate town players from the lynchable pool. Anyone who has any questions for me should feel free to ask them. FYI: I am not up to date with the thread. My filter dive begins with Toad. Updates to follow. Read the thread first. Also did you include Holy in your page count re: Toad? He joined late so it's not exactly fair. (I also worry about using thread-count metrics to look into people. While it does have merit in most games even though some people argue it doesn't, in this game it seems to already have created some controversy around me. I'd prefer if that doesn't become the focus for when people inevitably critique your reads.) | ||
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On January 28 2014 09:33 kitaman27 wrote: I can't imagine his game plan is to essentially not post and think he's going to look good coming out of it. However, I've waited and waited and waited for him to provide an updated analysis of Wave, but at this point, his case is still based off the actions of night one. At this point, I'm not going to be satisfied with one big large case about how he has solved the game because it's too little too late, unless he brings up points that I have honestly not considered that are so compelling that they have to make sense. He must know that he is on the chopping block, but it's hard to say how much time he has. The reason I'm willing to say he is mafia is that the time he does have, he is using it to perform a Prom town analysis, which shows he has no understanding for what the town is looking for out of him. This appears to still be why Toad thinks I'm scum as well. It couldn't be that easy, could it? Both scummers doing the same thing for a day and a half? Random thought: kita (or maybe marv?) didn't you say something about Foolishness afking for the rest of some game and then he was lynched? What of this one? | ||
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On January 28 2014 09:53 kitaman27 wrote: Would someone be willing to take 10 minutes on austin for me to see if we're seeing the same things? I feel he has been under the radar for too long now. I will admit I may have been a little too hasty in ignoring him for semi-confirmed town earlier. I will look shortly. Mind answering my Qs? | ||
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On January 28 2014 10:07 marvellosity wrote: the only thing that made me at all paranoid about austin was when he said "i only bust my ass when my mafiateam is losing" sort of thing. Seems a weird sort of thing to say if you're planning on afking for quite a while though If he's scum then he is a primary reason his mafia team is losing. (Not that I really think they're losing at this point considering how much trouble we're having) Kita thanks for outlining that. I guess the only issue I might have is the abruptness of the flip onto the idea of Foolishness scum, which is interspersed with the fail case on me---I guess it makes more sense outlined in front of me though I still don't see how he went into this entertaining the idea of me and Foolish scumteam. Could be bias speaking but it looks like he regrets giving Foolish a townread when he didn't quite deserve it and is covering his bases with that first post, not thinking whether having me/Foolish made sense? I guess if people don't have as much a problem with Toad then, it looks like we may be defaulting to FOolish today, which I can't say I have a problem with---I guess it's more the combination of the earlier thread silence + the idea that scumteam probably knows Foolish is being lynched today.... /paranoia | ||
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Foolishness for the love of crap, will you please stick around so that people can talk to you? | ||
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Also I really am going to be mad if this is Foolishness's 'flawless analysis' and all of my early reads were stomped into the ground and I was called scum for them when they were right. If so it means I guess I may have to work on how to get reads across in a believable way. Aaaanyway, just sitting here, waiting to talk with him..... And for other people to do so as well, because I really would expect everybody in the thread to jump all over this. | ||
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On January 28 2014 10:35 marvellosity wrote: yes, he is, and I want to know pretty sharpish why he's not putting me on the table given he clearly hints at that in numerous places. If it weren't for sheer effort alone this looks like scumclaiming. I want to wait to hear it from him because I have something in mind, actually. Foolishness even if your read on the final scum isn't done, I think we need to something, or at least for you to let us know there's something coming very soon. I'm really not a fan of this 'diarrhea into thread and then disappear' strategy. I'm well aware the way things are done on TL Mafia have changed over the years and some people don't prefer the conversational style, but it's all I know, and I know it works for me. | ||
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On January 28 2014 10:40 marvellosity wrote: why did this have to occur at 1:30am with work the next day. sadness. K I'm going to be very careful with this new Foolishness business---if there's one thing he's proved to us this game, it's that he's really fucking good at stirring shit up. Foolishness's thread timing has been....uncanny in regards to when he decides to show up or leave. | ||
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On January 28 2014 10:50 marvellosity wrote: So Foolish thinks Prome and marvellosity are mafia, when Prome and marvellosity staying on Fool day 1 means he's going to get lynched? It's 5 (fool) 3 (prome) 2(sand) when I jump off Fool to sand, and Prome follows sometime after to help secure the lynch on sand (give or take hapa) Why at 5 3 2 am I moving across exactly? Be patient and let him answer marv. | ||
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I'm not going to be around for Foolishness's magical return right around lynch time (for a change) So if he doesn't answer some of my questions now, I won't have a chance to switch my vote off of him as after tonight, I'm gone 'till tomorrow night. | ||
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GODDAMN IT THERE IS NO ROOM FOR LEVITY MAFIA IS SRS BSNS | ||
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Well I guess my vote stays where it is then. Foolishness you'll have to convince the others because without having a conversation with you I can't just wipe away all that has been discussed on you with the posting of your essays. | ||
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Awful lot of assumptions being made on this page Where does Fool talk about going for me OR marv explicitly? Foolishness this is why you really needed to show uo yesterday If you're town and actually put in that effort its a real shame but you don't seem to understand that the way you have been playing this game doesn't quite fit with what town needs from you. | ||
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I wanted to hear that stuff from him to try and get a read rather than have people put words in his mouth---now he may get all defensive about it which might convolute a read Not that I have time to read much today really | ||
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On January 28 2014 21:19 Promethelax wrote: Wave: it is in his fourth post under "what if promethelax is town" Really? K I reread | ||
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And marv I know you were implicitly indicated but I wanted to see if hed actually meant you or go for austin | ||
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If you're both mafia, welp o.O | ||
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On January 29 2014 04:48 austinmcc wrote: WoS Stuff Starts off poking at Kita about Sandroba. Can go either way. Very much not worried about Foolishness's early vote on him (F voted WoS for his first post) Back and forth with Kita about Sandroba. Scummy points for referencing positively Foolishness's comment on Sandroba engaging the thread actively In this post, if the team is actually marv/sand/prome, WoS accidentally catches the mafia team - + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2014 05:37 WaveofShadow wrote: In relation to what gonzaw just posted, I feel like the above could be applied as well to either marv or snadroba----and actually starts to mesh with the idea that I haven't been feeling anything at all from marv all game aside from a little bit of agreement in some posts that I quoted earlier in my filter. Taking a closer look at marv. WoS, just before his Foolishness vote, has a bunch of posts on Foolishness/prome/marv/sandro. Not trusting Foolishness, who had posted a case-y thing and a vote on Prome. Asking Gonzaw about Gonzaw's vote, wondering whether Gonzaw would prefer marv or sandro. It FEELS legit. He doesn't just sheep Gonzaw's vote, there's a lot of leadup that FEELS townie to me, where WoS is looking at Prome and Foolish a lot but never really doing anything super mega conclusory with them. I like WoS's conclusion that at least one scum was on the Sandroba wagon. It was against the grain, but he's not using it to try and paint anyone in particular as scummy. He just explains WHY he thinks there's a scum or multiple scum on sandroba, says it's unlikely me or gonzaw (for reasons). I really really like his thoughts after the Sandroba lynch. Neato. I feel good about WoS's D1. I like WoS's break in his catchup posts to tell people to stop commenting on fluff in the way that they are. That reads real townie in the middle of his other junk, when he's not attacking anyone in particular, and I like it. I want to stop now. Also, I'm going to. Phoneposting cause this weirded me out Wtf waste of time is this. Why is your read on me impoortant right now? Why is it all based on D1 play when you coiuld have come to the same conclusions yesterday BUT YESTERDAY YOU THOUGHT I WAS SCUM Foolishness I am not the key to this game. You are. | ||
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I wanted to hear who YOU think is scum. I still do. | ||
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Unacceptable townplay from austin/foolishness. Where was this shit 2 days ago I almost want to stay on foolishness purely based on principle. I get the feeling if he flips town Prome is confirmed scum for some reason but I have to go back and read shit but I won't have time for a while postlynch | ||
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^^fakerage | ||
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On January 29 2014 06:16 marvellosity wrote: Townie mindset 101 Option 1) Make 2 towncases, one on someone who MAY get lynched, one who's not even on the table to be lynched Option 2) Make mafia case on the 2nd mafia who is "in the bag" Hum Is foolishness known for making towncases? Be honest. Although considering his towncases and mafiacases have flipped exactly in this game I don't even know what anymore. KISS says foolishness should have been lynched twice so we lynch him. To some degree I also want to say KISS says the effort he put in with his essays makes him town but the WAY in which those were done makes me say no. Vote stays | ||
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Plus shenannies are fun | ||
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I don't mind being wrong about my initial townread on austin it was pretty weak but there will be plenty of time for that. I'm really just hoping fool is mafia so I can keep using my tell to some degree I think the only person its ever failed me on is Rayn in persona but thayts cause tunnel rayn is crazy as shit and town shouldn't act that way | ||
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Too many town-marv things this game + mindmelds The only thing that would make me facepalm if we lose to him was that feel I got early on for never thinking he is scum when I ALWAYS do | ||
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On January 29 2014 06:44 Foolishness wrote: Fine. Regardless does this matter now? Look at the evidence against Promethelax. Can you really read what I said about him and say that he's town? yu should have been here one of the myriad times I was in thread to discuss this with me. I can't do this from my phone. Too little too late---if you flip town I will re-read everything you have written. You have my word. | ||
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You know how hypocritical that is I'm sure, but it could also be applied to a lot of people in the thread. EXCEPt MEEEEE But yeah foolishness surely you would be one to know scumhunting>>all right? So much unflipped association shit in this game that everyone got dragged into. I think gonzaw and kita might have been prett good about it too | ||
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Fuck vote D1 vote analysis. | ||
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On January 29 2014 06:54 Foolishness wrote: I mean, I understand where you're coming from. I said that my time was limited and I would be here when I could. But really -_- True, and that's why ill feel kinda bad if you flip town, but you must admit, much of the timing between you and I appeared as if you were purposefully avoiding me. (I'm not lynching you because of that) | ||
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Aside from austin being missing a lot, notably his jovial trolly nature has been missing too. Must compare some games. | ||
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On January 29 2014 06:58 Foolishness wrote: I thought you were here the second time I posted yesterday but you weren't and I fell asleep =/ Then why are you lynching me? You said you already feel bad about it. Remember what you said about Promethelax and VE earlier in the game. You were on the money, just everyone else was looking at this game from different angles (the wrong angles too I might add) so the discussion didn't go anywhere. But now it can. Youir second post was like almost 3h later I think. I was long gone. Just because I was right about VE doesn't mean I'm suddenly town god and right about everything. Are my reasons for thinking Prome is scum suddenly good? And kita, I will not participate in shenannies today. The biggest ???? In the game needs to be lynched (and I can't be certain I can phonepost then) | ||
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Also you can't say I feel bad because I know its going to happen. I have doubts, but ill feel really good if you flip scum---that doesn't mean I know you're flipping scim 100% I find that a very odd thing to say. | ||
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But that doesn't make you town, nor does it necessarily make prome scum This is the cinversation we needed to have while I was around dude No shitflinging, no giant-ass posts. I needed a real read of you that wasn't simply focused on your ability to pre-think evrything GL w lynch guys I have an idea where to go from here and regardless of the outcome I think we'll get a ton of info if the course is stayed | ||
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Anything faked in there? (Did you talk about it already?) | ||
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Do eet Kita hurry | ||
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It TASTES SO SWEET | ||
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Don't see why scum fool would keep it going right on the deadline | ||
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K prome dies tomorrow. Could this be the scum marv game I've been longing for? ONLY TiME WiLL TELL | ||
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I just really wish we talked more, buddeh. Was thinkin of dem shenannies but phonepositng makes it too hard. | ||
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No wait fuck being demoralized, we're going to win this game. No excuses. Hey marv, y u no lead town? Will probably do some analysis and stuff later but now I gotta eat some delicious stew. | ||
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On January 29 2014 09:18 marvellosity wrote: go away Wave. Dunno why Foolish was pushing his bullcrap on me. Don't suppose I can steal kita's mercy kill :x lol I can always hope because I'm the confirminest town around they'll kill me but I highly doubt it. It'll actually be really good because whoever they kill tonight eliminates some shit for me. I'm not going away marv. Unless I get killed of course. And hey, I didn't say I wanted to lynch YOU, did I? | ||
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Lay your head in my lap and I will stroke your hair and sing you lullabies, and tell you stories of mafia scum hanging from trees, their bodies rocking slowly in the wind. | ||
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On January 29 2014 09:28 marvellosity wrote: I'm glad you haven't joined in the stupid Wave. Can't tell if sarcasm, honestly. | ||
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I'm pretty sure he is #1 for me tomorrow but I'm going to want to be sure for my own reasons, not simply 'Foolishness solved the game' reasons. Does Foolishness usually solve a game though? I mean I assume his analysis obviously isn't always flawless but is he one of those people who always figures it out if left long enough? | ||
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Thoughts on this. Go. On January 29 2014 06:09 WaveofShadow wrote: Phoneposting cause this weirded me out Wtf waste of time is this. Why is your read on me impoortant right now? Why is it all based on D1 play when you coiuld have come to the same conclusions yesterday BUT YESTERDAY YOU THOUGHT I WAS SCUM Foolishness I am not the key to this game. You are. | ||
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On January 29 2014 09:46 Toadesstern wrote: Not an issue for me. He was after you d2 and so was I. So I don't really see a problem there, seems like stated for clarity. Um. Do you read? Everything he called me townie for in that post is from D1. Why did he call me scum on D2 if he found my D1 townie? | ||
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Why did he call me scum D2 if he found my D1 townie? What were his reasons? | ||
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On January 29 2014 09:51 Toadesstern wrote: referring to this: Seems like he had the same intention to make things clear as I did. Yeh you had reasons. They were terrible, but reasons nonetheless. I hated them, but they were reasons. Austin....? | ||
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Just went through his filter. Can't find it. | ||
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There is no analysis of me. Every time he talked about me on D3 it's always to talk about that stupid argument with marv and whoever whether I should or shouldn't be considered town based on alignment. It's completely irrelevant but he doesn't let it die, and he never ACTUALLY calls me scum throughout any of the time he's making that argument. | ||
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On January 26 2014 06:51 austinmcc wrote: A lot of his filter is his GIANT posts. The size doesn't necessarily equate to content though. His giant giant posts are VE is town, Prome is scum. But his reasons for VE being town are kinda murky, and he spends boatloads and boatloads of time on all these little things that make Prome scum, despite Prome being pretty much off the table (it would seem for WoS as well? I have not seen him pushing Prome lately). So while there's a lot, a bunch of it is stuff that nobody really believes, and it picks up after we lynch a mafia. You can say he's responding to pressure by posting a bunch, either side can do that (I know not all mafia do, but I know I've gone post-crazy as mafia, and we don't have a good example of WoS's scumplay so it's unknown). Maybe it's knowing that town lynched mafia D1 and WoS/buddy need to kick things into gear and take control. Add in Hapa and others finding his D1 scummy. Whatever his D2 is, his D1 still exists. Also just minor nitpicky stuff. Putting some credence in the argument that sandroba was around and active. The entire reason for his scumread is because of my posts on VE and Prome (which apparently should be a-ok in everyone's books according to town-Foolishness now)? Well THAT explains why Austin thinks I'm town now! Foolishness said it was ok and he flipped town! LOL AND THE BLODED He calls me scum based on my D1 here and now he calls me town based on it.... Austin/Prome scumteam? I hope to god that makes sense when I look through it later. | ||
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On January 29 2014 10:38 austinmcc wrote: Anyway, WoS, lemme know if looking at that post as an answer to the question "Can someone tell me why WoS isn't town" makes more sense. I viewed it as a fun exercise to give the reasons you were mafia, in the same vein as my asking you what you would have smacked your forehead over if Gonzaw flipped mafia. Apart from that, interested to hear from prome about all the later-in-the-day happenings. So....you're trying to play it off as a semi-joke post or an 'exercise' not rooted in reality? Because you seemed pretty serious about thinking I was scum to me. | ||
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On January 29 2014 10:47 austinmcc wrote: Read the question I'm responding to with THAT POST. If the whole rest of the day gives you trouble, that's a different issue. But if THAT POST is particularly egregious, that post is in response to a question that says, "I don't see it, someone tell me how WoS could be mafia." When responding to that, I'm going to post why you might be mafia. Did you or did you not think I was scum for a portion of that day? | ||
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On January 29 2014 10:55 austinmcc wrote: Thought there was a pretty good chance? That day, I would have put you above prome, gonzaw, kita, toad, myself. Lower than VE. PROBABLY higher than marv, he hadn't gone full suspicious for me yet. You were with Foolishness as possible second mafia. But honestly I wasn't too concerned about your alignment that day. My main concern about you was how people were referring to your activity, not your own alignment. As second place scum you should be concerned about me. Everybody else was concerned about the entire scumteam. Do you understand why this looks so dodgy to me? You are making excuses and trying to pass your scumread off as 'not really a legit read because it doesn't matter but maybe I would have lynched you.' | ||
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On January 29 2014 20:28 Promethelax wrote: We lynch austin tomorrow. This is not even a debate. He had a scummy switch to sand d1 he has played under the radar. He was the only vote not on foolishness d3. Austin's behaviour has been scummy the only reason he wasn't scum is that he and fool were not scum together. Hmm. I seem to be very short of convinced. I also don't see what made his switch to sandroba scummy when nobody considered it as such days ago. | ||
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On January 29 2014 20:49 Promethelax wrote: I fully assume the lynch will be between me and someone else. Don't care. I'm town and if I pick a scum target to be up against I'm pretty sure I can get him lynched over me. I assume I'll also be the mislynch target for 2v1 Lylo but I don't mind. I've been there before and none of you are stutters so I should be able to convince the other townie of the scum. I know this is dumb but I'm feeling confidant of a town win still. I'm not. And I'm willing to be at this point I probably have the most control over who gets lynched and who doesn't, a power I don't particularly relisj at this point. Another thing to look into for later: Who was trying particularly hard to dismiss bus ideas (without proof/reason ie Foolishness) | ||
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On January 29 2014 20:55 Promethelax wrote: I did. His and marv's were both scummy. Sand is a detriment to his team. When he is up against two townies in me and foolishness you need to make sure you look good from his flip because it will come d1 or d2. So quick switching around deadline when I had clearly had foolish as more scummy and Hapa wasn't present was an easy way to do that. Scum expected not to get sand lynched d1 but to look good from having voted him but Hapa and I went over in the last two minutes and scum could not change their votes, they were stuck on sand. The middle votes were scummy. On top of that the scum shots have all been into the group of players who voted sand to reinforce the idea that everyone on that vote was town. Shooting outside of it would have been fine to eliminate players like Kita who had no suspicion on him and is a better analyst than Gonzaw. But they needed the idea of fool's to take hold. I hope you realize how annoyed I am that all of a sudden people are all like 'scum bussed sandroba lololol' when I was saying it all game and shot down. | ||
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You make comments like this all the time, for the record | ||
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If anything considering how terrified I know people were of rolling scum in this game because of how stacked the playerlist was, I would argue this game was the PERFECT game for unorthodox scumplays. I'm also pretty sure I've said allllll of this before. | ||
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WORK. | ||
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On January 30 2014 02:12 austinmcc wrote: It's a great game for playing wonky scum. But, to me, he's not pushing the idea that scum just played weird/unorthodox. He's giving a specific reason for their targeting of NKs. And that reason is "there was scum on the sandroba lynch, and mafia is killing the townies on the sandroba lynch to make it look like it was all town." To which I say: (1) One guy on the lynch flipping town doesn't make the others look more town. They're town/scum based on their own play and filters, not the alignment of someone ELSE who voted the same target. (2) I think people who lynch scum get town cred for LYNCHING SCUM. The moment sandroba is lynched, look at thread, the people on his lynch were "untouchable", etc. It wasn't "well let's wait and see if 2-3 of these guys flip town, and only THEN can we trust the sandroba lynch was townie." It's NEVER like that. I think his comment doesn't say "i think scum is playing unorthodox," because a D1 bus would be somewhat unorthodox. I think that I'm having problems with the fact that he's ... saying scum played a certain way in order to manipulate town's opinion, when (a) town would already have the opinion they want without any further manipulation and (b) the manipulation wouldn't actually change the opinion he's talking about. This is a fantastic post, actually. Will look into later along w/everything else. | ||
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Its a real shame I know where the NK is going. Not that it makes a big difference either way, I should be able to push through what I want tomorrow but the question is what DO I want? Marv, what do I want? | ||
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Not only does this not help, but it looks shitty because everyone else pointed it out. + Show Spoiler + Unless you actually make me laugh with something. | ||
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On January 30 2014 04:06 kitaman27 wrote: I'd rather spend the extra time looking if a Prom pair makes sense. It's pretty likely that Prom was in the top two lynch list to begin with, so it's not like I'm introducing a new mafia suspect and opening myself up to a night kill. If you had to pair someone with Prom, where are you at? I suppose I'd understand if you wanted to wait to answer so mafia doesn't pick people off based on their response, but if you get shot based on your answer, I'll have more time so I'm not entirely concerned. Nah I'm not going to be shot despite the fact that I'm off the table for tomorrow; (Even if Austin for some reason won't drop it) scum keeps me around because I have a history of being shit at LYLO. I've kidna forgotten about Toad so I dunno where I am on that. Thinking of it now I figure much of our downfall this game has been association so I don't think I want to start looking into waht pairs make sense and what don't. We REALLY should be lynching on merits alone, and then once we have a flip we can start attempting to associate (but even then I'd lean towards solo analysis). | ||
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Austin town, Prome scum, that's easy enough. It's the final day that's going to prove difficult. Marv or Toad? | ||
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On January 30 2014 09:20 austinmcc wrote: How do you feel about Foolishness's anti-case on Toad? Like...really read and explain and whatnot plox? There is much to do. All in good time, sweet austin. I should totes lynch you for picking Trundle though. | ||
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On January 30 2014 10:06 austinmcc wrote: I love me some trundle right now, except that you pillar CD so long that you can't actually stick on 85% of people. And yet, I've been losing games like crazy unless I ADC. But that is for another day. I'm interested in marv's kita response and your thoughts on Foolishness's Toad bit. I assume I know your thoughts on my thoughts on Toad. I honestly can't remember. And that's why first order of business is to re-read a bunch of the thread. | ||
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On January 30 2014 10:33 Toadesstern wrote: Also seems like mafia is trying to get WoS into lylo as the weekest link, was to be expected. Foolishness had him on 3rd most likely mafia, Austin as well and so do I. At the same time WoS had mighty paranoia about me and apparently austin as well. Seems like mafia wants some kind of WoS + either me or Austin lylo + whatever is left after prome, right?' Hoping that one of us gives in and votes ends up voting WoS over Marv? Pretty much confirms that there's mafia in Marv/Prome/Austin at this point and austin is town, so really keep on lynching Ehhhhh. Not sure I agree with the way you came to your conclusion, but by Jove I certainly agree with the results! ##Vote: Promethelax | ||
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And even then no guarantees Myast couole of days have been really rough Didn't get to do anything I wanted to | ||
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On January 30 2014 21:06 marvellosity wrote: Hallo Wave. Just been flicking through your filter. You're in luck! Why am I in luck btw | ||
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On January 31 2014 01:19 austinmcc wrote: I don't know if you read thug life or not. I dunno how closely you read LXIII while hosting. But I have had very good luck recently calling people town, often for strange reasons, and being correct. In most of those cases, it's not about the sum total of what happens, it's about a specific thing or couple things someone did, how they posted. I'm going to trust I'm right for now on this one. You don't have to. But at the very least, this is something that has proven to work out, on the whole, well for me, so I'll stick with it until it doesn't. Oh, so you mean like my townread on VE you found scummy? | ||
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I'm wracking my brains to try to come with the best way to WIFOM the shit out of scum to make nex day LYLO super easy for me. I'm thinking don't trust stuff I say today 100%, vcause I have some fun ideas but I don't know if its worth the effort or not yet. Really want to get back to do that reread of the last 20 pages or so but can't guarantee my activity tonight. I can guarantee my activity during the day tomorrow pre-lynch though again it seems as though prome dies no matter what marv does so I don't know if it matters. The read is for my own purposes---i think everything I'm doing now is in prepapration for tomorrows LYLO. That feels like a dumb thing to do but its where my mind is right now | ||
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And move deadline like 2h ltater kthx | ||
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Who said that Prome's game beginning was not like LX and why? I remember agreeing with it but I'm curious | ||
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Another thing to look at later | ||
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Whatevs ill look later Also toyig with the idea of not even bothering to put my reread conclusions/thoughts in thread | ||
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DOO EET | ||
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On January 31 2014 06:15 marvellosity wrote: What have I always told you about dumb stuff like this? Too late to call me dumb this game, honey | ||
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Toad why couldn't you find that? Marv what do you think my reasons are for not putting thiughts in thread when that's what I do all game every game? | ||
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On January 31 2014 06:21 marvellosity wrote: I've never seen you parading about that you're hiding what you're thinking at lylo maybe i need to pay more attention That's not a very good answer. Is the only way for yu to answer that question to find a past game of mine where I did this? | ||
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Also you wanted to talk to me bout stuff, here I am | ||
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(Unless ithe game gets sidelined for me like last night) Ill give you the answer to my question later too, not that you'll probably care | ||
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On January 31 2014 06:39 marvellosity wrote: Because hiding thoughts at lylo is just obviously dumb unless you're *that* sure that this lynch is correct. Which you could be I suppose. I'm about to be PC-less again momentarily, bf's and shiz :p will maybe try to phonepost. Anyway the main stuff was about austin, as per my post a couple of pages back directly addressing you Kk will get to that. And yeah you're mostly right minus one detail but its good enough | ||
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On January 31 2014 10:23 marvellosity wrote: Been checking through VE's filter for Prome thoughts. Possibly this is the strongest thing in there. I defended Prome on ego partly because I was totally convinced Fool was pushing for a mislynch, but this stuff nonetheless remains true. "there's no POP" is really an excellent description. Gonna keep noting this because it keeps happening all game, but I really liked this point when he made it, and noted it as well. I think it may have also been a point in my original Prome case? I froget. It's allllllll in my filter. Also I am here now and reading and will be for the majority of the night if people have anything. | ||
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On January 31 2014 10:30 marvellosity wrote: Alright Wave, you're awesome. Happy? :p Some of us are going back to relook for ourselves, now shoo. Or talk to me about austin, up to you, i can't be up for much longer. Not awesome enough. And relooking is exarctly what I've been doing. Alright let me go look at your post again. | ||
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On January 31 2014 00:20 marvellosity wrote: Wave, talk to me a bit about how you've ordered your reads. Primarily I'm not quite getting how you've lumped austin into town and I'm outrageously lumped into the remaining suspicious pile. Have you reconciled yourself with the weird shit that austin has done this game? His, imo, unreasonably strong townread on Toad/Holy based on almost nothing. His attack on Prome for a really weird reason that still no-one has agreed with, and yet for some reason he's particularly suspicious of me for not agreeing with it. The fact he's always come in super-late to push any lynch, on every single day so far. His 100% absurd attack on me for when I said "vote your strongest read" when in context it was fucking obvious I was talking about day 3. I clarified and he continued the attack on the same basis. It's totally absurd that he's really trying to catch me out for being "hypocritical" for day 1 reads and voting compared to day 3 actions. Anyways, tell me what you're seeing that makes you confident in his alignment, plox. I'm not 100% confident. Can you give short outlines of the stuff you're talking about here when you outline the problems with austin? There are things that wig me out about him, but there's things that wig me out about everyone this game, if you haven't noticed. VE and Foolishness obviously included and I came to differing conclusions about them based on the feels they gave me throughout the game. (If Foolishness had shown up earlier and done what he did at deadline I think I would have switched tbh, but that doesn't matter). I actually understood to some degree what austin was getting at at the time to be honest. I also don't find the line of thought scummy in any way, really. He dropped when you explained it the best, here. On January 29 2014 07:14 marvellosity wrote: Because day 3 is not day 1 Are you being purposefully obtuse? You can find plenty of games of mine where I day 1 shenannie. No games where I am not voting my strongest read day 3. It's exceptionally simple to understand His defenses of the other weird shit he's done (like having me as town AND scum based on D1) here: On January 29 2014 11:18 austinmcc wrote: Yeah, I understand completely. That's why I'm actually explaining and not going "LOL WRONG" or "I changed my mind" or whatever. I think you have a legitimate point. I can give you SOME of the reasons, especially to that single post. I think if you look at my posting from that day as a whole, i DON'T have you as townie, but I certainly don't have you there with VE. MOST of the statements I make regarding your scumminess should be concern for other people being overly townie on you, which causes me to swing the other way, or be skeptical. I don't believe, however, that I freely post about why you're mafia or why you're super likely mafia, or whatever. But yeah, it's perfectly fine if you're concerned. I'm also not super worried, because I don't think that I'm the lynch tomorrow under any normal circumstances, and i THINK that if things are falling into place for us and we lynch scum, you will be concerned with my play, confused with my play, but think that I have to be townie. I don't care if you question me or are worried by me, only that you give prome a real loo. Giving prome/marv a real look as a duo would be sexy as well, as giving OTHER people a real look would be further sexy. actually remind me a great deal of the kind of posting YOU do to as town alleviate my suspicions of you in other games. Which notably, you haven't done in this game. I'm not gonna lie, some of the stuff on town Austin right now is simply feels. And considering how this game has gone, I don't mind going on feels right now. | ||
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On January 31 2014 10:40 austinmcc wrote: If I'm gonna post serious though, then the non-prome mafia needs to figure out who to paint as the final scum and who to leave alive at endgame. The sooner you take stances, even if you're just gonna go back on em or whatever, about who pairs well and who doesn't, blah blah, the better imo. That's one reason I'm particularly interested. And this is what I've been considering all day. The final part to my earlier 'bad' question marv, is the fact that ultimately I will be the decider in this game; I've been saying it for a while. There's not a whole lot of convincing I have left to do here for today as I'm pretty sure today's lynch is set in stone right now, and tomorrow it will be me and two people who are voting for each other. As such there really isn't much reason for me to start posting my reads and thoughts because nobody needs to be convinced of MY alignment, and nobody is going to change their minds based on what I say. The re-read of which I am currently in the middle is to get my own head straight, and to fuel the questions that may or may not need to be answered by the remaining members of this game. | ||
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On January 31 2014 10:50 austinmcc wrote: (He also was poking at sandroba D1, and sandroba responded to his posts, so either we were setting up action (against...prome?) or we can't talk in a QT. He was also willing to vote prome or sandroba D1, did not want to vote foolishness even when foolishness was seriously up for lynch) (He also didn't drop that point. Marv's statement was that you vote the scummiest candidate, PERIOD. Not that you do so on D3, not that you do so sometimes, but that you do this, PERIOD. I think the D3 vs D1 stuff is as nonsensical as he thinks I'm being. If you believe you always vote the scummiest candidate, the day doesn't matter. If the day matters, then you don't actually believe you always vote the scummiest candidate) Well if you haven't dropped it, you should because that comment is not a scum-marv comment. As town I would totally randomly switch on shenannies if I felt enough like it was townie-led and I didn't know what I was doing D1---though maybe that's BECAUSE I don't usually know what to do D1...? Like, I get the point but I don't think it's a strong one. And austin don't bracket-put words in my mouth. I don't need to look for extra reasons to figure out your alignment to prove to anyone else. | ||
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On January 31 2014 10:51 marvellosity wrote: I basically found it suspicious because it seemed so obvious what I was talking about, and it shouldn't have to require me shouting the really obvious context at him to make him stop going down that path. Apparently if you empathised and understood at the time, then it wasn't quite correct for me to find it that off. Ok. Is there anything else? Do you think the final scumteam is austin and prome? Is Toad involved? | ||
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On January 31 2014 10:54 marvellosity wrote: Well don't do anything superdumb like not post definitively in resolution period (assuming we get that far trololol etc), because, ya know, it's not unlikely you'll be shot, methinks. If Prome is on the scumteam I likely won't be shot. If you're on the scumteam I DEFINITELY won't be shot. If you're NOT on the scumteam I think it would be incredibly dumb to shoot me above you were I scum, but hey that's just me. | ||
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On January 31 2014 10:57 marvellosity wrote: how do you see austin's posting on the holy/toad slot this game Wave? Notably absent in recent times, I believe. Austin, the man makes a point. Care to elaborate? | ||
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Oh god the brainz question again? Can you remind me where that ridiculousness stems from? | ||
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On January 31 2014 11:01 marvellosity wrote: If I were simply to lynch 2 individuals right now, it would be Prome and Toad. I just need to get my head around this: to make them into a team. It doesn't make it impossible for sure, but it makes me frown thinking about it. It would be Prome's best play of the game I think. It could be a "i'm drawing attention to this so that I'm not drawing attention to this" sort of thing. Why is that hard to do as a scumteam? That's an easy townread, and says more about a scum Prome than it does about a mafia Holy/Toad. If anything it makes Holy's theoretical scumplay more impressive to set Prome up for that easy townread. | ||
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On January 31 2014 11:00 austinmcc wrote: That's more or less kita's question. I don't think it's a scum-marv comment. He's not scum because he said that. He's scum for general feel, for the brainz question, for his willingness to sit in the backseat this game EVEN AS THE GAME GOES TO ENDGAME (look at foolishness's posts on kita/toad/prome, kita's post on Sandroba's willingness to bus, and compare that to anything that marv has put forth). That comment just made me go look harder at his D1 voting, and also just...fight with him about it but it's not a town/scum battleground. He just got really bristly and I don't like the bristliness, or the fact that there's no ground given by either of us over whether the comment allows for a D3/D1 difference. It's a long time back, but in Movie Mini marv gets to mid/middish game and goes nuts trying to hunt a scum roleblocker because that's the only way for town to POSSIBLY win. In champions he has a burst of activity in late midgame, trying to get things on the right track for town. Even when marv isn't LEADING, marv wants to SOLVE the game. We're one day from endgame and marv still wasn't even convinced on prome, for the longest time today, and he's still not voting and doesn't appear to be fully convinced. Foolishness and Kita put in legwork, I ... opened LX in another tab and have not looked at it much, and marv is just content to fret over who might or might not be scum. Except not really, because he's not taking any stances, he's not burst of activity-ing. He's just sort of here to say that maybe some folks are mafia. ....then why continue to push it? >.< As for the rest, yup, I get it and have gotten it all game. It's not a really far cry from marv's towngame though but maybe this is what was enough to set off my radar earlier in the game? I also have to go look at a couple of specific points during the game where I said 'This is town-marv,' and re-evaluate to see if the reason for those was good enough. | ||
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On January 31 2014 11:07 marvellosity wrote: This post is grossly unfair. I believed Foolish was mafia (and was the first not to dally after his epic posts) and the game was built around that. And I pushed it and I got Foolish lynched like I wanted, that was to be my crowning glory this game, and I damn well made sure it happened. Except he was town and everything fell around me and how I viewed the game simply didn't really exist anymore. Pretty much I don't feel bad for being a bit unsure today in light of this. Pretty sure you're being pretty bad and wrong with this whole post because of this. But there's notably someone who else who had viewed the game as 'all wrong' from the start, and he started to re-evaluate early on. Hell even I started to re-evaluate Foolishness before he was lynched, because that is what townies do. I'm not saying everything austin pointed out here screams scum, but there are problems with your play here, and those problems ARE fair. Especially in considering how a lot of the competing thoughts and opinions were shut down that maybe would have made 'the way you view the game' a little less rigid and thus prevent things from 'falling down around you.' | ||
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On January 31 2014 11:09 austinmcc wrote: ? As far as what I think about the toad slot? NUMBER ONE THOUGHT - HE'S TOWN SO I DON'T CARE NUMBER TWO THOUGHT - His response to me asking what he found scummy about marv is VERY townie to me. Why? The final scum NEEDS a mislynch. He NKs someone, he needs a mislynch between the remaining two. The final scum needs to be painting people as scummy, and CONVINCINGLY so. All he has to do is convince Guy A that Guy B is scum, at least more than Guy B can convince Guy A that final scum is scum. Toad, when asked what mafia agenda (i hated using agendas and I'm using agenda as plural here) marv has pushed, doesn't make anything up. He doesn't go FIND places where marv has encouraged votes on townies, taken mafia stances, whatever whatever. He doesn't make any attempt to bolster a case against marv. He just says marv has been pushing him and THAT is a scummy agenda. I find toad town. If he's mafia, he just has to keep me convinced you or marv is mafia. And he put ZERO effort into painting marv as mafia. That is, to me, the opposite of what mafia would have responded to that question with. If he were mafia, he had a chance to make his endgame SLIGHTLY easier, and he utterly failed to take it in a dismissive way. NUMBER THREE THOUGHT - HOLY CRAP HOW DOES HE NOT KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE LEFT IN THE GAME WE ARE 1 DAY FROM ENDGAME AND HE'S JUST...BARELY FOLLOWING ALONG? HOW CAN THIS BE? NUMBER FOUR THOUGHT - As mentioned before, the times I've seen scum toad, he's gotten himself caught EARLY, because he does silly things or he's too outspoken. The scumToad that I know LOVES to cause chaos, be very visible, essentially sac himself to fuck with the thread. In Chrono Trigger he was very visible early. In Pokemon PTP he was apparently visible early, I replaced into the game after he'd already died, but he was a D1 or D2 death iirc. Toad here is NOT causing chaos. He's doing...very little. And he's not the last guy left. Up until recently, toad was more suspicious than prome. If THEY are a mafia team together, I would except mafia Toad to be unable to resist the desire to just fuck with the thread, cause chaos, and try to set prome up. It's not like everyone isn't slightly suspicious of everyone in this game, it would have taken very little work to just push everyone and everything. But instead, he's just passive and often a non-factor. That's not the scumtoad I know. Unless extremely conclusive (like that brilliant kita-->sandroba find recently) I don't like looking to meta so I'm not really taking into account how 'scumtoad usually plays the game.' I think the kind of play that would benefit the scumteam the most right now is exactly what they've been doing; have one active member to do the legwork (ie marv/you/me) and have one sit back in the shadows and avoid shit (toad/prome). Now obviously the prevailing theory is marv/prome so this works nicely, but Toad and any other one of us could technically fit just as well, depending on whose viewpoint we're standing at. I don't think Toad NEEDS to push an 'agenda' at this point, and even then, pushing an agenda (if marv is in fact scum) doesn't seem to be doing the scumteam much good anyway. Not fantastic reasons imo...what's the one where he doesn't know how many people are left? | ||
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On January 31 2014 11:12 austinmcc wrote: I push it because we seem to fight a bunch and we both always want to be right. In this case, I think the statement is a blanket statement. Not a D3 vs D1 thing, no room for error, "Are you lynching? If yes, lynch strongest read." He is saying this applies on D3 but not D1. ALL I REALLY WANT IS FOR HIM TO SAY "YUP, MY COMMENT SHOULD BE AMENDED TO SAY THAT THIS APPLIES FROM D2/D3 ONWARDS It's not even about votes or anything. It's just an absolutely stupid fight over whether marv believes in the statement as written, or in that statement as amended. So this has nothing to do with marv's alignment then? Did it have something to do with his alignment at some point? Marv sure seems to think the argument has a thread-relevant point beyond being a stupid fight. | ||
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You sure as hell better care then. | ||
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On January 31 2014 11:16 marvellosity wrote: btw, brilliant austin. toad is town because "he's not doing anything and he's not pushing a case on his mafiaread in any way". Wonderful. Nah marv, I see his point. I was pretty tempted to be lazy as fuck for the rest of the day, not even bother doing my read and waiting until Prome flips red to start working. It's not like anything particularly interesting is going to happen before then. | ||
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On January 31 2014 11:18 marvellosity wrote: Anyway screw you all for being active right about the time I need to be in bed. 2:20 so I am heading there immediately. kk will you be around to talk tomorrow? I will actually be pretty active for most of the day up until usual time pre-deadline. | ||
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On January 31 2014 11:37 austinmcc wrote: I was already fully decided on Toad so I didn't care much about Foolishness's post on Toad. But....since some of the early comments on Prome seem to have gotten lost in the aether, Foolishness has a whole bit on why HE thinks toad is town, and also Foolishness didn't flip mafia. Maybe it does something for people, maybe it doesn't, but you can trust that post more now than you could when you thought Foolishness was mafia. lol austin your reads are cray cray, you're going to have to teach me how to explain retarded reads so when I make them people don't think I'm scum for it. As far as marv pooping on you from space, I remember agreeing with him at the time too about the 'brainz' thing, but I suppose you have a small point regarding the timing and the fact that marv sort of dropped it at an odd time. I don't really value that as a scumtell nearly as much as you do though, because I feel that's just a sort of a 'marvy' thing to do when he thinks something is dumb and he's re-reading parts of the thread. You can keep your reads though. Have fun with them. | ||
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On January 31 2014 12:02 austinmcc wrote: Does the genesis of my townread on Toad make...more sense? I know me going "it reminded me of this other feeling i had this one time" is not a good basis to convince anyone of marv. But I don't think my thoughts on Toad are ridiculous, except maybe the final bit on brainz, but I find that shorthand to refer to the whole thing. I didn't have as much of a problem with your Toadread as marv did, so let him respond to you. I'm decently okay with it for now, but again, in the middle of massive re-read so if I have more questions for you that go back on anything I've said, don't be surprised. | ||
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Can your present be to win this game with me rather than on your own? | ||
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On February 01 2014 03:42 Toadesstern wrote: I kind of have the feeling that mafia is going to shoot me and have you two + marv in lylo considering WoS' comments about you recently. Can that be your birthday present from me? 48 hours of argueing with WoS about why you might or might not be town sounds fun to me. Good thing I don't have to go through that. Yeah fuck you, I'm not looking forward to it either, but I hope you realize your chances are just as good at being stuck there with me imo. | ||
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So disappointing. Why are there no baby seals yet? | ||
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I actually really like that he wrote that because it basically means exactly what Toad was talking about (and I've been thinking for ages) is true. Hell Prome even referred to me as 'one of the weaker players' earlier on in the thread---I imagine they're banking their entire game now on me fucking up somehow, and they figure I can be convinced one way or the other. And boy I'll tell ya, if there was one person who's pretty good at convincing me of stuff, it's marv. | ||
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You're the one putting so much effort in now and I'm sooo laaazzzyyy Can I call you town based on effort? + Show Spoiler + I know I actually can't 'cause it's you, Mr. PTP: Dr Who | ||
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On February 01 2014 04:52 austinmcc wrote: Next game I play with Toad, I just want to post a bunch of entirely irrelevant anime pictures, or ones with fake captions. +1 | ||
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On February 01 2014 05:13 kitaman27 wrote: DONT BELIEVE HIM! I CAN TOTALLY WIN WITH TOWN NOW THAT I'VE GOT THE TARDIS!!! + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120204130848/tardis/images/b/be/Series5weepingangels.jpg)  | ||
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On February 01 2014 05:22 austinmcc wrote: Anyway, wave. You're feeling lazy, there's a thing for you to look at. You were the one that Foolishness had the scum --> townread on. Did YOUR opinion of Foolishness change when he swapped his stance on you? Either good or bad, did you adjust your read? Did it gives you pause about his scumminess? You mean the posts pre-his lynch where he swapped shit around? I wasn't so much convinced by those as I was by his effort and desire to actually converse right before he went down. Only then was I starting to be convinced. I don't think it's particularly difficult to fabricate a bunch of wrong reads throughout the game and then realize when you're in trouble to go back on all those reads, be apologetic, and give the 'right' reads, especially if you know the alignment of the people you're 'reading.' What I wonder the most about Foolishness's play right now in general is whether or not he's actually capable of that kind of analysis as scum (fake or real). If not, it's one of the primary reasons I kinda feel bad about lynching him because it means he put that massive effort into those posts and we just kinda scoffed at him---I sort of assumed that the legendary Foolishness WOULD be capable of doing that as scum. | ||
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On February 01 2014 05:41 Promethelax wrote: Guys, this is cute and all but it is a serious waste of your time. This game is over in 2.5 hours. WoS I'm not bothering to try to convince you because Toad refuses to be convinced, it isn't worth anyone's time for me to try. I'm heading out soon and just wanted to say: GG scum, sorry I didn't fight harder I played poorly and I'm pretty embarrassed about it. I wrote a poem about it for my shadow though which I'd like to share. I had such a nice post, it had links, it had quotes I wrote up some facts and I wrote up some things. The town it would have made king. I hit back on my browser unthinking. Now in bed straight whiskey I'm drinking. I'm undressed and depressed because at this game of mafia I'm stinking. So yeah, well played scum guys, sorry I sucked town guys. I really think the Foolishness lynch was terrible and sealed town's fate, looking back on it that day as well as the previous one were essentially wasted, we as a town got nothing out of those days and I feel really bad about my part in those them. Foolishness, VE, I'm sorry to both of you you really shouldn't have been lynched. I played poorly and this loss is on my shoulders. You're absolutely certain that it's me and Toad who are town? I still haven't heard much on myself from like...anyone as to why I'm town. Maybe Foolishness. | ||
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On February 01 2014 05:50 marvellosity wrote: If Wave is mafia, I'm going to stop playing mafia. That's all. Oh horseshit. What if I really was playing just this good of a scumgame? It's honestly not that hard if you simply abandon 'mafia agenda' and just pretend to be town and absorb all the risks that come with it. | ||
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On February 01 2014 05:54 marvellosity wrote: Yes it is. You're clueless. Don't "it's honestly not that hard" me, I've played 10 of the fuckers. Maybe I'm just better at scum than you then. | ||
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On February 01 2014 05:57 marvellosity wrote: I've never seen one mafia maintain the type of giving a shit and interest that you have over the last 3 cycles. So like austin said with his toad read, gonna keep on trucking with that until I'm proved wrong. Which is unlikely given I've played 60-70 mafia games or something. Challenge accepted. | ||
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On February 01 2014 06:09 austinmcc wrote: I assume there was more to it. And yeah, other people thought he was scummy. But: Foolishness is doing A, and is mafia for that Foolishness stops doing A, starts doing -A Silence Is smellz. Whether you had other reasons or not. Whether you had other reasons you didn't put in thread or not. Whether other people found him scummy or not. You specifically pointed out a thing he was doing, he did the entire opposite of that thing, and you continued to vote him and call him scummy with absolutely no mention of him doing the opposite of a thing you'd called him out on. | ||
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Rereading my own earlier Prome/VE cases and really liking them. Why in blue fuck did they get shot down so many times and so quickly? I do certainly notice a lot of the people under suspicion right now being very quick to be the ones to shoot me down based on things like 'hammers' and 'confirmed towniness.' Is there even a point to doing this really? Another interesting thing is Foolishness originally had me as town and Prome as scum way early on. Thinking of it now it seems way unlikely that a scum player would give that read early, flip flop on it entirely and then flip flop back again. Ugh was way too tunneled and angry with Foolishness---at Toad too to some degree. I gotta stop doing that when people make bullshit cases on me, even if it is a good way to get people to see me as town. | ||
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On January 28 2014 21:23 WaveofShadow wrote: Well I trust you guys to make the right decision come lynch then, my vote stays. If you're both mafia, welp o.O lol I am loving this re-read | ||
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On January 28 2014 22:06 marvellosity wrote: #distancing On January 28 2014 22:07 Promethelax wrote: #bigscumplays Double lol | ||
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I will say that you have some posts in there that completely preclude you from being scum, though I won't say which ones. #bigLYLOplays | ||
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On February 01 2014 06:38 austinmcc wrote: Nono. You're not mafia because of that. Most mafia teams should be chatting and interacting. But some don't. Just noting that you know to chat with scumbuddies and remind them of this. What? I don't understand what you wrote. | ||
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I'm just saying trying to look at it from an unbiased POV is difficult given the game state and general opinion right now. Austin, can you actually go look at those pages for me and see if you can see anything that I don't? (I think it starts on 111 or so?) Toad you too. Marv, well, I wish I could ask you to do the same but I suppose it kind of defeats the purpose. | ||
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Just saying. | ||
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On January 29 2014 07:32 marvellosity wrote: Not seeing that as a possibility right now. This is all too ridiculous. | ||
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Deadline rt now plz | ||
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Def ggs | ||
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And at the very least I wasn't mislynched Scum played this one extremely well imo; not a whole lot of blame to be placed here All around one of the best games I've played on TL I think. Need moar like it. Hopefully the people watching learned some stuff. ^^ | ||
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Nobody played a perfect game here, or even had reads good enough to be right at a crucial time. | ||
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Did Holy swapping out affect the game? I'm not trying to place any blame or anything here, just pondering hypotheticals. | ||
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One of my problems in not considering Toad later on was that the weak case he had on me essentially mirrored yours, Foolishness in some ways so when you flipped I firmly believed Prome was #1 and #2 could have been between marv or Toad. | ||
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On February 01 2014 08:48 Toadesstern wrote: things to remember though: Don't ever talk to WoS when you roll mafia unless you want to praise him. He got mad at me, he got mad at foolishness and he got mad at Austin, all people who poked him Ehhh I get unnecessarily angry when people make stupid cases on me. People can talk to me npnp. I have to stop doing that though. | ||
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On February 01 2014 09:01 marvellosity wrote: imo gonzaw was miles away from any line and the whole game was played with a very good atmosphere in general Completely agree with this. I'll continue to sing the praises of this game in general despite the loss and whatnot. | ||
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On February 01 2014 09:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I'd rather people didn't discuss it as it might become clear who received a lot of coaching and who didn't really use it much at all in the follow up, and players will have the same alignment as their coach. Okay, I wasn't sure about that. | ||
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On February 01 2014 12:12 DarthPunk wrote: Just a forewarning for the podcast. I'm pretty sure I call all of you bad. Nothing personal I still love you. I also say that marv made the town his bitch. Much love. <3 It's ok 'cause we call DP bad for calling everyone bad. | ||
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Foolishness had multiple cases on him throughout the game by me, kita, Prome? I think others as well. Edit: if town shadows win, can we take credit for it and then it'll be like we actually won? | ||
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On February 05 2014 02:37 Promethelax wrote: It is posts like that which make it impossible to be mad at Toad. Those kinds of posts are considerably less funny now that I have a guy of my own. | ||
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On February 06 2014 02:11 kushm4sta wrote: yeah im not getting banned again I don't even need to know what you said to further reinforce why I don't like you. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
Random thoughts: You have so much faith in meta it's astonishing to me. Somehow I get lumped into 'bullying the thread to get who I want lynched' with gonzaw and yet the D2 VE lynch.... Kita analysis was very interesting but I can't honestly be sure if you're right because you went about it the right way or because you 'just happened to be right.' | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On February 06 2014 11:05 Foolishness wrote: If you read my posts you notice that it doesn't just boil down to doing behavior analysis, but it's combining the analysis with their current thread posting. My analysis posts always have a big section looking at their posts from the current game without regard to their past behavior, just analyzing if they made the post from a town or mafia point or view (what were they accomplishing when they wrote this post). That has nothing to do with looking at past behavior. There is no technique or rule that will get you to know if someone is town or mafia 100% of the time. If there was such a thing then the game wouldn't be fun to play in the first place. It's not just one thing that makes someone mafia but a combination of different aspects of their play. Finding mafia means building a case against a person, not just looking out for one specific thing they do or don't do. Behavior analysis aids in the case building and allows you to either strengthen (or weaken) your case against someone. It is not an absolute way to find a mafia, and it never will be (nor have I ever claimed it is). Of course it's going to be wrong sometimes, and of course I'm going to be wrong when using it sometimes (either cause I misused the tool or it wasn't the proper tool to use in the first place). Just in the same way you're going to be wrong when analyzing someone purely on their current posts in the thread. People will always surprise you and this is no different. It's okay to be wrong as long as you know why you're wrong because that's what will really make you better. Again, it is a tool to aid in finding mafia, not the absolute method for catching scum. That it why it is always combined with their current posting and thread agenda. One or the other is not sufficient in itself. Your disbelief in it is a big reason that's preventing your play from drastically improving. I'm not saying that to be mean or criticize you or anything like that, just letting you what I see from your town play over a variety of games. If you were to use this tool in aid of your analysis and posting style that you already have your success rate would improve. And I mean, even if you want to disbelieve in it that's fine but it is clearly a process that does work (or at least have strong benefits). There is a reason that there are plenty of good players here that are known for being good that do this stuff, such as myself and Kitaman, and then also older veteran players like Ver, Qatol, MrBabyHands. Even players who aren't big on it still use it to reinforce their ideas. Marvellosity is not a big analysis player, but he'll still back up his claims and use the information to achieve his goal with his posting. Mafia is a game where the only limitation is your own imagination. As you said, there aren't real "objective" ways to go about reading/posting. Instead it's about the patterns of reading/posting or building a case that are good and bad. For example the General Guide To Mafia never instructs you to do X or Y if you are town or mafia. Rather it's about following a pattern of reading/posting/making a case (prove to the town you are innocent, make all your posts meaningful, use your vote in a way that gathers information. Or organize your team in such a way, balance your survival with your agenda, make your night kills in such a way that helps you). And that's what makes the game so great. I really like this post. Foolishness confirmed town | ||
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